It must be “cucumber season” in Britain judging by the amount of coverage Hungary is receiving in The Sun these days. The subject of this week’s mock outrage exclusive is “top Euro neo-Nazi leader” Zoltán Füzessy, the Jobbik dude responsible for operating Jobbik.com the party’s actually rather dry and dull English-language website.
Although we are not fans of Jobbik, it is worth joining ranks with the Hungarian press to point out a few inaccuracies in the piece and make a case for defending Füzessy and his family against Rupert Murdoch’s evil empire:
- Füzessy is not vice-president of the party, or we would have heard of him. We think he holds the important post of Vice President of Foreign Affairs, aka webmaster with a grasp of English.
- Füzessy appears to act independently of his party, as evidenced by the recent “freaky suck-up to Russia” posted on the Jobbik.com.
- The “streams of bile-filled postings” in the forum were not written by Füzessy, although he should have moderated those that were really out of hand. In any case, the majority are probably no worse than the inane nonsense you are likely to find in the comments on this or any other English-language site about Hungary. But then “Anonymous Reader Stan Makes Fool of Himself on Website Forum” isn’t such an eye-catching headline.
- Jobbik is a registered political party and denies official links with the Magyar Gárda. This may be a moot point, but Jobbik is currently distancing itself from the “paramilitaries who dress in black uniforms like Hitler’s SS and has close ties to the British National Party”.
- Nick Griffen of the BNP did speak at the Jobbik rally last month, which makes him a bigger fool than the guys at Jobbik.
- “Millions in Hungary support us. Those who call us Nazi are just Communists.” This quote from Füzessy proves how deluded he and Jobbik are more than anything else. Hell, the Nazis vs. Communists thing went out with Mussolini, and where are those missing millions.
- Finally, a website can be operated from anywhere, what’s the big deal?
So, just to repeat, you don’t have to agree with Jobbik to disagree with this kind of “bile-filled” reporting.
Jobbik are not supporting Nazi regime, they support Hungarians for Better Hungary.. Typical smear program by the media!and who owns the Media?? as mentioned the Murdoch Elite Fox group, my God soon we will be having ducking and weaving from O’Reilly
What is more damaging here though is that for 90% of those Brits (that read this stuff) this will be all that they ever come to know and understand about Hungary, no matter how ill founded it is.
1st law of journalism: Never let truth get in the way of a good story.
1st law of social studies: Never underestimate the public’s ability to disappoint.
If the Sun is running with a theme then expect more of this stuff. They have to run themes because for most people the headlines act like the disembodied memory vessel for their readership’s thoughts.
Hah, the Sun who regularly runs with ‘Immigrants are destroying British values’ stories and tits on page 3 accusing a website of intolerance…I don’t rate their opinion highly. The bigger problem is the opinion of everyone else of Hungary (who heard of it at all) as backward, out-dated and more of a Balkan than central-Euroean state, which are far from unfounded. I said it before HP, the Hungarian right has so much to learn from the likes of FOX news, they represent Pulitzer prize winning journalism compared to Hir TV…has anyone seen the size of the screen behind Megyn Kelly during the election coverage?!
It’s not an easy task to expose the Media corruption, When people begin to awaken then the Elite controlled Media create false flag operation disasters! so we have to educate people there tactics so they wont be shocked into following there agenda, here is a interesting articale on the last US election http://www.jobbik.com/?p=206
@Hotpaprika: that article is about as ill-informed as it can possibly be (if this is the level of your education no wonder you think only you can see the ‘right’ way forward). Obama was backed precisely because he refused to take money from lobbyists. He even sent the money back. The article may have had a little foundation if we were talking about a fight between the Clintons and Bushes but that didn’t happen. It takes someone outside the system like Obama to teach people anew how democracy works. I’m just waiting for the same here.
Vandorlo,
“someone outside the system like Obama to teach people anew how democracy works”.
Candidates “outside the system” would not need to ask AIPAC approval. He went as far as making stupid statements such as:
“Jerusalem will remain the undivided capital of Israel”.
(Jerusalem is not internationally recognized as the capital, and it’s hardly “undivided”).
Obama then continued the suck-up:
“Let me be clear,Israel’s security is sacrosanct. It is non-negotiable.”
Outside the system? I don’t believe that. Outsiders don’t get to blow $600 million on their campaigns.
Obama may look different, but he’s just another puppet, controlled by Israel.
@Van
We continue to agree to disagree Van, you living in La La Land! If you honestly believe that Obama is going to make change then you must be still waiting for Santa to come down the chimney!
Well said Stan the man!
Ah yes ,the SUN paper, hardly the most intellectual read amongst the British media !
Believe me,the people who read this article will have forgotten about by the next day,when I was a child it was used to wrap up take away fish and chips,before EU law banned newsprint–nowadays I am told it is simply long distance truck drivers toilet paper for when they get caught short (apart from page 3 of course !)
Going over to the Obama “change” comments–no change is possible,even if he wanted to,which he does not. Two sides of the same coin,and now with a zionist war monger as adviser,and a zionist war monger as Sec. of defence, How about a US president putting US interests first,instead of some artificially created mid-east racist state ?
By the way,for those not familiar,the Sun’s equivalent in Hungary would probably be the Blikk paper.
Faye Faye alludes to an important problem that Hungarians have- and that is negative public perception abroad. We lack “good PR” (Public relations, or “propaganda” as it used to be known) It would be extremely unclever and unsophisticated of us to not take this factor into account. Perception counts for a lot, and can open (or slam shut) doors. No man is an island, and the same is true for a nation. If nations and peoples far mightier and richer than us take this sort of thing seriously, so should we.
The good news, is that it’s not that damn difficult to buy and achieve “good press”! Media outlets everywhere are whores, and respond to feeding and attention. They can be played! We can make the world like us and even sympathise with us! Peoples far less presentable than us have done this successfully in the past; it’s truly not rocket science.
How can we line up a better public relations offensive? Through leadership, lobbying and reach out. Let’s not let the likes of the Slovaks get the better of us in a matter like this! If the world doesn’t understand us or where we are coming from, we Hungarians will be in for a tough time in the future, and we will have few, if any, friends.
@Laszlo – I think you might have oversimplified the media. It is not so straightforward to buy influential PR which is lasting.In order to be effective,PR must be supported by sustained positive messages. Rioting, poor government, bad economy, bailouts, and poor relations with neighbours all undo positive PR. Slovakias PR is good because of positive developments within the country, the adoption of the Euro, & the image promoted by MNCs. My own country has benefited from positive PR, because we also realised that these captains of industry have more influence among leaders than Blikk, Sun, or even Le Monde, NYT, Guardian whose message is momentary. It is far better to focus on improving the underlying situation constructively, before working on the media. Slovakia, even if you dont like them, are seen positively by almost everyone outside Hungary, despite the fact that they have had meciar,slota etc in the past decade or so.
In a class I teach, you learn that a good experience is narrated to only 6 people, but a negative one is broadcast to 15 people. So, you have to work 2.5x as hard for the positive to counter any negative. With the few positive developments right now,you can imagine the magnitude of the negative publicity which has been created for Hungary.Buying PR is fleeting. You need to create it.
The (Hungarian) sanity you and FayeFaye bring to this site is far outweighed by the rabid rantings of Ricsi, HP & Stan. Their negative PR however goes far beyond this site.
@UJ
Trouble is you cant handle the truth shooting straight from the Hip! I admire the way Farkas Laci presents his comments, but the same message is being delivered by him as the rat pack you demise, what the real problem is that the media have all there prostitutes in programmed mode and they are very in tune on how to use tactics on protecting there agenda, so our main target would be exposing the people behind the Media and there overall Orwellian program.. It’s here we can nip at there heels!! but as soon as we get momentum they set off false flag missiles targeted at the Truth seekers.. They are introducing more ways of clamping down and restricting the freedom of information, even discussing this is labeling me as Terrorist or Nazi Fascist! People are being Brainwashed in a subliminal way. More people are awakening to the fraud, look at this site for example, all you have is a handful of followers now, and the only new recruits are enemies of Hungarians taking your side the Slovaks!! So your turning your back on Hungarians who want the truth about there homeland to be known to all! You are a traitor to the Hungarians!!
@HP- Thank you, however the impact of your words are not as gratifying, as you label everyone who disagrees with you a traitor. I would be more hooured (or humbled) if Laci, or Faye labeled me a traitor. You still fail to understand the difference between information, media and influence. “You nip at the media’s heels, but as soon as we gain momentum, they raise false flag missiles”. This shows you dont understand how to work the media, despite your previous sentence “that they are prostitutes”.
If you could think strategically instead of reactively, you’d understand that Laci and Faye would probably have better success of promoting YOUR vision for Hungary than you, Ricsi or Stan.
@UJ
The pimp is The Elite Zionists!
The issue is highlighting how the media works, it’s a well oiled machine, so we have to expose it’s process. Enormous task and challange so we have to be tactful, I am only a wee mortal, but together we can raise peoples awareness! United we stand!!
HP,
I agree, Zionists have managed to take advantage of their protected status amd grabbed all the important media, banking and political positions. Fighting them is like fighting the Israeli army in Palestine, throwing stones at tanks, and then watching your house and your family destroyed by warplanes. There are 44 Jewish members of the US congress. The New York TImes and Washington Post are openly zionist. The law, money and media are mostly under Jewish control in the US. We’re screwed.
What I just wrote above is all true, but it will get me the “antisemite” label and I’ll be out of the game. We must adopt different methods, keep smiling, hug your enemy while stabbing him in the back. It works better than honest outrage. I know that, but I’m a Hungarian rebel, and being a slime doesn’t appeal to me. So we’re screwed.
Stan, did you miss this from the above post?
“The “streams of bile-filled postings” in the forum were not written by Füzessy, although he should have moderated those that were really out of hand. In any case, the majority are probably no worse than the inane nonsense you are likely to find in the comments on this or any other English-language site about Hungary. But then “Anonymous Reader Stan Makes Fool of Himself on Website Forum” isn’t such an eye-catching headline.”
Your comments are rapidly heading towards to the realm of “out of hand”. We can only hope the hacks at The Sun aren’t reading this.
Adrian,
“Stan Makes Fool of Himself”, well I take it that’s your opinion, or you’re just trying to distance yourself and your blog from unorthodox posts (truth). Well, instead of calling me a fool, why don’t you make an effort to point out the error of my ways. Or just censor my posts if you find them embarrassing. Of course how will I ever learn then?
“The lunatic is in my head
you raise the blade, you make the change
you rearrange me ‘ till I’m sane
you lock the door
and throw away the key
there’s someone in my head but it’s not me”
@ Stan
The main thing is educating people friends etc with the Truth (Truth needs no laws to protect it!!) My heart agrees that we dont have to stoop to there level of corruption and control, one thing they cannot control is uncoditional Love, and we are demonstrating this amongst our collective consciousness helping awaken people, many people dont realise yet what its all about, all it takes is stepping upto the line’, which you have done, we way outnumber the Elite and I admire your truthfulness, Honesty and courage. Szebb Jovot!
Adrian
Stan,though he might dislike my politics,is actually a guy with his eyes wide open to the reality.
What did STAN say that is not true ??? In fact I would have gone further and highlighted the disproportionate zionist Jewish presence in ALL western democracies and especially here in Hungary–look at the main characters in Szdsz,Mszp the media owners etc…
Stan keep up the good work mate !! For someone to use your name when referring to a “SUN” article really shows how blind the “sheep” are today.So sad
Ricsi, Stan,
The point I am really making is that your comments are your own, not ours, even though they appear on this site – and provide a useful purpose in my opinion.
With regard to your opinions expressed here, there are many things people think of in the UK when they pick up a copy of The Sun, but “Zionist conspiracy” is not likely to be one of them.
Adrian
It’s not like our bad reputation is anything new…anyone remember reading crap about the “half-civilized barbaric Asiatic Magyar tribes” from German and Austrian 19th century writers? I sure do…
Adrian
You are actually right for once, when people pick up the Sun in the UK they are looking for primitive,cheap simple entertainment and gossip,then ,in the old days they used it for wrapping fish and chips in,now that’s forbidden so it is used as toilet paper for HGV drivers caught short ! (except for page3)
Good to see the Stun is maintaining it’s usual high standards for accurate and unbiased journalism. (This is a sarcastic comment in case no-one gets it).
For once those on the right and left here can agree that this rag of a tabloid is the equivalent of Blikk and that this article is primarily based aroubnd the ‘evil foreigner living here on benefits’ spin so beloved of the newspaper. I frankly doubt if they give a flying-monkeys-fuck about extremism, neo-Nazis or anything else to do with the politics of Hungary. Problem is, it’s the most widely read newspaper in Britain. But as Ricsi pointed out the readers will have forgotten very quickly what was said, except the part about whether he was living in Gravesend on benefits.
Gravesend. Poor chap. Terrible place to be living if you ask me. Grey, dull and quite ugly.
And yes, let’s hope the journos at the Stun don’t read this site. They’d have a field-day with what some of us lot say here.
Readers beware!
Well informed sources report that ‘Jobbik’ is actually a KGB front, hence the above referenced “freaky suck-up to Russia”.
Furthermore, syntax analysis reveals that Ricsi and Hotpaprika are, in fact, one and the same person. He is actually a money-hungry gypsy from Romania who is trying to embarrass real Hungarians with his antisemitic nazi antics.
Fuzessy is actually a Slovak.
Do not fall for their nonsense. They are agents of a fifth column trying to restore Russian dominance over Hungary at all cost.
Orban is already working to neutralize the damage they caused both to him, to Fidesz and Hungary in general.
Hello to everybody!
I am very stimulated by my interaction with you all, and the chance to talk policy and strategy. It encourages me to take the time and effort elsewhere to speak out and fight for Hungary! I have begun my opening shot in the international arena on our behalf. I am a regular contributor on the British Broadcasting Corporation’s website: http://www.bbc.co.uk, under “Have Your Say”. I also have been asked a number of times to participate in panel discussions on their radio and TV programs. I post under my Anglicised name Leslie Farkas.
I have submitted the following post to a thread devoted to the WW1 armistice commemoration:
Armistice: 90th anniversary
Today marks the 90th anniversary of the end of World War I. How are you commemorating the occasion?
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=10070&edition=2&ttl=20081112222724
=
Added: Wednesday, 12 November, 2008, 16:20 GMT 16:20 UK
Versailles has been often criticised as an overly harsh treaty that ended up fueling further conflict. Don’t forget the 1919 Treaty of Trianon, in which the Hungarian nation was punished even worse. It is leading to a revival of tension at the present time in the Carpathian basin, especially between Slovaks and their Hungarian minority. The consequences of that war 90 years ago continue and may heat up.
I feel the “Allies”, i.e. US, UK and France owe Hungary many billions in reparations
leslie Farkas
Éljen Magyarország!
It would give me great joy and pleasure to demand billions from the US, UK, and France! Whatever comes of it- the joy is in the asking (or rather, demanding!) Just doing it makes me feel good, and the more stink we can raise, the better. It feels like at least I don’t take our fate lying down. “Ask and ye shall receive”; you may not get if you ask, but in this case, you won’t if you don’t!
Look at the mind boggling sums the Americans spend just trying to rebuild Iraq! They can afford to throw a few billion our way- and I don’t mean “loans”- I mean reparations! Money that is to be compensation for having our small nation trimmed back even further, to the point of being economically handicapped. Much of the territory we lost had valuable raw materials that could have fueled our development.
Hysterics and drama will help, as liberals have a weakness for guilt trips, underdogs and victims. There are a lot of ways to go about such a course, and I will keep you all posted.
Re: the world press. It is corruptible and can be managed. That’s what public relations firms are for, and our govt. should make use of them. I also wouldn’t hesitate to invite reporters and TV people to Hungary and just bribe them to write glowing reports of us. One or two thousand Euros to a corrupt reporter, and viola- Good press!
I don’t give up. Our ancestors, who faced much worse situations in the past didn’t give up, and neither should we!
@Farkas Laszlo
Brilliant work! great to see the passion and Eloquence of your work…
Guliver
You have a problem with the new Russia ? Have you been there ?? Do you know where the gas comes from that keeps you warm at night ?Do you know who is one of Hungary’s biggest trade partners for food products,Kravtex Credo buses etc.. ? Do you know which nation as a HUGE trade surplus (not a US style deficit)?
Your hatred of Russia is like saying you hate Germany because of the Nazi’s , Communism died in 1989 (thank God) in Russia, though OUR ex-commies still have the power.
Ricsi, (snout’s the word, old boy)
Putin is an ex-communist.
Adrian D
Indeed he was head of KGB, and now he is a firm Russian nationalist who puts HIS country and people first,his resources are no longer exploited by outsiders–For that I admire him as a great leader,ex commie or not !
Our ex commie on the other hand simply sold out his country,lied to his people,feathered his own nest to the tune of hundred million and now seeks further controls against freedom of expression and calls for “national unity” rather than resign–National Unity comes about with a strong leader–that is not and never could be the lying,cheating Gyurcsány and his gang.
Ricsi,
“his resources are no longer exploited by outsiders”
‘His’ was an interestly slip. You’re right, its insiders who have stripped Russia – usually called Oligarchs. Have you been following the Rouble lately?
AdrianD
As you well know,I meant his country’s resources..
but you can play the word game if you wish,no problem….
As for the Rouble ,So ?? I did not say things were perfect,of course Russia is effected,but they and China will be the big survivors after this–even Medvedyev said Russia would suffer for about 2 years but had the ability to pull through easier than most.
By the way do you know the background of most of those oligarchs,there ethnicity ?? interesting ?? No ??
oligarchs!! what a great observation Ricsi, Rotchilds!
“Hungarians have- and that is negative public perception abroad. We lack ‘good PR’”
True, but I think deeds speak louder than words. To get good press, we need to do something praiseworthy, in science, arts, in politics by having exemplary foreign relations that are aimed and cooperation. Have a stable government with sensible economic policies, and it will attract investors, rather than street riots (although that at least got in the press). A very frequent topic on the BKV blog is how controllers harass and rip-off tourists on purpose. What saddens me as that half the comments say ‘if they don’t like it, they don’t have to come’. Because they really won’t, and they’re going to tell everyone about it too. Like an American girl at my uni who broke her leg when visiting Hungary and after the hospital trip wowed never to visit again. Our greatest resource is human, and that means education, research and development.
Faye
How can you motivate a nation that has a leader like “Gyurcsány” in office?? people aren’t stupid here, there feed up with the continuous Lies! and why should people put on a mask just to keep foreigners happy, at least this treatment will highlight that we are being lead by an incompetent political party, until this regime is ousted then we wont see any pride amongst Hungarians, these demonstrations didn’t begin until late 2006, and we have suffered ever since.
There will always be people that complain about an experience and they attract that thought into there lives, maybe the people around you are negative beings, take a better look at yourself. I have hope for the nation and support the locals not the foreigners, once we clean up the mess then we can start genuinely smiling and that will be more powerful then this facade masquerade you’re suggesting. I do agree this should be one of our future goals, but we have to heal ourselves first..
Hello Faye Faye,
I believe that us doing good exemplary things, AND us managing our public image in a sound way, should run concurrently and on an ongoing basis. It’s wonderful if a Hungarian wins a Nobel prize, or does something for which we get respect abroad. But I wouldn’t wait until a Hungarian gets that call from Stockholm to suggest calling a PR firm and attend to our “spin doctoring”. Also, because we are so small a people in a world with many other peoples, we register low on the radar screen of world attention. There is so much else to distract attention away from us.
Public image management is vital when you are in competition with others for money, trade, power, access and influence. It’s also important when you have certain difficult ideas to “sell” to the outside world, especially when your plan means stepping on someone’s toes. Remember that we are supposed to be the mythically clever “revolving door” people (Istenem, how old is that joke about us and where did it originate?), and as such, we should never leave such things to chance. Never leave important matters to fate and chance.
Hotpaprika- thanks for your kind support!
Ricsi Hotpaprika,
Thanks for confirming that the above linked “freaky suck-up to Russia” is not just random stupidity, but an organic part of Jobbik’s international strategy.
No, I have not been in Russia. Have you? Perhaps as part of an official delegation sponsored by Jobbik? Did you, by any chance, run into Gyurcsany in the anteroom of Putin? He visits there quite often, you know.
Do you know what your hero, Putin considers the biggest tragedy of the 20th century? The disintegration of the Soviet Union. By the way, he is looking for volunteers to guard the Soviet monument on Szabadsag Ter. You should join the efforts. While you stand guard there you could contemplate the cognitive dissonance of your position.
Speaking of mutual admiration, who do you think is the biggest fool in the Putin-Gyurcsany-Jobbik triangle?
Do you know what a contradiction is?
Jobbik is clearly not ready for prime time. The only thing going for them is that they dislike Gyurcsany, but that’s not enough just yet. They should drop the “far” from far right, and tone down the rhetoric a bit. The way to get into power is to find out what the majority of voters want, and promise it to them. Once you’re in power, you may do the opposite, it worked for Gyurcsany. In Hungarian politics once you’re in, you’re in, no matter how much they hate you, there’s no system in place to get rid of tyrants.
The Parliament is no Roman Senate, and Gyurcsany ain’t Julius Caesar either…
Hello Ricsi,
When I saw Russia mentioned, it made me think that up to now I have not spoken much on the Slavic East here. I do side with you on the notion that good, sensible relations with Russia are indispensible. Like them or not, they are too big and too near to us not to be taken into account. Besides providing fuel, they can be of help in other ways. To take any other position, would violate my whole Machiavellian mode as it pertains to international relations.
I do have a few couple of deep regrets. One is that we do not have the option, like the Russians, of just getting by on the sale of raw materials. We have very little territory; they almost have way too much. With all that territory comes a lot of valuable oil, gas and minerals. It allows them to weather the global economic crisis better than us. It also allows them to opt out of the neo-liberal world economic order, while staying solvent. We can all see now that de-communization in the former Soviet block has been a mess; it would have been nice to do it the way the Chinese did. China is the only Communist nation that evolved into capitalism and globalism gracefully.
The other regret I have, is that we Magyars are racial orphans. We lack a big rich “uncle” nation that could help us and look out for us, one that we are tied to by race, kinship and language. Sure, we are supposed to be related to the Finns, but much good that does us. Our original ancestors might as well have stepped out of a UFO.
(Cont.)
(cont)
The nice thing about eastern strongmen like Putin and the former Kravchuk of Ukraine, is that once you meet with them and size each other up, you all know where you stand. Either business can be done, or not. There wouldn’t be a lot of other elements to appease. The idea of revising Trianon through back room dealing first occurred to me in the early 90’s. In a supremely corrupt man like Kravchuk, I saw the chance to get back the Carpatho-Ukraine, the Munkács, Ungvár, Máramaros megye region now held by Ukraine. I suggested then going to Kiev and giving him 5 or maybe 10 billion dollars in cash, in exchange for which he would cede back to us some of our former territory (the wishes of the Ruthenes he would not take into account for that kind of money!) Where would we have gotten the cash? I would have borrowed it from the Germans or the Americans- I don’t care. What would have mattered is closing the deal, at all costs. Don’t forget that that mountainous territory could have resources, as well as development potential with which we could have been paid back. With the right amount of money (and timing), I believe that a deal like this could have gone through. I learned back then, what I know now, that such a plan and scheme is just too far out and fantastic for most Hungarians, who don’t seem capable of thinking along these kind of lines. We prefer to just go on feeling sorry for ourselves. (cont)
(cont)
I can already anticipate some of the typical objections: “Why pay for what was stolen from us?”. To that I say getting it back is better than not having it at all. To this day, we still don’t have it! That much European real estate could have generated an income and revenue stream in the future that would pay for the deal. As it is, we are not getting it. I always suggest taking a very bottom line view- because: Nyafogást meg önsajnálatot nem lehet a bankba tenni!*
*(“You can’t put whining and self-pity in the bank!)
(I apologize for the broken up posting)
Hi again Ricsi!
I want to change the subject a bit. I was surfing the net and came upon an English language site where Budapest architecture was being discussed. I noticed someone posted a comment under the name “Ricsi”, was that you? The issue was preserving the architectural charm of the 19th century. I can’t stand what modern architecture has done all over the world, and we shouldn’t let these bastards destroy the beauty of Budapest. Modern architecture began as a leftist intellectual/political rebellion against the bourgeoisie, in Germany, at the “Bauhaus”. One of their gurus, Adolph Loos, declared ornament to be a crime! What an ass! (No dude, things like rape, robbery and murder are crimes! Not traditional building styles.) The modern architectural profession still acts like that dictum was some proven law of physics!
Either the city changes, or the profession changes. I say let the profession respect what we have and adapt their designs to be compatible with what is already there. We have had enough crap dumped on us by others!
Fárkas Lászlo
YES it was me! I am here ,there and everywhere !
Thanks for your comment,I hate to see so called “modernism” desecrate our historic cities,in the name of “progress”, usually through mass usage of concrete and glass-no long term strength or value
in any shape or form.