Jobbik MEPs to fight for pre-Trianon borders

So you’re saying that countries who received undeserved gifts from the Trianon Treaty are doing better than Hungary who lost most of its own territory. Are you stupid or something?

This is a pipe-dream. While the Trianon treaty was/is one of the worst injustices perpetrated on a country in modern history, there is absolutely no chance that any other European state, not to mention the EU, will revisit a 90 year old treaty, and forget about readjusting borders. Only within Hungary does anyone even care about this anymore. I personally think it is a shame, but it is a fact. Of course MEP’s don’t actually have anything to do with real political issues, so maybe at least this will keep them busy. The only possibility for success might be in the Vojvodina, since it seems every other ethnic enclave in the former Yugoslavia has been able to get some autonomy, if not outright independence. However, since Serbia is not a member state of the EU, there seems little hope of working through the EU to achieve this. Also, there is the problem that Hungarians can not be considered a Muslim people, so no one gives a rat’s tail about them.

Honestly, 90 years after and the Hungarians still cannot get over the Trianon Treaty. This is pretty much ridiculous and it says so much about Hungarians’ lack of perspective over history. @Fabian: you say the Serbian Hungarians, the Transylvanian Hungarians, and the Ukrainian Hungarians would hasted to embrace the old borders. But you (and all Trianon treaty soft talkers) forget the minor detail that these ‘Hungarians’ represent only a small fraction of the former Hungarian territories’ population, times and history changed a lot ‘out there’. The rest of Serbians, Transylvanians or Ukrainians or Slovaks may not be so thrilled of joining the country with the highest taxes in Central Eastern Europe, to name but one of its main flaws – leaving aside the fact that those people have no reason whatsoever to want this join taking place. Hungary would find itself with millions of disgruntled ‘minority’ populations. What would be next? Magyar Garda helping to exterminate/ethnic cleanse them? So get real people, find some real goals to set in politics. The pre-Trianon borders are no longer interesting even in terms of intellectual argumentation – everything has been said already over and over again within the past 90 years, I doubt anything original is still there to be said. No, actually I have something to say: it only would have taken Hungary to win the WWI. Even so, the borders couls still have been modified after the WWII. So there it is: You lost, game over, live with it.

rumburak, you’re an idiot.
Hungarians spent a thousand years building and defending a country, and lost most of it to an insane “treaty”. Revisions are happening all over the world, borders are changing. Germans got their lost eastern part back, the Soviet Union was created and broken apart, same with Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia. Not to mention Israel, based on a 2,000 year old claim. If it takes 2,000 years to get our territories back, so be it, I have plenty of time. If Moldova can be independent, so can Transylvania, Romania has no rights to hang onto it.
90 years is nothing in European history. We had WWI and the depression, then WWII, then the cold war, and finally the fall of the Soviet Union and the creation of its successor, the EU. As you see, we were busy, never really had the time for an unbiased examination of the so-called treaty.
If Jews are entitled to receive reparations more than half a century after the war, it means the statute of limitations can be interpreted and mistakes corrected long after the damage was done.
Hungary needs to get rid of the traitors who run the country now, find decent folks to replace them and work up some strength to have a voice.
It ain’t over till the fat lady sings “let it be”.

In no way would I endorse any persecution of Hungarian-Romanians, Hungarian-Slovaks etc etc. Should that be happening then this is truly a worthy cause for Jobbik to petition the EU about.
The over-simplification of re-drawing lines on a map based on pre-Trianon borders does nothing to add weight to the argument that this should happen.
The first question I would ask would be why those Hungarian communities in, for example, Transilvania, would be any better off if their land was part of Hungary. It makes no sense. They would inevitably pay more tax for one. Yet their sense of identity is very strong so what is it about a line on a map that makes any difference to this?
All that shuffling lines on maps does is cause further unrest for some aspiring politcal group. For the most part, unless as I mentioned above there is persecution of individuals, it makes no difference at all to one’s identity. In-fact it can actually be beneficial to the individuals if they end up being part of a more prosperous and better run country.

This is something that a reasonable proportion of Hungarians feel strongly about, so why not have the issue raised at a political level? There is nothing wrong with debating history. In any case, it is unlikely to make any difference, and will keep Jobbik busy for a few generations…

Some rough estimates:
Current Hungary population: 10 million
Assume that these are entirely Hungarians for the purposes of a rough calculation.
Add the population of:
a. Slovakia (Felvidek if you prefer): 5.3 million: 10% Hungarian;
b. Transylvania (Erdely): 7.2 million: 20% Hungarian;
c. Croatia: 4.5 million: less than 1% Hungarian.
This would give us a Hungary with a population of 27 million, but demographically they would be 11.97 million Hungarian and 15.03 million other ethnicities.
This rough calculation does not include Subcarpathia, Burgenland and Hungarian Slovenia.
Hungarians are already only 44% of this estimate, this would slip even further if the other territories were included.
If some Jobbik types feel that they are under a Palestinian type occupation now, just think of how they would feel if they got their way on this one.

It would indeed be remiss of Jobbik to neglect to raise Hungary’s Trianon issues in the EP. Remember that the UN is still to pronounce upon Kosovo independence (which independence Russia is set to oppose). The pertinent UN deliberation, whenever it happens, will be lively, and it must touch upon the right to self-determination of the Serbian populations of Kosovo. In that ‘right to self-determination after border change’ spectrum, the status of the Hungarian populations outside the post-Trianon Hungarian border looms large. Now, the UN will, as it always does, invite ‘advisory opinions’ from all over the place, including, of course, the EU’s. Raising the Trianon issues in the EP now, Jobbik is ensuring that: (i) the EU constructs an opinion on the subject, and (ii) that opinion takes account of the right to self-determination of Hungarians in the territories severed from Hungary by the Treaty of Trianon. Dr Morvai’s sound grasp of international law will pull the right international-law strings here. Also, support for the right to self-determination principle is not limited to the so-called ‘far right’ block in the EP. The better view is that this principle will attract a very broad basis of support there. This is the best thing yet to happen in the ‘justice for Hungarians’ cause. Thank you, Jobbik.

Morvai’s “strong grasp of international law” will unfortunately inform her that a country which signs a treaty (such as for example Hungary as signatory to the Treaty of Trianon in 1920) is stuck with the Treaty. Reopening the Trianon borders is a non-starter.
The rights of Hungarian minorities in neighbouring countries, especially previously Hungarian regions, is something which is negotiable, but who would promise their neighbour anything if the neighbour is making irredentist claims?

JD,
Of course you don’t get it. You’re not Hungarian, and never will become one.

@godot: if you have to be Hungarian to “get it”, then what’s the point of taking the matter to the EU?

Aldamir has it. The pre Trianon borders were never a true Magyar nation but a Magyar empire of many nationalities which Hungary lost by being on the wrong side in two world wars.
Are the Magyars still searching for others to blame for their economic failings? The Gypsies, the Jews & now it is because the Magyar nation is the wrong size!
Although they have their own right wing nutters, I haven’t heard Austrians asking for the return of the Hapsburg Empire (including Hungary) – maybe it is because they have a successful country & are not needing to find excuses for their failure.
Hungary is beautiful & the majority are warm hearted kind people. Why do they allow themselves to be wound up by right wing Trianon dreamers. The glory they dream of never existed & people would be better off working together for their successful futures!

Sophie, I am not sure anyone is denigrating anything here.
Most people would like to know what difference it would actually make even if it was all set back to pre-Trianon.
In terms of the benefit it would actually bring Hungary, Hungarians and those on the other side of the border, its seems fairly abstract.

Well done Jobbik, this is a step in educating the EU of the truth about Trianon.

Aldamir, the pacta sunt servada (literally, ‘the agreement must be kept’) principle in international law is this: treaties are ‘what the authors wanted them to be and only what they wanted them to be and because they wanted them to be the way they are’ (see Paul Reuter). I.e. this principle is the basis of international contract law. The Preamable to the Vienna Convention that invokes this principle is consistent with Reuter’s illumination: ‘Noting that the principles of free consent and of good faith and the pacta sunt servanda rule are universally recognized’. So, puncta sunt servada if and only if the contract emanates from free consent and good faith. (Or, if you like, ‘you’re stuck with the treaty to which you became party freely and in good faith’.)
You seem to have missed Article 3 of the Vienna Convention: ‘The fact that the present Convention does not apply to international agreements concluded between States …shall not affect … (b) the application to them of any of the rules set forth in the present Convention to which they would be subject under international law independently of the Convention.’ I.e. the Vienna Convention recognizes, inter alia, the pacta sunt servada principle.
Article 4, on which you appear to be relying, does no more than declare that the Vienna Convention’s rules of treaty-making do not ipso facto deny the validity of treaties formed before its inception. That Convention outlines the basis of the validity only of treaties formed after its inception.
Hungary certainly has a lot of scope for challenging the Treaty of Trianon on the pacta sunt servada obligation, because it did not accede to that treaty freely.

You’d like that, vdx? Abbot viszont nem harapsz.

Ricsi,
speaking from experience? Well don’t worry, I don’t have stomach to argue with you either. You think your’re observing? Indeed, you don’t have to say a word, your actions speak for themselves.

I’d be interested in how much this will cost HU to absorb all of the people who are not ethnic Hungarians now living in those lands? Given how poor things are at the moment, will Jobbik be raising taxes to cover all the cultural upheavel? If such leads to resistance movements, will they have a solution to assuage those people who actually like living in their countries? Will there be some sort of tax / cost compensation scheme. Perhaps HU television will have to start broadcasting in multiple languages … will they be able to get interpreters.
Sounds like an ill-conceived policy; disappointing from a party that just picked up several seats. Was this one of their election planks?

Funny topic this one. It does feel like a historic injustice in many respects but the future lies elsewhere. I can just speak for Transylvania, which I do think is the biggest issue for Hungarians when it comes to claims about revision of the Treaty of Trianon. On the one hand it is difficult to accept to lose what is undoubtedly one of the most spectacularly beautiful and scenic places of Europe, and which throughout eventful times has remained a bastion for a free Hungary for so long with plenty cultural monuments such as Reformist churches and castles of erstwhile Hunagrian noble families. I suspect that many of you have not been there, or have followed the last 50 years in the region, or you would notice that for Hungarians the cultural oppression leading to numerous castles in ruin, the continued and ongoing construction of Orthodox churches throughout Transylvania on the most prominent places (main square of Marosvasarhely etc.) as the Romaina state continues to open one new church on average every three days (with your EU funded money at the end of the day) is tough to swallow. In Kolozsvar there is even a sign on the birthplace of Mathias Corvinus that “The Romanian King Matei Corvin, biggest king of Hungarians was born here”. All of you who complain about Hungary, go to Transylvania for three or four days on a road trip, if you cross the border on your way back you will fee you are in Switzerland…(Eastern Hungary, that is). At the end of the day however, Ceaucescu

Well said Balint, it would be interesting to know how many posters here have been to Transylvania, while claiming to know what is best for it…

It happens that I am from Transylvania, and not Hungarian. While I still maintain my claim that longing for the pre-Trianon borders 90 years after is pretty pathetic, I want to point out something else, which the Great Hungarians always hasten to overlook. Namely, pre-1918, the borders of the Big Hungary were a bit far fetched already. There were plenty of minorities within, and it’s kind of surprising that ALL the neighbouring countries entered the WWI with the precise goal of obtaining independence for the parts of Hungary that were populated by Czechs, Slovaks, Serbs, Romanians, etc. Explain this, if the country was so compactly Hungarian. Therefore, the idea of Hungarian “ownership” over these teritories is highly debatable. Coming back to the present, I have one more comment: Romanians (just as Hungarians, for that matter) are taught in history classes about the continuity of their existence on the Transylvanian territory. Sadly, neither Hungarian or Romanian historians could come with the ultimate proof of this continuity. So, assuming the borders were shifted and Transylvania would become part of Hungary, it would be hard to convince the majority of Romanian population there of the justice of the new borders. But allas, this will never happen, and as was said before, the answer is in regionalism and I may say, tolerance. Crying over spilled milk (lost borders) is going nowhere. Just get over it, like Alsacians did, and find solutions in line with the times we live in.

HAHAHAHHAHA!!! This news were the best joke of thee day!

It seems that this whole thing is an attempt to step back into the past and will do nothing but stir up potential wars. What a great thing to do …….. not!
Hopefully the EU will want to look forward and not backwards.

It’s learning from the past and healing what was created by the Corrupt Liars from the past.. not revenge just the plain truth of the matter, again and again like an old record until it’s fixed it wont go away.. Time to fix and repair the damage from the past.

Sparking a fire of confrontation has often been an accompanying sign of poor economic development. This time it’s not different although in the case of Hungary it’s additionally accompanied by self-centered and rather limited outlook of hungarian society.
Now, a significant part of this society was tear down by cheap words and empty promises, but the real question is, what will be the decision of those who really are in power. Because with the power comes resposibility, Fidesz should proceed very carefully and stand out very clearly from those who bring nothing but a disgrace and a loss of confidence in the international society. Full scale extremism will rather lead to an isolation then to anything else what these mistaken Hungarians hope for. And the isolation is the last thing Hungary needs right now. Time for mass manipulation is over, time for pragmatism has come and if Orban has at least a tiny piece of common sense, he shall use it now.

International society? ))))
What a bunch of bull, if you catch my drift partner. No better forum exists than the EU parliament to bug them every friggin day with our grievances.
International society, tell me did you actually just crawl out from under a rock or are you really this dumb?

beju,
“the reason the treaty of Trianon stood the test of time, is only due to 60 years of communism”
Bad excuse, then you had 20 years between 1919-1939, to fix the problem. And fixed it you did and lost another war, with its Benes-decrees that your friend is crying about in another thread.
How about to be on the winning side in the next war, just to test the experience. Maybe you will like it?

Viking,
Trianon was a result of the 1919 “rat revolution” by Bela Kun his associates, who were by the way all Jewish. Without this episode subsequent to WW1, no foreign armies would have been allowed into the territory of the Kingdom of Hungary. The foreign powers utilized the chaos created by Karolyi to reward their allies in the region, because they wouldn’t care less for our country represented by a bolshevik jewish team of brigands.
All the better and easier. Not to say, that our current aristocracy shared no blame in the outcome and forthcomings.
Between the wars Horthy did his best under the circumstances, but he at least made public this hypocrasy and outcry and did find supporters to trying to fix it with the Allied establishment of the time, Lord Rothermere of England etc..to no avail at the time. This time around, a real opportunity presents itself to rub it in every day before the European media (which can’t silence it anymore, and reluctantly though but have to report on it) to address our grievances.
Every nation worthy of itself does the same. Why do you ask me for being a proponent of it? Are you a Jew?

beju,
it’s wasn’t an opinion, it was the advice. Post it farther if you want.

Dear vdx
Advice? To whom, to me?
I never realized this was an advocacy board in your book. Sorry.
It doesn’t change however one bit about my opinion, that the treaty as is, belongs to the dumpsters of history whether you confess it to yourself or not. And maybe you might heed to advices that promote national interests above all and not apologizing for anything your opponents/enemies emphasize on your account for their benefit. It’s called politics.

@beju. Check on your anti-semitic point. Aside from not knowing what being jewish has to do with Trianon, Kun’s mom was a Proti, his dad a lapsed Jew.

Even so, if you’re going to through religion into it, then let’s put it to the Catholics who are currently coming up with all sorts of crazy taxes and bureacracy that didn’t exist 90 years ago. Oh, don’t tell me, Gyurcsany, Orban, Bajnai etc are all actually jews, they’re just pretending not to be.

The point of the thread is about Trianon, whether its a worthwhile topic to bring up, if so, what’s the cost, impact, what does it actually solve. There are some fantastic ideas thrown out here: that the treaty gave independence to a host of others (not just HUs) that had wanted self-determination; that the borders are arbitrary; that 90 years has past; that one is harping on about land they don’t even live on (and don’t own); that in any solution there’ll be losers that won’t be satisfied.

If you’re such a good christian, turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor? Or are you Islamic baby bomber?

Beju, you are absolutely right: ‘This time around, a real opportunity presents itself to rub it in every day before the European media…’. Jobbik has put Hungary, for the first time since Trianon, into a forum with enough international clout to make a legal issue of the bitter consequences for Hungarians of Trianon. This achievement of Jobbik’s is truly stupendous. That is why Hungary haters (this thread is stacked to the gunwales with them!) are spitting venom. The present Lord Rothemere will certainly take up the cudgels of his illustrious forebear to give Jobbik’s position rigorous endorsement. The beauty is that the Trianon issue now fits in with all the PC positions: right to self-determination, international contract law, etc. So even the vast jewish media will find it difficult to downplay Hungarian efforts towards redress.

@Sophie: Yes, Harold Sidney Harmsworth’s (1st Viscount Rothermere) article in the Daily Mail almost 82 years ago (21 June 1927) was greatly welcomed by the Hungarian people. Over one million Hungarians signed a petition of support for Rothermere and the article (“Hungary’s Place in the Sun”) and he was even offered the Hungarian crown at one point, in thanks.
There’s even a lasting monument to him and Trianon in its (rebuilt) original form near the Szabó Ervin Library, at the meeting of Baross and Reviczky street. I think there are very few Trianon monuments now left in any form in Budapest and this has probably survived because it is, unlike the Turul statue, tasteful.
But, Rothermere wasn’t for the return of the original borders in any way. He merely wanted the areas with an ethnic majority of Hungarians to be redrawn along those lines. His underlying principles was that the majority status in these disenfranchised communities was the basis for future potential conflict.
Such majorities of Hungarians in those regions, do not now exist, so the reasoning would be that the basis of the borders to even be redrawn has also gone.
For a general discussion of Rothermere’s article try: http://www.ssees.ac.uk/confhung/romsics.pdf

“Jobbik can aim for an EC Directive for a referendum in the relevant areas that will decide to which state’s jurisdiction those populations want to attach.”
Well I’ve got to agree Sophie that would be very interesting. Might just make the whole Trianon crocodile tears stop once and for all.
Of course, according to you, if they voted to stay under Romanian jurisdiction (and I assume taxes) that vote would have been rigged or perhaps a hoax or maybe even the fault of the Jews?

Jobbik cracks me up. Looks like they haven’t learned from neighbouring countries like Serbia, when it comes to historical revisionism. Don’t get me wrong I’m against Trianon, but nowadays if you try to reclaim former lands, you get shafted – take a look at Serbia if you need an example. They pissed off so many people, that their own kin the Montenegrins don’t even want to live in the same country as them! Now Serbia is reduced to Belgrade and Vojvodina, and soon enough it’ll probably cease to exist. Whatever Jobbik is doing, it only gives more reason for the rest of our neighbours to laugh at us and take out the ol’ pumpkin carving knife. Ridiculous.

In Romania the passion for map-drawing of Jobbik is
shared by the increasingly popular neo-fascist party
“Noua Dreapta” (which is in fact not ‘neo’ but the
quite old, 1930s, Iron Guard-Legionary Movement).
The Legionary also want to re-draw the current maps
but they think that the western borders of the
ancient Dacia were on the Tisa, therefore….
With this mind it will be interesting to see how
they will get along with Jobbik in the EU parliament
despite their common passion for fascism and ethno-
geography.

beju,
Having spoken with one of the remaining Habsburger, that could maybe claim the throne, I can re-assure you they are not interested.
It seems you guys have to clean up this mess yourself.
Of course without you because you are not even in Hungary, so please let us do it who actually live here and concentrate yourself on MediCare or something more interesting locally.

Jobbik want to fight to regain lost land.
They had better come up with something better than
this in their election campaign if they want people to take them seriously.
I wanted to hear from a party with a new perspective away from the old commie regime, MSZP etc. But it seems Jobbik are hellbent on appealing to the “hard-of-thinking” with this latest pre-Trianon rubbish.
It once again reflects the standard of politicians in Hungary. Not one of them have got a fucking clue.
..whether they represent Fidesz, Jobbik, MSZP,
SZDSZ, MDF, etc.
Bad news for Hungarians I’m afraid.

After French shameful defeats in Sedan on 1870, on 1914 and 1940, France is doing whatever it takes to kip down Germany and Austria-Hungary. Since then, France, in a fierce ‘struggle for existence, is denying the right of Germans, Austrian, Hungarian, Croatian, Bosnian, and Bulgarian to exist. French are enough ignorant not to understand that:
The red army, with 360 divisions, equipped with prestigious artillery, supported by armor, and decent air force, would invade them and stop at the Biscay Bay. They ignore the Anglo Americans efforts and ultimate sacrifices to save them. What goes around comes around. One day they will get what are looking for, but this day will be the last day of Europe too.

After French shameful defeats, in Sedan on 1870, on 1914 and 1940, France is doing whatever it takes to kip down Germany and Austria-Hungary. Since then, France, in a fierce struggle for existence, is denying the right of Germans, Austrian, Hungarian, Croatian, Bosnian, and Bulgarian to exist. The Trianon treaty turned the nationalities of Eastern Europe, who had always lived in coexistence, into sworn enemies.
French are enough ignorant not to understand that:
The Red Army, with 360 divisions, equipped with prestigious artillery, supported by armor, and decent air force, would invade them and stop at the Biscay Bay. They ignore the Anglo Americans efforts, and their ultimate sacrifices to save them. What goes around comes around. One day they will get what are looking for, but this day will be the last day of Europe too.

@wolfi: you can keep up with them through the EU parliament website. Morvai’s page is http://www.europarl.europa.eu/members/expert/committees/view.do?language=EN&id=96661 she also has the http://www.morvaikrisztina.hu But don’t forget, she isn’t actually a member of Jobbik. Her last contribution, I think, was this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmc7Ha9DSRg

continued:
Did the MEPS hear yet about “Trianon” and that Hungary (or at least some of the really crazy people here) wants to turn back the clock 90 years – and was there any reaction to this ?
I haven’t heard or read about Trianon any where in the last 50 years except in those Jobbik statements.
Exactly as you don’t ead about “Versailles” anymore in the German news, because nobody is interested anymore…

It is really eye opening to note that a progressive U. S. President was partly responsible for the carving up of a nation, (ie people) who did not even start the war? Was Germany carved up after WWII? Who was the US president none other then another progressive.
Just think how wonderful it would be if the US lost CA, AZ, NV, NM,TX, FL. Lets just pretend those lands were given by Trianon to lets say Mexico. Now those people became Mexican citizens. They would have to speak Spanish in school, at work, at church, and also Spanish would be the language that all governmental (laws, ordinances, driver licenses, marriage licenses etc had to be conducted in. Wow how much fun would that be? How can you even wait for it to happen? Let it happen now. Well that is what happened after Trianon. Hungary paid for every ones sins. Wilson is dead time for a do over now. Hungarian families must be joined together now. Death to TRIANON.

@Viking;
Should it matter if they are interested or not? How much interest did Hungary have in creating these countries?

@ Pete;
I suggest that you read “Paris 1919-Six Months That Changed The World” by Margaret MacMillian

@ Viking;
I have never skirted around the issue on my opinion of reversing Trianon. Although I would love to see it happen, I doubt it ever will.
I tell you what I would like to see though, I would like to see the Hungarian minority is these countries status raised to that similar to what we have in Canada with the French Canadians.
Recognition of their history, culture and language and protection of it.

@ Viking;
Uh, Uh, Uh!!
We are not suppose to agree on anything, now stop it!

These guys from Jobbik are a joke. I’m wondering
if any of them asked the neighboring countries if
they would agree some of their proposals. Also,
they should take in consideration the fact that
Hungarian ethnics do represent a minority in all
of the neighboring countries. Did they ask the
majorities what they want (Romanians, Slovaks,
Serbians, Ukrainians, Austrians)? Should I mention
that with all of these countries Hungary is having
signed treaties?
These guys are just extremists that wants to get
into power not for the Hungarian nation good but
for their personal good.
Instead of looking to draw new borders they will
better look into the future of Europe with no
borders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNnqjbojqjE