The European Commission has no legal grounds to criticise Slovakia’s new language law, Leonard Orban, EC Commissioner for Multilinguism, said in a response to a Hungarian query, cited by Tuesday’s Nepszabadsag daily.
The EU has no ground to launch procedures against Slovakia under community law, although if the national law was considered to be a breech of one of the fundamental principles of the EU, such as human rights, the Commission could raise its voice, Orban said in response to a letter from Hungarian MEP Csaba Tabajdi.
Orban added, however, that “all European Union member states must guarantee the rights of persons belonging to a national minority with all possible means and Slovakia, too, must implement its State Language Act with this in mind.”
Tabajdi sought Orban’s opinion about Slovakia’s recently amended language law, which has strained Hungarian-Slovak relations as Hungarians perceive it as discriminatory on language use. Tabajdi said in the letter that the Slovak law, which prosecutes members of the minority for not using the state language in public situations, is against European norms.
Tabajdi told the paper that he interpreted Orban’s response to be a warning to Bratislava. However, he added that Orban failed to answer his concrete examples of breech of law, so he will turn to the Commission to ask for answers to his specific questions.
Orban’s response was the first EU reaction to the ongoing dispute between Hungary and Slovakia, which was assessed last week by the two countries’ prime ministers at a reconciliatory meeting. The prime ministers adopted a joint statement which outlined steps to amend relations, including the close monitoring of the effects of the new language law on the ethnic Hungarian community in Slovakia as seen in practice.
These people answering from the EU are like slippery
fish. What if they would need to face a fine up to
3000 euros in their own countries for using their
native language? Equal human rights in the EU? Freude, schöner Götterfunken?
Legalisms notwithstanding, yet another sign that we lack clout with the people that matter and who make the international rules. The business about the 3000 Euro fine would make such a law unconstitutional in many countries.
I’ve said it here before, and believe me, it gives me no pleasure to say this; but the business of us being taken seriously will have to be addressed by a future generation. From where are we, the Magyars of today, going to get the self generated wealth (not the borrowed kind) that gets us a respectful hearing in the halls of power? Don’t answer. The truth hurts too much.
@ Laci;
I know what you say is true and yes it does hurt. Just the other day, I was reading an article in a news magazine from Canada. Guess what the article was about? How the Roma’s are scared for their lives against the Hungarian “majority”.
I wanted to cry.
How the hell do you fight this shit when it’s coming from the inside and not just outside forces?
Hello Susan,
When you follow my post with yours, we are exposing two structural problems. The Magyar one, along with the Roma.
The Magyars, even without the Roma issue, have a problem. We don’t exist and we don’t count within the mental landscape of those who hold the wealth, guns and power in the world today. If you asked them on what continent the Hungarians reside on, many of them would just laugh and tell you they don’t know (along with the implication that they don’t care.) When we talk to the rich and powerful, they aren’t concerned with how we are getting on (or not getting on) with the Roma. (If they were candid, they would ask, “What the hell is a “Roma”?)Nor do they really care about Slovak-Hungarian relations, really.
Kedvesem; I don’t say this to be unpatriotic or disrespectful. But I have talked to enough of these people to tell you the sad news, that the “movers and shakers” of global policy not only don’t take Hungarians seriously, but they don’t take people from our part of the world seriously unless we have the ability to make weapons of mass destruction, or have a lot of sellable raw materials (i.e. the Russians.)
Our Roma issue is a sideshow within an irrelevant sideshow to these parties. It’s purely our problem, like our own destiny.
@ Laci;
Touche
the answer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVLIx1D8I-I
@ Stoica;
So whats your point? Proving that Americans are ignorant pigs?
Recognizing that maybe the up and coming generation(like that young boy in the video)will show enough intelligence that to maybe change things?
George!!!!!
I’m laughing my ass off! You are precious! I recall seeing this episode on a cable channel.
George is amplifying my previous point about how we don’t exist in the minds of the world at large.
It’s a scene from a “game show” where an adult blond woman was pitted against a 10 year old fifth grader. The question was worth $25,000 ( about 21,000 Euros!) and was:
“Budapest is the capital of what country?”
The adult woman guessed France, but wasn’t sure that France itself was a country(!). The “M.C” (Master of Ceremonies) assured her that it was. She went with France. Wrong! No $25,000 for her!
The MC told her that it was Hungary. She then says that she “never heard of Hungary”:, but she did hear of Turkey! The 5th grader did say Hungary, and won far more than the average Hungarian makes in a year!
In a sadly funny way, it proves my point. Susan, are you still there? Don’t ever let what is said in a Canadian newspaper make you cry! Just because the West has so much money and power, it doesn’t mean their people are smart! They will never know or care about us unless we make them, or give them reason to. The question could have been, “Belgrade is on what planet?”, or “Warsaw is on which continent?”; you would have gotten the same laughable ignorance.
It’s not a nice feeling to realize: “We Don’t Count”, but the answers can occasionally make you laugh.
George, I’d like to shake your hand!
Yeah Laci, I’m still here.
Befor you go on, please do not think that I am some pathetic, depressed individual that lurks about looking for negative press on Hungray so that I can drink too much wine and start crying! Although, sometimes I do get into the sauce!!
That being said, I actually first saw that video back about a year ago. The girl had been on American Idol, (good singer, really stupip). Maybe I’m uptight. I get sick of the jokes…are ya Hungary?? Like I’ve never heard that one at least a million times!!
I guess I would not be so offended if people knew of our history, our accomplishments etc and were just kidding around.
It’s the ignorance, and the lies and real intent to want to humiliate/defame/humble people that through out history were probably one of these most tolerent people.
That Laci is why when I see these type of videos I do not laugh. I just get pissed off all over again.
Kedves Zsuzsa,
I too get depressed and into my “sauce”. I appreciate your candor.
I have to moderate that in light of the fact that we are in a public forum. What we post here is read by many people, and may influence their impressions. When I’m here, I’m in my “Sunday suit”!
Can I be an optimistic Hungarian with you? My life experience has shown me that people as ignorant and clueless as the blond are impressionable and easily influenced, provided you influence the sources of their “information”.
Someday Hungarians will understand better the power of public relations, and how to “get our story” out to the world press. You really can make the world see you the way you want them to. This may sound cynical and Machiavellian, but all self empowered nations do this. It’s about time we joined the club.
I believe we can kick ass and we will someday. We have to “put ourselves on the map”. The responsibility for that lies not with the uneducated of the West, but with us. They already have their lives and their funny distractions; we have to make them know about us.
As a Hungarian patriot, I know we have faced far worse things in the past than a dumb blond who doeasn’t know anything. We are sad right now; but we are strong.
Now I’m crying.
Laci Bacsi; Oh wise one.
I could care less who sees/reads what I write for I never divulge information that can/will hurt me, unless I WANT people to know.
That being said, thank-you.
Off to the wine cellar for me!!!!! Just kidding!!
@justasking, Laszlo, – you would like Hungary to be taken as seriously by the West as
a. China
b. The US
c. Russia
d. Great Britain
e. France
f. Other countries with 10m population (Haiti, Dominican Republic, Guinea, Tunisia, Czech Rep)
I’m just curious!
@ george;
What the same hell does that mean?
Are you saying that a country with say less then 12 mil should be cast aside and their voices/concerns not heard? Do you hear yourself when you talk or is there just a general type buzzing noise?
Of all the things that I have seen and heard on this sight and let me tell ya VT and C’est moi have come up with some humm dingers…you have officially taken the cake for the most asinine/gob smaking/retared statement I have heard!!!
Viking Troll, Please forgive me! I thought that you by far were the most disinterested infacts,talking out of your ass kind of guy; but, I was wrong. Forgive me for some of the things that I said and thought about you!
CURIOUS GEORGE is now the new dido of this site!!
Everybody join me in requesting that CURIOUS GEORGE now be known as George, George, George of the Retards…GGGR for short!!!!!!!!
@justasking – It’s a simple question. You are always complaining that the West doesn’t take Hungary seriously. Which one country would you want for Hungary to be taken as seriously as? What’s wrong with Tunisia?
sincerely
GGGR
To szbobita and others who think the EU should ride in and fix the Slovak Language law.
Exactly how do you imagine this?
Are you ready to give up Hungarian statehood to Brussels, or is it just Bratislava that should do that?
The normal procedure in today’s EU is that a National Law is judged in the National courts, after that a person can take that court verdict to the non-EU court of ‘European Court of Justice’ (ECJ).
This procedure takes about 5-10 years.
If a EU member state does not follow a decision from the ECJ, then the other member states can put sanctions on that country. That process probably takes another 1-5 years.
The alternative is a Federal EU, where a Federal Court can over-rule lower courts, like National courts. This Federal EU are we far away from the moment.
To Viking:
The EU does have certain basic principles and
standards which members are required to follow. All
the countries had to comply with these principles
for example regarding the way they relate to human
rights and they treat ethnic minorities to gain
admission to the EU. This fact does not mean that
the member countries had to give their statehood to
Brussels.
A deficiency of the EU is that – as you described -
the mechanisms which ensure that member countries
will follow these basic principles also after they
have joined the EU have not been worked out very
well yet.
Hello Mr. Curious George,
Along with increasing wealth and power come certain perks. Nations on your list letters a through e are further along than us in terms of economic activity and enterprise. Our being grouped along with the “f” nations on your list is what I would like for us to evolve away from. A country doesn’t always need a huge population or large territory; look at the example of the Netherlands or Denmark. About our size, but much much higher GDP.
With wealth comes power, and power can be misused. Hence three of the nations on your list, the US, China and France, are subject to public relations black-eyes in terms of their foreign policy. The Hungarians are hardly going to be invading the Middle East, or forcibly occupy a region as large as Tibet, or conduct nuclear tests in their South Pacific “colonies”!
What richer nations do much better than the Magyars, is influence the media and public impression of their nations. The world press is easily manipulated, especially if you have in place the people and resources with which to do this.(China spends a fortune running TV ads telling people what a great place it is to visit and invest in!) As a people, we are utter novices at this sort of thing, and as for influencing foreign politicians, Hungarians wouldn’t know how to “lobby” their way out of a paper bag.
At the end of the day, money talks louder than anything. Those nations that have a lot of it do get more respect than those that don’t
@Laszlo – Ah! Denmark & the Netherlands – You want Hungary to be treated like 2 countries which symbolize the epitome of tolerance & acceptance.
Do you honestly feel these 2 countries along with Finland, Austria and Sweden (to name a few others) bought their way to success, and try to influence the world’s opinions of them by lobbying? If anything, they have tried to focus their efforts on improving their country, and NOT worrying about what the world thinks of them.
France, China and Russia have the size, resources, recognition (veto) and money to get their own way more than “influence” world opinion. Not many people buy that propaganda bit about China. Their actions towards China are driven more by economic considerations rather than lobbying.
Don’t you think Hungary would be better off emulating your European brothers’ approach rather than China’s? If you agree, what are you waiting for? Yes, I know you still have to deal with returned emigres like justasking (& others) who are still stuck in a timewarp banging their tin cans more rather than contributing, but what’s your excuse? I’m just curious.
@ Curious;
And you know some much about me and my contributions…How? Just curious.
Ah George, so much curiousity! You must drive your girlfriends crazy dude!
As I said earlier in this thread, the task of really getting our nation up and running is going to lay in the future. I don’t see it happening now, and I say this as a realist. In my world travels I’ve seen a lot of other nations that are in this predicament.
I see influence peddling and media spin control, not as goals, but as an option to be used at will. It can’t be an option if you don’t have resources and sophistication. Those are aquired over time, along with the economic development that supports it. To have your concerns taken seriously by other powerful nations, you have to have proven value to their own interests, and a strong player in the world economy.
The problem with comparing so many nations in one breath is that they each are a complex set of circumstances in their own right. We can never be a China, and no, I wouldn’t want to emulate their political system, with one party rule.
I see economic stagnation as a Pandora’s box of ills. It is our biggest problem at the time. Countries like Denmark, Netherlands and Austria have a different history than Hungary. They are very nice places, but no, I don’t see us becoming like them anytime soon. But if we don’t rise, we sink. That worries me.
In the past, whenever I say something to the effect that Hungarians should learn lobbying and media inflence, I get concerned posts from some. For the most part, these are addressed to me in a respectful fashion. I like that and will always respond in like kind, because when I post, I don’t just talk to the individual to whom I am responding, but to the community as well.
I believe that this is a competitive world. Every man/nation for himself. I don’t want Hungarians to be without influence. Neither do I begrudge these perogatives from our neighbors. Let the Serbs, Romanians and Slovaks buy US politicians, and whisper into their ears. Let them buy influence with the world media. I believe they would be fools not to do it. I just don’t think that any of the nationalities of the Carpathian basin, and that includes us, are good at this sort of thing. Our history is that of serfdom, autocracy and dictatorship, and we will need generations to overcome that legacy. The idea that a ruling class anywhere can be bought, told what to think and slapped around goes against our historical experience.
Until these poples evolve more economically and develop a greater sense of cooperation and interdependence, competition, distrust and behind the scenes manouvering will be the order of the day. If you don’t do it, the next guy will.
Should it be this way? After WW1, there was talk of a Transdanubian Federation. It didn’t fly then, and I don’t think it possible now.
@Dear Laszlo – so much apathy! You should read The Singapore Story by Li Kwan Yu, the prime minister of Singapore. He wrote how Singapore was kicked out of Malaysia in 1965, and decided to prioritize their economic development for survical, and then to become a developed nation, despite having no natural resources, no trained manpower, no foreign investments, and not even water which they had to import (they still dont have their own water, & drink their own recycled piss now. To compound things, the British left a couple of years later, and they were ,without an army sandwiched between 2 not so friendly neighbouring countries, and a mixed population which was racially separate. They were willing to use anyone’s approach, so long as it was positive and it worked.
So no, I dont see Hungary’s situation as dire as you make it out to be. They only thing I see lacking is motivation among Hungarians for POSITIVE action. Having pessimistic emigre imports cant be helpful, either.
You are right. Each country has their own history, limitations and resources. Strangely, I’m actually quite positive about Tunisia & the Czech Republic. I feel these countries understood their limitations (history, religion etc), used their resources efficiently, and have developed a positive approach despite their own problems. They may not be Denmark in the near future, but I feel they will be happy with their success, and their pace of progress will not hinder them from developing even more.
Apologies, the above post was from me.
The scary thing about your lobbying approach is that it puts aside the need to address urgent issues. I personally feel that it also feeds on the ‘kis kapu’ mentality in Hungary It goes something like this “If I cant get something directly, I’ll go through a back door and buy my way in” (I dont speak Hungarian, so I apologize if it is wrongly presented)
I’ve nothing against lobbying. But I think there is a time and place for that, and it should not be used as a divergence from addressing the issues (unless, of course, you are China or Russia).
Hi George,
I found out that when you post without a username, it shows up as “Anonymous”. It happened to me once.
I’ve written quite a bit about the need for economic development. And, yes, motivation is missing right now. Thsi I think arises from our cultural and historical context. I don’t know what the cure is, because we are so divided as a people as to what would work.
I’m not saying lobbying is a substitute for the other important things, nor should it be the only thing. There perhaps you misunderstand me.
Influencing others is a necessity and an act of self preservation. Whenever there is something to be gained (or lost) it occurs. This is true for people, organization and nations.
Don’t forget that media and political pursuation may serve different goals. Running ads telling people to invest in your country, or to visit it serves a constructive goal. Singapore does it. I think perhaps you see this in purely back-stabbing terms, like a Ribbentrop-Molotov thing.
Finally, sometimes it’s the great powers that want to intrude on us, not the other way around. That has happened to a lot of nations. When it does, it’s good to be able to do something about it on their home front.
What a tangled web we weave when at first we try to deceive?
Language law or, the law of language?
Repossessed homes, no jobs, spiralling inflation,
poor transport and roads, catastrophic tax system,
and indifferent means of collecting same, desolatevillages where only the gypsies venture.
Enormous loans from the IMF/EU which disappear without trace but remain on the balance sheet for a considerable time to come.
All gloom and doom I know, but Hungary should never have gotten into the social and economic decline it now finds itself in.
Laci, your tolerant and clear-thinking views are well received! Hungary needs, for a change, a great leader and a “solid” government that are
able to introduce reforms across the board
that should go someway to stemming
the infectious, corrupt practices that engulf
us like a raging fire.
Foreign investment and investors? Yes! But
hold the trashburgers, skyscrapers, and cheap
imports – in every sense of the word.
Where, and more to the point, when, do we start…???
Hello Paranoid Android!
Thank you for the compliment. When you say that I have tolerant and clear thinking views, much of the credit I will give to respecting the elders of our race and listening to them. The old peasant men and women were my role models for keeping my head on straight. When I was child, I knew many of them and would listen to their life wisdom and experiences. They were not well educated or well read people, but that doesn’t mean they were stupid. They suffered through conditions that many here have never lived through, and yet kept their sanity, clarity of mind and even good humor.
Most of these dear people are now gone, but if they could come back and see the Hungary of today, they would laugh and think they were in a luxury spa!
I suppose the people of today are more discontent, and give in to resentment more, because they sense there is a better life possible, (although they are not always sure how to attain it). Our old people lived under systems and regimes that didn’t let folks hope and dream of a better life. We lived this way for almost a 1000 years. Our ancestors nonetheless stayed sane and kept functioning.
Let’s never forget where we come from.
@Laszlo – That last post was a beautiful one in remembering your elders, and what many of the ‘common people’ went through for Hungary. I often get the same feeling when I listen to one of my favourite songs, No Man’s Land (or the Green Fields of France,) and wonder why it so often takes conflict & misery before people start to act to address a problem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntt3wy-L8Ok .
I remember what my grandfather and father went through in their lifetimes to make life better for me and my generation, and I often think, if what I am doing now, is going to make it better for the next generation.
I would like to know your opinion on what you think Hungarians could do NOW (in the next 1-2 years) to start to improve the situation inside Hungary. How do you think we expats can help? I”m just curious.
Hello Mr. George!
Thank you. What I was describing about our Hungarian elders of course goes for most any other European nationality as well, especially those nations east of Germany, where feudalism lasted longer.
When you corner me into a 1-2 year time frame, then a bit of the pessimist comes out in me. If we do anything at all that benefits the countries’ economic situation, then I believe it will have been by pure accident.
Doing something constructive takes leadership, both in the govt. and private sector. That takes vision as well as the ability to pursuade others. I think the majority is now quite disenchanted with our post 1989 performance, and is withdrawing into xenophobia, disengagement with the outside world; the very “kis kapu” mentality that you mentioned previously.
Our nation has recieved large sums of money from the west, both before and after communism, which our ruling class did not know what to do with. When you give a lot of money to someone, either of two things will happen; they will blow it and spend it, or they will make it grow. I suppose there we are not alone; many other countries have been like that, but none of them are role models of development for us.
Your question is a fair one though, and I could make some suggestions:
(con’t)
(cont for George)
1) Get the leaders of our private sector and govt together and get them to hammer out what our comparative strengths are. What can we sell, what can we market, and develop a plan for how to do it.
2)Use the foreign media to increase our visibility and brand recognition both as a nation and for our products. In a post dialogue with Zsuzsa/aka justasking, we talked about a game show blond who lost out on a $25,000 question, because she never heard of our country. I take that as a sign of warning; we need to work on our visibility before the world.
3)Develop venture capital sources. We can both ask wealthy Hungarians to pool their money for this purpose, and we can solicit such money from elsewhere. These funds should go to our people who show signs of having a good idea and plan, but who lack the millions it would take to start a decent business. I would like to see Hungarians with mgt. experience, partner with another Hungarian who is a scientist or engineer with a product idea, and get the millions they need to start rocking and rolling.
4)Do an audit to see where so many of these millions of Euros given to us by the EU and others have gone, and see if any is left or recoverable for funding the above mentioned points.
5)Educate our youth to become technocrats, managers and entrepeneurs. Find them, fund them and reward them. Both the private sector and govt. should provide scholarship money. They are our future.
(cont for George)
6)Reach out to the millions of overseas Hungarians and their decsendents, and ask them to buy our bonds and stocks in Hungarian ventures. Years ago, while travelling, I chanced upon a Jewish Rabbi who sold bonds for Israel, which were very eagerly bought by Jewish people everywhere he went. They felt it was their racial duty and obligation.
This sure made ME think! Why the hell don’t we do something like that? I’m all for turning loose Hungarian clerics, from the Primate on down to a Lutheran minister (let this bunch do something really useful for a change!) on overseas Hungarians. Hungarian govt bonds; bonds for Hungarian owned private corporations, municipal bonds issued by our county and city entities, our school systems, you name it. Stocks, stock funds; etc. If we can’t find enough willing clerics, then find the right people to do this.
This world is awash with money, whatever they say about a global recession. I want more of it to go into Hungarian hands, under our control, so that we can start to really develop our potential as a people and nation.
Laci
@Laszlo – Thanks for your outlining your suggestions to my question. Some of your suggestions seem very realistic, and possibly even workable in the short-medium term. I’m particularly keen on #1, #3 and #5.
I am with you when you state that Hungarian industry competitiveness should be the first priority. What do you really think Hungary is competitive in (ie able to compete internationally or even regionally without subsidies). I tend to disregards most of the nationalistic posters here on this. This is not an easy question to answer, and most dont have the capability to answer this question objectively. It really needs to come from a few captains of industry who understand the capabilities in other countries (probably manage an international company), and are objective about comparative Hungarian capabilities. It should be left to these industry heads to speak with a common voice to convince the govt to put funding into these sectors to really develop these capabilities even if it is not within their own industries. I find that fora where the govt tries to identify these sectors together with the private sector usually ends up with the private companies trying to seek funding for their own sectors. Would it not be possible for a group of ‘loyal’ Hungarians to identify 10-15 captains of industry who are willing to look at planning for Hungarian competitiveness over the next 10 years without being influenced by politics or self interest.
Cont’d
#3, #5 – I think that some of these people, including other Hungarian individuals can also initiate a development/scholarship fund for creative and ‘talented’ Hungarians to pursue research and knowhow in specifically outlined areas identified by this group. .
These talented Hungarians can use their new talents/output to serve specific Hungarian interests for a limited timeframe. I think if it is possible to have a group of Hungarians who are willing to manage a pool of money for Hungarian interests purely on merit/talent/aptitude and not on kiskapu or politics, I feel that there can be progress seen within 5 years in specific areas. I recall that you were involved in financial matters. Is it not possible to identify a few of such people, and some funding for this. I believe that there are Hungarians/foreigners who would be willing to invest in this if it is managed transparently and with specific goals. I also see any talented Hungarians students being nurtured by industry mentors or recommended for intensive internships in overseas companies even for short durations. A Hungarian talent development agency could certainly help in nurturing a new ‘breed’ of technocrats & managers of international capabilities.
#4 Audit – yes. I hope this can be done by a non-political international organization with full disclosre to the public rather than by a new govt who would also have their own agenda beside trying to discover wrong-doing.
#5 Media – unfortunately, I dont think a media blitz will achieve much other than make some ad companies rich. Bad publicity travels more than good publicity. My friends & family who don’t follow developments in Hungary called me up to ask if Hungary and Slovakia were on the verge of war when the Pres was denied entry. I assured them that wasn’t the case. To me some of this was plain common sense. If Hungary and Slovakia didnt’ have good relations, and there was no high level visit in the past 8 years, then a visit for this purpose was plain dumb. I wouldn’t have felt such if relations were good. It would be good if Hungary could work on demonstrating some unique and achieved positives which would be picked up by international media, rather than publicising some canned message.
#6 Using religious influence – I don’t know how feasible this will be as I am not familiar with this. Mismanagement of such funds can be even worse for Hungary’s ‘ethnic’ interests. I think the Jews have developed a strong formal & informal infrastructure for such money to be channeled. I don’t see a similar possibility for Hungary where trust is a big issue.
Mr. Leonard Orban, EC Commissioner for Multilinguism, thank you for taking thet time to look into the Slovak language law issue. But there is an elephant in the room that you do not see. The human rights of the ethnic Hungarians in Slovakia have been breached ever since the Treaty of Trianon was imposed on them in 1920. This new Slovak language law is “adding insult to injury”. The fundamental problem here is that the primarily ethnic Hungarian region of southern Slovakia should be administered by Hungary, and not by Slovakia. If there is an official language to be imposed onto the primarily ethnic Hungarians, it should be Hungarian, not Slovak!