Things are moving in a bad direction in Hungary, 84% of the respondents said in a Medián poll commissioned by the weekly HVG.
All social sections and voter groups share the pessimism, and even the majority of Socialist voters feel that things are moving in the wrong direction.
The survey shows support for Fidesz at 62% among decided voters, far ahead of the Socialists’ 28%.
A separate poll conducted by Tárki shows Fidesz with 61% support among decided party voters, as against the Socialists 26%.
Both polls show the Democratic Forum support near 5%, and that for the Free Democrats at 2-3%
The Medián poll was conducted during December 5-9, and the Tárki survey between November 27 and December 12.
Gee that took Einstein to work out, definately require new elections, this continious damage the socialists commies are doing between now and the next elections is horrific..
@Hotpaprika: Can you outline the economic policies of the alternatives then? Have they any apart from spending more? This may be the wrong direction, but what is the right direction. And if you mention tax cuts you have to outline how to counterbalance this. Me, I would massively increase tax on the unhealthy parts of consumer society (smoking etc..) use this to reduce taxes elsewhere. This also has the long term effects of decreasing the number of people seeking early retirement through their own self-induced ill-health. Allow the police force to use part of the fees they collect for speeding and parking offences to pay for better IT/surveillance equipment, the rest going to implement out of town parking. Then push for the centre of Budapest of adopt the daily fees we see in London. In a word lots of really unpopular stuff to get the coach-potatoes walking and sticking to the law. You? I imagine you want to increase everyone’s wages, cut taxes and let the country go down the pan faster than Medgyessy managed to achieve?
Vandorlo,
I don’t know what is it you’re smoking, but it sure doesn’t make you any smarter or more tolerable.
@Stan: Since you caved in on the last issue (democracy), why not step up and try your hand at this one instead of the quips? Where are the policies and alternate paths. Let’s see the math.
Vándorló
You keep asking the same question,no matter how many times we try to help you, WE are not political experts but see the faults and desire change, you on the other hand are like a dog with a bone,you just can’t let go.
With all due respect,let me throw the question back at you-What is your solution,or are you content just to increase tax on cigs (the smugglers will love you)allow traffic fines to pay for surveillance cameras (In-Kal and the Gyurcsány secret police will love you ) and charge access fees (more profits for the companies involved) instead of just making out of town car parks with free bus service as in Austria .
You see your 3 little ideas would have no serious effect on the current crisis and can easily be destroyed without much effort.
Now give me some REAL solutions,I am willing to listen and learn from anyone.
@Ricsi: I keep asking the same question, but you have yet to answer it, because you appear to have no answer. The question I asked was A. “What is your form of government, how are you elected and who decides?” Nothing on Jobbik that you pointed out answers that question and you have yet to answer it. Nor has Hotpaprika. Look as the distribution of brainpower goes it is Stan > Ricsi > Hotpaprika, but even Stan has problems and unfortunately none of you are any close to the callibre of the Varangy, so it makes these discourses pretty useless. You have no ideas, you don’t answer questions, you bleat like sheep and complain like little girls. But I still persist. So my main answers would be the same as any sensible person: 1. Decrease size of central and local government by at least one third (Fidesz opposes reductions in local government as this is where it has lots of redundant seats). 2. Pay people direct wages that are directly taxable, which includes doctors and politicians (both opposed and undermined by Fidesz) 3. Make any early retirement really difficult so that 60/65 means something not the current average of 58 4. Use some money from 1 to pay for cut in business rates 5. Remove or reduce on DIY so people can afford to renovate and live in their decaying homes and stop the ongoing destruction of the city and heritage… Is that enough for now? But get back to answering my question A. and then question B. “What are your economic policies?” Inebriated cowards.
That’s better,now you are letting go of the bone and showing your teeth,but the pity is that you are still a little poodle !!! Snarl,snarl…
(this is fun )
@Ricsi: Give your brain some exercise. Answer A or B. You haven’t any idea what you are talking about have you. Just following orders, you wretch. A or B.
Now you are biting !!!
JÓ KUTYA !!!
What I don’t understand Vandolo is Socialists have been robbing the country dry, claiming to support the Liberal Socialist policies, in the meantime taxing the life out of people, government road projects and funding are unaccountable, any alternative would be a fresh change for Hungary.
Morally Hungarians have no faith in the current Socialists party, there esteem is shot to bits, so I believe the moral issues are number one priority to get the bounce and enthusiasm back instead of the minorities calling the shots, the current, Socialists don not stand beside Hungarians, they are destroying the middle class turning them into slaves by the extreme taxing. Policies can be written however there is another procedure is to implement them and the Socialists have failed miserably! I am so surprised that the Socialists have not stepped down for the interests of the nation instead of their selfish agenda to sell out the country. So the Moral Issues are priority!! Also the mess created for the next party to clean up is phenomenal, it would take a least 2 terms and radical changes! Moral is Priority!
Popeye
Spot on mate !!
I gave up trying to make that clear to him,but thanks for trying yourself.
Only one point of differ,two terms ?? No I think a much longer period is necessary to reinvigorate and revitalise this beautiful country.
@Popeye: “…so I believe the moral issues are number one priority to get the bounce and enthusiasm back…” So how do you propose to do that? What on earth would your policies be and how would you achieve them?
@Ricsi: Bleating along with anything vaguely resembling an argument (something which you are unable to form) doesn’t constitute political thought. Though in Jobbik it obviously does. I hope they pay you enough to humiliate yourself this way.
@Hotpaprika and Stan: Since you should be involved in this. Are you going to bleat along with Ricsi or do you have any cogent ideas about what you are talking about?
The doggy is barking again,somebody throw him a biscuit .
@Ricsi: OK, you have 48 hours to come up with something in answer to A and/or B. If you don’t, then you win, I won’t trouble you here any more.
Vandorlo, in theory the policies have been broken by the Socialists! Socialists have screwed up!
Have you become a psychopath, cant you read (Morally Hungarian Nation requires changes!!) and the Socialists are not capable of implementing any of there policies so what are you freaking out about! Any Party other then the current Socialists would be a Godsend, The Socialists have dropped the ball, game over, three strikes your out!
I am no politician, as I wrote previously , policies and promises are made in theory however have not been upheld by the Socialists which have screwed these policies!! They have lied morning day and night! This is not democracy they should be expelled for the interest of the Nation not personal gains which the Socialist are
Check out the websites of the other candidates as Ricsi has already highlighted the Bethlen Gabor program seems very moralistic, and it seems you will go on and on until you burst like a big zit!
Van
error!! I should have written in the first paragraph, in PRACTICE the policies have been broken by Socialists, just juggling work with play
Looks like I missed a good fight. When someone mentions tobacco taxes as the solution, it usually means that he’s hopelessly beyond clueless, and there’s no chance for intelligent debate.
Vandorlo is strictly prohibited to read my posts, this one is included.
Now back to saving Hungary.
First, as Popeye said, we have to restore faith, morals and purpose. Unite people instead of dividing them.
The current government and ruling party have lost all credibility and their incompetence is well documented, so they must go. To prison.
Faith in the system cannot be restored without setting an example: if you abuse power, you’re not going to get away that easy.
Second, we have to replace the MSZP/SZDSZ gang, FIDESZ will do till the next election. They seem to have some good ideas, see what happens.
Third, take a good look at the Constitution, and make all necessary adjustments to guarantee personal freedom is protected, freedom of speech, assembly, media, the right to arm bears and so on.
Fourth, legalize pot (marijuana). We really don’t have the time and money to keep up the pointless “war on drugs”, and it’s a major violation of individual rights anyway. Regulate sale the same way as for tobacco or booze, don’t sell it to kids and tax it at a reasonable level.
This will save money on one side, and generate income on the other, so it’s a win-win. Hemp is another cash crop for farmers and can be used to produce useful things, like rope…
out od space…
Vandorlo is giving me 48 hours to solve Hungary’s problem’s !! How kind of you, pity you let Gyurcsány have over 6 years to cause those problems !!
Let me see what miracle I can create over the weekend in between drinking my red Villányi Portugeser wine and eating Csirke Paprikás.
WOW awsome guys, seems like another new recruit , welcome Popeye! My hopes are improving from reading the above comments, Van the Man is going to have a cardiac arrest
it’s entertaining going fishing with Van, he likes to bite! A Stubborn Fool he seems. Ricsi 48 hours? wow what a threat you must be shaking, enjoy you wine mate cheers!
@Ricsi – What’s the problem answering 2 simple questions? I’m really curious to know.
In all this time, I’ve never seen you outline an economic plan. I always put it down to you not understanding economics.
Hehe…
Are you sure you are the real Stan?
I mean you are talking of legalizing pot,
freedom of speech, assembly, media,
…and the right to arm bears…
On a lighter note
Hemp is another cash crop for farmers and can be used to produce useful things, like rope…
out od space…
Have a nice weekend and a Merry Christmas Stan.
While some of the points raised by Van were short-sighted some later points weren’t:- reduce gov’t, leave money for private investment…
Now Van is asking, “A” what gov’t would work? Given the high education of the HU populace and lack of any clear “big brothers” nation/allies – one would have thought HU should be a thriving self-reliant democracy, filled with public debate arriving at consensus policies especially when the chips are down. So why isnt it?
The “morality” point explains this. While the term could connote “political correctness” – after a little thought one ralizes that it’s spot on. People are in an economic vice. To pay the bills and get ahead, the rules have driven HU people to a form of of sociopathic (eg non-cooperative) behaviour. Unlike the “prisoners’ dilemma” – there’s no reward for cooperation instead survival requires cheating; now its the norm.
Those who should give us nuturing policies obliviously do the opposite. Perhaps erstwhile noble they have reduced the tax base & now scramble to find funding concluding more taxation, enforcement & fines for those generating the capital & jobs will fix things. Such works when few are pegged but when nearly everybody is fodder one just gets dis-satisfaction.
Any political system that creates a fair society appears to work; people cooperate be it socialist or capitalist knowing that they get value for their tax money. If people have no choices but “bad” or “worse” then what is there?
Continued.
Though NOT my idealogical hero, Ronald Reagan once said, the 8 scariest words in the English language are “I’m from the gov’t and here to help.”
(PS. Ayn Rand is …).
Ah ! Moral support from Uncle Joe,the expert on Jasmin Rice.
Whatta surprise… probably leave EU ASAP would help… than hang Mr. Gyurcsany on the left side of Andrassy and Mr. Orban to the right side and continue the row till Heroes Square, that might clean up politics here D))
@Ricsi: Please grow-up. You’ve morphed yourself into a child by dejecting Vandorlo as a common animal. Adults use their words. Wise adults know how to debate instead of trying to insult. Please learn how to properly debate or give proper criticism. We’re not children here. And yes, Van did briefly explain how to “fix” the problem in his first posting.
Pardon, but back to the article.
A new constitution needs to be made. Maygars need to be educated in how the government works (i.e. learn & understand what democracy means) and get actively involved. The government also needs to be stable, the politicans need to stop being corrupt, as well as the country needs to re-invest in itself by paying their teachers and doctors more (just to name a few). The intelligent workforce is leaving the country and going elsewhere. How does the government plan on keeping them?
….k
@Ricsi – As I said before, I’m not really familiar with agriculture. But when someone thinks that Hungary can grow bananas better than Equador, or rice better than Thailand, then in comparison, I probably would appear to be an expert
@KK
It seems Vandorlo is talking babble, not using wisdom, Ricsi is obviously not capable to debate and share dialogue with ignorant Socialist supporters, that seriously don’t view politics in a balanced perspective, KK as before mentioned there is no true democracy here and this is what has been highlighted previously, but these Communist neo liberal supporters are like parrots squawking! If a sensible person would raise a genuine debate then I assume Ricsi would reply accordingly
@Popeye – so where do you find true democracy?
In your dreams!
Sorry if I am short just that I am working, Unfortunately true democracy is very difficult to establish, there are entities outside of a nations control that influence and will infiltrate any governments attempt to implement true democracy, and these groups have been on the prowl throughout our history, so depending on the governments ideology and moralistic views for the overall benefit of a nation, should be a priority, and highlighting these entities agenda is a difficult campaign, unfortunately both the far left and far right are the only parties highlighting these entities who have control of out institutions, media and finances, any political group that stands beside it’s people and not the entities that are there to maintain fear and chaos amongst our people I will support whole heartedly, we need Love, Peace and Morals to be generated, and this requires legislation to defend the rights of the nation, and this rights in plain black and white, our Legal systems have become far too complex for the truth to be enforced, which is another important reform which would help on the road to a higher percentage of achieving utopia.
Életképtelenek! Csáósztok!
@Popeye – No problem. My question was also too brief. I wanted to ask, given all what you said about ‘external influences’, which country would you use as a model for Hungary, and why do you see the similarities?
Evo Morales Bolivia, His announcement of 180 days, by which all foreign energy firms were required to sign new contracts giving Bolivia majority ownership and as much as 82% of revenues. This is a just a peak at what a small nation with the population of Hungary may model itself after.
Putin how he has taking back control of his resources, not a big Russian fan, however the courage and cunning tactics to exile the privatization of the industries by the crimanal mafia.
Raising peoples awareness to the Muti national destruction of our civil societies is what I support, not the fake democracy which is demonstrated in the majority of the western countries.
Uncle fart
Please tell me when I said Hungary can grow better bananas or rice ????? I spoke of food indigenous to this region and you know it !
Now go away,you keep turning up like a bent coin,with your silly comments.
Popeye
Thank you for summing it up so nicely . Somebody famous once said ” I can win a debate with an intellectual every time,but never can I win an argument with an idiot..” which about sums up the situation here.
Vandorló gave me 48 hours ! I am no economic genius but I believe the current “geniuses” have all been proven wrong by recent events ,hence my belief in change. We are constrained by the EU and our NATO commitment hence a Bolivia style approach would never be possible,we must break the chains gradually and see where our real future lies (allied to Russia for example !)
Expect to see great changes very soon.
@Popeye – Bolivia & Russia. Interesting choices for democracy, although you’ve focused on nationalisation (economic) issues rather than political.
Nonetheless, what privatised industry(ies) would you nationalise in Hungary? I presume you’re also saying that Hungary has the competitive talent & technology in these industries to compete in a global market without assistance. I’d be curious about this.
@Richie – stick to your bananas. Economics and politics are beyond your grasp.
74 hours and still counting!
@Uncle Joe, Why is it not political ? Is the localizing the market and resources not political? Raising national interests and morals not political? Keeping the culture not political? Not letting a country have external influence of different ideology not political? Working towards national interests of it’s indigenous people not political? don’t be so condescending as if your views are gospel. I am aware of your neo liberal tactics and questioning, we agree to disagree, as simple as that ! don’t try and ridicule my views by saying it’s not politics, because this is the main core of a political ideological system.
@Popeye
Dont stress about Joey boy, he is mean and is out to ridicule anyone other then his own Commie capitilistic mixeed up gay zionist agenda, he has no concrete direction, only how to screwup Hungarys future, the Big Super Hero from the West, Batman look out here comes Uncle Joe!!
Vándorló and U.Joe
Two fools trying to appear intelligent,then attacking those they can not debate with by offering ridicules propositions like ‘solving Hungary’s problems in 48 hours’ or making stupid comparisons about Thai Jasmin and Costa Rican Banana’s in an attempt to ridicule.
Good bye to trolling children.
@Popeye – I have no arguments if you and your friends want to use Bolivia as the model for Hungary.Your post only commented on nationalisation issues, specifically indigenous industries (& also threw in people?).Yes, the Bolivian Indians are relatively poor compared to other Bolivians (just like in Hungary, where the Hungarian gypsies are quite poor compared to the other Hungarians).
I dont have a problem if you want to nationalise MOL, MAV, Malev, Ikarus, and all the other indigenous industries. Guess MOL has to say goodbye to Slovnaft & INA.
Of course globally competitive industries like Audi, Suzuki, Flextronics, Philips etc …which brought proprietary technology(and jobs) to Hungary are not really indigenous, are they?
My views aren’t gospel by any means. You’re free to choose.I’m just curious how well thought out your views are to straddle politics, economics and social aspects all at the same time. Ultimately, I live here now, and I would like to understand the reasoning & decisions of different groups of people, at least what may impacts me (as a foreigner). I really would like to see Hungarians choose their own approach. If it screws up, only Hungarians would be responsible, and it succeeds, perhaps my country can learn from that.
@Hot Pap – I’m sorry, but I dont know any gay zionists (except you).
@Ricsi – Van isn’t asking you for a plan. Just 3 simple questions. Boy, all my students can answer that in 10 minutes. Tsk, tsk. ..98 hours already.
98 and counting LOL
like I am going to waste time answering immature agitators.
Merry Christmas to ALL on the forums.
@Ricsi – “like I am going to waste time answering immature agitators”.
Of course not! You’ll need to save your three brain cells to tie your shoelaces LOL. Hopefully
Santa:) will bring you some velcro shoes in your stockings.
Merry Christmas, Ricsi! Peace be with you! & Hot Pap too.
Merry Christmas all, lets generate a bit of the Love energy
Yeah right,whatever, your wit never ceases to amaze.
Hope you have a better outlook on life in 2009,the year the shit will really fly,everywhere unfortunately.
Now enjoy your Christmas festivities.
Whoops,bad timing, but I am sure U.J knows it was meant for him !!
@Ricsi
I hope UJ is not that ignorant,
@Hot Pap, Ricsi – I’m may be looking forward to a Jobbik government. I think your economic policies will probably benefit people like me who would identify some new opportunities which Hungarians cannot fill by themselves (bearing in mind that I am not doing business here). I have already identified several business sectors where Hungary cannot compete, and I would be willing to bring in new technology, investors and money (if you will let me) to start up some new industries. Of course, only if your economic policies are viable (I’m willing to pay all taxes etc – btw how much taxes are we talking about?)
Otherwise, I would carry on teaching (also, if you will let me).
Hi Ricsi, I smell something rotten, the smell won’t go away just lingers, have you any suggestions mate?
hotpaprika – Change your underpants! That should help.
Oops! Sorry, my mistake. I thought I was wearing my diapers!
Looks like the children have come out to play on daddys keyboard ! Time to abandon this thread.
Ye put a brik init hotpaprika n stop lowerin de convesation
@Ricsi – does this mean you wont tell me what Jobbik’s tax rates will be? Jeez. Running away again!
22% flat rate, now FUCK OFF
@Richie Boy – 22% flat? Excellent! I can just see it now – Hungary, the dominant country in the turnip trade.
The idea Uncle Joe, is to have the cheapest turnips in the area! I’m sure Risci does not need my help to explain his views on taxation but I would suggest something similar to the Fair Tax Plan proposed in the US. If you examine the following projected benefits you will see that it is a comprehensive and viable economic alternative.
* Enables workers to keep their entire paychecks
* Enables retirees to keep their entire pensions
* Refunds in advance the tax on purchases of basic necessities
* Allows Hungarian products to compete fairly
* Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
* Ensures Retirement funding
* Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
* Abolishes the IRS
So if we can corner the market on affordable turnip production then sky’s the limit and soon we would become the world’s high tech and financial colossus.
@Szekes – You overestimate Ricsi’s ability to understand & explain anything maturely or coherently.
Anyway, interesting proposal you made. I’ll spend some time understanding it in context of the economic realities of Hungary. I think it would have been more workable in pre-EU Hungary. At first glance, I agree that, it address points 1,2,3,5, and 7 (mostly procedural), all of which would improve some aspects of people’s lives (& the corporate sector) in Hungary.
I’m not sure what you mean by Hungarian goods compete fairly (point 4?), since all goods (domestic & foreign) are taxed equally. The fairtax influence productivity, human resource development, or the ability of Hungary to produce better or more competitive goods (turnips included, let alone high tech or financial svcs).
Sustainable retirement funding(point 6), an issue in all countries, is even more difficult to predict. There is a huge assumption that the additional revenue (+6% corp.tax & +2% consumption)would allow Hungary to meet all current and future liabilities. A 6% corp tax increase is a big dissuader for investment in CEE.
Actually UncleJoe,it is you who thus overestimate, for you overestimate my patience in replying to deliberate,arrogant,antagonistic idiots like you.
You are so high and mighty in your thoughts,yet you remain nothing more than a “teacher”. (No disrespect to REAL teachers,who have to work very hard for shit pay)
Uncle Joe, the real benefit of the Fair Tax Plan is that it allows individuals to determine how much tax they will pay, aside from food and black market activities. Hungary’s goods would be priced at a lower rate because corporate tax is eliminated and the cost of labor is not taxed. Point of sale value will be competitive with foreign goods internally and very viable externally. Other than that and as was mentioned earlier, accountability and transparency is what is required to allow a government to operate in an effective socio-economic model. Just look to the US as a shining example of this! Our $1 Trillion Dollar corporate bailout is change we can believe in!
Ricsi – actually, you disrespect every teacher you ever had with your lowly, rude, crude and ignorant remarks. I have tried to engage in serious (okay, semi-serious) debate here with facts, and on occasion opinions (but which usually can be substantiated by some facts).
Your comments are almost always opinions trying to pass off as facts. You always criticize anyone who disagrees or challenges your posts with childish name calling (see your posts above and elsewhere). Almost all your posts betrays a chav-like upbringing and attitude which tries to intimidate or even threaten people who have different opinions from you.
Every single Hungarian I know or on these posts are more polite than you. Maybe, I’m expecting too much civility from someone who is not a REAL Hungarian.
@uncle joe
Well you are a fine example of a Hypocrite, from your posts you have on many occasions carried on like a pork chop! It’s not easy to debate politics in a civil manor when views are totally opposite,it seems you are the one who personally attacks, ridicules and carries on, why would anyone want to share dialogue with a provocateur, Ricsi has obviously got jack of your condescending nature pro western capitalistic pig as you are, we dont want your dictatorship or western influences come to Hungary especially a poof lover, zionist supporter and anti Hungarian like yourself! Go away, just putting it nicely your not Hugarian piss off pack to Palestine where ever you claim your origins are, and I dont even want to know! Your a waste of space!
once again I find myself repeating myself-Fuck off idiot,
@Hot Pap – You think I’m a zionist supporter from Palestine? Jeez! And people wonder what went wrong in Hungary!
I’m not anti-Hungarian. I’m just anti stupid! And in Ricsi and you, I found the mother lode of stupidity. Hopefully, you two IMPORTS represent the absolute dumbest of the jobbik supporters. If you are the average jobbik supporter, I simply cannot imagine that half of jobbik is dumber than you.
@UJ
Talk to the hand!
Uncle joe, you pathetic amateur little weasel, you love this “import” attack,this is the ONLY thing you can think of to attack us-PATHETIC,what are you here ? an amateur teacher ,if you were any good you would be making big money in your own country,NO ?
Go away if you can not add a sensible comment,or enter into a polite debate. You sir are nothing and have no contribution to Hungary,except your bitter ,twisted,sad comments.
May you wake up and find the light in 2009 !!
Please go away and let the adults engage in sensible debate.
PS We freely admit our origins and our feelings,but you still refuse to disclose anything–truly a loud mouthed coward.
Happy new year to all INTELLIGENT contributors on the forums .
@Szekes – very interesting proposal! I really think you might have something here which just might be suitable for Hungary. Has it worked in any other country before?
Still a couple of questions. If there are no corporate & labor taxes, then the state’s income is purely from consumption. Logically, the VAT has to be substantially increased (how much) to make up for the shortfall. So, how do prices decrease?
Also, my wife (who worked for our IRS in the past) asks about how likely it is to achieve a sustainable balanced budget if there are no social , health or pensions taxes. It’s only possible if the state doesn’t pay for social security, pensions or healthcare.
Szekes
You have a good heart,but be careful ,for our resident idiot is looking for friends in his desperation to justify his stupid attacks.Maybe soon we can talk ?
Happy new year.
Uncle Joe your a fuckin idiot! go do your research on taxation yourself, these promises before an election is pure theory until a political party is in government then we will see the true figures, get real boy your such a jerk!