Some 2,500 people from the political right wing banded together on Thursday night to protest the removal of a controversial statue that some people associate with the essence of the Hungarian nation while others with the fascist party that espoused it during World War II and sent 600,000 Jews and Romani to their deaths.
The statue is a bird, a mythical falcon called a “Turul”, and was put in place in October 2005 “in memory of the civilian and military dead during World War II.” The city of Budapest has demanded that it be removed and the right wing has been adamant to keep it in place despite repeated court rulings requiring its dismantling.
Demonstrators included about one hundred uniformed members of the paramilitary Hungarian Guard, brought about by the radical right Jobbik party, and representatives of the Smallholders’ Civic Association, a spin-off of the farmers’ now defunct Smallholders’ Party.
Katalin Maria Gaal, representing the Christian Democrat KDNP called the insistence on removal “a provocation against society.” “We have to tolerate” homosexuals on parade, she said, but the intolerants want to take down the Turul statue.
The Jobbik party’s chairman, Gábor Vona, also addressed the gathering. Several fights broke out among skinheads dressed in black during his address, but were halted by police. One such incident was being filmed by a journalist for the Internet portal, Index.hu, when a crowd of about 50 people attacked the two fighters and the journalist. Police encircled the three targets and pulled them out of the fray.
The demonstrators, many of whom carried the red-and-white-striped banners associated with the World War II fascist party, shouted regular insults at police, likening them to the Hungarian version of the KGB. They also chanted “Dirty Jews!” and “Ria, Ria, Hungaria!”
Removal of the statue from where? The only major Turul statue I know is at the Castle and it’s been there longer than 3 years.
@Wayne: It’s at the corner of Böszörményi út and Nagyenyed utca in District XII, along the route of the No. 59 tram from Moszkva tér.
You can’t really miss it as even in a drought and blistering heat (like last year) the sward in front of it is the best tended expanse of grass in Budapest – given that state of most Hungarian lawns and gardens, that in itself is suspicious.
“Several fights broke out among skinheads dressed in black”
Anyone knows why they were fighting. According to the article they were fighting with themselves. Frustration or what? They could not agree if they should shout “Dirty Jews!” or “Ria, Ria, Hungaria!”?
A proud evening for XII district, Fidesz and Hungary.
@Viking: Well there are no reports of counter demonstrators, so it would seem they were frustrated at the lack of sporting opportunities and like a pack of hunting dogs with no prey set on themselves in their pent up frustration.
But, a lot of people did take their kiddies along (http://www.nol.hu/cikk/500077/) to witness the events – something becoming more common at each demonstration by the right. In this way we can be assured that yet another generation will become acclimatised to this nonsense and pass on the noble traditions of their parents.
The statue is not a right wing issue. Most normal Hungarians want it to stay. It’s only the radical left wing and our corrupt government who are trying to create a diversion with the removal of a national symbol.
Why are they so afraid of a united Hungary? Why are they trying so desperately to divide the country? I know why, do you?
It’s all about bread and circuses… with less bread, you need more circus
Stan wrote:
“Why are they so afraid of a united Hungary? Why are they trying so desperately to divide the country? I know why, do you?”
Care to share your wisdom? What do you know that I don’t?
Stan: “Most normal Hungarians want it to stay”.
I do not at the moment challenge that statement, without any evidence attached to it. I just wondered *how* did the pollsters decide which people related to the description a “normal” Hungarian.
Then we can always ask us, does that mean that they think that it was OK to build without permission? I think it is hard to make that conclusion.
Stan: “Why are they trying so desperately to divide the country?” (“they” = “the radical left wing and our corrupt government”).
Well, should not that question go to Fidesz? Orban travels abroad and speak about “uniting the Country”, but it was his party that did *not* try to “unite the Country”, or at least Budapest, around the question of building a statue. Also, as I still understand, if XII-district had built the memorial somewhere else in the its district, where the Budapest City does not have a say, we would not have these discussions. Now it sits on the border to II-district on a street that belongs to the City (streets that are major traffic roads are administrated by the City).
I can only see that Fidesz have a big responsibility for letting the situation escalate to this. It was a clearly designed tactic to create disturbances, that probably in Budapest will work the other way around, strengthen the MSZP.
Stan wrote:
Most normal Hungarians want it to stay.
“The only normal people are the one’s you don’t know very well.”
________Alfred Adler
Okay if they want to tear down the bird statue then it is time we tear down that ugly communist monument from WW2 in the heart of Budapest!!!
The WWII Memorial Statue is governed by a bilateral agreement between today’s Russia and Hungary.
Russia on their hand are obliged to take care of Hungarian WWII monuments/graves on their territory. Breaking this agreement could make problems for those memorials.
If you have forgotten it, Hungary attacked the Allied and Hungary lost against the Allied. It is normal to keep each others memorials in order, so I do not think it is a good idea to connect these 2 statues.
If someone destroys it we, the few tax-payers left in Hungary, needs to pay the repairs.
The only people that are trying to divide Hungary are the idiots who asked for the statue to be removed in the first place!
They fully understand the agitation and trouble they will be stiring up!
Canadian Anti-Commie,
Your suggestion is sacrilege in Hungary today: you are an enemy whose hand put his feet in the country.
You are a uneducated rube who forgot the leading spirit of Hungary and many resident’s on this forum:
“Lenin lived, Lenin lives, Lenin shall live!”
Turul is a disgusting animal of pray anyway. This is the right way to go:
From the Index.hu
Szoborkertbe az 1956-os emlékoszlopokkal!
* Tóth-Szenesi Attila – tszenesi@mail.index..hu
Örök hála és dicsőség a szovjet hősöknek, akik az 1956. októberi ellenforradalomban életüket áldozták a magyar nép szabadságáért. Ilyen és ehhez hasonló emlékoszlopokon köszönik meg a magyarok a szovjeteknek az 1956-os beavatkozást. A feliratokat frissen aranyozták. Az oszlopok alatt szovjet katonák nem nyugszanak, mégis kérdéses, hogy Magyarország kezdeményezheti-e eltávolításukat.
http://index.hu/politika/belfold/szu080711/
This note is to the writer of this article.
You have to stop lying and misleading the English speaking world. The Turul bird and the red-white striped flag are ancient Hungarian symbols that has nothing to do with those ‘people’ you mention in the article. If you call the Turul bird and the red and white stripe flags fascist and nazi symbols, then you call Arpad and Rakoczi fascists and nazis.
Then you actually go on by saying that there were skinheads attacking a journalist is a flat lie. There was a journalist who was filming two drunks fighting nearby. So some people questioned him why he was filming an unrelated incident when they found out who he works for.
This part of my comment is only distantly related to the article, but it helps the readers understand the broader context of what is really happening in Hungary:
Hungary’s economy was the first in the region when the Orban government left in 2002. Now it is the last. Why is that? Hungarians all of a sudden became lazy after 2002? Not at all. It is because of the Gyurcsany government’s failed policies and its cover-ups and lies about the state of the economy. In 2006 the Gyurcsany government misled the people basically committing election fraud and it cannot be considered as legitimate. Now this government is using minorities and abusing people’s emotions to divide the Hungarian people and take the attention away from the real issues such as why we are the last economy in the region.
Stop the lies!
Kevin,
Stop the apologies!
Kevin – Thanks for showing your right face!
You write: “There was a journalist who was filming two drunks fighting nearby. So some people questioned him why he was filming an unrelated incident when they found out who he works for.”
The interesting part here is that you do not find it terrible that “some people” question what a journalist does. It is not interesting if they were skinheads or their level of drunkenness. They obviously made a problem for the journalist to work. The Police had to intervene to save the journalist from “some people”. Is that Free Speech Kevin Way to attack journalists?
I still notice that the people who support the building of the monument does not discuss the question why it is correct *not* to follow the rules and regulations. So rules, regulations and law are nothing worth – just push the political line? In what sense does that make you better than the Gov’t?
Mr Simpson – If you give me the address of your garage I will park one of my cars outside. It will of course be you who is the bad guy, making a lot of problems, by requesting it to be taken away. Your logic is wonderful as usual.
Bela, your comment about Lenin living and dying and coming back again, shows that you are some Bolshevik loser. Are you supporting an idealogy that killed up to 100 million in the 20th century? The left in Hungary has always been made up of minority groups in Hungary i.e. Jews, swabs, gypsie etc. Anything that represents real HUNGARIANS i.e. Turul madar etc. is always attacked, I know how the leftist scum work here in North America just as they did in Europe 70-80 years ago and still do today! They now operate as Multiculturalists and Globalists and usually spit on the native (homogenius) inhabitants by destroying their culture and heritage i.e. Turul Madar. Communism was and is a globalist idealogy. Against nation states, nationalism and homogenius cultures and peoples.
Oh by the way, why was gay parade in Budapest celebrated by the left and the Turul madar to be taken down. If they don’t like Hungary or its cultural icons then the door is always open for you and your kind to leave. Always be respectful of the majority culture, don’t bite the hand that feeds you or it will smash you..
P.S. Commissar Bela, I have a degree in Political Science and Historical Studies, I found the uneducated remark to be highly amusing.
Viking
I want to clarify this to make sure we are on the same page. You said:
“The interesting part here is that you do not find it terrible that “some people” question what a journalist does. It is not interesting if they were skinheads or their level of drunkenness.”
Well, those ‘some people’ as it turns out knew the ‘journalist’ very well from his previous ‘work’ – the lies and distortions he made before and they approached him as he was filming a totally unrelated incident and sort of pulled a prank on him by dumping some smelly butyric acid on him to demonstrate they do not like liars. The level of drunkenness of the participants showing their egos is totally irrelevant to the message of the demonstration. It is the job of the police to take care of the situation like that. It is the job of the journalist to find out all the FACTS and tell the TRUTH instead of putting up an edited video on the Internet that ties the two drunks showing up their egos to a peaceful demonstration. It is a disgrace to Hungary and to Hungarians that journalists like that keep lying and distorting the facts making foreigners believe that Hungary is now a nazi country where skinheads rule. These lies cost a lot to Hungary as a country and the people who are peace-loving, welcoming and hard-working, And yes, there are some bad people among Hungarians too, just like there are bad people among Americans, Germans, Jews, Arabs, Gypsies, you name it. It is always the individual that matters.
Canadian Anti-Communist,
My post intended to be sarcastic: don’t you have any sense of humor? I was a political prisoner in a high security Communist jail as an “enemy of the people”. Most of the posters on this forum are moonbat leftist not me!
Canadian Anti-Communist,
Can’t you remember when the Commies said “The hand of the enemy put its feet in the country”?.
This was the giveaway that I was making fun of the idiot Bolsheviks that run the show today.
I am to the south of your border since many years ago.
Kevin: “It is the job of the journalist to find out all the FACTS and tell the TRUTH”
Wow, here we have it! You have learn very good from your Totalitarian Masters, regardless if you call them “Communist/Nazi/’Whatever-Party’”. I am sure Bela has a lot of names for people like you. He can also quote the US Information Act, that makes him able to read what he wants, not just the “Party-line”. The truth is always what the “Party” claims, because what else should it be? If you want to make a Commercial about the Demo, you do that, just do not call it “journalism”.
You go on: “those ‘some people’ as it turns out knew the ‘journalist’ very well from his previous ‘work’”.
That actually contradicts your 1st post where you wrote
“some people questioned him why he was filming an unrelated incident when they found out who he works for”.
So, the conclusion is that they did not know the journalist in person, they had a problem with the specific media he was working for (RTLKlub?).
You actually promote physical attacks on journalists = your 2nd post: “dumping some smelly butyric acid on him to demonstrate they do not like liars”.
Your final statement “making foreigners believe that Hungary is now a nazi country where skinheads rule”. No, foreigners will not believe that “skinheads rule”, but what do you think foreigners will think when they see Magyar Garda marching? Or is that a lie also? Check the video on http://index.hu/video/2008/07/25/lesz_meg_magyar_nyar/
Canadian Anti-Kommunista: “I have a degree in Political Science and Historical Studies”. Obviously not a degree in Satire. I found the educated remark to be highly amusing.
All this fuss about a myth. Why don´t annul psychology and psychoanalysis in the same breath: They are all created by myth, but that we call science- As Nietzsche saw clearly the only semitic myth in the ancient Greece is Oedipus (and as the “Big Ear” Freud listened to). Lets be European or Asian- anything but this “psy” shit.
Better a myth about nature like the Turul bird. Well, are “we” on this world or not?
Viking, would foreigners tolerate former Communist Youth Leader running a democratic country? (aka Gyurcsany?) Would the world also tolerate a former Nazi youth leader running a democratic country? no way! Double standard? You bet!
The turul is a part of hungarian culture and history…so what’s the problem here? There is one on the castlewall and one on the hill of Tatabánya…
And the Arpádflag that is carried these days is different from the red and white striped flag of the fascist of WW2!! Know your history…!
So another example of subjective leftwing journalism!
What is next?
Géza,
You’re right the “Arpádflag that is carried these days is different from the red and white striped flag of the fascist of WW2″.
The Arrowcross flag looked like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nyilaskereszteszaszlo.SVG
But the arrowcross sign is illegal in Hungary and presumably displaying it at a public demonstration would lead to arrest. The Arpád flag has thus become shorthand for fascism in Hungary, and the only Hungarians I know who use it (my students) have fascist or more accurately neo-Nazi worldviews.
Incidentally, was the Arpád used during the 1848/9 war of Independence? I am very non-plussed as to why Hungarian nationalists would want to use a symbol which since 1526 has been used exclusively – and with full heraldic right – by the house of Habsburg. In the UK we use our national flags rather than the Royal arms.
Adrian D:
I am absolutely convinced while you denounce the Arpadflag and the the Hungarian fascism that sweeping this country and “about to be take it over”, you have deep deferential feeling and tears in your eyes when you see the Red Star, the Red Flag and the Hammer and Sickle that exterminated 100 millions worldwide and thousands in .Hu
Those mostly young man fluttering the red-white flag are innocent of any crime yet many in the Commie government or its wider entourage guilty of mass murder and they are proud of it.
Your coveted evidence: On display at the House of Terror, ask about Gyula Horn and his ilk and Körmös Bauer among many.
It appears that the Arpadflag became the symbol of a popular movement opposing the Red Fascism that you cherish deeply in your heart.
Föl, föl, ti rabjai a földnek,
Föl, föl, te éhes proletár!
A győzelem napjai jönnek,
Rabságodnak vége már.
A múltat végképp eltörölni
Rabszolga-had indulj velünk!
A föld fog sarkából kidőlni,
Semmik vagyunk, s minden leszünk!
Canadian anti-Kommunista: “would foreigners tolerate former Communist Youth Leader running a democratic country? (aka Gyurcsany?)”
Obviously. That is the situation in many of the former Warsaw-pact countries, including Russia. Rest of Europe have of natural reasons not had that situation, but you have clear Communist Parties and “Left”-parties that have Minister posts in several European countries. So Hungary is not unique, which even people in Canada would now about.
The world, and I assume you also, had no problems with the MDF (1990-94) and Fidesz (1998-2002) Governments. In those parties and Gov’ts you had old Communists. The Fidesz leadership today contains several old communists, so what is the deal? Viktor Orban’s father was a Political Secretary for the Communist Party at a mine, that the father later bought after 1990 cheap.
Both in Germany (both West and East) you have had several old Nazi-members on high positions. When questions have come up, it has much been targeted at if the person in question had blood on his/hers hand. If they had done any illegal actions.
Bela,
Your post about Adrian D’s post on the Arpad-flag makes me wonder how you can live in the US?
If the US had not gone in the war on the UK/Soviet-side, maybe Third Reich and Greater Hungary had existed today. How can you look at your neighbors, who may have relatives that fought on the Arctic route to supply Stalin’s Soviet? Do you spit after them? Do you call them names?
If the US had not supplied Stalin, he would not had power enough to occupy the Eastern part of Europe and you would not have ended up in political prison.
Of course Hungarians are without any guilt, they just happened to attack the Allied Nations (US/UK/Soviet), but that should of course not be hold against them.
Finally we have the extreme treason the US did under the 1956 uprising, urging Hungarians to rise, giving them hope that the US would come and free them. Just like the story with Bush Senior and the Shia in South Iraq, during Operation Desert Storm.
Your apologies for the US Real-Politic do not seem to have any limits.
Pestiside already weighed in with a solution to Hungary’s flag problem.
http://www.pestiside.hu/20070525/a-sortofgay-solution-to-hungarys-sortofnazi-flag-problem/
Viking,
The saga of WWII is well documented, every aspect of it and you cannot add or invent new twist.
I could hardy resist a smile when you elegantly omitted the Stalin-Ribbentrop pact, to wit, the Communist had no aversion to Fascism an other form of Socialism.
Please watch these AMAZING authentic video footage on youtube:
Soviet Union and Nazi Germany – the two allies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkP58FsQGls&NR=1
***
1939 German-Soviet troop parade in Brest Litovsk:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iZEfHEa_jas
I was shocked to see as the SS and Red Army marching together hand in hand.
Bela,
The US was not involved in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, but they were involved in the Jalta Conference, when they gave Hungary to Stalin.
So the question remains – How can you actually feel good living in a country that actively, and probably more than any other country in the world, supported Stalin’s Soviet?
Is it not like that that the Socialist/Communist Genocide has killed more people than any Fascist/Nazi Genocide? Your new Home Country supported the biggest part of that, Stalin’s terror.
If you see Communists when some people in Hungary have a problem with the symbolism connected with the Arpad-flag, I do not understand how you can pay taxes to a country that deliberately let Hungary down 2 times last century (Jalta and 1956) and stood by and just looked the other way when Hungarians were slaughtered by the Soviet Red Army. You call yourself a patriot?
Viking,
I lived in .Hu much longer than you will ever do so I am perfectly aware of the frustration of the radical Commies for their loss of absolute power.
But you could see the their true animal face when the Commies trained police attacked the commemorative crowd during the ’56 festivities without ID badges but with excessive force using the “Viper”.
Please cut the crap, I was there, I have a large picture archive depicting that event.
As for the rest there are many unanswered question to be studied by Historians:
Why the Auschwitz railroads were not bombed.
Why Eastern Europe was ceded to the Soviets-Yalta.
1956 is more complex: while there were considerable number of Russian army bases – including nuclear arms – in .Hu and in the Warsaw Bloc that surrounded it, no comparable Nato forces were war ready in the West. Also Western Europeans are notorious for appeasement let it be about Fascism, Communism, or as recently Islamofascism.
So was your subject of high respect the corrupt UN.
But your lame attempt to connect me personally to bygone Historical events beyond my control is just as ridiculous as Joe’s suggestion to turn myself into a black African man like Mandela to see the light and the ultimate truth.
Béla,
Where did I denounce the Arpád flag? How is it possible to denouce a flag?
Why on earth do you think I’m a communist? My last vote was for the MDF (maybe they are a “shadowy marxist organisation”, please furnish details)
Bela: “I lived in .Hu much longer than you will ever do”. Should I interpret that as you wish my early death? You do not know my age and health. You have probably forgotten how long I have been here as you repeatedly forget who said what and mixes up the different people writing.
Anyway, the 2006-events have been covered extensively and you are, as usual, not correct that that was 100% of what happened. Riots are riots and the HU Police was badly trained and equipped. Their tactics were also sub-standard.
Now you have new name: “radical Commies”. Who are they? We, the normal middle-of-road-people, would think MunkasPart or more “left” than that. I assume you mean the elected Gov’t?
I ask you before, who are not Communists in the US. I believe I never got an answer? Just to make it easier – Does it really exist any non-communist people in Hungary today? Could you just name a few that are still in Hungary, so we understand how your mind works?
You accuse me of “connect me personally to bygone Historical events beyond my control”. No, I just asked how you feel in the morning when you know you pay tax to a country (US) that actively helped Stalin to stay in power and extend his powers over Eastern Europe, in the end putting you in a political prison? You are the one who see Communists everywhere (do you check under your bed also?).
From your repeated apologies for the US actions I can only assume you have something similar to the Stockholm-syndrome.
Instead of debating Bela’s state/less/ of mind, let us look at these pictures of a bird that for me looks exactly like the infamous Turul Bird Statue:
http://esbalogh.typepad.com/.a/6a00e009865ae5883300e553bd186a8833-pi
If anyone can explain for me why this symbol is appropriate as a memory of the civilian deaths in XII district during WWII, given the associations these pictures gives?
Just remember that the Turul bird is a myth, so there are no rules how it is depicted.
Viking,
So what if a thousand year old symbol was misused for a short period of time? We just wipe off the mud and it will shine again. You can get a better idea what the Turul is about by looking at these images:
http://szabad.info/turul1.html
Viking,
How could you give Béla a link to HS! I think we can guess what’s going to happen next.
Stan,
Interesting pic. But why from underneath and behind, did you want to create the impression it was shitting on us? In Hungary that’s good luck.
Adrian,
There are several other pictures on that website.
Click on the first pic to find the next one.
You can do it…
Stan, so you think that type of predator animal with a sword in its claws is a proper tribute to civilian victims?
What are the relatives to think – War Is Good?
What is the lesson of WWII? More war is good, or this was the last one?
Are actually anyone thinking about the dead people, whose names are written around the foundation of the statue? From the names I can see that not every one is a Tiszta Magyar.
Time to let the victims of old wars rest and pay more attention to the victims of the current regime.
The Turul is an ancient symbol, it happens to be a friggin bird, big deal. A thousand years ago swords were part of people’s regular outfit.
The Turul and the Crown symbolize a time in history when our tribes came together to settle down and build a great country. Any problems with that?
What about an other ancient symbol, the cross.
It’s a device to kill people with, but it served well to unite large number of people.
We need our national symbols to become a united country again.
Stan wrote:
“The Turul and the Crown symbolize a time in history when our tribes came together to settle down and build a great country. Any problems with that?”
How great is the country if, as you say, it is run by commies?
Your logic does not compute.
Stan,
Nobody has problem with national symbols like the Russian, Polish white eagle or the Czarist (!!) two-headed eagle, the US bald eagle, German black eagle etc. The Hungarian Leftist and their useful idiot Western acolytes abhor the notion of a Hungarian Nation and any, even abstract reference at it.
For them the Red Star, hammer and sickle is the expression of the true, patriotic Hungary and the EU court affirmed it a short while ago.
Turul, an ancient symbol is bad but the symbol of the Red Fascist genocide is OK for the children of the AVO.
Adrian D
Your astute acumen reaching the sky and beyond:
“Where did I denounce the Arpád flag? How is it possible to denouce a flag?”
de·nounce
(d-nouns)
tr.v. de·nounced, de·nounc·ing, de·nounc·es
1. To condemn openly as being evil or reprehensible. See Synonyms at criticize.
2. To accuse formally.
3. To give formal announcement of the ending of (a treaty).
Thesaurus
verb 1. denounce – speak out against; “He denounced the Nazis”
verb 1. condemn, attack, censure, decry, castigate, revile, vilify, proscribe, stigmatize, impugn, excoriate, declaim against
From the Free Dictionary
http://www.tfd.com/denounce
Bela,
Who has ever suggested a Red Star etc as the correct tribute for the civilian victims of the WWII in XII?
No one and you know it. Explain for us how a predator animal with a sword in its claws is a proper tribute to civilian victims?
Stan, as usual did not answer, just ignoring what the memorial is for. Can you do better?
Viking,
You are off topic.
The current altercation has nothing to do with anything at all relating to WWII in essence: this is part of the ongoing ideological confrontation between the Nationalist front and the EU-Marxist advocates of the abolition of the Nation-States of which you are an ardent supporter.
The subject of the hostile argument can be anything that can stir up emotions, right now is the satue. Jude Suss movie is another one.
Similar confrontation has occurred between Sarko and Le Pen when the latter defended the French nation:
English subtitled :
Le Pen – The Strasbourg speech about Europe (July, 10. 2008)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9-k0Gc3RTM&eurl=http://www.fdesouche.com/?p=4754
Does Nizkor have Béla’s other use net names on file?
Viking,
This ongoing forced politicization by the anti-Turul crowd is ridiculous: the current OFFICIAL seal of the REPUBLIC of Hungary, the coat of arms is the same as the old Hungarian Kingdom’s (Crown for a Republic?), same as the Fascist Hungary’s, included the red-white stripes as well.
Why the Turul is Nazi and the old and present coat of arms is not? What is the beef with the bird?
And the Fascist coat of arms is OK?
Béla wrote:
“This ongoing forced politicization by the anti-Turul crowd is ridiculous:”
Who is forcing who?
Bela: “This ongoing forced politicization by the anti-Turul crowd is ridiculous”
I beg Your Pardon, but how did it look on the inauguration day? Just check out this picture:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Turul_avat%C3%A1s_05-10-22-Bp-XII-szobor1.JPG
The inauguration was part of the 49 year celebration of the 1956 uprising. Why? Where is the connection? What has a memorial for the WWII *civilian* deaths in XII district to do with the 1956 uprising?
The whole thing with this memorial was from the beginning political, anything else is just BS. The people behind this memorial does not care of the WWII XII-district civilian deaths.
I asked for alternative depictions of the Turul bird and I found this one from some old coin way back:
http://hargita.awardspace.com/taltos/t2401.gif
That is a nice bird!
Viking,
I could not understand what was you intention to say
the diction appears to me a tad murky but anyway, what is your beef with the Hungarian Turul?
You are not part of the Hungarian internal social struggle – (I now, there are no more Nations, indigenous cultures, “We are the children of the world)- you don’t have our inner cultural, historical set of references and conflicts. Your point is to be on the Lefty’s side whatever controversial issue arise?
Are you a Che Guevara in .Hu? No pasaran? Venceremos?
Béla,
get a proper dictionary, for a second language user of English like yourself I recommend Collins Cobuild Advanced Learners English Dictionary. It gives the following definition of ‘denounce’: “If you denouce a person or an action, you criticise them severely and publically because you feel strongly that they are wrong or evil”. So as a flag is neither a person or an action, you can’t denounce a flag.
This kind of information is not usually included in dictionaries for native speakers because native speakers don’t usually make the this kind of mistake. The only example given in your definition conforms to the cobuild definition – the nazi’s were human.
Instead of running from post to post interrupting over people’s discussions – my original post on this page was a question to Géza – why don’t you stand your ground and argue your case. So which ‘shadowy marxist organisations’ is Soros funding?
Adrian,
You wrote: “nazi’s were human”.
Can you spot the error?
You may use a dictionary if needed.
Smartass…
Smartass…,
No, there was no error. We shouldn’t dehumanise the Nazis because that would be to follow them, they dehumanized jews, slavs, gypsies, homosexuals, negroes, the handicapped… Denounce,” condemn, attack, censure, decry, castigate, revile, vilify, proscribe, stigmatize, impugn, excoriate, and declaim against” them but don’t dehumanise them.
I am very pleased however to have it implied that I am both a communist and a nazi lover on the same page of the same site – a first!
Adrian,
Wrong answer!
You wrote: “nazi’s” instead of “nazis”.
That’s all.
Better luck next time.
Bela,
For the last time – I do *not* have a problem with the Hungarian Turul (a loanword from the Turkics). I do not!
I have a problem with this specific memorial for the following reasons:
1) Legal – it is built without permissions by politicians that do not respect the rules.
2) Artistic – What message does a statue that is depicted as a symbol for military force send out when placed on a memorial for *civilian* war-dead?
Of all these 57 comments above no one actually even try to answer the very simple question 2 above. Just a lot of excuses to focus on the current political situation. As I wrote in my previous post, the inauguration of this memorial was part of the remembrance of the 1956 uprising. That itself just shows that the people behind this memorial are not interested in a WWII memorial. As I understand they wanted to create confrontation, using the defenseless memory of dead WWII civilians as vehicle.
That and nothing else is the evaluation of this memorial. A proud series of events for XII district, Fidesz and Hungary.
Smartass…,
Yeah, you got me real good, exploiting my longing for real argument like that…it’s cruel.
But don’t overlook that I failed to capitalise “Nazi” – twice. Shit, so did you! And “don’t usually make the this kind” contains a syntactic blend. And I wrote “over” instead of “other”. You may have read Lynne Truss, but you ain’t no proof reader.
Adrian D,
It appears you have became the self appointed arrogant word-warden on this forum: only dictionaries with your prior approval are admissible.
You know what?- you are a little leftist arrogant prick – that is all.
I keep using those dictionaries I found very useful in my studies and for good measure all of them are English publication thus I have no reason to doubt their accuracy.
You have the freedom to ignore my post however.
***
Concise Oxford English Dictionary, 11th edition
Search results (1 of 1)
denounce
¦ verb publicly declare to be wrong or evil.
***
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denounce
Main Entry:
de·nounce
1: to pronounce especially publicly to be blameworthy or evil -they denounced him as a bigot-
2archaic a: proclaim b: to announce threateningly3: to inform against : accuse4obsolete : portend5: to announce formally the termination of (as a treaty)
synonyms: see criticize
Viking,
Your sentence:
“Of all these 57 comments above no one actually even try to answer the very simple question 2 above. Just a lot of excuses to focus on the current political situation.”
- is the undeniable proof that your comprehension or evaluation and judgment is very alien to many on this board.
I would be equally hard pressed to take such stand between the English-Scottish acrimony on a British forum that most Brit could identify with.
1. Built without permission: translated to Hungarian: The communist scoundrels want to spit in our face by denying a permit, abusing their illegitimate power, we defy their arbitrary decision, fu*k the bastard Bolsheviks, we take a stand with that bird.
2. Hungarian translation:
The only message is that you rotten mother f..k communist murder f..k off, we are not afraid of you anymore. This is the symbol of our nation not your f…g red star and hammer and sickle.
Enough of f.ing commie terror, we hate you bastard, and we do what we want to do. All of you are illegitimate lying f..ing cesspool of excrement and the Turul symbolizes a Nation that is awakening.
Got it now?
Bela,
In difference to you I actually live in Hungary today.
Your post speaks for itself on you and your partners for a radical and violent Hungarista-movement. You are a fringe in the society and you will stay there. You lack the mindset to adjust to a normal society.
Today Hungary enjoys a stable Parliamentarian Democracy, European Style. It is not a Communist Dictatorship, as your mindset still are set to. Just because Hungary is a Democracy, people do not see the Hungarista-movement (and their peers) as something positive, something that moves the country forward.
Your arguments always boils down to “2 errors make a right”, but it does not. You can not defend a clear case of building without all permits, that someone else already did the same. That is how it works in a law and order society. Your Guerrilla-time is over, back to normal boring work, to melt into normal society.
Your computer seem to have a problem with the keyboard, a lot of dots (.), or you have a problem speaking out? Maybe you have been to long in the US, where they beep everything that could upset you guys.
Let’s talk about permits and law and order and legal and such when the same law applies to everyone. If everything that’s not perfectly legal and by the book would blow up here, the country would look like it did after the war.
Stan,
You use that argument when you are speeding also?
You can not pick and chose which laws you should follow, very simple. The same applies to Politicians, of all camps.
You can never make a right from two faults, but you can always correct a fault. So verbally attack the Politicians who do not follow the law. Make people aware about it and get people to vote for some else next election, if you cannot remove the Politician in question on something substantial criminal.
There is of course one big difference between Members Of Parliament (MP) and normal people. MPs have immunity against every criminal acts during the time of the Parliament. This immunity only a strong majority of the remaining MPs can lift. But this is valid for all MPs, regardless party.
Béla,
“You know what?- you are a little leftist arrogant prick” Tut, tut, Béla, personal abuse is no substitute for ideas.
“I have no reason to doubt their accuracy.” No, nor do I, in fact I quoted – non ironically – from one later on. Instead, I suggested that given your difficulties with the English language – understanding my posts, for example – you might be better off with a different type of dictionary.
I don’t know where you get the idea I am a leftist, I’m a conservative, almost a romantic one when it comes to heraldry etc. I like turuls and Arpád flags, and would like to know more about how they been used in Hungarian history, why don’t you answer my questions rather than simply insulting me.
Adrian D
“I don’t know where you get the idea I am a leftist, I’m a conservative,…I like turuls and Arpád flags, and would like to know more about how they been used in Hungarian history,”
I cannot remember every post on this forum, may be I made a mistake or misjudged you, probably I made a reflexive accusation because I got pissed off when Leftist moonbats from the West enter .Hu and start lecturing and pontificating to indigenous people without the faintest knowledge of the internal, subconscious working of the natives’ mind.
However your earlier post contradicts to your last one: you made a direct connection to Fascism with regard to the flag by stating this:
“The Arpád flag has thus become shorthand for fascism in Hungary, and the only Hungarians I know who use it (my students) have fascist or more accurately neo-Nazi worldviews.”
My difficulty with comprehensions of you writing is not grammatical one but your lack of clear incisive style and choice of words.
Care to deliver elucidation:
do you like (support) the flag as historical relic
or it is a symbol of Fascism?
It cannot be both.
(Incidentally French is my second language and English is third).
Viking,
You are mistaken as usual, I am a .Hu citizen with permanent residency over there as my birth right.
You made yourself utterly ridiculous when as a foreigner started lecturing indigenous people and spouting off Leftist talking points in English.
If I lived in England for 100 years still I wouldn’t have the impertinence and self confidence to pontificating about rights and wrongs of Gordon the Leper.
I have no particular argument with you: you are an avowed EU Marxist, a supporter of the renamed Communists, Anti-Semite, a warrior against Nation-States and may be for a Marxist World Gov. – I suppose.
You have your counterparts in the US amongst the New Left, and Progressive (Commie) Democrats.
I am nationalist and we are equally numerous and only way to crush us is by Russian tanks or by unleashing the Red terror. We were not on fringes
in 56, and the Commie support is very low: have you heard Gyurcsany fu.k off?
Please show me one Marxist nation where “That is how it works in a law and order society.”
Law and order under Communist rule? Not long ago the Commies introduced the “hate speech law” according which even a hand gesture that one MIGHT interpret as offensive my land you in jail.
I respect your privacy so may question is purely hypothetical and I need no answer: are you being paid by the Reds? (You know, always look for the money)
Bela, left of arguments?
Why not answer simple questions instead of just insulting and lying?
Let us go through your statements:
1) You claim now to be living in Hungary? Well, before you always claimed that you fled Communism to the Free US. Now you have “permanent residence in .HU”. How does that contradict my statement that you live in the US? Do you live here or in the US? Simple question. I live in Hungary.
2) “a foreigner started lecturing indigenous people”.
a) Ooohh, but were are the “indigenous people” in Hungary? Please inform us, we are around 10 Million people in this country and we looked all morning, but we could not find any? Or, maybe you mean the Roma?
b) You on the other hand is not a foreigner in the US, so you can comment on whatever you want, like “the Marxist mulatto Hussein”.
3) You accuse me of being a communist (several variants) and suddenly an “Anti-Semite”. Where did you get that from? Show one single Anti-Semite line I have written! You are the true Anti-Semite and you (and everyone else also) know it.
4) You want me to show an example on a Marxist country that works. Well, not being a Marxist, nor proposing such ideas, I have not a clue, and could not care less. That is your problem.
5) Being paid by the Red?
As I stated before I am entrepreneur who has several companies in Hungary, no one ever politically connected, neither in person or financially, to any party. I do my own thing.
Where do you get your money – from the Hungaristas?
Béla,
so glad you’re trying to be nice to me!
“do you like (support) the flag as historical relic or it is a symbol of Fascism? It cannot be both.”
I think it is both. By parallel consider the swastika. I have some old editions of Rudyard Kipling stories, the binding is embossed with a elephant supporting a swastika – a personal symbol of Rudyard Kipling. Now I know that Kipling chose the swastika long before Hitler did, so in no way was Kipling using the swastika to endorse Nazism. But the swastika now means only one thing to the vast majority of people – Nazism. Likewise the Arpád flag, I appreciate it’s significance as the heraldic symbol of the Arpád Royal House – I like – the perhaps unfounded story – that the four silver bars represent the four major rivers flowing through the Kingdom of Hungary; the Duna, the Tisza, the Száva and the Dráva. But I also know that a modified version of the flag was used by the Arrow Cross, and that the Hungarians I know who wear the flag on their clothes are Neo-nazis who want the elimination of jews and gypsies from Hungary and to take back the territories ceded at Trianon. So to determine what the flag means you need to determine what are the intentions of those using it. The Arpáds were not using it as a symbol of racial integrity though they – if the story is true – were using it as a very effective symbol of territorial integrity.
Now, was it used during the 1848/9 war of independence?
Adrian D:
This blog is essentially a political forum where ideologies clash sometime rather vituperatively.
Your communicating style remind me to that of the Delphi Oracle which used an evasive, rather peculiar, oblique language that could be interpreted several contradictory ways depending on the listener’s belief system. Of course you took no part personally in the contemporary Hungarian History either as abuser or victim, you weren’t an actor like most of us. Your views are of an outsider’s opinion which can be highly praised on The Guardian or on Die Stern pages but will never penetrate into our way of thinking.
My point is this: the latent civil war that started in 1919 with the Communist takeover now several generation old like the Basque, IRA or many European conflicts.
Every group on the face of the Earth have a symbol or a mascot or something that represent them.
The Arpad flag is the war flag of the Hungarian Nationalists who despise the Communists because WE DO KNOW who is who in this country regardless of Leftist obfuscations and lies.
The Commies resent it and counterattack.
And Westerners who are making money support those who facilitate their businesses, hence Viking fondness for the Gov.
Béla,
It’s certainly refreshing to read a non-vituperative statement of your position. Though I disagree with your purpose of this blog, as a non-Hungarian speaking resident of Hungary it is an important source of information for me about what is going on in Hungary, my country. I am also curious to find out why the people commenting on this blog beleive the things they do. Often it seems that truth is subordinated to faction.
So to continue the line of questioning I started with a few thousand words ago: you write “The Arpad flag is the war flag of the Hungarian Nationalists”. If so, was the flag used in the war that was most clearly fought over issues of Hungarian Nationalism, the independence war of 1848/9? Who by? Where? And when?
PS Before you jump to more conclusions, I support the EU but unlike Viking I believe in a Europe of nations (i.e. I’m a moderate nationalist).
Viking
My problem arguing with you rest with the fact that you try to catch me on some horrendous vice I have committed against my own conviction: America supported Stalin thus I must not stay in the US.
Communists rule .Hu thus I must not go there.
Not even to support my fellow Anti-Communists?
I can’t throw eggs at the fagots?
I can’t take part in anti-gov protest?
Do you give me permission to have an Anti-Commie office in Bp?
You constant nitpicking on every word reveals your nagging personal style that devoid of broader intellectual comprehension, your constant search for a petty, artificially overblown word that you think affirms your righteousness.
Bull…that’s all there is to it.
“Please inform us, we are around 10 Million people in this country and we looked all morning, but we could not find any?”
Who is WE? Are you Hungarian already? Are you a citizen? Do you have knowledge of the Hungarian literature and History? What an arrogant prick you are!
In an earlier post you stated your aversion to Nation-States, including the Leftist’s bogeyman Israel a.k.a. the little Satan, your love for the EU.
I don’t want to run in circles: many of your leftist ravings have been answered by me or others on this forum, among others, like lunatics left the asylum.
While waiting for Béla to come back to me on “the war flag of the Hungarian Nationalists”, I discovered this site:
http://www.fotw.net/flags/hu_hist.html
I can’t vouch for the historical accuracy, for example “Lines of Succession: Heraldry of the Royal families of Europe” attributes the first Arpád stripes to Béla III (appropriately enough) 1173-1196. But he does cite all his sources. Unfortunately of our Béla, it seems that the Hungarian Nationalists of 1848/9 did not use use the Arpád stripes, but the tricolour we still use today. But I wait to be corrected, with evidence…
Bela wrote: “the latent civil war that started in 1919 with the Communist takeover now several generation old like the Basque, IRA or many European conflicts.” (in a post addressed to AD)
That statement gives away a lot on Bela’s state of mind. I have been puzzled how he could live in this Bunker and Guerrilla mentality. Now I understand the background, even if I can not even start to understand his logic and reasoning.
If we take Finland as an example on Bela’s thesis on the several generations old Civil War between White and Red. How did they solve the enormous damage and hate the war had created?
The country was slowly reunited through the compromises of moderate political groups on the left and right.
To quote from wikipedia: ‘compromise was based both on the defeat of Red Finland in the Civil War and the fact that most of the political goals of White Finland had not been achieved. After the foreign forces left Finland, the Finns realised they had to get along with each other and that none of the main groups could be rejected completely from society. The reconciliation led to a slow and painful, but steady, national unification. The compromise has turned out to be surprisingly strong and appears permanent. From 1919 to 1991, Finnish democracy and sovereignty withstood challenges from both right-wing and left-wing radicalism, the crisis of World War II, and pressure from the Soviet Union during the Cold War.’
Anyone seeing Bela being a part of those moderates?
Adrian D:
I do not claim to be in possession of the ultimate truth but here is may take:
The revolution of 1848 was not a standard revolution we are accustomed to behold like the Parisian Commune of 1871. It was a pan-European war: Emperor of Austria, the Russian Czar, Jellachich of Croatia, all got involved. Our greatest poet, Petofi and Kossuth, the hanging of the 13 Generals by Haynau, the confiscation of the FLAGS! by the Russians etc. all those events are sealed in a grave in a figurative National Pantheon and are UNTOUCHABLE!
1848′s memory is treated as sacrosanct, no one shall expropriate its spirit, its relics, its symbols by anyone. Taboo by unwritten consensus.
Am I sufficiently clear for you?
The Arpad flag red-white stripes and it’s variants however are not connected to any one single event: it can be found on old coats of arms, old coins, on the official seal of .HU of today, etc.
However, every application of it PREDATES the birth of Communism hence there is a great deal anti-commie feeling and emotion is attached to it.
The Historical Nationhood versus the “New Socialist Man” according to Lenin’s followers.
Adrian D:
You can see images of .HU Historical flags with English subtitle at:
http://www.geocities.com/zaszlok/hazateres/tortenel.html
The 1848 Revolution’s flag was on white background surrounded by red and green triangles around its perimeter. In the center the Coat of Arms of Kossuth was positioned.
I double checked, the link is very good, it start from King Stephen the First all the way to the present and good pictures!
Just to give a shorter and more precise answer than Bela (GPP)’s ramblings:
Kossuth for some reason did not like the Arpad-flag (ask him) and therefore only the TriColor was used by the Kossuth-followers.
I wrote something about that, I believe in Eva’s blog about a year ago. Will try to see if I can dig out more.
I do understand Bela (GPP)’s nervous reaction. The use of the Arpad-flag as a revolutionary symbol is rather new.
Viking,
Joe came up with Mandela as his guidance in the wilderness you cherry picked the Finnish conflict that lasted from January 27 to May 15, 1918 that is less than 4 month.
The Bolshevik rule lasted decades, since Bela Kun until today and massacred, imprisoned hundred of thousands of people.
Not a single Commie criminal is held to account, instead they were given cushy business deals or pension. Are you really blind to your surrounding? Cant you just see the popular hatred against Gyurcsany and the MSZP? Do you believe I am the only single person who oppose this Marxist regime?
Do you believe your own propaganda according to which there is a mass support for these renamed Commies?
Do you believe we should stop hunting down Nazi war criminals in the Amazons and putting them those “frail old men” on trial after 60 years? Should we forgive Mengele and his assistant?
Should we absolve the Commies of their crimes? Have you ever asked one of their victim about it?
You are in .Hu to make MONEY, pal! – stop pontificating morality, pretending to be one Hungarian among 10 million. You would move to China just as eagerly if you smelled the loot over there. You revealed yourself: FIDESZ is bad (for my business) Commies are good (for my business).
Bela (GPP): “The Bolshevik rule lasted decades, since Bela Kun until today and massacred, imprisoned hundred of thousands of people.”
Hallo! Knock-knock, anyone home? Read that sentence one more time – Where did Horthy disappear, where did the Arrow Cross Party vaporize?
Bela Kun’s Hungarian Soviet government only lasted for 133 days, falling on August 1, 1919.
Horthy: Regent of Hungary during the interwar years and throughout most of World War II, serving from March 1, 1920 to October 15, 1944. That makes 24,5 years in my calendar.
Bela (GPP): “You are in .Hu to make MONEY, pal!”
No, I am not. I live here. I make 80% of my money by working abroad, taking home money to this country officially, paying tax etc. More than what you do.
I rest my case. This will keep me laughing all night.
Viking,
Have you ever heard the name of Rakosi?
From 1945-1956 = 11 years
Kadar (hangings) and successors : 1956-1989 = 33 years
The Commie Youth boss + years
A total of at least 45 years of Commie rule that you simply ignore:
Why is that?
Not even hanging of the legitimate gov. counts in your twisted radical mind?
Why is that?
Viking,
“Kossuth for some reason did not like the Arpad-flag”
I think the most obvious reason was because it was a royalist symbol, and he was trying to establish a republic, hence the tricolour which has been the form of republican revolution since the Dutch war of independence in the sixteenth century.
One thing I don’t understand is why the Hungristas don’t wish to reestablish the Hungarian Monarchy. In would make sense of the desire to reclaim the territory of the Hungarian Kingdom, and their claim to be Arpád’s people. This incoherence in their position makes me think they simply neo-nazi’s, disguising their true agenda (racial self aggrandizement) with nationalist fervour.
PS Béla, as well as being a conservative, a moderate nationalist, I am also a monarchist!
Bela (GPP): “The Bolshevik rule lasted decades, since Bela Kun until today and massacred, imprisoned hundred of thousands of people.
Bela at July 29, 2008 10:39 PM”
Bela (GPP): “My point is this: the latent civil war that started in 1919 with the Communist takeover now several generation old like the Basque, IRA or many European conflicts.
Bela at July 29, 2008 7:12 PM”
You make 2 claims here that are totally false:
- The Bela Kun Regime lasted 133 days
- The Civil War finished when Bela Kun fled Hungary and Romanian troops occupied Budapest.
Lovely is it not – Romanians, your best friend, allowed Horthy to come to power.
Please look up the definition of “Civil War” or come back with arguments that support you, like the US Civil War did not finish 1865, it is still going on.
Also, could you give any more info on your statement that “massacred, imprisoned hundred of thousands of people”. I assume you mean the victims are Hungarians, but several 100.000?
We are eagerly waiting on a substantial argument and not just a lot of rappakalja (Swedish word loaned from some other language, forgot which one, but I think you get the meaning).
Adrian D,
Being a sensible person I am of course a Republican…
You are probably correct with the Dutch theme. The Hungarian flag has its origins in the national republican movements of the 18th-19th century (concerning its form, the TriColour) and in the Hungary of the Middle Ages (concerning its colors).
Folklore of the romantic period attributed the colors to virtues:
- red for strength,
- white for faithfulness,
- green for hope.
Alternatively,
- red for the blood spilled for the fatherland,
- white for freedom,
- green for the land, for the pastures of Hungary.
The Red-White-Green TriColour has emerged as sign of national sovereignty during the 1848/49 revolution against the Habsburgs. After the defeat, the flag was prohibited by the Austrian Emperor.
As you, I cannot find any reference to the Arpad-flag used by the Hungarian Republican Movement. I do not think it was visible during the 1956 uprising either, or anyone has any pictures/statements on that?
So the Arpad-flag, as being used today, is a symbol of the only Hungarian Kings that existed. The remaining they had, like Sweden, was imported from abroad. So we are remembering something that have been dead since around 1300.
The growing bourgeoisie class formed the core of the Hungarian Republican Movement and of course they chose a another symbol to rally around. That is the symbol we use today.
The Arpad-flag symbolizes today, what? Definitely *not* the Hungarian Republic and the Heroes of 1848/49.
Viking,
as a conservative I should point out that you are civic-ly the product of the Kingdom of Sweden, and in rejecting it you are biting the hand that has fed you.
To get back to Béla and his observation “This blog is essentially a political forum where ideologies clash sometime rather vituperatively.”
I think that constitutional monarchies are a lot less riven by factionalism than republics, compare the US and the UK, they have virtually the same constititional arrangements except for the monarchical element. Nobody rubbishes the Queen the way they rubbish George Bush. I think also that constitutional monarcharies have been able to survive the impact of both liberalism and socialism on their political arrangements without the revolution and civil-war that has blighted the rest of Europe. A monarchy protects the state from too much politics. Perhaps if the Hungarians had a monarch, their politics would be less scary, and more productive.
Adrian D,
Or, you can see it like this – Countries where the Bourgeois class did not overthrow the Monarchy continue to live a more stable life.
The 64.00 USD question is though – Was the Bourgeois class week, or the forces that supported the Monarchy smarter and included the Bourgeois class in governing the country?
So, instead of a Revolution, like in the US, we have a slow negotiated settlement where the aristocracy accepted less influence, like in the UK or Sweden.
Of course the US is a bad example, then it was just a colony full of criminals. Cannot ask them to make a clever decision, right?
So, who do you propose should be King and Queen for a United Federal Europe?
Viking says: “Of course the US is a bad example, then it was just a colony full of criminals. Cannot ask them to make a clever decision, right?”.
Australia was a colony full of criminals.
The US is a (once free) country full of criminals today.
The decision to break away from the rotting British Empire was a pretty good one. Slow was not an option.
The US is number one. You commies are a big stinking pile of #2.
Stan,
It was a joke to Adrian D. We know that you miss that human thing called humor.
On the other hand being on the subject, the European Immigrants that swarmed over the American Continent, was of course no criminals. Killing indigenous people has never been a crime.
When you meet Bela (GPP) you can always ask him when Hungarians became an indigenous people.
Amazing discovery:
Saying that Europeans are whites and historically Christians is racist slur.
The idiots took over the asylum!
Bela (GPP): “Saying that Europeans are whites and historically Christians is racist slur.”
Now you are lying again! I never wrote that and you never wrote that.
To quote you again (3rd time):
“To put it bluntly Europe belongs to the White Christian people of prestigious culture and National History and Third Worldly scumbags better stay clear.
Bela at July 29, 2008 2:56 PM”
You need a lesson in what is racist in the above statement?
Next time try to keep the same thread, it makes it easier for people to follow. We know with your confused mind you do not have a problem with that either, but others may have.
Finally your closing statement “The idiots took over the asylum!” is hilarious. You are suppose to be inside. Of course it worries us, if you have “taken over” control of the asylum. Maybe we need to send in the Rebisz to restore order?
Viking,
Next time you attempt to make a history related joke, please put a warning sign next to it.
Your interpretation of history is full of funny errors, and we may don’t know if you’re serious or not.
It’s hard to tell who’s really “indigenous” in Europe. It doesn’t matter. Hungarians have spent more than a thousand years here, we built a country from scratch, so we have as much right as any other nation to call ourselves native Europeans if we want to.
Now if we allow the smugglers to guard the borders of Europe, we may end up like the indians in the US. Unchecked waves of immigrants from Asia and Africa will destroy our civilization, our values and our way of living. It’s unacceptable, even your kind of mindless liberals should be able to figure out why.
Viking,
I said “latent” civil war between totalitarian Communist and their opposition and that struggle is still on even though your comrades believe that they achieved total victory. It is a moot question that the Commie genocide resulted in death of 10.000 or 100.000 people: in small countries less, in the Soviet Union millions. I remember that hundreds of thousands (yes!) were deported to the countryside from Budapest alone, ask about “kitelepitések”. What is your say?
Kitoro eberseggel: A budapesti kitelepitesek hiteles tortenete
http://www.amazon.co.uk/
Why are you passing over 45 + years of Commie rampage that happened in our lifetime: the Camps at Recsk, Allampuszta, Vac etc.
After that the Kadar terror, hangings, prison terms, my # was EA 2140, why are you covering up these crimes?
Still why didn’t you explain the 45+ years of Bolshevik rule in .Hu? What Horthy in Portugal has got to do with the Rakosi-Kadar regime?
It appears to me you are a Commie shill, an apologist for the murderers: You never ever tried to denounce those animals instead you concoct incongruous subjects to deflect attention from the real thing.
Please pass on my greetings to Klara APRO, Mrs.Gyurcsany.
Regards GPP a.k.a. EA 2140
Stan: “It’s hard to tell who’s really “indigenous” in Europe.”
No, just check the definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples) and the list on (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_indigenous_peoples).
Stan: “Hungarians have spent more than a thousand years here, we built a country from scratch, so we have as much right as any other nation to call ourselves native Europeans if we want to.”
Stan, now you are a Zionist? How else should we interpret “built a country from scratch”. It was empty? It was not, before you came there were people belonging to East-Rome and Jews here.
The building part you had a lot of help from the surrounding people when you decided that it was more fun to do agriculture than riding around.
Finally: “the smugglers to guard the borders of Europe”. I assume you mean that Hungary is part of the Schengen nowadays? You should differ between EU and Schengen.
Please, if you find any “funny errors” feel free to expose them, so we can have a laugh.
Viking,
“Or, you can see it like this – Countries where the Bourgeois class did not overthrow the Monarchy continue to live a more stable life.”
I don’t think this idea is born out by British or Dutch History. Charles I was definitely executed by predominantly bourgeois parliament, after a few years of ‘fractious’ parliamentarian and Cromwellian rule they invited his son, Charles II back. The Dutch threw off their Spanish monarch to form a republic only to accept a Dutch monarch some 250 years later. See Hungary, there is a precedent for a return to monarchy. Not to mention Juan Carlos in Spain.
The problem with USA illustrates the need for a constituitonal monarchy, the American colonists had no representation so George III was effectively an absolute monarch to them, even so many royalists migrated to Canada to remain under the British yoke. Subsequently, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and even South Africa were treated more respectfully. The Queen remains head of state in all but the last, who decided instituting apartheid was more enticing than remaining British.
Bela (GPP): “I said “latent” civil war between totalitarian Communist and their opposition and that struggle is still on even though your comrades believe that they achieved total victory.”
OK, so we have i Civil War waiting to start again. Wars are violent, Civil Wars are even more violent. So, the question would then be:
In today’s Hungary would you welcome armed/violent attacks on the ruling regime?
Simple question, simple answer. Just a clear Yes or No.
Viking,
“In today’s Hungary would you welcome armed/violent attacks on the ruling regime?”
It’s illegal to make statement that might incite, advocate, promote, or support violence on public forum.
Regards, EA 2140
Mistaken poster identity: reply
is from Bela.
Bela (GPP): “It’s illegal to make statement that might incite, advocate, promote, or support violence on public forum.”
Maybe if you are living in the US. I notice that you do not answer NO, so I think we can conclude that you mean yes.
Father So son, are you going to make me proud by showing the world what a great Hungarian you are? You have told me that this government is made up of the same commies that killed so many innocent Hungarians? Hungarians by the thousands. The same commies who have killed millions around the world?
Son, you have said, “The only message is that you rotten mother f..k communist murder f..k off, we are not afraid of you anymore. This is the symbol of our nation not your f…g red star and hammer and sickle.
Enough of f.ing commie terror, we hate you bastard, and we do what we want to do. All of you are illegitimate lying f..ing cesspool of excrement and the Turul symbolizes a Nation that is awakening.
So, son, what will you do? Will you make me and the memories of the hero’s of ’48 and ’56 proud?
Son “It’s illegal to make statement that might incite, advocate, promote, or support violence on public forum.”
Father In that case, go to bed. You disappoint me very much. I didn’t realize my son is a blowhard.
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great Post!!
@ all
What happened to the bird?
I tried to figure it out on my own but could not find the outcome on a google search
This is the closest link I found but it does not tell the outcome
http://esbalogh.typepad.com/hungarianspectrum/2008/07/that-cursed-statue-of-an-eagle.html
BTW – what is the point of these weird postings by the likes of “Australian TV on line”? – they bring up old discussions which I find interesting but what is the reason for these postings? Advertising a website?
@olga: Don’t know what happened to the bird; my guess, however, is that it’s still there. As for the stupid comment above, yeah, it’s goddamn comment spam. And the worse thing is that I think it may be done *manually*, because we have a pretty great spam-blocker. Good grief.
@ Erik
Thanks -
The spam is annoying but I try to see “the glass half full” – gives me a chance to read old postings. Yes, it’s all about me, the only child syndrome.
Glad you survived your cold and it appears I did not kill you after all with the rum and tea advice
(courtesy of Law)
take care
Hi, Olga!
So you’re still here on this crazy site, glad to have you back!
I also survived a cold, being fed “mulled wine” by my wife – usually I prefer my neighbour’s dry “Olasz Riszling” in a cool glass …
Cheers to everybody!
Hi Wolfi
Happy New year.
I have a rotten cold and home most of the day – thus
I am reading my favourite website.
Nothing really interesting going on politically in Canada.
@Olga: I travel home that way most days and its still there, covered in loving wreathes and fresh flowers.
The district mayor Pokorni Zoltán keeps finding various stalling tactics – which isn’t difficult – to postpone its removal. Last July he had worked out he only needed to stall the whole thing for 16 month to start the ball rolling all afresh:
http://www.origo.hu/itthon/20090615-turulszobor-xii-kerulet-elodazna-a-bontast-pokorni.html
I did read something about this a few months back saying that yet another legal ruling had said that it really, really, really, really should be removed. No timetable, no-one named as responsible for such an action etc… And anyway the size of the fines are pitiful and the residents of District XII foot the bill – which most of them are happy to.
Don’t expect it ever to move until the price of base metals goes through the roof and some Hungarian entrepreneur nicks it for scrap – nothing else is likely to shift it.
On cold ‘remedies’ I’d recommend a Laphroaig whiskey toddy with ginger, clove and lemon. Terrible thing to do to Laphroaig, but the peaty taste is homely and comforting – turf fires and all that.
The pious bird of good omen spreads its wings and dives deep beneath the icy waters of the Hungarian
sea. But, alas, no fishy treasure to be found just
full fathom five of an empty chest..
@ Vandorlo
Thanks for the article and the picture. Not an attractive looking bird I must say – your remark about the scrap metal was funny.
I never ignore your opinions but will make an exception about the cold remedy. Appreciate the thought but it sounds disgusting.
Cold cures! Anyone got an answer to this country’s
pneumonia?