Support for the Socialists is 9% among decided voters, the same as for the far-right Jobbik, according to a Nézőpont Institute poll conducted for Heti Válasz. This is the first time that Socialist support has ever polled below 10%, the conservative weekly notes.
The survey, conducted a week after the June 7 European Parliament elections, shows that Fidesz has 48% support, the Democratic Forum has 3% approval, with the Free Democrats and the nascent LMP (Politics Can Be Different) on 2% each. Meanwhile 14% were undecided and 12% would not answer.
Of those interviewed, 72% believe Jobbik will probably win parliamentary seats next year, and 20% and 40% respectively for the Free Democrats and the Democratic Forum.
Of the respondents, 29% described the work of the Bajnai cabinet as unsatisfactory and 23% satisfactory, while two-thirds favour early elections.
Of current Socialist politicians who may become the party’s next leader, 23% of respondents would opt for Speaker Katalin Szili, 15% for party chairwoman Ildikó Lendvai and 11% for caucus leader Attila Mesterházy.
Jobbik has doubled its supporters to 10% since last May while Fidesz has 34% support, according to pollster Tárki. Fidesz has lost voters to the far-right party in the last month, the poll found.
Support for Fidesz among decided party voters stands at 58%, down from 70% gauged in May.
Support for the Socialists stands at 13%, while 40% of the population have no party preference. If national elections were held on Sunday, 46% would turn out to cast their vote.
A Medián poll shows that the proportion of voters who agree with the statement “only Jobbik cares for the interests of the man on the street” has risen from 34% to 39%. Meanwhile 54% call Jobbik “dangerous”, and 45% consider the party “outright fascist”.
The Nézőpont poll interviewed 1,000 adults from June 16-19.
Hello again, I originally posted this request in the thread, “FM calls Slovak parliament statement on Hungary unacceptable” because I thought it would be a bit more relevant here.
—————-
Sorry to be off topic, but I’ve been told this is one of the the best bi-lingual Hungarian politics sites.
I’m writing a piece on the rise of the European far-right for a Swedish paper.
I just wanted to know please, is this an accurate translation of Kristina Morvai?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CwilgZBi7Y
Koszonom!
—————-
A poster called ‘Vándorló’ said that it was a “very good quality” translation (thank-you!) I just would like to get it confirmed by ONE other Hungarian speaker: just to be on the safe side.
‘Godot’ if you are here too, you said “Far-right? We don’t have that in Hungary.” can I ask, do you really believe that? Or were you just being sarcastic? Please understand I have no vested interest in portraying the story one way or another, I just want to be accurate. Because extremism (of a different kind) is a problem we face in Malmö too.
But my editor couldn’t believe that 15% (nearly as much as the ruling party’s 17%) of the Hungarian population just became ‘Nazis’ in the European elections. So a lot of people must really believe what ‘Godot’ said. I would just like it explained if possible.
Thanks so much for your time. (and for allowing to post Moderator)
Fascism is coming to Hungary. I feel so sorry for that country that I grew to love. And I am so glad I got out.
I hope that the Hungarian people come to their senses before it is too late for their country.
malmomonster: Vándorló is not a Hungarian, he is a neoliberal UK expat, who unfortunately, lives here.
I watched that link, and the translation is fine. That link was Jobbik’s own television, so I checked their site, to see if the link with the translation was there as well. It is.
I find people using blogs as reliable sources disturbing, though. I wouldn’t be taking any one’s word here on these things.
There are plenty of Hungarians in Sweden on all political sides, why don’t you contact them?
The Jobbik, or any who voted for them are not nazis. This is not a term which can be used for Hungarians, particularly Hungarians were considered an inferior people in Nazi ideology. I do not think there is such a thing as an “European far-right” although there are obviously some similarities. They also have platforms in common with the far left.
@malmomonster: You should keep in mind that Tünde is the same kind of Hungarian as Morvai, which fully explains her comments on this and all other matters.
Morvai is/was a legal expert in domestic violence before she clearly went insane. Now she is something of a practitioning expert in psychological and social violence.
My favourite video of her is on outside partliament shouting ‘HAZAÁRULÓ!’ (homeland betrayers/sell-outs) at bewildered passersby:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ2C0WNIg6Q
This is how I imagine Tünde is, too.
Real Hungarians are nothing like these disgusting people.
is anyone here in a position to explain to me
the jobbik platform?
“Hungary to the hungarians” What does this mean?
who is a hungarian and who not? Why Hungary does
not belong to the hungarians then?
Anyone?
And the jobbik economic platform?
what does it mean exactly to put community
intersts first? What is this for a hollow twittering? Anyone on that one?
and what about foreign policy? where does jobbik stand here?
judas ,
here a part answer:
This is after all our Homeland. This is our home and this is where we are at home. We can no longer tolerate their threatening us and forcing us to work with whispers and secrets. As jurists and as educators, we have a special responsibility to prevent the loss of the independence of Hungary, the further squandering of the assets, the loss of the Hungarian arable lands and natural treasures to the hands of foreigners, the further impoverishment of the people and the deprivation of their rights and their dignity. The cheated, abandoned, bitter, Hungarian people, driven out of power, out of the economy and from the narrow elite, are expecting our help, help from the jurists. They trust that there is truth and truth will prevail. We need to be such jurists and we need to raise such jurists who love their Homeland and who are able to feel the suffering of the cheated, tormented, defenseless people who have been deprived of their rights, and who bravely and determinedly stand beside us.
Respectfully
Dr. Krisztina Morvai
University Lecturer, Faculty of Political Science and Law
Thanks Vándorló, for proving my point to malmomonster.
Malmomonster, if you are very bored, check out Vándorló’s own site for a real study in pathology.
magy i do not know where this comes from.
is this Krisztina Morvai orginal tone?
If yes ,and lets assume it is, than the question
immediatly arises:
Whom actually is she fighting against?
The lawyers and Universities,the political establishment in Hungary ?
or is she putting all the blame on the “foreigners”,whoever she ment with this,who
invested here ,built factories,gave jobs etc.
does she really believe that in todays environment
Hungary can survive economically without foreign
investment and ownership? Do you think hungarian
paprika,unikum,pick sausages and the rubik cube
are enough to guarantee a free and prosperous hungary. Or how does she suggest to solve this riddle? Any idea?
judas
Do you have red hair?
I don’t think I’m in a position to explain all of “Jobbik’s platform” but I think I can help you a little with the historical background to the “Hungary to the Hungarians” line.
This Monday there was an article on the Roma in Europe in the Guardian by Robert Fox. I’m afraid it is the usual hysterical sensationalist rubbish intended to stoke the fears of the Western readership. As a Brit I can tell you that there is a certain species of article in the respectable press that is called a “marmalade dropper” where the reader is supposed to drop their marmalade toast onto themselves in shock from reading it at breakfast – this is an example.
But in this 2nd comment here, a poster called “Hedgiefan” gives a nice sum up of the Magyar attachment to the idea of one land, one people (one Führer?). I mean the historical reasons for it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/22/roma-europe-discrimination-attacks?commentpage=4
S/He also provides a link to a much more level-headed article on the Roma, if that might also help you to understand Jobbik’s appeal.
http://www.tol.cz/look/TOL/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=327&NrSection=2&NrArticle=20659
@Tünde: As always if you think those other people/that other person posting as magy, judas, no-one… was me you are wrong.
You never make a point that needs proving.
malmomonster,
Som svensk boende i Budapest sedan 1993 i praktiken och inte har något som helst ungerskt påbrå, kan jag se det hela lite distanserat.
Ja, Jobbik är i klassen NationalDemokraterna, till höger om SD, men med SDs appeal och smartness. De är unga och duktiga på att marknadsföra sig. De är smarta på att hitta alla kryphål i lagen som gör att de kan säga en massa utan att bli ansvariga för dem, typ vad som kan ses på denna site och pestiside.hu en massa utryck för anti-roma/judar/slovaker/resten av världen.
Man kan diskutera deras ställning just nu, men det var EP-valet och det var lite valdeltagande. Bilden i det nationella valet planerat till april 2010 (lokal-valen är 6 månader senare) blir säkert lite annorlunda.
Man ska komma ihåg att 1998 fick det gamla MIEP, som är ett mycket mer öppet anti-judiskt parti runt 8% av rösterna i riksdagsvalet. Så det finns en gammal ‘fin’ tradition att vårda och idag är det Jobbik som gör det.
Jobbik startade en uniformerad svartskjorte-brigad som består av ca 2.000 aktiva melemmar, som brukar åka ut till olika byar med hög andel roma och demonstrera. Detta är avsett att skrämma romerna. Flera romer har också blivit skjutna med gevär på avstånd i natten och det finns ett uppenbart terrorist-motiv här. För någon vecka sedan blev en av de mest välkända ‘bråkmakarna’ arresterad för tesrrist-relaterade brott, inkl att planera mord på socialist-politiker.
Regeringen är inte populär och lär förlora valet.
Vilka som kommer?
Viking,
Your Swedish is almost as bad as your English.
Maybe you should not be writing in any languages.
You are right Vándorló, I don’t make many points that need proving. And, you really an idiot, because I wrote that in reply to your response to malmomonster.
20 years here and you translate hazaáruló as “homeland betrayer”? What is that, some attempt to make this seem some particularly Hungarian concept?
It means “traitor” you fool. But of course that is an entirely incomprehensible concept to you, so I can understand you had a hard time to translate it. Try Országh.
I didn’t think you were either, certainly not magy, and Judas seems smarter than you are also seems to know more about Hungary. Probably not to our benefit (no offense Judas, but hey, the name, and all, where did the Radnóti posts go?), but anyway.
You really have a complex, and an ego. Now go away, this is tiresome.
@Ex-ex-pat
I know it’s terrifying!!
Even The Economist now accepts that Fidesz will win next year and this Movement for a ’Better’ (don’t make me $%*#ing laugh) Hungary will be the new opposition.
The Economist article on Jobbik this week is entitled —
“HUNGARY’S OPPOSITION: A NASTY PARTY”
Time to get out!
@Tünde: Thanks for the input, it could simply be ‘traitor’, but then she could also have simply shouted (and fingered) ‘áruló’ in that case. As with your translation confusing ‘psychopath’ and ‘psychopathic personality (disorder)’.
In this case I think the extra emphasis provided by ‘haza’ is doubly important, so something like ‘national’ or ‘homeland’ traitor/betrayer/sell-out is needed to underline the venom. This is afterall a lawyer and Prof. at a Budapest University giving the finger to police outside her national parliament.
Have ‘national traitor’ if you like, but ‘traitor’ on its own doesn’t cut it. If she wanted to say ‘áruló’ she would have said it.
@Vándorló
Circumsized cocks and now Krisztina is “fingering” policemen outside the parliament building?? That’s disgusting!
Dr Morvai is mad allright, if you ask me…
SEX MAD!!
What do they gay pride parade people have to say about this? All these men in uniform getting fingered…
Vándorló: I didn’t translate psychopath, moron, I said you were one. And we do not normally call people psychopathic personalities in Hungarian, nor do you in English, but hey if you want to say you have only a psychopathic personality, and are not an entire psychopath, that is fine with me. I don’t know you that well to decide, and have no desire to either.
Traitor in context is obvious to anyone other than someone like you who has no concept of loyalty. In any case, it would be traitor to one’s country, not “homeland betrayer”.
I wasted spent more than an hour dealing with your useless twaddle today, so I am leaving to do someone productive.
@Tünde
“so I am leaving to do someone productive”
…what’s the lucky man’s name!
First of all, I am not an expert on the Jobbik platform, such as it is. But as a political scientist and historian, I must take issue with the branding of such ideologies as fascism, national socialism and the like as “right wing”. Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin were all products of the radical left, not the right. Since it became politically expediant in the west during the Second World War to make some sort of differenciation between Stalin and the other two, the term “right wing extremist” was coined, and the useful idiots of the fourth estate took up the term and passed it on to their intellectually challenged progeny. The terms “fascist” and “right wing extremist” now have almost no root to their actual meaning, but are used to mean “anyone the establishment doesn’t like.” Again, I am no expert on Jobbik and it’s platform, but from what I have read it seems to have much in common with left-wing statist economic policies. Nationalisation of industries and the sanctity of “the land” are all facets of left wing statist political systems, not right wing ones. Of course I don’t expect a “journalist” to understand such distictions, especially one who is doing his “research” on a blog to actually get all this. Much easier just to throw out some pushbutton catchphrases and make the citizenry quake in fear of the spectre of the “far right”, it also helps the Eurocrats to justify their distain of the “people” of Europe, who obviously don’t have the sense to rule themselves.
all of the above did not bring any closer
to the answer what “Jobbik” means with Hungary to the hungarians.
Who is a hungarian and who not?
what is hungary and what not?
How does a hungarian define himself?What is is/she?
Judas,
The above was not meant to answer the question you pose, but to the Swedish journalist who posted the original thread starter here. As to your question, I have stated that I am no expert in the platform of Jobbik, so I can not say what they mean when they say “Hungary for the Hungarians”, nor can I say who they would consider a Hungarian, and who might be disqualified. I can give some illumination on what it has meant to be a Hungarian in an historical context. Ever since the advent of the Magyars in the Carpathian Basin in the 10th century, there has been a scarcity of Magyars in the population of the region. This was particularly excacerbated by the Mongol invasions of the mid 13th cen. Ironically, it has only been since the Treaty of Trianon that the land area of Hungary has been populated by a Magyar majority. Throughout most of the history of the Kingdom of Hungary, to be a Hungarian meant that you lived within the boundaries of the Kingdom, spoke the Hungarian language and adopted the Hungarian culture. There was no racial, ethnic or religious component to the equation. Thus we have such good Hungarians today with surnames such as Horvath, Olah, Racz, Nemet, Lengyel, Gorog, etc. What Jobbik’s definition of who is a “Hungarian” and who is not I can not speak to.
Tanárúr,
“Ironically, it has only been since the Treaty of Trianon that the land area of Hungary has been populated by a Magyar majority”
Got a source for that?
Because Lászlo Kontler argues that the “spectacular” regeneration following the expulsion of the Ottomans led to the relative decline of Magyars in the population of the Kingdom of Hungary.
“..from about 50% fifty per cent around 1700, the proportion of Hungarians within the population further decreased to below forty percent by the middle of the nineteeth century.”
He argues that “Besides natural growth, this was due to several waves of organised and spontaneous immigration”
(A History of Hungary: Millenium in central Europe, pgs 192).
A more interesting question is, at least for me, is Magyorszag the same as Hungary and is a Magyar a Hungarian: or might this be an equivocation of the sort that equates British with English.
Simplistic shit for the hard of thinking. That’s what the Jobbik platform is all about.
Morvai is becoming somewhat of an expert (read arsehole)at pontificating on any populist issues like Trianon, re-organisation of police in
the local communities, kill the foreigner rhetoric, return farmland to nationals
(that nobody wants by the way) and so on and so forth ad infinitum.
I am not against right-wing parties but Morvai and Jobbik better start coming up with more relistics plans and policies if they wish to build on their recent success.
Tünde, Vandórló, now slumming it with the underclass on this forum? Whatever next. Less of the theory though, and let’s have some original ideas,preferably from outside your academic text book unalmas/boring, twaddle.
@DanUberAlles: “Less of the theory though, and let’s have some original ideas,preferably from outside your academic text book unalmas/boring, twaddle.” Lead the way smart arse.
Sophist,
The figures you cite do not contradict my previous assertions, rather they support them. Kontler says that the Magyar population was about 50% of the population in the year 1700, and declined after that. 50% is not a majority, and when he counts the 50% that is Magyar, he is counting “cultural” Magyars, not some racial or ethnic group. Especially after the depradations of the Mongols, the kings of Hungary had encouraged the settlement of Saxons, Slavs and Greeks into the kingdom to increase the population. As I mentioned in my previous post, these people were expected to use Hungarian as their main language, to adopt Hungarian culture as their own, and to be loyal to the king. After a couple of generations, these people became indistinguishable from the pure Magyar people of the country, and became counted as Magyars. Trianon cut out nearly all of the non-Magyar population of Hungary, as well as a large number of the Magyar population. Within the kingdom of Hungary, as well as within Austria-Hungary, language was always the means of deciding who was what. A Hungarian was defined as someone who used the Hungarian language as their first language, someone who spoke Romanian was a Romanian, etc. The fact of the matter is, that after 1000 years of living in the midst of Germans and Slavs, and the unwanted additions of Mongols, Turks and Russians via rapine and pillage, it would be nearly impossible to find a Hungarian who has the blood of Arpad undiluted.
Tanarur,
Is it not like that before Trianon when the Jews were counted separate, the Jews were used to make up the 51-53% Hungarian majority, then the Jews were regarded as Hungarians, then they spoke basically Hungarian?
The Jews were counted to be around 5% of the total population.
So before Trianon, the Jews were needed and regarded as ‘Hungarians’, but after they became not so necessary any more, so better to get rid of them?
Now they were an ‘alien element in the Hungarian body’?
Viking: “Som svensk boende i Budapest sedan 1993 i praktiken och inte har något som helst ungerskt påbrå, kan jag se det hela lite distanserat”.
Is that really true, that you have a – as a quick translation would imply – that you are totally distanced vis a vis hungarian politics? Are you an objective source of information?
My concert is not your statement – “det er din sag”, but that you give it like an objective ring to it.
Lets face it, you are not an investigate journalist, but a part of the game.
Lacho calad,
“Viking: “Som svensk boende i Budapest sedan 1993 i praktiken och inte har något som helst ungerskt påbrå, kan jag se det hela lite distanserat”
should I translate into
‘As a Swede living in Budapest since 1993 and having no Hungarian relatives I can have a bit of a distance to the situation’.
Should be understood that I do not have a personal relation to Trianon, WWI, WWII, 1956 and 1989, or living in Hungary during the period before 1993.
So, I use another glasses when I look at the situation at hand here right now.
Simply put, I have no reason to write posts like the Illinois Nazis, Sophie and others who grew up here (maybe). I have a more international outlook, because I grew up with other references, basically more Swedish such, namely respect for other people and the Christian message of Love, not Revenge, which is more the East-European representation of Christianity.
I wrote in Swedish to a supposedly fellow Swede and I try to use the references such a person would understand.
I have never ever claimed to be “an investigate journalist”. I do not know where you got that from?
I personally know some of the investigate journalist who made a name for them in Sweden in the 70-80s. Therefore I have always regarded them as “part of the game”.
I do not claim to be better than them, of course I try to influence the part of the world I can.
Or is that wrong nowadays?
Tanárúr,
“and when he counts the 50% that is Magyar, he is counting “cultural” Magyars, not some racial or ethnic group”
I agree with your argument about racial Magyars, but Kontler doesn’t share your distinction between racial and cultural ethnicity. He definitely is making an argument about the ethnic (racial or otherwise) composition of Hungary, and it is important to his history of Hungary. Writing of 1867 he says
“…Francis Joseph’s Hungary differed from that of Matthias I in a respect that became crucial [at the time of the compromise]: its ethnic composition…” (pg 263)
The implication is that at Matthias’s time Magyars were the majority ethnic group. When you write otherwise, I’m not disagreeing with you, I have my own doubts about Kontler’s argument (i.e his demogrpahic data). I would just like to know where you picked up the idea that Hungarians were never the majority ethnicity, so I could check it out for myself.
Here’s a thought on the racial ethnicity of Hungarians, their migration took 4,000 years they’ve been in the Capathian basin for a 1,100. So by the time they got here they might have already lost a lot of their racial identity as they intermarried with the Iranian, Turkic and Slavic peoples they shared European Russia with. This suggests that racial identity was a red herring to begin with. Do you disagree that the time of Mathias the majority population of Hungary were cultural Magyars?
Viking: Sine ira et studio. “Som svensk burde du have nerverne i orden”!
Lacho calad,
‘Viking: Sine ira et studio. “Som svensk burde du have nerverne i orden”!’
Eeh, are we learning Swedish here or is it more Norwegian?
If I translate that into English it would be ‘As Swedish you should have nerves in the words’
I cannot make that understandable in any variant/language.
Dear Sophist,
Allow me to disagree. Not with your listed alleged proofs, but with their timing and perpetuating feed for insinuation for those intent on dooming our nation. The Magyars. The more we dwell upon where we came from politically as opposed to pragmatically protecting our national heritage as a nation be it a myth or not which might be open for dialogue for later, the more Hungary is finished as a country or what’s left of it. Think very carefully about it. Very carefully. Our national survival depends on everyone’s understanding of what’s at stake. Your in-depth review is not timely to the least.
Viking,
As a Swede living in my country, you really do have nerves. Excuse me, they’d be called “balls” in English.
Lacho calad,
‘Viking: Sine ira et studio. “Som svensk burde du have nerverne i orden”!’
Eeh, are we learning Swedish here or is it more Norwegian?
If I translate that into English it would be ‘As Swedish you should have nerves in the words’
I cannot make that understandable in any variant/language.”
You don’t translate anything to English.
Let me help you to correct your latest lame attempt.
“As a Swede, you gotta have balls in this world.”
What statement is as lame as your attempt to wanting to translate into English.
Love my Swedish dummy.
No, its danish. So, keep your hair on. The translation is still on.
beju,
“As a Swede, you gotta have balls in this world”
OK that was a rather flattering translation, it is not what is written in what-ever mixed language Lacho calad wrote “Som svensk burde du have nerverne i orden” in.
It is clearly not pure Swedish, if it is mixed with Norwegian or Danish one can discuss.
But I really do not understand the reason to discuss this, then I did not write that.
Lacho calad uses that against (?) me, but it is, for a Swede, not a really understandable statement.
If it is understandable for a Danish, well that is like asking an Hungarian something that may be understandable for a Slovak. Big point.
Viking,
What sort of nonsense are you spouting? Did you see any reference to Jews or any other ethnic or religious groups in my post? I specifically stated that language and culture were the measures used, not ethnicity or religion. Your post is wrong and distorted in so many ways. First, the percentage of Magyar speakers in pre-Trianon Hungary was around 43%, not 51% or anything near it. Jews were not counted seperately, in fact in the lands of Austria-Hungary Jews were the most emancipated and integrated of any place in Europe. Your knee jerk reactions are part of the reasons why this blog has become tedious. To be fair, you have come up with some interesting posts from time to time, but they are getting few and far between. Perhaps you should aim more for quality and less for quantity. I personally have no interest in the “Jewish question” that seems to consume you and others on this blog, albeit from different perspectives. I have no time for people who seek to find scapegoats for the problems of Hungary, as there are more than enough Hungarians to blame. I also have no time for people who want to view every person who has an interest and knowledge of Hungarian history, culture and language as some sort of anti-semitic knuckle dragger. As the Bard said, “A pox on both your houses”.
Tanarur: Thank you for inserting intelligence in this stream. In particular about the (non) existence „facsism” or „neofacism” in Hungary. I am not a representative of Jobbik either, but I am really sick and tired of saying that, as if Jobbik is some sort of disease. This is exactly how the communists got rid of all the parties after the war, by calling them fascist.
And the point about language is key, which is why when György Péter says that (even!) the language is unnecessary, because, he says, the Irish are still Irish and they have lost their language, it is more than annoying. Anyway language is key but not sufficient, it was also „to adopt Hungarian culture as their own, and to be loyal to the king” (or country). So when we have lost all three, we will no longer exist.
Sophist,
As for the cultural/ethnic composition of the Kingdom of Hungary at the time of Matthias, I would venture to say that the Magyars were the dominant group in the Carpathian Basin, but not the majority. Due to the severe depopulation of the land following the depradations of the Mongols, succesive kings encouraged the immigration of people to repopulate the area, especially Saxons and Slavs, but also Greeks. Matthias himself encouraged the immigration of German artisans to the towns and cities of his kingdom. This is one reason why Latin was used up until the 18th century as the language of county assemblies and other official gatherings. I do not have all my source material at hand to cite specific works and authors, I just have the knowledge as one who has studied the history of Hungary, and having made the study and teaching of history my life’s work.
Viking: Like Vándorló, how can someone live here for this long and have no idea of Hungary or its history? It is not Trianon that made the Jews distinct, in fact Jews themselves complained about being left behind the border. I know it will come as a surprise you, Hungarians were far, far more generous to them than the Czechs, the Slovaks, the ethnic Germans and the Romanians, not to mention the various slavs south of the border). It was the Tanácsköztársaság which was dividing line. (Read Tormay Cécile, The Outlaw’s Diary). They were not „gotten” rid of after Trianon. Many, such as almost everyone in Kati Marton’s book, quickly left the country though, and not for some sort of fear of revenge against them for being Jews.
„I grew up with other references, basically more Swedish such, namely respect for other people and the Christian message of Love, not Revenge, which is more the East-European representation of Christianity.” This is ridiculous.
Your nick is Viking, not exactly the kind of representative of „Christian” love you write of, but I can understand your problem with nazis as Swedes were notoriously fond of them at the time and have always felt a kinship with the Germans.
Nor is „East European Christianity” vengeful, because there is no such thing.
I love it how you people tell Hungarians not to generalize about peoples yet say we are one thing, and your peoples are another.
Sophist: As you know, magyars do not use the term Hungarian. In English that is considered a political term and magyar an ethnic one. You can argue about what that means, as we have less than 1% of Árpád’s genes in us. On the other hand ethnic Hungarians (again, to you that would be a red herring) is used to describe magyars living in the neighbouring countries, but usually the term magyar is used, in English, to describe related peoples in say the former USSR.
@Tanárur: Do you not think it danagerous and perhaps somewhat disingenuous and misleading to confuse the colloquial use of the ford ‘fascist’ as used as an insult and that of the more objective use of the terms as would be understood by educated social commentators and historians?
That fascist doctrines are genering coming from extremists from the left is merely a red herring. Whether you like to comment on it or not Jobbik is a neo-fascist movement in the it is:
“a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion” (Paxton, Robert. The Anatomy of Fascism. Knopf; 3rd edition 2004)
@Tünde: Re-read what he wrote. He made no comment about whether Jobbik was fascist in their ideology or not. Nor did he make any statement about whether they are ‘extremists’. He may do so in the future, but we should let him say for himself. He certainly said nothing that could support your unfounded assertion about “the (non) existence „facsism” or „neofacism” in Hungary”.
I would also say that both Jobbik and Fidesz are paradoxically parties of the left, Jobbik essentially being a marxist.
Tanarur,
It was not meaning to offend you with my questions, but I do think that I have a point when we look at this stats (Pre-Trianon):
Year Total population % ‘Hungarians’
1790 8,000,000 37.7%
1828 11,495,536 40–45%
1846 12,033,399 40–45%
1880 13,749,603 46%
1900 16,838,255 51.4%
1910 18,264,533 54.5% 5% Jews (counted according to their mother tongue)
So, in the last pre-Trianon census 1910 5% of the Hungarians were known to be Jews.
The Emperor Joseph II decreed in 1784 that a census be taken in 1785-1786. This was the first official census of Hungary. This census included names and ages of the male population, required for conscription purposes of course.
Beginning in 1805 through 1880 censuses were taken at irregular intervals in both Austria and Hungary.
Some of these counts were general like the 1828 census of property owners; others, such as the 1848 Hungarian census of the Jews, were taken of specific areas or for specific purposes. Beginning in 1880 a census was taken every ten years. The last census of Austria-Hungary was in 1910.
The information provided in these records varies according to census. Some list only head of household, conscription number of house, and taxable property.
Many of the censuses of the 1800s give house number, head of household, names of members of the household (including servants), ages, occupations, religions, and relationships to head of household; some also give date and place of birth.
@Tünde: I have lived here, this time for 2 years. I have had an ongoing ‘relationship’ with Hungary for 20.
Please read slowly and try to stop jumping to claim support for any a priori default assumptions you have.
Viking: I did read you, ever so slowly, but still can’t make head or tails of what you are trying to say. Try a third language.
Vándorló: “I would also say that both Jobbik and Fidesz are paradoxically parties of the left, Jobbik essentially being a marxist.”
Exactly how long did it take to rack what is left of your brain to figure that out?
In any case, you are only half Fidesz is playing a party of the what you call “the left”, (those terms are meaningless, try “socialist”) Jobbik seems not to be.
V-V: Apologies, multitasking. Regardless, the post is good for both, you and Viking make about as equal amounts of sense.
And I meant half-right.
Vándorló: You are technically right, I was extending on: The terms “fascist” and “right wing extremist” now have almost no root to their actual meaning, but are used to mean “anyone the establishment doesn’t like.” and “Much easier just to throw out some pushbutton catchphrases and make the citizenry quake in fear of the spectre of the “far right”"
So take the thing on the non-existence of fascism here, at least on what is mistakenly called the “far-right” to be mine.
Tünde,
“It is not Trianon that made the Jews distinct”.
True and I never claimed that. What I stated is that to create an ‘Hungarian majority in the Pre-Trianon Kingdom’ the Jews, who were counted as 5% of the population was also counted as ‘Hungarians’, not as ‘Romanians’, ‘Slovaks’ etc.
Pls see my post June 26, 2009 10:10 AM.
———
The question of what the Christian message is here in the traditional East-European part?
First I am an Atheist, but having a Swedish Pentecostal upbringing I know a bit or two of the Bible. My own experience of Christianity has had the Love-message as the most important part.
True, I do not see the message of Revenge as the main message from *only* Hungarian/East-European churches, I also see it from some big US churches and it saddens me, then in these countries an aggressive tone and actions exists to how to handle social and national issues.
There is a close influence between local politics and the local interpretation of whatever religion people like to worship.
Some of the messages Hungarian priests comes up with are as hateful, mainly against Jews, as some of the Muslim Clerics that are poisoning their people in the message of Revenge.
The rationale for these Christian priests is God as the Revenger to all evil, which of course is applied to a another group.
————
“you people tell Hungarians not to generalize about peoples yet say we are one thing, and your peoples are another”
But now we are all Europeans, so be happy.
Viking: We were all Europeans “before” as well. Look at a map.
I agree with Tanár úr, you seem to be obsessed with the Jewish question. I am not opposed to discussing it, but you, as almost every one else here, are incapable of debating it, but insist on seeing it as a black and white issue. I know Jews who are more capable of discussing it than many non-Jews here.
You did not say Trianon was the reason, but you implied that after Hungary became homogeneous Jews were no longer wanted. This is not true, and the question is more complex than that. The Jews were indeed the most emancipated here previously, and not only in Austria-Hungary, but even within the kingdom of Hungary. It is a range of political, cultural and economic issues that lead to what you are writing about.
As as you say you have read the Bible you might be aware that revenge is more in the Old Testament, not the New. It is not the Old Testament which is typical of Christianity in “Eastern” Europe, except for certain (new, American) sects like the Hitgyülekezet. And the rift between the Catholic Church and Islam and the Jews is not new and I really do not think that “revenge” is the problem there.
Tünde,
I am for sure not “obsessed with the Jewish question”. If you check my posts that are related “with the Jewish question” they normally argues against posts that are clearly inspired by the “Blame the Jews”-logic.
Some Hungarians seems the “obsessed with the Jewish question” and can find a (bad of course) Jewish angle on everything.
I have some typical MIEP/Jobbik voters/members in my close Hungarian-circle. What would you call people who, when they hit a stone or something unrelated cry out “Dirty Jew” or maybe should it be “Stinking Jew” (in Hungarian).
You would not call them “obsessed with the Jewish question”?
Of course they see themselves as Upright White Hungarians and as Good Christians.
Being the same God, just different prophets, you wonder which disciples (Jew/Christian/Mohammed) will go where at the final day?
Better to be an Atheist, then I am sure where to end up, and better to have fun in this life instead.
Viking,
It appears you do nurse a grudge within you and your own arguments big time! Didn’t I relay the particularly helpful, ample angles for you to actually study the problem at hand before you get out there and make an ass out of yourself?
Let me correct you on a few things that might cheer you up.
Religion as is individually stupid, be it of any denomination. I call it brainwashing.
Yet religion on a national, societal scale is power. Power my friend. Just like menoras displayed on public places in a christian country.
Power.
Grow up to recognize it pragmatically and work to undermine them secretly. You’ll be suprised what religion arises subsequently to be. Religion of the new aspirants to power, who will use the same religious symbolism to justify their creed.
Religion is a means to an end.
Yet in today’s Hungary, for the sake of national self-preservation, Christianity must rule.
As a means.
beju,
“Yet in today’s Hungary, for the sake of national self-preservation, Christianity must rule”
So Hungarians can be Europeans?
Did not Istvan Kiraly sell out the Hungarian nation to European integration, in form of the Vatican, a millennium ago?
Is not a good Catholics first allegiance to the Pope and not to the country’s leader?
It needs to be enlightened man, enlightened men and women who are attuned with their God selves and attuned with God and therefore know the Laws of God, not through one religion as in the Catholic Church, for that is clearly a system that does not work. I am not talking about making one religion the ultimate religion or the only true religion in any country in Europe. I am talking about the universal realization that beyond the outer churches and religions, there is a universal body of spiritual knowledge. There is a universal teaching about God’s Law and the laws of nature, and unless a government is based on these timeless, eternal principles, it simply is not sustainable. And it is just a matter of time before either internal factors or external factors will cause that system of government to collapse under its own weight.
Tünde: “Hungarians were considered an inferior people in Nazi ideology” Wrong. Don’t forget that Hitler was an Austrian who grew up with the idea that Hungarians are his countrymen. He loved Hungarians, Hungarian food, had great respect for Horthy who in turn repeatedly humiliated him. (Told him to carry his briefcase on one unbelievable occasion…) But Protestant Germans liked us too. Marika Rökk with her heavy Hungarian accent was the most popular female film star in Nazi Germany and Riefenstahl’s Jewish lover Herbert Bauer hid in plain sight by changing his name to Béla Balázs. Hungarian food and restaurants were more popular than French which is no surprise considering that the French were regarded with the contempt they deserve. I could go on but I don’t think anyone wants to hear this so let me just say that you’re right about Jobbik not having anything to do with national socialism. “I do not think there is such a thing as an European far-right” There is but they matter about as much as football hooligans who hail from the same social segment except they are often financed and promoted by the ‘main stream’ media to distract from certain issues
Malmömonster: “extremism (of a different kind) is a problem we face in Malmö too” You couldn’t be alluding to the Davis Cup protests since it was *against extremism (to use an understatement for genocide) So, what else is there? “Please understand I have no vested interest in portraying the story one way or another, I just want to be accurate” If you really meant that, God bless you! Please post a link to the article once it’s published.
Sophist, “is Magyarorszag the same as Hungary and is a Magyar a Hungarian: or might this be an equivocation of the sort that equates British with English” Messed up and often intentionally misleading terminology is one of the greatest evils of mankind… Hungaricus indeed ≠ Magyar: some of our first nations (the ’7 tribes’) even didn’t speak Magyar. With a few exceptions the Freemason revolutionaries executed at Arad didn’t know Magyar either. I mean not a freaking word! Nada! Not to mention the Rusyns, Slovaks and Croats, all of Croatia in fact was Hungary for most of our 1,000 year history. In many ways we’re just like the US (e pluribus unum) or the UK except our nationalities weren’t forced to become Magyars like the Cornish, Irish, Welsh, French, etc. were forced to become English. As for percentage, 40 or 50% Magyars is still more than double of the less than 20% WASP of America so why don’t we call the rest ‘not really American’ or French, Spanish, African, Scandinavian, Ashkenaz or German? &, we haven’t even mentioned the Indians. What percentage of the US populations are they?
@Tanarur who can’t spell tanár úr, “these people were expected to use Hungarian as their main language, to adopt Hungarian culture as their own” BS. Croatia was part of the Hungarian Kingdom for 800 years without adopting the Hungarian language and culture as its own. Our Parliament too was very much like the EP where every MP spoke or could speak and transact business in his own language… There are many other examples that contradict our conqueror’s ‘history’ that you spout here under your misspelled Hungarian nick “it would be nearly impossible to find a Hungarian who has the blood of Arpad undiluted” a. There was no ‘blood of Arpad’ out first nations were multiethnic tribes to begin with. b. Name one nation that has the blood and language of its founders ‘undiluted’
Tünde: “Viking: I did read you, ever so slowly, but still can’t make head or tails of what you are trying to say. Try a third language.” I suggest Lapp.
Pávaszem: Any sources for Hitler’s high opinion of Hungarians? Or how Horthy humiliated him, and not the other way round?
Maybe they did like Hungarian food better than French food (although in the 1930s Hungarian food was also much influenced by French cuisine in polgári families). I find it difficult to think this, or Marika Rökk (why does that name sound so German?) means anything re: Germans liking Hungarians though.
And I actually do think Jobbik is both nationalist and socialist, but national socialism means to most people Nazi, and calling the Jobbiks nazis is too extreme.
Pávaszem: Forgot to add, while I don’t think Jobbiks are nazis, it is difficult to explain the Magyar Gárda uniforms. I mean, either someone is very, very stupid in that party, or I can almost believe the nyilas followers that Jobbik has been infiltrated, a front, a creation of MSZP, whatever.
Tünde: “Any sources for Hitler’s high opinion of Hungarians?” *Well liked* by Germans in general and Hitler in particular for our perceived loyalty and endearing qualities ≠ high opinion although we were certainly respected for our perceived _courage. Just think of Emperor William’s Hun Speech (Hunnenrede, Bremerhaven, Juli 27, 1900: ‘Wie vor tausend Jahren die Hunnen unter ihrem König Etzel sich einen Namen gemacht, der sie noch jetzt in Überlieferung und Märchen gewaltig erscheinen läßt, so möge der Name Deutscher in China auf 1000 Jahre durch euch in einer Weise bestätigt werden, daß es niemals wieder ein Chinese wagt, einen Deutschen scheel anzusehen!’) Hitler also grew up with the idea that we are his countrymen. Great effort has been put into undermining our relationship with all Germans since then. At least as great an effort as turning the (other) nationalities of Austria-Hungary against us and us against them. It isn’t just English map making running us rugged to just survive. I mean not just us. All their victims, although they can’t even stage a coup in Iran any more. “Or how Horthy humiliated him, and not the other way round?” It’s almost impossible for us to appreciate how the ex corporal must have felt in the presence of the ex aide-de-camp to His Apostolic Majesty the Emperor. He was *awestruck!* http://bit.ly/F8fec I can almost hear Hitler click his heels and ‘bitten und melden gehorsam’
@Tünde, cont.: This in time had changed of course when Hitler could no longer ignore the evidence that Horthy sold his soul to the English long before he became Regent. (Or ‘which is how he became Regent.’) “Marika Rökk (why does that name sound so German?)” Not as German as Schmitt Pál or Schöpflin György. She was all Hungarian I assure you although most Hungarians know her less than Americans know Dean Reed http://www.deanreed.de/presse/pill20030114.html whose story also gives us a glimpse of how history is written or how and why it is not written “I find it difficult to think this… means anything re: Germans liking Hungarians though” A Hungarian actress with a distinct Hungarian accent http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbt7rcTAIvg playing Hungarians in every German film she makes /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marika_R%C3%B6kk is the Nazi Marilyn Monroe does in my humble opinion. It is ironically that still lingering sympathy that vermin like Esterházy or Kertész take advantage of and cash in on “calling the Jobbiks nazis is too extreme” They are populist plain and simple. Ill informed (just look at their Király Béla obituary. Don’t these people read? Such as Kubinyi’s Fekete Krónika?)
@Pávaszem/Visitor/…: So no, you can’t help Tünde out with her question, you don’t have any sources stating that case. How about part of Irvings defense showing that Hitler both wasn’t pleased with Horthy and didn’t trust him and the operations he was carrying out and that the orders were for removal and ‘extermination’ of Jews?
Would this help you Tünde?
http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/defense/evans/430hiiiB
Or were you just looking to complete your latest bedtime story with some other historic nonsense that the people here love to make up?
Losers
@Tünde, cont.: …and *well financed* populists. “it is difficult to explain the Magyar Gárda uniforms” It is even more difficult to explain how they paid for these uniforms & all other expenses. Bencsik is a hack whore but Csurka’s warnings really worry me. I can’t recall a single instance in which he was wrong. Being financed by the Russkies would also explain why the ‘Atlantist’ Fidesz won’t or isn’t allowed to form an alliance with them. I won’t be able to trust Jobbik until I know where their money comes from. Morvai says all the right things though… Let’s see what they actually do. “[homeland betrayer] has no concept of loyalty” Au contraire! His staunch, unshakable allegiance to the Zionist cause is unquestionable. Which makes me wonder where *his money comes from. He is also homosexual which also explains a lot.
Pávaszem: I am unconvinced. Hungarians are just too different from what Germans (used to) respect for Germans to think highly of the people. And look at the history of the svábs here.
Excellent photo, but I am afraid it doesn’t say much of their relationship. I was hoping for something more concrete. You are right, of course, about Horthy, but I think he was not a bad person, just not too bright. I am open to criticism on him, but I think he was mostly manipulated by the English-friendly circle around him. Not the first such kind of leader, not the last.
I tried to find a Jobbik Király Béla obituary after you wrote the above, but found only the short text on Barikád.hu, which they took from MNO. It was neutral. Is there another one?
Strong allegation about Vándorló. Yes that would explain much, but I will try not to sink to his level and throw labels I cannot prove. I will stick to the labels he proves for himself, they are bad enough.
@Tünde and Pávaszem: Just for clarity, to answer the points you raise:
1. “…where *his money comes from.” I earn it with computing, programming, design, translations… Nothing to do with the issues raised here, though I have, in the past, transcribed verified labour camp and holocaust survivors audio interviews as part of a linguistic research program.
2. “He is also homosexual…” Is that in any way related to any of the issues raised? My sexual orientation is the basis of your argument? Is that the best you can do? You people are desperate.
And Tünde, let me get this right, these two unfounded flippant remarks made by your Nazi compatriot in arms count as “strong allegations” to you? Of what? What on earth is their relevance?
How about reading Irving’s trial documents and coming back when you feel up to it.
Just for the record I am a trisexual Uyghur who believes in Tengriism though half-muslim, too. I worship the eternal blue sky, just like your ancestors did before they sold out to the West and christianity. Hazaárulók, Hazaárulók, Hazaárulók…
Vándorló: Unlike you, I do make the effort try to debate people, even when they are dishonest, like you. I looked at the link, I thought maybe for once you had information that was useful. I was wrong
I didn’t need David Irving to tell me that Hitler was not pleased at Horthy for not moving the Jews out, but how that explains his or the Germans views on Hungarians is beyond me.
Your post to Pávaszem for his labels of you is rich after the total lies or unproven allegations you spread about posters on these sites. As I wrote, I do not know any of that to be true about you. I will stick to psychopath, because that is obvious.
Pávaszem:‘I won’t be able to trust Jobbik until I know where their money comes from’. Would it really bother you if it were to turn out that Jobbik is financed by Putin? I put it to you that nobody else is likely to, for fear of the ‘right wing’ branding that is being slapped about recklessly everywhere there are Anglophone media outlet.
On the Horthy-Hitler relationship: certainly a curious one. Horthy makes no secret in his Memoirs of his contempt for the corporal, even boasting in detail about how he had sorted out Hitler during their one-to-one meeting (on Horthy’s insistence, without the protocol-stipulated interpreter), then stormed out in high dudgeon, with Hitler running after him to appease. Hitler, on the other hand, never ceased to court the old warrior (the gift of the sea-faring vessel, etc.). In the end, Hitler evacuated him, when he could have left him in the teeth of the Red Army – and that despite his full awareness that Horthy and Kallay were courting the English as early as 1942, and despite the Mickey Mouse incident. And Mickey did not get the promised kugel at Mauthaussen, despite the fact that his dad the deposed Regent had declared the armistice that (should have) obliged the Hungarian army to declare war on Germany. One cannot but wonder what moved Hitler to this level of chivalry.
Sophie, from your comment it would appear that you’ve at least come across Horthy’s memoirs, which is why I find it baffling that you believe Hitler “evacuated” Horthy. Horthy himself and historians of all stripes (save for Nazi sympathizers) are all in agreement that Horthy was arrested and kidnapped by the the Nazis, like his son before him. I seriously wonder where you find your misinformation…
@Pavaszem,
The only tripe of yours that I find even slightly worthy of a response is your childish assault on the “misspelling” of my nickname. Not every laptop created outside of Hungary is capable of producing Hungarian characters, genius. As for the rest, I find nothing worth responding to, as it is apparant you have no ability to penetrate a logical, educated argument. Perhaps you can understand my feelings as expressed forthwith, even without the Hungarian characters…segfej.
You misspelled “seggfej”. You’re out.
You are correct, Anonymous spell checker. My apologies for typing too fast and not proof reading my posts. I will seek to do better in future.
Zoltan, I’m sorry, I missed your post. You rightly refer to Hitler’s having kidnapped Horthy. But that was a few months earlier in the piece. Horthy returned to Hungary once Hitler let him. Then, in the 11th hour before the Red Army struck, Hitler provided the by-the-abdicated and armistice-committed Horthy with a private train for his escape from Hungary, together with others whom Horthy selected. Horthy describes this episode in detail in Emlékirataim. (I do not think you will find any ‘Nazi sympathisers’ claiming otherwise. But perhaps you might read Emlékirataim yourself. There is an English translation.)
@Sophie: “Would it really bother you if it were to turn out that Jobbik is financed by Putin? …nobody else is likely to” I know but it’s still risky business. Underestimating the Russkies is at least as big a mistake as chasing the Huns was when they started to ‘flee.’ Although in theory a Fidesz-Jobbik coalition would be ideal in the sense that they would have an almost guaranteed parliamentary majority domestically while Fidesz would work one evil empire internationally and Jobbik the other until they hopefully devour one another like Karinthy’s two wolves. A very risky high wire act even with saints for politicians which our compadritos are certainly not. “Horthy’s insistence, without the protocol-stipulated interpreter” I wonder how much he would even have understood from the Hungarian. His first language was German that he switched to as soon as and whenever he could. He wrote his memoirs (Ein Leben für Ungarn) in German which is OK by me but still, how Magyar was he? “One cannot but wonder what moved Hitler to this level of chivalry” Good question. Another good question is why Stalin personally defended him at Nuremberg. Or why his Israelite sponsors kept him in the lap of luxury until he died. There is a lot ‘our’ faithful historians don’t tell us about him (either) to be fair, often because they don’t even know.
@Tünde: “Hungarians are just too different from what Germans (used to) respect for Germans to think highly of the people” Germans are not what they seem… And, they are certainly not what they are said to be like. If you can even speak of Germans. They are almost as diverse as the Chinese. Let me also repeat that to think highly of someone is not the same as liking someone. We were/are seen by Germans as hotheaded ( Paprika im Blut
and unreliable but they LIKE(d) us for our perceived courage and other endearing qualities such as loyalty anyway. Our relationship with Germans has been almost completely undermined by you know who. With the Slovaks ditto. All our ex countrymen really but special attention has been and still is paid to Germans since we shared power with them. “look at the history of the svábs here” Such as Puskás Öcsi or all other Swabs for whom Hungary was the Heimat? Why pick on them? How about the Franks or Saxons who were much more isolated and less integrated in Hungary. They all resent the deportations of course. Wouldn’t you?
@Tünde (cont.): “I was hoping for something more concrete” More concrete is hard to find in Oceania… I know what I told you from emigrant publications and relatives who would have known. “Horthy… was not a bad person, just not too bright” He was not what he now seems either. He was a ‘gentleman’ in the Straussian http://bit.ly/3IHduv sense, our Quisling when we became like Argentina part of the UK’s informal empire. Such discriminating customers as Hitler, Stalin and the Ashkenazim bought him as well and ‘not too bright’ I am sure is not what they were buying. “Jobbik Király Béla obituary… neutral” And neutral just won’t cut it when it comes to Király. He was a villain, a lot like Horthy and several notches below Dálnoki. He must be in hell by now… “Is there another one?” You bet http://bit.ly/2YPd8o
homelandBetrayer: “I earn it with computing, programming, design, translations… ” Luring, like a Judas goat, investors from the UK and Ireland into the clutches of the Israeli real estate mafia or programming for Hit gyülekezete perhaps? “Is that in any way related to any of the issues raised?” It’s related to your attitude and mindset. Sucks when someone does it to you, doesn’t it? “Nazi compatriot” We’re not playing a video game, dipshit. *There are no Nazis or Huns or knights in shining armor!* Wake up already. “How about reading Irving’s trial documents” Your link confirms your devotion to Zionism for sure. What else is new? “I am a trisexual Uyghur who believes in Tengriism” No shit. So, what’s so wrong with your own heritage, why do you so desperately try to escape it? Or is there something wrong with you?
‘Tanár úr:’ “Not every laptop created outside of Hungary is capable of producing Hungarian characters, genius” No shit Sherlock. Have you heard of Alt codes? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt_code the insert symbol command or character maps? “I find nothing worth responding to” Pity. I was expecting a tirade about Croatians speaking Hungarian behind our backs. “segfej.” Analfabéta barom.
I don’t know why everyone thinks Vándorló is Jewish. I don’t. He isn’t that smart. And I have never met a Jew with reading comprehension, or a retarded one. Maybe Jews kill the retarded ones. Hungarians used too.
He wrote he is part Irish. That is hard to believe. I think he is simply non human.
Pávaszem, you have your finger on the quick of it with this: ‘Another good question is why Stalin personally defended him at Nuremberg. Or why his Israelite sponsors kept him in the lap of luxury until he died’. Just two further things: (i) It has proved impossible to dig out of the Nurnberg archives what Horthy actually said there when he was called out as a witness, and (ii) had 400,000 – 600,000 Jews been sent to Auschwitz, or even one, Horthy would certainly have been called out at Nurnberg as a war criminal. And he was not.
Jobbik and the Russians: I am mostly at one with you. But need any ‘high wire act’ be consequent upon Rusky funding of Jobbik (if indeed it is there)? Remember that Schröder plunged into the Gazprom thing with Putin immediately he was voted out of office. The media have turned away from this, after the initial shock. Long shot, I know, but I smell the possibility of Rothschild-opposition there. I suspect that Hungary could benefit from being party to it.
@Sophie: Citing Horthy’s name in relation to the mass deportations and Holocaust is a red-herring and well you know it.
Anyway, by then (after March 19th 1944) the prime minister was Döme Sztójay, placed by Edmund Veesenmayer and he had no qualms about fulfilling Hitler’s plan for the Jews – with the help of the unholy trinity Endre László, Baky László and Jaross Andor (who were all subsequently tried and executed for their crimes).
@Vandorlo Executed by the Jewish Athiest Mátyás Rákosi, he participated in the communist government of Béla Kun.
@Chronicles…um, Jewish Atheist? Isn’t that an oxymoron? For that matter, if i get you a map, can you point out the country called Jew? As far as I know, and yes, I could be wrong, isn’t Judaism a religion, NOT an ethnicity? For example, I’m an ethnic Russian, born in America, I’m not a jew. I wouldn’t classify you as a papist when describing you. So, yeah, remember class, Jewish = Religion not ethnicity/nationality. Oh, and we’ll be having a spot quiz on this later, so don’t forget to study!
Russian funding?–We wish that was true!would solve our cash situation overnight.
Pávaszem: Puskás Öcsi?! Oh please. Puskás is a disease in Hungarians. “Öcsi” left his “Heimat” of Hungary the first chance he got! And why? Because he was being persecuted? Nooo, he was living like a king here. And he and the other arany csapat members bought up goods abroad, and sold them on the black market at home. And with his ÁVH rank! It is called üzérkedés. And it gave many people special places at work camps.
And where did the man go from his “beloved Heimat”? To work in other dictatorships! Never did a thing for Hungary, until he ran out of money and came “home”. Then he had to. And the Hungarian taxpayer paid for the rest of his expensive medical care in former party hospital. Great footballer maybe, but he was a dumb, selfish sváb.
The “right wing” knows how to pick some stupid heroes.
And I know all about Király Béla, I thought you meant Barikád had something else. http://www.fusz.hu/index.php?op=full&q=8260, http://www.nepszava.com/index.php?topic=4519&page=3941). Crafty old traitor. Should have been hanged.
Pávaszem cont. I also have relatives in Germany. True, they went there in 1956, not in the period you write about, but still. Yes Germans might have liked Hungarians, but it is my experience that ethnic Germans like the French, really think themselves superiour. And you cannot blame them, because in many ways, both peoples are (were). My relatives are very successful, in several fields. One made a lot of money, but I do not think they were ever really accepted there (they are Hungarians, not ethnic Germans). Funny thing, my cousins born there think they are superiour.
Yes they resented the deportations. And we now know that to be a tragedy. And yes it was the communists, (und die “antideutschen”) who did that to them. But there were Jews (Füst Milán, Heltai Jenő) who protested on their side and there were many Hungarians who thought and said “egy batyuval…” And what about the experiences of the vajdasági magyar gastarbeiteren in Germany?
Re: Slovaks. The damage to our relationship with them is one of the most tragic things in Hungarian history. I agree that “you know who”, the communists, who were Jews, helped damage the relationship, but that it really Masaryk and Benes, as non-Jew as you can get, who did the real damage. Also Hungarians did their part. Mi a “magyar óra” a Felvidéken? The “magyar óra” is what slovaks called a hour working for Hungarians, because it was longer and harder.
Ricsi: ‘Russian funding?–We wish that was true!would solve our cash situation overnight’. Tell me, do you completely discount the possibility? I cannot but wonder who else might be providing it. Do you have a theory?
Pavaszem,
For some strange reason, everything you say to refute my thesis actually supports it. Maybe you just don’t understand what I am saying. I say that to be counted as a “Hungarian” traditionally has meant that you spoke the Hungarian language as your first language. You turn around and point out that there were many people living within the borders of the Kingdom of Hungary who spoke Croatian. This supports my original point, since those people who spoke Croatian were not counted as Hungarians, but as…Croatians! Likewise, there were many people who spoke Romanian, Slovakian, Ruthenian, Serbian, German, etc. They were also not counted as “Hungarian”, but as Romanian, etc. My point is that Hungarian identification was primarily linguistic and cultural, not specifically racial or ethnic. Therefore, if a family that was originally from Croatia and spoke Croatian decided to use Hungarian as their first language, they would become Hungarian, at least as far as official census figures are concerned. So now please tell me that I am an idiot for pointing out that Hungary was traditionally a multi-ethnic polity in which language was the primary cultural identifier by pointing out that there were a lot of different groups of people living in Hungary who used their own language. And throw in a couple of ugly words, just to make it interesting. I do appreciate the link though, although I think I will retain my “misspelled” nick, just because I am that kind of guy.
@Tanarur: You have to face the fact that your nom-de-plume marks you out as a clear subversive. Only Catholic Cardinals like Paskai László normally use ‘Tanár’ as their cover name (fedőnév) for their spying duties [see, Ungváry Krisztián: Mozgástér és kényszerpályák (Ecsetvonások egy egyházfő életrajzához), Élet és Irodalom, 50 évf/5. Or for a wider discussion: http://www.origo.hu/itthon/20060202esugynok.html and http://www.es.hu/index.php?view=doc;12791 ]
So who are you working for?
On the ‘nation/state/country/nationality/ethinicity/diaspora etc… question there is a fairly gently discussion of this at the start of ‘A Honfoglaló Magyar Nép’ by Róna-Tas András that is pretty much in line with the idea that ‘nation’ is defined by language and culture. I’d also say that Hungary’s current implementation and bias in immigration policy fully supports that view. Immigrants who are Hungarian language speakers (of Hungarian ethnicity, not just smart arse foreigners) are given a radically different treatment and speedier processing.
The language barrier is then used to reinforce the immigration difficulties of other immigrants by having the money given by the EU for this purpose (language and cultural classes) disappear into administrative pockets (I’d be happy to provide a reference for that last assertion, once the article in question has been published by someone I’ve worked with).
Tanarur and Vándorló: It seems to me that you are both on an impossible quest to narrow down what made a person a Hungarian, especially when that concept is referred back to the Monarhia. Recall that Szécsényi himself LEARNT Hungarian, even as he was lifting the language out of abandonment to the humblest levels of society. Latin would have been replaced by German as the public service language in Hungary, but for Szécsényi, because no-one ‘who mattered’ spoke Hungarian. The identifiable tension (settled only after 1848) in the Monarhia was between the royalists and the anti-royalists. And that was not nations-based, nor even class based. Just one example: Count Radvánsky and his entire family of anti-royalists fled to the West to escape Hapsburg persecution after one of the failed early 18th century uprisings of the anti-royalists. And given that the Radvánsky family was titled – Hungarian nobility was not – there was a change of heart here with regard to the Habsburgs. But this family certainly did not speak Hungarian.
(cont.) All sorts of other notable things impinge, such as Petőfi the anti-royalist (either a Serb or Croat, going by his family name, Petrovič or Petrović), who cannot but be counted as a Hungarian, and the royalist Serbian Bunjevac, Maria Terezia’s people (to date living in Bácska, and still tri-lingual: Serbian, German, Hungarian), who certainly cannot and could not be counted as Hungarians. For some reason, and I cannot find a satisfactory explanation for it, the anti-royalist Croats gathered around the Hungarian focal-point of anti-royalists. Somehow then, ‘the Hungarian’ was identifiable. I suspect that identification was territorial and ancestral-property-based rather than linguistic, at least until ‘the Hungarian’ learnt to speak Hungarian. But then, of course, the Hungarian royalists were on the same geographic territory. That forces us back onto units of individuals, noble families on Hungarian soil and their sympathisers, and how they divided on the Habsburg issue. It is just possible that the anti-royalists were quicker and keener to learn Hungarian than were the royalists, so language began to play an identifying role, in the fullness of time. But ‘the Hungarian’ was around before the language.
@Tünde: “I don’t know why everyone thinks Vándorló is Jewish” Because some of us confuse ‘Jewish,’ a misnomer in itself, with Zionist which is not necessarily ‘Jewish.’ I don’t know if he is Sephard, Ashkenaz, somewhat Sephard or Ashekenaz, has a Sephard or Ashkenaz lover prefers the carrot to the stick, knows which side his bread is buttered on or if he is just completely brainwashed like subjects, especially defeated subjects, of empires usually are. I am just sure that he is a *Zionist* in whatever mutation including the Viking, Hit gyülekezete or Stefan Bos kind which is BTW as low as you can get. “He isn’t that smart” ‘Smart Jew’ is about as plausible as Shoa biz hype if you ask me… “or a retarded one” You just care so little about ‘race’ (how Hungarian!
that you don’t bother to recognize who half the morons on Erik’s boards are: JD, C’est Mois, etc. I mean: how retarded can you get? “I think he is simply non human” Which is the point we agree on. I haven’t detected any human qualities in him either. *None* whatsoever… 
“Puskás is a disease in Hungarians… dumb, selfish sváb” OK, I missed that and I should have known. Fine. He was a cunning Swab peasant who became a bona fide scumbag in those wonderful Soviet times (administered by whom?) Would you say he was not Hungarian though? Or that Swabs ran the ÁVO? (Who ran the ÁVO again?)
@Tünde, continued: My point is that the Swabs ‘assimilated’ i. e. Hungarians don’t think of them as not Hungarian as opposed to some other nationalities. “The right wing knows how to pick some stupid heroes” Would you say the Sauschwabe was only popular with ‘right wing’ (whatever that means…) Hungarians? “Király Béla” Your second link http://www.nepszava.com/index.php?topic=4519&page=3941 kind of surprised me.’Amerikai Magyar Népszava Szabadság’s’ business address (250 W 57th St. # 732, Manhattan, Fisk Building?) seems to be the same as George Maiman CPA’s: ex president of the World Federation of Hungarian Jews. Son Joseph is a Soros ‘associate’ (Joseph Maiman, George Soros, & The Peruvian Sol http://educate-yourself.org/rfp/reportsperusorosfinancedriots7may01.shtml ) Wow! Why wouldn’t _they like Király? And why does Barikád.hu (read Jobbik) not even know who Király was? “I also have relatives in Germany” When I spoke of German attitudes toward Hungarians, I meant my own experiences. Re. Horthy/Hitler I meant the family grapevine by relatives that served in the War Ministry in the 1930′s and 40′s and emigrant literature by similar people including the memoirs of an ex wire tap officer during the war who later became the head of the Taiwan national library.
@Tünde, cont.: “My relatives are very successful, in several fields. One made a lot of money” They wouldn’t have made a lot of money in the UK or France (assuming that they are not ‘Jewish’) I assure you. “but I do not think they were ever really accepted there (they are Hungarians, not ethnic Germans)” Like the Swabs were accepted… Or a Saxon is accepted in Prussia or a ‘Pifke’ in Austria where BTW (most) Hungarians are totally accepted. Only the Italians are more fractured and regional than the ‘Germans.’ I don’t even know why Plattdeutsch is German and not Dutch. And again, the German Hungarian relationship has been and is methodically undermined. We are supposed to consider the Allies that ruined our nation our Lebensraum and are still busily destroying and exploiting us our friends, Liberators and saviors and if we even think of our ex allies and our ex countrymen we should only think ill of them and hate them. Compare the Austrian War minister Darabos’ reputation in Hungary (noone has even heard of him) with Sarkozy’s (még csapból is ő folyik) as an example.
@Tünde, more: There is also a German ex pat community in Hungary that is at least as large as the Anglo but *very different from them. Most Anglos came here because they couldn’t get a job back home or wouldn’t have the opportunities that they have here while most Germans move to Hungary for idealistic reasons, to escape the ‘impersonal’ societies of the occupied German lands, to live a simpler life, etc. They also prefer the countryside to Budapest and unlike the Anglos interact and form friendships with the ‘natives’ http://www.magyarhirlap.hu/cikk.php?cikk=157104 “Yes they resented the deportations. And we now know that to be a tragedy” We do but does theWhoreOfIsrael™ know? &, would he care even if he knew? He doesn’t care about the Dresden holocaust that he feels compelled to minimalize. He doesn’t care what happened in the German concentration camps under Allied management after the war or the Gulag or the Anglo death camps. He doesn’t care what happened to Hungarian Leventes, 14-16 year old kids, in the infamous French slave camps. And he doesn’t care about the current ongoing tragedies in the Middle East: the Jenin and Gaza death camps, Iraq, Dresden type crimes against humanity in Lebanon, the Palestinian Ghetto(s).
@Tünde, continued: To the homelandBetrayers™ only the Israelites matter and whatever is done to Huns or sand niggers is fine. “But there were Jews (Füst Milán, Heltai Jenő) who protested on their side and there were many Hungarians who thought and said ‘egy batyuval…” Herzl’s cousin may have had the privilege to ‘protest’ and survive. Magyars were scared to even think anything that didn’t please the apparat (and who ran the apparat?) In those days people were sent to concentration camps such as Dunapentele, Kistarcsa, Recsk or straight to the Gulag for not clapping when Rákosi’s name was mentioned. “And what about the experiences of the vajdasági magyar gastarbeiteren in Germany?” They accumulated wealth in Germany they could never have accumulated in Délvidék? “Slovaks… Masaryk and Benes.. Also Hungarians did their part” Let’s not forget Erik’s blogs that never miss a chance, hogy keverjék a féceszt either… (Na ezt jól megaszondtam.)
@Sophie: “400,000 – 600,000 Jews been sent to Auschwitz” We actually *don’t know* how many people including Israelites were sent to the labor camps that serviced the Galician artificial rubber and gasoline factories. According to the Todebücher that the Russkies released in 1990 from KGB archives (only to be quickly locked up again at the International Red Cross, another organization that is not what it seems) there were less than 2,000 inmates executed in these camps, there were a little more than 4,000 natural deaths. All other deaths (103,429) were due to typhus and most of the victims, over 70%, were Poles. I wonder how conditions at the Oświęcim labor colonies compared to conditions on the Russian front or the infamous Dieppe labor camp http://mek.niif.hu/02200/02237/html/f04.htm where there were no buildings to flip the birdie at since we were housed in holes in the ground. Shoa business fantasies also include forced human medical experiments at Auschwitz when Hitler didn’t even allow animal experiments. Typically, a Hungarian Jewish couple hid Mengele for decades putting up with his increasingly paranoid shenanigans before he died. These were people Mengele allegedly ‘experimented on.’ “Jobbik and the Russians… Long shot, I know, but I smell the possibility of Rothschild-opposition there. I suspect that Hungary could benefit from being party to it” You just lost me, please explain.
@theWhoreOfIsrael™: “after March 19th 1944… [we] had no qualms about fulfilling Hitler’s plan for the Jews” The time frame for your pornographic fairy tales would have been as follows: Unternehmen Eisenfaust, October 1944. Szálasi, takes over on October 15 but the Red Army’s already in Hungary since September. Hungary is in fact encircled, bombed out and destitute. Which doesn’t stop us from ‘fulfilling Hitler’s plan for the Jews’ and send 600,000 people in 6 weeks over non-existent railroad tracks to the ‘gas chambers’ in an evacuated labor camp… Wow! What a miracle. “Endre László, Baky László and Jaross Andor… were all subsequently tried and executed” They were actually *murdered* in Stalinist show trials conducted by Ashkenaz henchmen.
@Will G: “can you point out the country called Jew?” Can you point to a land called Gypsy? “I’m an ethnic Russian, born in America, I’m not a jew” May I ask where in America you were born? (Not Brighton Beach obviously…
@Pávaszem: Try to concentrate. You’re spouting crap again.
You said: “The time frame for your pornographic fairy tales would have been as follows: Unternehmen Eisenfaust, October 1944…”
I said: “12,000 deportees a day from 15th May – 9th July 1944.” (http://www.politics.hu/20090623/greetings-from-auschwitz-you-peabrained-holocaustdenying-aholes )
May-June, not pissing October, shit for brains. Concentrate.
Tanarur,
Other than disagreeing with pretty much everything you have managed to amass in your columns here, please do everyone a large favor…spell at least the most widely used Hungarian adjective properly…SEGGFEJ !
Double G Tanarur.
Now you may go back and attend class.
Vandorlo,
Shit for brains you said?
I’ll take you seriously when you indulge yourself just as studiously and enthusiastically with regards to the hundreds of thousands of innocent Hungarians deported to the jewish soviet union.
Obviously such inconvenient occurances don’t shade your delicate blinkers do they?
Have you ever considered migrating to Israel?
Shit for brains and bravery right?
beju,
You are a bit late with the spell check, that subject was covered several days ago. As for the rest, you may agree or not, it makes no difference to me. I was simply stating facts, I didn’t think that anything I said was controversial. I suppose to paraphrase a great man of the recent past, one may choose to affirm or deny the truth, but that doesn’t alter the truth as it is. Since you have said you disagree with everything I have put forth, it is difficult to know whether you dispute the facts, (which, being facts, would make you a denizen of an alternate universe and impervious to reason as practiced by those of us who reside on this present earth) or whether you disagree with my conclusions derived from those facts. If that is the case, then you may have your opinion and be happy with it. I would point out that the great majority of historians, both Hungarian and otherwise, would support my conclusion, but it is possible we are all wrong.
Tanarur,
I apologize for my tardiness your Lordship with regards to your impeccable spelling. Will never happen I promise. As for the content you either have no idea of what you’re blabbering about with regards to Jobbik, or try to find precedent as a historian as to where to place them on the scale of affiliations and political rainbow.
What if Jobbik does not fit your preconceived notions and is simply a Hungarian revisionist party? Where would you fit that one in?
A party that stands up for the unjust Trianon treaty and its long-lasting consequencies. Now what would you describe a party as such your Lordship? May I ask delicately?
beju,
First, you should save sarcasim for professionals, you don’t do it very well. Second, I have never made any pronouncements about Jobbik or any other political party. I believe the closest I have ever come was to note that their economic programs seem to be more statist and left than “right wing”, so I took the Swedish journalist who made the original post to task over his casual use of pre-packaged terms. I have never put forth any judgement on Jobbik as a political party/movement, either pro or con. I have no pre-conceived notions about Jobbik, and I challenge you to show me where I have ever made any remarks of any kind about Jobbik, or any other political party. The so-called journalist who made the original post was interested in what was meant by the term “Hungary for Hungarians” and exactly who was a “Hungarian” and who wasn’t. After disclaiming any idea of what Jobbik means by the term, or having any opinion on Jobbik or any other political party, I undertook to explain what has been meant by the term “Hungarian” from a traditional/historical perspective, which is something I do have some experience in. So, having never mentioned Jobbik or offering an opinion on them, I find it bizarre that you would accuse me of somehow blabbering on about Jobbik and somehow defaming them. The only time I have ever mentioned Trianon in any way was to point out to a person who demanded that the USA apologize for the treaty that the USA was not a signator to it.
All right you Lordship,
What do you say if I confront you with the contention, -not sarcasm since I’m out on that front as per your explicit ruling, being aware of your completely neutral stance on Jobbik- that this party has nothing to with left or right, pragmatic or populist, only Hungarian at its core?
And your Judgship,
Sorry I got interrupted and have to continue on this next page.
As a historian who studied Hungarian history you came to a series of conclusions and actually found out that the US Congress never ratified the Trianon treaty.
Kudos for you.
That’s why we pay historians to research and if warranted acknowledge historical facts and if possible disseminate them to the wider public isn’t that right?
Now that you have carefully immersed yourself into something you didn’t know anything about before, with the exception of the fact the US never ratified the particular treaty, in my mind you are a historian to be when it comes to Hungary.
beju,
I beg you to believe me when I say I really have no interest in Jobbik or any other contemporary political party in Hungary, or any where else for that matter. I recognize that for you and others it is apparantly a vital and central focal point in your lives, and I don’t say that in any sort of sarcastic way at all. But I suppose we all have our own interests and areas of expertise, and we need to recognize that not everyone else shares our passions and interests. My own view is that political parties and movements of any kind are not the solutions to the problems we face. I say this from an historical viewpoint, not just as it pertains to the present situation. I also reject the easy use and abuse of political labels such as left and right, or fascist or nationalist, especially as used by the intellectually challenged useful idiots of the media. Personally, I would love to see a cultural, intellectual and moral regeneration of Hungarian society, but I do not see that a political movement is needed or even desired to achieve that effect. My primary problem with political parties and movements is that they are inevitibly run by politicians, the best of whom are flawed human beings, and the worst megalomaniacal tyrants. Again, a general observation, and not meant as a reflection on any current politician of any party. I recognize that this doesn’t really answer your question directly, but it is what it is.
BTW,
Thanks for the kudos, but it is a generally known fact that the USA was not a signatory to Trianon (or Versailles or St. Germain for that matter). So it was not some prodigious feat of scholarly investigation that allowed me that bit of knowledge, but merely paying attention in secondary school history lessons. Somewhat lesser known is the fact that when the Romanian army was rampaging through Budapest in 1919, stealing everything that wasn’t nailed down (and a lot of stuff that was) the head of the US military legation to Hungary placed the National Museum under the seal and protection of the US government, thereby preventing its’ looting by the Romanian troops. So, how do you like me now?
The USA should have stayed out of Europe’s wars.
They did a lot of damage and looting, especially in Germany in WWII.
Tanár úr,
“The only time I have ever mentioned Trianon in any way was to point out to a person who demanded that the USA apologize for the treaty that the USA was not a signator to it”
The USA may not have signed the treaty, but that does not mean it wasn’t responsible for its terms:
“As one of his Fourteen Points, U.S. President Woodrow Wilson demanded that the nationalities of the [Austro-Hungarian]empire have “freest opportunity to autonomous development.” In response, Karl I agreed to reconvene the Imperial parliament and allow for the creation of a confederation with each national group exercising self-governance. However, the latter no longer trusted Vienna, and were now dead set on independence.”
Henry Cabot Lodge who led the opposition to the treaty was more interested to stopping the US becoming a member of the League of Nations, than in preserving the territorial integrity of the Lands of the Crown of St. Stephen.
Maybe the US needs to apologise just as much as those that signed it.
Source: Wikipedia
@Wilson: I believe you are correct, especially in regards to the First World War. Although I would disagree with your assesment of the amount of looting and pillaging done by US troops in the Second. War is an inherently viscious buisness, but German and Soviet troops certainly were far and away responsible for much more looting and pillaging than US troops were. I would also say that perhaps it were better if Hungary had stayed out of both world wars, I think both Hungary and Europe would have been better off.
@Sophist: First, Wikipedia is not regarded as a source worthy of academic citations. Second, it seems absurd to demand that a country that refused to sign a treaty that it regarded as unjust be made to apologize for said treaty, regardless of whether Woodrow Wilson was a self-righteous prig who made a lot of stupid pronouncements or not. As you are aware, Hungary was a signator to the treaty, so why not focus on the fact that the Hungarian state should apologize to all those Hungarians who were/are abandoned to unfriendly foriegn powers? In either case, it seems ridiculous as the people responsible are all long dead. Should you apologize for something that your great-grandfather did to my great-grandfather? It may give me some sense of justification, but it doesn’t change the situation that we live in at present one bit. Until the invention of a time travel machine, we all have to deal with the world that our forefathers left us as best we can.
Tanár Úr,
“Should you apologize for something that your great-grandfather did to my great-grandfather?”
My point was not who should or should not apologize, just that the non-signatory status of the US doesn’t lessen its responsibility for Trianon. Wilson had more enthisiasm for self-determination than the European players, who had their own minorities/colonies to deal with.
“Wikipedia is not regarded as a source worthy of academic citations”
True, but that is a bit rich coming from someone who wrote: “I do not have all my source material at hand to cite specific works and authors, I just have the knowledge as one who has studied the history of Hungary, and having made the study and teaching of history my life’s work.”.
The real questions are do you disagree with my analysis of America’s responsibility for Trianon? And if so, why?
Tanarur,
You are a true idealist. You’re saying Hungary should have stayed out of both world wars.
Let me direct your attention to some vital details why what you’re proposing is naivete.
Before Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia, the only opposing voice within the war cabinet was that of Hungarian Prime Minister Tisza Istvan.
Hungary had no choice then as she didn’t during the second.
As a historian I’m surprised of your lack of sight.
Hungary had stayed out of the second war until 1942, by what time all of Europe was aflame. Polish refugees were allowed and accepted into the country, Hungary withstood Hitler’s pressures to join the war effort. Prime Minister Teleki committed suicide when Hitler overran Yugoslavia.
The position of Hungary was not enviable. On the one hand she had the mortal jewish bolshevik menace on the east, on the other Hitler’s ilk on the west. It was a matter of choosing one evil over the other dear Tanarur.
And the decision however heartwrenching it must have been for Horthy, went for the Germans.
He made the right decision even in hindsight, seeing what jewish bolshevism has meant for our country for the next 50 years.
Now how
And dear Tanarur,
Some additional history lesson for your understanding of the perilous situation of Hungary was before WWII. The newly created artificial countries of Czechoslovakia and Romania at the expense of the 1000 year old Hungarian Kingdom already aligned themselves with Hitler fearing Hungarian revisionist efforts. Hitler knew that and played out the belligerent players of the region expertly. He knew Hungary wanted her territories back after the unjust Trianon treaty and blackmailed the Hungarian leadership by offering his support to that end. He also courted the Romanian and Czechoslovak, rather Slovak nationalists for support in his eastern campaign. Romania and Slovakia promised and provided troops before Hungary did.
So simply put, your nonchalant flip that Hungary should have stayed out of the wars proves one thing and one only.
Your complete ignorance and lack of history Sir.
beju,
Wow. You are right. In the face of your reasoned, logical presentation, I must confess my unworthyness to inhabit the same sphere of argument as your immense intellect. I hearby withdraw my participation from this subject. I will devote my time in future to the more rewarding task of counting grains of sand on the beach. The prohibition of casting pearls before swine comes to mind…
One back at you Tanarur!
“save sarcasm to professionals”
Counting pearls in sand dunes away from pork may do you well in your next tenure.
Pávaszem: This topic is getting very off, but: „You just care so little about ‘race’ (how Hungarian!
that you don’t bother to recognize who half the morons on Erik’s boards are: JD, C’est Mois, etc.”
Of course I noticed JD and Cestmoi kedves Pávaszem. I have complained about them. Are they retarded, or just playing retarded? Yes I recognise the style and tactic. And look what is happening to Sophie. Worse though, is that Erik lets this go on. This is the most pathetically moderated forum I have seen.
Yes I know not all Zionists are Jews, but Vándorló was being called a Jew, and that is no argument. He writes enough insane stuff to argue against him. People are misusing the term Zionist as well. Szálasi was a Zionist, Soros is not, but that is not how they use it.
„My point is that the Swabs ‘assimilated’ i. e. Hungarians don’t think of them as not Hungarian as opposed to some other nationalities.” Well not now. But before the war they did. Igen, sokan elmagyarosodtak, és sok nagyszerű magyar is lett belőlük: Hóman Bálint, Klebelsburg stb., de a háború előtt a népiek (Illyés, Erdei, Kovács, Szabó) nem voltak oda a németekért. És vajon miért? Mert mégiscsak kis és nagy kapitalisták voltak. Átvették a kis és nagy ipart nem csak itt, hanem mindenütt a Kárpát medencében. És egész Tolna megye nem beszélt magyarul egészen a háborúig. Addig annyira azért nem asszimilálódtak.
Pávaszem: Yes Erik stirs up the shit. That is the kind of thing he does, as he preaches „forget the past” „we can all live together”. While Erik is off visiting Auschwitz again and Vándorló is volunteering his services for the Shoah do they know or care about the suffering of Hungarians or the sand niggers, as you say? Now we all know the answer to that.
“The right wing knows how to pick some stupid heroes” Would you say the Sauschwabe was only popular with ‘right wing’ (whatever that means…). Sauschwabe meaning Puskás? Puskás has been claimed by the nemzeti oldal, but ok, I agree, he is popular with any Hungarian with testicles. Stupid choice for a hero.
Délvidéki magyarok. Jól kerestek, na és? Akkor is csak másodrangú munkások voltak a németek szemében.
Elolvastam a MH cikket. Az is benne volt, hogy „Ezernél is több tanya van itt a környéken, soknak külföldi a tulajdonosa. A németeknek saját társaságuk is van.” Ezzel együtt elismerem, hogy az angolok százszor rosszabbak, mert csak akkor érdekli őket a magyar vidék, amikor fel akarják vásárolni azt: http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/docarchive/all Farm Swap – part two: British farmer working vast landholdings in Hungary and Serbia (vagyis a délvidék). És van neki egy Rita nevű magyar kurvája/felesége. Ezen a farmon a magyarok a munkások, az angolok a menedszerek.
Király Béla temetése jövőhéten lesz. A 301-es parcellában fogják eltemetni. Csak itt Magyarorsztánban.
Sophist: The US responsible for Trianon? They should apologise for getting involved in wars they had no business to, but what came after was not America’s fault, and Wilson’s 14 points originally did not mean dissolution of the Monarchy. Later it was precisely that point to which Hungary appealed in her pleas for defense of Hungarians in the successor states. And how did Cabot Lodge’s efforts to keep America out of the League of Nations prevent the US from saving Hungary’s territory? Unless you are referring to the fact that Wilson trusted the League of Nations to redraw the borders.
If anyone should apologise, it should be the English and the French, collaborating with the Czechs and the Romanians. And the Americans at least attempted to win a fairer drawing of borders later, at the treaty negotiations of WWII. And if no apology, the least both nations can do is to speak up in the European Parliament for the Hungarians suffering across borders due to the mess they created.
Tanarur: Wiki may not be an academic source, but nothing that Sophist posted was incorrect. I agree with beju that Hungary had no choice in either war. Particularly because there was no autonomous Hungary in the first one.
Harry Hill Bandholtz: An officer and gentleman. Every time I go to Szabadság tér I stop at his statue. Great memoirs. Naturally the Romanians translated it first, after it was published in 1933, to attack it. And naturally it was published in Hungarian only in 1993. Like the man’s statue was hidden for about that time. No need of enemies like the Romanians when postwar Hungarian regimes will do their work.
In English for anyone interested: http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/bandh/bandh.pdf. The Romanians will never forgive him for writing what they did here in 1919, not only pillaging, but murdering, and what he writes about the Romanian character. http://www.bparchiv.hu/magyar/kiadvany/bpn/29_30/ungvary.html
What he writes about the Czechs is not to positive either.
Tunde,
“and Wilson’s 14 points originally did not mean dissolution of the Monarchy”
Apparently, but I would like to know more about the rejection of the Danubian “United Kingdom”. I think that point 10 – “The peoples of Austria-Hungary, whose place among the nations we wish to see safeguarded and assured, should be accorded the freest opportunity to autonomous development.” – did politicise and polarise ethnicities. Every Hungarian statesman I have read about, was aware of the danger of doing this, and since Werbőczy have tried to develop a nation of citizens rather than a ethnic nation.
“The Latin terms “natio Hungarica” and “Hungarus” referred to all noblemen of the kingdom. A Hungarus-consciousness (loyalty and patriotism above ethnic origins) existed among many inhabitants of this state, however according to István Werbőczy’s Tripartitum Natio Hungarica or Hungarus were only the privileged noblemen, subjects of the Holy Crown regardless of ethnicity.” More Wiki
The more I think about it out the weirder it seems that a President of the US (surely the world’s most succesful nation of citizens) should be pushing for an ethnic solution. But then some writers regard Wilson as a tremendous racist.
@Tünde: Are you following your compatriots cowardly lead now and no longer addressing your comments to the people they are intended for? Rather keep the discussion and head nodding between yourself and those that agree with you?
To your (indirect) point: “do they know or care about the suffering of Hungarians or the sand niggers”
1. I have detailed the things I am reading the source I use.
2. In relation to my sources you have never once shown that you read anything as comprehensive and avoid all discussions of particular details.
3. On history, genetics, culture etc… you are a complete coward and prefer to insinuate rather than respond.
4. You care nothing for what you so ignorantly call ‘sand niggers’. I do. Islamic culture is my current passion.
5. You have blindly dismissed Arabs, their culture, their intellectual achievements and now wish to portray yourself as their saviour and guardian in arms. Spineless and vacuous verbal gesturing.
6. You deny the holocaust just like your compatriot(s) but are too spineless to say it outright.
7. I read all news sources as I have repeatedly shown from kuruc.hu, hvg, magyarnarancs, magyar nemzet, hírTV, népszabadság…. I have no overt prejudices or opinion, just for bullshit and vacuous posturing of the form you display.
8. The Jews were and are Hungarian. Do I care about Hungarians, yes, but not shite windbags like yourself and your ilk.
9.I have demonstrated the breadth and depth of your ignorance, repeatedly.
And the rest…
sorry for the multiple posts…I just got interested in this again and got a bit carried away writing…
I came across a couple of really interesting articles today about Hungarian history in the period between the 1848 Revolution and the Paris Peace Talks. The first article was: (Kossuth and the Treaty of Trianon Author(s): Oscar Jászi Source: Foreign Affairs, Vol. 12, No. 1 (Oct., 1933), pp. 86-97) In this, the author discusses the view that the post-Trianon borders were not solely the product of ‘capricious’ behaviour by the Allies, but rather, that in analysing correspondence between Kossuth and Teleki, it seems that Kossuth had foreseen such a development if as Teleki had suggested, that post-revolution, Hungary should become a federation of semi-autonomous ethnic provinces. He felt that if that was allowed to happen, the new provinces would sooner or later seek to separate themselves completely, or ally themselves with their closest ethnic relatives. Instead, he favoured one state with the Magyars as ‘rulers’. Unfortunately, or so it seems, the lack of support from the minorities just made it that much harder for the revolution to succeed.
This is not to say that Jászi was suggesting that the Trianon borders were ‘right’, he points out the behaviour of the allies and the stupidity of dividing only on ethnic lines and not including economic factors as well. The main point I got from this was that the eventual size and shape of Hungary was not completely arbitrary, but that there was a pre-existing context at play. Kossuth knew that if Hungary was not able to gain support from another greater power to help it guarantee its territorial integrity, the outer provinces would inevitably break away.
In regard to who was involved in the talks: “The Supreme Council or Council of Ten, which was actually the successor of the Supreme War Council, represented the highest authority of the Paris Conference. It consisted of two representatives from each of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers, that is the United States, Great Britain, France, Italy, and Japan. Yet when the Council proved to be too large and unwieldy a body, its functions were divided between the Council of Four, composed of the United States, Great Britain, France, and Italy, and the Council of Five or Council of Foreign Ministers of the Allied or Associated Powers which included, in addition to the respective representatives of the four foregoing Powers, also the Foreign Minister of Japan.”
What was great about this article was the way it put the late Austro-Hungarian empire, WWI, Soviet Hungarian Republic periods together. Low talks about how the ultimatums of the allies for Hungarian troops to leave the outer provinces, combined with low numbers of allied soldiers in the area to act as ‘peace-keepers’ weakened the Karolyi government’s ability to hold the country together. Caught between a rock and a hard place, Karolyi knew that acquiescence to the allied demands would likely lead to revolt, while refusal could lead to invasion. Instead, he resigned which owing to an alliance between the communists and the Social Democrats, allowed Bela Kun to come to power. As a result, the Council would not allow Hungarian representatives to attend the talks. The failure of the allies to deal fairly with Hungary, while not ensuring its security and procrastinating in getting the talks under way left Karolyi in an untenable position, and gave Kun a justification for his view that: “we ought to get from the East what the West has denied us.”
Not surprisingly, this also led to an extreme rise in nationalism. Low felt that further disadvantaged Hungary stating: “It was no doubt damaging to Hungary’s cause that in the critical days of the spring of 1919 intense Magyar nationalism combined with the menace of Bolshevism and threatened to set Europe afire. The unfortunate alliance between Magyar nationalism and social radicalism of the Bolshevik variety with its Messianic overtones and aggressive purposes was hardly likely to endear the Hungarian nation to the Peacemakers” Low felt that the allies’ cavalier attitude towards Hungary left the nation to disintegrate, while succession states gained strength. According to him, Hungary would have been better off with occupation. “A complete rather than piecemeal occupation of the disputed Hungarian territories, accompanied by explanatory declarations of broad policy, would psychologically have proved less painful and politically less disruptive. The Hungarian government and people would have been less inclined to entertain unrealistic hopes about preserving the country’s territorial integrity, and the extremist groups at the left and the right would have been unable to exploit the question of Hungary’s boundaries and to fan the fires of Magyar nationalism, with consequences which were disastrous to Hungarian democracy.”
In the end, it has given me much to think about in terms of my view of Trianon. It has certainly made me understand better the hostility that many Hungarians have towards the allies. I would even go as far as to say that some of my earlier attitudes were not correct. I’m not exactly sure how I feel about the borders now. On one hand, there is now no doubt for me that Hungary got a bad deal, but on the other, I still feel that just as Hungary didn’t want to be ruled by Austria, so too I can understand why outer provinces in which other ethnicities were the majority would also not want to be governed by another ethnic group. In that sense, as the first article suggested, given that Hungary was unable to secure the lasting support of a greater power, the nation ended up being exactly what Kossuth foresaw.
I say this without any malice or condescension…while I am now even more sensitive to the feelings of Hungarians on the issue, I still ask myself whether or not strong nationalist ideals will do the country any favours. If you follow Low’s view, it doesn’t seem likely. Being something of a pragmatist in most things, I tend to believe in that old adage that ‘cooler heads prevail’…even if this is less emotionally satisfying. That’s not to say that Hungarians should just ‘forget’ what happened to them; they do have a right to feel cheated, I just can’t see the point of what for me amounts to national ‘self-harming behaviour’ (again this is not a put-down) when what is needed is some pretty massive reform and reconstruction.
@anon600ad: Very interesting and thoughtful comments. I’d say that for me, the “borders” issue as well as the larger issues of socioeconomic malaise can really benefit from a dose of decentralization within these countries plus some (light-handed) refereeing from the EU. In the end, if the borders are open and there is more (accountable) local control, the Hungarian communities across the borders should do much better.
Eric: Thanks. I pretty much agree with you.
Here is the reference for the second article.
(The Soviet Hungarian Republic and the Paris Peace Conference Author(s): Alfred D. Low Source: Transactions of the American Philosophical Society, New Series, Vol. 53, No. 10 (1963), pp. 1-91)
@anon600ad and Sophist: Thanks for taking the time to put your views and summarise some of the things you’ve been reading. All of it really helpful in putting existing emotional reactions in historical context.
In hunting down anon600ad’s reference I came across some other sources that look equally interesting:
http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/maj/maj23.htm
I’ll be following up on a few of these, so thanks for the lead.
@Tünde and wankstain: Foreigners and expats put you to shame. You’ve lived here all your pathetic lives to end up knowing sod all about your own history, political culture and economic status.
Van: If it helps, I found those articles using the JSTOR database.
I wish I had more time to read history. Sadly it has to be a third priority to work and study.
Anon,
Once again thanks for the posts and the sources, I too have access to JSTOR and will download the Low paper.
Whereas your posts address the issue of how post WWI events in Hungary affected the negotiations at Paris, it is still not clear what Wilson’s intentions were in writing the fourteen points ( and hence the issue of American complicity with Trianon).Now that we have been reasonable and dare I say it – scholarly – for a while maybe Tanár úr or someone else with an interest in American history will come back to this question.
Cheers,
Anon,
While your effort in trying to explain the unexplainable is commendable, allow me point out the deficiency in your analysis.
You disregard vital then-contemporary issues plagueing the region.
Neither Slovaks, nor Romanians were in majority in Felvidek or Erdely.
The allies were blindly intent upon satisfying the hunger of their small-entente proxies without consideration of the resulting circumstances.
Wilson and the US wanted their money back from her allies, Britain and France. Britain and France financed their proxies Czechoslovakia and Romania respectively and were pressed for reparation funds.
The US didn’t care one bit about the fluctuation of borders in postwar Europe, only return of their investment in its prosecution.
The small-entente countries were the best tools for Britain and France to keep afloat by robbing Hungary with everything she ever had, land, nickel mines, gold mines, lumber, access to the sea, vital resources.
As a French diplomat, Pozzi said after the treaty was signed:
“Hungary was not dismembered, she was executed.”
And dear Anon,
In a nutshell for you, the Allies were vultures and the US was smart enough not to ratify it, ’cause you never know what the future holds and maybe these poor Hungarians come after us later legally for our actions. Had nothing to do with sympathy on their part. It doesn’t absolve them from responsibility. It was about Wilson’s bullshit and plain cold hard cash.
beju: Thanks for your comments. I didn’t disregard the elements you mentioned, but rather, firstly: I don’t claim to know everything, and on such a complicated issue as the Trianon period, there is much to learn. When I have the time, I try to find as many sources as I can. In my defence, I’d just like to say that I’m getting there. Secondly, in a forum like this, there just isn’t room to fully analyse such topics comprehensively. The Low source itself is 91 pages long. I’m sure no-one here wants to hear an in-depth analysis on the whole thing. So I do my best to include stuff that is relevant to me at the time that I write, and add things as the conversation goes along. I know that can be frustrating for those who know more about a subject than I do, but as I said, it’s a learning process.
For what it’s worth, both of the sources I mentioned were pro-Hungary and pointed out the deficiencies in history as it is written. Both have influenced my thinking.
“Neither Slovaks, nor Romanians were in majority in Felvidek or Erdely”
Actually not only Romanians were over 50% , but they were backed by Saxons too, which brings at about 70-75% the population who wanted to secede.
@lvl100,
Nice try there.
The Saxons wanted to be ruled by Vlad the Impaler.))))))))
Who are you kidding? They were forced out of Erdely you dumb idiot by olahs!
Get a life and next time offer your intelligent comments to some jewish broadcast you asshole!
And by the way… fuck off!
Dear Anon,
History lesson continued…
The peril posed by jewish communist crooks in 1919 like bela kun, tibor szamualy, who wrestled power from the look-alike karolyi helped the antagonists and vultures to tear the 1000 year of Hungarian Kingdom apart in less than a year had it not been the triumph of Horthy. Had he not been our governor, there’d be no Hungary today.
So do not be averse of people contesting your views who know better. For your info ask the Irish.
Same story, except our detriments are the jews.
Sophist: “Weird that US President pushing for an ethnic solution.” But the US was not multi-ethnic then. It was mostly European. And until the 1950s it strictly limited immigration of non Europeans. Anyway most people were racist at the time, so it is irrelevant if Wilson was as well.
The US a successful nation of citizens? Maybe earlier, but now it is the most neurotic, diseased, uneducated and crime ridden nation in the “developed” world, in large part because there is no identity there.
Werbőczy. The noble was the nation then, not only in Europe. The nobles had to guard the country, provide armies if need be, and they were given titles for their service. In addition, the belief was that nobility was granted from God and connected to the (sacred) Hungarian crown. In this sense, they were more Hungarian than the people. It is only later that the people became the nation, this is true all over Europe with the rise of the nation state. Until then the identity was regional. Look at Italy.
Yes the Point 10 politicised and polarised ethnicities, but it really just gave them the text and pretext they needed. You are giving far too much responsibility to the US. More important were the power plays that were going on at the time, as beju wrote. As economic historian Niall Ferguson said on the BBC recently, most ethnic conflicts are stirred up by someone behind them, as is obvious now in Hungary.
Vándorló: I did address the post to the person. Pávaszem made the comment. And you have repeated demonstrated your ignorance and that you are a liar. Unlike you, I have a life outside of this depressing world of AllHungary, and I am getting sick of posting to you because answering you is 90% correctly your lies about my posts such as the following:
“You have blindly dismissed Arabs, their culture, their intellectual achievements and now wish to portray yourself as their saviour and guardian in arms.“
What are you talking about? So sand nigger means Arab? I did not know that, but when did I ever mention Arabs, their culture or intellectual achievements? And how does what I said “portray myself as their saviour and guardian in arms?”
The only reference I made re: Islam was in terms of Somalis and rape in Finland, and that I am not happy about the Islamification of Europe. And it was your country, assuming you really have one, that helped to destroy Iraq, her, and the world’s genebank and her national museum (just like Dresden).
And you pompous ignoramus, what do you mean expats put us to shame? What on earth do you think I do not know that anon wrote? I read Jászi Oszkár at school. Never heard of Low, (I googled him, the topic not really his speciality, maybe Balogh Éva helped him). Total occupation would have be a disaster. What precisely did he mean by “intense Magyar nationalism”. Trying to prevent the “not intensely nationalist” Romanians, the Serbs and the Czechs
V,anon: cont. from taking every piece of Hungary and Romanians from shooting Hungarians at random? Tanár Úr mentioned Bandholtz, who physically prevented the Romanians from stealing all of the contents of the National Museum. I linked his memoirs above. He was here in 1919! And it was stupid Károlyi who was a fool, a megalomaniac, and a puppet with Jászi at his side, who did Hungary the most harm, because he allowed bolshevik coup, which brought in the Entente. Why do you think the bolseviks put up a statue of him beside the Parliament? “The smaller the country grows, the larger I get, I may even become king!”. The fool stated famously. Another source I and Farkas László mentioned was Tormay Cécile’s An Outlaw’s Diary. It is also online. Or Bryan Cartledge, he has written two recent books on Hungary, he was here as ambassador.
Yes the borders of Trianon were arbitrary, you should see the Czech, Romanian and Serb proposals of the time. Nothing would remain. Even Kossuth did not imagine what came with Trianon. Beju explained this.
And Trianon is not about Hungary “feeling cheated”. Hungary’s history, people, monuments and treasures were left outside her borders. Trianon is about totally destroying a nation. Think of Armenian and looking at Ararat. And as I explained above, as Niall Fergeson explained, ethnic conflicts are usually stirred up.
anon: On “Hungarian nationalism”. I used to think nationalism did not work either. that seems to be wrong for every other country around Hungary. From 1945 to 1989 Hungary did almost nothing for Hungarians cross borders. As the Romanians and Czechs wrote their lies of Trianon in history books, home and abroad, and with the Ukraine persecuted Hungarians, most sadly in 1956 when Romania imprisoned and executed ethnic Hungarians there for sympathy for Hungary, Hungary did everything it could to appease them. Did it help? No. MSZP has a “non nationalist” policy towards Slovakia and Romania. The Slovak certified car thief (Slovaks proved it last week) nationalist Slota was able to pass a law which will fine a doctor for speaking Hungarian to a patient in Slovak majority areas, even if the patient and the doctor are Hungarian. The Romanians threatened Hungary, that if it gave dual citizenship, it will strip Hungarians there of Romanian citizenship, this is after Romania gave 100000 ethnic Romanians in Moldavia Romanian citizenship. And Vándorló has the nerve to call preference for ethnic Hungarians in Hungarian citizenship processes “discrimination”. Romanian forbids signs in Hungarian in the Babes Bolyai Hungarian University and forbids the Hungarian Csángos to hold mass in Hungarian. And Serbs attack Hungarians on the streets for speaking Hungarian, and yet HUNGARIANS ARE THE NATIONALISTS!
Speaking of Serbia. I was there two months ago. The gypsies there gave a friendly wave whenever they saw the Hungarian auto tags. This is because Hungarians are more tolerant of them than Serbs. Interesting, I thought we shoot at them.
To deal with Hungarians cross borders is a tremendous financial and emotional strain for Hungary. Autonomy does not help with national laws like a language law. The EU was supposed protect minorities and help solve ethnic problems. Instead with open borders Slovaks and Romanians are buy up, for them, cheap land and houses at the borders, increasing tension. I have doubts about any solutions.
Vándorló you don’t know shit about Hungary, and that is pathetic for almost 20 years here.
I will be away from my computer for at least a week and I will not read this site. Until I return Vándorló, please drop dead.
@Tünde: Your ignorance really is profound, congratulations, it must take an enormous effort to remain so obliviously stupid.
1. “…for almost 20 years here…” As I’ve said before – repeating something doesn’t make it true unless you are talking to Hungarians – I’ve lived here this time for 2 years. In the early nineties I also lived in Hungary for 2 years. So that should be 2 + 2 = 4. Are you following? 2 + 2 != 20, even if you mess around with the base system, you can’t make that add up to 20.
2. “…the US was not multi-ethnic then. It was mostly European. And until the 1950s it strictly limited immigration of non Europeans.” Plucking stuff straight out of your arse again; and not a blush of shame. Never heard of the Chicago race riot 1919? Wilson tried to introduce legislation to reduce ethnic tension at that time. Since this is baby steps for you, start with your old friend wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Race_Riot_of_1919
3. “…has the nerve to call preference for ethnic Hungarians in Hungarian citizenship processes “discrimination”.” I outlined the way the Hungarian immigration system works, I made absolutely no such judgment. I also pointed out that the immigration system would rather turn away qualified and well educated immigrants in preference for native Hungarian speakers. It’s an observation based on facts. I also pointed out that the Hungarian language and cultural classes for immigrants often do not take place due to the money being stolen.
Tünde,
“But the US was not multi-ethnic then. It was mostly European. And until the 1950s it strictly limited immigration of non Europeans”
It also strictly limited the immigration of South/East Europeans: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924.
It may not be “racism”, but it is worth remembering the extent of WASP prejudice and discrimination against the Irish, Italians, Poles and no-doubt Hungarians, too.
This weekend, I had an interesting conversation with an American friend who had been invited to join the Sons of the American Revolution, he attended a recruitment meeting but found himself a little perplexed by all the talk of “purity”.
“The EU was supposed protect minorities and help solve ethnic problems. Instead with open borders Slovaks and Romanians are buy up, for them, cheap land and houses at the borders, increasing tension”
Tünde at July 20, 2009 8:54 AM
—
There are 3 ways of doing this:
1) National courts, where individuals or their organisations challenge any unfair treatment. If the National Law is bad and not just the implementation of it, it will not help so much.
2) The European Court of Justice (has nothing to do with the EU, but all member states have ratified to follow it rulings). Same thing as with the National Court, but you can get a judgement over a ‘bad’ law, which then can be used to in National scene.
Problem here is that it takes in general 7 years and if no verdict in the highest National Court, it will be hard to get the ball rolling.
3) In combination with steps 1 and 2, in the EP and also in the EC (but that will probably be blocked very easy under the current system with 100% approval needed), create a majority for investigation and political pressures.
This is also rather outdrawn procedure.
—-
So, the anti-EU posters who normally go against any higher level of integration and that the EU meddles in National politics, cries out on this specific case.
The simple truth is – If you do not want a Federal EU, with its EUPol and integrated minimum framework for laws, it will never work how you now claim it should work.
The EU is today just your “Union of States”.
@Sophie: “royalists and the anti-royalists… not nations-based, nor even class based. Correct… And, the anti-royalists were less Magyar than the royalists. They were also not nationalists although they pretended and are portrayed to be both to this day. 1848 was a classic false flag op. The revolutionaries were Freemasons and the revolution was part of the international revolutionary wave of 1848 that was preceded by the French and American (Freemason/Cosmopolitan) revolutions and followed by the Cosmopolitan revolutionary waves of 1956 and 68. The pseudo nationalist tint of these events was just as fake as the Commies folklore ridden Potemkin village ‘nationalism.’ Bolsheviks and Freemasons were cosmopolitans that rose with the world revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries. In the worst years of the 1950′s the number of streets, institutions, etc. named after Rákosi (Rosenfeld) were closely followed by the number of streets and institutions named after Ludovít Košut : Kossuth díj, Kossuth tér, Kossuth rádió, Kossuth anyám kínja. By 1968 the sea change that began in 1956 was complete although accounts and status quo will not be settled (more or less) until 1989. As for Széchenyi let’s not forget that in the Trojan horse of his gifts to Magyars hid the English which is the equivalent of contaminating our wells with swine flu.
@Sophie (cont.): “Radvánsky family… certainly did not speak Hungarian” Nor did most of the Freemason revolutionaries executed at Arad. “identification was territorial and ancestral-property-based rather than linguistic” Loyalty to the Sacra Corona and religion decided who you were. Language not so much. In mixed ethnic areas people still speak with native fluency each other’s languages. First languages are even swapped back and forth (nyelvcsere) such as the Vends (Germans, who for some reason switched to Slovene as their first language) or Hungarians in the Subcarpathian Highlands that switched to Rusyn or Rusyns that only know Magyar now. And, let’s not forget József nádor (Erzherzog Joseph Anton Johann Baptist von Österreich) whose Hungarian was at least as good as Széchenyi’s and did at least as much or more for Hungary as Széchenyi did. Or queen Sisi (Elisabeth Amalie Eugenie, Herzogin in Bayern, Kaiserin von Österreich und Apostolische Königin von Ungarn). Was she less Hungarian than Lahner, Leiningen-Westerburg, Poeltenberg, Schweidel, Bem, Košut or Дамјанић?
@Sophist: “the [national groups] no longer trusted Vienna, and were now dead set on independence” Beneš, Masaryk (as in kibbutz Kfar Masaryk) et al. who had been groomed in the US and UK for their Pétain and Quisling type roles were dead set (by the English) on (Allied) dependence. The national groups themselves were just confused and waited for orders or guidance, assurances that they had not been abandoned by their rulers. And when such assurances came such as General Stromfeld’s May 1919 campaign to liberate the Highlands, Slovak units of the ‘Czechoslovak’ army (that was as Czech or Slovak as the French SS was French in the following war) immediately fell in line, deserted the ‘Czech’ traitors and attacked their rear. They had no doubt whatsoever where they belong. There is also another little noted aspect of the crimes committed by the first world government in Paris: the Paris ‘Peace’ (a. k. a. Trianon) was the inception of globalism, the world of shit that we live in today “it is still not clear what Wilson’s intentions were in writing the fourteen points” Was it not really? It was a Temple Grandin style ‘stairway to heaven’ at best, at worst just a low down Gringo snow job.
@Tanár úr: “to be counted as a Hungarian traditionally has meant that you spoke the Hungarian language as your first language” Nem igaz. To be Hungarian has always meant loyalty to the Sacra Corona, Szentkorona, Stephanskrone, Kruna svetoga, etc. “people who spoke Croatian were not counted as Hungarians, but as… Croatians” False again. Look at Austro-Hungarian army or census records: Magyars, Slovaks, Croats, etc. were ‘Hungarians;’ Germans, Czechs, Slovenes Austrian. The felső-szilvási Nopcsa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Nopcsa_von_Fels%C5%91-Szilv%C3%A1s family’s first language was Romanian, Széchenyi’s German and they were both Hungarian. Other than that people’s identity was their religion. “Hungarian identification was primarily linguistic and cultural, not specifically racial or ethnic.” Cultural yes, linguistic no and while ethnicity and and race may have hinted at social class, loyalty to the Crown and religion defined you. “if a family that was originally from Croatia and spoke Croatian decided to use Hungarian as their first language, they would become Hungarian” My best friend’s family in Budapest speak Slovak at home, a family I know in Beregszász speaks Hungarian at home but fight in Rusyn
a childhood friend from Nagymaros speaks ‘German’ with his grandmother…
@Tanár úr, continued: And it has never occurred to me or anyone I know that they are not as Hungarian as I am. As they say in the American president’s country of birth we’re ‘Bhinneka Tunggal Ika’ “My own view is that political parties and movements of any kind are not the solutions to the problems we face” Political parties NO, movement(s) YES. We have to get organized somehow… (to embark on the shared purpose of finding that great little country that is hidden in here somewhere).
@Vándorló: “I said” 1. …on a different board. 2. the ‘you’ in my comment was plural as in ‘theWhoresOfIsrael’ not just you ‘the Whore’ singular. 3. ‘You said’ confabulating as usual. There were no Kike transports in May, June or July 1944 to any German labor camp and there couldn’t have been, wouldn’t have made sense, weren’t later no matter how often you regurgitate the usual ridiculous, transparent and bold faced lies or post links to ‘evidence’ as grotesque and phony as a 3 dollar bill or a bin Laden video.
@Pávaszem: That the best you can do? Here’s some of their deportation from Balatonfüred (1944) – towards the bottom of the page (after the photos of their one time neighbours looting their empty properties):
http://www.holocaust-history.org/hungarian-photos/
Amongst plenty of other photos.
Some recommended reading to improve your knowledge of history:
1. The Politics of Genocide: Holocaust in Hungary
by Randolph L. Braham, Wayne State University Press; Abridged 2 Revised Ed edition (31 Mar 2000), ISBN-10: 0814326900 or ISBN-13: 978-0814326909
2. A magyarországi holokauszt földrajzi enciklopédiája – 1-3. kötet, Braham, Randolph M, Park Kiadó, 2007, ISBN: 9635307388
p.s. What do you think of some of the thinking that the Jobbik money is Arab sourced? (www.hurut.info/2009/07/jobbik-es-ami-mogotte-van.html)
Those photos are victims of Typhoid and sickness, no proof of any of your allegations.
@Tünde: “Szálasi was a Zionist” Wow! How so? “Soros is not” Sörös is whatever the Vásárhelyis and Red Eva are or similar which is not anything incompatible with Zionism. Marxism has a few variations too and they all suck. “Mert mégiscsak kis és nagy kapitalisták voltak. Átvették a kis és nagy ipart nem csak itt, hanem mindenütt a Kárpát medencében.” Nem tudom, nekem ha nagyiparost hallok Chorin, Weiss, Goldberger vagy Hatvany-Deutsch jut az eszembe. Kik ezeknek a sváb – és nem bajor, osztrák, pfalzi, hesseni, németalföldi, svájci, elzászi, szász mint Klapka vagy cipszer, mint Görgey – megfelelői? De még svájci vagy osztrák is talán ha kettő van, Dreher és Richter, akik nem is igazán voltak nagyiparosok mint Chorin vagy Weiss. Re. népiek: Az elsodort falu serdülőkorom egyik legemlékezetesebb könyvélménye volt és szerintem mind a mai napig aktuális. De azt is tudom, hogy a ‘népiek’ ától cettig frankofílok voltak, Franciaországban tanultak és a németellenességük innen ered. Az, hogy franciaszeretetüket hogy tudták a párizsi ‘béke’ után a hazaszeretetükkel összeegyeztetni, számomra felfoghatatlan. “egész Tolna megye nem beszélt magyarul egészen a háborúig” Baranya még kevésbbé, de a hazájuknak ezzel együtt Magyarországot tartották.
@Tünde. continued: “While Erik is off visiting Auschwitz again and Vándorló is volunteering his services for the Shoah”
))) “Délvidéki magyarok. Jól kerestek, na és? Akkor is csak másodrangú munkások voltak a németek szemében.” A rengeteg vendégmunkás lenyomta a német munkás bérét… Egyébként az Ossie-t (volt keletnémetet) sem szeretik jobban a volt nyugatnémetek és fordítva bár ‘alacsonyabbrendűnek’ inkább csak a törököt tartják, akiket a Morgenthau inspirált ami megszállók kifejezetten azzal a céllal telepítettek be tömegesen, hogy ‘felhigítsák az agresszív német gén poolt’. “Farm Swap” Wow! The BBC hack keeps calling Hungary ‘overseas’ A bona fide European mindset I am sure 
)And this Andrew guy keeps quoting money in dollars. Isn’t that kind of strange for a Limey? Knowing the BBC I googled around a bit for stuff I was sure the hack ‘forgot to mention’ and boy have I found DIRT! First of all Andy boy who according to the piece ‘soldiers on bravely in Hungary’ *doesn’t even own the farm.* He’s just some minor Gauleiter of a company called Magyar Farming Co. Ltd. that supplies *Tesco!* 
) Which means they are probably owned by Tesco. Which is bad, Bad BAD! We shouldn’t let these swine grab our energy and our food supply. They should be fucked, broken and driven out of Hungary like the disease they are before we become slaves in our own country like the Irish.
@Tünde, cont.: “Király Béla temetése jövőhéten lesz. A 301-es parcellában fogják eltemetni. Csak itt Magyarorsztánban.” Az angloid propaganda is dicséri mint cigány a lovát: ‘A hard-working, broad-minded scholar, a man of democratic convictions and great integrity…’
)) http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/09/obituary-bela-kiraly Vagyis nem magyar eredetű az érinthetetlensége. Nyilván épp ilyen emberekre van szükségük mindenhol, ahová elviszik a demokráciát.
@Sophist: “The more I think about it out the weirder it seems that a President of the US… should be pushing for an ethnic solution.” The president of a *melting pot* such as Hungary once was… All these contradictions fall in place though and start making sense once you realize that the aim, the only aim, of the war victors was to kill the competition, kill Austria-Hungary, make sure she never rises and becomes a great power again. “The peoples of Austria-Hungary, whose place among the nations we wish to see safeguarded and assured, should be accorded the freest opportunity to autonomous development.” How Orwellian… “But then some writers regard Wilson as a tremendous racist” Más jót én sem tudok mondani róla…
@anon600ad: “Oscar Jászi” is several notches below Vásárhelyi & Balogh. Who turns you on to these ‘sources’ man? “Unfortunately, or so it seems, the lack of support from the minorities just made it that much harder for the revolution to succeed.” Do you seriously believe that the governed have ever had any input whatsoever? Especially back when not even today’s pretenses were made? It’s the powerful and their shakers and movers that decide and have always decided our fate. They even tell us what to feel and think and the unwashed masses just follow (QED here). Common folk are just horses and cattle or cannon fodder whichever they are needed as at the time.
Pávaszem,
“the only aim, of the war victors was to kill the competition, kill Austria-Hungary, make sure she never rises and becomes a great power again”
I think the victors’ aims were diverse. Wilson’s aim of establishing global institutions would have been facilitated by the dismemberment of existing great powers (cf the European Union’s policy of empowering regions): but would Austro-Hungary count as a great power?
From the standard representation of British interests at the time, Austro-Hungary is of significance only as a German ally. The British were in direct competition with the German Empire industrially, navally and imperially: dismantling the German military-industrial complex would make sense as a war aim. But so far I agree with this, “There seems little doubt that if Vienna and Budapest had been amenable to a sperate peace, the British would have abandoned any plans for a major dimunition of Austria or Hungary.” http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/tria/tria09.htm
As for the French, they long had a history of rivalry with Austria, and were interested in developing Romania as Francophile ally in the region….
@Tünde: “Never heard of Low, (I googled him, the topic not really his speciality, maybe Balogh Éva helped him)” Low’s specialty is ‘East European’ and Soviet ‘Jewry’ and the ‘Holocaust.’ & Our Trusty Anon has once again unmistakeably found the ‘correct source’ for ‘Trianon
’
@Sophist: “Wilson’s aim of establishing global institutions would have been facilitated by the dismemberment of existing great powers ” Such as the British Empire? Did he actually want to dismantle the UK? WOW! “would Austro-Hungary count as a great power?” Yes. A great power is one that isn’t owned by another great power (like we are owned by the Anglosphere) can’t be exploited by great powers (like we are exploited by the Anglosphere) and doesn’t have to do whatever the great powers dictate (like our Judas goat politicians may only ask how high when the AI-MIC tells them to jump). After the Széchenyi breach the ‘British’ (read English) had been successfully kept out of Hungary which in itself qualifies Austria-Hungary asa great power. & the US didn’t even matter before WWI. It was a backward, insignificant country where, according to president Carter, living standards of the rural population were below the living standards of the Russian Muzhik. “dismantling the German military-industrial complex would make sense as a war aim. Incorporating it has apparently made even more sense. And the English try to get their claws on Hungarian land and resources (with people like Széchenyi helping them) since the early 19th century “As for the French,” The Anglosphere and its main ally OWNED the French by the Paris Peace who after a short and refreshing German ownership became an AI-MIC asset again. The joke ‘how many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?’ comes to mind.
@Marxist Tra… I mean: Our Swedish Friends, Does anyone remember the first comment on this board by ‘malmomonster?’(‘Please understand I have no vested interest in portraying the story one way or another, I just want to be accurate.’:) Well, it turns out she really is a monster called Ingrid Hedström http://bit.ly/11UZtL whose hatchet job just appeared in some nordic tabloid rag http://bit.ly/Iwobp called Dagens Nyheter (which is actually a leading newspaper in Sweden) /bit.ly/QWkOs in which the lying bitch had the nerve to imply that the Tatárszentgyörgy victims of a Gypsy gang war were actually killed by Jobbik by Hungarian Guard proxy. Based in part on what our own Israelite Lapp layed on her /bit.ly/1fDLF4 above. (‘Many Roma have also been shot with a rifle from a distance at night’ Like WHERE you lying piece of shit?) Does this qualify the Lapp an enemy combatant I wonder
Pávaszem,
“Such as the British Empire?”
Well, yes. The Atlantic Charter was the suicide note of the British Empire. Churchill agreed not to make any territorial claims subsequent to war, (great imperial policy) and that all peoples had the right to self-determination (a beefed up version of Wilson’s point 10). He assured the UK parliament that the latter only applied to peoples subjugated by the Allies, but he should of been a lawyer rather than a music hall orator. Ultimately, he was carried away by his own Anglo-american ancestry and the charm of Roosevelt, and believed his own rhetoric about the special relationship of the “English-speaking peoples”. I don’t. Since the revolution there never has been a time when British interests were identical to American interests. Consequently, I don’t really believe in this Anglo-sphere stuff.
As for great powers your definition is tautological “A great power is one that isn’t owned by another great power”. Try this – “A great power is a nation or state that has the ability to exert its influence on a global scale” (wiki). Without its maritime empire the UK wasn’t and isn’t, Austria-Hungary was only able to exert its influence in the Balkans. The Hungarian Kingdom of Louis the Great had been rather more influential.
Pávaszem/Visitor,
“the nerve to imply that the Tatárszentgyörgy victims of a Gypsy gang war were actually killed by Jobbik by Hungarian Guard proxy”
Why are you lying?
I read the article (thanks for the link) in Swedish as published by DN and there is no such connection, just in your head.
Also your ridiculous suggestion that Ingrid Hedström would be malmo-monster is just childish. If you had read the article Ingrid actually *was* in TATÁRSZENTGYÖRGY and spoke with the father of the killed.
What the article gives me is more background to what happened the first hours after the attack:
1) The ambulance came late and did not have the correct equipment.
2) The local Police denies any weapon attack then they claim the victims were hit by big nails from the woodwork. This was the story until the family could show the bullets in clothes and inside the house.
3) The Fire Department claimed first that the fire was due to ‘electrical problems’ and not Molotov-cocktails.
—
Obviously is it not easy to get some protection from the local forces. Gives you a bit feeling of the US Southern States 50-100 years ago.
The CSI (who are a bit more professional) showed that the victims had been shoot by a shotgun.
So to answer your question:
“Like WHERE you lying piece of shit?”
Just check the CSI-report.
And then you decide who is a “lying piece of shit”.
Reality has never been your strong side.
Correction:
“He assured the UK parliament that the latter only applied to peoples subjugated by the Allies”
“He assured the UK parliament that the latter only applied to peoples subjugated by the Axis”
Oops!
Viking,
Even if I agree with your points 1 to 3, it points to the Tatárszentgyörgy family being victims of arson and murder, but not to the far right being perpetrators of arson and murder. Is there something (in Swedish?) that you left out of your last post?
Sophist,
“but not to the far right being perpetrators of arson and murder.”
We should all learn the lessons from the other village with a murder (Kiskunlacháza). This time it was also blamed on Roma.
In the end Police arrested a local red-haired guy living close. The normal suspect for normal Police-work.
I do not know who are behind the attacks against Roma and what the Swedish article in DN writes is:
“Ungerska Gardet, Jobbiks uniformerade gren, marscherar genom romska bosättningar. Från hela landet rapporteras om attacker mot landets stora romska minoritet, ofta med molotovcocktails som kastas in i romska hem”.
Would be someting like:
‘The Hungarian Guard, the uniformed wing of Jobbik, is marching throw Roma settlements. From the whole country reports of attacks against the country’s large Roma minority, often with Molotov-cocktails thrown into Roma homes’
I suppose this is what Visitor picked up on, but it is in two distinct sentences and is common knowledge.
Visitor/Jobbik’s idea that this is ‘Gypsy Gang War’ is the most unbelivable theory. After the arrest of the ‘Hungarian Arrow’ terrorists I think the scenario that any extreme right-wing ‘organisation’ (not Jobbik/Magyar Garda) is behind several of the attacks. Some of the attacks can be local drunk copy-cats, inspired by the other attacks and the extreme right-wing rhetoric.
I think we discussed the possibility of a rise of political motivated violence in Hungary some years ago and I think I was right at that time.
“The Atlantic Charter was the suicide note of the British Empire” You’re messing with the timeline my dear Sophist which is kind of: ¡DODGIEEEEEE! We were discussing the first world government at Paris, the ‘Paris Peace,’ its evil intentions and the damage they had done to Hungary and Hungarians back when the US and Wilson weren’t even taken seriously and the British Empire was still the greatest power on earth. The Brits only let Wilson lay his bill of goods on us dumb Huns because they saw we’re actually buying his 14 points and we’re ready to commit seppuku for them. We (Austria-Hungary and Germany) weren’t beaten militarily, we just gave up. By the end of WWII when the Atlantic Charter happened the status quo changed *substantially.* The UK, just like Germany that almost won the war, was completely exhausted and could no longer hang on to its empire. The only man left standing was the US which is how and when it became top gun of the Anglosphere. And, yes, the Anglosphere does exist as the current wars prove it. Again, it was not suicide that rid humanity of the British Empire, it was WWII. “A great power is a nation or state that has the ability to exert its influence on a global scale” (wiki).
You wikied again!
@Sophist, cont.: Your trust in Ickypedia is… hmm… ‘touching’ after the Valleywag revelations (‘In spring 2008, Valleywag ran a series of articles on Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales, alleging that he traded favorable edits for sexual favors and donations to the Wikimedia Foundation http://bit.ly/DUZVP ) wouldn’t be the right word… ‘something else?’ The Dutch and the Portuguese exerted their influence on a global scale and were and are not great powers. China and Russia haven’t really and they were and are. Your idea of ‘great power’ only apply to England and Ashkenaz (a. k. a. ‘the Allies’). Spain too, maybe, once (upon a time…) “Without its maritime empire the UK wasn’t and isn’t,” The UK is part of the American Empire (Anglosphere) now so it still is, sort of. “Austria-Hungary was only able to exert its influence in the Balkans.” Austria-Hungary dominated much of Central and Southern Europe including Italy and had great influence in Russia and Spain and just as importantly *no other power dictated to Austria-Hungary* not even the British Empire. We were a great power that nobody can deny. “The Hungarian Kingdom of Louis the Great had been rather more influential.” Which doesn’t contradict anything I have said. (Ah, a Hungarian King of Jerusalem… The way things should be
@theLapp: “Why are you lying?” I am lying? In comment #11 above you wrote: ‘Jobbik startade en uniformerad svartskjorte-brigad som består av ca 2.000 aktiva melemmar, som brukar åka ut till olika byar med hög andel roma och demonstrera. Detta är avsett att skrämma romerna. Flera romer har också blivit skjutna med gevär på avstånd i natten och det finns ett uppenbart terrorist-motiv här…. ‘Jobbik, a uniformed blackshirt-brigade which consists of about 2.000 active members, which tend to go out to different villages with a high proportion of Roma and demonstrate. This is intended to intimidate the Roma. Many Roma have also been shot with a rifle from a distance at night and there are apparent terrorist motives here.’ Hedström echos this BS evoking images of Nazi Germany with black shirt Magyar Gárda ‘brigades’ marching everywhere: ‘På väg tillbaka till Budapest ser vi på en rastplats hur flera kraftigt byggda män samlas och kör i väg i en van. De bär Ungerska Gardets uniform – svarta byxor nedstoppade i svarta kängor, vita skjortor, svarta västar, svarta basebollkepsar… men även inne i Budapest ser vi flera personer i gardets uniform… On the way back to Budapest, at a rest area we see heavily built men gathered around a van. They wear Hungarian Guards uniforms – black pants tucked into in black boots, white shirts, black jackets, black baseball caps…. but also in Budapest, we see several people in the Guard uniform.”
Pavaszem,
“Austria-Hungary dominated much of Central and Southern Europe including Italy great influence in Russia and Spain”
That will explain why Austria-Hungary was formed a year after the Austrian Empire lost the Veneto in 1866 to the Kingdom of Italy and was itself dissolved after the loss of Trentino in 1919.
I think rather Russia had great influence in Austria-Hungary, it was afer all Russian Military power that prevented Hungarian independence in 1849.
Spain: really?
Austria-Hungary was a last gasp by the house of Habsburg, if they thought they could contine controlling the Hungarians with the stick rather than the carrot they would have done so.
Wikipedia maybe dodgy, but not as dodgy as your last post – I’m disappointed – its not enough to discredit the source, you have to discredit the proposition. For reference, the above came from Mrs Jill Lisk, my 3rd year History teacher.
16th C. Spain and Holland and the Ottoman empire 18th C. France 19th C. Russia and maybe even johnny come lately Germany are all good examples of great powers as per wikipedia, but I admit its a post-Columbus defintion. Either way AH doesn’t make it.
@theLapp, continued: the ‘heavily built men’ being Magyar Gárda snipers on the prowl no doubt taking out entire Gypsy families at night ‘from a distance’ and “molotovcocktails som kastas in i romska hem… often with Molotov cocktails thrown into the Roma home.” At the same time not a fucking word is written about a TSUNAMI of the most bloodcurdling crimes committed in Europe including mutilations (such as castrations with a razor) lynchings (teacher lynched in front of his two small daughters who narrowly escaped gang rape that the Gypsies kept promising their dad as they were kicking him to death) stabbings, torture murders. They prey on their own kind too although the hack bitch forgets to mention that the Molotov cocktails are usually thrown by Gypsy loan sharks on their debt peons shacks when they are late in their payments. The illegal gun trade is also dominated completely by Gypsies who are not in the habit of selling to Gadjos. An ordinary Hungarian can’t even get a slingshot. Hedström who is BTW is married to Henrik Brors, a. k. a. the Zionist Mouthpiece of Sweden, head of editorial policy at Dagens Nyheter, also forgets to mention that Csorba, the ‘innocent Roma victim’ had a criminal record of *very violent crimes* longer than I am tall.
Pavaszem, (cont.)
What’s your defintion of the Anglosphere? ’cause I’m working on a different one, a lot of James C. Bennet’s criteria equally to Holland, Scandinavia and even Switzerland which make me think its more of a Proto-sphere than an Anglo-sphere, but there you go more Anglo-saxon racial self-aggrandisement.
“it was not suicide that rid humanity of the British Empire, it was WWII.” Yes, But do think we would have thought WWII the way we did if Churchill hadn’t obtained the Atlantic Charter. And even so, continental Europe got the Marshall Plan, we got the Anglo-American loan. My Dad – for one – was all in favour in doing a deal with Hitler. Apparently, Hitler was up for it.
@theLapp, cont.: The TIMING of these so called ‘racist murders’ is also at least as suspicious as the bullshit mountain the cosmopolitan media’s laying on us. I can’t help thinking that Gypsies are killed by a not necessarily Hungarian government agency to counter the flood of more and more alarming news of increasingly horrific Gypsy crimes that the Procunsulate can no longer suppress. “Ingrid actually *was* in TATÁRSZENTGYÖRGY and spoke with the father of the killed” In what language? And she didn’t even write that she was there. She wrote that ‘DN was there.’ But why hasn’t ‘DN’ spoken to the daughters of the teacher that was lynched by a Gypsy mob? Or to the pensioners that were raped, tortured and robbed by Gypsy home invaders? Why didn’t she mention the Veszprém bloodbath http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veszpr%C3%A9m_stabbing Why doesn’t the bitch even mention the unmistakeably GYPSY crime wave that the most vulnerable segments of our society are exposed to while the police do NOTHING since law enforcement money is reserved for the protection of ‘our’ comprador Quisling ‘politicians’ only, while the victims of this crime wave are made out to be the villains by the Cosmopolitan media. This is sick, Sick and SICK. Insane sick. “Reality has never been your strong side.” Let me suggest a few places you can stick your ‘reality’ you goddamn disease.
I can’t help thinking that Gypsies are killed by a not necessarily Hungarian government agency to counter the flood of more and more alarming news of increasingly horrific Gypsy crimes that the Procunsulate can no longer suppress.
Pávaszem at August 5, 2009 6:15 PM
@Sophist: “Austrian Empire lost the Veneto” We lost most of Italy (“Sein Staatsgebiet umfasste die heutigen Staaten Österreich, Ungarn, Tschechien, Slowakei, Slowenien, Kroatien, Bosnien und Herzegowina, Teile des heutigen Rumäniens, Montenegros, Polens, der Ukraine, Italiens, und Serbiens.” http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96sterreich-Ungarn) i. e. all of Italy ceased to be a formal part of AH but remained part of our informal empire such as Hungary and Argentina were after the Paris tragedy an informal part of the British Empire until the Third (German) Empire liberated us. There remained a commonwealth and a communality between us and the Italians despite all the pseudo nationalist/ crypto-Freemason violence. In the 1920′s and 30′s most of my own relatives studied for at least a few years in Italy and were as fluent in Italian as they were in German. We vacationed in Italy. Venice was the most popular vacation destination in the Monarchy. Catholicism was also a strong bond, just look at all the Hungarian churches and institutions in Rome. It’s only natural that by the 1930′s we were again on the same side fighting the forces of evil
“Russian Military power that prevented Hungarian independence in 1849.” The Freemason rebels that the English tried to ride into Hungary were not Hungarian, most of them didn’t even know Magyar and had nothing to do with our independence. *Russian intervention prevented an early Trianon.*
@Sophist,continued: “AH doesn’t make it” Austria-Hungary was the largest country of Europe. Even your beloved Ickypedia calls AH:’a multi-national empire and *great power*’ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria%E2%80%93Hungary or just Google AH+great power and you’ll get 3,040,000 hits. My own definiton came from Margaret MacMillan. “Spain: really?” Really. Hapsburg dominated Spain. “Austria-Hungary was a last gasp by the house of Habsburg, if they thought they could contine controlling the Hungarians with the stick rather than the carrot they would have done so.” Which is how the English related to the Scots once and look who is whining now about the ‘Scottish Raj.’ Although I must admit that you have a point here: whenever your grip on power is loosening, you fall back on what’s second best: visions of cooperation and mutual benefit. It is one of the most sure fire signs of decline as it is evidenced by your extremely boring ‘PC’ bull. Wars also invariably accompany decline, QED ditto “What’s your defintion of the Anglosphere?” The Anglic speaking vassals of the Ashkenazim including the Scottish Raj?
“Atlantic Charter” Come on, Sophist, you can’t take these propaganda declarations at face value. The Atlantic Charter or Joint Declaration or whatever was nothing but the usual crock http://www.csub.edu/~gsantos/jpgs/img0055.jpg “My Dad – for one – was all in favour in doing a deal with Hitler” And so were the Mosleys… The *great* Lady Di…
@ReindeerFucker: “You are sure they are not Aliens?” I am sure they are every bit as alien as you are, Lapp… The FBI has been resident in Hungary since February, 2000. Agents of the Budapest Bureau of the FBI have access to all Hungarian government data, classified or not, supervise Hungarian law enforcement and courts, carry guns and make arrests, LEGALLY. Can they do that in Lapland? No? Are they aliens in Hungary? YES. Legal aliens but aliens. And the Scotland Yard is about to muscle in too looking for the same privileges, using Eva Rhodes murder as an excuse that was committed ironically by a Gyp but there is no ballyhoo over that, is there? No siree! After all, it’s OK to kill us. So, why is the Proconsulate so worried about the ‘Roma?’ Because the Gyp crime tsunami is not only destroying tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Hungarian lives (they are all for THAT) but it is unraveling the tapestry of lies (Pinter) we are ruled by. And I haven’t even mentioned the obscene joke of raiders, torturers and mass murderers criticizing *us* for 2 murders they can’t even prove we have committed.
@ReindeerFucker, cont.: In theory the government may have staged or played up these 2 murders so they can finally move against the Gypsy crime wave under the guise of ‘securing Gypsy areas’ although I doubt they have or would be willing to commit or regroup resources they need to protect the Quisling and his comprador whores (sounds like a rock band…) from the just anger of the Hungarian people. Anyway, say hi (hey?:) to Ingalill http://bit.ly/ufFqx and Kajsa http://bit.ly/Zbj3B for me, will you? After all these years you’ve been domestic partners shouldn’t you marry already? Think of the little chimera-reindeer!
Psz
“The Freemason rebels that the English tried to ride into Hungary were not Hungarian”
I liked this bit, so much I did a bit of googling:
Apparently, Kossuth and his boys did become masons: http://www.srmason-sj.org/council/journal/jun01/kruger.html
but not until “February 19, 1852″ which suggests it was nothing more than an exercise in drumming financial and political support in his exile.
Any more evidence of the 1848/9 rebellion being a freemasonry/anglosphere plot will be gratefully received.
PS my sister lived in Spain, finished her education there and speaks Spanish – does that make Spain part of the UK’s “informal empire”?
@Sophist: “not until February 19, 1852″ Not admitted to the *Cincinnati Lodge* until 2/1852. “nothing more than an exercise in drumming financial and political support” And, why would the first mason state of the Anglosphere (just look at their symbols! http://home.pacific.net.au/~ahw/eye_bill.jpg) be so interested in Košut’s agenda? You may also not appreciate how UNUSUAL was for a Slovak in those days to learn English (or for a Magyar? like Széchenyi, ANY Hungarian) unless we understand their interest in the UGLE From you link: “for he truly deserves the title of the Washington of Hungary” He sure does! Although GW was slightly less crooked (Árvapénz-ügy, Landerer-Metternich kapcsolat, stb.) “my sister… does that make Spain part of the UK’s informal empire” One sista doesn’t an informal empire make… THIS ‘English immigrants were not usually leaving England because of poverty or persecution, but went to Argentina as industrialists and major landowners. Argentina in the Victorian age was part of the United Kingdom’s informal empire, an independent nation that Britain had economic influence in, that was outside the British Empire.’ DOES ( according to Icky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Argentine ) Which is how we are colonized today. We need a Hungarian Perón…
54% call Jobbik “dangerous”
45% consider the party “outright fascist”.
The Nézőpont poll interviewed 1,000 adults from the 6th District!
Hi, how do I add your site to my rss reader?? I am using “Google Reader”, but it is not workin!!