Buried in the news from Saturday’s demonstrations by the left and the participants of the Peppermint-striped Budapest Destruction Brigade was a small thing said by Orbán Kolompár, (left), the head of Hungary’s National Gypsy Authority. Even though it only received a small mention in Index.hu‘s minute-by-minute update, Kolompár, indirectly referencing the poet Sándor Petőfi, said the flag “is our historical flag, and we’ll remove the shame from it.” (The reference is fairly obvious in Hungarian.) At first receiving whistles, once people understood what Kolompár was doing, they quieted. Indeed, what Kolompár did is something I’ve waited to see for a long time.
In many respects, if the flag is going to have the taint of fascism removed from it, figures like Kolompár who cannot be accused of being a closet far-rightist and other figures of the left have to stand next to it. Despite this facetious piece on how to make the Árpád-striped flag kinder and gentler, there is a reason that people on the far-right carry it. A fascist flag used the Árpád-striped flag as its base, and today, nothing gets the left more upset than seeing someone raise that flag. To be honest, I really wonder how high the percentage of those carrying the flag do it not because they identify with far-right ideology, but simply because of the left’s knee-jerk reaction if it’s even simply glimpsed?
If the flag is ever going to be “rehabilitated,” it will be through the actions of people like Kolompár, meaning someone who cannot be accused of subscribing to the beliefs you find among those who think throwing beer cans at a cultural festival in Nagymező utca is an appropriate expression of patriotism. The more leaders of the left hoist the flag, not only will the taint on the flag diminish, but at the same time, it will piss off the far-right, since one of their favored symbols, precisely because a fascist flag was based off it, is no longer as cool. And what better way to infuriate the far-right, than by taking their “toys” away.
Exactly. Good point made about the rehabilitation of symbols that have become appropriated by extremists. It was a similar situation for most of the 70′s and 80′s in the UK with the flag of St George (the English national flag). It was used by skinheads, the BNP (British National Party), football hooligans and other less than friendly elements of society (like the far-right terrorist organisation Combat 18) and thus started to cause the same knee-jerk reaction in those from the more moderate parts of society. But then something happened, I don’t know what but something definately seemed to change, and we started seeing the St George flag being used at more sporting events by normal families (not hooligans), mainstream politicians started being seen with it and the image started being used almost as much as the Union Jack, at least in England. 20 years on and although it still hasn’t been completely taken back from the far-right, it still causes a few shivers for those of us who remember the underground urban race wars of the early 80′s, but it’s getting there. After the Arpád flag’s connection with the Arrow Cross it may take a bit longer to rehabilitate but it should happen. It must be a great shame for many true Hungarian patriots to see one of their most ancient symbols being used, once again, as a symbol of division and hatred by small-minded bigots and ignoramuses.
The fascists stole the Árpád flag from the rest of the nation – time for the rest of us to steal it back again. Thanks Kolompár!
Like many others, I have been saying this for a while. Stop banging on about getting rid of symbols, embrace them, it will take away all their power.
Wonderful news, I’ve been waiting for something like this to happen, let’s hope it continues and isn’t just an isolated incident…
Mr. Kolompar, I am far from BP right now, but if we are ever knowingly in the same city, I would like to buy you a drink
Ah Yes ,how everybody loves Mr.Kolompar for washing Hungarys ORIGINAL flag, the same man under investigation for mysteriously making 13 million forints of Government Gypsey aid money disappear !!
Still full credit to him in one sense,after all he only did what our ruling elite do everyday–steal,lie and cheat–He learns fast !!!
Answer that you liberal lovers,you who seem happy to see your nation sink to the worst in the EU thanks to your ex-commie friends .
My dear Ricsi,
I’m a “liberal lover” (or at least that’s what the ladies tell me) and I may have a few “ex-commie” friends, but most are not; and, like probably most people who read these pages, I am not a native Hungarian and therefore it is not “my nation”. I am however, always disappointed by the global misappropriation of symbols by far-right groups, and think this symbolic gesture is a step in the right direction for Hungary. If Kolompár is guilty of any corruption (and I’ve no idea if he is or not), that’s irrelevant to the discussion. History tells us that many of those who lead against the tide have chequered pasts, but it doesn’t diminish the worthiness or otherwise of the message they are sending.
I think even the most ardent right-winger could see that the peacefulness of the Charta and Roma demonstrations last week contrasted sharply with the thuggish actions of our friends over in Szabadság tér. Even HírTV, despite its best efforts, couldn’t portray it any differently.
My dear Toby !!!
On the contrary,a man trying to attract attention and sympathy in this way whilst facing charges of “washing” 13 million HUF supposedly to help his kind,smacks of sheer hypocrisy-does it not ???
This is not his chequered past we are talking about but the present–hence my comment stands.
As for the demo–where you there ?? Did you see the few deliberate yobbs start the trouble,nothing to do with the real Jobbik parade.
Ask yourself who stands to benefit ???
For your info I do live here,am native and consider it my country.
Toby,
You don’t think that the fact that Kolompár (and his wife) are under investigation for embezzlement (now for 150 million) tarnishes even slightly his credibility to wash clean anything?
I see Csipke neglected to cover this story.
Who came up with the idea anyway? Kolompár? Oh please, they stuck a flag in his hand and told him what to say. The man is a pawn, as are the vast majority of the gypsies (particularly their leaders, who have been bought outright)for the MSZP and SZDSZ, who couldn’t in the least care about them or their predicament, which is sad, because there are many who desperately need, and I dare say deserve, real help. Kolompár’s one statement recently that was actually intelligent: “what gypsies need most is work.” This statement got little coverage.
Re: the demonstration. Funny, the so-called liberals rush out to condemn violence against the gypsies but never violence, very often brutal, committed by them against Hungarians. Or even violence committed by the police against Hungarians.
Only in Hungary.
Well said Tunde !!
Though I fear Toby is yet another of those who make sarcastic comments without full knowledge of the facts,and the hides away when somebody dares contradict him.
The flag in question was the ORIGINAL flag of Hungary,and even today the president is sworn in under this flag as well as the national tri-colour,
but never mind,washing it was a good publicity stunt for the liberals ! LOL
Tunde,
It is not my job to give a full biography for everyone I ever mention, especially when clicking on the tag for Orban Kolompar will lead you to the embezzlement story. It’s the second one from the top.
Zoltán
You say it is not your job to mention the embezzlement case,yet you are quick to mention Pétofi and fascism etc…. with no apparent problem.
This is not even the “Cigány” flag ,but the original House of Árpád flag,under which our president is sworn in ,even today,together with the national tri-colours.
To praise his “washing” without even a single sentence mentioning his “money washing” is a little suspicious and kind of like shooting yourself in the foot ! NO ???
This pathetic media exercise is yet another example of dumb Gypsies been manipulated by the real powers that be,for their own agenda–still good luck to Kolompár for embezzling millions,he learnt fast from the Gyurcsány gang !!!
I like the Arpad flag, not because I am nostalgic for 20th century fascism, but because I love Hungarian symbols that predate our founding King Stephen and the crown that symbolises him and his “reforms”. Stephen disarmed the Hungarians, forced 98% them into feudal work slavery,forced a religious conversion upon his people and gave a third of the country to the priests. The small land magnate class that he empowered proved over the centuries incapable of defending the country from serious enemies. No I don’t like his crown, with it’s crooked cross (talk about a sign from God that all is not well!)His feudal legacy lasted a 1000 years and held back our political, economic and military progress. He helped turn Hungary into a “banana republic on the Danube”; much thanks for that.
The red white and green does not float my boat; those colors are too lighthearted and cheerful and are thus not reflective of much of our sad history. Almost no country that has adopted that tricolor has achieved much in economic and military dominance. More appropriate to a festival rather than as a symbol of a country.
Maybe we Hungarians have no symbols that we can all rally around. Our symbols are all flawed or carry awful historical baggage and past misuse.
Ricsi,
You may think you know where my politics stand, but you are mistaken. If you don’t like the pieces I write, then write your own.
Zoltán-
Please tell me were I mentioned your politics ???
I neither know nor care about that ,but when somebody writes an article using terms like “Burning Budapest Brigade” and praising a Gypsy king who carries the Roma flag but feels fit to wash an original MAGYAR flag,as well as been under serious embezzlement investigation—well it brings out the question of honest journalism.
A little biased are we ????
Obviously not towards the right !!
As for writing myself,I prefer to watch others and point out the error of their ways ,and anyway I am very active in other ways.
The only thing I will admit to is that I butted into your comment with Tunde,another like minded person-so I know she will not mind !!
A Hungarian gypsy cleansing a certain Hungarian flag under which his people have been persecuted sends a powerful message to everyone. It doesn’t matter if he is under investigation or even guilty. The message and messenger are two separate issues. This message was long overdue since the rest of Hungary didn’t do anything other than bicker about its usage of this symbol. Regardless of its long history and whether you like it or not, the symbol was misused in history, and as such will be associated with its misuse by those affected. It doesn’t help that the current flag bearers bear many common characteristics with the misusers.
Ricsi,
The blog pieces are not serious journalism. They should all be taken with a grain of salt of and you should know they are opinionated. The straight news is at the top and in the right column. And let me state again that you do not know where my personal politics lie. Having a dislike for the far-right doesn’t make me any more anti-right than it makes me pro-left.
And I wouldn’t call them the Budapest Destruction Brigade if things didn’t get damaged whenever they make their presence known.
Zoltán
Once again I will repeat that I am not interested in your politics,clear ??
As for professional journalism–how could I even assume it could be after the praise you give to man under investigation for embezzling millions intended to help his own people ???
Thanks
KEF
“It doesnt matter if he is under investigation or even guilty ” ????????
Are you serious ???
Stealing money intended to help HIS OWN people .
How naive can you be Sir ??
Ricsi, You may consider me naive, but that only reflects the limitations of your views. Stealing from ones people (or govt) is not something I condone, and I believe it should be punished where appropriate. The investigation should proceed as per normal to determine if he is guilty or not. If he had spoken about public corruption, then the message would have been cheapened (even if he was subsequently found not guilty). However, his words/actions were about a symbol which is becoming a significant issue for all Hungarians. How would you suggest rehabilitating this symbol which many in Hungary have come to regard as oppressive? Stubbornly retorting it isn’t oppressive is not a mature solution, and doesn’t solve anything. Would you and your friends have been happier if some other high profile gypsy or Jew did that? Can you perform some actions which would help appease them? Wouldn’t you be happier if by the performance some words/actions/ceremony, all Hungarians could proudly fly this flag once again, or are you happy to have groups of people fighting against this symbol?
If one took an extreme view of what you said, we would be discounting or disregarding everything said by almost everyone in Hungary. If you consider that in several years in Hungary, I have never, ever met a single adult Hungarian who has not given a bribe to a policeman, politician, county office or company? Is this also not corruption and stealing?
KEF
You are boring me with your continuous “clean the flag” rhetoric,The flag is the original,it is clean,it is one of two under which the president and pm are sworn in —or are they also neo-nazi’s going by your logic !! (ex-commie lying,cheating Gyurcsány sworn in under “tainted” flag !!)
Time to get real and see a publicity stunt as the hypocrisy that it is !
Goodbye
@Zoltan,
Seems like your article is very biased, no balance in it at all, professional journalist will always write a balanced view to show both sides of the argument, how have the current MSZP and the Gypsies contributed to the Hungarian nation? The fact that they lie and steal!!it dosent take Einstein research to discover this..
Jobbik are using the Symbol of Arpad flag as a way to raise the spirits of the Hungarians in a postive program of Volunteers, they have helped many regional areas’s of Hungary during the floods, food distribtuion, lifting the moral of the Hungarians whom should be first priority in there own nation not treated like second class citizens…
Just stop, look and listen to the real truth..
My grandfather once made a very wise comment on the media and journalism as a whole. He said that there were two actual, indisputable facts in every newspaper. The date and the price.
All journalism, especially professional journalism, is just opinion with a varying amount of evidence to support it. It’s up to the reader to use their judgement to discern the truth.
@Ricsi – Simple minds are easily bored.
KEF
So you have to resort to personal insults,do you realise how pathetic you have just made yourself look ??? Of course not,your type think one line rhetorical answers are clever.
You can not actually debate me or even condemn my points with accuracy so you resort to insults !!
Lovely job matey !!! (sarcasm)
Good bye child
Ricsi, au contraire, there is nothing personal or insulting. You have failed to address how you would solve the issues of the stained flag. Banging your drum loudly repeating that it is not stained requires no depth of thought. Coming up with genuine solution, however, does. The question is not whether it is a historical flag (I do not dispute this), but whether it can be used proudly. The solution does not lie in larger or more violent demonstrations. What is your solution?
@KEF
Not one of Jobbiks Demonstrations have been violent, they have been peaceful.. 20th Sept was not organised by the Jobbik.
If Jobbik is so disorganized and unprofessional to let itself be “used” by others resulting in violent demonstrations, perhaps it should stick to “flood relief” and “food distribution” programs. I’m sure no one in Hungary will object.
@ KEF
Police used the illegal tear Gas and Violence. Provocating the crowd. Why did they cage off the demonstrators?
Would have been peaceful otherwise.
So, the jobbik demonstration WAS associated with violence. The only dispute, is who started it, and how they responded. If I understand you correctly, you’re implying that the police organized this violent event with “illegal(?) teargas” and batons, and that jobbik simply decided to attend this, and unknowingly gathered in the centre of the caged area.
All things considered, dont you think it would be a good idea if the jobbik leaders showed a lot more fore-sight and strategy by not associating and attend these violent “police events”, and organizing more food and flood relief programs. I dont recall the police provocating violence at these.
At the next demonstration, jobbik could publicly just say, hey, we’re not associating or attending this. That’s a fidesz event or something. We’re gonna distribute food at some orphanage or disaster area. Hell, I might even attend that.
KEF
Obviously you and I will never agree regarding our illustrious original flag !!
As for your latest comments regarding Jobbik and violence ,please tell me of any violent demonstration in Budapest between the years 1956 and 2006 when Gyurcsany was caught having lied and cheated to steal an election .Bearing in mind the fact that Jobbik was formed in 2003 —yet no violence until after Gyurcsány is caught out 2006.
Perhaps you should address the issue of who is the REAL cause of these annual demonstrations rather than blaming Jobbik for the violence that arises.
Just a thought ???
@KEF
There was an investigation into the gas used from the 20th September 2008 demonstrations, tests results of the tear gas used contained high levels of CR which have been banned internationally and have been used on our Hungarian civilians, previously this was used in Sourh Africa and many people had contracted cancer and died!! Now they are poisioning the Hungarian people what kind of animals have we got in Government you seriously want me to side with an Israel trained Inkal police force that recommend this poison on Hungarians, you are a sick Puppy!!
@Ricsi – we can agree that the flag is original, and illustrious for Hungarians for most of its history. However, it is not I, but many of your own compatriots which have an issue with the flag for some time. So, since shouting at each other have no effect, then only thing is to have a mature dialogue to see what can be done to make it more acceptable to everyone (meaning all Hungarians). Many countries have done this with polarised populations, and when done sincerely, it has helped to a large extent. It doesn’t matter to me what you do to your flag, but to insist there is no issue appears ridiculous since we can see the physical results around us, and the overall effect on the country’s progress.
As far as violent demonstrations since 2006, there are several democratic ways to legitimately remove a government which does not represent the people wishes (whether it lies, or shoots people, or uses banned chemicals). If the government survives the vote or legal suit, then whether a silent, vocal or violent minority likes it or not, it continues until the next election.
@ hotpaprika – I dont know enough about CR gas to discuss this except that my initial research shows it is quite potent, but not banned. I’m not asking you to support anything. As above, if it is banned or illegal, take the govt to the European Court of Human Rights.
It won’t matter soon, these Jewish Bolshevik gangsters who are in power now will be tried by the people once they have left office, they will dangle from nooses from the lamp posts on vaci and kiraly utcas.
Gandi: “will be tried by the people once they have left office, they will dangle from nooses from the lamp posts”
No contradiction here? People who leave office voluntarily will be hanged. Dream on, Gandi. You lost all touch with reality.
When your friends cannot even organise a proper riot you cannot even fix a noose.
Hotpaprika: “There was an investigation into the gas used from the 20th September 2008 demonstrations, tests results of the tear gas used contained high levels of CR which have been banned internationally”.
Could you please enlighten us on these investigations and on the international ban? Is it banned in the EU or just that the US does not use it for riot control? Was it not developed by the British and used on Northern Ireland?
My Jobbik friends have just laughed at the previous use of teargas by the Hungarian Police, then many of the involved hooligans have developed techniques to handle, especially the type the Police uses to spray them with (the handheld canisters). The Police has clearly been needing some stronger chemical. If the latest type is the best one is questionable, but what do you suggest to be used against rioting roma in the countryside?
In the late 1980s, CR was used in the townships in South Africa. It caused some fatalities, particularly among children Republican groups in northern Ireland have alleged that British Army and Royal Ulster Constabulary units used CR gas against Republican prisoners.
The British government is coming under renewed pressure to admit a cancer-causing gas was used on republican prisoners during a 1974 Long
Kesh riot.
A prison warder on duty on the day has said that he now has lung cancer despite being a non-smoker and a non-drinker.
He also says that a number of his colleagues who inhaled the gas fired from British army helicopters have died prematurely from cancer despite leading healthy lives.
Republican prisoners have always insisted CR gas was used to quell the
October 16 riot.
Medical research shows that toxins in the gas cause cancer. Unlike CS gas, CR gas is banned from use by US police forces or military because
of its cancer-causing potential.
The British government admits CR gas was being kept in Long Kesh and that clearance for its use had been granted. However, it denies using
it on POWs.
A fifth of the 300 republican prisoners who were gassed have since died or are suffering from cancer.
Because of its carcinogenic properties, the United States does not utilize CR for riot control. The U.S. military classification for this chemical agent is combat class chemical weapon causing serious side effects for humans.
Viking Banned in US correct..
@Gandi. Good to see you kuruc goons have found the Shift button. Shame you still can’t use it properly properly. Or spell people’s names correctly.
Further to your point regarding hanging people from lamp posts in Vaci and Kiraly utcas. Not the best place to be leaving bodies hanging around, a corpse on Vaci would just be sold to some passing mug tourist within five minutes and on Kiraly it would be converted into an art installation and provide endless pondering opportunites for your aforementioned Jewish Bolshevik gangsters. I propose hanging them from one of the bridges so they could provide target practice for pilots during Red Bull Day, sorry, St.Istvan’s Day.
@hotpaprika – I already knew this information from wikipedia and the hearsay which I considered superficial and hence “not enough” for a serious debate. By wiki standards, this is a rather weak article with no references to be considered even remotely credible to be acepted in a journal, conference, or court.
@KEF
What more do you require an article from one of your LEFT wing Zionist Lecturers. The main point is CR is a dangerous GAS not to be used on people, DANGEROUS GAS !! why would a US government ban it if they could use it you Buff Head!!
Apparently it appears that you know even less about CR gas than I do. I did say it was potent, but it is not banned in the US. The US military uses it.
I dont know any left-wing zionists, but if you cant take a little gas, or a few rubber bullets, you should stay home! Am I right-wing enough for you, now?
But Hotpaprika, what do you suggest to use against the rioting Roma on the countryside? Pepperspray?
Electric fences ?????
Regarding methods of crowd control, try this stuff:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4541947.html
Super funky, makes a riot into an Ibiza style foam rave in seconds.
One thing I’d like to point out regarding the topic of using widely dispersed gas as a crowd/riot control technique. The Hungarian riot police are far too trigger happy when it comes to using it and this is why it causes such a problem in a densely populated space like Budapest city centre. From what I’ve seen of their techniques there’s room for massive improvement, for example there is little use of snatch squads or coordinated horse charges. Too much use of gas, water-tanks and shield walls. No early response to contain the situation, just build force a long way away and play cat and mouse for hours. This ‘crowd driving’ shield wall tactic is what causes the major damage in riots in BP as it gives rioters the space to inflict property damage. It also caused the massive riots in Oct. 2006 when the police drove a small group of a few 100 thugs into the 80,000 people opposition sponsored protest also happening that day. The result, a small containable conflict developed into widespread chaos involving several 100 thousand people right across the city centre, causing extensive damage and giving us the eternal image of a bloke looking like Rutger Hauer (well at least while he was doing) driving a tank around Deák tér.
And yes, my last point completely destroyed my main argument re: police riot control. D’oh!
@viking
For Rioting Gypsies in the countryside? I believe they should be rounded up by a group of Pullies, they are sheep with a herd mentallity for the Budapest and Israel Zionists to gain votes, however sheep are a lot more civil then these gypsies..So maybe a few corgi dogs to nip them on the heel, there a gutless race..
Whatta hypocryte! The Arpad striped flag(as the
name indicates) originated from the Arpad House.
Unfortunately they died out long before the Gypos
sneaked in…
@viking,
wakie wakie, hands off snakie!! switch on your alarm clock you are in dream world!! EU is B/S!
Demagogue at last some intelligent comentary on this site. hotpaprika cannot even keep trace in which thread he is discussing in…
I agree with you about the snatch squads, technique very much developed by the UK, now very much implemented by the Danish Police. As I written since 2006, the Hungarian Police need a lot of training in planning and executing riot controls. They very much relay on stationary equipment, like water cannons, which draws up to 50 Officers each to protect from being burnt up.
On the 3rd and last night of riots in September 2006 the Police did try a bit of snatch tactics with a lot of Police Vans insteda of lorries and busses transporting 50-100 Officers. I believe they were rather successful. I do not know why they did not develop that method later. Could be that only REBISZ (special Budapest based riot and the most you can come to SWAT-type of police in Hungary) have had some training in that tactics.
To the others comments on how to deploy Police tacticts on rioting Roma in the countryside, I can just say you are a fucking bunch of racists and I hope the Police use good old CR down your throat next time you dare to go out and pollute the Budapest scene. Most of you are foreigners anyway, so which Hungarians do really care about you?