The head of Hungary’s National Roma Self-Government (OCO) blamed parties in parliament for the anti-Roma sentiments experienced lately in Hungary at a press conference held in Budapest on Thursday.
Orban Kolompar was speaking in response to a debate in the press over the past few months about the existence of “Gypsy crime” or whether the ethnic background of criminals should be noted in connection with crime. The issue flared up again when suspects of the stabbing of international handball players last weekend were said to be part of or associated with a gang of Roma criminals.
Police have not found evidence for this connection, but they did take testimonies from witnesses and former gang associates which suggested a link.
The government has disassociated itself from the use of the term “Gypsy crime” and for membership of an ethnic minority to be singled out in crime statistics.
Kolompar said parties have been noncommittal about the problems of the Roma and were partly responsible for a collective blame for crimes on the Roma community. He added that they have done nothing to help the Roma create a credible political representation for dealing with important economic and social problems among their community.
Kolompar called on the Roma to think about how they see the next ten years for themselves.
He said the remarks by opposition leader Viktor Orban on Wednesday regarding Roma and crime were unfortunate.
Orban said there was no “Gypsy crime” but there were criminals that belong to the Roma minority and the serious crimes committed by Roma was on the rise, which cannot be ignored.
Kolompar asked the help of the media in “creating a normal human atmosphere which focuses primarily on the person, not political interests.”
He said parties should support a Roma programme, to be designed by OCO, which would help bring about peace in society. He added that there were plans for a three-way agreement between the OCO, police and the National Association of Civil Self-Defence to train 3,000 Roma and non-Roma civil self-defence personnel as well as social workers to help improve communication among citizens.
Kolompar the ‘thief’ concerned nobody takes Roma issues seriously ! so return the ‘missing millions’ and put it to the use it was intended for–to help your Roma,you hypocrite.!
Always looking for excuses to justify the crime wave.
Wake up Kolompar, video of Roma’s stabbing athletes, Oh that’s the governments fault, videos of Roma crime all over the Internet, oh that must be government propaganda. OK, something needs to be done but stop blaming everyone else and start in you own home.
HMMM is a Hungarian idiot.
Ricsi is a Hungarian idiot.
Where do all these Hungarian idiots come from?
Hungary!
Where do you come from Joe?
Joes Warped!
hotpaprika is a Hungarian idiot. How many Hungarian idiots are there in the world. Hopefully not more than 10 million.
Joe baby,
Working in a libary sure didn’t raise your IQ.
Still the same as your shoe size: 7
Stan continues to show the world that he is a Hungarian idiot.
What’s with you Joe baby?
Lemmiwinks the gerbil is bothering you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcR3ZFlMYNQ
Looks like retard Joe learnt a new word ‘idiot’ today, he will forget it by tomorrow !
And you are a Hungarian idiot that doesn’t learn anything from one day to the next.
I am an american conservative idiot, (sorry folks)
– you see, it’s not an excuse, but sometime hopelessness “will pull the trigger” !!
Wrong Joe, I learnt one thing today-that you are a retard with a maximum 2 sentence ability nowadays.
Go home and find comfort with your own kind.
God, now the idiot Hungarian is boasting. How pathetic is that?
Joe
Actually to be true the only thing ‘pathetic’ is that I am actually wasting my time bothering to reply to you. I confess !!
Go to bed now before Daddy catches you on his keyboard.
The Hungarian idiot now admits that he is an idiot and pathetic.
We’re making progress, I say.
Definition of progress–When a gay dies of AIDS.
Ricsi, the Hungarian idiot now thinks that AIDS is a gay disease. He obviously hasn’t read a newspaper in the last twenty years otherwise he’d know that AIDS kills more heterosexuals than homosexuals, way more. Bu I don’t really expect that Hungarian idiot to be up on current events.
Gay Joe
I never said AIDS was a gay disease only that progress is when one of your kind dies of it,disease spreading filth infecting heterosexuals and children through blood transfusions etc..
By the way,it is well known what caused AIDS,read up ‘The ‘monkey’ virus’ on monkeyvirus.com.
Then go shoot yourself-death that way is much quicker (see I have your interests at heart ! )
Good night gay boy
Ricsi, the Hungarian idiot is theorizing about the origins of AIDS. How sad is that?
Surprise… AIDS is a …………
gays watchumecalleit – disease? YES!!!
But it’s no surprise that racism and bigotry attract Hungarian idiots. Oh, wait, they’re Hungarian idiots, so it’s no surprise. Sorry for the momentary confusion.
You are right Joe, the watchumecalleit AIDS – disease are everywhere – if you have bunch of gays even worst!
Now you’re starting to sound like a Hungarian idiot, mawar.
Joe, I have been nice so…. leave it that way, okay? Ugh….you start more spin than my washing machine.
Don’t make disparaging and incorrect comments about gays and AIDS and we’ll get along just fine. Your choice.
Judge others, beside yourself??
Judging others is one thing. Judging a whole nation or ethnic group is something totally different.
Many of the Hungarian idiots who post here judge whole nations and ethnic groups. I’ll stop my nonsense when they stop their idiocy. But I’m not holding my breath.
Gay Joe
So you are gay and love the Roma-one thing you should know,and ONE thing I do respect about the Roma-THEY NEVER TOLERATE GAYS ! You think I am bad ? wait while they get your faggot balls in a vice boy ! Still love them-go to them,but don’t deny your sexuality if you dare .
I hereby declare that I have more respect for Roma than any gay retard.
I can here you squealing already,little gay boy !
Where do all these Hungarian idiots come from?
Ricsi – Born and raised in England
Hotpaprika – Born and raised in Australia
—Neither of them speaks Hungarian—
Stan – Born? Lives in USA
Gulliver, Joe, and the rest of the imposters, You obviously cannot debate with facts so clearly are on the personal attack mode, with your ego based comments! very closed minded thinking! and your type have to be dealt with extreme sensitivity! Love Unconditional Love, something you are lacking, and have a great need for, try to look within and sort out your inner demons, they have obviously surfaced, so chill and go by yourself a bunch of flowers and present them to yourself, this might help the healing process. This was another free consultation..
Hotparika,
Go home!
You are not welcome in Hungary, you bigoted, racist hate-monger. Pack your stuff and off you go, back home to Queensland.
Debate with facts? You cannot tell facts from opinions, love from hate, the meaning of the word ‘there’ from ‘their’, the meaning of the preposition ‘by’ from ‘from’ and your ass from a hole in the ground.
Go home you idiot!
Hungary is not your country. Szebb jovot in Ozland.
Dear Gulliver, you are in dreamland, this is my home mate! but i still love you
and you better learn the definition of love.
Love of God is always unconditional. God has only one kind of love and that is unconditional. You do not have to do anything to earn God’s love because your earned that love when God created you. You must remember that God created you in his image and likeness. If you are created in the image and likeness of God, how could there be conditions to God’s love?
“Gypsy crime”, now there a phrase on every Magyar mouth these days, the politicians don`t say the word. Next we`ll be hearing the phrase “Gypsy problem”, and wow, that`s only a heart beat away from “The final solution”. Bet Ricsi will be up there with the other people in the mob demanding blood. A lot of my Hungarian friends actually believe the bullsh*t that`s out there. Just learn one thing, there is a culture of corruption and the politicians are more bent than the rest. It all starts with cheating in the exams,(except for medicine), then it`s money on the side, and then so on and so on. The 2 professions parents told their kids to follow, Economics and Law,lo and behold the Hungarian economy is up sh&t creek and there is no decent law! Posta Bank scandal, USD 1 billion is lost/stolen and the bastard who stole it has to pay a fine of USD 10,000..Makes you laugh or should be cry. There are so many good things things in Hungary,but racist bigotts aint 1 of them.
The murder in the pub of the Romanian hand ball player is playing into the hands of the Arrow Cross, whoops sorry I meant Jobbik and Magyar Garda, they are running an active recruitment campaign and using slogans like Gypsy Crime and Gypsy Terror, Cigányterror – A háború már elkezdődött, ELÉG VOLT A CIGÁNYBŰNÖZÉSBŐL. What do they mean by enough?? Ricsi do you have a uniform in the cupboard? So they are against Gypsies, Jews, Gays, Socialists, Hello haven`t we been here before?
I feel sorry for all these limp dicks who think by putting on a uniform will make them into real men.They are a bunch of latent homosexuals who really get off dressing up.At least a lot of the gays have more balls than they ever will have.Do they love the arabs because they hate the jews?
If these extremists take it any further, I would recommend a national strike by all people of Roma origin, so the `pure Hungarians` can clean out their own toilets, sweep their own streets and take out their own garbage and all the shitty jobs they are too good to do, a bit of humble pie is what is needed for the neo-fascist, black-shirted Magyar Garda movement in Hungary and their parent party, Jobbik.
Bernie your the extremist! you also have no understanding of the real situation here in Hungary, go and expereince some time in a regional area of Hungary, instead of talking waffle! Garda have not laid a finger on anyone, they are here to help Hungarians.
Duh I have lived in the countryside for 5 years and love my neighbors,and have a few gypsy neighbours too. So tell me my friend, how many years have you spent as a working adult living in a village or town??
Bernie
Firstly you cannot spell (not important really )
secondly you assume too much regarding other people-big mistake. I do not need a uniform to deserve respect, but in your fantasy world we all wear one ?
grow up or please go home.
All Hungarian idiots wear uniforms. Some wear a physical uniform and others a mental uniform.
Watch out for me at your next gay parade,I will be the one about to split your useless AIDS riddled skull.Buzi
Ricsi, the Hungarian idiot is now threatening violence. What a two bit loser. He’s just another idiot Hungarian with a criminal mind. Quelle surprise! NOT!!
Ricsi,
You have just committed a crime, a felony, no less.
Joe,
Ricsi is not Hungarian. He is a fake, one of those British hooligans roaming Europe looking for trouble.
Yes, Gulliver, his comment is considered a crime where I live. Perhaps the owners of this site can trace his comment and the police can arrest him. Perhaps some jail time would chill out this Hungarian criminal.
Gulli-Joe,
Maybe the owner of this site should kick your sorry ass out of here for ruining a perfectly good site with your childish spamming.
You two have flooded Pestiside and Politics.hu with enough garbage for one day. Find another hobby. You obviously have nothing to contribute.
Stan, the Hungarian idiot runs to the defence of the Hungarian criminal, Ricsi.
Neither understand that Ricsi’s comments are punishable by law. But that, dear readers, is the level of intelligence of the typical Hungarian racist.
@Stan – Methinks you, Hot Poop and Ricsi are Up the Khyber.
Joe,
I simply ignored your stupid little threat.
Remember, I know who you are, and I’m going to keep it confidential only as long as you don’t give me a reason to publish it.
Neither you nor the owner of this site or the owner of the network have any idea who Ricsi really is, and I don’t think they would give that information to you even if they did.
So much for you illusions.
Now go and read all the stupid crap comments you and your dumb little buddies left here in the past day or so. Don’t you feel stupid? You should.
The crap comments here are from intolerant, ill informed, bigoted, hypocritical, hateful, simpleminded and delusional posters who relentlessly aim their bile at the Roma, Jews, queers, Slovaks, etc., etc.
Debate is impossible with these “true believers.” The only sites where debate and dialogue are possible are moderated. This site is not.
The only antidote is to respond with nonsense.
Of course, I don’t expect that Hungarian idiot, Stan, to understand any of this.
Warning! For those interested in but not familiar with Hungary: this site, especially the comments posted here don’t represent the good people of Hungary. Joe is Canadian, he must have been hit on the head by an egg last time he attended the gay march in Budapest, so now he hates everyone.
Thanks to our fascist government, we are no longer allowed to express our opinion in public, which makes Budapest safe for eggs, gays, gypsies, jews, liberals and other foreigners. We may have to change the name of the country to La-la Land or something to accommodate all the above groups.
See what I mean, dear readers?
Leave now? Unacceptable? What a load of ROT! You really think we are going to swallow your version of History and politics? Isn’t this suppose to be Freedom of Expression and VEIWS you FUCKEN liberal jewish arse licking Zionist supporters, you have no idea how bad mannered and stupid you sound! How in Christ sake are you ever going to be able to debate when you don’t use any facts of History? Just the friggen systems brainwashing? Are you that ignorant? Yes it’s obvious!! You are the scum of society and require disciplinary action!! I cannot believe your absolute fucken blind behavior!
Ha Ha….This is now officially a gutter blog, with people sniping at each other. Don`t think Ricsi could be a Brit, cos we Brits don`t ream the Magyars
the way he does. Or maybe he was a BNP reject who fled `Ol Blighty cos he was such a looser. Some of my best mates are Hungarian and do prescribe to some of the tripe dished out in the media, but you guys here are a real circus show. There is so much hatred here, it just shows what sad people get up to in their free time. Joe and Gulliver and any others, why do you get down in the gutter to lower yourselves to their primitive level?
If you see a dog turd, you walk around it,you don`t stop and talk to it, it will dry up and get washed away in the rain! Offer constructive ideas to make Hungary a better place where everyone can co-exist! If you don1t like it, then sod off to somewhere else.
Poor pathetic Kolompar, still too fucking lazy to be a man. Too fucking lazy to do anything but steal from the white man. Kolompar doesn’t know his daddy so he’s angry. He thinks he’s inbred from being a feral gypsy so he blames everyone but his own. They all know their rights, but forget their responsibilities. Sad, sad Kolompar. Too fucking stupid to know better, too lazy to change. It’s not them gypsies’ fault, it’s in their DNA to be sub-human. Their IQ is barely that of a retarded person. They can’t help it.
Valdo! No wonder thousands of Roma are angry, and at people like you with such things as you say..
The Roma minority are good enough to clean your tolets, streets and hospitals but not good enough to be treated as equal human beings. Your the lazy one with your warped anti everything ideas! Maybe you should become the first Hungarian to stand up in public, in front of Roma families and say what you think! No I didn`t think so, your a yellow bellied coward. Why do you hate so much, unhappy childhood, rejected at school. Well take a good long hard look at what racism and hatred brings. Only more hatred and eventually destruction on those who sow the seeds of evil.Love thy neighbour.
Orban – Think before you write such drivel. Examine the nature of my anger and realize I was commenting on someone who preaches tolerance and understanding while he is being charged with a felony and his cohorts are pillaging Hungary. My friend, when a group(in this case the gypsies) goes on rampages, as though it were a cool clip from an action movie without any consequences then, yes, I unfalteringly become alarmed. If you actually condone such comments and actions, and further if you’re aware that the gypsies have received all help the Hungarians could possibly provide, nevertheless they just keep demanding, terrorizing and stealing form the law-abiding citizens, then it is I, sir, who is direly ashamed of sharing the planet with people like you.
I thank you for your comments valdo! I found a link to your origins on the net, now I understand your pain. My condolences to your parents.
Gay Joe,Gullible.
Looks like I touched a nerve !! So go ahead you who know the law, and sue…
It will be a waste of time if you REALLY know law regarding comments on web pages,but go ahead Kids.
The evidence is here,your constant childish remarks ,my self confessed mistake was to even bother to reply.
Now grow up,get a life ,a girl friend (Oh ! sorry,forgot that joe only likes boys)and debate like adults.
Bernie
You do not belong here,only on an hopefully temporary basis until you are made redundant or your contract expires,I however am part Hungarian,have citizenship and family,have two businesses here. CLEAR
Now stop bothering me with your dribble and fallacies and fantasies.
Ricsi, the Hungarian criminal doesn’t grasp the seriousness of his crime. Comments on a web page are one thing. Death threats are something else. Expect the police to be knocking at you door in a couple of weeks. Then we’ll see how smart you are.
Go for it
Back on topic after all the pathetic distractions
81% of Hungarians surveyed say they have no respect for Gypsies–Now is the time to address this problem before violence on all sides escalates,and throwing money into hair brained schemes in the middle of a major recession will not solve the problem.
Serious suggestions are welcome for debate please,as I genuinely do fear this is going to get out of control.
Ricsi, the pathetic Hungarian racist criminal now pretends he wants to have a discussion. He is always looking for ways to spread his hatred.
Józsi, a kurva anyádat!
Richy – No one will honestly answer your questions because you will twist and distort whatever answer is given. It’s time to go.
Gay joe
Whats up,scared of a simple discussion ?
Oh ! and stop panicking for I would not even waste time going to your gay parade let alone waste energy attacking you or any other faggot,you should all die of self inflicted AIDS soon enough.
Then go C’est Moi,and please close the door behind you.
Ricsi,
Here is your crime from the Hungarian Penal Code (BTK).
BTK. 176/A. §
Zaklatás
(2) Aki félelemkeltés céljából
a) mást vagy rá tekintettel hozzátartozóját személy elleni erőszakos vagy közveszélyt okozó büntetendő cselekmény elkövetésével megfenyeget, vagy
b) annak a látszatnak a keltésére törekszik, hogy a sértett vagy hozzátartozója életét, testi épségét vagy egészségét sértő vagy veszélyeztető esemény következik be, vétséget követ el, és két évig terjedő szabadságvesztéssel, közérdekű munkával vagy pénzbüntetéssel büntetendő.
Joe,
All you have to do is send a registered letter to the District Attorney and press charges. I’ll help you write it if you want.
As to dog turd, civilized people don’t just walk around it, they clean it up, which is what I’m trying to do.
Gullible
That’s sweet,nice to see you two sticking together,just watch when you bend over for the soap,he’s gay !
Ricsi,
United Kingdom law on acts of hate against gays:
“The Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 amended Part 3A of the Public Order Act 1986. The amended Part 3A adds, for England and Wales, the offence of inciting hatred on the ground of sexual orientation. All the offences in Part 3 attach to the following acts: the use of words or behaviour or display of written material, publishing or distributing written material, the public performance of a play, distributing, showing or playing a recording, broadcasting or including a programme in a programme service, and possession of inflammatory material. In the circumstances of hatred based on religious belief or on sexual orientation, the relevant act (namely, words, behaviour, written material, or recordings, or programme) must be threatening and not just abusive or insulting.”
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2008/en/08en04-g.htm
I advise you to get a good (bilingual) lawyer.
Ricsi,
Here is the Hungarian equivalent law (Penal Code BTK):
174/B. §
Közösség tagja elleni erőszak
1) Aki mást valamely nemzeti, etnikai, faji, vallási csoporthoz vagy a lakosság egyes csoportjaihoz tartozása vagy vélt tartozása miatt bántalmaz, illetőleg erőszakkal vagy fenyegetéssel arra kényszerít, hogy valamit tegyen, ne tegyen vagy eltűrjön, bűntettet követ el, és öt évig terjedő szabadságvesztéssel büntetendő.
(2) A büntetés két évtől nyolc évig terjedő szabadságvesztés, ha a bűncselekményt
a) fegyveresen,
b) felfegyverkezve,
c) jelentős érdeksérelmet okozva,
d) a sértett sanyargatásával,
e) csoportosan,
f) bűnszövetségben
követik el.
(3) Aki a közösség tagja elleni erőszakra irányuló előkészületet követ el, vétség miatt két évig terjedő szabadságvesztéssel büntetendő.
All these laws are coordinated under Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights and Recommendation R (97) 20 by the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe.
As to your identity: it will simply be subpoenad from MATAV and the ISP-s of the various websites you soiled. This includes jobbik.hu.
They will love you for this. You will have helped the Orban govermnet to crush Jobbik.
Well Gulliver seems like you are guilty of breaking that law yourself, calling me a Nazi, Rascist and a far right radical etc, is far from the truth , you are the radical! You are boxing in anyone that has an alternative veiw, when we have use facts to debate! So go fly a Kite!
You can only have a debate with intelligent people. Gulli has the IQ of a radish. Pretty common in the Pacific Northwest where he hangs out these days. Dumb liberals, they all look the same to me…
Stan,
Here is a challange for you.
We both take a supervised IQ test in either English or Hungarian or both (your choice) in the Pacific Northwest or anywhere else. The loser shoots himself.
Gulli says: “The loser shoots himself.”
Care to give that in writing? I’ve never scored under 160. It’s not too high, but should be more than enough to beat you, in English or Hungarian or both. Rest in peace.
@Gulliver, Stan – I think shooting oneself is a bit extreme. How about the loser leading this year’s gay parade in a thong. Should be funny to See Stan (or Emily) play.
Here`s a prezzie for Hotpaprika,Stan and Ricsi with their anti-Gypsy sentiments. Here is one reason why Jobbik, Magyar Garda and all their cronies will fail with their hatred. A looser is a looser, a few skinheads gathering dressed up in black is like a wet fart in a gale.
Watch and weep why you all a bunch of loosers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZS2GthG1hQ&feature=PlayList&p=CFDBC632CD2B86A7&playnext=1&index=24
Reply to: Bernie at February 15, 2009 12:05 PM
Pathetic attempt of yours at being sarcastic, devoid of true wit.
Stan “I’ve never scored [on an IQ test] under 160″
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
@Bernie
Would you just not talk about things you do not
know? So everybody who does not band for that
communist party what is a same party since they
were cheating at the elections on 1948 and so on
and on, who does not like people live traditionally thievery, beating up your grand ma
and grand pa, raping your daughter, stealing your
money are just simple Natzis? Is it a normal
liberal value of yours? Seems as, nice…
Gypos just plain Jane robb you if they “if there
were given a fair chance” or thinking “dropping”
another child will raise social benefits and they
do not have to care for them the stupid “peasants”
(if you’d know gipos, you’d know this how they
call us…)will feed them anyway… And if you
raise a word against the they will cover your door
with human excrement… oh and those commies and
liberals who were robbing this country more than
50 years now and those westerns who’s benefitted
on their”Sale” of the country tag you as a
natzi…
@Stan: Let me get this right you have the IQ of 160 (e.g., Nobel Prize winners), so you are a self-declared ‘genius’ with a rarity of 99.99999996% of the population or 1 in 2,499,999,793?
No, I’m only asking, but are you sure about that?
Feel free to correct my math. I’d be honoured!
I just checked online, I have an IQ of 165! I am smarter than Stan! Now I am going to solve the Goldbach conjecture, which I am sure Stan wouldn’t even consider because he most likely is a Jew and because his IQ is lower than mine.
C’est Moi > Stan
Wait. Are all of you seriously saying that there is no “Gypsy” crime? Don’t get me wrong, I’m pretty much a stereotype New York jew, and consider myself extremely open-minded, but it irks me that so many Hungarians truly do live in fear over this. I’ve lived in Budapest for 5 years, and my wife is Hungarian, and we always have arguments over Gypsies, since, as someone who considers himself relatively tough, I don’t back down when people try to intimidate me on the street, but my wife always gets upset with me and tells me i’m going to get stabbed one day. Why is that? It doesn’t make you wonder how the majority of Hungarians genuinely live in fear over this? I know at least 10 people here in Budapest who either had there homes broken into or there was an attempt to break into there home, myself included. Stupidly I chased them into the street(VII District), wearing my papucs, lol, and almost got stabbed for my trouble. Not to say that I’ll paint all cigany with the same brush, but it begs the question, why do so many people here worry about it. Don’t give me a statement that it’s the media’s fault, or societies, since that’s nothing but crap. They tried that for years in the US, blaming society for selling drugs, robbery, etc, and that doesn’t wash anymore. Point is, do any of you wonder why so many people live in fear? Could it be because it actually happens to be true?
No one has denied that crimes are being committed.
Crime committed by gypsies ≠ ‘”Gypsy” crime’
Nor does the misuse of that label address the problems it pretends to be concerned about.
What are your suggestions Will?
Ah well, I_B, thats the point, I’ve never claimed to be a sociologist, I’m actually a High School dropout, but I’m pretty sure that everything the government has “tried” to do to address the problem isn’t working. I say “try” as the measures are either half-assed or completely wasted. The thing is, that in New York, even in the worst projects, there was always a part of those communities who genuinely cared about the how they were perceived, and (yeah, i’m talking about black people), who instituted neighborhood watch programs, worked with the police, and on and on. Who’s kids actually went to school, and pulled themselves out of the ghetto. Having said that, the point is that they themselves were usually the catalyst for change, not the government. Granted, Prop 187 helped, though I personally feel that Prop 187 is not so good anymore, but thats neither here nor there. The point is that any change has to come from inside the community first. I’m not the most knowledgeable source,but as far as i know, the urbanization movement hasn’t worked, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A1nov). Forcing the kids into one school also doesn’t work, and again, I’m making a sweeping generalization, but all i hear from teachers and students is that it tends to disrupt the class, and the kids who want to learn are the ones who lose the most. Bottom line, they need to want to change first. Oh, and the welfare system, giving money per X amount of kids, that needs to change also
Not all gypsies are criminals, so let’s get the “racist” label out of the way.
Gypsy crime by definition means two things:
1.Crimes typical to gypsies
2.”Regular” crimes committed mostly by gypsies
Typical gypsy crimes are for example:
1.Going door to door, pretending to be very interested in buying various things for big bucks. If they are allowed inside, they’ll find a way to help themselves to whatever isn’t nailed down. Preying mostly on the elderly.
2.Selling the stolen goods on street corners everywhere.
3.Stealing anything that IS nailed down, including the nails as long as it’s believed to be made of metal.
4.Usury with mafia style enforcement.
5.Lynching
There are more, the above list is only a sample for illustration purposes, these are the crimes that grow out of the gypsy kulture and rarely if ever committed by white folks.
Regular crimes, suchs as burglary, theft, robbery and such are not typical gypsy crimes, but gypsies are represented in disproportionately high numbers.
Of course this doesn’t mean that I approve any kind of crime, gypsy or “white collar” or other, only a brief explanation where the term “gypsy crime” comes from. Now you know.
Will,
Is it much different from “black” crime in major cities in the US. It’s really an issue with coming from the underclass rather than being an issue of race, it’s just easier to classify by race. In the UK, since the country is “white” in theory, they just label the group as Yobs to distinguish.
Stan, real quick, I’ve actually been reading about the “gypsy mafia”, and there attempts in extortion, like in what they were attempting to do in Veszprem, i.e. u pay us a certain amount monthly, and we’ll make sure nothing happens….Interestingly enough, thats the oldest organized crime technique, the difference being that with the Italians in NY, they actually would protect the establishment, so that if your restaurant was burgled, they pay, or find the culprits and ensure it didn’t happen again. Don’t get me wrong, I hate the mob, and think it’s ridiculous how most people glamorize Gotti and his ilk, but I find it interesting to think what would happen if you actually did pay protection money here in Hungary, and something did happen to your business, what are the odds that you’d get something back from your protectors
, lol. Also, yes, crime is crime, but what irritates me is how PC the governments become regarding terminology. When the stabbing was first reported, if i remember correctly, the AP, pulling the story off MTI said that it was done by people suspected of being of Gypsy origin. What a vague, wishy-washy statement. When the police put out an APB, should they say light brown male, 5’5″?? they certainly say caucasian male, black male, etc, why can’t they say Gypsy male? C’est moi, google the profiling case from New Jersey a few years back, makes for interesting reading, and relates directly to what your talking about.
Will,
The gypsy mafia only provides “basic services”, if you pay them they may or may not leave you alone, that’s all. “Protection” is not their main source of income. They like to put money on the street at ridiculously high interest, no one can ever pay that, so many poor people, including lots of gypsies will lose their homes to them.
Other activities include “grand theft auto”, wholesale stolen and smuggled goods, and recreational stabbing.
Hungarian guys get drunk at times and may beat up each other to let off some extra testosterone steam, but they rarely do it with knives and axes and other killing instruments, and not 20 against one. Guys will be guys, they fight but rarely intend to do any serious harm, a bloody nose or a black eye will do in most cases, then they buy each other a drink or two, and it all becomes a nice memory.
Gypsies attack in large numbers, carry knives and swords, and it ain’t worth the trouble to get into an argument with them. If you win the fight you’ll end up in prison for “hate crime”. If you lose, it’s the hospital or the cemetery.
I’ve been a New Yorker for more than 20 years, and I had very little problems with blacks, of course I don’t hang out on Flatbush Avenue or in the Bronx too much. I’m not looking for gypsies in Hungary, but it’s hard to avoid them and they can be a pain.
Disclaimer: Not all gypsies are criminals and not all criminals are gypsies, I am not a racist, etc. You can observe a lot just by watching…
Heh, Stan, I went to High School in the Bronx, and where I grew up in Queens was the car theft capitol of New York, so I’m pretty familiar with most. As for the interest, I’m actually curious now, since I worked on Wall Street from 94 to 98, when it was infested by the mob, and knew way to many mobsters. Having said that, generally, standard mafia loansharking is a 3 to 5 point vig (interest rate), compounded weekly. Not a big deal on 500, but difficult for 5,000. Add the compounding interest, and it’s more or less impossible. The people I’ve spoken too in Hungary tell me it’s generally a lump sum payment, like 25% yearly, or whatever the terms of the loan.
As for the sword thing, my wife tells me that last year, a bunch of Gypsy’s were marching down the main thoroughfare in, ah, the first big balaton town, from the M7, can’t remember, all carrying swords and knives and whatnot, yet the police did nothing and denied it ever took place. I’d love to hear some confirmation.
Will,
I used to live in an “affordable” part of Queens. I was a cab driver then, working the night shift, I remember the distinct smell of gunsmoke early in the morning. Good okd days…
As for the loan sharks, the mob is even worse then banks in Hungary. Many people end up borrowing more just to pay the interest, (pretty much like our government) and unless they hit the lottery jackpot they are bound to lose everything. No bankruptcy protection here.
I believe the “march of the gypsy mob” was in Siofok, there are videos of it on Youtube.
Disclaimer: I’m not a racist, void where prohibited, must be 18 or older to enter, batteries are not included, some assembly required, may be too intense for some viewers,
do not use while operating a motor vehicle or heavy equipment, price does not include taxes, use only in well-ventilated area, no other warranty expressed or implied. Do not write below this line.
Stan,
“Gypsy crime by definition means two things:”
In English – I don’t know if this is true of Hungarian – when one noun is used to pre-modify another, the first noun usually functions as classifier rather than a mere describer. In this case, a classifier usually defines a type of crimes rather than attribute it to a particular type of criminal.
For example, (following a whirl-wind tour of wikipedia)
“white collar crime – fraud, bribery, insider trading, embezzlement, computer crime, and forgery.”
“War crimes – “violations of the laws or customs of war”; including but not limited to “murder, the ill-treatment or deportation of civilian residents of an occupied territory to slave labor camps”, “the murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war”, the killing of hostages, “the wanton destruction of cities, towns and villages, and any devastation not justified by military necessity”.”
“Sex crimes – crimes of violence that involve sex, incest, sodomy, indecent exposure or exhibitionism”
(cont.)
(cont.)
But qualifying “crime” with “gypsy” implies there is set of crimes that are unique to gypsies: but none of the examples you give – theft, exhortion, even lynching – are unique to gypsy culture.
If an office worker committed murder that murder wouldn’t be a white collar crime; if a soldier stole from a civilian’s house during wartime that wouldn’t be a war crime; if Jack the Ripper cheated on his expenses that wouldn’t be a sex crime: and If a gypsy stole, extorted or lynched that wouldn’t make these offences “gypsy crime”.
I’m merely making a grammatical point, I’m open minded about the existence of gypsy crime . To emphasise this, in the context of the UK, it is possible that honour killing is a Muslim crime, and sacrificial infanticide a sub-saharan African crime. But the vast majority of crimes committed by Muslims and Africans in the UK are the usual ones that everybody else does too.
Sophist,
Could you please ignore my posts? I’ll do the same for you. We are from two different worlds, reality is just not for you, so we have nothing to talk about. Play with the other kids.
Stan,
You don’t get to censor other people’s comments.
A little self-censorship would be appreciated, however.
You are on, by the way, genius.
Gulli says: “You don’t get to censor other people’s comments”.
I didn’t “censor” anyone’s comments. You’re the one with zero manners, threatening people with meaningless legal jargon and other nonsense. Get a grip. What makes you think your opinion is any more valid than mine?
Stan,
You seem to have remarkable cognitive difficulties for someone with an IQ of 160+.
You asked Sophist to leave your posts unchallanged, ie. not to post.
I, on the other hand, only pointed out the consequences of hate speech. The “meaningless legal jargon” is the actual text of the relevant laws.
Nobody censored your posts. Indeed they are still up there for all to see, including this gem:
“Thanks to our fascist government, we are no longer allowed to express our opinion in public, which makes Budapest safe for eggs, gays, gypsies, jews, liberals and other foreigners.”
Stan at February 15, 2009 12:15 AM – see above.
Let’s see: the fascist government created the undesirable situation where Budapest is SAFE for gays, gypsies, jews, liberals and foreigners…
This clearly indicates that you wish they were NOT SAFE.
Then, you accuse me of being threatening. Go figure.
To answer your question: this kind of nonsense is what makes me think that your opinions are less valid than mine or Sophist’s.
As to manners, your primitive insults liberally sprinkled above leave serious doubts about your upbringing, boy.
Gulli, I reread Stan’s posts, and didn’t see any insults at all. He just said ignore his posts and he’d ignore sophists posts. Big deal. Are we all so sensitive that someone can actually find that insulting??? thats ridiculous. And Sophist, Gypsy Crime in the Hungarian usage doesn’t actually refer to a subclass as in your stated examples like white-collar crime, etc. Keep in mind that these are literal translations of the Hungarian text, so Orban for example states that there is no Gypsy crime, merely crimed perpetrated by people of Gypsy origin, or some such wishywashy statement, but again, i don’t think it was ever intended as a classification.
On a side note, i do so love how these posts always become a flame session. I’m just waiting for someone to say “my dad can kick your dads butt!! Neener neener neener, I’m rubber you’r glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks on to you”. Seriously, we all have differing opinions, some left, some right, why do you all feel the need to go off on someone. And Gulli, again, quoting criminal code doesnt really make anyone feel threatened. To the contrary, you just escalate the arguments. Just saying….
Ooh, look at the gipsyking. Must have hit on some true points to make a gipsy do something other than their usual criminal activities. I bet he had to take a break afterwards, it was almost like work for him. As far back as he goes on his breeding chart (family tree) there isn’t one male listed in the “father” category and he wants wants to lecture others? Pathetic inbreed!
Will,
You didn’t read carefully enough:
“Józsi, a kurva anyádat!”
Stan at February 15, 2009 5:49 PM
This is from this very same thread, see above.
In English it means: ‘Joe, your mother is a whore.’
I suggest the following:
1./ Post to your heart’s content but be prepared to be challenged.
2./ Don’t violate the law unless you are willing to pay the price. This still leaves lots of room for arguments, constructive or otherwise. It also makes the environment more agreeable.
3./ Don’t attack people or groups personally. If you do you may be attacked back.
4./ Try arguments instead of bluster. I know it’s not easy. But it works.
Gulliver, you ever heard the statement that whoever ends up using foul language obviously lost the argument. Also, have i actually blustered or threatened? As far as i can see, I’ve either stated facts, or my personal opinions. I’m just stressing to you that the constant name calling and threats are pretty much baseless on an theoretically anonymous blog.
Moving on, time to establish my bonafides to vandorlo on another post.
Actually, one more thing, intelligent debate is always good, it’s just a bit pitiful how when someone doesnt agree with someone else that person is immediately subject to insults.
Will,
Again, you didn’t read carefully enough.
The foul language comment IS A QUOTE from Stan himself, as indicated by the quotation marks and the date and time reference. If you scan these pages you will see numerous others from him and his soulmates.
Otherwise I agree with your latest comment.
Just reading the blogs from people in here, I see people who are Hungarian, have Hungarian blood or Hungarian wanna be`s really are so full of hatred and can`t argue without insulting others. Most of my Hungarian friends are different thank god, and even those who are right wing are open to discussion in a constructive manner.
Constructive and valid points are here, yet certain bloggers can`t and won`t agree on a single point of view put forward. Either they are mentally challenged, on drugs or medication, if not maybe they should or simply get off and just dissing people. It`s like trying to reason with a skinhead or football holigan who sadly have little or no strong empathy for human beings outside of their `social circles`. Tell me 5 things positive about yourselves and the Hungary you want to live in, without anything about agression, negative about others, or anything detrimental to any group or people. I challenge you..Hotpaprika, Stan, Ricsi, Will, Valdo and whatever names you go under.
Will,
“And Sophist, Gypsy Crime in the Hungarian usage doesn’t actually refer to a subclass as in your stated examples like white-collar crime, etc. Keep in mind that these are literal translations of the Hungarian text, so Orban for example states that there is no Gypsy crime, merely crimed perpetrated by people of Gypsy origin, or some such wishywashy statement, but again, i don’t think it was ever intended as a classification.
Usually enough, I pretty much agree with Orban’s analysis. English speakers misunderstand and get irate about “gypsy crime” because of the usage issues I highlighted. Orban’s comment suggests that Hungarian speakers do likewise. The more accurate translation maybe a wishy-washy statement but it better reflects the reality – more crime among gypsies rather than a unique gypsy criminal culture.
But this may not be an honest mistake, it could be that political types could be deliberately manipulating language to advance their agenda: it’s happened before.
Will: “Gypsy Crime in the Hungarian usage doesn’t actually refer to a subclass as in your stated examples like white-collar crime” So are you a Hungarian jew then? How much Hungarian do you speak? How can you say this with so much certainty?
Bernie
Wow! Don’t you realize what you are saying amounts to same as what you accuse others of??? Let me quote you from this page: “I feel sorry for all these limp dicks who think by putting on a uniform will make them into real men”. Its people like you, intolerant and belligerent, that make this world a nasty place to live in. After all, you know the “TRUTH” and in your world of “tolerance”, anyone that has a different opinion should just be silenced or indited for hate-speech, right?!
Actually, what led to this situation(when the gypsies are pillaging Hungary without any concern for the lives of others) I allude to and lead you through in an educated manner, was not as much the responsibility of hatred as you seem to suggest, but rather the ignorance of people(such as yourself, for example) and the laziness the gypsies who refuse to chomp down at the bit in an effort to buttress said reign of hate and poverty.
… It is just a matter of opinion!! One person committing a crime can not justify punishing an entire race! SURE YOU CAN, you are doing it!
@Bernie Challenge!! What a joke, go pick a fight with someone who cares what your opinion is! I really dont give a dam, you have no desire to debate only pile on the hate speech agenda, so just chill out and have a joint, a nice relaxing bath or whatever releases the tension, obviously you guys are psycho bloggers! get a life instead of carrying on like secret KGB Mossad agents, As soon as one disagrees you send the Mossad Avengers to the rescue, you are the dangerous beings to our society . God bless, Jesus said to his disciples not to cast their pearls before swine.
I_B, I pretty clearly stated that I was American, and yes, yes, I’m not fluent in Hungarian (BOO, HISS), but if you read my earlier posts, my wife is Hungarian and has been a translator for years, and she’s the one who I get my translations from. Also, reading in the context of what Orban said, the context of the article made it pretty clear to me, but, I could be wrong, right? Also, H_P, when you keep on putting down Bernie, telling him to smoke a joint, etc, you’re obviously not intending him to continue the debate. Personally, I despise ultra right-wingers, deniers, and all that crap, but, honestly, I can’t imagine any writing here swaying your opinion, which is why I’m not insulting anyone or putting anyone down, since it’s completely pointless. Furthermore, and again, i said it in an earlier post, and real change from the Roma must come from within. It’s all well and good for that Roma MP from Fidesz to talk about how they’re treated, and whatnot, but I don’t see her actually moving into the real bad Gypsy villages. Personally, and yes, this is simply my opinion, but until the welfare system actually changes, where you’re not compensated so well for the amount of children you have, no one will change. Where’s the motivation? If you need not work, yet still get income, why would you take it upon yourself to change? It’s the old communist mindset, why work harder, we’ll still get the same wages, and on and on.
Also, let me inject a topic that’s rather relevant. About 6 years or so ago, there was a big court case in New Jersey, concerning racial profiling. The New Jersey state police was accused of being overly aggressive to blacks, pulling them over constantly, etc etc. When the trial came up, the state police lost the case, which personally i find a bit ridiculous. Here’s my point. In Newark, Patterson, and Rahway for example, the majority of crime was in fact committed by Blacks, upwards of 70% or so. So, it stands to reason then that the cops would in fact more often pull over black drivers. Applying this to Hungary, (and I’m not an expert, never said i was, and didn’t look at any data), does anyone have the actual figures regarding crimes, and what percentage is actually done by Gypsys? If that percentage is substantially higher, what would you suggest the cops do? For that matter, I’ve rarely if ever seen a cop walk a beat, I just see them hanging out smoking cigarettes. When i walk down Szemere utca, by the courthouse, i only ever see Gypsy’s waiting by that prison there. Again, this is a general observation so please refrain from flaming me. Point is, is there a disproportionate amount of crime being committed by gypsys, and if so, how would you prefer the police refer to it as?
@will. I respect your views mate, and hope you don’t become a victim to the Mob mentality
We can only form opinions and beliefs from one another and unfortunately over time I have been named many things on this site, but it’s like water off a ducks back, i also have dished it back no doubt no dennying that, we are continuously evolving with our beliefs as we get exposed to new information. I myself have Jewish mates who were the ones that highlighted to me that not all that is written about Holocaust is how it appears, and once it came from a person questioning there own Jewish origins then I started to loosen up to the fact that much of the History taught about this era is to protect a certain ideology, and the more I investigated the more secrets were exposed. But one thing is for sure, no one can force anyone to believe until they are ready to accept the teachings themselves, between the radical ones on this site 
we have different beliefs and don’t see eye to eye on everything, but one thing we have in common is focusing on building a nation with morals and ethics, exposing the lies and corrupt people in government I don’t care what background their from, if the are corrupt they are ousted, simple, just that it seems the powers to be recently have been on average the ones that have hate speeches protecting them, so it’s a safety net for the criminals. Cheers mate
Gully says: “The foul language comment IS A QUOTE from Stan himself”.
No, my illiterate friend. It was a quote from a Kossuth and 2 times József Attila Award winning Hungarian author. “Jozsi” (Joe) is a talking pig from one of his satires.
If you remember, our Joe, the Canadian Jozsi was busy the other daz posting “idiot Hungarians” comments every five minutes. I think my response was adequate at the time.
I much prefer an open debate and a friendly discussion, but it’s not always easy to find good people, like Will for example, who are capable of a good argument without insults.
And Gulli, you spend way too much time as a “fogadatlan prokátor” here. You don’t have to insert your PC enforcements between other people’s posts, directed at each other (see Stan – Sophist).
This is a free discussion board, pretty much anything goes, it’s only recommended to use better judgement and mind your manners.
Will,
“Point is, is there a disproportionate amount of crime being committed by gypsys, and if so, how would you prefer the police refer to it as?”
I agree a disproportionate of crime is being committed by gypsies in Hungary, and Blacks in the USA and all variety of ethnic groups in the UK. I can understand why the police need to tackle and hence to refer to white-collar crime differently to street crime. But I don’t understand why the police need to refer to street crime committed by gypsies as gypsy crime and street crime committed by “white” Hungarians presumably as something else.
Despite the situation in Miscolc, there have been three crimes or attempted crimes in my street this year. A empty house was broken into – perpetrators unidentified; four gypsies tried to burgle my yard, went away when confronted by my wife; and the old lady who lives at the bottom of the street had her arm broken in four places when she was mugged, perpetrators two “white” Hungarians.
Ethnic classifications make sense if you are going to tackle crime through racial policies: racially targeted stop and search, segregation, apartheid, ethnic cleansing. I know Hungarians who think the final solution will be the only effective one. How far would you go?
(cont.)
(cont.)
Will,
as a Jew, you might like to reflect on the perception of “Jewish” crime in the 19th century London. In Oliver Twist, Dickens
“wrote that Fagin was considered an “archetypical Jewish villain.”The first 38 chapters of the book refer to Fagin by his racial and religious origin 257 times, calling him “the Jew”, with just 42 uses of “Fagin” or “the old man”. In 2005, novelist Norman Lebrecht described this as “A more vicious stigmatisation of an ethnic community could hardly be imagined.”
What were these archetypical “Jewish” crimes: organising gangs of child pickpockets, fencing stolen goods, conspiracy to armed robbery, and if you have read the book as closely as I have, child prostitution. Do you think “Jewish” crime was a useful concept in tackling crime in 19thC London? And that the social and political costs of supporting this stereotype of “Jewish” crime were worthwhile?
Dickens didn’t: when he wrote “Our mutual friend” he introduced a positive Jewish Character, Riah to counteract the influence of Fagin. Unfortunately, no one remembers him.
Sophist,
I will begrudgingly grant you that point regarding the labeling of crimes, like Gypsy crime, etc, since you actually make a valid case about the same kind of violent crime being committed by White Hungarians down your block. But, and again, without being PC, how do you refer to it? What irks me is how in fear the current government is too even offend anyone, going so far as to say that the crimes were committed by persons of supposed gypsy origin. If the doer was black, white, chinese, arab, gypsy, why cant the police simply state that, instead of b*tching out over the descriptive. As for what actions to take, (and this is complete hearsay, with no factual evidence that i’ve ever been able to uncover), my Wife is constantly telling me that theres some kind of rule amongst the police that they’re supposed to handle the Gypsy’s with kid gloves, not really coming down hard on them for various violent crimes. I find that incredible to believe and it sickens me, but, again, I HAVE NO PROOF, i am simply repeating something that has been told to me. She also tells me that most of these actions lie at the feet of the SZDSZ, again, no proof, not stated as a fact, simply repeating an observation made to me. I for one can’t believe it, since when i walk near the house of detention on Nagy Ignac, I only ever see Gypsies waiting outside for their family to make bail or to visit. And again, bottom line, in my humble opinion, the only real change can be made by the Gypsy
I wonder if it’s PC to call the various New York and New Jersey and other organizations by their old names:
Italian Mafia, Russian Mafia, Jewish Mafia, Chinese Mafia, Federal Reserve Bank, etc.
Just curious…
Will: “…I’m not fluent in Hungarian (BOO, HISS), but if you read my earlier posts, my wife is Hungarian and has been a translator for years, and she’s the one who I get my translations from…” So when you said “Gypsy Crime in the Hungarian usage doesn’t actually refer to a subclass as in your stated examples like white-collar crime” you were quoting your wife? You don’t actually know this to be true yourself as your Hungarian isn’t good enough to say?
According to your wife noun-noun adjectival compounds are different in their connotation in Hungarian than in English? Does she believe to be a linguistic property of Hungarian or a cultural one?
Let me give you a clue – what you just wrote is nonsense.
I_B, thank you for the vocabulary lesson, my head is bloody and bowed.
Moving on, as far as i can recall, one of the earliest Jewish stereotypes in literature was Shylock from the Merchant of Venice, a term still used rather often in New York for loansharks.
Regarding 19th C London, if I recall correctly, for a time the Ripper was thought to be a jew because of the rather large Jewish population there. For that matter, supporters of Tottenham Hotspur are still called the Yid’s (though they use that name as a supporters badge, not as an insult) because of the large Jewish population in Whitehart. Oh, and finally, someone help me out, can someone point out the country “Jew” on the map? I for one am an American who happens to be Jewish. I’ve never really met anyone who describes themselves as catholic. Has anyone ever noticed that only Muslims and Jews are described as such, not Syrian, not algerian, just Muslim. I know as I’m writing this that i’m a fool to even do it, as it’s inviting a host of sh*t comments from everyone, but it’s food for thought.
W
Hmm, I_B, another thing. I always qualify my statements unless i’m quoting specific info, so what more do you want. Didn’t i say in that same post “that I could be wrong”. Seriously, why the need to always prove everyone wrong, or make them idiots. I’m not just talking about you, i’m talking about the general tone. Fine, one more time, I COULD BE WRONG HERE!. Anything else i can do? And to point out a something that should be self evident, I’m posting and reading an english language website, so if i spoke Hungarian, i’d post there, right? So, lets get this out of the way. I’m not Hungarian, never claimed to be Hungarian, have a mediocre vocabulary, and only lived here for 5 1/2 years. Happy everyone?
Will,
“If the doer was black, white, chinese, arab, gypsy, why cant the police simply state that, instead of b*tching out over the descriptive.”
At the time of the Olaszliszka lynching, I came across a very similar lynching in Texas.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110010238
After the gypsy crime circus kicked off in Hungary, it was odd to notice that no racial epithets were used in the reporting of the Texas lynching.
“That may be a good decision. There is something to be said for the journalistic practice of leaving race out of crime stories in the absence of a compelling reason to include it (such as the physical description of a suspect on the loose, or clear evidence that the crime was racially motivated).”
Neither compelling reason would seem to apply to Olaszliszka. Certainly the ensuing circus created a more difficult environment for the police to efficiently prosecute the crime. I would argue that if the police drop their references to ethnicity in their annoucements etc. they could get on with catching criminals without the interference of racial discrimination bureaucrats, civil rights lawyers, sensation seeking journalists and race politicians who are all more likely to be pursuing their own interests than criminal justice.
Will!!your making a lot of sense to me, but thats my opinion
Will – Fine. Just so we are clear. You when you said “Gypsy Crime in the Hungarian usage doesn’t actually refer to a subclass as in your stated examples like white-collar crime” you forgot that you normally do this “I always qualify my statements unless i’m quoting specific info”. You now acknowledge that the term ‘Gypsy Crime’ in both Hungarian and English have an equally misleading meaning and unwelcome stigmatisation of a group of people. You now retract that and will no longer use that term. Is that about right?
@Will – If you’re making sense to Hot Paprika, you may need a wife with better language or explanation skills. But, it’s also possible your understanding needs a tune-up. Shalom.
Humble pie tastes like sh*t. Yes I_B, you’re right. I misinterpreted it, and the usage given in many articles was intended to classify a specific ethnic group. Is everyone happy, have I achieved history as the first poster on P.hu to agree/retract a previous statement? Can we move on? Can we all agree though that a disproportionate amount of crime in Hungary is committed by people of a light brown color?
I’m also going to continue to harp on about something i posted before, nothing can ever truly be done about the crime that may be being committed by people with more melanin in their skin, unless they themselves are the catalyst for change. Im reading about all these Gypsy organizations who are horrified by the actions, but, are they really? Are they themselves now doing community policing, or planning on it? Are they themselves now going to report welfare fraud? Isn’t it mandatory for all children of a certain age to remain in school? Are they ensuring that the kids do in fact remain in school? Real change always comes from within, and until the majority rises up and agitates for change, nothing the politicians do will ever make an iota of difference, oh, and M_M, L’chaim!
Will,
Another thing to consider.
If I recall correctly you said that your wife was a fan of Kuruc.info.
Could it be that her “translations” are not totally precise?
Are you eating the in-laws cooking?
Lmao, Gulliver, I told you she was rather rightwing, she actually at one point changed my homepage to the English language Kuruc website, which I of course changed. I read it once, was disgusted, and stopped….
Did someone call for a new wife?
Will, that’s the thing. If you checked the race of the inmates in any correctional facility, you would invariably find that 60-80% of them are from the gipsy ethnic group. That’s just way out of proportion, since they compose about 6-8% of the population. In my opinion, its just a way of life for them, and sadly, they wouldn’t wanna change. What Kolompar’s comment amounts to, in my opinion, is just sadness. Not because it is inaccurate: I had no expectation of that at all. But this attempt at whitewashing their own responsibilities and still playing the blame game falls flat. I myself am not the least surprised by this, just, in a word, bored. And thus, to each his own.
Wow less name calling and mud slinging here at politics.hu ,,,
apropos the Roma issue, they have had a bum deal ever since they wandered into Europe, not much has changed over the last 700 years.
Antiziganism was rife back in the Middle Ages,
By the 16th century, many Gypsies in Eastern and Central Europe worked as musicians, metal craftsmen, and soldiers. As the Ottoman Turks expanded into the territory of modern Bulgaria, they relegated Gypsies, seen as having “no visible permanent professional affiliation”, to the lowest rung of the social ladder. In Royal Hungary (present-day West-Slovakia, West-Hungary and West-Croatia), strong anti-Gypsy policies emerged since they were increasingly seen as Turkish spies or as a fifth column. In this atmosphere, they were expelled from many locations and increasingly adopted a nomadic way of life. The first anti-Gypsy legislation was issued in Moravia in 1538, and three years later, Ferdinand I ordered that Gypsies in his realm be expelled after a series of fires in Prague. Seven years later, the Diet at Augsburg declared that “whosoever kills a Gypsy, will be guilty of no murder.” In 1556, the government stepped in to “forbid the drowning of Roma women and children.”
CONT.
CONT.
Even in my beloved homeland, the rulers of the day were busy at work doing evil deeds..
the Egyptians Act 1530 banned Roma from entering the country and required those living in the country to leave within 16 days. Failure to do so could result in confiscation of property, imprisonment and deportation. The act was amended with the Egyptians Act 1554, which removed the threat of punishment to Roma if they abandoned their “naughty, idle and ungodly life and company” and adopted a settled lifestyle. However, for those who failed to adhere to a sedentary existence, the punishment was upped to execution.
Then more icing on the Antiziganism cake was back here in Central Europe in the 18th Century ..
n 1710, Joseph I issued an edict against the Gypsies, ordering “that all adult males were to be hanged without trial, whereas women and young males were to be flogged and banished forever.” In addition, they were to have their right ears cut off in the kingdom of Bohemia, in the country of Mähren (Moravia), the left ear. In other parts of Austria they would be branded on the back with a branding iron, representing the gallows. These mutilations enabled authorities to identify them as Gypsies on their second arrest. The edict encouraged local officials to hunt down Roma in their areas by levying a fine of 100 Reichsthaler for those failing to do so. Anyone who helped Gypsies was to be punished by doing a half-year’s forced labor.
CONT
CONT
The result was “mass killings” of Roma. In 1721, Charles VI amended the decree to include the execution of adult female Roma, while children were “to be put in hospitals for education.” In 1774, Maria Theresa of Austria issued an edict forbidding marriages between Gypsies. When a Roma woman married a non-Gypsy, she had to produce proof of “industrious household service and familiarity with Catholic tenets”, a male Rom “had to prove ability to support a wife and children”, and “Gypsy children over the age of five were to be taken away and brought up in non-Gypsy families.”
Looks like the Aussies took a page out of this book with forced removal of Aborigine children for decades.
So then there was the Porajmos
Persecution of Roma reached a peak during World War II in the Porajmos, the Nazi genocide of Roma during the Holocaust. Because the Roma communities of Eastern Europe were less organized than the Jewish communities, it is more difficult to assess the actual number of victims though the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Research Institute in Washington puts the number of Roma lives lost by 1945 at between 500,000 and 1.5 million. Former ethnic studies professor Ward Churchill has argued that the Roma population suffered proportionally more genocide than the Jewish population of Europe and that their plight has largely been sidelined by scholars and the media.
Bernie, I don’t think any rational person will disagree with you that it’s obvious that the Gypsy’s have a pretty raw deal historically. Interestingly enough, forensic linguists have traced the language to a warrior caste in India, with a pretty decent theory that they were actually the front line troops against whoever, (I’m tired, and I don’t really want to start digging in the net for the proper timeframe), but, it’s actually ironic if you think about it, they were the warrior caste, leading the way into battle, and hundreds of years later they’re considered the dregs of society. But, once again, that was then, this is now. I think what concerns most Hungarians, and i’ve obviously never taken an official poll, just when talking to my peers, is whats being done now. And again, I say that without a real catalyst for change within the Gypsy community, real honest outrage over the way some of them act, nothing will ever change. Once again I’ll point out that in New York, the police worked hand in hand with the community leaders to improve certain areas, and only once that was set in motion was any real progress shown. So I still stand by my opinion, that the change has to come from within. Furthermore, I for one personally dislike the excuse of society or politicians being the ones to fan the flame of antiziganism (nice word
) as it’s too easy to fall back on that as a catchall. Were they treated horribly, yes. Should that justify their actions now, NO
@Will
Now we`re getting somewhere…
More Roma policemen to police in areas
of high percentage numbers of Roma.
More Roma social workers.
Engage the Roma more in local county
councils with education, employment
and retraining.
Black people have Obama to look up
to as a role model, more positive role models
for the Roma.
Educate Hungarians about the Roma culture
and have children`s camps with selected Roma
and Hungarian children.
Or maybe you have some suggestions with things
that are proven to harmonize multi ethnic
communities.
More think tanks and less anger.
Good night all…
@Bernie
It is a typical wierd over simplified US idea, of
thinking about Gypos as Blacks… But the matter
of fact that nobody forced Gypos to come here and
if they do not like to be here they can pack there
caravans and move along! After Trianon Hungary
have to focus to save it’s territorial and
cultural integrity from further foreign opression!
I think the west is just using Gypos to break us
down! Gypsy culture? Do you think about thievery
and rape? There music is for me just something unbearable, and their “naive” painters (let’s say
simply not trained D) are a joke, but simply
“Gypsy Culture” are in among the liberal snobs…
And I’m sure you never had a gypo neighbor or
school mate like I did…
Oh and do not forget in Hungary not you and none
your weird mix breed will dictate…
Oh, and about Obama… You might look up to this
person for me he’s only a half breed bisexual
Cocain addict… In my opinion it just officially
prooves that the US has no further link to
European heritage and White Culture at all…
Bernie
Most of us are familiar with the “we want help” cry from those who have suffered misfortune. These days, trying to hold someone else accountable for things that go wrong is a common phenomenon everywhere in the world not just in Hungary. If anything happens to the gypsies in life, someone else has to take the blame. Accepting the reality that often no one is to blame but oneself, is something the gypsies can’t understand. Today’s urge to hold others accountable for their own stupidity or for a lack of omniscience has grown to ridiculous proportions. What drives the Blame Culture? Is it the corrupt MSZP politicians who are too ready to pay out on complaints and sweep everything under the rug? The gypsies that think that they can get away with murder forever? Is it the people like Bernie who-for whatever reason-just don’t want the gypsies to take their fair share of responsibilities in society; while, on the other hand, expect the Hungarians to sweat and toil so that the gypsies can get free houses, paid utility bills and a number of social handouts. Whatever the reason is, a correction will eventually take place. As it has been demonstrated throughout the centuries, if the gypsies don’t want to adopt the European way of life they will suffer the consequences of being kicked out. On top of it, in the end, those who aren’t prepared to accept the realities of life or responsibility for the choices they exercise, will always be hobbled by grievance and unhappiness.
@Anonymous – Robi, your opinion is like an asshole. Full of shit.
Bernie, I agree with many of your sentiments, but I must respectfully disagree with #1, the Roma police. Before you, or anyone else for that matter replies, I want you all to really think for a minute about the current state of the Hungarian Police force. Do any of you really feel they’re doing a good job? Do you really feel they correctly enforce the law? I’ve been pulled over 4 times and never ticketed, just either slip them some money or they don’t bother because of my American Drivers License. Now, and yes, I know I’m going to make a sweeping generalization here, but with the way that the current crop of Hungarian police are ready, willing and eager to accept bribes, and generally completely misuse their authority, can you tell me, in all honesty, that if there was a subunit of the police, staffed entirely by Gypsies, that they wouldn’t also take bribes, and basically be just as, if not more corrupt than the current police? Ok, again, I’m making broad statements, based on only my observations, so of course the chances of me being completely wrong are high up, but, I think that would just be a terrible idea.
Valdo, I agree with your statements about the “blame game”, but, in the current society we live in, it’s impossible that the Gypsies would be forced to move again. Bottom line, and I’ve said it and said it, real change must come from within. While I’m not crazy about the Black Panthers, the point is they inspired the black community.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/dec08.html
Joe, where are you? I’ve enjoyed this immensely.
I’m still here, vigilant as ever against Hungarian idiots. Seems I have my work cut out…
)
And I am here too, ever vigilant against bolsheviks, communists, zionists……
@Naga Jolokia
But yours are full of light!
You just not realise that you cant force a
countrys majority to bend for the minorities
that’s non sense… I the Gypos want proper
education than have them build and maintain there
own schools!
Thank you, Gandi, for “coming out” as a Hungarian idiot.
It’s so nice to know that you’re “vigilant against bolsheviks, communists, zionists……” but why stop there? Why aren’t you vigilant against the Jacobians? Or the Hutterites, for that matter?
I suppose Hungarian idiots aren’t aware of all the evil that is out there. Idiots!
I live in Denmark. But the (hi)story repeats itself: The problem is the same, the gypsies don´t work, their children don`t go to school, a disproportionate involvement in crime etc..
They are really an asset to a society.
And yet there are Roma who work and hold down steady jobs.
Joe
Exception proves the rule. So your trying to bring up such a thing as “there are Roma who work and hold down steady jobs” only hurts your own argument. Unless of course you simply cannot comprehend the importance of RATIOS.
So what’s your solution, Valdo? And tell me why it will work.
Joe, thanks for asking. I’m confident we’re not contemplating anything illegal, Joe. However, it would be helpful for us law-abiding folks to create a system where everyone adheres to our society’s standards and, in criminal cases (of which our brown skinned, itinerant visitors take a disproportionate part of) not only would we have mechanisms to deal with the perpetrators, but also procedures to encourage “would be criminals” to stay just that. So let’s start at the beginning. Suppose you have a couple hundred thousand gypsies in your country. What do you do? We understand that when gypsies are involved, it’s important to make the measures appear to have been legally implemented and in compliance with EU norms. Well, for a start I would recommend a few steps:(1) abolish all social hand outs –the only form of hand out would be in the form of tax credits, (2) make forced labor camps(where they work to pay off the costs of keeping them there) for convicted criminals instead of “correctional facilities,” and (3) make the right to vote tied to paying taxes. This list does not include every measure that should be implemented, but rather the starting points. If you don’t give anything to the gypsies they will starve to death or move elsewhere to leach off of other people. Either of those options will be perfect for Hungary. Simple as that.
No, Valdo, it is not as simple as that. Your suggestion is nothing more than authoritarian claptrap that victimizes the victims.
All three of your suggestions would violate European law.
–>(1) abolish all social hand outs –the only form of hand out would be in the form of tax credits,
So what would happen to poor Hungarian senior citizens who can’t make ends meet? Let them starve or freeze to death?
–>(2) make forced labor camps(where they work to pay off the costs of keeping them there) for convicted criminals instead of “correctional facilities,” and
The communists tried this and it didn’t work out too well, did it?
–>(3) make the right to vote tied to paying taxes.
This would disqualify more Hungarians than Hungarian Roma.
Sorry, but your suggestions will not change anything.
Wanna try again?
Hey Joe, since personal attacks are now in order, why don’t you get an education first before you start calling people “dumb Hungarian”, I’d like to know your ethnicity/nationality/religious background if any, before I return the favour….and yes, I do stand on guard against bolsheviks, communists and zionists, they’ve done more damage in the 20th century than any other political movement has, always targeting the natural majority culture in any given country.
And now, Gandi, the Hungarian idiot, accuses me of calling someone a “dumb Hungarian.” I have never called anyone a “dumb Hungarian” but Gandi wants me to get an education. The dumb fucker can’t even read. And he wants a voice in Hungarian domestic policy!? What a joker.
Ö csak egy nagy szőrös bunkó! Like most Hungarians idiots!!
I guess your brain is very small and forgetful
“Thank you, Gandi, for “coming out” as a Hungarian idiot.”
When you call someone an idiot in all actuality you are calling them dumb, or do you not know the English language?
And up your arse too!
Vislat….
Gandi do not give a lesson how to be Hungarian,
before you know how to spell,V-I-SZ-L-Á-T
D)))))))))))) It is typically shallow and
superficial north-western attitude, you’ve read 3
article and a study on something makes you think
that you know something what you obviously not!
Also living for a few years in the country
separated by language barrier and living en the
exclusive north-western ghetto of “forigners” does
not make you know Hungary only the expats life
here, what is not relevant neither culturally or politically…
Joe, I won’t attempt to rebut your allegations in the order in which you present them. Rather, if you don’t mind, I’ll take them in descending order, starting with the most irrational. You’re saying, it seems (1) disqualification of Hungarians in relation to voting would make proposition collapse,(2) pensions would fall into the category of social hand outs, (3) just because communism fall, the labor camps were not effective deterrent(am I sensing a straw man’s fallacy here?) (4) These measures would be against EU Law. Well now, I don’t see why “This would disqualify more Hungarians than Hungarian Roma” would in any way rebut my argument. Two, people get pensions when they have actually contributed to the system through years of hard work, so that wouldn’t count as hand out. Its rather like a savings account -you have to pay into it in order to receive anything. By and large Hungarians would be fine with that,but I’m sure the gypsies would not. Would you not agree? Third, considering crime rates(not inclusive of political crimes) were a lot lower in communism just proves (not that there needs to be proof) that you have just out-dumbed yourself! Fourth, show me the EU law that forbids these! In the end, it seems that you are the one guilty of making unwarranted assumptions. You assumed you can disregard my comments with half sentence answers and that I didn’t know what I was talking about. Neither of these, I can assure you, is what anyone would call a “safe assumption.”
“Also living for a few years in the country
separated by language barrier and living en the
exclusive north-western ghetto of “foreigners” does
not make you know Hungary only the expats life
here, what is not relevant neither culturally or politically… ”
Hey Robi, given that this is an english language site put together by a non-Hungarian expat here, either deal with it or fuck-off to a Hungarian site where you can be the gatekeeper of who contributes what. You can take all these fake-ass wanna-bes also, judging from his content I think Gandi is one of them as well even though he can spell viszlat.
Vizsla, Robi. If you really want to learn more about Hungary, ask your American uncle. He’ll tell you things about Hungary you didn’t know.
–>
I guess your brain is very small and forgetful
“Thank you, Gandi, for “coming out” as a Hungarian idiot.”
When you call someone an idiot in all actuality you are calling them dumb, or do you not know the English language?
And up your arse too!
Vislat….
I know the English language quite well, thank you very much. But you, obviously, don’t know what quotation marks mean. When you say that I called someone a “dumb Hungarian” (do you remember this line? –>Hey Joe, since personal attacks are now in order, why don’t you get an education first before you start calling people “dumb Hungarian”,) you are quoting me. But I didn’t say that. So, please, brush up on your English language comprehension before you criticize someone. And, after that, you can brush up on your understanding of politics, which, by any meaningful standard, is worse than pathetic.
–> By and large Hungarians would be fine with that,but I’m sure the gypsies would not. Would you not agree?
The Roma are Hungarian too. If you can’t grasp that simple truth, I see no point in continuing this debate.
Please read the report here in the link.
I wonder what are bloggers who are antiziganists can give for constructive comments.
Also Will seems to have a little more common sense and puts forward some valid arguments, even if I don`t always agree with his stan point.
http://www.socio.mta.hu/mszt/19942/csalog.htm
Have a good weekend …
“And, after that, you can brush up on your understanding of politics, which, by any meaningful standard, is worse than pathetic.”
Ha! BTW Joe, did you major in political sciences like I have?
Yes, I did.
BTW, haven’t you heard of a typo? my apologies if I offended the Viszlat minority community….
Joe, referring to your comment: “The Roma are Hungarian too. If you can’t grasp that simple truth, I see no point in continuing this debate”. Can you point out what part of my sentence says that the gypsies are not Hungarian? Let me quote myself: “By and large Hungarians would be fine with that,but I’m sure the gypsies would not.” There is no logical validity in what you’re saying, since I never said that!
That is because he is a lunatic….
–>Can you point out what part of my sentence says that the gypsies are not Hungarian? Let me quote myself: “By and large Hungarians would be fine with that,but I’m sure the gypsies would not.” There is no logical validity in what you’re saying, since I never said that!
Are you being dense on purpose? Or is it your limited English language skills?
If you’re talking about Hungarian Roma, *say* Hungarian Roma. They’re not just Roma, they’re Hungarian Roma and have a legitimate claim to that identity.
Question to
@HP,S,R,V,G, well I guess there are no more than 10 regular bloggers, right and left, cos everytime you don`t see Hotpaprika, Stan or Ricsi, then another name pops up using the same rhetoric. It appears the same with Joe and Will that if one challenges them with a question or the Bloggers in the room, then they will reply.Valdo, Gandi, C`est moi, Hmmm, mawar, Sophist, Gulliver more spradic…
Well apropo my question, how long you guys been at it tooth and nail???
How many weeks/months???
Myself only a couple of weeks.
Lets have a HATE LEAGUE FOOTBALL COMPETITION.
Televised but NO SPECTATORS in the beginning.
Magyar Garda United Vs Roma Garda Wanderers
In-Kal Hammars Vs Jobbik Hun
Slovak Slayers Vs Komaron Killers
Help me out guys…we need more teams to
sign up..
Kick off sometime in April 2009..
Joe giving a great post again. I think you posted on the wrong forum though. Does that correlate my earlier point about so many gypsies and liberals having no education, therefore not being able to find relevant material? Hahaha! Joe, I know you’re desperate and can’t find any material to rebut my arguments, but would you mind refraining from name calling? I will ask you again, as it seems you have difficulty with comprehension. Hungarian and roma don’t have to be tied together to describe a roma that lives in Hungary! You see the examples on the fugitive lists. Hehe. They say Hungarian not Hungarian roma when talking about a gipsy criminal on the loose. If you can’t answer, then don’t bother replying with something totally irrelevant again.
Again, can you POINT OUT what part of my sentence says that the gypsies are not Hungarian? Let me quote myself: “By and large Hungarians would be fine with that,but I’m sure the gypsies would not.”
–>If you can’t answer, then don’t bother replying with something totally irrelevant again.
Again, can you POINT OUT what part of my sentence says that the gypsies are not Hungarian? Let me quote myself: “By and large Hungarians would be fine with that,but I’m sure the gypsies would not.”
If the gypsies (as you insist on calling the Roma) are Hungarian, than your sentence should say: “By and large Hungarians would be fine with that.” Do you notice the little black dot? It’s called a period. If the Roma are Hungarian, your sentence should have a period where I placed it.
Perhaps a lesson in semantics is not what you need. Have you read the article Bernie pointed to?
“Police have not found evidence for this connection, but they did take testimonies from witnesses and former gang associates which suggested a link.”
Interesting WHAT ELSE they have found????
Greetings!
Joe – I dare you to show me the reference to one grammar book that supports your supposition as you’re clearly not the authority on the English language! You are either choosing to believe the lies some of your propaganda books teach you or you are making them up yourself. But the facts are nonetheless the same: my sentence DOES NOT say they are not Hungarian! Unless you are as blind as Ray Charles or you are illiterate then you can see things for what they are just by opening your eyes without bias. Better yet, go and adopt a few gypsies and feed them for your entire life. After all, you’re claiming to be in the vanguard in the fight against intolerance. I dare you!
“By and large Hungarians would be fine with that, but I’m sure the gypsies would not.”
In this senstence: IF “gypsies” = “Hungarians”, THEN this is a contradiction and makes no sense whatsoever; AND, IF “gypsies” = “Hungarian gypsies”, THEN it is still a contradiction because “Hungarian gypsies” are also “Hungarians”: BUT, If “gypsies” = “Hungarian gypsies” AND “Hungarians” = “white Hungarians”, THEN the sentence makes sense.
“By and large white Hungarians would be fine with that, but I’m sure the Hungarian gypsies would not.”
The word that obscures the logic of this sentence is not gypsies but “Hungarians”. When British writers need to make a contrast between gypsies and non-gypsies they don’t use “British”, they use words like:
“Locals”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2270244/Travellers-set-up-camp-near-exclusive-Sandbanks.html
“the housed population”
http://www.travellerslaw.org.uk/issues.html
or, “residents”
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/7669886.stm
Hungarians refer to themselves via “magyar” far more often than the British do via “British”, so I think this is a translation problem not a grammatical one.
What do Americans, Canadians, Australians do?
Thank you, Sophist. You are quite right.
I was trying, perhaps unsuccessfully, to point out the exclusionary nature of Stan’s comment.
–>What do Americans, Canadians, Australians do?
I do what most Canadians do. I call myself Canadian. We do that often, perhaps to neutralize what we see as rampant Americanism, which is less than 100KM from most Canadians.
Máskülönben, kanadai vagyok.
I am lonely!!!
Looking for a nice Hungarian woman ,no Jews, gypsys please
Look me up on google. Type into the search box: hotpaprika 332365
read all about me and see my photos
http://www.parom.hu/main.php?page=member_data&member_id=332365
Hi,
Im originally from Australia. I Have settled in Hungary to live and work and experience Europe. I was born in Australia however my parents are Hungarian and I did learn to speak a little Hungarian and I am looking for a friend or campanion.
I am outgoing, free thinking and love to enjoy life, which life to me is a mystery which I hope to solve, and if I dont I can say at least I didn’t die not trying.
I enjoy fitness , martial arts, alternative lifestyle, live music, jazz, dancing, Dinning, cooking, outdoors, beaches, forrests, nature, reading, movies and meeting interesting positive people. So if you like to meet and chat please dont hesitate to get intouch.
Hotpaprika
we left a message for you on your facebook page check it out ASAP
Fuck Nacivadasz Szovetseg and the Hotpaprika-impersonator asshole.
I am lonely!!!
Looking for a nice Hungarian woman ,no Jews, gypsys please
Look me up on google. Type into the search box: hotpaprika 332365
read all about me and see my photos
http://www.parom.hu/main.php?page=member_data&member_id=332365
Hi,
Im originally from Australia. I Have settled in Hungary to live and work and experience Europe. I was born in Australia however my parents are Hungarian and I did learn to speak a little Hungarian and I am looking for a friend or campanion.
I am outgoing, free thinking and love to enjoy life, which life to me is a mystery which I hope to solve, and if I dont I can say at least I didn’t die not trying.
I enjoy fitness , martial arts, alternative lifestyle, live music, jazz, dancing, Dinning, cooking, outdoors, beaches, forrests, nature, reading, movies and meeting interesting positive people. So if you like to meet and chat please dont hesitate to get intouch.
Antifa Commando:
http://naczivadasz.blogspot.com/
BORING….u guys arguing over full stops now..SAD very sad indeed..
Jeeez Valdo were you beaten up and arse raped by Gypsies as a kid?? Makes me wonder where some people get so much anger and hate from. Would understand if they were Palestinians living in Gaza, but here in Hungary?
I am lonely!!!
Looking for a nice Hungarian woman ,no Jews, gypsys please
Look me up on google. Type into the search box: hotpaprika 332365
read all about me and see my photos
http://www.parom.hu/main.php?page=member_data&member_id=332365
Hi,
Im originally from Australia. I Have settled in Hungary to live and work and experience Europe. I was born in Australia however my parents are Hungarian and I did learn to speak a little Hungarian and I am looking for a friend or campanion.
I am outgoing, free thinking and love to enjoy life, which life to me is a mystery which I hope to solve, and if I dont I can say at least I didn’t die not trying.
I enjoy fitness , martial arts, alternative lifestyle, live music, jazz, dancing, Dinning, cooking, outdoors, beaches, forrests, nature, reading, movies and meeting interesting positive people. So if you like to meet and chat please dont hesitate to get intouch.
Joe,
“I do what most Canadians do. I call myself Canadian.”
What I meant to ask is: what language do Canadians use when there are problems between different ethnic groups in Canada; i.e. “eskimos” (excuse me don’t know the lingo) and European Canadians.
PS I agree that the language Hungarians use is both exclusionary and based on ethnicity. “travellers” and “residents” are also exclusionary, but based on lifestyle not ethnicity.
Sophist –>What I meant to ask is: what language do Canadians use when there are problems between different ethnic groups in Canada; i.e. “eskimos” (excuse me don’t know the lingo) and European Canadians.
The quick answer would be English, simply because it’s the most common. However it’s a bit more complicated than that. English and French are official languages in Canada. French is the official language in Québec. New Brunswick is the only officially bilingual province. In the far north, in Nunavut, English, French and Inuktitut are official languages.
English is the most common language in Canada followed (in order) by French, Chinese, Punjabi, Spanish, Italian, Ukrainian, Arabic, German and Tagalog.
The other major languages are: Vietnamese, Portuguese, Urdu, Polish, Korean, Persian, Russian, Tamil, Greek and Gujarati.
Of course, there are also many aboriginal languages such as: Cree, Inuktitut, Ojibway, Montagnais-Naskapi (Innu), Dene, Oji-Cree (Anishinini), Mi’kmaq, Siouan languages (Dakota/Sioux), Atikamekw, Blackfoot, Tłįchǫ or Dogrib, Algonquin, etc., etc..
Less than 92,000 speak Hungarian, although 270,000 (2001 census) claim Hungarian to be their ethnic background.
Perhaps because there are so many languages spoken in Canada, there are hardly any linguistic tensions, other than the debate over the status of Québec within Canada.
Joe,
I am really fucking this up – but at least I am now much better informed but the ethnic make-up of Canada!!!
In my last post I used “language” as in “a particular style of speaking: i.e. bad/foul/strong language”. In Hungary they contrast Hungarian/Gypsy; in the UK British/Gypsy this would be seen as racist, so we contrast resident/traveller.
There must be some conflict in Canada, for example over land-use, between aboriginals and settlers practising different lifestyles. When these conflicts are reported in the press, what words are used to refer to aboriginal and the settler groups?
Sorry for the confusion and thanks for your patience.
Sophist,
The Aboriginal Peoples of Canada include: Inuit (Eskimo), First Nations (Indian) and Métis (First Nations/European mix).
There are occasional, limited, minor, conflicts over land claims by First Nations peoples. And a lot of Canadians resent much of what they do and what they want. Since they were never conquered, treaties were signed over land use and “ownership.” In general, I think most Canadians are pretty tolerant about Native land claims. Most understand that some kind of money must be paid for all the land that was taken from the First Nations. And there is very little racial prejudice against them. Canadians who dislike them do so for their lifestyle.
But the situation is certainly nothing like the open hostility towards the Roma in Hungary. Canadian society would be appalled if we descended to that level.
Hey Joe! What ” open hostility toward Roma in Hungary”are you talking about?
Incidents,date,time, place, etc etc. please?
I live in a large town and I would say 40% of the people are Roma and 60% Hungarian.
There is no trouble at the moment and nor has there been. But, everybody is experiencing hardship because of the economic crisis.
A lot of Roma are poorly educated and live in dire poverty throughout Hungary. A lot of Hungarians also are in the same boat.
Roma wish to preserve their traditions and many do not wish to integrate.
We do not appreciate your off-the-cuff remarks – both unfounded and untrue that “open hostility” exists toward Roma.
And your comment about: “Canadian society would be appalled if we descended to that level”!
All I can say to that mate is, wherever your getting your information from – let us all in on the secret and we will check it out. Because it is so far from the truth as you are from Hungary.
@Tény
Many gypsies would be happy to get away from those racist Hungarians who do not like to be robbed and murdered by them and would just love to try their traditional skills in such open minded countries as Sweden and Canada where they are greeted with open arms, many benefits and instant integration. At least that is what these bozos would like us to believe. Canada and Sweden threw up roadblocks to the gypsies as soon as some of them went there asking for “political asylum”. Restriction on visas and such just to keep the beloved gypsies out
You correctly point out the not all communities are having problems with gypsy crime. It is because the Communist MSZP/SZDSZ has not been equally effective in turning the gypsies against Hungarians. When judges left over from the Rakosi/Kadar era let gypsies off with suspended sentence who murder Hungarians, it causes the Hungarians to fear and avoid gypsies.
Sweden threw up roadblocks to the gypsies as soon as some of them went there asking for “political asylum”
…
let gypsies off with suspended sentence who murder Hungarians, it causes the Hungarians to fear and avoid gypsies.
Mark at January 10, 2010 9:05 AM
—
Mark is bull-shitting as usual.
The Roma that fled Hungary 1-2 years ago and claimed “political asylum” got the same treatment as every one else doing that.
A barrack to live in, 3 meals per day and 7-10 Euro per day in pocket money.
And wait 1-3 years for a final personal decision.
As they came in groups and it was obviously organised, they got a preliminary ‘forehand-decision’ (Swedish term for non-binding legal opinion from the Civil Servants) that because they came from a fellow EU member state “political asylum” was hardly to be approved.
After a few weeks the main part of these Roma returned voluntarily back to Hungary.
-
Mark has posted this statement now several times “let gypsies off with suspended sentence who murder Hungarians”.
Maybe we should see some references to actual cases where this happened.
Checking the incidents the latest years, like Olaszliszka the sentences has been stronger at each level of trial, so any leaniency towards Roma is hard to find.
On the other hand, people of Mark’s kind, normally are for the introduction of the death penalty and stronger laws aimed towards ‘non-Hungarians’, which in their vocabulary means Roma.
Joe—Szallai Joe,still operating out of that municipal library that you work for? Toe rag hypocrite.
Gypsy mafia and organized crime flourish thanks to the continual failure of the MSZP government to
address the social and economical problems that Hungary now faces.
I don’t care which end of the political spectrum
you prefer to sit. It is the MSZP that govern and they are, and have been, a catastrophe for this nation over the past seven years.
Continue to beat the dog if you wish. But it is the
cat that got the cream and sneers at your failure to notice.
Gypsy mafia and organized crime flourish thanks to the continual failure of the MSZP government to
address the social and economical problems that Hungary now faces
Tény at January 10, 2010 5:45 PM
—
So how long time will Fidesz need to fix this?
It must just be a question of political will to fix all the problems and MSZP just did not wanted?
@Tény
The gypsies should work on their image with less stealing and murdering instead of complaining about people who do not like to be robbed or murdered.
You are right to blame MSZP for the out of control gypsy crime. There is every indication that instead of trying to stop it they encourage it. The judge giving a gypsy a suspended sentence for murdering a Hungarian must be the product of the rakosi/kadar legal system.
Better law enforcement with better use of funds to help gypsies earn a living instead of letting Kolompar steal it would go a long way. Most gypsies and all Hungarians would be happier with less gypsy crime and better allocation of social assistance.
They fuss about the proposal for social service cards for disbursing public assistance. The Communist media claims that it is discrimination but it is used America and India and it works. The cards would help put food in the gypsy children’s mouth instead the pockets of the gypsy mafia, drugs, booze and gambling.
There is every indication that instead of trying to stop it they encourage it. The judge giving a gypsy a suspended sentence for murdering a Hungarian
Mark at January 10, 2010 6:08 PM
—
Still no reference to real cases?
Just general statements as usual.
@Viking:
It’s no use trying to reason with Mark. Look at his last post:
“Most gypsies and all Hungarians would be happier with less gypsy crime …”
So obviously for him “Gypsies” are not “Hungarians” …
Wolfie,
Given the criteria to be accepted as a ‘Real Hungarian’ is that you never oppose Jobbik, then we have around 500.000 ‘Real Hungarians’ in the world.
That is how many that votes on them.
According to an interview on Duna TV Gábor Zázrivecz (aka known as ‘Vona’) claimed that they will be the most popular Hungarian party very soon.
On the other hand, they already have 100%, so?
@ Teny;
I agree with Joe in so much his comment about ” open hosility “towards a group of people” in Canada. I am not saying that Canadians are not prejudiced, just not “in your face” obvious about it. I personally feel that Canada is way more tolerent to different cultures etc then, lets say America, where you are expected to assimilate.
Canada is a country where people are free to pratice their religion, encouraged to preserve their culture and heritage. The only thing that is asked of you is to integrate into our society and not demand/expect Canadians integrate into yours.
Your comment about Roma wanting to preserve their culture, I have no issue with. However, I do have a problem with people that fail to integrate in to a society and EXPECT that society to pay for it as well.
Very difficult situation at the moment for everybody. So many businesses closing down in my town I can hardly keep count.
Thousands unemployed without a hope of getting a job in the foreseeable future.
Several burglaries near to me over the holiday – too close for comfort!
The polgarmester/local council system needs updating ..in fact a total overhaul as to financing,administration, etc.
I think Hungary has great potential but. and, oh my goodness, so many things to put right..where do we begin?
@ Justasking. I despise people like Joe for making
unfounded statements. Hungary is going through very difficult times and we do not need gratuitous and biased nonsense from idiots overseas.
@ Teny;
I agree with you about Hungary needing a major overhaul in every aspect of it. I just hope that the new Government coming in, does not get so overwhelmed with trying to fix everything all at once, that nothing gets done. You know that old saying ” How do you eat an Elephant?” ” One bite at a time”
If there was ever an opportunity, for Hungary to get down and pull together it’s now.
@justasking and all who care about the Hungarian people
I take it from your earlier comment that you will have no problem with this short Hungarian text:
„A kommunizmus megbukott mindenféle értelemben. De a kommunistáktól nehéz lesz megszabadulni, mert senki sem olyan konok és veszedelmes, mint egy bukott eszme haszonélvezője, aki már nem az eszmét védi, hanem mezítelen életét és a zsákmányt.” /Márai Sándor/
I found it at the bottom of a very good article. You may want to read it also:
Szárnyaszegett Magyarország
http://barikad.hu/node/44447
It is very difficult for people to “to get down and pull together” while their life is getting sucked out. The gypsy were not near the problem until the Communists (see Márai’s statement above) decided that it is to their advantage to encourage gypsy crime by downplaying it while blaming the Hungarians for protesting against it. They use it to distract people from the damage their criminal conduct is causing the people.
On the brighter side, it is possible for most Hungarians to pull together after the Communist bloodsuckers are cleaned out of office. While I support Jobbik, I believe that Fidesz will win the next election and at least stop the hemorrhaging and open thievery. You would have to read Magyar Hirlap and Magyar Nemzet to understand their destructive criminal activity and my bitterness. These are not Jobbik but Fidesz papers.
To reclaim what the Communists stole will require more and that is where Jobbik comes in.
The gypsy were not near the problem until the Communists (see Márai’s statement above) decided that it is to their advantage to encourage gypsy crime by downplaying it while blaming the Hungarians for protesting against it
Mark at January 11, 2010 9:19 AM
—
So Mark is using a general statement on how hard it will be to get rid of the Communists, written by an author who left Hungary 1948 and committed suicide in San Diego February 22, 1989.
The normal Jobbik-rhetoric is that ‘gypsy-crime’ started post-1990 and was a part of the ‘jewish/communist MSZP/SZDSZ-policy to suppress the Hungarian majority’-type of.
This excerpt from Sándor Károly Henrik Grosschmied de Mára does not concern the Roma-problem at all, so the connection is all in Mark’s head.
Actually Sándor Károly Henrik Grosschmied de Mára was known to expresses a nostalgia for the bygone multi-ethnic, multicultural society of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Not exactly what you would attach to the today’s kind of Jobbik.
-
When we are in to the Roma, we need to remeber their history also. WWII and the Soviet occupation stopped the nomad life-style of the Roma. They became cheap season low-skilled labour on the big collective farms. Out of season they had to fix what they could with music etc.
When I arrived 1st time in Hungary in June 1990 all restaurant were full of ‘Gypsy Orchestras’. Now you have to search for them. That was at least 10.000 musicians that probably supported 100.000 family members.
Today no work.
Hungarians have looked on from the sidelines and watched their country being ‘kicked into the gutter.’
Crime, education, tax reform, a overhaul of the justice system, and policing methods, local government issues, etc etc. In fact, just about everything that has been neglected by successive governments over the past twenty years, needs urgent attention.
Can anyone honestly say that they know what plans Fidesz has to address these problems when they are elected later this year?
Can anyone honestly say that they know what plans Fidesz has to address these problems when they are elected later this year?
Tény at January 11, 2010 11:11 AM
—
I cannot, but The good thing that *could* happen with Fidesz is that they would get enough big majority (does not need to be 67-76%) and are able to actually push through some reforms.
The problem here is that Fidesz has very much obstructed any type of reforms earlier and in their support for the referendum on health-care etc, given people/voters an idea that there exists money ‘out-there’.
‘Just vote for us and it will be OK again!’
Orban Viktor has in his more sane speeches always hinted that hard times will fall upon the people, ‘but the people must understand the measurements’.
The problem is though if the people do not want to understand these measurement and what-ever Parliamentarian opposition will exists from April 12 do not want to play ball and just keep polarising the country, well what will be the difference?
Why should the BKV/MAV and others stop striking just because Orban Viktor comes to power?
The big question is to reach some consensus among the voters what should be done, but no one wants to tell people what is needed.
Fighting the corruption and big (show-)trials will not change the economical fundamentals in Hungary. It is more window-dressing, even if it would be nice such.
How has the Zuschlag-trial changed Hungary’s economy?
Mark,
“The gypsy were not near the problem until the Communists (see Márai’s statement above) decided that it is to their advantage to encourage gypsy crime”
The “Communists” wouldn’t have needed to encourage “Gypsy crime”. The collapse in gypsy employment that followed the system change would have been sufficient to do the trick.
Male Roma Employment Rates
1971 M 85.2%
1978 M 77.3%
1987 M 74.4%
1993 M 28.8%
2003 M 22.6%
“Changing Roles”, TÁRKI(2006), pg 136
As for the link between unemployment and theft:
“low wages and unemployment make less-educated men more likely to turn to crime.”
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive//crimwage.htm
Locking up criminals reduces crime. There are those who claim that it costs too much to keep criminals locked up but they are wrong. The cost of criminals to law-abiding members of society is much higher, much more painful and much more devastating than the cost of keeping criminals incarcerated.
As a cost-control measure, prisons do not have to be luxury accommodations. Murderers, especially those who torture their victims, rapists, especially child rapists such as Polanski and drug dealers should be executed.
Let’s hear it from the criminals…
Murderers, especially those who torture their victims, rapists, especially child rapists such as Polanski and drug dealers should be executed.
Mark at January 11, 2010 12:46 PM
—
Yeah, yeah.
The normal BS from a Yankee, just kill them everyone.
WTF that 10-15 years later they were freed due to DNA etc was not OK?
No problem, 75-90% killed off by the State belongs anyway to some minority and they have always a higher birth-rate, so it is OK in the long run
-
Simple example:
Sweden’s biggest legal scandal is probably starting now. A Thomas Quick has been admitting 30 murders and been sentenced for 8 of them.
Now it is getting more and more clear that he was just, like Mark, BS-ing.
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Quick
-
The State Prosecutor that fixed the old convictions was also the State Spy Prosecutor, but he has retired now, so his old colleagues dare to question his conclusions. Just one example, from one of the murders that Quick was sentenced for (after telling he did it):
* The Police asked Quick 154 times which weapon he used to kill the victim. One time he answered right. After that no more questions were asked. Quick was given 153 times to get the answer ‘correct’.
–
One problem is of course that innocent people get convicted, but the biggest, mostly forgotten problem, is that the real criminal runs loose.
If the convict is executed no one will look for the real justice and how does the State compensate a wrong-full execution?
Mark,
“Locking up criminals reduces crime. There are those who claim that it costs too much to keep criminals locked up but they are wrong. The cost of criminals to law-abiding members of society is much higher, much more painful and much more devastating than the cost of keeping criminals incarcerated”
Any figures to support this reduction in crime,and cost benefit analysis?
As a teacher I heartily endorse capital punishment, killing all the lazy, slow kids would surely improve school performance.
Here we go again, taking it all out of context, the liberal closed minded criminal protectors, creating an environment where crime flourishes.
Simple questions:
- Are Roma Hungarians?
- Should Roma have the same rights to ‘Due Process’ as Hungarians?
—-
And where are those trials that have been so unfair to all non-Roma?
I think people start to think that they do not exists, then no one can show any.
If everyone is treated in the same way it can hardly create “an environment where crime flourishes”?
-
Or, has Roma some gene that makes them more disposed to certain criminal activities?
Is it not better then to incarcerate all Roma, just as a preventive measurement?
@Viking:
Didn’t you read Mark’s posting on Jan 10th, 6:08:
“Most gypsies and all Hungarians would be happier with less gypsy crime and better allocation of social assistance.”
So his viewpoint should be clear …
@ Wolfi;
Didn’t you read Teny posting from Jan 9 10:17 pm
” Roma wish to preserve their traditions and many do not with to integrate”
So if some do not want to integrate Bozo, how would you of had Mark write that sentence?
justasking,
Do you equate ‘Roma traditions’ with ‘gypsy-crime’?
If so, then Jobbik is wrong then they claim that it was basically no ‘Roma-problem’ and ‘gypsy-crime’ before 1990.
Jobbik claims that ‘gypsy-crime’ started after 1990 as part of this Governmental policy to silence ‘Hungarians’ (read non-Roma). It is also part of the Jewish-conspiracy, then the Jews want to create a Race-War between ‘Hungarians and Roma’, so the Jews can take over silently.
That is what Jobbik is claiming, it is up to every one to believe it or not.
A very long time ago, my parents sent me to relatives in the country because we did not have enough to eat. My aunt and I were walking home from a visit and as I was walking under the fruit trees, I picked up a plum without breaking my stride. Before I could put it in my mouth, my aunt grabbed my hand and told me not to steal. That was the only lesson I ever had about stealing and I will be forever grateful to her for it.
It did not matter that those fruits would probably rot because they already harvested the trees. The only thing that mattered that it was not mine to take. I believe that it is still the Hungarian culture in the villages and they do not steal even when hungry. You work your land and you expect to harvest the fruits of your hard labor, not some thief who could also work but prefers to steal what others produce.
Those who live by a different set of rules, such as steal what you can from the Hungarians and scream racism when they do not like it will never understand our culture and will never be accepted by our people.
they do not steal even when hungry
Mark at January 11, 2010 4:40 PM
—
I have met Hungarians who survived the fighting of WWII as children. They stole when they were enough hungry, because the alternative was starving, so jump off your ridiculous white horse and join the normal people.
Stealing is wrong, but sometimes in extreme situations it can be necessary.
This does not mean that any one defends stealing in situations when it was not necessary, but that is why we have laws.
So what is wrong to apply the laws we have equally on all people that commit crimes?
In my village/town of say ten thousand people- half are unemployed and a conservative estimate that a quarter are retired.
Many businesses have closed down with more
to follow.
The figures I quoted may not be exact but I’m sure you get the picture. Farming/agriculture seems in the doldrums too.
I spoke with the bank manager at the local branch and she said that there is money available from the EU to help businesses but the application process is long and involved. The result being that most of this money goes unclaimed.
We have a large Roma contingent in the village and they are caught in the trap of having little, or no education, and therefore less chance of employment.
It is a sorry state of affairs all round I’m afraid and I just do not know where the answers or help is going to come from to sort the problems out.
@ Viking;
I fail to see how Roma traditions can be confused with Gypsie crimes. Although I know shit about Roma traditions, more like Roma stereotyping ie: All Roma women are fortune tellers. A tradition, I would think, would be how musical some are/known for their music, known for their horsemanship/knowledge.
I have to admit, that when we would visit Hungary, say in the 70′s, we would be “encouraged” to watch our wallets/purses etc, when Roma’s were around. There is a difference between pick-pocketing and the now dramatic increase in violent crimes from some members of this community.
I have also noticed hostility both from Romas and Hungarians towards each other, that I have never seen before. Where there was a time, that I would just pull my purse all little closer to myself ( I know typical steroetype), now I will not even go to areas where there is a large population of Roma’s because truth be told, I’m scared.
So Viking, I have to admit, that I am a wee bit suspicious, that at the same time that Hungary is being sold down the river, that suddenly Hungarians and Romas can not stand the sight of each other. Things that make you go hmmmmm.
Justasking—-You hit the nail on the head! CUO BONO?
@ Ricsi;
Humour me…what the hell does CUO BONO mean?
@justasking:
Retarde Ricsi probably meant “cui bono” which is latin for ” good for whom ?” or “who profits from this ?”
BTW: you wrot
“@ Wolfi;
Didn’t you read Teny posting from Jan 9 10:17 pm
” Roma wish to preserve their traditions and many do not with to integrate”
So if some do not want to integrate Bozo, how would you of had Mark write that sentence?”
WTF did that mean ?
Just asking–It is Latin,it means ‘who stands to gain?’
Whenever a politician makes a big speech.or something hits the news big time,just ask the simple question’who stands to gain’, read behind the scenes for the truth.
I strongly recommend http://www.smockingmirrors.blogspot.com for true appraisal of todays events.
Take care Zsuzsa.
Justasking,
Cui bono? = To whose benefit?
“that at the same time that Hungary is being sold down the river, that suddenly Hungarians and Romas can not stand the sight of each other”
The MSZP has benefitted, to the extent that they benefitted from the privatisation process that came with the system change. The unemployment figures I gave earlier, show that gypsies as a group have disproportionate suffered unemployment as a result of privatised businesses laying off lots of unskilled workers.
Wolfi can not write coherently,he has hit the bottle again!
@ Wolfi;
I actually missread that comment from you, the one just about the one that you are quoting. I thought that you were trying to make a point on how Mark does not consider Romas Hungarian. Ooppss, my mistake.
I still think your a Bozo though. Hugs and kisses from Canada!
Sophist@You are so correct with your figures,but DO YOU KNOW WHY? Because under Communism/Kadár socialism they were forced to register for work and get the ‘work card’stamped before recieving any benefit-one of the few good points from the socialist era,I accept. Today they are free,no control,no register,and guess what? NO DESIRE TO WORK–end of lesson.
@ Ricsi;
Thanks for that. I thought when I first read COU BONO, “what does U2 have to do with this” Get it BONO and U2-Well, I laughed.
You take care too Ricsi.
Just asking-Actually you are very astute,Bono had his reasons and so do Dire Straits,look up the real meaning of the name!
Also what is a Rolling Stone? these guys might have been high but they were not crazy.
Ricsi,
Apart from your usual crass overgeneralisation about gypsies, I don’t disagree with you.
“Because under Communism/Kadár socialism they were forced to register for work and get the ‘work card’stamped before recieving any benefit”
Was this a policy that applied just to gypsies or all Hungarians?
My impression was that is was very difficult for anyone to be unemployed under Kádár Socialism. As I was jokily told when I first arrived, “Under Socialism everybody had a place of work, but not everybody had a job”. The system change exposed this lack of jobs, which is also relected in the mainstream population’s longer years of schooling and longer years of retirement. Same is true in all Capitalist economies.
@ Ricsi;
I always thought that “Rolling Stones” was a cool name for a rock band. Mind you, Mick Jager, is uglier than a mud fence!
My old Father-In-Law sometimes remember the ‘good’ work he had pre-1990, before he was retired.
* He never had a problem with tools at home, they just took what they needed.
-
* It did not matter how bad worker you were, they would never fire you, as long as you did not upset the party-boss. No problem if you drank or similar.
-
* The normal was to check-in in the morning.
Put your coat so every one could see it and go down to the city to do some private work, or just do nothing.
-
* It was obligatory to have a work-place, if you did not, the Police could arrest you for ‘asocial behaviour’. This was something dedicated to criminals and political dissidents, who could lose their work-place and get in a lot of troubles with the Police etc.
-
* Going too many workers on a work-place, without so much to do, did not create a lot of joy and interest in what they were doing, so most people saved it for the private work to build on the house etc
–
When I met my wife to be in early 1994, she had a bar. Not only frequented by me in the night, but by a lot of ‘Public Servants’ in the day-time. It was still going on until -96, then that type of guest disappeared mostly. Partly due to better work-moral, partly due to many had been sacked/moved to another area.
But she told me that she lived good on them and that they had their routes, then they could not sit too many hours in the same place, so they normally had a morning, lunch, afternoon and finally a place on the way home from work.
I may add about my Father-In-Law.
Nowadays, the last 10 years he has probably never worked so hard in is whole life.
It is funny to present him for the contractors we have temporary, then he is over 75 years and works better and harder than many building workers today.
But he wants to check what they are doing, he has a life-time experience not to trust his fellow workers.
The sense-morale of this story is that, even if people have grown up under other conditions, they can improve and work harder, if they have the correct incitement and will to do it.
I know it was hard in the 1990s for many Hungarians passed 35 to get a foreign-owned work-place, which was regarded as good, because of higher wages and actually wages.
Normally foreign companies at that time just wanted 20-25 year old guys, to avoid the need to ‘re-train’ them mentally not to run to the nearest cafe/bar and spend the work-day there.
Sophist: “Under Socialism everybody had a place of work, but not everybody had a job”.
This is close but no cigar. There are different versions and this is one:
“In Communism, everybody is employed. Although everybody is employed, nobody does anything”
The idea is that people had a job that paid very little while they managed to do as little as they could get away with.
The one I like: “They pretend to pay us, we pretend to work”.
Actually, the Hungarian workers worked very, very hard and for very little pay. Most jobs were such that you were paid according to what you produced. If you made the “norma”, you got a meager pay that was barely enough to feed yourself. When the Communists, the same Communists that still rule Hungary, wanted to squeeze more out of workers for less pay they would set it up that some guy would produce well over the “norma”, maybe 200%-300%. It was not a real performance because they gave him easy pieces and had others help him. They cheated.
At the next factory meeting, they would have someone stand up and say that it is not fair that the “norma” is as low because “Comrade Olga” can make 2-3 times the “norma” and others should work just as hard as “Comrade Olga”. They would raise the “norma” because “the workers demanded it” and everybody worked harder for less pay.
I feel like puking when I see Ildiko Lendvai, that disgusting Communist trash and the rest of bloodsuckers blame others for Hungary’s problems.
The ‘norma’ system Mark refers to I have worked under also during my first 10 years in the Swedish system, called ‘Ackord’.
It is built on Methods-Time-Measurement (MTM). The basic MTM data was developed by HB Maynard, JL Schwab and GJ Stegemerten of the Methods Engineering Council during a consultancy assignment at the Westinghouse Brake and Signal Corporation, USA in the 1940s.
As usual it comes from the US, Mark’s proud country.
That the ‘factory owners’ cheated with how the measurements were done, oh that we of course never heard of ‘in the West’.
Oh, no, in the West no one cheated. Every one was honest. Just look at the ‘multis’ in Hungary today.
-
The normal tactic in Sweden was to do some changes to the process (‘better pieces’-type, best machine, new strong guy who had been promised extra bonus if he reach the goal (he probably had a new baby)). Then run a couple of tests, skew the set-up to make it faster, and take the fastest ‘laps’ and make them the ‘day-norm’.
One of the most common strike reason locally in Sweden was always changes to the ‘Ackord’.
In Hungary it was not so easy to strike, but there was other ways to protest and ‘work slow’.
Most of the time there were logistics problems, so there was no material, sometimes the material was useless to work with, so in the end the basic salary was paid out anyway.
On the other hand, if we look from middle 60s the living standard had increased and people had money. 1945-55 was a hard financial time all over Europe.
Mark,
“This is close but no cigar”
Have you actually ever been inside a Hungarian factory? If so where, when and why?
@Sophist
Stop fishing. Go with your own imagination, fantasies and such and you will know as much about me as you need to know. It works just fine for some others who already know more about me then I know about myself
Hungarian industry/ipar? I didn’t know it existed.
Roads are repaired using dodgy materials. The workforce takes an eternity to do repairs that should/would normally be done in under a week.
Come and watch the boys from the local council do their stuff.
Ten of them turn up and spend at least two weeks doing a job that one man could do in a day.
Most of the time they stand around smoking, telling jokes, in between their two-hour lunch breaks.
A sorry-looking individual turned up to change my meter recently. After two weeks something went wrong. There was a loud explosion and I was without electricity for two weeks.
The only time you will see a policeman is when he has stopped you for some imaginary traffic offence and you have to hand over your ever-dwindling forint.
The list is endless. This is the real world.
Keep consulting your history books if you wish.
On the issue of Criminality and incarceration, here is a link to an article I put on my website called “Individuals and Institutions.” It focuses on a Western context, but in reference to Hungary, the points raised still have relevance. http://never-a-protege.webs.com/wearesocialanimals.htm#474523646
To show I’m not insensitive to the criticism of writing posts that are too long, I won’t post the whole thing…I will, however, put this quote in, which I think is particularly good.
“Regardless of one’s ethics, values, or political persuasion, if the ultimate goal is to reduce criminal behaviour, then the evidence thus far demonstrates that strategy should focus on neither punishment nor leniency, but on taking constructive action of specific kinds.” (McGuire, cited in Golden, 2002: p25)
To sum up briefly, harsher punishment on its own does not deter crime, but if anything, increases it in the longer term. It is more effective and cheaper to focus on education and training of at-risk individuals, both already in prison and in the community. This is not to say that we shouldn’t have prisons, so don’t go there, just that locking everyone up ultimately ‘enrolls’ petty criminals in ‘crime school’ so they come out as potentially worse offenders.
@ Cinaed
No one could argue with the sentence: “It is more effective and cheaper to focus on education and training of at-risk individuals, both already in prison and in the community.”
Problem is that in times of high unemployment, employers are not in a huge rush to hire people with a criminal record ( I assume that all countries have the a question on the “Application for Employment” re having a record)
So even if the person has some education and training, if s/he can’t get a job, there is a very high rate of recidivism.
As far as Hungary goes, I can’t help but wonder how many people would hire a Roma without a criminal record if an unemployed Hungarian (no criminal record) was available.
Education and training are vital if Hungary and Hungarians are to succeed.
It is not just the employers we need to charge with delivering the training. We need a whole host of different organizations to participate.
Government, local authorities, schools, colleges,
banks, business, etc. etc.
It is necessary to first draw up a plan, cost it, and work out how that plan can be put into effect.
It is distressing in my village to see so many people out of work and a huge number of small businesses (shops etc) closing down because of the downturn in the economy.
The situation is now very urgent and we need inspiration from somewhere?
Kovács,
“It is not just the employers we need to charge with delivering the training.”
As a teacher I have a vested interest in supporting this idea, but my experience leads to beleive otherwise. I teach in Szakközépiskola and I doubt if more than 20% of my students actually benefit cognitively from spending years sitting in classrooms, though nearly all of them will go to four more years of classrooom based instruction at college level. I think a strong apprenticeship system would be much more beneficial to Hungary (and other countries) long term success.
I think companies and parents have both too keen to dump the expenses of education on the state. Within global markets of course this problem is exaccerbated, multinational companies are free to move production to the location where the requisite skills are most cheaply available.
How much will I be charged over the following months if I decide to keep using it?
I took my first loans when I was 32 and this supported my relatives a lot. But, I require the commercial loan over again.
I get know that it’s more simple to order the thesis abstract or thesis referring to this post, than to complete by personal efforts.