The small liberal Free Democrats support that members of the Hungarian minority in other countries should – on certain conditions – be granted Hungarian citizenship, chairman Attila Retkes told reporters on Wednesday.
“All people who consider themselves Hungarian and want Hungarian citizenship, should be granted that status,” Retkes said. He added, however, that it was important that applications should be handled on an individual basis and that the move should not inflict on the bond Hungarians have with the country in which they live.
Retkes added that there should be “appropriate talks” with the relevant countries and international organisations preceding any measure taken by Hungary in respect of the granting of preferential citizenship.
At the initiative of the World Federation of Hungarians a referendum was held on the issue in Hungary in 2004, but it was rendered invalid due to poor turnout.
I wonder what Attila is up to. Is he suggesting that this “Hungarian citizenship” just be a symbolic gesture? Are they trying to make up for the times that nothing was said of behalf of the minority Hungarians in other countries when there could have been?
What does ” appropriate talks” mean anyway?
I do not see how it could be anybodies business, especially the country that a person lives in if the individual chooses to accept a duel citizenship if they qualify.
I do not see how it could be anybodies business, especially the country that a person lives in if the individual chooses to accept a duel citizenship if they qualify.
justasking at September 25, 2009 1:16 AM
—-
Some countries does not accept that their citizens get any other citizenship, like Sweden before 2004. If Swedish authorities got information that you had taken out another citizenship, they immediately revoked the Swedish citizenship. This is up to each country to handle the way they want.
To give out citizenship to people living in other countries is though not normal procedure, or do you have such an example?
To give out citizenship to people living in other countries is though not normal procedure, or do you have such an example?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Habsburg
Otto lives in Bavaria in Germany, and is a citizen of Germany, Austria, Croatia and Hungary.
Germany gave Otto citizenship because of his long ‘holiday stay’ there. The other 3 citizenships he has because he is the ‘crown prince’ of these countries.
Do the ethnic Hungarians have to complete any residency requirement in Hungary like Otto did in Germany?
As far as I can tell, only Israel gives citizenship
en masse to ‘ethnic’ people with no residency requirements.
To be quite honest, I don’t know how I feel about dual citizenship. I feel that you have to have an honest to God connection to both countries before they are awarded. Not, “Gees, I like paprika, I think I’ll apply for a Hungarian passport”.
In Canada, you have people that have passports that don’t even come back here at all; but, do expect the Canadian Government to bail them out when needed. Example when Isreal was bombing Lebanon, we sent out a boat and brought back here a shit load to the cost of 95 millions dollars to the tax payers, only to have them fuck off back not a month later. That type of abuse should not be allowed. Especially when they themselves had not paid a penny in taxes in Canada.
I’m okay with a “Hungarian passport of Distinction” where you are recognized as being a Hungarian but that is all you get. You have no accsess to benefits that a tax payer in Hungary has.
This dual/Hungarian citizenship is a GREAT
idea…I mean thinking of it from the Romanian
point of view (I am an ethnic romanian).
1.
Romania now won’t oppose it because the older
hungarians in Romania have anyway got used to the
minority status and they can’t care less of
receieving it now, it is too late, it would have
meant something in 1990.
But the younger hungarians will take it gladly and
(because of youth and mobility) use it to
immigrate in Hungary.
A wonderful chance to speed up the process of
getting rid of a troublesome and very moblized
politically ethnic minority.
2. Nowdays the Szekely fight for some sort of
ethnic-teritorial autonomy in Szekely-Land where
they are the absolute majority but the Romanians
oppose this strongly. The fact that now such group
will have Hungrian citizenship will make the
refuse all more motivated and reasonable to EU
since such an autonomy would be now equivalent to
losing territory to Hungary.
But this is “nem, nem, soha” for the romanians,
“only over our dead bodies” as they use to yell
when they think about revising Trianon and ceding
even 1 square-centimeter from Erdely to Hungary.
All is perfect.
If the Hungarians can let half of Nigeria in and give them citizenship then why not Hungarians from outside the home borders!
@John Simpson. How many of these drug dealer, credit card scammers, people trafficing and generally obnoxious loud-mouths have received Hungarian passports? Four years ago i would only see about one a week, now it is one every ten minutes. I thought you had to live here six or seven years before you can apply for a passport.
Gheorghe Stoica,
From economic perspective I would have thought your senario would be bad for Romania:
You lose the young: because “the younger hungarians will take it gladly and (because of youth and mobility) use it to immigrate in Hungary” but they take their labour and their taxes with them
You keep the old: “the older
hungarians in Romania have anyway got used to the
minority status” and no doubt have to continue providing them with pensions and healthcare.
The young are political and all vote. They also represent the next generation of Hungo trouble for Romania. I would think that that would be a good enough reason to want to see then leave.
@ Stocia;
Funny how you go on about the “troublesome Szekely” people. How they have the never to want “ethnic-territorial Autonomy”. Just because they are the descendents of Attila’s Huns and were already in this area when Arpad arrived!
If you ask me, you want to see/meet true patriotic Hungarians…go to Erdely. They are the ones through both history as well as location managed to kepp their shit together.
No, this is where you give me the history lesson on the theory of the Daco-Roman continuity, supposed ancestors of the Romanians…living in Transylvania from 106BC to 275AD right. Lets ignore the fact that none of this is supported by history, no archeological proof, no reminates of cities, roads, nothing. Lets just ignore the fact that from 275 AD to 1200 is when your first appearance in Transylvania is first mentioned.
We you not called Wallachians by both your own people and others before 1861?
The only reason why the Allied powers even gave you part of Banat and Eastern Hungary was because they knew that would further ruin Hungary.
You should be proud of Mr. Bratianu though, with all his creative accounting and census taking when representing to the Allied forces exactly how many Hungarians were living in that area. Google Lloyd George…who admited that because of the false data presented by Romania most of their decisions was based on them.
Of course you want the Szekelys gone…your worst fear is boarder revision or better yet, the truth about YOUR
cont’
false claims on that area. As I said before the Hungarians of Hungary, in my poinion, can learn a thing or 2 about keeping up ones language and culture by the Szekelys.
Heres a little advise, take it for what its worth. Romania will NEVER get rid of this ethnic minority. And as for you chanting ” only over our dead bodies” remember this
“If you sit on down by the river and wait long enough…you will see the bodies of your enemies float by”
@Justasking
Also the culture is so rich, and interestingly the Rovas writing is so close to Sumerian.
Touché, well said, agree 100% that Szekelys are the coolest people, I met so many and they know how to party
@Gheorghe Stoica,
From economic perspective I would have thought
your senario would be bad for Romania:
Yes, it is in some sense but it has to be balanced
against the gain : getting rid of a politically
powerful and disrutpting ethnic minority (they
have been part in the RO gov. coalitions for the
last 10 years, until this year)
But that’s the game Hungary has played (and keep
playing since 1990 )with the hungarians in
Transilvania ( and this is against the Hungarian
Constitution, btw) : it tries to attract them to
Hungary and thus preserve the ethnic-magyar
character of the State. The demographics, birth-
rate is very bad 1.3 (2 minimum for population
maintainance)so they need those “lost” beyond
borders so as to compensate for an rapidly aging
population.
And same game is Romania (which has the same
problem with demographics of ethnic romanians) is
playing with Bessarabia (Rep. Moldova) using
exactly the same double-citizenhip trick for many
yeras.
That’s why I said that the Romanians would not
react this time al all to the this dual-citiz
issue : because they have started playing this
game themselves for some 5 years already and they
know its consequences and limits.
Thus, for the first time in history, the Hunagry
and Romania have a common interes : one to get and
one to get rid.
@ Law;
How are you? Have not talked to you for a bit. I really should proof read before I send. Make mental note to ones self!
So, is there *any* place in old Hungary where the ‘Hungarians’ were not first?
@ Viking;
As I said before, the Hungarians were in the Carpatian Basin first. This is their ancient land. How many more times do I have to tell you???
You act as if Hungary is claiming the entire European continent. NO, just the Carpathian basin. So stop being such a little shit.
@Justasking
How about you? by the way i smell a Troll.
I’m well,I had a busy week, also went to Dr. Varga Tibor előadása Budapesten a Magyarok Házában, he is quite fascinating to listen too, all about St Istvan and the Hungarian Kings, and tommorrow there will be a presentation on Herbal plants found within the Carpathian basin which Im planning to go along to, plus relax at my favourite Nemzeti Cafe next to the Magyarok Házá.A relaxing weekend no grappling just rest and a few drinks with friends
Gheorghe Stoica
“it tries to attract them to
Hungary and thus preserve the ethnic-magyar
character of the State”
There isn’t much of a question mark of the ethnic-Magyar character of the Hungarian State. The only significant minority are the Roma, and in line with your earlier posts on that subject, they are not too bothered about their own ethnic identity and an estimated 2/3rds of them sign the census as Magyar.
I’m more doubtful about the Hungarian state actively trying to attract ethnic Hungarians from elsewhere in the carpathian basin. As an English immigrant to Hungary in the mid-nineties I was shocked to find ethnic Hungarians standing in the same “dirty foreigner” lines as me while applying for residency. I would have thought that given the history the Hungarian Government would be falling over themselves trying to give these people a warm welcome. cf ethnic Germans returning to Germany. My conclusion was that the Hungarian state would prefer them to stay, and preserve the Hungarian character of the lands of the crown of St Stephen.
I’ve also be very impressed by the quality of the Transylvanian immigrants I’ve met – as a colleague and a teacher – their hard work and their initiative. I have to wonder how many families stay and how many continue on to Western Europe or elswhere.
“I’m more doubtful about the Hungarian state
actively trying to attract ethnic Hungarians from
elsewhere in the carpathian basin.”
You shouldn’t. In between the 1992-2002 census the
hungarian population of Transilvania dropped from
1.6 to 1.4 milion–the “missing ones” were mostly
young who left (mostly) for Hungary.
The hungarian university in Translivania
“Sapientia” is funded by the Hu-Gov and it
prepares its abslovents for the hungarian work-
market..even high-school students are “targeted”
with programs for doing their studies in Hunagry.
The interests at stake, their underlying etno-
demografic and economic reasons are rather obvious
(Romania does exactly the same with R.Moldova).
@ Law;
Not much this weekend, nothing as exciting as you. Sticking around the house, finishing up on some stuff that I have been ignoring as of late.
I pretend that if I don’t see the laundry and the ironing (by shutting the door to the laundry room) then they don’t exist. Only the thing is now, the kids are running around naked! Just kidding, it’s not that bad.
Apu wants me to do some baking ( I hate baking) and then I’ll be off visiting Anyu at the cemetary. Thats about it.
Enough of the “troll” smelling. I thought that we all kind of called a truce on the name calling.
As I said before, the Hungarians were in the Carpatian Basin first. This is their ancient land. justasking at September 25, 2009 10:58 PM
—
Did ‘Hungarians’ come from anywhere else, or God just created them in the Carpathian Basin?
@ Viking;
Sarcasim does not suite you! The came from the East, Asia as a matter of fact.
And the land was empty?
@ Viking;
Maybe it was and maybe it wasn’t. I don’t know I was not there.
I think we have to assume that the land was not empty, such a big part in the middle of Europe.
Meaning 2 things:
1) Home-land is where you come from, like born, not moving to.
2) Occupying land means you accept the theory of the stronger has right. And is that not what happened in Trianon? Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
@ viking;
Okay, if we are talking about being “born” into a land, how far do you go back, 8000 BC (during the Neolithic revolution) 10,000 BC (beginning of Copper age)?
As for Trianon, it was not a situation of occupation like during the Turks, or the Hapsburgs. It was a situation of France and England not ever wanting to be threatened by a central European force ever again.
Again, what/who gave them the right to divide up a country at will? The same “family” of people that thought it was okay to give Israel, Palestinian land?
We only need to go so far back in time when the ‘Hungarians’ came to the Carpathian Basin. You stated yourself that they came from the East, so they were not sprung out of the Earth *in* the Carpathian Basin.
So in that sense they were immigrants to the Carpathian Basin at what ever time they now arrived there.
Then we come to the next level in our understanding – *When* did the ‘Hungarians’ arrive at the Carpathian Basin?
When w speak about ‘Hungarians’ I know it is not a homogeneous group having a NationalState called Hungary, that is why I call them ‘Hungarians’ and not Hungarians.
The NationalState came with Istvan Kiraly taking power and aligning himself and the new Hungarian NationalState with the Vatican, as so many other NationalStates in Europe were created in that time.
Obviously, at least the leaders of, the different people living in Europe at that time thought it was better to get back and cooperate through the Vatican, than to continue the mess that was after the fall of Rome.
Magyar Speaking people have always been in the Karpathian Basin
Magyar Speaking people have always been in the Karpathian Basin
Attilla at September 26, 2009 9:27 AM
—
So the claims that they come from somewhere else, let it be around Ural or Iran are then false.
In what sense could such a totally different language evolve, when the people surrounding the Carpathian Basin spoke/speak such different languages?
How would then this match Law’s theory of the Sumerian being somewhat connected to the Magyars?
@ Viking/Attila;
Sorry, Attila you are right. I should have worded it the way you did, Magyar speaking people have always been in the Carpathian Basin. Although, the way I look at it Magyar speaking/Magyar people are one in the same…semanics’.
What you are trying to do Viking, is trying to show that there is a difference when there is not. Yes there was different “tribes”; but, they were all still Magyar, speaking the same language.
The Carpathian Basin itself was formed roughly 500 million years age, completely under water up until 7 million years ago. It became inhibitable after the Pliocene age.
Skeletons of Cro-magnon(35000 years ago) have been found in this area.
Proto Szekel( ancestors of the Szekely culture) dating back 6000-5000BC archeological findings in the Banat.
It is from these people the Magyars began, from HERE the Carpathian Basin. From HERE they went elsewhere and branched out, that is why Sumerian(as Law had said), Huns, Avars and Magyars are all connected. The all speaked the SAME language.
Now we have that cleared, please address the 2 half of your statement when you said that thing about Triannon and the “occupation” of Hungary. I’m really curious what you have to say.
Skeletons of Cro-magnon(35000 years ago) have been found in this area.
Proto Szekel( ancestors of the Szekely culture) dating back 6000-5000BC archeological findings in the Banat.
It is from these people the Magyars began, from HERE the Carpathian Basin. From HERE they went elsewhere and branched out, that is why Sumerian(as Law had said), Huns, Avars and Magyars are all connected. The all speaked the SAME language.
justasking at September 26, 2009 5:40 PM
—-
Well the earliest “Hungarian/Magyar” can then be found in (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3129654.stm).
It is amazing that just looking at a piece of a jaw they know it spoke “Magyar”.
And all these different people, from different places in the world spoke the language of the Szekely.
–
Or Hungarian is just a Uralic language, more specifically a Ugric language; the most closely related languages are Mansi and Khanty of western Siberia.
Today the Uralic family is considered one of the best demonstrated large language families, along with Indo-European and Austronesian.
—
To think that everything started in Szekler-land and spread over the EuroAsian continent, to later return in form of invading troops 2-3.000 years later, still speaking the “SAME language”, seems a bit forced to say the least.
Viking;
That’s it? Because you can not see it happening, then it’s not true…” a bit forced”.
And your opinion of Trianon…we were to talk about?
justasking,
Check (http://www.comp-archaeology.org/AgricultureOrigins.htm)
–
It is currently accepted that agriculture reached Central and Western Europe by two routes. One agricultural movement from the Near East followed the Mediterranean and is thought to be traceable by a Cardial-Impressed pottery. Reaching the Mediterranean Coast of Italy and France a northward progress from these pottery using groups unfolded around 6000-5600 cal BC.
-
The other general route seems to have led from the Near East, probably across Greece to Hungary. There agriculture reached the expanses of the lower Tisza drainage near the Danube between 6400 – 6100 cal BC, as indicated by dates for C14 dates of monochrome Köros-type pottery. The development of Starčevo-Körös-Criş [Starcevo-Koros-Cris] culture in parts of the Carpathian Basin is followed by Bandkeramik pottery in Hungary, Austria and adjacent regions of the Danube Basin, after about 5700/5600 cal BC, implying either a moratorium on on expansion, or a very gradual, but continued spread along the Upper Danube River and its tributaries.
The evidence thus implies that there was a roughly simultaneous switch to domesticates in Central and Western Europe around 5500 cal BC. This period seems to be a critical phase for the spread of farming into the central latitudes of Europe, leading to a meeting of eastern and western agriculturist.
—
What is the proof that these groups of people who adopted agriculture spoke “Hungarian”?
@justasking – http://tinyurl.com/ye23kj5
Sophist asked you on Sept 2 for links or evidence on the following:
“DNA evidence Danubian 1 and 2 stages-Proto-Szekels-direct decendents of modern day Szekels and Hungarians in the Carpathian Basin,back in 6000BC loads of skelatins, artifacts have been found, proving the ancient culture of Hungarians”
“The Slavs were brought into the Carpathian Basin by ” equestrian people” as “sclavus” latin for slave, servant and the orgin of the present word Slav from the Samaratian Dessert. And who you ask were these Equestrian people? Bingo, The Magyars”
“As you may not know, the Magyars are related to the Huns, Szekels, Avars again they all speak the hungarian language”
Might be a good time to provide those links.
@Viking;
Prove that they did’nt!
@ Kreston;
I have not seen a website with this info on it. I read this stuff in books. I gave a list of books a few days ago, it’s somewhere on this site.
When we were talking about the “Slavs” in that piece that you are refering to, I was talking about Slovakias slavs.
@Sophist: “dirty foreigner lines” Is that what the sign actually said there? Come on, Sop, don’t we all know it’s an advantage to be a foreigner in Hungary in more ways than one? Hungarians love foreigners. They will line up to kiss your butt. Admit it!
@Krestie: “The other 3 citizenships he has because he is the crown prince of these countries” Only he couldn’t have obtained citizenship in any of our lost lands based on his birthright, could he? For decades he wasn’t even allowed to enter Austria. Just like Hungarians aren’t allowed to settle in Kolozsvár (which no one seems to be concerned with for some unbelievable reason). The EU naturally doesn’t give a shit since it’s only illegal… “As far as I can tell, only Israel gives citizenship en masse to ethnic people with no residency requirements.” Aren’t they special… And, what do you think of that?
@Gheorghe Stoica: So, this is where the Gyppo name Sztojka http://imgsrv09.kuruc.org/galeriaN/hir/szivan.jpg comes from… The murderer natsiya… How lucky we are to have you!
@’Viking:’ “when the ‘Hungarians’ came to the Carpathian Basin…” ‘Hungarians?’ How about ‘Vikings?’ Since’Vikings’ too tried to come here once… once! Let me see your papers, Lapp…
( PS: Retkes – milyen perfekt név egy szadi elnöknek – meg csak a szart keveri minthogy ukáz jöve, hogy uszítani kell a magyart a szlovák ellen… divide et impera like
@Viking;
Prove that they did’nt!
justasking at September 27, 2009 4:35 PM
—
Oh, the heavy argument!
You obviously did not understand my joke about Neanderthal/Cro-Magnum people: They did *not* speak Hungarian, OK?
—
“Sumerian(as Law had said), Huns, Avars and Magyars are all connected”.
The problem is that the people living in the Carpathian Basin were farmers and all we know about the people you listed claims they were nomadic people, who became farmers when the arrived to the Carpathian Basin.
So your idea that Magyars were created in the Carpathian Basin and then took the ran-around on horse-back and gave the language to the people listed above, who then all paid Thank-You visits in the Magyar Urheimat. No, that does not compute at all
-
How many Pre-Indo-European languages existed is not known, nor whether the ancient names of peoples believed, in ancient times or now, to have descended from the pre-ancient population referred to speakers of distinct languages. Feel free to check out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_European_culture).
These people are the original inhabitants of the Carpathian Basin, before the Scythians, Huns, Avar, Sumerians, Magyars, etc.
@ Viking;
You realize that neither one of us is going to give in?
For every article/book/website you name it, I come up with, you are going to do the same to refute it. So I ask you, what now. Do you want to continue this tit for tat?
I mean we all know that there is no such thing as a Historian,Medevalist, Scientists of anything ology, who’s work can be based on vanity or material gain now is there!
Do you think it really matters to me if Hungarians have been around for thousands of years or even 2 years that it would change my opinion of her?
Do you think it really matters to me if Hungarians have been around for thousands of years or even 2 years that it would change my opinion of her?
justasking at September 27, 2009 10:29 PM
—-
I hope not, because that should not change anything.
And that is my point – It does not matter ‘who was first’ when we discuss today’s problem.
The people who lived here 1.000-10.000 years had no sense of what a ‘NationalState’ was or what ‘National Identity’ was. Those things did not exist and we are not better or worse because people lived here some thousands of years ago.
But my point will all this is that:
- It is wrong to claim that “Hungarian/Magyars” were in the Carpathian Basin first.
- It is wrong to claim that “Hungarian/Magyar” is the native language of the Carpathian Basin.
- The Magyars came in from outside and occupied the Carpathian Basin (Honfaglas) and eventually the Hungarian NationalState was created. It fought several wars and both won and lost. And then we come to Trianon, which was the outcome of the WWI and you lost, that is it.
In WWII Hungary tried to reverse Trianon and it failed miserable again.
To have the outcome reversed is revisionism and has no popular support in the rest of Europe. We are not into changing borders at the moment. We are more into removing borders, regenerating the Old Europe before this ‘Nationalist-shit’ the last centuries killed so many Europeans unnecessary.
@ Viking;
You believe what you want and I will believe what I want.
Pavaszem : @Gheorghe Stoica: So, this is where the
Gyppo name Sztojka .. The murderer natsiya…
…
Possibly, albeit the “Stoic”-root for names is
actually Serbian/Slavic, as in Stoic, Stoicov or
Stoicicov. But the name of other Gypsy indicted is
Raffael Sandor, thus he may have came from Italy
and he was only naturalized as an ujmagyar.I don’t
know for sure. However it is certain that their
victim (Marian Cozma) was an ethnic-romanian.
>How lucky we are to have you!
I pay may taxes and I am a law abaiding citizen, I
even want that Hungary gets better, but the
present turn toward revisionist rhetoric and
hardline-nationalism (with a fascist flavour as
Jobbik, Magyar Garda) is worrisome development and
it is out of step with the times.
..
Hunagry won’t achieve anything with it on foregin
policy (it is just weak militarly and economically
for such things) so it will turn its anger those
who are defenseless, against its own.
@David
If you want to see the reality of the African invasion into Budapest, just take a trip to Blaha Luzja ter.
You will see them in the square dealing drugs, in front of the police. They frequent internet cafes behind the Corvin Aruhaz and at the end of Somogyi Bela street where a new cafe has opened run by Arabs.
They scam from these cafes, 419, all kinds of fraud. The African hairdressers in both Somogyi Bela street and Akacfa utca are both staging points and fronts for Africans (mainly Nigerians) entering Hungary and I am sure that they do not survive by braiding hair! They sort out (for large sums of money I am sure the paperwork, both official and forged to traffic people into Hungary!
In the evening they congregate together in the square, many drunk and shouting! They are arrogant and seem to think that the avarage Hungarian is stupid! You will never see them early in the morning, but they hang around Blaha L. ter during the day, no work, they are hussling!
On rare occassions you will see the police and border guards turn up and remove a few in handcuffs, but that is rare.
They cruise around in quite decent cars, and many is cars that they have imported from Nigeria with Lagos plates, no Insurance and many do not even have driving licenses.
Seems to be a black African in Budapest is a positve think, if you are a black African…. For the avarage Hungarian life is hard having to owrk for a living!
I can’t agree with you more John!!! (I saw this happening in the western countries too) But the hungarians have to be worried about this…before it is to late and there are millions into the country!
@ Geza;
Don’t kid yourself. What John just said, change the address and make it down town Toronto, London Paris or where ever and it is the exact same scenario.
Well, whadya expect? You girls just can’t get enough. Also they’re “more romantic and passionate than any Hungarian man” http://tinyurl.com/ydk97zs
I was born in BP, my kids were born in Canada.
I applied for Hungarian citizenship and passport a few years ago and now we all have dual citizenship.
We have not lived in Hungary nor have we contributed a dime to its economy – I hope people like me are ineligible for any type of pension or benefit that involves monetary gain.
I am making the assumption that all we are eligible for is being able to work there legally if we ever decide to live there. Ditto for all others who claim citizenship without any benefit to Hungary
Giving exo-Hungarians in the Carpathian region Hungarian citizenship can also be an instrument of intimidation to our neighboring govts. It of course may exacerbate tensions and reduce the possibility of cooperation, but hey, what else is new around here?
If there is one neighboring capital I would like to see put on notice with such a gesture it’s Belgrade. I have always feared for the safety of our Hungarian brethren south of the border. The danger was acute under the madman Milosovic, and it has not completely gone away. What the Serbs would like to do to us would make the Slovak language law a very minor imposition by comparison!
I say the Vojvodina/Bacska Hungarians need the assurance of dual citizenship from us. Belgrade needs to be made to understand that when they mess with their Hungarian minority, they mess with us. In the event of a violent flare up, when you freely allow Hungarian men from Vojvodina free access into our country under the cover of dual citizenship, that means they live to fight another day. The Serbs understand this principle to perfection.
We can muck along with the Slovaks and Romanians, they are people that I think can be reasoned with. In the case of the Serbs, I’m not so sure. Best to keep our tanks fueled, armed and ready to roll at a moments notice, with or without NATO approval.
We shouldn’t also forget the Magyarab in Sudan and Egypt. Sudan is a huge country, and giving them citizenship would allow Hungary inroads into the wealth there.
Hello anonymous,
Given our present situation, any claim that we can throw and make stick to the wall is fine with me.
I don’t know if we ever did or did not have a presence in the Sudan. The real trick is convincing the Sudanese locals that we did. Anything that let’s us sink our teeth into their wealth is fine by me. My Hungarian pride does not keep me out of Africa!
By way of Cape Horn or, outer “fucking” space,
came the fat, lazy, Hungarians and, out of the
blood-stained ground came their gypo brothers.
The zombified race that does not have a friend anywhere but has a grand lifestyle in Magyarorszag courtesy of the generous welfare system.
@ Anonymous;
That was a pretty vulgar thing to say.
Just because the girl in the article see’s nothing wrong with a “man” having 13 kids scattered all over hell’s half acrea and insisting on more … thats her business. Personally I think he’s a pig. She likes the attention that she is getting now, lets check on her in a couple of years when she has these 4 kids hanging off of her and he’s no where in sight along with his money.
I have to admit I am surprised about the way you were generalizing and grouping all us “women” into one catagory…sounds a bit farmiliar. As well, comments like that lead us women to think that you have penis envy!
No different from you grouping all Africans in Toronto, London & Paris.
@ Anonymous;
I was not the one that grouped them all together, I was just commenting on what John had said.
Dear Zsuzsa,
Be aware that anytime you see the username “anonymous”, it merely means the poster omtted entering into the username field. (It happened to me once by accident, that’s how I know) Thus we don’t know if one “anonymous” poster is the same as another; it could be more than one person. We don’t know and Eric doesn’t care. On most discussion boards in the West, you have to enter something into the username field in order to participate.
Posting as “anonymous” on this website isn’t showing a lot of courage or fortitude, given that any username can be used, including one already taken by another.
Whether it’s worth responding to such posts, I’ll leave to your judgment and the judgment of my readers.
@ Laci;
Hello my friend. To quite honest it does not matter to me if they post a username or not, I will respond to a comment if I feel strongly about it.
I meant to tell you, my Dad is 2 years YOUNGER than yours. I know it makes no matter to you; but, I have a really bad memory (thats why I tell the truth) and if I make a comment in future that would contradict his age, I did not want you to think that I lie.
That’s fine Zsuzsa.
Allowing such wide open posting does encourage provacteurs, and so one has to be careful in getting into any protracted arguments with such people.
My last post omitted an email reference. Apparently one can post without giving either a username or email. This laxity just gives cover to cowards and trolls. I’m surprised that the level of discourse around here is as good as it is, all things considered.
Farkas László
In the case of the Serbs, I’m not so sure. Best to keep our tanks fueled, armed and ready to roll at a moments notice, with or without NATO approva
—
Every time you rolled over Serbs in the last century, didn’t worked out too well for Kingdom of Hungary, eh ?
@lvl100;
If at first you don’t succed, try, try again.
Even Milosovic was reluctant to to do to our people what he was doing to others, however much he would have liked to. The present Serb govt. may not try any ethnic cleansing against Hungarians, but it’s not out of the question that some future nationalist regime might do it.
History does repeat itself in our part of the world, but in unexpected ways. However unsuccessful the past might have been for Hungarians, to turn a Hungarian village into another Srebenica or Zepa is playing with fire. It’s gambling on a major scale. The next roll of the dice may not work out for somebody.
Let’s value our NATO membership. At the least we should have got some support and upgrading of our armed forces. If our army is not better as a result of NATO, then that is not the fault of the west.
The link suggests that. I only summarized it into 1 sentence.
To my previous comment @Sophist I’d just like to add that the presence of ethnic Hungarians on the ‘Beloved Foreigner’ lines doesn’t mean that they are treated as Admired Foreigners. They are treated like Swabians or Volga Germans in Germany or Gypsies, unfortunately, in Hungary which they occasionally deserve but more often than not Magyars sold down the river compare favorably with the magyaroid riffraff of Budapest or the white trash peasants of rump Hungary’s countryside,in my experience.
@GS: “Marian Cozma was an ethnic-romanian” Marian was a Romanian expat living in Hungary. And, the Gypsies didn’t kill him because he was Romanian. If I were a betting man I would bet he never had any problems in Hungary because he was Romanian. Chances are he was treated better by Hungarians in Hungary than ethnic Hungarians from Romania usually are. (Were you ever attacked or experienced hostility in Hungary because you’re Romanian?) “Jobbik, Magyar Garda… is worrisome” We have them because our situation is worrisome. “out of step with the times.” It is very much in step with the times, if you ask me… “Hungary won’t achieve anything… weak militarly and economically” So was Sweden or Finland a century ago and look at them now.
@Comrade Viking: “We are not into changing borders at the moment” We’re not? So, what happened to the Soviet Union, the German Democratic Republic, Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia? And what the heck is Tajikistan? Tell it to your reindeer, Lapp… “In WWII Hungary tried to reverse Trianon and it failed miserable again” WWIII will fix that… Try and try again! Jamais deux sans trois! “Nationalist-shit the last centuries killed so many Europeans” It has actually been the cosmopolitan, internationalist, globalist shit that killed most people who were killed, European or not, and created this world of shit that those of us that survive are forced to live in.
Granting citizenship to ethnic Hungarians?
Dumbass, woolly-headed, liberal drivel.
Ethnic-citizenship= 3 million more gypos on your doorstep.
On Tuesday I witnessed a twenty-something gypsy
pass by with her five kacsa/ducks. Five children – could have been quintuplets? She was shabbily dressed along with her offsprings. It appeared that none of them had been introduced to soap or water.
She was filthy and so were her children They have recently appeared in the village and goodness knows where they came from?
Gypsies are taking this land.
@Farkas
“Let’s value our NATO membership. At the least we should have got some support and upgrading of our armed forces. If our army is not better as a result of NATO, then that is not the fault of the west.”
The window of opportunity is there yet Magyarország refuses to see the potential of NATO’s and/or ISAFs operations in Afghanistan. Regardless of the situation on the ground or how one might feel about it, this theatre offers serious field experience for troops and officers in terms of combat and general operations and the potential free upgrades from NATO based on their contributions. Yet Hungary sends what, 12 support troops? And pull out after 2-3 KIA? Embarressing.
Just look at the Poles and how they are modernizing their military under the umbrella of NATO while kicking serious ass in Afghanstan AND Iraq. Real field experience > all.
Hello njMagyar,
An interesting point about NATO and Afghanistan. It’s true that some combat experience would be helpful for developing the effectiveness and training of our forces.
Other than the UK, no other European nation is eager to get into a combat situation over there. In almost all Euro countries, public opinion is firmly set against foreign military adventeurism and deployment. Some of the reasons for this is the fear of a no-win, open ended involvement. Europe’s dismal experience with war in the 20th century also feeds into this reluctance (Americans on the other hand often view war in very rah-rah terms, not unlike participating in a football match!) There are a lot of Muslims in Europe, and fear of terrorist retaliation for mucking around in Afghanistan is also a big factor.
@Laci: “What the Serbs would like to do to us would make the Slovak language law a very minor imposition by comparison…” I wouldn’t knock the Serbs just now: “Vajdaság megkaphatja a kulturális autonómiát… A szerb parlament lényegében kulturális autonómiát adott a vajdasági magyaroknak egy törvénymódosítás-sal… Szerbia lépése megmutatta: lehet autonómiával is rendezni a kisebbségi ügyeket, ráadásul kiderült: déli szomszédunk nem tart a magyaroktól”. http://kitekinto.hunsor.se/#post80 In fact I wouldn’t knock any of our neighbors: Only the Allies will benefit. Which is why they put such a huge effort into dividing us. “Milosovic…” Milošević was a great lawyer that outmaneuvered the whole obnoxious lot at the Hague trying to railroad him until they killed him. Like they’ve killed so many other politicians that refused to toe the line from Haider to Anna Lindh. “Let’s value our NATO membership” Let’s not. Instead of universal health care we used to have we’re forced to buy billion euro Allied weaponry. How is that good for us? In fact how do we benefit by our membership in NATO (read the US Armed Forces) at all? It’s just another vehicle of exploitation IMHO.
@njMagyar: “Real field experience…” Guerilla training with Hamas would be more useful and appropriate.
@olga: “now we all have dual citizenship” Yes this is a whole movement now http://www.hunhir.hu/index.php?pid=hirek&id=19333 that gives me/us the heebie-jeebies …
Hello Pávaszem,
I appreciate the update in Hungarian. It’s nice to know that the Hungarians have been granted autonomy, and that the current govt. shows signs of respecting that.
The history of the Balkan region troubles me. Just because there is a present Serb govt. that supresses violent nationalists from getting their way, doesn’t mean that it will always remain that way. Tito did that, and got his way while he was alive, but then it all re-flared.
What really bothers me about the area, is it’s history of violent ethnic wars, followed by periods of peace that can last a generation or so, only to be eventually followed by wars of vengeance and reprisal. Milosovic exploited the resentment that Croat behaviour under the Ustasha in WW2 left in Serbs. The viciousness we saw in the 90′s was “payback”.
I am not sure the cycle of violence is over, and neither is anyone else. You can have peace for the next 30 or 40 years, only to be followed by another nightmare. The wars of the 90′s have produced too many widows, refugees and orphans for there not to be a desire for vengeance, once again.
I wouldn’t put our guns away. If NATO membership can help modernise our forces and make them more effective in some way, fine. As I’ve said elsewhere re the Serbs: yeah let’s get on and work together, but let’s also keep our tanks fueled, armed and ready to roll at a moment’s notice.
Hello, Farkas László!
I hope this tickles you; it did me: A group of indigenous Bácska/Vojvodina Serbs with whom I dined today expressed much the same sentiments about the Serbs as you do, only rather more virulently. ‘You can’t predict them, f … their …’, was the first sally that had me staring. Also, they told me that the Bunjevac (ethnic Serbs who turned Roman Catholic, Maria Terézia’s people whom she had settled in Bácska from the River Buno area of Serbia) had to a man registered their ethnicity as Hungarian. My Serbian companions regretted not having done so themselves while it was still possible, for they would rather be Hungarian than associated with the Serbian ‘primitives’ who’ve come up from Bosnia and Kosovo, ‘f … their murdering xxxxxx’s …’.
Hello dear Elle!!
This is a subject very close to my heart. I love Hungary and identify with our nation. My mother was part of a “Bunevac” (Catholic) Serb colony that lived for centuries south of Budapest, on Csepel Island. They considered themselves patriotic Hungarians, who happened to be Serb decsended. The appreciated that Hungary gave their people safe refuge after the Ottomans expelled them from Kosovo. Both Serbian and Hungarian was spoken in my mothers’ home. She was Hungarian first, but identified with Serbianess second.
Our dear neighbors to the south are conflicted. Many of them (like your friends) reject the violent, hate filled insane nationalism that ruined their nation in the 90′s. They want to move on. But many Serbs would love to kill and exterminate us. It’s like a Jekyll/Hyde thing. I’d like to extend my right hand to them in friendship. But our left should have it’s hand on the long gun barrel, just in case.
Milosovic and Arkan would have loved to go into a Hungarian village and do what they did in numerous other communities. The only thing that prevented them was fear of what the Hungarian state would do.
My mother got angry and hysterical at what was going on in the 90′s. Karadzic, when asked by western reporters about the children born in “rape camps”, fathered by Serb militia, cavalierly answered that he would personally adopt all those babies!
He never did. Those children are ready to fight another war when they grow up.
Thanks ever so much, Farkas László. I really appreciate the personal content of your revelations. You have also put my mind at rest about whether my new Serb friends were on the level or taking me for a ride. Most kind of you. Thanks again.
@ Lacika
“I would like to extend my right hand to them in friendship. But our left should have it’s hand on a long barrel gun.”
I did not expect that from you. To me, you come across as a mild tempered, sweet gentle soul. Now I have this picture of you in my head, blowing some guys ass off and yelling “nothing personal” at the sametime! I do not mean to insult you, so please do not take it that way. I just started to laugh when I got to that part of your post to Elle. Again, I pictured you to be a lover not a fighter!
Hi Zsuzsa,
What happened from 1991 to 1998 south of our border was one of the greatest horrors imaginable. I still have video footage of a lot of it; footage that I can’t bear to watch, because much of it is permanently engraved in my memory. Hungary took in a number of refugees from that conflict; Germany took in about a million.
The sieges of Vukovar, Dubrovnik, Sarajevo; the fall of Srebenica and Zepa, the “rape camps” that people like the demented “Dr” Karadzic did not deny the existence of(rather, the idea made him proud!)- all of this occured in our lifetimes and in front to TV cameras.
If any Hungarian village was spared this treatment, I think it because they were afraid of what me might do; they also feared out NATO membership, which entailed a force upgrade. Some around here may not understand or appreciate the latter, but I beleive Milsovic and his General Mladic did.
What is truly sickening, is that to those of us who knew the history of that region, none of this came as a surprise.(I was expecting it to start right after Tito’s death; I was off by a few years!) What seperated the wars of the 90′s from previous cycles of Balkan mayhem was the presence ot TV cameras and the ultimate involvment of the west.
Too many victims. Too many children who saw their parents violated. Without a process of truth and reconciliation,I fear the possibility of another war.
The long gun barrel. They better behave themselves.
Hello again, Farkas Lászlo!
By golly, I felt the truth of your analysis (October 8, 2009 7:13 PM and elsewhere) just last night: at a popular Szbadka pub with a big group friends (mostly Hungarians, but also several indigenous Vojvodina Serbs), two chaps, speaking very accented Hungarian, cornered me to demand to know what I am doing in Szabadka. They returned repeatedly to wanting to know which newspaper I work for. They told me that they do not believe that I am a student doing field research for my doctoral thesis. (I am, but I have no idea who told them that.) I was pretty scared by the time my friends noticed my predicament, and came to join me and my interrogators. I flew out of Belgrade this morning. Six of my Szabadka friends trained up to Belgrade with me, on the earliest train of the day.
On the bigger picture: The Vojvodina autonomy draft bill (emphatically not the draft that includes the proposal of Hungarian territorial autonomy – that has been on ice since its presentation in 1997, and is forgotten even in Szabadka, except, it seems, by the optimists who alerted me to it) appears to have had the kibosh:
http://www.emportal.rs/en/news/serbia/100920.html. So Vojvodina remains without even the level of autonomy it had pre-Milosevic. No more decentralisation, it seems.
To Pávaszem: I wish I could rejoice with you about the “kulturális” autonómia”. Yes, sure: bilingual street and other signs, and location names – until someone gets cheesed off with the Hungarian ones and graffities them out; lots on those around, especially once you’re out of town. But like you, I see very little good in the NATO relationship. We saw NATO bomb the length and breadth of Serbia, and not spare even the Bácska part of the Vajdaság. I listened with disbelief to a Palics-resident Hungarian’s account of the NINE bombs that NATO lavished on military barracks less than one km from his house.
Hi Elle,
Thanks for your insight and experiences. Serbia is going to go on being a very creepy place for Magyars to live. Asking for a plebescite of secession will get them killed and start another war. “Autnomy” is not likely to mean much under the circumstances.
There’s no other significant non-Serb minority left in Serbia to lash out at and kick around, except the Hungarians. The country has experienced it’s own version of a Trianon style territorial reduction, and their pride must be very wounded. Milosovic promised them a “Greater Serbia” that would extend to the Adriatic. Instead they lost Bosnia, Kosovo (for which they had a deeply emotional attachment) and even Montenegro. The loss of the latter hurt too, as the Serbs considered the people there Serbs. The Montenegrins are not stupid apparently (mountain people seldom are), and saw no advantage to being run from Belgrade. They were tired of having to fight in wars through which they gained nothing except lost lives. Having the nicest warm coast scenery in Europe,they are sitting on a gold mine and have all to potential to become another Riviera or Monaco. Serbia is now a rump state; the prospect of losing still more territory would drive them beserk.
(cont)
(cont)
NATO achieved in 78 days what 4-5 years of conventional fighting could not, and that was bringing Milosovic and his forces to their knees. I very much would like us to learn this style of fighting. In the past we used to march off to war with a romantic(as in emotional)sentimental fatalism, like a people who expected to lose. General George Patton told his men that their purpose was not to die for their country, but “to make the other son-of-a-bitch die for his country!”. Somehow, the Magyars throughout their tragic history, seem to have gotten this maxim reversed, and that is the very thing that I would like to reverse! We haven’t had a military leader that kicked ass since Hunyadi, and shit, that was 600 years ago!
One thing we have in common with the Serbs is that the national consciousness has been molded by military defeat and it’s attendant sense of martrydom. Martrydom breeds paranoia and self pity. The latter is a commodity both of our peoples are rich in; too bad we can’t sell it or pour it into our gas tanks! Serbs have their Kosovo defeat in 1389 to endlessly mull over; we have 1526, 1848 and 1956. These defeats have molded the national character. We don’t know how to think and act like winners, because we’ve never won for hundreds of years.
I say let our lads in the military learn as much as they can, from nations that have spent trillions on weapons and who fight wars every few years. It’s smart to learn from the experience of others.