The prime minister’s commissioner for Roma affairs László Teleki thanked to U.S. ambassador April H. Foley on Wednesday that the U.S. authorities had closed down a Hungarian far-right news portal that was run on an American server.
The Hungarian authorities had repeatedly asked the U.S. to clamp down on kuruc.info, infamous for inciting hatred against Hungary’s Roma and Jewish communities and violating personal rights and the fundamental values of the democratic republic.
Traffic on the site, which had been registered in Arizona at the end of 2005, was first cut off on July 5. A few days later, the site was back again on a server in Arizona but the U.S. authorities had closed it down again.
Teleki and Foley discussed the situation of the Roma in Hungary, as well as government efforts to integrate the Roma into mainstream society and fight against discrimination.
Teleki also thanked Foley for her work to promote Roma organisations and improve their social status.
At least we can see who are the enemies of freedom:
The USA and the roma leaders.
Never ask or thank anyone for censorship. Ignoring a problem and silencing people who talk about it will not make it go away. Our government has no solutions, but they are getting pretty good at blaming others. They spend more of our money on propaganda than anything useful.
Maybe Kuruc.info went over the limit in their anti-everything and everyone efforts, and they didn’t seem to offer much of a guidance for those in need of that sort of thing, but at least they reported stories left out of the government-sponsored media, they had a collection of non-PC jokes, and some of their articles and language were amusing. At least the site was a balance for Nepszabadsag and other Gyurcsany-friendly rags.
It really doesn’t matter what was posted on kuruc.info, censoring it is a very bad sign. Words should be fought with words, not censorsip.
I don’t like leftist websites, but I would never think of denying their rights to tell their side of the story. Kuruc.info was a shame, but not nearly as bad as the actions of the US and Hungarian government abusing their powers to remove the site. No one should be very happy about this.
I completly agrre with you Stan…..these actions are the first signs of a dictatorship…
All hate sites such as kuruc.info should be shut down. Period.
In my opinion it is a little bit more difficult Stan.
Because Kuruk.info was not closed because what they said if not what they did: and it was to post the names and adress of the next targets of the attacks of the extreme rigth. And those attacks really happened (remember the two molotov cocktails at Gay bars this month).
So they are free to say whatever they want, they are not free to finger targets for attacks, and that´s why they were closed.
I´m totally against censorship and all this issue makes me to think were the limits of free speech are (throuing eggs is a good example).
I don´t have the answer yet, but i know that it is not fear to give instructions for lynching in any way, and that is not a way of free speech. Free Speech is something i stand up for as long as i am, and i deffend as much as i can, but is difficult so say were the limits are (if it has limits, another good topic to discuss about).
Barak
Agree with Barak.
Freedom of expression has never meant that you can say everything. This limitation is not only for political reasons, there are other reasons also – like personal and business reason.
Exactly where the limits are is a moving target. It is decided by the current consensus in a society. Due to this there will always be and must always be a discussion where the limits are.
Urging or in other way aiding people to do something obviously illegal has always been a crime. It has obviously not so much to do with “freedom of expression”.
This talk of dictatorship just shows how far you guys are from reality today. There is not a straight line between the US closes down an unimportant and distasteful website to a Communist Dictatorship is restored. The kuruc website was never important in the current trends in Hungarian politics, it was a fringe operation and will stay like that. If the current Gov’t would shut down Fidesz’ websites I would agree with you guys, but that will not happen. There will be a free General Election no later than 2010, but maybe sooner.
Funny just that the original Kuruc-band was a multi-ethnic group, far away from what this website ever stood for.
Stan,
“I don’t like leftist websites”
Can you give links to any “leftist” websites propagating class hatred in Hungary?
Adrian,
I don’t normally search for or bookmark leftist websites, except for Nepszava and Nepszabadsag, but that’s not the point. I would not censor or remove any websites for extreme political views, regardless of which side they are on.
Even if it was anti-Magyar, pro-Trianon, publishing the addresses of Tiszta Magyars in Romania “urging” the clean Romanians to show what they think about them?
Stan,
“Nepszava and Nepszabadsag”,
About as “leftist” as the New York Times or the Guardian. This is mainstream centre left, hardly comparable with kuruc for considerations of balance of opinion.
Adrian,
For your information, the NYT is owned by jews.
I just found some really disturbing filth for you, far worse than kuruc.info. Enjoy:
http://liberalizmus.hu
http://nacivadasz.blogspot.com/
Stan,
It is nice that we can count on you for protecting/defending these sites right to expression, as you have done with kuruc.info.
liberalizmus.hu is hardly an “organization.” It is owned by a private person:
——————————————-
domain: liberalizmus.hu
org: Private person
org: org_name_hun: Baksa Kroly
hun-id: 0991482353
admin-c: 2000481315
tech-c: 2000290138
zone-c: 2000290138
nameserver: ns.mw1.hu
nameserver: ns.mw2.hu
registered: 2006.02.10 00: 10: 53
changed: 2008.02.26 08: 29: 13
registrar: 1000304434
person: Baksa Kroly
address: Mrcius 15. u. 76. 1/3
address: 6000 Kecskemt
address: HU
phone: 70/5013339
fax-no:
hun-id: 2000481315
person: Varga Zoltn
address: Martinovics u. 13.
address: 3527 Miskolc
address: HU
phone: 36 30 6161616
fax-no: 36 46 416426
e-mail: domain@microware.hu
hun-id: 2000290138
person: Varga Zoltn
address: Martinovics u. 13.
address: 3527 Miskolc
address: HU
phone: 36 30 6161616
fax-no: 36 46 416426
hun-id: 2000290138
org: org_name_eng: Microware Hungary Ltd.
org: org_name_hun: Microware Hungary Kft. (Registrar)
address: Martinovics u. 13.
address: 3527 Miskolc
address: HU
phone: 36 30 6366246
fax-no: 36 46 416426
hun-id: 1000304434
Joe,
We all know how to lookup whois data, no need to copy it here. We also know that an organization may register its domain under any real or false name.
Add to this the fact that I never called the liberalism website an “organization”. I used the word for the nazihunter group.
Any other mistakes you would like to share?
This is a complex issue with many different aspects so let’s delineate the subject one by one.
1.The US First Amendment of the Constitutions ensure the ABSOLUTE freedom of speech.
Viking your statement such as, “Freedom of expression has never meant that you can say everything.” is false.
Go to the American websites like:
The American National Socialist Workers Party (NAZI)
Communist Party USA – http://www.cpusa.org/
Socialist Worker – http://socialistworker.org/
Revolutionary Communist Party, USA – http://revcom.us/avakian/(Maoist)
There is an avalanche of hate speech on these publications contrary to your naive belief.
…………………………………………..
2. Under spotlight:
Microsoft and Yahoo have both signed an agreement with the Chinese Government, which pushes a desire for the two companies to record the identities of bloggers and censored content. Eighteen other web companies have signed this agreement as well.
As a result one Chinese blogger got 10 years in jail because Yahoo divulged his identity.
…………………………………………..
The removal of kuruc.info could ONLY happen because those people had no access to good constitutional lawyer.
Joe: Your mind is formed by the Bolshevik indoctrination you are longing for the good old AVO, and the Reeducation Camps.
I say farewell because I am apparently censored.
Bela, considering your comment is now online, I’m guessing you automatically tripped the spam filter with the links in your comments.
Talking about the USA, two things I’d like to add:
1. The First Amendment applies only to US citizens. Everyone else is a “potential terrorist” in this age of paranoia. I don’t think the US authorities bothered to translate the kuruc site, they just believed what the Hungarian government told them and shut it down.
2. Groups like the Hungarian Guard are less dangerous than boy scouts. In the USA you’ll find many well armed military style groups. They start shooting AK-47s and M-16s as soon as they are big enough to hold one. Lucky for the US, they also have a Second Amendment. It helps protecting the First.
Most Hungarians are unarmed, and they can be treated like sheep. As they say:
“Democracy is two wolves and a sheep, deciding what’s for dinner”.
Stan,
Are we suppose to interpret your post as Hungary would be a “true Democracy” if the people were armed?
In Europe I believe the country which has most weapons per 1.000 inhabitants is Albania. Makes for a good example.
Yet again the double US standards policy! They should really keep their noses out of other peoples business. Considering that the KKK is as active today as ever and in the US you can find as many Gay, Jewish and anti Black hate sites to fill your hard drive,it is absolute nonsense that they would help in any way to close a single Hungarian site!
Very amusing
Viking,
No, I did not say that guns alone can solve problems. They can help though…
As for your Albania remark: Switzerland is on the same level as Albania. Obviously the number of guns per capita is only one side of the coin.
The Swiss learn how to use weapons, and required to have one at home. They don’t have a large standing army, but they know how to defend themselves in case something happens.
Guns and morons is a bad combination. Guns and responsible citizens seems to work.
John Simpson:
If you are privy to the American political system you should know that every – I repeat – every controversial issue used to end up at the Supreme Court as the ultimate arbiter.
Had kuruc.info hired a group of layers their removal from the server would have been thrown out by the court as violation of the 1st. Amendment.
But it could costs $ millions….
Bela:
That is the problem, when the protection of free speech cost millions to uphold. It is outside the scope of the average citizen!
John Simpson:
You’re right, but this still the beginning: wait when the Marxist mulatto Hussein takes over!
Stan,
“For your information, the NYT is owned by jews.” So….? Please – for a laugh – give your missing premise, I think your conclusion is obvious.
“I just found some really disturbing filth for you, far worse than kuruc.info. Enjoy:”
OK, I don’t have a particular penchant for interracial sex, but why is this more disturbing than images of white heterosexuals on the job? I really am beginning to believe those redneck stories.
In general, though I am quite like the idea of “make love, not war”
PS seeing you have an interest in homosexual porn, I discovered in this week’s Economist that it was being produced in 1420′s and made up some of the volumes of good King Matthias’s famous library.
Adrian,
Your attention Deficit Disorder once again prevented you from getting the point. Did you read the articles on both sites, or stopped after looking at the pictures?
For some reason you don’t want to tell us where you live, so I’m guessing here. YOu are obviously not Hungarian, not even European, so you must be Russian. No worries, it could be worse…
Dammit…Ignore the typos in my previous posts. I have a new Hungarian keyboard and keep hitting the wrong keys.
Stan: “Guns and responsible citizens seems to work” (in reference to Switzerland).
So, still there – the explanation for the stable Swiss democracy is that everyone has a weapon? Interesting theory, it has naturally nothing to do with that they have been able to create a closed environment, that attracted a lot of money with dubious origin.
You and Bela could probably find a lot of old “Commie”-money there, stolen by the leaders before the Communist Paradise went down the drain. You obviously have no problem with that.
Other stable democracies, like the Nordic countries has very hard weapon licenses, so I do not see the connection.
Viking,
You are pathetic. Would it be such an intellectual leap for you to get the point?
We’re talking about armed citizens and not shady bank deals. Never mind. You’re no fun any more.
Back to school with you.
Viking,
Care to exclude me from you Swiss related discussion with Stan.
The disgusting Swiss role in hiding and holding ill- gotten money is public knowledge. What is your point in this regard?
Bela, No problem.
I am just trying to really understand what Stan means with the sentence “Most Hungarians are unarmed, and they can be treated like sheep”.
Stan likes to throw out sentences like this, with open ends. What does he mean, that Hungary would be better if the Hungarians were armed? As usual he just ducks and disappears.
i couldnt find any address for the owner of this website can u
Stan,
sorry must have overlooked this:
“For some reason you don’t want to tell us where you live, so I’m guessing here. You are obviously not Hungarian, not even European, so you must be Russian”
I am English, born in 1966, I moved to Hungary in 1993 and have spent only 3 of the following years elsewhere. Including one year in Russia, possibly in the worst in my life, it was an education. My wife is Hungarian, we have three children who were all born in Hungary and are Hungarian citizens.
I live in a small town, where I teach in a secondary school. My wife has asked me not to disclose the town as it will immediately disclose my full identity. Knowing my politiical opinions, she is frightened of far-right reprisals against us – a few years ago a local MIEP leader told her that our children were not really Hungarian. I think an attack is more likely to come as a result of the things I say in class rather than in this forum, but is still very unlikely, but I think I should respect her wishes.
Equal disclosure would be appreciated: is your wife worried about far-left reprisals?
Adrian,
Thank you for answering my question. I suppose you speak some level of Hungarian after all those years you spent here. You can listent to the speeches of our fearless leaders, talk to people, read Hungarian papers, etc. Unless you’re in some way depend on the current regime, why would you sympathize with them?
Dammit. I hit the submit buttone before I finished. Ignore my grammatical errors in previous post. So where was I?
Viking don’t know any Hungarian, so he reads Gyurcsany speeches in translation. He’s also part of the problem, that’s why he’s defending the system.
So, Adrian, what’s your excuse for it?
Stan,
OK, I don’t understand Hungarian to anything like the level you suggest, I can get about town and chat a bit in the pub.
I don’t in any general sense support the Government: I’m a conservative and happier with the MDF than the MSZP. I despise the SZDSZ. Gyurcsány has caused no end of trouble with his political misjudgement, however his concentrated push to collect taxes has my appreciation. I believe in strong instuitions, and a strong state needs to enforce its laws and collects its taxes. If you had been given a link to HS earlier you would have seen this summary of my political position:
http://esbalogh.typepad.com/hungarianspectrum/2008/06/anniversary.html#comment-120631942
I only need to add that my biggest political worry is that after the next election, Orbán is going to be negotiateing the constitutiuonal changes with the far right in his own party rather than the MSZP.
Adrian,
You say that Gyurcsany’s “concentrated push to collect taxes has my appreciation”.
There are several problems with that.
First, taxes are very high, and wages are very low. Not paying taxes has become a matter of survival for many people. It’s a tough choice when you have to decide to pay your rent or your taxes. At the same time you see the government wasting billions every day.
Second, this government will happily give tax breaks to multis, but don’t give a break to small businesses when they hit hard times, and need it most.
Third, you don’t have to be an economic genius to know that lowering taxes will attract businesses. Last year more than 10,000 SMEs decided to move out of Hungary. A reasonable tax reform could turn this around. More businesses, more jobs, more taxes, better economy, happy people. How profoundly stupid our government must be to ignore that?
Fourth, when taxews are reasonable, then it’s time to put some effort into enforcement. People will soon recognize that paying taxes beats worrying about the APEH.
Gyurcsany prefers show pieces such as the Mercedes plant and the EU Innovation Center.
THese look good on his blog and his 200 million government portal. Few people take the trouble to look at the details. The Mercedes plant will provide around 2,000 jobs, will cost us 40 billion. The Innovation Center pays no taxes or rent, and we pay the salaries of everyone who works there. None of these solve our long-term problems.
Good stuff, Stan,
First, I have to say that I am sympathetic to your particular take on the impact of taxation on small businesses. I understand that you spent 20 years working in the US where the tax-culture is far less corrupt. I wouldn’t want to get involved in business in Hungary, because I can’t imagine how anyone with an anglo-sphere level of probity or sense of civic responsibility could operate a business profitably. A small businessman has to cheat if all his competitors cheat. That culture has to be changed before Hungary can be anything more than a Banana republic sponsored by the EU.
(cont.)
Good Stuff, Stan, (cont.)
Yes, taxes are very high, and wages are very low. I pay 53% marginal taxes on my teachers salary of 150,000 Ft a month. But I disagree with you that “Not paying taxes has become a matter of survival” for many people. My colleagues mostly have a standard of living that involves their own homes, one or two cars and foreign holidays. I know these things simply aren’ affordable on their official salaries. This paying tax only on your official salary is true for nearly all professionally qualified Hungarians, Doctors, lawyers artitects etc. Similary, small business people regard employment taxes and AFA as optional, only yesterday I was offered work in a private language school, cash in hand – they would “find” invoices to cover the cash outlay. Small business people push the people they employ into tax evasion by offering them deals to cover the minimum wage and toping it up with cash in Hand. There is only one group of individuals paying the full amount of taxes due on employment that is employees of the multinational companies – which explains both why the government is so keen to attract them, and why they have to be given tax breaks so that they can compete.
(cont.)
Good Stuff, Stan, (cont.)
You completely underestimate the level of understated wealth in this country. I have seen more economic hardship in the UK or in the media coverage of Katrina in the US than I have seen in Hungary, accept as it affects the gypsies who I have seen living in “African” conditions. You say “it’s a tough choice when you have to decide to pay your rent or your taxes.” Yes, but its a choice that effects very few people here.
Lowering taxes will only help small businesses if they are being paid in the first place. But there is not an economic crisis in Hungary, there is a government finance crisis. The government must generate more revenue or reduce public services, seeing that the referendum this year showed Hungarians have no appetite for cuts in public services, Gyurcsány has rightly gone in the only direction available to him. This may even create a window for tax reform. But it is unlikely to be realised because politicians of every political stripe are more interested in denying him the opportunity for successful tax reform than givng Hungary a break. This is another instance of the reason why I want constititional reform, under the current system, Hungary can only be governed through a coalition.
(cont.)
Good Stuff, Stan, (cont.)
“Fourth, when taxes are reasonable, then it’s time to put some effort into enforcement. People will soon recognize that paying taxes beats worrying about the APEH.” Perhaps, but meanwhile the government deficit is causing Hungary to have much higher interest rates than need be, people are moving out of the forint into the Euro, even the yen – this denies the government a monetary policy, and in the long term the ability to negotiate the terms on which it adopts the Euro.
It also better for Gyurcsány to do this way round, offering the carrot of lower taxes after the stick of greater enforcement, in time for the next election.
Adrian,
There’s one major problem with your argument, it punishes decent, honest people. When taxation is based on the premise that everyone has a second, undeclared source of income, then it not only approves the practice, but also forces everyone to find ways to cheat on their taxes.
This is not the way out of the mess, only makes things worse. Average Joe, who makes 150,000 a month, should be able to get by on what’s left after taxes, and take it easy, instead of working a second cash-job. In the current system he doesn’t have a choice.
The goverment should stop wasting money on unnecessary and overpriced projects, cut corruption, etc. Balancing the budget by cutting basic services while spending on everything else is not sustainable for ever. The current government will not change, we need a new one, the sooner the better.
Stan,
The problem is not with my argument, the problem is with the taxation culture in Hungary. I agree with you that the system does punish “decent, honest people”. (But I remind you that by Anglo-saxon or Nordic standrds there are very few of those.) It has done at least since my arrival in Hungary in ’93 as a consulting management accountant when I discovered first hand how steep the employment taxes were in this country. But none of the Governments until this one, including Orbán’s have done anything about it.
My argument is that because of the international credit crisis, and because the Hungarian polity doesn’t want to see any trimming of public services, Gyurcsány has to tackle the issue by collecting more taxes. Just like so many times before decent, honest people will have to ride it out – losers of the democractic system. Something similar is going on in the States and the UK now, via the housing downturn, people who lied on their mortgage aplications to borrow more than they could afford are being bailed out ultimately by taxpayers funds.
Adrian,
We don’t agree on a few issues.
You believe that most of the money is spent on satisfying the population’s hunger for freebees.
In order to keep up with the unreasonably high demands of the people, our good government must collect unreasonably high taxes.
I don’t think that’s true. The most money is spent or wasted by bad management of the country’s assets, giving away high salaries to party buddies, “consulting fees”, idiotic projects, buying votes and friends, paying off enemies, propaganda, and of course moving money to party coffers and own pockets.
On top of that, the government spends 150 billion a year to multies to keep them happy. Multies generate 90 percent of the profit, but only employ 10 percent of the workforce, and pay little or no taxes, and of course the profit goes out of the country. Why not support Hungarian businesses with that money. More employment, more taxes and at least some of that profit would stay here to create more jobs.
I grew up in Hungary under the Kadar regime. It was also an era of wasteful and incompetent leadership, but healthcare, education and social services were much better funded, and the only homeless I knew was homeless by choice. Aside for the “freedom”, which is really not a budget item, average working people were better off.
I’m not saying that it was great, after all I left the country for political reasons, but I find it curious why the same level of basic services are so far out of reach today.
Adrian,
We don’t agree on a few issues.
Is this the beginning of a friendship? Adrian and Stan only disagree on a few things…. In other words, according to Stan the man, they agree on most other things. Nice.
Stan,
“In order to keep up with the unreasonably high demands of the people, our good government must collect unreasonably high taxes”
NO! I beleive that probably since Socialism until now the various governments have turned a blind eye to widespread tax evasion, managaing to fill their coffers by setting unreasonably high rates on those sources of revenue they can collect. To quote the Economist, “Some 20% of workers pay four-fifths of income tax. Employers pay over 30% in social-security contributions, on top of taxes paid by employees, and the tax rules keep changing. Many Hungarians game the system: the black economy may account for 18% of GDP.” In my opinion; “Many Hungarians” should read most Hungarians; the 20% of workers will be those working for the multinationals; and 18% is a very conservative estimate.
Adrian,
Bush, Merkel and Gyurcsany are talking about little people.
Bush says: In the USA avergae people make $3,000 a month, they can live on $2,000, we don’t care what they spend the rest.
Ms. Merkel says: German workers make 2,000 Euros a month, they can live on 1,500, we don’t care what they spend the remaining 500.
Gyurcsany says: Hungarians take home 50,000 a month, living costs 80,000, we don’t care where they get the missing 30,000.
Stan,
I’m not sure how your last comment is connected to our argument – which I think is about how Hungarian tax culture should be reformed.
As regards the little people; firstly I reiterate the main reason low income employees are evading taxes is because those are the only deals being offered by small employers. People who I know who are working on the minimum + cash basis are a receptionist at a vet’s, market stall vendors and waiters. All these people are desperate to get a fully declared salary, because their existing arrangements don’t enable them to buy into Hungary’s generous pension system. I think I agree with you in that Gyurcsány is not interested in their illicit 30,000 a month. For a good economic reason – tax audits are expensive.
Again sticking to the realm of personal experience, I am acquainted with small scale wine producer who has recently done time for evading VAT or excise on his exports. And my personal favourite – the fitted kitchen people in a town even smaller than mine, who have recently not been able to buy their daughter a house in ours. The reason for this is that they are nervous that any large purchases will attract the attention of APEH, so until the heat dies down they’ve retired to their holiday home and yacht in Croatia. As long as it remains economically viable to pursue these cheats, I hope it doesn’t.
Stan: Gyurcsany says: Hungarians take home 50,000 a month, living costs 80,000, we don’t care where they get the missing 30,000.
Obfuscation is no substitute for real debate. But, I suppose when you have no idea of the political situation, any trick will do. Way to go, Stan!
Stan: “Multies generate 90 percent of the profit, but only employ 10 percent of the workforce, and pay little or no taxes, and of course the profit goes out of the country.”
Well, if we look at the facts: “pay little or no taxes” let me quote from RealDeal:’data collected by the APEH’s Priority Taxpayers Directorate (KAIG) have revealed that so-called priority taxpayers pay one-third of all taxes in Hungary. Over 630 companies belong to the KAIG, the majority of which are multinationals, with most others being financial institutions and insurers.
According to last year’s data, these firms contributed 37.2% of the income tax and 39.7% of the corporate tax collected in Hungary. Their share is nearly the same (39.6%) in terms of collected VAT, 29.1% in the case of social insurance contributions and 32% for employer and employee contributions. In addition, nearly 60% of the “innovation tax” collected arrives from KAIG taxpayers.’
I know that Stan has read this because he posted in that thread, but obviously he did not understand it.
Stan is just to lazy to work and want the State to support his ‘business ventures’, that is why is pissed off on the ‘multis’.
Viking,
You are wrong as usual.
I used independent data, you used your beloved lying government’s numbers.
Unlike you, I don’t depend on the government or any political parties. I gave up my business in Hungary decades ago, and have no intention to start another one any time soon.
I simply hate to watch the country being destroyed by crooks, that’s all. No personal gains from supporting or opposing parties and trends. I’m just an average superhero in the battle of good vs. evil. Now you know.
Stan: I’m just an average superhero in the battle of good vs. evil. Now you know.
…and delusional, to boot!
Adrian D:
You should not omit from the taxation tread the exorbitant sales taxes which are levied in full even on non tangible services. What you fail to understand – being Westerner – is that unlike in the West where people have a positive perception (at least in theory) as per their governing system, whereas in the East people consider the gov. as their enemy with which they are at perpetual war.
Kipling once said “East is East, West is West”
Easterners are lacking of the cool, rational way of reasoning, emotional, sometimes capricious responses imbue their reflexes.
Cheating is a tool to take on the evil gov. and it’s morally justified for not doing so you would come across as an idiot.
People install clever devices to slow down the electric or gas meters, all my friends do it, I did it too. The people’s mind is spinning in high, creative gear when the question is how to fend for themselves.
And these are the same people who blame the Roma for their problems. Yeah, right!
Viking
thanks for the numbers, it’s consistent with the numbers given in the Economist and my own personal experience. I worked for an American mulitnational for eight years, two of those in Hungary. There are several reasons why the multinational employees contribute fully. Firstly, multinationals are always vulnerable to economic nationalism, so they try to avoid bad publicity of this sort. Secondly, they generally remunerate well compared to local wages, meaning it is not necessary for the employees to seek extra income. Thirdly, they have “no moonlighting” clauses in their terms of employment, and I have seen them enforced in Hungary.
Stan,
Its a shame for you to go back to mud slinging, and dismissing information contrary to your argument as lies. Instead, why not post your independent data and its source?
Béla,
“in the East people consider the gov. as their enemy with which they are at perpetual war.”
I don’t agree that this is East-West divide, I expect tax compliance in Singapore is very high. But I do think that the experience of foreign government is important to the historical development of Hungary’s appalling tax culture, after all paying the Soviets, or the Austrians, or the Turks was for many Hungarians paying the enemy. This was also a problem for the French kings of medieval England – think Robin Hood.
I also think, the historic tax exemption of the Hungarian Nemeség continues to give the economically and socially priveledged in Hungary a Leona Helmsley like sense that only little people pay taxes. Széchenyi took several years persuading the nobility that they too should pay a toll to cross the proposed chain bridge. Since Henry VII it was the other way round in England – only the big people paid.
Adrian D:
I appreciate your turgid eloquence but care to restate the same narrative without further references at Liona Hamsley, Robin Hood, the French Kings, Singapore for these items have zero relevancy on the .Hu taxes.
If you disagree – as you wrote – with Kipling then here is a authentic Hungarian in Latin:
“Extra Hungariam non est vita, si est vita, non est ita”.
(Outside Hungary there is no life, if there is life it’s not alike – perfect rhyme. Latin remained .HU official language until about 1844+-)
What is that you find incorrect in my post about the Eastern European mentality. Please be factual.
(Singapore is totalitarian country: gov. cut one’s hair if it’s too long, hang you for drug etc. bad example)
Béla: “in the East people consider the gov. as their enemy with which they are at perpetual war.”
and your friends in the US? The guys behind the Oklahoma bombing, etc. How many millions can it be of those real hard-core rednecks who believe the Federal State is a bunch of thieving Jewish crooks (recognize the arguments?).
We have a bunch of these guys in Sweden also, so I do not think it is an East-West question, more as Adrian D wrote on occupation and also if you believe you get anything for your taxes. 3-500 years ago the tax moral was very low in Sweden. That started to change when the Civil Service part of the society got stronger and started to deliver. In a country that hardly existed as a NationalState the last 1000 years cannot be expected to excel.
Bela’s evaluation, which he got from Balder, will of course be that the Marxists enslaved the Swedes to love their taxes during mid 1900.
Just fun to see what excuse for not paying taxes we will hear when Fidesz is back in power again. Their communists seems OK, so then it must be OK to pay tax then?
So the question is – should you pay tax in Hungary today, or not?
Béla,
“What is that you find incorrect in my post about the Eastern European mentality. Please be factual.”
well, for a start I don’t believe there is a unifrom Eatern European mentality. I’ve lived In Hungary for 12 years, in Russia for a year, and in in the Czech republic for six months. I think there are as many dissimilarities and similarities amongst these countries. Is that factual enough, or do I have to cite some evidence here?
Oops, that last anonymous was me – more AAD.
Viking,
You are hopeless with your constant contentious nagging: you bring up the Swedes, the rednecks, the Jews…Adrian D talking of the French King and Robin Hood in connection with the Hungarian aversion to pay taxes. What the fuck a single terrorist has got to do with the taxes in a country of 300 millions?
Adrian D entertains us with his story of a tax evasive guy with a yacht in Croatia and when I supply the explanation as to why things happen this way in HU. he immediately take a 180 degree turn only to prove that he is smarter than a native son.
Are both of you that dense that cannot comprehend that Westerners fundamentally believe the just nature of their political system? Don’t you know that the MAJORITY of Americans believe in their country even if the radical left hates it?
On the contrary, Hungarians, even the chief Commies harbor doubt about the fairness of the system and cheat on taxes and anything else, try to take unfair advantages whenever it’s possible. Ask a Hu. person to explain to you the meaning of “sogor, koma kapcsolati tőke” expression. Neither of you have any grasp of the Hu. mindset: both of you remain irreversibly foreigner devoid of the sensitivity and keen eye needed to size up a foreign country cultural trait and typical mentality… but don’t take it too hard.
No character left.
But I, as an Hungarian, understand very well. And all I can say is that you are full of shit! Érted??
I’ll write it in Hungarian if you don’t understand my fine English expression. Just let me know.
Emma,
If so you can lick it off from my member since you love it’s taste and swallow it anyway, the smellier the better for you, fagot.
Thanks for letting everyone know the “real” Bela.
Oh, and now that you have exposed yourself, can the readers of this site expect you to get a new “handle”? “Bela” has no credibility whatsoever!
Béla,
“[Adrian D.] immediately take a 180 degree turn only to prove that he is smarter than a native son.”
I do? How, Where?
“Hungarians, even the chief Commies harbor doubt about the fairness of the system and cheat on taxes and anything else, try to take unfair advantages whenever it’s possible”
I thought that I was using this argument to justify by support of Gyurcsány’s tax collection program.
I don’t think I’m smarter than a native son, if I was I would be doing this in Hungarian. But I seriously question your ability to follow an argument like this in English – perhaps you would be less frustrated posting your comments to a Hungarian language site?
Adrian D.
No problem, leave it at it.
Regards
The US has always stood for destroying ones individual race and
nationality. Hungarians who are in such a small number should
run like hell from any US ideals. Part of the economic problem
that led to the downfall of the American banking system is all of
the welfare money fueling so many social programs. Such
programs more times than not go to feed and breed the darker
races. Oh but I will be called a racist and a bigot for this. Look
at the facts and the US crime rate. Then look at South Africa.
There is no free speech in America anymore. There is what the
Jewish controlled media reports and in tandem what the leftist
hollywood promotes. It is OK in America to have a “Black Miss
America” contest but not a “White” one. It is OK to promote Gay,
Black and Spanish rights, history and culture but not White or
European rights, history and culture. The one-sided agenda of
the Obama administration is getting more vocal and much more
stronger. Hungarians, Europeans beware. You are all like the
dinosaur.