“The Magyar Gárda and the National Defence Army will hold patrols and stage demonstrations to help the police until the gendarmerie is formed,” Jobbik deputy chairman Csaba Gyüre and spokesman of the self-styled National Defence Army László Bodrog told a joint press briefing in Nyíregyháza on Tuesday.
The pair also announced that Jobbik, the Defence Army and the Magyar Gárda will stage a demonstration in Pusztadobos, north east Hungary.
Bodrog said the groups “want to increase public safety, because while police are put under political pressure and direct control, they cannot do their jobs, for fear of being labelled racist. Legislation is needed to draw public attention to the current state of affairs,” Bodrog argued.
So the Police “cannot do their jobs, for fear of being labelled racist”, but “the gendarmerie” will be able to do that?
So, were not the Gendarmerie, that Jobbik proposes, not work under the same laws that govern the Police work?
If the Police, as Jobbik claims, “are put under political pressure and direct control”, will this not change under a new Government, or is it alwazs like this, and the Gendarmerie is needed as ‘an independent’ force? Who will control the ‘independent’?
The picture of the proposed Gendarmerie is getting more and more blurred, now they are not even to do normal police-work, so what should they do?
The gendarmerie, per se, is a military unit. Does that answer dumb questions about who will control the yet-to-be-formed Hungarian Gendarmerie? Well done, Gárda and the National Defence Army, for holding the fort in the interim. And well done, Jobbik! You are the progenitor of all the good things that are happening in Hungary today.
Sophie,
“The gendarmerie, per se, is a military unit”
Good, so it will *not* perform normal police duties then on the Hungarian country-side?
It will be Marshal Law proclaimed on the Hungarian country-side, then that would be the only legal reason to let soldiers uphold order in an area?
The quote from the article clearly states that the current laws that regulate Police work should not be valid for the Gendarmerie, which would then not be in line with other European countries that you like to refer to. The French Gendarmerie and the Italian Caribinaries have to follow the same laws that regulate the normal Police.
In Hungary today the only soldiers who are available are NATO-soldiers, so Jobbik’s demand is then to move the Hungarian Army from Afghanistan to Ozd? So why not say that then?
Can facist Sophie be for real or is she a freak created by outsiders to discredit the people of Hungary?
Get yourself a dictionary, for goodness’ sakes, Viking. The gendarmerie is the gendarmerie because it is a military unit with civilian policing duties.
What ever idea of the “Magyar Gárda and the National Defence Army” is it is wrong! Why do you need this? Dose Hungary future will be better after this idea? Do you think that it will better then it is now? Personaly I think that you may call Russian’s to come back maybe this will be better option! Did you forget that time under Russian regime.
So you don’t know what ‘the idea’ is, but you do know that it is wrong! Congratulations.
Only by reading there names “Magyar Gárda and the National Defence Army” you know that this is wrong. We know the idea and this is why I am saying it is wrong!
Sophie,
“The gendarmerie is the gendarmerie because it is a military unit with civilian policing duties”
I do not a dictionary to know that. What you and your Jobbik-friends need I do not knwo, because Bodrog said “police are put under political pressure and direct control, they cannot do their jobs, for fear of being labelled racist”, but the Gendarmerie would, right?
So, why then not answer the simple questions, why *any* Gendarmerie would be better than normal Police, if both need to work under the same laws and regulations. The Genarmerie cannot do anything the Police cannot do, so what is the reason for the need?
Still no one has been able to answer these very simple questions, why?
Viking, the traditional Hungarian gendarmerie was mandated to maintain law and order in the provinces. As a military unit, it was immune to interference by politicians. It was subject only to its own chain of command. The present-day good of the gendarmerie is in that it would assume responsibility for law and order in the severely under-policed provincial areas of Hungary. Its performance would be directed by the military chain of command, not by the politically-appointed head of the civilian police force. Its independence of political influence guarantees its disciplined performance of its duties. (Note that the gendarmerie is a highly valued institution in the French system of law and order.)
Sophie,
“Its performance would be directed by the military chain of command, not by the politically-appointed head of the civilian police force”
Who chooses the Military Top Dog?
You think that is done by the Military itself?
Where are you living and for how long?
All high Military positions are appointed by the politicians, normally the Government. The Military does not elects themselves, except in a Military Dictatorship.
So, still back to the original question – What would differ if both units would have to follow the same laws and procedures, which Bodrog seem to claim in the article above the Gendarmerie does not need to do.
I do not think anyone will dispute your claim that “the severely under-policed provincial areas of Hungary” needs more policing. So, one more time, *why* is Jobbik against to have more normal Police Officers in the country-side?
If now the Gendarmerie is so good, why cannot we have it in the cities, why is the Gendarmerie only better in the country-side?
Your latest display of severe ignorance, Viking: ‘All high Military positions are appointed by the politicians, normally the Government’. You really should obtain some basic education. Find out, to start with, what the ‘separation of powers’ means in a democracy. Then proceed to read up on how the military fits into this scheme. Maintain silence in the meantime.
I don’t know why anyone is concerned about these people. Just a few hundred social misfits playing at being Nazis.
Sophie,
Je crois que je suis amoureux de toi et surtout de tes commentaires! Merci!
Je t’aime aussi, Marc!
Dear Sophie,
Try reading the Hungarian Constitution, here in English translation published by the Hungarian Constitutional Court:
Article 40/B
‘(3) Within the framework of the Constitution, only Parliament, the President of the Republic, the National Defense Council, the Government and the responsible Minister shall have the right to command the armed forces, unless otherwise provided by international treaties’.
The interesting part is of course ‘shall have the right to command the armed forces’. This means the Military has to follow the Politicians in the same way as the Police.
The quotation is from ‘http://www.mkab.hu/en/enpage5.htm‘
Maybe you should read up on Carl Philipp Gottlieb von Clausewitz’s Vom Kriege also?
Sophie – that’s just silly. Do YOU know anything
about how the upper command in the army works?
Once a person reaches the rank of general (any
general rank) it’s all politics. Really, this
starts at Colonel but a few can make it that far
and not play politics. After that, it’s political
- in most countries, nominations for these ranks
goes to whoever the head of state is – for
Hungary, that’s the President (U.S. as well -
Britain’s system, as you should know, is for the
nomination to be sent to the Prime Minister, who
presents it to the Queen).
So, any organization funded by the government
(like, you know, the military) will have its head
people chosen (appointed) by the government. Sorry
Sophie, I don’t know what beautiful dream you (and
Jobbik) have, but it doesn’t exist. Not anywhere
(except totalitarian states where the military IS
the government – then it’s different, for sure).
You have, not surprisingly, misread Article 43B: ‘… the command of the armed forces is the exclusive province of Parliament, of the President of the Republic, the National Defence Council, the Government and the competent minister as laid down in the Constitution’. This does not mean that ‘the Military has to follow the Politicians in the same way as the Police’. Rather, it enumerates the constitutionally erected bodies that jointly command the army. Nowhere in the Constitution will you find support for your earlier wild claim that the Government appoints the military hierarchy.
Concerned Citizen, you are a pretty uniformed citizen. In Britain, the nominations that are sent to the Queen are for the appointment of Advocates General. Advocates General preside over military courts. An advocate general is always a civilian. An ‘Advocate General’ is not a general of the army. There is no scope for direct political interference, (not in Hungary, not in Britain, and not in the US) with military rank.
Sophie,
1stly, can you give the link for your version of the Hungarian Constitution. It is obviously not the same as published by the Hungarian Constitutional Court
—————–
2ndly, do you really mean that Military in Europe can act without political consequences or responsibility?
- Why is the German Army not allowed to participate in any fighting positions (they can only defend themselves) in Afghanistan?
- Who sends the Hungarian Army to Afghanistan, the Generals? Last I looked it was the Hungarian Parliament.
To believe that the Military solely elects its own leaders is just silly. There is always an approval process and exactly that is the way the Politicians have the say how the Military should be managed. This is clearly stated in even the Hungarian Constitution. The last thing any politician would do is trust the Military. You even have that in your version “the command of the armed forces” is in the sphere of the Politicians.
——-
3rdly, If we turn around the question – in what way does the Police have to be more sensitive to the Politicians? Where do you find that in the Hungarian Constitution?
So who exactly is “Magyar Gárda and the National Defence Army”.
They have no mandate to assist the police from anyone other than themselves or Jobbik. They are as legitimate as a bunch of vigilantes with thier own agenda.
Who police’s their actions, what accountability do they have?
This is a nonsense and weakly veiled attempt by Jobbik to claim how the “Magyar Gárda and the National Defence Army” are making the country safe, looking after people and assuming a role they have no demonstrable capability of doing correctly only to try to win votes at the next election.
It is not logically possible to have two police forces in a country particularly two with different agenda’s, controls and accountability.
Oh silly me, of course it is, that just called the start of a civil war?
Sophie, I’ll try again. I understand you myopic
view of reality can’t handle it, but here we go:
First, the U.S.:
General officers are nominated for promotion by
the President of the United States, and confirmed
by the Senate. You can’t get more “political” than
that. The services hold in-service promotion
boards to recommend officers for general officer
promotion to the President. When vacancies occur
(a general officer gets promoted or retires), the
President nominates officers to be promoted from
these lists (with advice from the Secretary of
Defense, Secretary of the applicable service, and
the Service Chief of Staff/Commandant)
This was taken from http://usmilitary.about.com/od/promotions/l/bloffi
cerprom.htm
Please read and understand. The article even tells
you its political.
And here’s the Gendarmerie for France you love so
much:
While administratively a part of the French armed
forces, and therefore under the purview of the
Ministry of Defence, the Gendarmerie is
operationally attached to the Ministry of the
Interior for its operations within France, and
criminal investigations are run under the
supervision of prosecutors or investigating
magistrates. Its members generally operate in
uniform, and, only occasionally, in plainclothes.
Général d’Armée Roland Gilles was appointed
Director-general of the Gendarmerie by the Council
of Ministers. He officially took command on June
30, 2008, and succeeded General Guy Parayre, to
whom he had been second-in-command. General Gilles
is the second director-general who rose through
the ranks. He is the only five-star general
serving in the Gendarmerie.
So, maybe, I don’t know, seems under the
politicians to me. Like it should be, since it is
a force carrying police duties and carrying arms.
After several weeks of asking:
‘Why it would be better to build up a total separate force to police the Hungarian country-side, than just employ mor regular Police’
I have got nil answers.
Why?
Because the ‘hidden agenda’, which Jobbik seems suddenly be so afraid of spelling out is that the Gendarmerie, in it sold form, was there to scare the Roma. That is the only reason Jobbik want to introduce it – it should solely be targeting Roma and for that no real Police Officers are needed, then we all knows who is guilty, right?
The Roma guy that did not run fast enough when the Gendarmerie arrived to the nearest village.
So, Sophie, fabian and ricsi, why did you not say that from the beginning, instead of having this charade with French Gendarmerie und alles?
This my wife, who is from the north-eastern part of Hungary, told me immediately when I asked her for a couple a weeks ago about this and she is not specially interested of politics.
Why do you have a problem to show yourselves as the open racists you are?
Why not be like Stan/Godot, he never had a problem and honesty last longer.
And yes, we all know that the reason why you need to have military on the country-side to hunt down Roma is that the Jews forced you to do this. It is sooo obvious…
You should have read Wiki rather more attentively, Concerned Citizen. But do try to understand the difference between the civil service (Ministry of Defence/Interior/Agriculture, etc.) and ‘politicians’. By nature, the civil service in the modern (Weberian) state is a-political. General Roland Gilles was appointed to a senior civil service position, i.e. to the post of Director General of the Army. The rank of general was conferred upon him by the army. The appointments you are talking about in the US context are also appointment to the US civil service (the Departments of State).
So, Sophie, how do you want to have it now?
The Military reports to the Politicians, in a similar way the Police do, or you have found any difference yet?
In the last post you made all US Generals to belong to the “US civil service (the Departments of State)”. I do not think that you win any points in mixing the DoD with the DoS.
US Secretaries are roughly European Ministers, so they are highly political. In all European countries the high Military Commander is hired and fired by the Government.
You really surprise people with your lack of knowledge.
On the other hand your ability to deny everything you do not like, is bigger.
Sounds great, I wished we had patrols here in the US, maybe then criminals would less likley attacks people in theareas of the patrols.
My dear friend viking or whatever the fuck your name is supposed to be.
Get the fuck out this forum, because believe it or not I’ll fuck you up bad huneybunch. So bad, your jewish doorknob perpetrators will have their heads spinning asshole! Take a friggin’ hike …outta here
Dear Sophie,
Viking is an implant. Not the good looking blonde hotties one comes across in daily encounters, but the kind of jewish bolshevik parasite, we as Hungarians have had to deal with for generations and haven’t been to able unfleece ourselves from.
Not only do not these people adequately communicate in acceptable English on an English language website, they are trying to convince the unfortunate unaccustommed visitor for the benefit of their politics and detestable dogshit, that’s public knowledge and reality since their takeover in 1990 for anyone caring to look in today’s Budapest. Look around what they did to our precious capital! Jews madam. Jews!!
How long will it take for us Hungarians to tell these dummies (including viking or whatever his assumed name is) to bail before it’ll be too late for them?
beju,
“Get the fuck out this forum”
Ooooh, another Free Speech Professor living in the US?
No, I think I will stay around, for no other reason that I was maybe the 2nd one who posted here, ever.
I believe John Simpson was the 1st one and he claimed that the MSZP-government was committing suicide on the Hungarian people living in the country-side, because the just introduced the 300 HUF Doctor fee.
You seem to be on the same level as that immigrated Brit. What is your excuse to be here?
Sophie, I’ll ask plainly – are you stupid?
The tops of all Ministries/Departments in
Europe/the U.S. are politicians! They get
recommendations from the senior civil service
members, that is true, but even those senior civil
service members are appointed by the heads of
state!
The same for generals. Sophie, no general anywhere
gets his appointment from any place other than the
civilian authorities. It is not an internal
matter. You don’t make it that far (and have that
much say over military resources) without some
sort of political support. As mentioned, military
boards of review recommend general nominations to
the president, who then decides to take them or
not.
Officers who make that rank and wish to be
promoted further MUST have friends in both houses
of congress, since it is these bodies, making
recommendations to the president (and the
secretaries of the services) when commands are
assigned. In the real life military, you get rank
based on assignment, Sophie. This means to get
that net rank up, there has to be a post that
NEEDS your rank. And to get that, you MUST play
politics – you have to get the right people to
whisper your name to the other right people who
whisper it to President.
This is exactly the same in Britain – do you
really think top generals haven’t played golf/had
lunch with the PM at some point? And several other
MPs? How do THEIR names get up the chain to be
noticed?
So, anyway, please enter the real world Sophie.
It’s a lot tougher than you.
OK, I will answer your question Viking. Very simple. The chief of the police is appointed by and reports to the RULING government. However, the military leadership is more independent from everyday politics because they are appointed by and report to the Parliament thus basically to the whole country. So the military cannot be used for political purposes so easily as the police can be and was (look at the police ‘actions’ in the fall of 2006 when they were instructed by then prime minister Gyurcsany to do all kinds of nasty things with peaceful demonstrators). The police is also instructed by this goose thief government to look in the other direction when ‘petty’ criminals steal hard working Hungarian citizens’ property, rape them and kill them. A military style enforcement unit would be more independent from the government and it would make sure that the existing laws are upheld (unlike the ‘police’ who is very busy shooting people’s eyes out, but still ‘does not’ find the killers of a 14 year old girl who was also brutally raped). Hopefully now you would understand.
@JD you really need to calm down and stop being paranoid. The Hungarian Guard is not out to get you or any honest hard working person. They are NOT a paramilitary unit as they DO NOT carry weapons. They have ancient, traditional Hungarian uniforms and their mere presence conveys force and respect. Unless you did something bad, you do not have to worry. Nobody is out to get you, nobody has an agenda, do not worry
Roamer,
You make some logical errors here.
1) The Parliament elects the PM by majority vote.
2) The PM selects his Government (Ministers etc).
3) The Government (Ministers) report to the Parliament on a regular basis and the Governments actions is approved, or a vote of no-confidence is launched and the PM, with is Government, is history.
4) In this sense there is no difference between the Parliament and the Government, then the majority of the Parliament is responsible for the Governments actions. If they do not like them, change Government, if not, they approve.
5) The Government does not create laws etc. It is the appropriate majority in Parliament. Government executes the laws that the Parliament approves.
6) To implement the Gendarmerie, as you describe, means that the Constitution need to be re-written then the use of force inside the country is very limited to the Police. There are a few described extreme scenarios, when military can be used legally. This is the norm in Europe. I know you US guys are used to see soldiers everywhere, but here in Europe we like to keep our soldiers off the streets.
7) Finally, if now the Gendarmerie is such an extremely good idea, why cannot we have them in the cities them. As you claim yourself, it is in the cities the Police shoot at people with rubber bullets and tear-gas. Much better to have the Army then, right? At least they do not have rubber bullets.
That’s interesting Roamer. I wonder if that “care
and consideration” from Jobbik and the Guard (if
they were to ever get in power, highly unlikely)
applies to someone in Hungary if that are Black or
Chinese? You know, they have families, work hard,
pay taxes, etc. What does the Guard say to them?
I will not comment too deeply into this. The The French Gendarmerie, the Italian Caribinaries are the national police forces and are not allowed to interfear whilst the lodcal Police have things under control or the problem becomes National.
The use of a heavily armed force answerable to no one or a group of Vigilantes taking the law into their own hands without being ‘sworn constables’ will cause much embarrassment and damage to Hungary.
To all of you who support this move should read the peace treaty which brought peace to Hungary at the end of the last war. It is called the Treaty of Paris 1947. It has one clause which, in my and many other’s opinion, is being broken.
Beju, I apologise for this late reply: I missed your post. You said: ‘Viking is an implant. Not the good looking blonde … Not only do not these people adequately communicate in acceptable English on an English language website, they are trying to convince the unfortunate unaccustommed visitor for the benefit of their politics and detestable dogshit…’.
True, but don’t let them worry you. They are thick as planks and generally offensive. I do not think them capable of convincing anyone. (The aliases they choose are amusing, though: lots of wishful thinking there.)
Odin’s, ‘vigilantes taking the law into their own hands’ is not the characterisation of community groups who volunteer to help the police. The police welcome help from community organisations. That is the help that the Garda and the National Defence Army is offering. Have you not noticed that neither the police nor the local communities in which these organisations are operative have rejected their help?
This is truly the frightening reality that occurs when there is a lack of leadership and a power vacuum in a country.
Any policing of the country should come from state sanctioned sources. Not any old Joe who feels like “helping out”. This is a surreptitious attempt to gain power by Jobbik.
If the country’s leadership is not strong enough to outright reject these activities/offers, which they most definitely should in this case, then the danger is that these “helpers” end up taking over the show with absolutely no accountability.
The absolutely MUST be stopped before it takes hold. Neither the government nor the police should remain silent and must reject this move outright.
Jobbik is a legal, simple no issues with the organisation. Plain truth not the corruption and lies, from the current crimanals running the country.
Sophie,
“community groups who volunteer to help the police”
So what is then the difference between the common use of PolgarÖr and MG/NDA?
Why dress up then you could do your civil duty anyway as a member of the local PolgarÖr?
Still no one who could explain why the Magyar Gárda and the National Defence Army is better than normal PolgarÖr (neighbourhood-watch), which is a rather developed thing in many villages.
If the Jobbik feels that people need protection, they should tell their members and sympathisers to engage in the local neighbourhood watch. That is something that can build up local communities when working together.
Letting Magyar Garda running patrols will just divide those local communities, then they are not acting on behalf of all locals. It is more like ‘Rent-A-Cop’.
No wonder that some of the tops in Magyar Garda owns Security companies. They are just creating a market for themselves and cheat with taxes then it is hard to know/prove if a ‘Gardist’ is acting on behalf of Magyar Garda (‘free of charge’) or one of the Security companies involved.
Also we have the spectrum of corruption here – If this village hires my Security company to guard the Polgarmeister Office, you will get Magyar Garda to patrol the Roma part of the village.
Just another example how politics and business marries each other, nothing new with this either.
Jobbik is just the old same, but in more blacks clothes than the rest.
Dear people!
I dont know why you guys attacking Sophie!
If the things what most of the people mention here is true, than i would be against the Hungarian guard! But its not true!
Yes the police can not do their jobs, bicause political control, and bicause a lack of staf and pilice.
The Hungarian guards is a civil organisation who wont receive money, for going down on their own cost, in their free time, to small vilages, and help to keep up the safety!
Important to, know when it was created, they media was already atacking it for no reason. We have other groups in hungary, wich is closer to military than the Hungarian guards, and nobody says nothing about them!! Just for people here to be informed about the real stuff.
The hungarian Guard, is a half military civil organisation: half bicause they dont have weapons. its the same thing when you and your friends come togeather in the same trousers, shirt, and start marching, but this is whit 100times more people.
The hungarian guard never done nothing against the hungarian law, but it was acused continously!
The hungarian guard dont have the same right than a police. They are civilians, they have only their civil right. When the are attacked, like you or, me or any other people has the right to defend its self, but to act you need to have special rights like the police have. So this is a Wrong and missleading information!
They go down whit 500people and march around, to show power, thats all what they do!