Not that I support Mr Molnár in this position. (It seems to me unlikely, and an assertion lacking in evidence.) But what business is it of an unelected quango, i.e. the Equal Opportunity Authority, to issue "sanctions forbidding him from making 'such' statements," infringing the consitutional right to free speech of anybody; let alone a democratically elected Mayor, of all people.

I know the deliberate curtailment of the democratic freedoms of the citizen, by the unelected and appointed, is now so commonplace across Europe to be unremarkable: but still it's worth pointing out such ademocratic scandals as and when they arise, so we do not become entirely numb to them - as we are no doubt intended to.

@ bobscountrybunker

Good to read you do not support Mr. Molnar's position

Sounds to me Mr. Molnar’s "free speech" was more like “hate speech” People can disagree on what constitutes hate speech and free speech, but free speech ought not be a licence to target vulnerable groups.

Unless of course he had Uncontroverted Evidence these women took the pills.

@olga
"People can disagree on what constitutes hate speech and free speech, but free speech ought not be a licence to target vulnerable groups."
----
This is the platitude that is so often trotted out by those who would wish to curtail free speech. In saying "ought not to be a licence..." you imply, an in fact demand, control over speech.
Free speech does not equal controlled speech. Free speech is just free speech. And unfortunately this means that people get to say nasty things too, this is one of those prices that come with freedom.
There is no happy medium to being free, you are either free, or you are not. And one of the consequences of freedom is that it is sometimes abused; nasty I know, but it's just a consequence of being free.

I still maintain that even if it was, as you suggest, "hate speech," the Mayor, as an elected representative of the people has much more of a right to express his hatefullness (no matter whom he may offend or diturb in the process) than any bunch of unelected, unaccountable quangocrats has of limiting his right to expression. He may be a bigotted bastard, but he has a democratic mandate; the Equal Opportunity Authority are just another group of state sponsored busy-bodies.

Regardless of whether the opinions of such quangocrats of what is deemed to be proper/improper speech just happen to now chime with your own, that's the whole point: there may come a time when those opinions no longer align, and where will you/we be then?

"for the time being he would not issue an official statement to the police revealing which women were harming themselves" (from the article).
-
Someone should report him to the Police for with-holding evidence in a crime. And that has nothing to do with 'free speech' or not. It is a strict legal matter.
-
Interesting that Bob thinks 'Elected Politicians' has more 'right' to 'Free Speech' than anyone else. I suppose he showed that when Gyurcsany made his public speeches, by not disturbing them.

@bobscountrybunker

Democracy and Freedom come with responsibility. You may believe that Canada's laws prohibit freedom of speech - I beg to differ. So does the Supreme Court of Canada in it's decision - R vs. Keegstra

If you are interested, here is a website that's a quick read as opposed to pages of legalese:

http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/en/timePortals/milestones/128mile.asp

Viking picked up on your sentence "Interesting that Bob thinks 'Elected Politicians' has more 'right' to 'Free Speech' than anyone else."

That sentence stood out for me as well - kind of like "priests are less guilty when they molest kids than your average person" - in my way of thinking, a person of authority/power has more responsibility than the average person. IMHO,for an elected official, it's worse to make unsubstantiated and inflammatory statements than your average citizen. You may think otherwise.

Oops - re my error "it's decision - R vs. Keegstra"

It should be "its" decision - just read the debate about a singular and plural phrase in Latin. Thus I should not make such glaring mistakes. Mea Culpa

There is an interesting Australian comparison. A few years ago, a campaigning journalist revealed a hospital’s finding that Aboriginal girls as young as six years were being admitted with several types of concurrent venereal disease. He called upon the Government to investigate, and stop, child sexual abuse in remote Aboriginal communities. The Aborigines’ leaders, and even more so, hordes of the politically correct, went stir-crazy bananas about the ‘racial slur’ on Aborigines. Just how perverted can PC get? It happily overlooks child abuse if allegation of it will take to task a PC-protected race.

In this case, should the Mayor of Edeleny be overlooking Roma women’s harming of their foetuses, if that is what he thinks they are doing? And what is the Equal Opportunity Authority doing by going for the Mayor? Is it not concerned about the equal opportunity of all children to be born with a healthy body not wilfully damaged by their mother? Surely, if the Equal Opportunity Authority intervenes at all, it should be to investigate the Mayor’s allegation. This is not a freedom-of-speech matter. This is Oszkar Molnar’s brave attempt to put a stop to a criminal activity that he suspects is in progress. Well done, Sir.

" The Canadian Human Rights Tribunal's recent ruling that Section 13 violates the Charter of Rights and Freedom's right to free expression because it carries the threat of punitive fines in a victory for those who value civil liberties, free speach and progressive politics. (This ruling occured Sept, 2009) For too long those who have held dissenting or contrarian opinions havew been bullied and cowed by those who want to impose their own political agendas. Within this context, however, what are we to make of this Canadian Parlimentary Coalition to Combat Anti-Semitism, which is currently holding hearings? This is clearly an attempt by the Pro-Israel lobby to muzzle any legitimate political criticism of Israeli actions in the occupied territories by equating it with anti-Semitism. Criticism of Israel would thus become a hate crime. Vested interest groups allowed to delineate the scope of public discourse. Self appointed arbiters of any truth are the tru enemies of freedom"
Richard Deaton, Ottawa

Jesus, just listen to you all.
Why are you so obsessed with the desire to limit what a free people can or cannot say? Wriggle all you want, that is precisely what you are advocating.
Can you really be so blind to the Fascist overtones of this proposition?

Why is it your only answer to this is to intentionally misquote me? And then remark to each other that something stands out, when I never said ay such thing. This is transparent to everyone. The key here is, to quote the article, "[the] authority recently issued sanctions against Oszkar Molnar... ...and has forbidden him from making such statements in the future." (!!)

But an elected politician's job is to bring into the public eye issues that s/he considers to be of public interest: regardless of controversy. Just look at what he actually said, did he say "all" Roma? No. It is your own interpretations and insinuations about his character that are the deciding factor here. In effect all he has done is ruffled a few feathers...

But, imagine for a second that what the Mayor is saying is true. In the world you'd like to live in, this issue would be brought to his attention by his constituents, but it would go no further. The Mayor would be legally required, by the unelected and unaccountable, to remain silent. What you advocate is not only censorship, but the essential subversion of democracy.
No doubt your motives are pure, but this is what is called the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

@ Elle

Say what? Where exactly do you see the interesting comparison?

In Australia there was medical evidence of sexual abuse of children - that was not a hate crime. That's a horrific crime.(I am making the assumptions there WAS medical evidence provided and the authorities stepped in)

Mr. Molnar did not provide a shred of evidence.

Note:

1. "Molnar told MTI that the authority had not established whether Roma women in fact took pills during their pregnancy or not."

2. "But he said that for the time being he would not issue an official statement to the police revealing which women were harming themselves."

Perhaps Mr. Molnar should shut the f.. up until he could come up with the same type of evidence that was hopefully provided to the Australian authorities.

To olga: You know, I doubt that it is the role of a mayor to go in search of criminal evidence. It is sufficient for him to broadcast his suspicion that a crime is being perpetrated. Investigation has to be instituted by a competent authority, in this case, the country’s health department.

Here is my comparison: the Australian journalist did not commit a ‘hate crime’ by calling attention to what he suspected was sexual abuse of Aboriginal children on some Aboriginal reserves. Instead, he called attention to what he thinks. The Mayor of Edeleny did not commit a ‘hate crime’ by revealing what he thinks is foetus-harming by Roma women. Instead, he called attention to what he thinks. Neither man would have been a decent man if he had stayed silent.

Naturally, the Australian health authority investigated, and the Australian Government took immediate action upon being told of the findings. Surely that will happen in Hungary too.

It is a good idea to hold ‘hate crime’ accusations in abeyance until the facts are established. Undiscriminating hate-crime screamers make the work of people with a social conscience unnecessarily difficult. I salute the Mayor of Edeleny.

@Elle
Furthermore, the only thing hate-speech laws have ever been shown to achieve is the curtailment of freedom: nothing else. They simply do not achieve the objectives of their promoters.

Look at the Netherlands, Geert Wilders' imminent prosecution under hate speech laws is practically guaranteeing that he will form the next government. In the UK there have been hate speech laws for decades, but the BNP grows in influence year on year.

The intentions, in theory at least, are always noble; to defend the small and helpless from the thoughtless behaviour of the large and powerful. But in practise, it is always the complete opposite that happens, and invariably such legislation emerges as the tool by which the individual ends up being prosecuted and censored by an overpowering faceless bureaucracy.
http://www.internationalfreepresssociety.org/2009/09/christian-hotel-owners-hauled-before-court-after-defending-their-beliefs-in-discussion-with-muslim-guest/

@ Elle

Re: ". It is sufficient for him to broadcast his suspicion that a crime is being perpetrated. "

Oh, ok. Can't really respond to that one.

My take on the Australian case was that a journalist brought the abuse to light and medical evidence was provided to substantiate the allegations.

BTW, your hero Mr Molnar provided no evidence, and did not say how these women harmed their unborn babies. Minor details of course

@ Bob;

That is bloody scary. What I want to know is, after all is said and done and this couple is found within their rights in voicing opinions freely, can they go after this Muslim woman for damages that she caused to their livelihood?

To olga: I do not think your ‘take’ can get a grip here. What happened was that the Australian journalist broadcast the child sexual abuse problem. He was in no position to tender evidence. Nor is the Mayor of Edeleny. Medical information is confidential. But once information is in the public domain, the relevant authorities must take action.

To bobscountrybunker: I probably agree with you, but I cannot see why you addressed your point to me. I have been trying to say that it is unwise to accuse someone of hate speech for reason alone that s/he has apprehended a criminal behaviour, and broadcast it, in a PC-protected segment of a society.

@ Elle

I knew we would eventually agree on something: "I do not think your ‘take’ can get a grip here." No argument there.

Your Australian story is getting confusing

The first time it was : "A few years ago, a campaigning journalist revealed a hospital’s finding" - so the hospital found the kids had VD. Those findings would be admissible in a court of law. Don't understand why the hospital staff would not have reported it to the police right away.

Your latest posting said : "What happened was that the Australian journalist broadcast the child sexual abuse problem. He was in no position to tender evidence." - I did not realize that you accuse people first, then get evidence later.
Mr. Molnar must have followed this story if this paragraph is true.

Moreover, people who abuse children are shamelessly walking away from criminal charges due to contradictory evidence . Children are notorious for getting mixed up on facts after a time lapse. In some Canadian jurisdictions kids taped right after the abuse is reported and the tape is later introduced into evidence so the Crown does not have to rely on the children's memories by the time the case comes to trial. Tapes have proved to be beneficial to convictions.

Your mentioned that medical information is confidential - hopefully not in most civilized countries when child abuse is involved. In Canada medical staff is mandated to report child abuse of any kind. Not doing so results in a charge,of "failure to report"

@bobscountrybunker

I read the story about the couple in Liverpool England - absolutely insane.

I hope the Christian couple sue for damages and win not only legal fees and loss of business but mental anguish for being put through this farce..

This case makes a farce of the real hate speeches.

The only "defence" I could think of is that the Muslim woman was in the hospital for serious mental problems. Still does not explain the insanity of the police and the prosecution that would go forward with this case. Slow day in the criminal courts perhaps and they had to meet a quota?

Olga, it seems from what you say that Canada puts more onus on medical staff to report child abuse than most jurisdictions. I do not know the mechanics of this, however. For instance, of what does such a report consist? Does a hospital report directly to the police? But whom would the police then charge? As I see it, medical evidence of abuse tendered by a hospital does not ipso facto also identify a perpetrator. The police do not necessarily act to do so. Besides, the perpetrator is not necessarily just one person. There might be a ‘culture’ of child abuse. That’s where the Australian campaigning journalist came in. He shouted about the hospital’s findings (presumably having been tipped off by the hospital) until social services, the health department and other government bodies had to weigh in. It seems to me that this is also what the Mayor of Edeleny is doing. That is why I insist that he should not be vilified by the Equal Opportunity Authority, or anyone. The one decent course of action is to investigate his allegations. (I think that finally we do not disagree. I write again only to clarify the ‘evidence’ issue. The Australian journalist could not have had any, other than informally, by tip off: he had no standing to receive such evidence. But he shouted long and loud anyway, and got the job done.)

in regard to the christian couple I quote

"They deny that they were threatening, abusive or insulting. "

It seems obvious therefore that they are not charged with being 'christians' but with being 'threatening, abusive or insulting.' It doesnt really matter what the content of the discussion is, in all cases should people have an unqualified 'right' to be threatening, abusive or insulting.?

Elle,

"The one decent course of action is to investigate his allegations"

I agree, but this is difficult to do until he makes his allegations specific.

"But he said that for the time being he would not issue an official statement to the police revealing which women were harming themselves."

I am curious to know his reasons for not doing so.

To Sophist: Yes, I see your point. But a guess: if the Mayor of Edeleny does make a police report, it can easily be dismissed by the police as insubstantial. Then no investigation will follow. He is probably being tactically savvy. His court appeal against the Equal Opportunity Authority decree that wants to silence him instead of investigating his allegation will be interesting. I see nothing sinister in his present reluctance to make a police report, especially not one that would require him to make allegations about specific women. He cannot reasonably be expected to have the medical evidence that would substantiate such allegations. That evidence cannot be in his keeping, given the nature of medical evidence, and its proper repository.

Elle,

"He is probably being tactically savvy."

Yes, but the way he is being savvy involves his political judgement rather than his commitment to law and order. Are you suggesting that he provoked the EOA judgement so that he could bring evidence into the public domain that would otherwise have been suppressed by the police, etc.?

I accept that there is a lot of unnecessary pussyfooting around the sensitivities of the Roma community by the Government: the refusal to publish an ethnic analysis of criminality for one thing. But the Olaszlika sentences

" The father, who was obviously the most heavily involved, received a life sentence. That means at least thirty years in jail. The mother, considered to be an accessory before the fact, received fifteen years. Four other adults received fifteen years each. In addition two of the accused were juveniles. They received ten years each, which they will have to spend in a juvenile detention center. All eight will have to pay court costs: 6.4 million forints"

http://esbalogh.typepad.com/hungarianspectrum/2009/05/verdict-in-the-olaszliszka-hungary-murder.html

Suggest to me that some judges in Hungary are prepared to overlook these "sensitivities". A straightforward commitment to law and order would have seen him try to deliver whatever evidence he had to such authorities.

Sophist, I really cannot add to what I have already said. I do want to repeat, however, that what appears to me to be the tactic of the Mayor is sound. No matter how able the courts are, it would not be possible for the Mayor to bring any charge regarding his allegations before a court. That would be well outside his cathedra as mayor. In common law courts, his standing to bring a similar charge would not be recognised. I image it is much the same in a civil law jurisdiction. The Mayor will simply have to make a noise until there is an investigation of his allegations. It will have to be the findings of that investigation that are presented to a court, by a body with the standing to do that.

If a medical staff member suspects a child has been abuse, they are legally required to contact Social Services. Social Service then do an "investigation" and if they find that there is "evidence"...they in turn contact the police on behalf of the child. The police then conduct an official investigation etc, etc, etc. This is how it is done in Canada. A medical staff member can not just "call" the police themselves for the police are not trained to hand child abuse cases per say while Social Services are trained to hand such situations. The object is to protect the child and not cause them undue stress, as well in some cases protect parents that get falsely accused.

But that is not the issue, I agree witth Elle. As well who in their right mind would commit possible political suicide on just here say? Nobody, so obviously there is some type of evidence to support this mans claim.

who in their right mind would commit possible political suicide on just here say? Nobody, so obviously there is some type of evidence to support this mans claim.
justasking at October 7, 2009 4:11 PM
---
Of course the Mayor has not committed "political suicide", he has just won national fame and will steal votes from Jobbik locally if not Fidesz throw him out. In that case he will 'join' Jobbik (probably as 'independent' supported by Jobbik/MIEP/the remaining hate mongers).
--
For myself I have proof that all Canadian women with Hungarian ancestry are abusing their children and participating in international paedophile networks.
I mean, *every one* just knows this.

@ Viking;

Shit our little secret is out!!

@ Viking;

Next time I wish you would use a different example. Using kids as the bunt of a joke in not kosher. I know what you were trying to say, I think that next time lets use animals or something, not little turkey lurkies that can not defend themselves.

Enoch Powell in 1968
"But I ask this question. If a member of parliament in his own constituency in the place where he lives, sees certain to him real, growing and threatening dangers, which are brought to his attention by his constituents of every race and class, is he to be silent? Is he to say nothing about it? Is he to supress the facts?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugD4W12S-cU
Cue a hundred Bolshie ad hominems about Powells racism and hate mongering that deliberately avoid answering his very intelligent question.

@bnpfan;

Forgive my ignorance, but I have never heard of this man Enoch Powell before. After watching what you posted, I then continued to watch some more u-tube videos. I was blown away by a comment that was made about what Mr. Powell stood for and what he was trying to say. One comment was that NOBODY asked the people if they wanted to see/experience such a drastic change in all that their country had at one time stood for/was about. The other, how can people start to share an understanding, a sense of community, how will they be able to pull together if the country were under attack as well as fight side by side, if they were not forced to embrace their new countries traditions, culture etc.

He said all this in the 1960's, where are politicians like that anymore?

to justasking
Powell was simply, one of the most intelligent and talented men of his generation. He was made a Professor at 22 and in WWII was the highest promoted person of any army, going from Private to Brigadier. (He was the intelligence chief in charge of Operation Overlord.)
Yet in his own country the man is now universally dismissed as either a racist or a madman.
He made a famous speech which is now called the "Rivers of Blood" speech. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23MEL7424aQ The controversy which followed it is the reason why ever since politicians on all sides in the UK have refused to discuss the issue of immigration.
He said you must face and recognize this problem, and the political establishement refused and continues to refuse to do so.
In fact he is the Cassandra of modern British politics, every predicition (he was also a formidable Economic theorist and Eurosceptic) he ever made was dismissed as alarmist, yet each has nevertheless come true.

@ Viking

I was not going to post any more on this thread - what is the point except to improve my typing skills?

However, I have to comment on your statement:

"For myself I have proof that all Canadian women with Hungarian ancestry are abusing their children and participating in international paedophile networks. I mean, *every one* just knows this."

Exactly - you got it. Except of course you are not naming names although you could if you wanted to.

If this statement was made in Canada, he would have not lasted as an elected official for 24 hours. Moreover, this statement was never about the fetuses in utero, it was about hatemongering. Probably gains votes with the wingnuts in his catchment area.

I wish a lawyer with a history of winning libel suits would represent these women in a class action suit pro-bono and let the Mayor prove what the f.. he was talking about. It should not be reverse onus - the onus would be on him

Honestly, I seldom get on a soap box unless somehow the subject is related to kids - and sometimes our 4 legged friends.

bnpfan, this is music to my ears. I have to re-post your Enoch quote:

‘Enoch Powell in 1968
"But I ask this question. If a member of parliament in his own constituency in the place where he lives, sees certain to him real, growing and threatening dangers, which are brought to his attention by his constituents of every race and class, is he to be silent? Is he to say nothing about it? Is he to suppress the facts?" ‘
The hideous thing is that we would these days have to answer Enoch’s questions in this vein: Yes, old chap. Keep firmly stum, and certainly suppress the facts. If you do not, they’ll never stop screaming ‘hate mongerer’ and 'racist' at you. (Its amazing that politicians of this man’s calibre once walked the face of this bloody awful, brain-dead world of contemporary political whores.)
I endorse every praise you have heaped on this great man.

@Elle

I promised - no more Mr. Molnar postings from my end

I ran across an article about Mr. Powell you may enjoy - TIMESONLINE 13.9.09.

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_extracts/article6832147.ece#

@ bnpfan;

Okay all at once, can we say "dingbat"! Viking you are not allowed to join in. I just figured out what "bnpfan" stood for. Oye! Talk about a brain fart and not paying attention!

Anyhow, my little Britsh friend, you've got me hooked! I have ordered " Like the Roman Life... by Mr. Heffer. I again thank you for telling "me" about this man. I so look forward to reading more about him. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant!
The sad thing is, some people will just dismiss him without even listening to what he is saying. There is a big difference between stating facts (even when they are "sensitive" and "politically incorrect") and trying to find solutions and just ranting to hear oneself talk. Unfortunately, the latter seems to be the most prevalent, just listen to some of the comments on this site.

Cheers!

@justasking
The person who dismisses Powell as merely an alarmist racist does themselves the diservice of depriving their ears of the observations of a very perceptive man indeed. As he said, "That nation will be ill-councilled which allows its Statesmen to predict only what it is pleasent to hear."
Few people have, if ever, read the text of the whole "Rivers of Blood" speech and are as a rule only acquainted with it through the lens of modern Leftist reportage. It may be found here:
http://www.enochpowell.net/fr-79.html
I commend to you its opening sentence, "The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils."

@ bnpfan;
Thank-you very much for the link. As we "speak" I am printing the speech out, for if I were to read it on my screen, I would soon have the eyes of a fly!
See you around on this site and take care.

@bnpfan/bobscountrybunker: You've neglected to respond to Olga's link which points out that Powell made up those letter's from concerned constituents.

The article also clearly points out what a spineless coward he was.

To Vándorló and olga: I’m glad bnpfan did not respond to the Times article. I wish I were not, either. But I cannot resist.
Enoch Powell was a sty in the eye of the 1960s British political establishment, many of whom considered the NHS far too expensive. Many had shares in the pharmaceutical company Distillers, as did the Times establishment of the period. Their ploy was to make the NHS wear the blame, and the expense, of the thalidomide disaster. Powell would not have a bar of that. He, pretty much single-handedly, steered the situation such that the thalidomide casualties, or rather, their parents, had to sue Distillers. The creep who wrote the Times article does the typical Murdoch-journalist fact bending. He misrepresnts Powell’s excellent defence of the NHS against a crippling liability case as Powell’s heartlessness. But consider: the NHS would have been broken under the strain of the thalidomide compensation claims. Also, Distillers established the first substantive case of the liability of pharmaceutical companies for the ill-effects of the drugs they peddle. That, surely, is a ‘a good’ for which we must be grateful to Enoch Powell.

@Elle/Sophie: (Welcome back) "...He, pretty much single-handedly, steered the situation..." No, he didn't do anything. He was the one with self interest, he was the minister of health with an old chum on the executive committee of the drinks company that decided to peddle pharmaceuticals and a lucrative sideline. He was the spineless coward that would not meet with and see anyone of the victims of his intransigence.

Spineless coward.

Enoch Powell in 1968
"But I ask this question. If a member of parliament in his own constituency in the place where he lives, sees certain to him real, growing and threatening dangers, which are brought to his attention by his constituents of every race and class, is he to be silent? Is he to say nothing about it? Is he to suppress the facts?"
-----
@all
*rolling sleeves up in preparation for a long one*
1. The sight of the likes of Vándorló and Olga having a bash at Bnpfan because he is apparently refusing to answer their thalidomide “question” is rather amusing. Particularly as they have all rather singularly refused to answer Powell’s very own question about whether a politician should remain silent. Bnpfan’s and Elle’s contribution are as valuable, as the dismissing of the bravest man in British politics as a “coward” by others is illuminating. Because they allow us to truly comprehend the actual nature of multiculturalist socio-liberalism, and it’s really good to have the opportunity to further explain what I have been going on about here for so long.

The crucial point is what should a politician do, should he remain silent? “Olga” unsurprisingly dodges this question, Viking and Vándorló are equally utterly silent on it. Elle is totally correct when she says, “The hideous thing is that we would these days have to answer Enoch’s questions in this vein: Yes, old chap. Keep firmly stum, and certainly suppress the facts.”

(cont’d...)
2. And if they could be honest with us, and themselves, the Leftists would in fact admit that this is how they believe a politician should really behave. It is made clear in the substance of what they say, about the Mayor Olga says, “People can disagree on what constitutes hate speech and free speech, but free speech ought not be a licence to target vulnerable groups.”

What’s interesting for Hungarians, is that the very reason why Enoch Powell decided to make his controversial speech, from my own reading of it, was in objection to the imminent passing of the “equal opportunities” and “hate speech” laws in the UK which I referred to above. But he didn’t object to it because he was a racist (or a coward or a nut), he objected to it on logical grounds, on intellectual grounds. He foresaw that they would of course, by definition not be used to promote equality. They would be used to favour the interests of one group in society in the face of another. He knew it would be the indigenous population, and only they, who would be required to keep their mouths shut; and this irked him so much because it contradicted the founding legal principle of Anglo-Saxon law, Magna Carta i.e. one law for all, universally applied. Also that a “multi-“culture society would create inevitable divisions that would be exploited by anarchists and communists.

(cont’d...)
3. (The utmost irony is people still debate whether Powell has been proved right today, when he was proved right in his own lifetime. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEAIpbl7vHw 3:52-4:32 note also the pictures in the background at 3:04-3:47)

As an academic the political Enoch Powell was classically motivated, he was not sentimental, neither was he pragmatic. He was fundamentally internally driven by the pursuit of truth. Discovering and apprehending reality through the honest and ruthless application of reason and logical understanding. He courted controversy, to quote the video Bnpfan sent, “If it inflames people to look at realities, instead of just guessing, that will be a good thing.”(As we shall see such “pursuit of truth” motivations actually disgust the socio-liberally minded, who believe like the author of the Times smear article that those who follow it like Powell veer from “the impeccably lucid to the paranoid crazy.” No doubt the former when they agree with their own views and the latter when they do not!

He wanted people to see these laws as the inevitable beginning of a process in which there would no longer be one rule in society for all, but multiple rules unfairly applied. And yes, as Bnpfan has pointed out in this, like all his predictions, he was totally right. I’m sure you saw this article on the BNP website yesterday Bnpfan?

(cont’d...)
4. This is precisely the UK Powell warned against, that his opponents at the time dismissed would never happen, and precisely what came about.
http://bnp.org.uk/2009/10/polygamy-is-a-responsibility-in-islam-says-muslim-council-of-britain/

So why is it that the Brits have to now dismiss and smear probably the most intelligent politician they have had in 200 years as a lunatic? The answer lies in the answer to Powell’s question as to whether a politician should remain silent. Although they try to evade it, the truth is that the socio-liberals believe a politician should be silent. And this should not shock anyone.

You see for the socio-liberal, fundamentally, the rightness or wrongness of an idea is measured by its social consequences not by its objective truth. Even if the Mayor knows for a fact these things are happening and has evidence, he most certainly shouldn’t talk about it publicly. (Just tell the relevant authorities.) Because doing so might have unfortunate social consequences, the truth or otherwise of the matter really doesn’t enter into it. If it might actually be true, it can never be allowed to be true. (Note the obsession over the allegation that Powell made up his sources, do people really think there were not millions in Britain who felt this way? Of course they do, but it cannot be allowed to be true. See?)

(cont’d...)
5. This is the philosophical underpinning of socio-liberalism (or rather its sociological basis in the Frankfurt School), you see we can’t allow these negative social results. Because the Roma might get victimised as the Magyars might have negative feelings about them. And you cannot be permitted to be hostile or disapproving towards a particular group because cultural/moral relativism means that all groups are substantively equal. Anyone who might disagree can legitimately be called a racist. Viking’s humorous remark about Canadian Hungarians harming their babies is a real insight, like all humour, into his subconscious. See how his socio-liberal perspective simply cannot accept even the remote possibility of a world in which Roma mothers might potentially behave in this way towards their unborn while Magyar mothers might not? Substantive equality, and anyone who suggests otherwise is a racist.

It all goes to rather interesting fundamentals. Which is why this case is so fascinating, it brings socio-liberal anti-logic into the cold light of day. The fault lines emerge between those who think that politicians should essentially keep quiet and be uncontroversial, because their fundamental duty is to keep the peace and be more considerate than the man in the street for the above reasons; and if they can’t do that their utterances should be policed and banned by unelected busy-bodies.

(cont’d...)
6. While others think, as I do, that the very reason we have politicians is so that they can through the privilege of being elected, speak up and be bolder than the average citizen; because otherwise there’s very little point in having them at all!

So stand up for your elected politician’s right to say whatever he damn well pleases, and next time you’re called a racist for doing so, you’ll perhaps now have a better idea as to why it’s happened.

And before the Leftists here start jumping over people’s reluctance to discuss the irrelevant Thalidomide issue (the tragic irony is that Thalidomide is perfectly safe, and is still widely in use today in the developing world as the most effective treatment we have against Leprosy; it only has its heartbreaking side-effects if it is taken during three key weeks of pregnancy) perhaps they should set us all an example and actually answer the substantive question that is the actual subject of this debate, and was asked of them some time ago; Powell’s own question on race relations at the start of this comment.

If you do not answer it in replying to me, such a response is equally eloquent; and reveals nothing but your own “spineless cowardice,” rather than that of a man with more backbone than you could ever wish for. Somehow I think Brigadier Powell’s campaign medals (El Alamein, Overlord etc.) would stack up against your own quite handsomely.

@Bobsacountrybumkin: (Well, you're not at the moment, but...) First things first:

1. bnpfan is you, bobscountrybunker
2. bobscountrybunker = bnpfan

Get it?

Why the pretence?

I'll post my response to Enoch Powell's pile of shite later (tomorrow afternoon at the earliest, I'm afraid).

In the intermission here's some difficult comedy (don't watch this is you are easily upset by social conflict and people's attempts to deal with their meagre psychological command of their world through humour): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10jmQ_K1qmM&feature=related

p.s. if you're easily offended, then what the hell are you doing here?

p.p.s Really Bob, you are completely humourless. Why are all racists so completely unfunny? Tünde, Pávaszem, Sophie, you....

No, I'm not a fan of the bnp, because they have neo-Fascist origins. But I have enormous respect and admiration for Enoch Powell. (He shares his academic origins with me as a classical scholar. His Professorship was in Greek & Latin.) He was a politician compelled to be motivated by truth and evidence.
The contrast in character between people like that and people like you is extraordinary. What exactly it is that makes people like you think you have a license to call others racist as and when you please without a shred of proof, and furthermore that doing so somehow gives you an automatic argument-winning card, completely escapes me.

It is surprising (well no it isn't remotely surprising to be frank) you find it necessary to have a 24hr hiatus to answer Prof Powell's very very simple question. I shan't hold my breath.
What Powell and Oszkar Molnar share, that the likes of you and I and the Equal Opportunity Authority do not; is that if the people do not like what the former say they can face the ultimate sanction of being voted out of office. It's called Democracy.
And as for you, your the one who has had their true colors revealed chum. No one is in the least bit surprised in how you have chosen to react. Why do Socio-Liberals never have the balls of their philosophical conviction? As Powell would no doubt have said:
πας γαρ ο φαυλα πρασσων μισει το φως και ουκ ερχεται προς το φως ινα μη ελεγχθη τα εργα αυτου.

@Robert: Would love to respond now, but have an immovable deadline and catching time in between tasks. And you deserve a considered response since it took you some 2 hours to write yours.

But really, BNPFAN and YOU are the SAME person, suing the same computer from the same location, with the same text difficulty score, written by a person of similar/same education level etc....

Back later on the topic.

p.s. Don't cut and paste Greek you don't understand. I'm embarrassed for you. Pick a language you know.

http://biblos.com/john/3-20.htm

The Internet is really great; you don't actually have to speak Ancient Greek or Latin to know what Bobs and Van are arguing about.

@Vándorló
The Socialist who's lost an argument always makes a personal attack and avoids addressing the issue. This is standard behaviour. All of us see it, know it and have experienced it a 1000 times.
Oh so I'm Bnpfan now am I? And how do you expect me to disprove a negative? It's like my saying you're too busy to reply because you're actually buffing your bust of Lenin and that you probably keep yourslef entertained on cold winter's evenings with a buttplug in the shape of Kádár; funny, but it can't be proved either way. And neiter your or my suspicions prove anything. So why wast all our time?

Look, here's a controversial idea. Instead of calling people racists, mad, humourless (and since when were you christened Hofi Géza exactly?), cowards or sockpuppets why don't you just answer the simple question? It's been asked of you about six f*cking times now. And still you have the bare face cheek to call other people cowards? Whereas your own dodging would put a slalem skier to shame.
P.S. The baldness on my head from the two months I spent trying to understand the Koine reflexive pronoun begs, sorely, to differ pal.

" Buffing your bust of Lenin" come on Vandorlo, even you have to admit that was funny. I almost fell of my chair laughing ! You have a great sense of humour Bob...on my way out the door, talk to you all later.

Flame war in ancient Greek! Never let it be said the level of commenting discourse here is always low! :)

Dear Erik,

There are times when I am downright proud of this place! We should all be everything that we can be!

Hajrá Magyar!

@ bobscountrybunker

Jaj!! I don’t want to be a spineless coward – I’d rather be a liar and return to Mr. Molnar when I said I would not. ( ok, so I want the excuse and blame it on you.... so leftist, isn't it?)

Obviously I agree with Vandorlo that Powell was nothing but a spineless coward. –I also think he was brilliant - Where does it say that brilliant people cannot be spineless cowards?

You misunderstood my point about Mr. Molnar. The point was that you ought not accuse these women of “intentionally harming their unborn babies in order to secure extra child benefits “ when it’s impossible to prove it.
Let’s suppose every pregnant woman’s blood was tested for alchohol and drugs. Obviously some results would come back positive – Now how do you prove these women were not drug addicts but in fact looking for child benefits? I am jumping to the conclusion that you would agree these allegations would actually have to be proven – perhaps I am wrong

So what exactly is the purpose of the statement? Could it be gaining gratuitous brownie points with a right wing hatemongering crowd?

BTW - There were hues and cries for Powell to be prosecuted under the provisions of a “ Race Relations Act “ which made incitement to racial hatred a crime but the Attorney-General declined to prosecute because he did not think that the Prosecution could prove “intent” - Thus, I totally agree with the decision not to prosecute. (cont...)

Has anyone read a book about Powell’s “diagnosis” of having Asperger’s Syndrome? No idea if there is any merit to the argument. I just saw the allegation while reading a book review about Albert Einstein. (I think the premise was to connect the syndrome with genius genes that lacked the capacity for empathy)

@Erik
Sadly my knowledge extnds only to Koine Greek which is the language of the New Testament. Full Ancient Greek, the language of Plato and Euripides, sadly escapes me.
@olga
Several very interesting points here.
1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Powell could have been prosecuted under the Race Relations Act because wasn't the intorduction of this act what he was objecting to? The criticism of him at the time focused mostly on his figures about the rate of immigration and called them alarmist. Whereas in only a few years his own "alarmist" predictions were dwarfed. The Youtube documentary on Powell says the annual immigration figures he wanred of in '68 are less than the monthly figures of today.
2. Regarding Aspergers I have friends with Aspergers and Powell doesn't strike me as such an individual. I can't speak for Einstein. There certainly is a tendency in the highly academically gifted to be socially awkward, but is this really genetics? It could simply mean they spend more time in the library as a child, while the likes of me are in the playground socialising i.e. trying to look up the girls' dresses. Who knows?

3. Speaking up and pointing out the potentially unpalatable, frequently without a totaly rock-solid legal case of evidence to back things up, is the actual and real responsibility of some groups of people in public life.
We let them do it, and ruffle feathers in the process, because we can't. Politicians are one group, the press and some government agencies are others.
I suppose the point I was trying to make is that politicians have an actual democratic mandate to do this. Therefore the high-and-mightiness of e.g. the press and the Equal Opportunity Authority are severely misplaced, they have no such elected mandate.
And they certainly have no authority whatsoever (and if they do, they should not) of "forbidding" the democratically elected from saying whatever they please. We have the ballot box for that.
If you happen to elect a racist loudmouth as mayor, it is because the people wanted him. If the people no longer want him he may be removed democratically or deselected at the local level by his party. But if they do want him, it may be sickening, but it this is what is meant by democratic government by the people and of the people. Anything else (censorship by the unelected) is not democratic, it is by definition authoritarian. And people, if they chose to engage in moralising platitudes, should be fully conscious of what it is they are advocating.

@ bobscountrybunker - may I call you Bob? (apologies to Sarah Palin who I am imitating even if I say awful things about her)

I got so interested in Enoch Powell, I spent 20 minutes researching old articles about him. I wanted so see the Canadian perspective

I found 2 articles from The Globe and Mail . One was dated May 6, 1968 - it basically described the
furor over Mr. Powell's speech. No matter how I tried, I could not copy the article nor would the website open for you - I think it's because I have a subscription to archives through my local library - website:(http://heritage.theglobeandmail.com/PageView.asp)

Anyway, no new information in the article but I am actually typing out one paragraph for you because it eerily represents my thoughts regarding Mr. Molnar's statement.

"On Saturday, Chancellor of the Exchequer Roy Jenkins strongly criticized Conservative member Enoch Powell for spreading racial myths on the basis of unchecked and uncheckable anecdotes" (
I have no idea what a Chancellor of the Exchequer does, never heard the term)

The second article dated May 3, 1968 made a reference to Sir Elwyn Jones the Attorney-General not to prosecute Powell (so there was talk of it) - there was no mention of not having enough evidence to do so, but I did read it somewhere that no conviction could be expected thus the matter was dropped.

No idea about Asperger’s Syndrome - out of curiosity I put "Asperger’s Syndrome Enoch Powell"
on google search and got a few hits

@olga
bob away...
There is a good documentary on the speech and its impact, on youtube. It's called "Rivers of Blood" and is by a user called JimmyGB. Being by the BBC it is of course has a leftist slant, but it's very interesting.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer is the British title for the Finance Minister, I don't know why this is. But what I do know is that Roy Jenkins was the accepted chief architect of multi-cultural Britain. So it is unsurprising that he reacted in this way.
Interestingly the above documentary also shows how these people, like Jenkins, were forced to concede at the end of their lives that their actions had had severe consequences they had never foreseen. [5:30-7:11]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu4f6rX1KEQ
(Ironic really, because Powell had been busy foreseeing them 40 years earlier and they had been busy condemning him when he was doing so.)

For me the final verdict on Powell is not that he was a coward (plainly false) or a racist (nonsense), but simply that he wasn't a good enough politician. He was not sufficiently cunning, as I said above he had no pragmatism. He was in a way too academic, too cerebral. Had he been more devious he might have achieved his objective, he certainly was smart enough to have done so.
He wanted to shock his countrymen into action, but all he did was shock them into inaction. (Where they have remained ever since.)
It is not that he was a coward, instead he fatally underestimated the cowardice of his contemporaries.

The crucial point is what should a politician do, should he remain silent? “Olga” unsurprisingly dodges this question, Viking and Vándorló are equally utterly silent on it.
bobscountrybunker at October 8, 2009 3:49 PM
---
I can only answer for myself the same thing I have said all the time:
- Of course, every one, not only politicians should speak up, when they get knowledge about something bad.
- But, just because you are a Politician, you do not have a lower burden of proof to prove your point. Why should a politicians be able to lie and say things that would be a libel case for normal people?
-
Enoch Powell was boring already in his lifetime. Time did not do his ideas any good.
Bobsy-gay reminds me of the London Taxi drivers that claimed the reason England went down the drain was the introduction of the metric system for currency in the beginning of the 70s.
Of course. Personally I think we 'Real Europeans' should put more water in the Channel, so that Island floats back to its Master westwards.

Another tedious post from the "false choice"-meister. Politicians either,
a) Meet an undefined "burden of proof," or,
b) They lie and commit what for the rest of us is libel.
There is no in-between.

But the whole point, is that yes! Of course they have a lower burden of proof: that is one of the privileges we entrust them with by being elected officials. They are supposed to be able to say things we cannot. The ordinary citizen may risk losing his job etc., if he speaks his mind. So he elects the politician to speak for him when he cannot. It really isn't that complicated. As I keep saying, it's called democracy; I'm surprised all you Lefties have such trouble with it, you’re always trumpetting yourselves as its defenders, but when it comes to the crunch it always turns out that you want unelected bureaucrats telling us, what we can and cannot say.

There are quite obviously, different grades of burden of proof. Elected politicians cannot be expected to meet the burden of proof required of prosecutors in courts or scientists in labs. The former spend months making their cases, the latter years.

So it is utterly obvious that politicians have a lesser burden of proof, they get to speak for those who cannot. And in the end we trust, in fact hope, that they will not abuse it. Does that make it ok if they do abuse it? No! But if they do, the sanction they should face in a free country is democratic removal: not authoritarian commands to be silent!
Get it?!

@ Bob;

No, I do not think that was clear enough for Viking. Maybe you should say it again, only louder this time!

@ bob

"The crucial point is what should a politician do, should he remain silent? “Olga” unsurprisingly dodges this question" - Ok, let me make it perfectly clear - YES ! Remain silent until you have proof,then charge those who are guilty and be prepared to prove it.

Thanks for the utube website - very interesting. My opinion on Enoch Powell remains the same.

However, I do hold the opinion that "Multiculturilism" as it it stands today is absolute BS - when people immigrate to a country they should accept their laws, culture, customs, holidays etc. If they feel they cannot, they should stay where they came from.

Right now there is a scandal involving a Catholic Bishop in Ottawa charged with possessing and importing child pornography. The evidence has been obtained by seizing his laptop.We all know the number of priests convicted of molesting children.

Can you imagine the Mayor of Ottawa stating: "Catholic Clergy go into the priesthood because they are pedophiles" - That would be hate crime and not freedom of speech; How could the millions of dedicated priests around the world defend themselves? (The Mayor would be forced to resign within 24 hrs)

If everyone who has media access could say anything hateful against any group without a burden of proof, there would be no libel laws.

Should we abolish libel laws altogether to protect free speech? I am sure there are people who feel freedom of speech supersedes "that stupid law"

@Bob - You mention that there are different degrees of proof, and that politicians have a lesser burden of proof. If we put 'proof' on a scale of 0-100, should politicians be allowed to demand action on zero evidence? Every state has limited resources to act, and has to prioritize the usage of its resources on what it deems important, and how much of those resources to use. If it acted when every politicians speaks out on issues with zero evidence, then obviously the state cannot function. So, ultimately, the state (or its agencies) will only act if it sets some level of evidence to act on (be it 5%, 10%, 30% etc) even if it comes from a democratically elected official who can only be removed 4-5 years later.
Now, it can also be considered democratic, if govt of the day decides that there should be an agency or group of individual (appointed or elected) to oversee how elected officials should speak out on priotizing the usage of state resources, then how can this not be democratic? If such an agency is not wanted by the electorate, they can similarly exercise their vote. So, this agency or committee is well within their rights, no, in fact duty (similarly exercising its own freedom of speech) to tell the mayor to shut up or put up (the evidence) if he wants the state to act.

@Bob, Olga - apologies, the above anonymous was from me.
On the issue of multiculturalism, I have no issues with immigrants having to obey the laws of the land. However, who is to decide what the 'customs & culture' of the land are. These things change. 'Anti-social' elements evolve over time due to any number of reasons. Music, clothing, attitudes all evolve - eg skinheads, goths, yobs are all products of a society. Even the US govt recently decided to allow people to be enlisted even if they had tattoos, stating that it recognised that American society had and that tattoos did not have the stigma they used to, and were becoming more socially acceptable. Most of us don't dress like goths, or hoodies, but accept their right to dress like that if they wish. Why should we deny another citizen the freedom to dress in their traditional dress if they wish to.
I don't see an issue with a certain group of people exercising their rights to keep their dress code, so long as it doesn't infringe on another person. To be honest, I'm not very accustomed to dealing with someone in a hijab, although I dont feel threatened by it. Actual, acting out threatening behavior is more scary, and more destructive to society.

@Anonymous
Look, I'm not dodging the issue. I've just said more than enough on this topic, and am getting to the point where I am just repeating myself. There are just a few very fundamental points at work here, and if a person doesn't get them, well they just don't get them.
Your own comment for instance. You seem perfectly capable of differentiating between the "elected" and the "appointed" but then go on to imply that they are of equal democratic value. If this is really what you think, then my engaging with you in an attempt to persuade you is rather like a hairdresser being asked to give a bald man a perm. You have in fact unintentiaonally described the EU very well, we can elect the Parliament but the Commission is appointed by national governments. I quote you, "If such an agency is not wanted by the electorate, they can similarly exercise their vote." So can the EP, even if it wanted to, remove the Commission? Can it fuck.
Also can you imagine scenarios in which governments might find it very convenient to not remove unelected bodies which muzzle parliamentarians when they see fit, and in line with prevailing government policy? If you cannot even foresee these very simple dangers then I really do think I'll most probably be talking until I'm blue in the face, for no useful purpose.
So you'll forgive me if I decline.

@Bob - Of course there is a danger of the committee towing the government line. That's why you exercise your vote and hope that the govt you elect acts responsibly in the interests of the citizens.
Who said anything about muzzling the elected official? The official is still free to continue with his zero evidence claims, but there does not mean that anyone or group (elected or other) cannot tell him to shut up.

@Anonymous
The official is still free to continue with his zero evidence claims, but there does not mean that anyone or group (elected or other) cannot tell him to shut up.
-----
Then we are, in fact, in agreement.

@olga
"Ok, let me make it perfectly clear - YES ! Remain silent until you have proof, then charge those who are guilty and be prepared to prove it."
-----
I am so happy that, at last after 60+ comments, someone has decided to be honest. I am delighted: good for you. Your world would certainly be good for the tax-payer, we can demand our Parliamentarians be paid a lot less because they will have much less to do.

Please forgive me, I do not mean to be condescending or malicious, but your point of view is terribly naive. But at least, unlike the others, you have been unafraid to state the view that they all hold; and for that you should be applauded.

Consider the following scenarios:
1. A Parliamentarian is met by an accountant for a conglomerate that is delivering a government project, this person informs the parliamentarian of massive corruption but they refuse to go to the police or be quoted publicly. (They fear for their families lives, there are billions at stake and ruthless men involved.) All he is willing to do is hand over a file of information, insufficient to prove a case in court on its own but massively circumstantial nonetheless...
2. A transatlantic plane crashes killing 200 and sinking into the Ocean without a trace. The aircraft company blames pilot error, the pilot had been seen to be drinking; the case is closed.

(cont’d)
However, an engineer anonymously contacts a parliamentarian to say that the aircraft company in fact used defective bolts that can shear in certain extreme circumstances. A whole fleet of aircraft with these defective bolts are in service carrying passengers right now, there are nothing but a few e-mails to go on...
or even, 3. A drug is marketed as safe, some people taking it are pregnant women who end up having children with birth defects, a doctor involved in a trial...
Anyway, you get the general idea.

I don't think I need to tell you what your opinion on such matters as expressed above means towards these three scenarios, all of which, in one way or another are actually quite regular occurrences. Neither do I think I need to make explicit to the readership, that it would be these Leftists here (who share your initial viewpoint, but don't have the guts to express it), that would be the very first to jump down the throat of the elected officials if the tragedies followed on and were then revealed to the public. And if that elected official were right-wing to boot? Boy oh boy! The OUTRAGE. “How dare he suppress the facts!!” “He's collaborated in the cover up!!!” Etc.

There is yet another group of people here, that are labouring under the misapprehension that parliamentarians, when necessary, are possessed of this magical ability to click their fingers and thereby summon a crack investigative team that is at their disposal.

(cont’d)
Even perhaps that in between answering the letters of constituents, attending boring trade dinners and debating and voting on passing laws; they should be eating donuts, wearing dark glasses, looking through telephoto lenses and tapping people's phone lines as they engage in late night stakeouts.

I really don't think a lot of people here have the faintest idea about what the duties, capacities and pressures of time of an elected official actually are. The most powerful tool they have, is the one we give them to say whatever they see fit on our behalf. To put it in the simplest terms, it is their speaking out that makes the investigations and evidence gathering happen, not the other way round. This is simply the way democratic societies, which separate the roles of politics (to politicians) investigation (to detectives) and proof gathering and presenting (to lawyers), are structured. If you all want to have an 8000% increase in your taxes so that all elected officials can also come with their own independent evidence gathering and investigative units: I’m all ears.

Anyway, as I said to Anonymous above, I have already far outrun the risk of continually repeating myself on this issue. So please consider this my last post on this topic.

@ George;
Just a couple of comments, in my opinion history decides the customs and culture of the land. Remember, all countries started from somewhere and that should be respected. Yes I agree that countries/cultures do evolve, but there is always a "fundimental core" that should be protected/honoured. I agree, I could care less if you choose to wear a bone through your nose if that is the native dress of your birth country (although it might be an issue if you work in construction and at that point Health and Safety policies/laws take presedence)and I do agree with what you say.
Now, in regards to the hijab. I personally find that GREATLY offensive for the simple fact, what it represents and that is SUPPRESSION of women. As far as I know, the wearing of this "outfit" is a man made law and not what is writen in the Koran (did I spell that right?) just like in Catholicism, it is a man made law that Priest shall not be married and not from God himself.
Muliculturism does not work. It encourages "groups" of people to isolate themselves from the country that has given the "salvation". I see it everyday where I live, and I see it in who joins our Army. A country has to "demand" loyalty, while allowing for people to still honour their heritage. I get that, I am a product of that. My parents were so proud to be Canadian Citizens and equally proud to be Hungarians and so am I. What I fear at the end of the day, when we are asked to "stand and deliver"

con't
will people stand up for the country that they are living in? Or for the country that they were born to and WISH they could live in? That to me is the underlying question and to be quite honest, I am afraid of the answer.

As well, no I have not forgotten that I owe you a list of names of companies that have taken off from Hungary after a 5 year tax break. It is coming, ask Viking or Kreston, it may take me 20 days!

@justasking - I disagree that the culture is/will be the fundamental core. I think the values of the country is probably more important to preserve, but even this is probably not going to be possible in this age. How do you define fundamental core? Is Canada's fundamental core the same as Hungary's? Is a Garda member from Hungary who cant speak English better suited integrate into Canada than a Israeli rightwinger who only speaks Hebrew? Is it better than an Indian doctor or Korean Scientist who has moved & works in Canada but who still speak Korean (or Hungarian) at home, or wear the indian dress at work. Ultimately, it is about the values of the person to adopt the values of the host country. It would be good if the person can also adopt the culture, but that wouldn't guarantee anything. I feel that countries should essentially decide on the values and skills of the immigrants, and try as best as they can to understand the ability of the person to contribute and integrate into the society.
I dont like the hijab, but I know a few people who wear that because they want to as an expression of their faith even if it isn't in the Koran, much in the same way that many Christians go to Church every Sunday even though the bible probably doesn't even mention 'the Church' since it didn't exist when Christianity started. Both are man-made traditions.

Clash of loyalties? - Well, this is always an issue when you allow dual nationalities. Take a look at the Japanese, German soldiers (from US) in WWII, or similarly the American-Vietnamese or American Muslim soldier. Many have distinguished themselves because they identified with the values. If you take a look at the Jews in the US, they are quite vocal in applying non-american values in Israels treatment of the Palestinians, and as 2 professors (Walt and Meersheimer) how they influence US foreign policy to the detriment of the country. Would they be considered Americans or Israelis?
You dread how people would answer, but realistically how would you answer?
Do you defend Hungary when the people discriminate against the Roma (for whatever reasons), or do you apply values in Canada which says, it should not be tolerated the way it is? At which point do you stand and deliver for Canada?
Don't worry too much about the list? I knew it would take you a long time which is why I didnt want to bring it up and push you on that. Hopefully, you'll come up with 1 name before I leave Hungary ;)

@George;
Do not use " Duel Citizenship" card as an excuse for asking where a persons loyaly lies. I can guarantee to that "citizenship" does not mean a pinch of coonshit to some people, it would not matter where they are living at present, they would always be loyal to where they had been born to/religious convictions. As for the rest, I will have to answer you later, I am bloody tired right now. I will though, do not for a second doubt that.

@justasking - wow! That's a new term for me.
Coon Shit - A stinky or smelly black person (urban dictionary). But, I'll respect your freedom of expression here.
It is indeed difficult to assess loyalties, and as you said, some people don't bother a "coon shit" about citizenships. Careful, now, the only guarantee you can give, which can be substantiated, is your personal situation.
Dual citizenships and hence loyalties is usually only tested in extreme situations. This is one of the reasons my country does not allow dual citizenship, and insist that anyone taking up its citizenship make a statutory declaration renouncing their old citizenship which has to be sent to their original country. Similarly, anyone taking up another country's citizenship has to renounce our country's citizenship. The reasoning is that someone who publicly renounces his previous citizenship and throws in his/her lot with the new country is more likely to 'show' loyalty.
Like I said, dont worry too much about the list. I've met 630 local and foreign companies in Hungary in my time here. Some have left Hungary, but none because of expiration of tax-exempt status. In fact, I knew one which built the factory, and did not even start up because Hungary was uncompetitive by then. They returned the grants.

the above was from me. Damn, second time today.

@ bob

Having my morning coffee , reading this Forum. My new morning routine.

The 4 examples you cited - kindly point out how any of them relate to Mr. Molnar's agenda to incite hatred, abuse, hostility toward and possible violence towards a minority group?

Also awaiting your opinion on free speech concerning the hypothetical Ottawa Mayor

We do have something in common - tired of this discussion that's going nowhere but I hope you just give me a one sentence answer on the question
above.

@ everyone who talked about Multiculturalism

I did not object to harmless traditions per se - I was talking about politicians suggesting we call Christmas trees "Holiday Trees" so we don't offend people. I am talking about trying to accept Sharia law. I was thinking of fathers beating (I can cite murder cases as well) their daughters for trying to wear Western clothes. Not to mention FGM (female genital mutilation) in the name of "it's our custom" - well our laws say it's Child Abuse under the Criminal Code.

Check this out - interesting view
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5itCSbJhBOJ4bXXtemLq5wExtpRhgD9B74OO05

@ Curious George - do you call yourself that because your name is George and you are curious or do you just like the cute little monkey?

Curiously enough, in the US, all 3 examples which Bob highlighted have agencies (FBI, NTSB/FAA, FDA) which would investigate the claims if brought to their attention by a senator or representative.

@ George;
NO!NO!NO!
Where I come from, it does not mean what you just said! From here it literally means a "pinch" of Racoon shit. So stop it. I sometimes say politically "incorrect" stuff, but your "example" of what you thought it meant just plain nasty and I do not work that way.

@Curious George
Would they invesitgate? And what if they would not? Moreover, what if the issue at hand concerned corruption/criminality within these organizations themselves? Jesus. Can people not think of these things on their own? Are these concepts really far-fetched? What on earth is the point? This is not the USA its Hungary. We don't have the FBI, we have Draskovics Tibor who does the bidding of his government masters and presents made up footage of explosions as "proof" that political terrorism exists. (And even if we did, look at Watergate where government agency members were doing the covering up and the spying.)
Try and get it into your heads: Government agencies are subject to government pressures to look the other way.
What the fuck is this natural and automatic assumption everyone here has that the appointed is more trustworthy than the elected? Just trust the state, everything'll be just fine. Take your pill and stop making a fuss.

No actually if I think about it, it's not surprising. These state-trusting views are quite clearly all being put forward by people who have no experience of life in Hungary under Communism whatsoever, or indeed are passive supporters of that previous regime. (I'd bet my last Fillér on it.)
Think about that the next time you call people who support Jobbik unthinking Xenophobes, who for some reason keep referring to foreign national residents as people who somehow never "get it."

@olga
"The 4 examples you cited - kindly point out how any of them relate to Mr. Molnar's agenda to incite hatred, abuse, hostility toward and possible violence towards a minority group?"
You have been proven wrong and are now changing the goalposts. This "agenda" is something you are assuming. Your own assumptions are not sufficient cause to circumvent the democratic process. As you know full well the issue at hand is whether or not politicians should be allowed to speak publily with a lower burden of proof. As I said above (repetition!) "And in the end we trust, in fact hope, that they [politicians] will not abuse it. Does that make it ok if they do abuse it? No! But if they do, the sanction they should face in a free country is democratic removal: not authoritarian commands to be silent!"
Moreover, to repeat again. If the Mayor had been approached by constitutents telling him of the harming of the unborn... but didn't tell the press. (As you would require.)
I am convinvced that you lot would be the first to scream at the top of their lungs if the truth of it later emerged into the public eye. And the Mayor saying, "Look, I told the police. If they did nothing that's their fault; and anyway I didn't want to go public without a full airtight legal case, in case I offended the sensibilities of the Roma." Would that be good enough for you? Would it hell!
"Conspiracy!" you'd say, "What was he paid to stay quiet about this scandal!"
...Don't pretend you wouldn't.

Of course they have a lower burden of proof: that is one of the privileges we entrust them with by being elected officials. They are supposed to be able to say things we cannot. The ordinary citizen may risk losing his job etc., if he speaks his mind. So he elects the politician to speak for him when he cannot
bobscountrybunker at October 9, 2009 12:07 AM
---
I beg to differ.
We should all have the right to say things that would not fall into libel.
In a later comment bob uses some imaginary examples where an Elected Politician would be more shielded from reality, like death-threats etc.
Well, is it not the other way around in reality?
Politicians are normally not interested in being 'whistle-blowers'? Here we normally have local Union Reps, Journalists, etc.
-
To go back to this local Hungarian Mayor claiming that Roma, not in his village, but in a neighbouring village, are using special method to create handicapped children to get more money.
He never ever informed the Police about this, he never made any specific evidence public. He has just told a story about face-less unknown people from a local despised minority. To compare this to courages workers/Unions that make public specific information about:
- a specific maintenance measure, or
- bad material in a bolt, or
- bad electrical wiring,
is a bit strange.
Either bob is living in a theoretical fantasy world or he is just another salesperson of
'Me and my race/group is/are always right, regardless what we do'.

Either bob is living in a theoretical fantasy world or he is just another salesperson of
'Me and my race/group is/are always right, regardless what we do'.
----
Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! Whoop!
"FALSE CHOICE ALARM!!"
"FALSE CHOICE ALARM!!"
"FALSE CHOICE ALARM!!"
"FALSE CHOICE ALARM!!"
Quelle fucking surprise.
What an asshole.

@ George;

Okay my dear, I can talk now. Again we were talking about "customs and cultures" that need to be protected, values of a country I think evolves. Canada's customs and culture are completely different from Hungary's, you can not compair the 2. People will have to WANT to integrate into a country, you can not force them...just look at the guys in England that blew up those buses, they were born in Engalnd were they not? Again, I am a product of immigration. At home we spoke Hungarian, when we walked out the door...we were Canadian. Thats how you do it. You allow people the freedom to continue their heritage/religion and inexchange you become loyal to the country that you are a permanent resident. How hard is that to understand?
As for comparing the Hijab and going to church on Sunday...whatever, all I can say is you feel this way because you have an outie and not an innie.
You asked who I would defend in an "extreme situation", without question Canada. I live here, I was born here, I pay taxes here. I went and got my Hungarian Citizenship to show that I am proud of my heritage. I love it's history, the country, the people, the food, the folk music/dancing the language you name it, I love Hungary. If push came to shove, I would defend Canada first though. You asked me if I supported Hungary's discrimination against the Roma or do I use Canada's values. As a matter of fact, Hungary has a history of accepting other nationalities/religions and living in harmony.

con't
Canada also has a history of discrimination to certain nationalities, nobody is perfect. Name me one country that has not discriminated againt at one time or another.

@ Olga;

To me genital mutilation is genital mutilation, I see no difference between circumcision of male or females...I find both repulsive and cruel. I am of the opinion that God wanted you to have that skin there for a reason, especially in Canada where it can get very cold.

@justasking - It's quite funny, but I think, by highlighting your own example, you've just shown that Multiculturalism works. As you say, Hungarian and Canadian culture are totally different, but you've kept both, and as you've shown, they can both be accommodated. That's the very definition of multiculturalism which you said doesn't work earlier today (8.13am).

Being able to integrate, of course is an essential major component of being a successful multicultural society. But this is a question of sharing the societies values, not culture and traditions. I just had a class on culture. Culture has 160 dimensions. The guys blew up the buses were home grown citizens, not immigrants. However, sometimes citizens act in a destructive manner because of their personal philosophy & values (in this case, it was a warped perception of religion). That philosophy could well have been home grown anarchy (1900s), religion (Waco), suspicion of govt (Oklahoma City), or isolation from society (Columbine). The examples I gave were not due to multiculturalism.
The shared value system is important for multiculturalism to work. You cannot demand loyalty to tradition, but you can demand acceptance of values. That would give a better indication of 'loyalty'. Hungary may have a tradition of accepting others, but the value system here is different from Canada's. For eg, a Hungarian immigrant in Canada would probably favour a fellow Hungarian because of his value system,however I (cont)

cont... another Canadian would probably just hire the best candidate because he would not feel any reason to show affiliation. I'm of course referring to new Hungarian immigrants and not loyal Canadians such as you:) Similarly, if I were Canadian, I would also he looking to hire the best candidate even if came across someone from my country because I have a similar value system to Canadians (dont worry, I've no interest in moving there), and I have family there, am able to relate to the events there, and speak both your languages (although my French is a little rusty). Wouldn't you agree?
You still seem to have a problem acknowledging Roma discrimination in Hungary, which, applying the Canadian value system, is quite obvious to most Canadians.
ps- just kidding on the coon shit, but I did google coonshit just to check, and I found that definition. I was thinking coonhound, but I'm also familiar with other term. But I subsequently also found 'pinch of' too.
@Olga - my name is not George, but I do like the monkey, and I am curious and keen to learn.

Once upon a time, there was a fearless Mayor living in Hungary named Molnar. He loved little Roma children even before birth and cared about their health and well being. It came to his attention that pregnant Roma women were abusing drugs in order to have disabled children and qualify for extra government funds.

There was also a wicked bitch, I mean witch. A Roma woman pretending to be Hungarian born and raised in Canada - she used “olga” as an alias. - This gypsy was granted refugee status and collected welfare for herself and 8 children - No one ,including olga knew their paternity (thus no government claw back for support) and she supplemented her welfare benefits through prostitution to support a crack addiction.

Olga without knowing the facts, accused the altruistic Mayor of subscribing to Mob rule, being guilty of libel, having a hidden agenda, not adhering to the “ innocent until proven” nonsense. Such crap.

Time for the truth:

The allegations came to the Mayor’s attention late one night. He immediately called the Police and the local Child Protection agency. They woke up the local Judge who issued a search warrant for the women ‘s homes. They seized the women’s computers and low and behold, on the hard drives, there was plenty of prima facie evidence of was a huge conspiracy to poison the foetuses just like the Mayor said. Some even bragged about this on Facebook.

Contiinued...

Now the Mayor was only human – he wanted the credit himself. Had he not called the authorities, the case would never have come to light.. Thus he went to the media and released the facts knowing full well it was an airtight case for a successful prosecution.

The women, based on solid EVIDENCE were convicted and sentenced to jail. Once the babies were born, they were placed in caring, loving Hungarian foster homes. They grew up with family values and good educations. They are now assets as opposed to liabilities to Hungary.

Olga is pregnant with twins. Still has time to talk shit . Tedious crap about Democratic societies, justice, fairness blah, blah, blah. Booooooring….

Disclaimer: I don’t know how, but some people on this Forum seem to be able to track IP addresses. If it turns out that olga and I come up with the same address, it would be easily explained . Gypsy conspiracy

TO justasking: ‘I love Hungary. If push came to shove, I would defend Canada first though’ (October 9, 2009 6:18 PM).
I envy your certainty. Sorry, therefore, to be querying it anyway. Are you sure you would defend Canada against Hungary? I ask because I am sure that I would be incapable of defending any country against Hungary. Australian born and bred, my tribal instinct is nevertheless Hungarian. I live in Australia, and in France and England, because it is convenient. I live in Hungary when work, study and family commitments allow it, sometimes for a few months, occasionally for a few years, but ‘home’ is there. My parents were child emigrants from Hungary. They returned there the minute it became politically and pragmatically possible. Like them, I never stop banging on about being Hungarian. I wonder what accounts for people’s commitments in this area? In my case, it certainly is not born of anything like resentment of, or exclusion by, Australians or the British. I have never experienced that. Is commitment to the tribe/nation perhaps rather like religion: one imbibes it from birth? I freely confess to Australians and the British that their trust in me would not be well placed if it burdened me with disloyalty to Hungary. You know, I seriously wonder, coming from my own starting point, whether host nations would be well advised to scrutinise ‘alien’ elements carefully.

At home we spoke Hungarian, when we walked out the door...we were Canadian. Thats how you do it. You allow people the freedom to continue their heritage/religion and inexchange you become loyal to the country that you are a permanent resident. How hard is that to understand?
justasking at October 9, 2009 6:18 PM
---
I suppose a Slovak Nationalist could not have formulated it better regarding the Hungarian minority's responsibilities and of course, outside their own homes they are, just that, 'Slovaks'.

@Viking - I have to say that was probably the funniest comment I've heard on these boards this year.

@Curious George
And I suppose that the Hungarian Magyar communities have been there for over a 1000 years makes no difference? I'm sure justasking is perfectly capable of differentiating between communities who come to countries as immigrants - by choice. And communities that have not changed, and have infact had countries growing up around and enforced upon them - with no choice.

This capability to differentiate the biltheringly obvious, is clearly absent in those that would never dream of letting the facts get in the way of their smug platitudes; and whose only qualification for saying such witless nonsense: is a complete ignorance of Central European history.

What comes out of these people is either stupefying ignorance, or knowing misrepresentation; neither of which I think are qualities people should in fact actively pursue. And the preceding statement is by no means a "false choice."

@Bob - Of course justasking and all of us (including Viking) understood that. But there was no intentional misrepresentation unlike some of your comments (90% comes to mind).
There are some of us who understand and accept that countries, people, culture, technologies, religion, traditions and values are not static and change over time. Regardless of a region's history, these changes affect all countries, and will continue at a more rapid pace than ever before.
People can choose to adapt with the changes, or try to moderate the changes if they understand where it is coming from, and understand/project its impact on their society. But believing it has not occurred is delusional.

@Bob - ps, the Nikes and cornflakes don't even come close!

@Curious George
"But there was no intentional misrepresentation unlike some of your comments (90% comes to mind)."
-----
Indeed?
Really. What I can't understand, and probably never will, is whether you guys actually think you're fooling anyone. Or just come out with all this guff because you're incapable of communicating in any other way. Let's look at the rest of your comment:
-----
"There are some of us who understand and accept that countries, people, culture, technologies, religion, traditions and values are not static and change over time. Regardless of a region's history, these changes affect all countries, and will continue at a more rapid pace than ever before.
People can choose to adapt with the changes, or try to moderate the changes if they understand where it is coming from, and understand/project its impact on their society. But believing it has not occurred is delusional."
-----
Please, enlighten me. What remote point. What illumination of facts. What aid to understanding does any of this Socio-Liberal claptrap you've just entirely wasted your time, and mine, vomiting all over the keyboard, provide? What function does it serve? It sure as hell means absolutely nothing of relevance, whatsoever. It's just Grade-A horse manure. And that's all it is. Did you spend time agonizing over it, I wonder. Did it take you effort to assemble such a nonsensical jumble of phrases?

(cont’d...)
Consider.
An old Magyar lady lives in the Slovak border territory. Her family, her people have resided in that area FOR A PERIOD SPANNING THREE MILLENIA. Slovakia is 16 years old. And if her Magyar postman remarks “Dicsértessék etc.” of a Morning he is to be fined €5,000. There is a name for this, it is called reality. This is not where you live. Why? Because do you know what you do?

You go up to this woman, you, a person who would scream the house down in moral Leftist indignation if a Roma immigrant speaking Romani was subject to this treatment in a country they had moved to!

@ George/Viking;
Yes, multiculturism works if people work at it. That's the point, that some people do not work at it.

The term "Multiculturism" is now used as a shield against the "majority" by the "minority".

According to you two, the "minority" they and they alone are allowed to retain, infact promote their culture/religion in a "new" country while the "majority" are to accept that culture, values etc change over time. That about sums up what the 2 of you have been saying right? Well, you both can have a long hard suck on my asshole if that seems just to you.

@Elle;
By the time that it was possible for my parents to safely move back to Hungary, they were already established in Canada and the opportunities they felt would be better in Canada rather then Hungary. Does that make them "less" Hungarian, I do not think so, who does not want the best for their children. My parenst chose to "have the best of both worlds" by living in Canada as well as making us aware of our heritage by surrounding us in it, and God Bless them for that. So you see, I can definitely say that I would choose Canada first and Hungary second. That does not mean that I would not feel physically ill/broken hearted for having to have been forced to make such a decision.

@ Bob;

Thanks for jumping in for me and having to expalin the difference between voluntarily moving to a country and having your country stolen from you.

@Bob – Yawn!
I’m not interested in the past 1000 years, or even the past 100 years. No one can even turn the clock back 20 years!
I’m more interested in what is going to happen to Hungary in the next 20 yrs, and finding any solutions to some of its current problems - something that you have yet to show in ANY of your posts. Cheap rants aren't worth squat.
Within 2 years, the choices Hungarians make, and the subsequent developments will show if Hungary’s next 20 years go down the drain.
If you consider that Hungary:
a. Is in a huge financial hole,
b. Has no long-term development objectives.
c. No competitive industries to support the above, or planned investment in any.
d. Can’t manage a bus, train, or water works company without crying foul
e. Has a population where 75% cant speak a 2nd language
f. Declining education standards
g. Internal social problems, unneeded political problems with its neighbours
h. Nepotism and corruption rife in the country
i. Declining health system and shortened life-spans.
j. A diaspora who seems more interested in trying to turn the clock back,

where exactly do you think the positives are vis-à-vis its neighbours,……its glorious/tragic past? Whoopee!
Btw, the old lady is living in a region which has not been part of Hungary for almost a century. You think the yelling solution (again) is more important for Hungary’s govt than actually solving the above problems. Talk about not understanding elected officials' responsibilities.

cont’d Hungary is seriously lagging behind its main neighbours on almost all of the above. And if you think this can be brushed under the carpet, you are even more clueless than you think I am about Hungary. If you’ve got ANY solutions at all, let hear them instead of your puffed up verbal diarrhoea, or is spouting Greek all you know.

During the summer, I visited Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Thailand, India, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia to better understand the economic developments and competitiveness there. You’ll be shocked to learn how much and how organized these countries have been, in investing in future competitiveness which will probably pay off in 10-20 years. Hungary’s neighbours would be able to maintain their current levels for at least 5-7 years even without that investment.

Hungary ranking of 62 (and falling), is way below Czech (35), Estonia (39), Slovenia (41), Poland (50), Slovakia (51), let alone countries like Lithuania, Tunisia and Azerbaijan. Even if Hungary drastically changed all its policies today to play catch up, the ranking will only change in a few years (after they’ve taken effect), and the economic effects on the population can only be seen in 10 years. You think Mercedes saw Hungarian companies’ cutting edge ability in the auto industry. Get real! They’re only here because of location, and cheaper labour, and if the value-added component subsequently decreases, they’ll find someone else who can do it better. (cont’d)

cont'd I met some Hungarian students a couple of weeks ago. They all told me they thought the only way they’d get a good job is if they, or their parents/relatives, knew someone in the firm. They all hoped, when the time came (in 1-2 yrs), the recruitment manager would be a foreigner. One prof found a 13pt difference between his students in Vienna and Hungary for the same course. That just about says it all on education.
@justasking – No, that’s not what I’m saying. You kept your Hungarian culture but still consider yourselves to be integrated. That is multiculturalism. Dozens of other immigrant nationalities go about their daily lives interacting with each other without any difficulties. The reason you don’t think so, is because you choose to focus on minority that look or dress different from you,and you resent them exercising same freedoms you have. You don’t seem to have a problem with Elle asserting her Hungarianess and her loyalites. Would a Canadian citizen who wore a hijab, but put Canada first be less Canadian than someone like Elle. The bulk of this ‘minority’ you talk of is not suggesting FGM, or even compulsion to wear the hijab, but you want to believe so.
We didn’t misunderstand the difference between immigrating and having borders changed by a treaty. But it had a funny ring to it, since Viking did that using YOUR words, and without having to use crude imageries like cornflakes, or insinuations like Nikes.
About your asshole, I’ll decline.

*scrolls down and sees three comments worth of text to read*
Nah.
Can't be arsed.

@mr90% - thought as much - nothing up there! Only looking to ejaculate on your screen.

At home we spoke Hungarian, when we walked out the door...we were Canadian. Thats how you do it. You allow people the freedom to continue their heritage/religion and inexchange you become loyal to the country that you are a permanent resident. How hard is that to understand?
justasking at October 9, 2009 6:18 PM
====
I suppose a Slovak Nationalist could not have formulated it better regarding the Hungarian minority's responsibilities and of course, outside their own homes they are, just that, 'Slovaks'.
Viking at October 9, 2009 10:18 PM
====
And I suppose that the Hungarian Magyar communities have been there for over a 1000 years makes no difference? I'm sure justasking is perfectly capable of differentiating between communities who come to countries as immigrants - by choice. And communities that have not changed, and have infact had countries growing up around and enforced upon them - with no choice.
bobscountrybunker at October 9, 2009 10:55 PM
====
@ Bob;
Thanks for jumping in for me and having to expalin the difference between voluntarily moving to a country and having your country stolen from you.
justasking at October 10, 2009 3:23 AM
====
Aboriginal peoples in Canada comprise the First Nations, Inuit and Métis.
Old Crow Flats and Bluefish Caves are the earliest known archaeological sites of human habitation in Canada.
With justaskings' and bob's logic:
- if you were there first 'you own the place',
at least if you are a 'Real Hungarian',
others do not apply...

@ George;

Your right, suggesting that somebody "ejaculate onto their screen" is way less crude. With that in mind, I sure if you ask really nicely, Bob will let you have it as a screensaver after he's done. What do you think Bob, is that fair enough?

@ZZ - Wanting such a screen saver must be a girl thing. You're welcome to have it, since you seem to like 90% Fact-Free. You'll even get a new design every time he hits the send button.
Us guys, we'll just 'stick' to the facts, thanks!

@ Georgie;

You call that a comeback (excuse the pun) a "girl" thing, when you were the one who suggested it to a guy? Are you sure you want to continue down this road? Or do you want me to let you go so that you can "stick" to the "facts" with your "guys"? Nudge, nudge, wink, wink

@ZZ – Oh dear, you’ve misunderstood again! There are only so many things you can do to a keyboard or screen – spit, vomit, defecate or ejaculat. Given the style & content of his comments here and elsewhere, I get the distinct impression, he gets a climax every time he touches the return key.
I'm just stressing that, while different points of view are alright, I would prefer if bloggers stuck to established facts in their arguments instead of showering us with exaggerated, fact-free claims such as 90%, 3000 years of 'her' people......usw.
Of course, I haven't forgotten your own claim of all those foreign companies leaving Hungary because they lost their tax exempt status. I am still waiting for that list
You, on the other hand, seem more interested in talking about foreskins, ejeculate screen-savers & gay sex, sucking up to 90%, and even peddling your prolapse. And that's just on this page. I hope it’s not catching!
btw, what’s a comeback?

TO justasking: ‘By the time that it was possible for my parents to safely move back to Hungary, they were already established in Canada and the opportunities they felt would be better in Canada rather then Hungary. Does that make them "less" Hungarian, I do not think so …’

Thanks for this and the rest. And no, I have no intention of thinking you or your parents ‘less Hungarian’. Rather, my aim is to point to the blithe existential ease of the ‘I am Hungarian/Canadian/Irish, etc’. declaration, in contexts where it is not forced upon one or forbidden one, like in your context and mine. But that is not also the context of bobscountrybunker’s ‘old Magyar lady [who]lives in the Slovak border territory’, as I know you would agree. Like you and bobscountrybunker, I just cannot see where the premises are of people who dismiss the total absence of existential ease in her experience of her nationality. (Actually, I can see their premises, but I thought that they had become obsolete with Stalin.)

@ Elle;

Can I ask you something without you taking offence? Why choose a country (Hungary) over the one that you were born and raised in(Australia)? Why can you not feel loyalty to Auz first? I do not mean to put you on the spot, that is not my intention nor is it to embarrass you.
I ask because some of the other "first generation' Hungarian Canadians that I grew up with, feel the same as you. I understand the connection to Hungary, somedays I feel more Hungarian then I do Canadian and other times, especially after I have just come back from a visit from Hungary, I feel so blessed to be able to call Canada home. In my opinion, life seems so much harder in Hungary, I say this after visiting with some of Apu's friends in Zala this spring. They looked so much older then they actually were, that took me back.

@ Elle;

Forget that last question, I reread what you had posted way up near the top and understand what you were/are trying to say. Sorry.

@Bobscountrybunker: Back to your question, or rather Enoch's: "But I ask this question. If a member of parliament in his own constituency in the place where he lives, sees certain to him real, growing and threatening dangers, which are brought to his attention by his constituents of every race and class, is he to be silent? Is he to say nothing about it? Is he to suppress the facts?"

First, a slight digression, I repeat that you are BNPFan and if you deny it you are as spineless and dishonest as one would expect. BNPFAN used YOUR computer from YOUR location. I have it all logged. YOU ARE BNPFAN. Pathetic!! Illeist!!!

So, back to the question.

Well let's break it down to see the tricks he plays. He starts by making it clear that the topic he is going to talk about it one of his own personal concerns, as based on only his own observations. He even points out that the topic is one that HE believes to be important, emphasising the personal aspect of the content he is about to address. He does all this by clearly stating "sees certain to him real". Certain TO HIM. Something he believes to be real, as opposed to actually real or unequivocally the case. It was his BELIEF.

@Bobscountrybunker:

But then he goes on to state that as well as being his own concerns, these are in fact the concerns of a great number of his constituents. These people have even been so concerned as to contact him and raise these concerns. Moreover, those raising these concerns are not limited to one social class, ethnicity or sub culture. As stated: "which are brought to his attention by his constituents of every race and class".

Nice use of illeism (referring to himself in the third person), a quaint rhetorical trick to make a personal remark appear to be objective rather than subjective, which is clearly introduced to back up the claim that others had raised these concerns with him. Now the earlier statement that these points are ones that HE believes to be important are to be taken as to be ones universally shared reported as someone else's opinions (his third person self) and even his own opinions are now to be taken as objective and balanced in contrast to the earlier statement that they are subjective and personal in nature. Enoch was in fact a habitual Illeist and very annoying habit it is too - a clear sign of a patronising twat.

@Bobscountrybunker:

As Vándorló has noted elsewhere this trick of reporting ones own subjective ideas in the third person would allow one to imply and assert an objectivity for the statements made that they do not intrinsically own. On this Vándorló and I are in complete agreement. Further it multiplies and asserts a sense of consensus. But it is consensus with one's self alone.

So, OK these other people that raised their concerns, did they? Did they exist? Well no!! He made that up too. He tried to sue people who he claimed libelled him, but when it became clear he would have to produce these or any letters from "his constituents of every race and class" he dropped his suit. He had no letters, he made it all up. They were his opinions. His alone. His first sentence never lied. These were things he considered certain. Others hadn't asked him as their MP to speak on their behalf.

"Is he to say nothing about it?" No one should choose the appropriate time and place. As an MP, a member of parliament in a democracy, I would suggest Parliament where the issue can be intelligently discussed with your peers and those running the country can look at your constituents' concerns in detail. That is, if they are real and you haven't simply made them up. Or, at the very least, sought to completely misrepresent the form and strength of those concerns.

@Bobscountrybunker:

"Is he to suppress the facts?" Enoch meant of course: "Am I meant to suppress the facts". Now, all of a sudden these concerns, that were his opinions and things he saw to be certain, that mutated into the concerns of invented hordes of imaginary constituents are now 'facts'. Facts!! Like when you boil water under earth's atmospheric pressure at sea level (~100,000Pa) it will boil at 100 degrees C, that kind of fact. Something universal, something undeniable and provable. A fact is a fact, it is not a matter of opinion, not subject to the sway and vagaries of public opinion.

So, to answer his question as it should have been expressed: "Should an MP be able to express his/her opinion about matters which s/he believes concern his/her constituents (but for which he/she has no proof)?" Well yes, s/he should express those opinions, but as opinions. They should express them through the appropriate channels in an appropriate manner with a clear intention to resolve those concerns to the benefit of all involved.

They should not seek to express their own opinions and pass them off as the majority opinions of others, in a manner that misrepresents their importance with the intention to stir up social unrest and with absolutely no intention of dealing with the issues of concern to them.

n.b. His question was though a lovely rhetorical cadence from personal belief, through to shared observation passed off as plain fact.

Okay, so lets say that Enoch "did make it all up"...and? As far as I can tell, all the he "predicted"...has it not in fact happened/come true?

As well, can somebody explain to me why people feel the need to write under "several" usernames? And why would somebody think is so important to have to "investigate" the source/where the username is coming from?

Would it be that bad if there was really only 10 of us on this site? So what, makes for more intimate/truthful conversations when you "know" the person you are talking to ...no?

@justasking: Personally, if we are going to address the topic that is germane to anything Enoch claimed to care about we should just focus on Hungary. This is a forum that has that as its focus and of more interest to me.

Immigration/emigration and the ethnic makeup of Hungary now and in the past is an interesting topic for discussion.

On the name thing, I don't really care, but for the fact we have people agreeing with themselves and trying to pass off this as consensus.

Also introducing quotes from Enoch Powell to this forum is completely irrelevant to the socio-economic makeup of Hungary. It is simply an attempt at a trojan horse argument to pass off Bob's personal concerns as those of a wider group of people - mirroring Powell's duplicity. Tükör nincs otthon fiam.

@ Vandorlo;

I have yet to see the comments attached to any article on this site, stay relevant to that article. Half the "fun" is following where the conversation takes off to. Hell the other day, I was talking frozen turkies with Laci and Olga, just after stating my position on circumcision.
My point is, I do not think that we need to be told what we can and can not talk about.

@justasking: úgy van belátom!

dear Zsuzsa and Vándorló !

Erik is the "producer" and this site is just a stage, but we are the actors and stars that make it alive! Sometimes we stick to the script, other tmes we ad lib and make it up as we go along! Like real show business people, we pour our hearts out, whether there are 5 people in the theater or 5000!

@ Vandorlo;

Eppen ideje hogy egy vajanyon vagyunk!

Z

@ Laci;

I always wanted to win an Oscar!

@bobscountrybunker and justasking: You may be interested to know that the UK government will apologise later today to the victims of the thalidomide scandal. Yes, that's right they call what Powell was complicit in hiding and supporting a scandal, as any normal person would. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8458855.stm
The important thing was that he kept his buddies happy.

It is strange to see this thread given a new life when just the other day there was a program on HirTV about gypsy mothers damaging their children for more government aid. They interviewed some gypsy women and a gypsy leader and they gave the name of the medication the use to damage their babies.
Molnar spoke the truth but some people do not care about the truth if it is politically expedient to attack the messenger.
They even had a criminologist to discuss what they could do to stop it. It seems that it is very difficult to criminalize these gypsy women damaging their babies with medication because other activities can also damage children, such as alcohol consumption and smoking. It is true that expectant mothers that drink and smoke do not intentionally damage their babies but the still damage them. They concluded that it would be hard for the criminal system to judge the intent. It seems that the legal system is helpless and expectant gypsy mothers can go on damaging their babies and get the extra money for their unique “mother love”.
I did not follow Molnar’s suit against those EO yoyos but curious what became of it.

Mark,

"when just the other day there was a program on HirTV"

Date? Time? Name of program? Link to Youtube? If you could just show this forum some respect just some of the time, I might begin to believe you.

@Vandorló:

There is a really interesting article on Powell and Thalidomide here:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_extracts/article6832147.ece

The Europian court had to slap the British government and justice system to make all the information available, very intriguing ...

BTW: I'm also interested in this because a former collegue of mine had that syndrome - and Thalidomede was developed (and not thoroughly enough tested!) by a German company.

@Sophist
I show this forum exactly as much respect as they deserve, some I respect, and some I do not. I do not do requests and you should do your own work but this is a good start. I got this using Internet search:

HírTV - Belföld :: Három H1N1-es kismama életéért küzdenek
A főorvos azonban megjegyezte, az anyák és a babák ... van, a hónap eleje óta mélyaltatásban tartják. (hírTV ... A cigány asszony elárulta a magzatkárosító gyógyszer www.hirtv.hu/belfold/?article_hid=298582

The key is “A cigány asszony elárulta a magzatkárosító gyógyszer”

Sophist,
I think Mark means this link:
-
http://www.hirtv.hu/belfold?article_id=304884
-
It refers to a Célpont program on HirTV, but I cannot find the reference to that show itself, so still nothing from the 'horse mouth'.

Mark,

your link goes to an article on H1N1??

I hope you appreciate Viking holding his hand. If it is the link you intended it doesn't seem go beyond "egy cigány asszony elárulta...". Of course there are drugs which will "a születendő gyermek pszichés fejlődését gátolja." But that doesn't established that anyone has been deliberately poisoned by them.

Vandor;

Always those quaint little jabs!

@justasking: I'm retarded, you should make allowances.

@Wolfi: Cheers, I did read that at the time. Puts the nature of this 'principled' man into perspective.

@ Vandorlo, Viking, Wolfi

"egy cigány asszony elárulta." is that the Hungarian version of "Reliable sources said" or "Friends of XXX disclosed" etc.

Or maybe the cigany asszony's name was "Egy"

BTW, since thalidomide is being discussed

I once read a theory - but never heard it again that thalidomide did not cause the deformities.

Those fetuses were meant to be aborted by Mother Nature because of the deformities, but the drug prevented it.

Either way the drug was not properly tested and the outcome resulted in a tragedy, cover up etc.

Olga,

"Or maybe the cigany asszony's name was "Egy""

And did you notice Mark wrote " 'A' cigány asszony elárulta" (my apostrophes). 'A' a little word that makes a big difference. Do you think it was a slip or media manipulation???

@ Sophist

Sorry, I should have addressed you in my posting.
You seem to be one of those annoying people who actually want facts.

Very clever that you noticed that - I didn't.

Sorry I can't answer your question, I am looking at the Hungarian phone book and see if I can find a listing for "Egy" - no luck so far.

So much for treating any of you “with respect”. I helped you find the program that has the discussion and instead of viewing it, all you can do is smart mouth. Unable to deal with the fact that Molnar was right. You are too ignorant to view the video, make your own conclusions based on what the video contains, and instead chew on a word out of context. People such as you have no integrity. You and your fake questions deserve no consideration.

@ Olga;

Actually, the drug in question was not to help prevent spontaneous miscarriages; but, to help prevent/control severe cases of morning sickness.

Mark,
No one has been able to find the video.
Only a small article speaking about the video, but where is it?

This article describes things that they discussed in the video. The difference is that in the video they had a criminologist who discussed what they could do to prevent it. The video would be useless to anyone who cannot read this article but if anyone wants to see it, find it. I am done helping you ungrateful lot.

2010-01-08 21:00
A cigány asszony elárulta a magzatkárosító gyógyszer nevét

Több borsodi roma vezető is elismerte, hogy vannak olyan cigányasszonyok, akik terhességük ideje alatt tudatosan szednek olyan gyógyszereket, amelyek ártanak a magzatnak.

A Célpont stábjának egy Bódva-völgyi település kisebbségi önkormányzatának vezetője azt mondta, hogy a cigány anyák azért szednek nagyon erős nyugtatókat, hogy a bennük fejlődő magzat sérüljön, és a szülés után a beteg gyerek után több családi pótlékot kapjanak.

Műsorunkban egy cigány asszony elárulta a magzatkárosító gyógyszer nevét is, amelyről később a toxikológus azt mondta, hogy valóban alkalmas arra, hogy a születendő gyermek pszichés fejlődését gátolja.

but if anyone wants to see it, find it. I am done helping you ungrateful lot
Mark at January 14, 2010 5:06 PM
----
Conclusion:
===========
There is no video.
The text Mark pasted was the same as in the link I gave earlier, but Mark has nothing clever to say and want to cover up his tracks by double (and soon triple) posting the same info in true spirit of Göbbels.

Göbbels learned from your Ilya Ehrenburg

Göbbels learned from your Ilya Ehrenburg
Mark at January 14, 2010 5:43 PM
---
I never heard of Ehrenburg before Mark introduced him a couple of weeks ago.
Now I've read up on him and as usual Mark is off the Mark.
Ehrenburg was one of many Soviet writers, along with Konstantin Simonov and Aleksey Surkov, who have been accused of lending their literary talents to the hate campaign against Germans during World War II
His article "Kill" published in 1942 — when German troops were deeply within Soviet territory — became a widely publicized example of this campaign, along with the poem "Kill him!" by Simonov.
Mark has published an edited version, but of course is it propaganda what Ehrenburg writes aimed to the Soviet soldier.
-
On Mark's point that Göbbels learnt from Ehrenburg?
There is no proof that they knew each other in the early days and it is hard to see what Göbbels could have learned from Ehrenburg. Ehrenburg was a writer, Göbbels a politician
-
Goebbels used modern propaganda techniques to psychologically prepare the German people for aggressive war and the annihilation of civilian populations
Among other propaganda devices, he accused many of Germany's ethnic and national minorities (such as the Poles, the Jews, the French) of trying to destroy Germany, claiming that Germany's belligerent actions were taken in self-defense
-
Hhm, does this not feel very much like the tactic of our resident Jobbik-people?
- Accusing minorities and foreigners
- "We are just defending"

“We lied in the morning, we lied in the evening...We
did everything to keep that secret to the end of the
electoral campaign...We screwed up, big time...No
country in Europe has been so blatant. We obviously
lied through the past one and a half to two years.
And meanwhile, we didn't do a thing for four years -
- nothing”.

Mark,

"You are too ignorant to view the video"

I'm beginning to like you, you can really crack me up. By the way, do Mummy and Daddy know you're spending so much time on the internet, they wouldn't want it to interfere with your homework.

Justasking,

"the drug in question was not to help prevent spontaneous miscarriages; but, to help prevent/control severe cases of morning sickness"

This sounds promising, so can we have the name of the drug in question, and the source of this precious information - assuming of course, that you haven't also concluded that I am too ignorant to understand it.

@Sophist:

Thalidomide (the German inventors Chemie Grünenthal called it Contergan) was derived from the barbiturates and originally used as a (harmless) sleeping pill.

Pregnant women using it found out that it also helped prevent that "Morning sickness", so it was widely used by them ...

One of Chemie Grünenthal's scientists gave it to his pregnant wife -the child was born without ears!

It was a kind of tragedy or scandal really, they were in a hurry to market it (make money!) and didn't test it properly - only a woman at the US FDA would not allow the product to be sold ther without further tests, so the USA was lucky. That woman later got a medal.

The whole scandal is well documented on wiki.

PS:

Also those evil communists in Eastern Germany did say there were not enough tests, so it was not used there. Only a few children with the typical deformations were born there, because relatives from Western Germany had brought this easy sleeping pill ...

@ Sophist;

What's your problem?

The only reason why I did not type in "thalidomide" in that post was because I was too lazy to write it down so I would not misspell it. It was easier just to saw "the drug in question"

Now, am I to assume that you are too ignorant to understand that? Or, am I just assuming this?

You do realize, acting like an asshole does not suit you one little bit.

Wolfi,

"Thalidomide"

WTF - this is still available? And this is what the alledged foetus poisoners of Edeleny are using?

Either my wires are utterly crossed - it's a very long thread, and I skimmed - or could you give me link connecting Thalidomide and Edeleny.

@Sophist
I say that you are ignorant because if we can believe you, you live and teach in Hungary. I pity your students. If you were not ignorant, you would have picked up enough Hungarian to read the article I pasted in and would have seen that the problem of expectant gypsy mothers damaging their children for more aid is more widespread than Edeleny. You seem to know all about Hungary and Hungarian politics. That is how you come off with your opinions and judgments about everything. How come you know all that but not enough to read a simple article? This is what I meant by ignorant and only because I did not want to call you stupid.

OK, let makes some things straight.
I had an adopted A-cousin (cousin of a cousin) who was born with what in Sweden we called Neurosedyn. It was the Swedish brand of Talidomid. In Germany the brand was Contergan.
According to the Swedish wiki the patent has gone out and it is today manufactured by Chemie Grünenthal i Tyskland, Celgene in the US, Alan Pharmaceuticals in GB and several pharmaceutical factories in Brasil.
Talidomid can already in low doses cause severe deformations. This will if the woman takes talidomid between day 20 and 36 of the pregnancy, which is normally to early for the woman to know that she actually is pregnant.
In Sweden talodomid is not allowed to sell, I would expect that is the same thing in all EU.
I never heard anything about talodomid outside the 'Western World' (as Wolfie points out).
Any one that knows how it is possible to buy talodomid in Hungary, please rise your hand (and give us all the contact-info).
I am still assuming that the Hungarian pharmaceutical market is harder regulated than even the Swedish.
-
I may conclude that my handicapped A-cousin was murdered by his so called girlfriend and her new boyfriend in a forest outside Stockholm.
He never could accept his faith and went in to alcohol and drugs as soon as he could.
Because of severance pay due to the trauma he suffered, he was not poor, but he spent money on drugs. In the end he was not a very nice person to be around.
The killers got their punishment, but they also used drugs.

@ Mark

Re: "The difference is that in the video they had a criminologist who discussed what they could do to prevent it"

Maybe that's the problem - it does not fall within a criminologist's expertise to prevent "it"

"It" being unfounded allegations.

Perhaps they discussed "it" with a Prosecutor. The Prosecutor would most likely have said : "it" cannot be proved, therefore next time you make unsubstantiated unprovable and spurious accusations, please don't bother me.
When you have evidence including evidence regarding the motive (to get more gov't money) then we will talk.

Until then concentrate on making up more ridiculous stories to get the anti-Roma votes."

I think your forte is the imagined enemy and the past - not legal issues.

I am trying to figure out what is going on here. Mark made a comment about a show that he saw. He then provided a link, to support what he said he saw. Now this is not good enough for you guys?

So Viking can't seem to find the video, and suddenly it is Marks problem and not HirTV?

Surely, even you people recognize how pathetically your grasping at straws I hope.

He then provided a link, to support what he said he saw. Now this is not good enough for you guys?
justasking at January 14, 2010 8:40 PM
----
Dear justasking,
Mark provided a BS-link, it was not even close to what he suggested.
I found an article that was about he claimed, but there is no video.
This is not the first time Mark do this.
Just remember when he was suppose to prove his claim that Sweden was Hitler's big weapon supplier?
He used the link I used and it did not state anything about Sweden doing any weapon business with Hitler-Germany.
This is his way to run away and leave a cloud of dust behind him to cover his tracks.
He is like that.
You cannot trust the guy, it is that simple.

@ all Molnar fans:

Posting that Roma women were harming their babies without proof and details is hateful and disgusting beyond words.

Did it every occur to you that no "symptoms" were ever reported or supposed disabilitiess ever described?

The Thalidomide babies were easily identified because of the similar deformities - in fact the actual deformities eventually led to what the Mothers were prescribed by their doctors.The common thread was taking thalidomide.

Babies around that time born with a host of genetic diseases were not confused with the thalidomide babies. Nor were babies born as a result of FAS (fetal alcohol syndrome)

Crack babies are easily recognized these days because of the neurological problems.

So when Oszkar Molnar issued his hate propaganda, not only did he not offer proof but he did not offer the symptoms that leads to the mysterious poison which "egy cigany asszony" identified.

So pray tell - just exactly what are the symptoms
and disabilities of these poisoned babies?

If it were true as opposed to a lie, you would still have problems for "motive" as opposed to "drug addicition" - FAS babies are born because the Mothers are alcoholic not because of some huge ulterior motive.

Get a life and stop using babies to spread your hate

Dearest Viking;
Mark: "There was a program on HirTV"-thats it! Thats all he said.
Sophist: Demanded- "Date, Time blah, blah, blah"
Mark, then provided a link, yes to an article, that said exactly what he said it did. You, like the quick little bunny that I know you are, zipped over to HirTV looking for a "video". Now, I will give you that I was under the assumption that a "program=show" as well.
Since I do not know Mark very well, I will give him the benefit of the doubt and say MAYBE when he said "program", in his experience, that could mean an article as well, similar to a "program" one picks up at an Opera or something?

Okay, okay, that even sounds lame to me. But the point is, HirTV, posted an article on it's web-site for all to see, what Molnar had claimed all those months back.

@ Olga;
It's truely is shocking how ignorant you are. Do you know what criminologists are/do? Stupid question, I know you don't.
A criminologist is a person who studies and investigates crime, criminals, criminal behaviour etc. A profesional that one would hire, to explain the aforementioned. What to look for when investigating etc.
A Prosecutor on the other hand, prosecutes people of crimes. It is the job of a prosecutor to "make a case" with what he's got, NOT to advise if a case is winnable or not.
Again, here you have a TV company, displaying an article, for all to see, supporting the claim by Molnar.
One point for Mark, zip for team Meatheads.
Trust is never that simple.

justasking,
The article is not proving anything, it only relates that the in the program there are this and that.
If there were hard-facts why can we not see them on black-and-white?
Why should a TV-program not present their findings?
HirTV has a tendentious style, like FOX, so I wait with any verdicts until something verifiable exists.
Hungarian TV-channels are full of 'experts' that say what the TV-channel wants them to say (something that makes headlines).
Any way Olga is correct in that Talidomid gives very distinct birth-defects (hands directly connected to your elbows etc). Any baby born with that would immediately be investigated for that drug. And as I wrote, you have a very short time window where that drug make any use.
-
If you want a brain-damaged baby, why not just shake it?
Why this complicated process of hitting the stomach or eating strange pills, that also hurt the mother?
Just shake it enough when it is a few months and it will have all your brain problems you want for the rest of its life.
This is what bad parents do in the rest of the world, especially as the child will never stop crying.

@ Viking;

So, now it's up to Mark to provide not only the video; but, the proof as well? Give your head a shake Vik, seriously.

I remember throwing out thalimide as an example, I don't know if that was the drug that was used or something similar OR a drug that has a similar effect as thalimide. We are all just speculating here, none of us knows what is really going on, so let's all stop pretending that we do. Besides, were all just speculating that the drug thalimude was used. From my understanding it was a drug similar to thalimide.

@ Viking;

Sorry, accidentally hit the "submit" button before I was done and could do a final proof read.

Anyhow, all I'm trying to say is, this story has gone from appearing on Politics to appearing on HirTV and who's to say that there may not be any truth to all of it.

As for the shaking of the baby suggestion, you shocked me there. Thats even low for you.

@ justasking

I suggest you do on line research about the job spec of a criminologist.Start with Raffaele Garofalo who in the late 1800's coined the phrase.

Re: "A Prosecutor on the other hand, prosecutes people of crimes. It is the job of a prosecutor to "make a case" with what he's got, NOT to advise if a case is winnable or not."

Oh, really?

Prosecutors don't use phrases like "winnable" - Law Enforcement gathers evidence- Prosecution decides if there is sufficient evidence to take the evidence to trial in the hope of getting a conviction.

Re your comment to Viking : "As for the shaking of the baby suggestion, you shocked me there. Thats even low for you." Low? You didn't understand what he wrote. BTW, have you heard of shaking baby syndrome known as SBS ?

So how many years have you worked within the Justice system with criminals including child abusers, lawyers, judges, social workers, prosecutors, children's aid workers, probation officers etc etc?

@ Olga;
Unlike you, I know exactly what criminologists do, for I've worked with enough of them to know. So you keep your "online research". You will find people with criminology degrees working for Legal Aid, Large corporations ie: Oil companies, in their fraud department to monitor fraud within the company etc. I know lots of criminologists that have infact become Detectives.
I bet Law and Order is your favourite show on TV isn't it? Prosecutors not saying the case is winnable or not...are you kidding me? Hell, half the time they try to "plead it out" before it even gets to court! I know several Crown Prosecutors and Legal Aide Lawyers, with case loads that are so heavy, these men and women do the best that they can, with what they have and within the time frame they are alotted. Does that mean some cases get more attention than others, probably. Callous though it maybe, thats reality.
How many years have I worked within the Justice system? Not within it directly; but, with everyone of those careers that you mentioned and then some.
Now, lets get to the shaking baby part. Have I heard of it? Hmmm, yeah. Did you know, that in some cases of "Shaken' babies" the police will actually wait 1 year, just incase the baby dies from the injuries inflicted upon them? How much do you really want me to share with you the cases that I have been exposed too? You know,how I know,that you know shit about this? By way you reacted. How you tried to explain what Viking "meant".

@ Olga con't:

I doubt that you have ever "seen" a baby that has been abused in this way, let alone "known" anybody in this situation. These tiny little people, that in a flash, had their destiny irrevocably changed. Now, really think about that and all that has been taken from them.

No, if you really were, this caring, nuturing, compassionate individual, that you want everybody here to think you are...you would have stomped all over Vikings head and then some.

OK,
I found the link to Mark's program:
-
http://www.hirtv.hu/?tPath=/view/videoview&videoview_id=9645
-
So, now every one can see for themselves how Fidesz want to present this before the election.

Info on the medication mentioned in the HirTV-program can be found here:
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clonazepam
-
Clonazepam is a benzodiazepine derivative with anticonvulsant, muscle relaxant, and anxiolytic properties
It is marketed by Roche under the trade-names Klonopin in the United States, and Ravotril in Chile
Other names like Rivotril or Rivatril are known throughout the large majority of the rest of the world
-
Pregnancy
There is some medical evidence of various malformations, e.g., cardiac or facial deformations, when used in early pregnancy, however the data is not conclusive
The data are also inconclusive on whether benzodiazepines such as clonazepam cause developmental deficits or decreases in IQ in the developing fetus when taken by the mother during pregnancy
Clonazepam when used late in pregnancy may result in the development of a severe benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome in the neonate. Withdrawal symptoms from benzodiazepines in the neonate may include hypotonia, apnoeic spells, cyanosis and impaired metabolic responses to cold stress
-
So, as usual, there is no guarantee to give birth defects, even as with a number of medications, it is not recommended during pregnancy.

@justasking
What irritates about these people is that all (with the exception of Olga) claim to be living in Hungary and making judgment about Hungarians and Hungarian politics without being able to read a simple article in Hungarian or cannot find a HirTV video program without someone holding their hands. If they are that ignorant, why do they think anyone cares what they think?
They had the discussion on HirTV about expectant gypsy mothers who damage their babies to get more aid. Sophist should have been able to find the video without my help but I did some looking and posted what I found. Viking even posted the HirTV article describing the “Célpont” program:
http://www.hirtv.hu/belfold?article_id=304884
All they had to do is look for it since the article talks about it.
These people are not only dishonest but also very arrogant and stupid. How is that they do not bother to learn the language of a country they call home and where they presume to tell the Hungarians what is right and wrong for them? I cannot get over their stupidity. They do not have to write flawless Hungarian, very few Hungarians do just as very few Americans, Swedish, Germans, French and others are able to write flawless in their own language.
Hungarian students who ended up in America could not write flawless or even acceptable English at first but they learned enough to excel at American universities within a year. Why are these people not learning some basic Hungarian speaking and reading? Are they so inferior to Hungarians they try to constantly instruct how to live in their own country?
The article proves the existence of the program and if after years of living in Hungary they did not learn to read enough Hungarian to find the program or watch HirTV, they should get out or at least stop making asses of themselves.
Do you see why I do not bother with these people’s questions?

@ Viking;

That is so fantastic, you found the video. Now, do you want a hero biscuit?

@ Mark;

Sorry to burst your bubble; but, it has nothing to do with how much of the Hungarian language "these people" (Viking, Wolfi, Olga and at times Sophist) talk/read/understand and comprehend and all to do with their egos. You have a group of people that are so smart, that they are stupid. They know everything and nothing. Just ask them.

I'll write more later once I have viewed this "elusive" video. Until than, hold down the fort and try not to get too preachy.

Cheers;

Zsuzsa

Justasking,

"and at times Sophist"

thanks for that partial recognition of my non-partizanship, you've added to my Friday feeling; but which times are those?

Mark,

"This is what I meant by ignorant and only because I did not want to call you stupid"

I know you're a big boy now, and know quite a few long words. "Ignorant" is much more grown-up than "stupid". But do you know what a real grown-up would do? A real grown-up would criticize my ideas rather than criticize me. Do you think you can do that for me next time, Marky? Yes? Thank-you.

Viking,

thanks for the link.

@Viking: I say well done for finding the video. Cleaning up after these infants is never pleasant.

@Mark: You do understand that video don't you? In it the head of the medical staff makes it clear that he does not know of any instance where Roma or anyone else has shown any signs of deliberately damaging their baby's health. One person on the street is eventually found to say that she heard of someone (so hearsay) doing this. At the very same time even the reporter makes it perfectly clear that according to national statistics the number of babies born with abnormalities or handicapped in the same as the national average, so there is no proof or basis for such stories and assertions.

Pathetic.

Mark. It is essential for foreigners like myself to learn Hungarian if we intend to stay here on a long-term basis.
I have to say that Hungarian is a difficult
language and requires a lot of dedication to get to grips with it.. vár, várni, várunk, vársz, etc.
Latin-based grammar? Also an agglutinative language depending heavily on suffixes and prefixes for meaning/s.
I enjoy life here in Hungary and have made many friends.
It amazes me how little is actually discussed on this site about the "real" Hungary and the problems it faces.
People are thoroughly fed up of hearing the same old bells ringing about, holocaust denial, WW1,WW11, Trianon etc etc.
A general election awaits us, and I believe we should start getting down to brass tacks and discussing what Hungary needs in terms of reform, fighting corruption, encouraging investment, dealing with transport and education problems, job creation schemes etc.
A true Hungarian I feel sure would agree with these sentiments?
"folyékonyan beszél magyarul".

@ Viking;
That is so fantastic, you found the video. Now, do you want a hero biscuit?
justasking at January 15, 2010 8:44 AM
----
Only if you spank Mark for refusing to publish it first, because we all know why he did not do it.
Molnar is not supported by Fidesz any more and this program was part of their 'damage control', by
* letting Molnar speak openly (shows most people he is clearly not 'normal')
* using another Fidesz local rep, who also is the responsible doctor for these things, speak about Molnar and refute Molnar's claim
* quote a number of MSZP-politicians that have done similar stupid remarks as Molnar
* let people repeat hearsay, no one claimed they did it themselves, no one with a damaged baby was shown
* repeat the official stats, that there is no local discrepancy in this area on children with birth defects
-
Why do you think Mark did not want us to find the video?
Try, Molnar does not come out in a good light?

@Vandorlo
You can dispute what you saw in the video and even argue about as you do. I believe that you are wrong and the text portion about the programs proves me right. If you do not believe the people on the video or the gypsy representative who confirm that expectant gypsy mothers damage their babies for more welfare aid is what debating is all about.
The reason I got disgusted with these people who are too ignorant to follow the lead I found for them is that they started mouthing off that there was no such video of the program. At least, other than the truly hopeless idiots, no one questions the existence of the video

Hearsay and hearsay and hearsay.
The responsible doctor refutes the claims.
The stats shows no discrepancy.
So *where* are these damaged children.
They got vaporized?
-
From the original article:
The mayor, who is a representative of main opposition party Fidesz, said he would turn to the metropolitan court to appeal against the authority's decision.
But he said that for the time being he would not issue an official statement to the police revealing which women were harming themselves.
-
So, how did it go for Molnar's appeal?
And so far no one has reported any one for harming any one?
Molnar has of course a God Given Right to not report 'any gypsys'.
We other have a *legal obligation* to report to the nearest Police when we are aware of a crime, and that as soon as possible.
'Hungarian Nationalists' are obviously above both the Legal and Moral Laws that guide the rest of us.

Mark,

"I believe that you are wrong and the text portion about the programs proves me right"

Why do you believe Van. is wrong? How does the text portion prove you right? Argue your case, give your reasons.

Look how Viking cleverly summarises his evidence:

"The responsible doctor refutes the claims.
The stats shows no discrepancy.
So *where* are these damaged children.
They got vaporized?"

Can you do the same?

wow...so much to read and comment on.
The best way I can think of to describe criminology is as a specific discipline within sociology. Criminologists are not lawyers but social scientists. They work as social researchers focusing on crime related issues. I would think of it as unusual that a criminologist would take up detective work as it is a bit too specific, however, I'm not saying it is impossible because like most academic disciplines, competition for jobs is fierce. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find criminologists working in some big companies such as developers, NGOs, supermarkets etc, and even local governments. I know this, because I have done work in this capacity myself.
As to abuse of babies for benefits.I wouldn't be surprised if it does happen, though I don't have direct proof of it happening to the unborn.It's one of those things that happens particularly in disadvantaged groups all over the world.A related example is blinding of young children to make them more convincing as beggars.
Finally, I think that if one is going to make a claim, particularly a controversial one, the onus is on them to back it up.I don't see anything disrespectful about asking for sources as I would feel an obligation to either provide evidence or a justification/argument.For me, getting cranky at people who ask for sources raises questions of credibility.

Kenneth "born of fire" - you're waffling again mate!
And V. Why keep arguing with Mark. He is just one person.
Address your remarks, or state your case, to all of us. And have done with it.
I know you see Mark as the right-wing "nasty" and try to annihilate him with your never-ending contemptuous remarks.
But, at the end of the day- who just gives a flying fuck what you think or say. I don't care about your politics. You are just one conceited dumb-ass shit that continually blocks the airwaves with conceited and incredulous crap.

@Cináed: The lower socio-economic group members don't have to purposefully harm their children, their material circumstances does the work for them. There are two important things to remember:
1. Claims were made and a promise was given to provide proof of such based on objective evidence and data. None of this evidence and data has been forthcoming. What is more, the (former) best friend of the person who made these claims is head of the local medical services and says there is categorically no evidence for such claims based on his lifelong experience.
2. The person that the journalist found on the street that had heard that a person can harm their children if they took 'vitalin' (I didn'T hear the name of the medcine and I'm not going to what the video again unless I have to) or whatever the name of the medicine was. The effects of this medicine are, according to the toxicologist interviewed, to potentially deprive a child of oxygen "as does smoking, through carbon monoxide poisoning". Now this seem to me to be the point. Smoking is a much more prevalent and dangerous toxin that is legal, the poorer you are the more you consume, Roma are poor, so they smoke more...
Suggestion: ban smoking and then the state wouldn't have to wipe up after everyone's appalling consumption patterns.

One can watch HirTV delayed or live. For 2 hours of live program, one needs to send an SMS. Delayed program is free anywhere in the world. Those living in Hungary and have cable can watch HirTV at home. Finding a link to one of these programs is no easy task. I used Internet search to find a mention of the program and Viking found a text summary of it. The video exists. I hope nobody is stupid enough to question that. The question is, who is responsible for doing the search to find the video. I already saw it so it is not important to me. If Sophist wants to find it, there is already enough help to finish the rest of the search. If Sophist is not able to do that…
The credibility of those asking for information without taking the trouble to finish the search is the issue. The other problem I have is that after finding the video, some of these yoyos demand proof of what the people on the video said. I believe that what they said is true but I do not care if someone else has a different opinion. This is no “holocaust” doctrine, more sacred than anything in human history is, and all the doubters deserving of horrible death, according to some. Believe what they wish. It makes no difference to me.

@TDK: Fuck off and stop directing the traffic.

@ Cinaed and justasking

Cinaed - I think you have just become "the enemy." Everything you wrote starting with criminology and the rest of your posting is absolutely correct.

justasking -I am not going to get into a pissing contest. “Pleading out?” – is that the same as
plea bargaining? - Don’t know about your province but there is no such thing in Ontario as a “Legal Aid Lawyer” but lawyers who accept Legal Aid Certificates.

If the Prosecutors “plead them out half the time” or whatever you mean, it means the prosecutor accepts a lesser sentence because they are not certain of a conviction of the more serious charge.

I have met children who were born with both Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and who were disabled from SBS. Plus a host of other disabilities including teenagers who were once the “thalidomide babies”

About Viking’s comment – he meant that if the Roma women wanted to harm their babies, there were easier ways to harm them instead of the alleged poisoning. That would be a fact – stating facts are not “low” making up stories is.

Does it bother you that no action has been taken against these women and no disabled children have been produced as evidence? Does it make you perhaps doubt the story?

demand proof of what the people on the video said. I believe that what they said is true
Mark at January 15, 2010 2:28 PM
---
Yes, here is the kernel of the problem.
There are no 'proofs' that can be evaluated.
There are just 'what people say'.
And what do they say:
- That they believe Roma women hurt their unborn children
-
That is it.
You believe what you want to believe.
Facts are too complicated to be bothered with.
And these people, mostly elected politicians, both from Fidesz and MSZP, in this HirTV program are there to represent these people.
-
Well actually not, because most of the politicians are not representing the Roma women that are accused of this, so who has first-hand experience?
Molnar for himself never accused Roma women in *his* village, just from the surrounding villages.
An excellent example of an Hungarian Politician.
And Jobbik just Loves him.

Something I just remembered:

Years ago I wanted to watch Hungarian news and asked my wife to switch to HirTV - and she said: NO!

And she told me: Either we watch M1 or RTL or whatever, but not HirTV = OrbanTV, so you might compare this with US FoxTV or FauxTV as it is called by many, not something that you would relie on for unbiased reporting ...

In Germany we have a saying:

This kind of TV is for üeopöe who are to stupid to read the BILD (Blick or Bors in Hungary).

@ Olga;

You don't have lawyers in Ontario that serve people that can not afford lawyers?

In the West, they are called Legal Aide Lawyers and are paid by the Province, hence the title "Legal Aide". Get it, lawyers that offer legal aide to individuals with little to no resources. Never heard of a legal aid certificate, although it obviously exists in your Province.

"Pleading out/plea bargining-same difference, kinds sorta, same result. Either the the case does not go to trial (because it was settled before hand) or during trial where the parties feel that the case is not going their way. Point, another case closed onto the next one, preferably in record time.

About you trying to justify Vikings comments, by saying there are easier ways.
Well, lets see. Taking a pill vs having somebody hit my stomach with a baseball bat. Taking pill vs bat, think, think, think. I will go with pill. For that would be way less painful for me, obviously I do not give a shit about my child.
Also, taking a pill, would harm the baby before it was born, hard to prove, get benefits. AS OPPOSED TO giving birth to a healthy baby, shaking the shit out of it, getting charged with child abuse= no benefits and now jail time.

Hmmm, you and Viking really thought that one through right?

giving birth to a healthy baby, shaking the shit out of it, getting charged with child abuse= no benefits and now jail time
justasking at January 15, 2010 4:39 PM
----
justasking, this is North-East Hungary.
Do you really think any hospital and police will work with Shaking Baby Syndrome?
Do you do that a lot with your alcoholic Indians?
Just the medical investigation takes too long time and cost too much.
You seem to believe people are equally treated?
-
North-East Hungary has gone through a demographic shift the last 50 years where the Roma population has increased much and non-Roma has moved away. This process has accelerated the last 20 years when much of the old heavy Soviet Industry was closed and there has been a high constant unemployment among non-Roma also.
This is the background that much happening related to Roma and Jobbik is happening in that corner of Hungary.
-
But still no stats that hints that number of disabled children are bigger in that corner of Hungary than in the rest, so maybe it is just that type of story like the 'rat meat in the pizza' when the pizza came to Sweden in the 60s.
I still remember that people refused to visit pizzerias, then they were totally convinced that they would be forced to eat rat meat.

@justasking

Not going to bore people to tears - so I am done. Well , almost - All this Legal Aid talk makes me want to know how the Hungarian system works.

In the US - if you have no money, you have a court appointed lawyer.

In Ontario, if you are charged with a crime (I think it has to be a crime that can lead to jail time. Haven't brushed up on the latest rules) Anyway, person applies for a Legal Aid Certificate - has to meet income standards - as in having no money to pay for a lawyer. If the person owns a home, Legal Aid puts a lean on it for the legal fees. Once the certificate is issued, the person can take it to any criminal defense lawyer and ask to be represented by that person - lawyer can refuse Legal Aid - they get paid a set fee and not every lawyer wants to work for the amount paid by Legal Aid. Right now Ontario's lawyers who do accept Legal Aid are "on strike" for some serious crimes. Here is the website if you are interested. ( I am sure no one else will be) Is your province different?
http://www.themarknews.com/articles/531-lawyers-on-strike

Back to Hungary - who pays for defense lawyers if a person cannot afford a lawyer? Are they court appointed like in the USA or will the government pay for the lawyer and the person charged can choose his/her own lawyer provided the lawyer is willing to act on the accused's behalf?

@ Vindaloo. I have told you many times before that you do not rule the roost here. No matter how much Erik loves you.
You are a pontificating peacock that chooses to post using an "affected" and "useless" pseudonym.
We know when we are hitting the target when you use sentences like this:" @TDK: Fuck off and stop directing the traffic."
I believe my original remarks were addressed to
Viking? (But you'll do instead!)
Go lick the arse of your convict friend George Soros. You useless piece of horse manure.
Pick a peck of pickled pepercorn, Pikey.

Justasking,

"I do not give a shit about my child."

Well, this is the crux of the issue isn't it. You've got a useful habit of cutting through the crap. This is really where all the emotion in this debate comes from: you're assuming gypsy women don't give a shit about their children.

I'm open minded about the use of drugs to poison foetuses in Eledény. I mean it's not as if its logically impossible that parents harm their children: female circumcision in Saharan Africa, castration in the Byzantine empire, mutilation of children for begging in India and China. But in these cases, the parents genuinely believe the practice is in the child's long term interests - securing a husband, a job in royal service, improved income.

It was good that Van. brought up the issue of smoking, because my wife has directly confronted a smoking gypsy mother: she was told that the baby would have a lower birth weight and that would make the delivery safer for her and for her baby. Parents have expectations about their children's lives, and what their best interests would be - like my Hungarian mother-in-law's sincere believe that a childhood diet rich in fat and sugar is healthy. I don't agree with any of the examples I have cited, but my point is even if you can show that parents have deliberately harmed their children, you haven't shown that they "don't give a shit about their children". Unfortunately, they can simply be misguided.

I don't know about now in the age of digital media, but TDK used to be one of the best brands for blank cassettes. ...Great for reproducing other people's original work, but on their own, just the gentle hiss of low level white noise.

Good Stuff TDK, about time someone else speak out
about these Neo liberal minded rat bags..

Sophist: I agree with you re Van's mentioning smoking. There are many more ways to harm an unborn baby than taking medications or resorting to impact injuries. Poor nutrition, poor lifestyle, and so on...
I certainly don't question that people make bad choices because of ignorance or being misguided. On the issue of whether or not Roma women in particular are taking direct focused action with the intent of harming an unborn child, I admit that I don't have direct evidence, but would not be surprised if it does happen.To me, however, this does not say anything of Roma people just because they happen to be Roma...If social roles were inverted, you would find Roma making comments about Magyar women hurting unborn children for money.
I also wanted to amend my earlier post re: criminologists are not lawyers...that's not to say that one could not be both. My former boss studied law first, and although never having practiced as a lawyer, but instead moved into criminology, still holds the necessary qualifications to do so.

According to lawyers of the Foundation for Legal
Defence of Hungarians Rights, the court threw out
two recent cases against the New Hungarian Guard,
citing lack of evidence.

The court found unlawful the police action against
the New Hungarian Guard that took place in the
Tihanyi pub and at the Horthy memorial
celebration, on Béla Bartók boulevard.

On November 5, 2009, the New Hungarian Guard had a
recruiting session in the Tihanyi pub, in Csepel
that police broke up arresting some members of the
Guard, amongst them Robert Kiss the captain of the
New Hungarian Guard.

During the Horthy memorial celebration, on
November 22, in the same year, police prevented
the New Hungarian Guard to join the celebration in
a peaceful manner and arrested many member of the
Guards.

According to the court decision, in both cases,
police acted unlawfully; the court has pointed out
that the charges against members of the New
Hungarian Guard are lacking evidence.

According to the lawyers of the Foundation for
Legal Defence of Hungarians Rights, one of the
main legal consequences of the decision is the
court assessment according to which the New
Hungarian Guard is not the same entity as the
banned Hungarian Guard, as the regime would like
us to believe.

(Nemzeti Jogvédő Szolgálat - barikád.hu –
hungarianambiace.com)

I believe my original remarks were addressed to
Viking?
TDK at January 15, 2010 5:23 PM
---
OK, I was obviously not the only one that misunderstood this fabulous address:
--
And V.
TDK at January 15, 2010 2:17 PM
--
I think I keep my right to voice my opinion in whatever question I want.
I have problem if you do the same, I just think you should try to contribute to the debate instead not just complain about it.

Oh...and to add. (Oh, TDK please don't hurt me)
I think it's interesting that in Hungary, it is the Magyar people who look down on the Roma for being backward and well, 'less developed', while in more affluent countries in the region, Magyar are referred to as being backward and 'less developed', and then again in still other parts of the world, Europeans in general are seen as quaint, peculiar, as having lots of nice stories, but still, well...less developed, oh and a little bit backward, who in turn regard those who would think such things as being uncultured and therefore, well...impetuous, immature international upstarts, who in other words are, well...'undeveloped'. ...so really, it's all relative, and depends on what you compare yourself to.
Basically, people are people everywhere, and as much as we might argue otherwise would probably do the same or similar things if we were in the same or similar situations.The question then becomes, how do we solve the problems while causing minimum pain to all concerned?

Hi Law,
Thank you for the wonderful news! This disgusting against the Magyar Garda has to stop!
The Garda members who were unlawfully arrested should seek compensation for false arrest. The judgment should be paid by the Communist MSZP/SZDSZ government.

Josué Estebanez

The case of Josué Estebanez shows that the Spanish
situation is quite similar, when it comes to
dealing with national issues, as that of Hungary.

The Spanish patriot Josué Estebanez was picked on
by a mob of fifty made up by communists, liberals
and other political extremists, because they
didn't like his clothing. They followed him to the
Madrid metro's Legapzi station wanting to lynch
him. Against this overwhelming force, Josué had no
other choice but pick up the glove and fight for
his life.

In the lawful act of self defence, one person died
and others suffered serious injuries; but Josué
survived the attack. (Note: As the video shows
these extremists are brave only when they fifty
times outnumber the opponent, but the cowards shy
away from the one on one fight. Gypsies are
behaving the same way; they are brave when
outnumber their victims, most of the time, the
weak and the defenceless).

Josué Estebanez was a professional soldier and 24
years old when the attack happened. The Spanish
court sentenced him for 26 years prison term
without chance of parole, because he was also
found guilty of committing a hate crime.
http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2010/01/help-
spanish-political-prisoners.html

Hi Mark
Big day tomorrow :) Pitty you can't attend the
Jobbiks' launch.. I will be attending..

And Mark is surprised why other people regard him as a Jobbik stooge...

About that murder in Spain:
From another internet site (in German)
The guy who was killed was 16 years old!
Another was badly hurt.

The murderer is a member of a Nazi party ...

So who is to be believed ?

Law's links and sources are the usual: stormfront and other Nazi sites ...

There is much more on the internet. Just look at one of the sites, where solidarity with the murderer is expressed:

http://www.jva-report.national-socialism.org/solidaritaetshemd_josue.htm

Does that look familiar ?

Like I wrote before most of Law's and Hungarianambience's links are Nazi site. So what does that say about him ?

PS If I wern't a GERMAN, I'd say who cares, but I don't want these things to happen again ...

Wehret den Anfängen!

You're a coward wolfi!! supporting gangs who
outnumbered him 50 to 1 , you gutless German
bastard, Josué fought for his life against the Neo
Liberal gangs..

Cin.

"To me, however, this does not say anything of Roma people just because they happen to be Roma...

I think you know my views well enough to know there was no racist intent here

"If social roles were inverted, you would find Roma making comments about Magyar women hurting unborn children for money"

I don't think you need to invert roles here, no one has claimed that gypsies are without prejudices. This comes from David Mitchell's novel Black Swan Green; a 13 year old English boy has strayed into a gypsy camp-

"'What gets my goat about gorgios is how they call us dirty when they have toilets in the same room they wash in! And all use the same spoons and cups and bath water and don't throw their rubbish to the wind an' rain to sort out natural, no, they keep their muck to go rotten in boxes!' She shuddered.'Inside their houses'.
'Sleepin' with their pets an 'all.' Clem Ostler poked the fire. 'Dogs are mucky enough, but cats. Fleas, dirt, fur, all in the same bed..." (page 305)

As for the authenticity of this I can only guess. Mitchell goes on to write the most opaque sentence of the whole novel:

"I'd been thinking how gypsies wanted the rest of us to be gross, so the grossness of what they're not acts as a stencil for what they are.

'Gypsies' and 'villagers' [the rest of us] are inverted in same sentence on page 288. What do you make of it?

Here is the Spanish original site from where Law's Spanish Fascists friends made a YouTube-video with music
-
http://www.elpais.com/videos/espana/Huida/grabacion/muerte/video/largo/elpepunac/20090510elpepunac_2/Ves/
-
This is nothing at all as Law describes it and it is available for every one to watch the 2 people Josué Estébanez stabs
The timing looks like this:
Josué Estébanez is on the metro-train coming in to the station
As soon as Josué Estébanez sees a crowd on the station, he prepares himself for war
* 00:17: Josué Estébanez takes out his knife
* 00:30: You can see the knife in his right hand
* 00:35: Josué Estébanez has taken an offensive position at the door
The people coming aboard does not know him, but he starts to abuse people who enter the train
Look at his head and body language
He is challenging the people boarding
* 00:53: Josué Estébanez stabs victim1 in the heart, one precise stab
He knows what he is doing
He has mentally prepared himself for this a long time
This was never self-defence in any legal meaning
This was murder, the victim was just the random part
* 01:35 Josué Estébanez makes a Nazi-salute allegedly hurling abuse at the dead kid on the station
* 03:00 Josué Estébanez stabs victim2 in a situation which is messy, but people are getting pissed on him
-
At no time tried Josué Estébanez 24 years avoid confrontation, he sought it
16 year old Carlos Palomino paid with his life for answering back on Josué Estébanez provocations
Is this what Law wants?

Thanks, Viking, but by now it should be clear that Law is a Naziand you can't reason with those.

Hungarianambience also looks more and more like a Nazi site with the false stories they present - very similar to Nazi sites in Germany and other countries.

I think it's no use argueing with these people - I just wonder whether the others on this site are really the same type ...

the defendant of the private prosecution: Erlantz
Ibarrondo, a leftist antifascist militant. He is the
lawyer that defence 25 antifascist accused of
violent riots, of 7 antifascist accused of
assaulting a police station, of the leftist
hoolligan of Marsella arrested in a Spanish stadium,
and he was also the 51th candidate in the list of
the party “Iniciativa Internacionalista”
(Internationalist Initiative) for the last European
elections, a party that is supported by the ETA
terrorists and by all the background that support
the vasque separatists and the terrorists.

@Law:

From which Nazi site did you cut & paste this crap ?

Law,
Posting irrelevant material on Spanish laywers will not help your case.
Why must the 24 year old soldier Josué Estébanez kill 16 year old Carlos Palomino?
Just because Carlos answered back on Josué's verbal provocations?
Is that how we will see the 'New Hungarian Guard' in the future?
Is that the 'New'?
Without any real reason kill a 16 year old boy?
It is in the surveillance-video, which is of very good quality.
I think that even the people who normally agree with you want to know what you think about this.
Before you have always advocated non-violence, now you claim that a deliberate murder is OK.
What happened today?

Mr Assumption the train was full of Extreme Left
wing supporters provoking Josué, the video shows how
many Lefties were out to make trouble ETA terrorists
who have killed hundreds of innocent people and he
was surrounded by them.
Were you there? Did you see and hear the exact
conversation? No fucking way!! you lying fuck Lapp
Lapp!!

Daniel Wretström, murdered by immigrants and reds
aged 16. Seven of the people involved in the
attack were accused, one of which was convicted of
manslaughter and sentenced to psychiatric care.
Three of the attackers were sentenced to forty
hours of community service and contact with social
services. Two others were ordered to pay 1800
Swedish crowns (about 200 Euros) in fines, and the
last one was released on parole and ordered to pay
1800 crowns in fines.

Those who have experienced what it is like to be
attacked by members of AFA or the thugs of the Far
Left know that they are evil, sadistic cowards who
are more then prepared to attack in a mob any
nationalist they will see.

I have seen friends who I went with to various
demonstrations beaten to a pulp by the AFA thugs,
who are usually armed with weapons such as knives,
screwdrivers and clubs.

These AFA thugs are the same sort of thugs in
Europe, yet the European AFA mobs are a hundred
times more violent than the British version.

In nations such as Germany and Spain you will be
killed by them if they catch you alone.

When I was a lot younger I once got chased through
London on the tube by a mob of reds, and luckily
got away.

I knew though that these guys, mainly middle aged
men, would have seriously hurt me if they caught
me.

This is why I support Josue Estebanez de la Hija
in his fight for justice.

He was all alone on the tube on his way to a
nationalist meeting when a mob of 50 AFA thugs,
who as the video will show were armed with knuckle
dusters and tear gas grenades to use against the
nationalist meeting, boarded the tube train he was
on.He wasnt looking for trouble – they were, and
they got it.You can see Josue looking through the
window and realising that he was cornered.
This is when he drew his army knife that he
carried with him.
He didnt have the knife in his hand BEFORE the mob
started to get ready to board the tube train he
was on, he only drew the knife when he realised
that he was cornered and that the mob had seen him
through the glass windows of the tube carriage and
were intending to enter his carriage.
He knew that his life was now in real danger from
this armed mob.
He assumed they were armed, and he was right.
The video footage reveals they were carrying
weapons and the testimony of a security guard at
the scene states he saw the mob also carrying
knives.
These were armed Red terrorists, and he was a lone
nationalist.
On the video you can see the thugs board the tube
train, laughing and looking at him as they
realised they had trapped what they thought was a
’skinhead’ on the tube all alone – and they were
laughing at how easy it was going to be to attack
him.
cont

Then a couple of them notice that he is carrying a
knife and they move away.
Why did they move away – because all of a sudden
they realised that this peice of dead meat that
they thought they could attack and destroy easily
was able to defend itself.
Then one of the mob gets on the train and starts
to question him.
This is always how such events begin.
Usually they begin with the ‘Why are you wearing
that top for. What are ya some kind of fucking
Nazi or what you cunt’, and then usually from
behind someone punches you in the face or the back
of the neck, you fall to the ground and the
kicking begins, or you are headbutted and then the
whole mob jump on you and the kicking begins.
The aim of the thug in the video who starts
engaging him with questions, was so that other
thugs could get behind him and launch an attack
from behind or he was about to headbutt him and
then the other thugs would jump in.
He didnt know though that Josue was carrying his
army knife and that the other thugs had backed
away once they had seen he was armed for self
defence reasons.
Once Josue realised that he was trapped, he
defended himself.
He knew he was boxed in, so he lashed out.
I fully support what he did.
cont

The old saying, ‘Better judged by 12 than carried
by 6′ is a maxim I endorse in such situations.
When you know you are trapped and that you are
going to be attacked, then the best form of
defence is attack.
Go for the biggest and the mouthiest as hard as
possible, then the rest of the pups usually run
off yelping when the top dog is taken down.
The rest of the video reveals how gutless the
thugs were.
Even though there were over 50 of the AFA thugs
they still tried time after time to attack Josue,
and time after time he held his own against them
all.
That is one brave kid.
Eventually the mob trapped him and beat him almost
to death. Luckily he survived, but one of the
thugs didnt.
A man died which is always a tragedy, yet if he
had not chose that day to join with a mob of 50
thugs to hunt down and attack nationalists who
simply wanted to attend a meeting then he would
still be alive today.
He, unlike Josue, went looking for trouble.
He, unlike Josue, came out of the situation worse
off.
On any other day anywhere in Europe, it would have
been a dead nationalist on the floor.
This kid held his own and survived.
If the thugs had not been hunting down people to
attack that day then their friend would still be
alive.
Those that go looking for trouble, should not
whine when they get it.
If you set out to hunt down and attack people,
then you should expect people to defend
themselves.
SELF DEFENCE IS NO OFFENCE.

the train was full of Extreme Left wing supporters provoking Josué
Law at January 15, 2010 9:19 PM
---
Every one can see on the video that Josué has taken out his knife *before any* has gone on the train.
The first people going on the train does not even notice Josué, there is *never ever* more than a handful people 'around' Josué.
When he kills Carlos it had just been speaking and a very small push, or maybe even just that Carlos points his finger on Josué's T-shirt.
Josué could have run out of the train at that moment, instead he killed 16 year old Carlos with a perfect stab in the heart.
-
It is my surprise that given all this video evidence that there exists people that thinks Josué can be innocent
Any normal persons must think that it was a murder, because if you ever saw one, this was the typical one
Seeing Josué the 25 seconds before people starts to come on board the train it is clear for any one that he is not calm, he is preparing himself for violence. If the Democracia Nacional, to whom Josué is claimed to be connected, had denounced him after this deliberate killing, then I would have had understanding for that. Josué does not give you the impression of being especially balanced
-
Democracia Nacional (Spanish for National Democracy) is a far right political party in Spain, founded in 1995
In the 2008 Spanish general election, they got 12,588 votes, amounting to 0.05% of the vote
Given this fact and Ricsi's answer in another thread it is clear this is Jobbik.

@Alfonso: Not a man was killed - a boy of 16 years.

Your postings are obviously copied from someplace - another "Nationalist Socialist" site ?

Would you tell us where you got that propaganda (I can't call it information because obviously it is not) ?

This murderer has been sentenced by a regular court in Spain - a lot of people were there at the proceedings and watched ...

@ Viking;
Do I really think that "any hospital and police will work with SBS-I should bloody well hope so since that is their job. As for our "alcoholic indians", their babies are treated the same as a "non-alcoholic indians", which is then treated the same as a "white persons" baby. I do not know if this is a Province to Province thing; but, here, where I live, every baby gets tested for alcohol and drugs within hours of the being born. God help you, if either is found in the childs system, for just like that, the child it taken from you and given over to Child Services.

According to you, nobody is interested in gathering/conducting, information on this possible abuse for it costs too much and takes too long to investigate. Then you go onto say that "no stats that hints that the number of disabled children higher in that part of Hungary" So what stats were you supposedly quoting pray tell? The non existing ones? And you bitch about Mark not making up shit!

@ Olga;

Here, you actually call Legal Aide (their in the yellow pages under "Legal Aide") you tell them that you need a Lawyer for what ever reason (does not have to be just criminal cases)they confirm you income level, then provide you with 3 Lawyer names. You call which ever one and they give you whatever assistance you need. As for how Hungary goes about with their legal "ins and outs"-not a clue.

@ Sophist;
When I said "and at times Sophist", this is one of them. So I started "cutting through your crap

Your perspective is blurred by Radical Leftest goggles, he new he was cornered and Alfonso has done
a remarkable job explaining the incident of SELF defense.

Alfonso is one of Law's (Huncillin) aliases for this Spanish thing.
Just look at the video.
The judges did that and sentenced the killer to 19 years for the murder of the 16 year old Carlos and 7 years for the non-fatal stabbing of the 2nd victim, which can be seen about 3 minutes into the video.
-
Alonso's defence is a non-legal such and is written on the international support-page for the killer, but I suppose pasting a link there would have taken away the 'dramatic' effect it was to create.
The defence is also built on thinking that did not materialize.
These 'over 50 of the AFA thugs' never ever attack the killer as a group. Individuals did that after that 16 year old Carlos had been killed *and* the killer had made the Nazi-salute (1:35) towards the people outside the train.
The other people are *outside* the train.
No one was attacking the killer, more than verbal, but as can be seen on the video the killer is very aggressive.
And those last five words summaries the situation
-
Maybe the killer was aggressive because he was afraid, or because he wanted to kill some one
I do not know, question is who knows?
In the end it is not important, a killer is still a killer
And Jobbik supports killers
Now we know what is awaiting the rest of Hungary and not only the Roma, random killing by 'Nationalists'

@ Sophist cont;

and realized that you were pulling a Viking. Just filling in the blanks. If you go back and reread what I wrote, I wrote it as if I were the Mother contemplating harming my child. I do not believe ANY WOMAN, who would consider harming her child, gives a shit about them. Misguided??? What, are you saying the Roma women are too stupid to understand right from wrong? Try all you want, you will never convince me that harming a child, for what ever reason, can be justified.

Do I believe that desperate people will do desperate things, yes. Do I believe that there are evil people that would stop at nothing, even harming children, to get a desired result, yes. Does this whole conversation make me ill, yes. But too say that parents, who deliberately harm their children, still "give a shit about them", sorry, I do not understand your logic. I too, try not too judge, weight in circumstances, environment etc...but even that is a stretch.

Justasking,

"When I said "and at times Sophist", this is one of them. So I started "cutting through your crap"

Okay, so why is it one of those times? What was crap?

@ Sophist;

go back and read part 2, I was slow in hitting the "submit" button and the comments got seperated.

@ Law;
Hi!

Viking supports Israel killers that kill every day
thousands of Innocent Palestinian families!! You are
not speaking out about these Israel killers
Murderers only of a young man defending himself..
Viking you're a lying piece of Neo liberal shit!

every baby gets tested for alcohol and drugs within hours of the being born. God help you, if either is found in the childs system, for just like that, the child it taken from you and given over to Child Services
justasking at January 15, 2010 9:52 PM
---
To lose your newborn child to Child Services would then defeat the idea of getting more money from Social Services because you have a defect child, right?
It takes much more in Europe than that to take away children from their parents. It is a long process, often too long.
I actually know one case where the child was removed from the mother (who was totally use-less and mistreated the child). Not until the child was over a year it was given to some relatives after they basically forced the mother, or actually bought the child, to signed some papers on adoption.
This was the Hungarian country-side, not North-East, but also a poor agriculture area. Child Care hardly existed and they were not so interested. The had so many of those cases and no place to put the children. That is the experience I have from Hungary from some people I know. Do not need to be representative though.
But I really think you can forget all those nice standards you have in Canada.
I would more think how it is in crack-ridden areas in US slum-cities.

Hi Zsuzsa
Hope you are well, these guys really twist sentences
to provoke and smear truth, can be so draining at
times.

@ Viking;

Shit happens the world over and Canada is no different.

Viking supports Israel killers that kill every day
thousands of Innocent Palestinian families!! You are not speaking out about these Israel killers
Murderers only of a young man defending himself..
Viking you're a lying piece of Neo liberal shit!
Law at January 15, 2010 10:15 PM
-----
1st) Can I get a hands-up how many wants to see 5-10 posts on my view on the Jewish State of Israel?
-
2nd) Just for the 100th time, just for Law, the short version:
I, in difference from Mark, think that the Jewish State of Israel is illegal. Like Kosovo it should never had been created by the International Community.
This, also in difference to Mark, does not mean I hate Jews or Judaism
-
3rd) Not even I actually think that
"Israel killers that kill every day thousands of Innocent Palestinian families!!"
If they did that *every day* the world would run out of Palestinians rather fast
-
4th) I have several times spoken out against Israel and in favour of the Palestinians, in different to Jobbik who does not want the EU to start negotiate directly with Hamas
Maybe Csurka Istvan/MIEP is correct - Jobbik is just a Mossad creation?
Jobbik's rhetoric is not hurtful to the Israeli Government, EU speaking with Hamas would
-
5th) I sometimes had described my self as Liberal, but on the other hand no one seems to know what a Liberal is, so I do not know.
Neo, no I do not think that, sound so much US and that country reminds me about Mark, so no good vibes there.

@ Viking;

If you are unsure on how to describe yourself, please feel free to take anyone of my suggestions:

Pinhead, asswipe, penis with ears and pond scum, ahh, what the hell...take them all!

Justasking,

"What, are you saying the Roma women are too stupid to understand right from wrong?"

No, I'm saying its sometimes hard to tell right from wrong. Consider vaccinations.

There was a lot a debate recently in Hungary over whether it was 'right' to give the H1N1 vaccination to your kids. I had followed the MMR debate in the UK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_controversy#MMR_vaccine

And although I am not in a position to make an infomed judgement about the risks involved, I thought on balance the kids should have the vaccine. My wife, who had disscussed the issue with her friends and colleagues and of course our pedatrician (though she was paid per jab), thought the same - though this was the minority view. Since we both thought the kids should have the injection there wasn't much more discussion about it between us.

It was only a comment she made afterwards that maybe realise how important the issue had been for her. She remarked that if could do anything in her life again, she would have given our little boy the chickenpox vaccination.

(cont.)

It seems that justasking is nearing Law's level ...

PS: Viking calls himself a Liberal (as I do) - that seems to be a swearword for the Nazis here ...

I learned some Latin at school: Liber = free

Strange that they don't like that word ...

Justasking, (cont.)

Two summers ago chicken pox was going around the school our elder duaghter goes to. Our pedatrician suggested giving our kids a vaccination before they caught it. I didn't think chickenpox was a big deal, in fact I thought it was better to have while young to avoid worse forms of the virus later on in life. The vaccination was only good for a limited time period. So I wasn't interested. In general terms, my wife likes the body to heal itself - she's reluctant to take headache tablets when she needs one - so we agreed no chickenpox vaccine.

The elder daughter duly caught chickenpox and gave it to her brother and sister, our little boy recovered quickly and then seemed to catch it again. The second time it was much worse than the first, he really was covered in pustules and literally he seemed to have spots on spots. Of course he was dreadfully uncomfortable, took a long time to recover and was left with a lot of 'scars' on his torso and his face. Two and a half years later, his sisters don't have a mark on them, but the little boy has slight small discolourations all over his body.

My wife definitely feels she harmed her child by not giving him the chickenpox vaccination, but at the time she thought she was doing the right thing. She took a lot a criticism from her family, friends and colleagues for giving them the N1H1 vaccination. So far so good, but really who knows what was the right thing to do?

My lord the amount sophist viking and wolfi can
waffle is so amazing, the verbal diarrhea just keeps
flowing...

Law,

"the verbal diarrhea just keeps
flowing..."

You don't have kids, do you?

@ Sophist;

How can you possibly compare, knowingly taking a drug to cause harm to a fetus for monitary gain, (even if it is an insignificant amount to some) VS weighting the pros and the cons of whether to immunize your child?

I didn't get the H1N1 shot for my kids because I was afraid of the side effects of the adjuvent. You don't think my Husband and I didn't go back and forth, should we, shouldn't we, questioning ourselves, are we making the right decision or not. You bet we did. Any caring parent, who has their childrens well being at heart, did the same. I can gauantee you that.

If anything, you just showed how a simple question of immunization can send parents into a tailspin. And your trying to explain to me that a Mother KNOWINGLY taking meds to cause deliberate harm to her unborn child, is really infact, having a hard time seperating right from wrong?

Wow, I just don't know what to say to that. Your "logic" eludes me.

The postings showing up from 'Alfonso' earlier this evening was copied in from this link:
-
http://leejohnbarnes.blogspot.com/2009/09/freedom-for-josue-estebanez-de-la-hija.html
-
About Daniel Wretström
During the night between Dec 8-9, 2000 when the murder took place Daniel Wretström had been at a party in Salem. When he was about to leave, he ended up in an exchange with a girl outside the Youth Center, where during the evening had been a disco. It ended with Daniel gave her a slap. However, the situation calmed down and Daniel went along with some others to a bus stop to continue to Tumba. From a distance a group of young people followed after them. At the same time the rumour that a racist had beaten a girl.
At the bus stop an argument between Daniel and the group that had followed after him took place. When the bus stopped several people tried to get Daniel to go on-board, but Daniel chose to remain. The situation became increasingly infected and excited. It all led to Daniel were subjected to physical abuse and ended up lying in a ditch. At that time one more person arrived at the scene, armed with a knife
Daniel suffered several stabs. The furious attack ended with Daniel being stabbed in the neck. The forensic investigation later revealed that Daniel died as a direct result of the neck injury. The perpetrator was found to have "a severe mental disorder" and later sentenced to psychiatric care on undefined time
-
It was a tragic killing, the actual murder was sentenced

If you are unsure on how to describe yourself, please feel free to take anyone of my suggestions:
Pinhead, asswipe, penis with ears and pond scum, ahh, what the hell...take them all!
justasking at January 15, 2010 10:43 PM
---
Why do I more often get the picture of Sarah Palin in my head when I see your posts?

@ Viking;

You have the same effect on me. Only when I see your posts, you have that certian something reminiscent of DICK Cheney.

Sophist: I apologise if my post gave you the impression I was implying you were racist. I don't beleive that you are. Rather, my post started as a reply to you, and then became a group directed discussion. Perhaps I should have made that more clear.
For the record, I do understand what your argument about right and wrong not always being clear.I don't have my own kids, but I know my mum agonises over choices she made as a young mother and as an impressionable young teacher who was doing what she was told was 'right' only to find out later that it wasn't.Another example is my aunt who as a trainee nurse was told by her matron to "Take up smoking, because it's the only way you'll deal with the stress."
I would suggest that anyone can make such 'oversights' of judgement, even among educated groups, but that where education and socio-economic status are lower, such problems are more common.

when I see your posts, you have that certian something reminiscent of DICK Cheney.
justasking at January 16, 2010 5:35 AM
---
Well, I support the difference is that what you write Sara Palin could agree with.
Dick Cheney would hardly agree even with a syllable I have written.
Or is it just the 'men-part' of me that interest you?

Viking: “Alfonso is one of Law's (Huncillin) aliases for this Spanish thing.
Just look at the video.”

Who cares about your avo/commie snooping and your hallucinations other than Hungarian hating trash?

Who cares about your avo/commie snooping and your hallucinations other than Hungarian hating trash?
Mark at January 16, 2010 7:48 AM
---
So, as a loyal Jobbik-supporter you think that Alfonso is right?
The text published as Alfonso was a direct ripp-off from Lee John Barnes's blog that describes himself as 44 year old man in the UK (http://leejohnbarnes.blogspot.com/).
His blog is titled:
-
"21st Century British Nationalism
Cognitive Dissidence,
The mechanism of warfare and subversion for intellectual revolutionaries"
-
The 'Alfonso'-text was the blog-entry from Saturday, 19 September 2009
"Freedom for Josue Estebanez de la Hija"
As we remember Josue Estebanez de la Hija is the 24 year old soldier convicted for the killing of 16 year old Carlos and stabbing Carlo's friend.
The verdict took into account the aspect of 'hate-crime' then Josue had been called out several times 'I will kill you all red scum/pigs' and made the Nazi-salute (which can be seen on the video (01:35))
-
Democracia Nacional, which is leading this campaign to free the convicted killer on Spanish ground is obviously connected to Jobbik's UK partner, BNP. If no other reason see Lee John Barnes's blog above.
Also all known pro-Jobbik people on this site refuses to distance themselves from Law and Hungarianambience and Democracia Nacional.
-
Spanish TV has shown videos from the leader of Democracia Nacional introducing a rock band playing under the old German Nazi-flag
-
So you support all this?

@ Viking;

The "men-part" of me, that interests you". Actually, not one little bit, although I have to admit, you have one healthy ego. On that note, I find Mr. Cheney a manipulative, arrogant, egotistical son of a bitch and because of that and then some...he reminds me of you.

You take care now.

@ Cinaed;

If anybody would know it would be you.

Is it possible, for a woman to, via ingesting drugs for the sole purpose of inflicting irrevocable damage to an otherwise health fetus, strictly for monetary gain, be considered a parent who is misguided or calculative?

Here we have a great selection of real patriotic
heavy rock music, enjoy :))))))))))))))
http://www.titkolt.hu/

Justasking,

You answer your own question:

If the woman "ingests drugs for the sole purpose of inflicting irrevocable damage to an otherwise health fetus, strictly for monetary gain," then she is "calculative". But she could also be misguided.

The earlier point I was trying to make is that there is difference between "deliberately doing harm to a child (or foetus)" and "not caring about that child". How about the woman who aborts a foetus knowing that child will grow up with a incurable disease. This mother is also making a calculation, that the foetus's life will not be worth living.

I have to admit, you have one healthy ego
justasking at January 16, 2010 9:00 AM
---
Thanks for the compliment, it is noted.
I suppose that makes me different from your friends here, the hate-mongers and supporters of unlawful killing in 'self-defence'.

Hi Law,
Thank you for the heads up on the video presentation of Jobbik campaign kick-off.
It was very informative and uplifting.
Thanks again!

@ Sophist;

Obviously I did not phrase that properly. Okay, lets try again.

I am of the opinion, that if you intentionally harm a child, strictly for your own benefit and with complete disregard for human life, quality of life etc, than, there is now way you can claim to care for that child. There is no argument to support your claim to infact care for that child, for at this point the child is not considered anything other than a pawn.

When a person is in a desperate situation, you do not create another desperate situation, by exploiting others.

This goes against, our natural instinct, to protect our offspring, that protective instinct that begins when a child is conceived.

Now, the issue of aborting a fetus due to an incurable disease. It is our job as parents, to make decisions on behalf of our children, for their best interest. If I were pregnant with a child that was severaly mentally and physically handicapped, I would have to take into consideration their quality of life, who will care for them when I am gone and yes, do I have the mental, physical and financial ability to care for them.

I did part of my internship in a hospital that cared for the most severe cases of mentally and physically handicapped people in the Province I remember commenting to the DON (Director of Nursing) how, especially the children, get little to no visitors (family members), it's was if these patients were just dumped here.

Wait for part 2

@ Sophist cont'

She said "When a parent looses a child, they have the ability to grieve and eventually move on, with a handicapped child (remember these were severe cases at this hospital) you can't move on.
Do I agree with what she said? I don't know. But I can understand what she was trying to say by defending these parents.

So what I am trying to say is that, I will not judge parents, that have to make a decision, on whether to carry child to term or to terminate a pregnancy when faced with, what I see as an impossible situation.

@ Viking;

After viewing that video that you just referenced, I did not see a clear case of murder as you have been suggesting. I saw a desperate person cornered and lashing out accordingly.

@justasking:

People do all kind of crazy things to their children - especially if they're crazy.

We just had a case near my German hometown, where a woman almost killed her child by injecting substances like household cleaners repeatedly. Each time she brought the child to the clinic where doctors were of course rather baffled by the symptoms - until someone found the marks from the injections.

At the trial a psychologist used the term "Münchhausen Syndrome" for the mother - she wanted to get sympathies for the problems she had with her poor child ...

I think they sent her into a clinic instead of jail, because she really is crazy and things maight happen again ...

Justasking,

"I am of the opinion, that if you intentionally harm a child, strictly for your own benefit and with complete disregard for human life, quality of life etc, than, there is now way you can claim to care for that child"

You'll proabably be pleased to learn I don't disagree with anything in this.

At issue is not "harm" - which in any case is a liberal legal concept;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harm_principle

nor is it making a "calculation"; what's at issue is the disregarding of the interests of the foetus/child.

It's not clear to me where I can go with this discussion now, because we seem to share the same principles. The difference between us is what we believe are the facts. You believe that Roma mothers in Edeleny have behaved without regarding the interests of their children, I don't. I also believe that the burden of proof belongs to the accuser, not to the accused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

At present we don't even have a named accused.

After viewing that video that you just referenced, I did not see a clear case of murder as you have been suggesting. I saw a desperate person cornered and lashing out accordingly.
justasking at January 16, 2010 6:15 PM
---
The court did not share your opinion.
The key is that the killer had several chances to leave the train and deliberate chose not to
Instead he stand so he see every one coming in to the train in the eyes
According to several witnesses he was verbally challenging the people going aboard the train
If you check his head closely the 35-53 first seconds you can see like he was talking
Then a rather unprovoked fatal stab to the heart, professionally done
Go to when the CS-gas is dispersed, check which door he comes out from. He could move through the train. This 'group of 50' never passed the middle of the train
*If* the killer would have wanted *avoided* conflict, 10-15 seconds before he took his offensive position, he could easily have moved to the other end of the train and disappeared unseen
He actually do that a few seconds, at 00:22 he takes out his knife and goes forward, he checks where this group is and then return to challenge them
This was never supposed to be self-defence
As you can see, he was never ever *surrounded* before the murder and he could even at that time run out for protection
I actually think that his head was not really screwed on and he probably more belong in a closed psychiatric ward than prison, like the killer of Daniel Wretström

@ Wolfie;

I actually heard of that syndrome that you mentioned. In this case, the Mother allowed Dr's to perform spinal taps on a child just for the attention.

@Sophist;

You know, I could care less, what nationality a woman is, when it is a issue of children being harmed. I just grieve for those children that are born into those types of situations/environments and resent that they are not protected from such evil. It just seems that no one looks at an issue and struggles over the right position to take anymore, yet, our ability to reason, is what makes us human. It just seems lately, people are willing to give up that gift of reason in exchange for that good feeling of belonging to a group. If that makes any sense to you.

He was all alone on the tube on his way to a
nationalist meeting when a mob of 50 AFA thugs,
who as the video will show were armed with knuckle
dusters and tear gas grenades to use against the
nationalist meeting, boarded the tube train he was
on.He wasnt looking for trouble – they were, and
they got it.You can see Josue looking through the
window and realising that he was cornered.
This is when he drew his army knife that he
carried with him.
He didnt have the knife in his hand BEFORE the mob
started to get ready to board the tube train he
was on, he only drew the knife when he realised
that he was cornered and that the mob had seen him
through the glass windows of the tube carriage and
were intending to enter his carriage.
He knew that his life was now in real danger from
this armed mob.
He assumed they were armed, and he was right.
The video footage reveals they were carrying
weapons and the testimony of a security guard at
the scene states he saw the mob also carrying
knives.

Cináed. You are "affected" like your pseudonym suggests. Kenneth, born of fire, is a loose interpretaion of that name. Couldn't be further from the truth in your case.
I won't ask about your sexual orientation-but I can guess!
Add to this yout boorish and priggish nature exemplified by the never-ending and remorseless
drivel that you post - never fails to amaze me.
You are one misguided and pathetic fool that would reveal himself as such wherever you happened to pop up.
PS. You are such a conceited idiot that you think you can take on the reponsibility of replying for others? Do you know them that intimately. I'm sure you follow?

The video footage reveals they were carrying
weapons and the testimony of a security guard at
the scene states he saw the mob also carrying
knives.
Law at January 16, 2010 7:37 PM
---
Sometimes I wonder if we look at the same video...
Please point out where *any* other weapons are shown *before* the murder
As can be seen the CS-gas was dispersed several minutes after the murder and the killer had *no* problem running out of the station
He could have walked out the same way from the beginning, but he chose not to
-
The killer sought protection at 2 Police Officers on the street (who did not know what just happened) and the killer had not been harmed at this time
The 2 Police Officers had some problems defending the killer from the angry crowd that now had understood that at least one person had been killed and another one stabbed
-
The only Security Guard (they were 3 at the station) that witnessed he saw some weapons was the Guard that tried to help the murdered 16 year Carlos. His friends initially tried to stop the Guard and the Guard saw something 'blank'
When the people around the murdered Carlos understood that the Guard tried to help, they let him and cleared the area around
The other 2 Security Guards did not see any weapons, except the murders knife
After the murder there are some objects thrown to and from, but I have not seen any weapons so far
-
Law is again copying in material from the sources I have given above
The killer could have walked from there, he did not

You blind reindeer fucker 3.07 guy in red jacket
thrusting a knife and the obvious tear gas , my lord
your a twisting piece of Israel agent trash..
Saturdays is Sabbath you are breaking jewish law..

Maybe Law looked at that video with closed eyes, upside down, running backwards,because he sees things that a whole Spanish court could not see ...

You blind reindeer fucker 3.07 guy in red jacket
thrusting a knife and the obvious tear gas
Law at January 16, 2010 9:05 PM
---
At 03:07 the killer had already stabbed 2 people, one fatally
The CS-gas was even later and it got the killer to leave the train, so he could not hurt any more people
The Security Guards refused to arrest the killer, the female Security Guard, who can be seen speaking on the radio, collapsed a few seconds later
-
If I ever heard an evidence on 'pre-empty self-defence' it must be this
Exactly like the Israeli Government when they bomb this or that
Csurka Istvan/MIEP seems more and more correct, Jobbik is just a Mossad undercover operation
No wonder Vona Gabor/Jobbik changed his Jewish-sounding name into Vona

@Law, actually it's not me or Viking writing these postings - it's our shabbesgoi, that we hired to work for us - you must excuse his rudeness, he is not used to communicating with a**holes like you ...

The connection between the convicted Spanish murder and his party Democracia Nacional (DN) is found on the web-site of DN:
"No miremos a otro lado, este juicio nació como parte de un complot político contra DN pero se ha convertido en mucho más. No es un juicio sólo contra Josué, es un juicio contra todos aquellos que nos sentimos españoles y que estamos hartos de esta dictadura de izquierdas que en contubernio con los separatistas esta desguazando nuestro país"
-
Into English:
"Let's not look the other way, this lawsuit was born as part of a political plot against DN but has become much more. There is a trial only against Joshua, is a trial against all who we are Spanish and we're sick of this left-wing dictatorship in cahoots with the separatists is scrapping our country"
-
The link between Democracia Nacional (DN) and jobbik can be found on this web-page:
-
http://www.democracianacional.org/dn/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=2794
-
Run it through translate google com and you will find some cookies:
-
A picture consisting of 4 'Brothers In Arm':
Alvaro Peñas (Vpte. DN), Laszlo Toroczkai (Pte HVIM), Gabor Vona (Pte Jobbik) and Manuel Canduela (Pte DN)
-
Speech by The Chairman of Jobbik, Gabor Vona,
...
we are prepared for the outlawing of Jobbik, we will continue the fight in very different ways and inexorably the next election will draw more than 30% of the vote. Our progress will be unstoppable and will impose a nationalist government
-
From the Mouth of the Horse

Justasking,

"It just seems lately, people are willing to give up that gift of reason in exchange for that good feeling of belonging to a group. If that makes any sense to you."

I'm surprised you wrote that, I had you down for a nationalist. A nationalist would argue that you can only use reason because you belong to a group.
I tend to agree with the belonging to a group idea, but it doesn't follow that the group has to be a nation.

@ Wolfi and justasking

Not much time for the computer so if someone already posted this - sorry

I watched a documentary on a Mother poisoning her child and rushing off to the hospital - It was called Munchhauser by Proxy . Without the word proxy, the person poisions/hurts him/herself and then goes to the hospital for attention

I share justasking's views on aborting a fetus when the situation is hopeless. It should be up to the parents.

Unlike the allegations against the Roma women, there are way too many women ingesting drugs and drinking alcohol not because they want to harm their babies but because they are addicts.

justasking - you seem to have a nursing type background - My background gives me the chance to see the kids many years later and see the harm that caused - mostly unintentionally.

The victims of Shaking Baby Syndrome are often cry a lot and the caretaker cannot deal with the frustration. Horrible

I find it sad that no proof nor court action is forthcoming about the so called Roma babies being harmed while the Mother is pregnant.

I don't want to get off track about "cases in Canada" - suffice to say that in Ont. parents have been rotting in jail for years convicted of killing their children - evidence has come to light that ONE medical expert witness made a mistake - the people whose lives have been ruined are now being released - the "expert" is crying on TV ;he is sorry about his mistakes

No one should be accused of anything without proof.

@ Sophist;

Well, your reaction does not surprise me. You have your mind made up about some of us on this site and because of this, you take on a Holier Than Thou attitude, which then inturn, does not able you to really understand, or even want/try to understand what that person is "saying". Again, just my opinion.

Hi Zsuzsa, I think the whole thing of whether or not the intent to hurt a child cancels out any sense of care can be complicated in many ways.To skip to the specifics of your question though, as long as all other mental health issues have been ruled out, it seems fairly clear that intentionally hurting oneself or one's baby deliberately with the calculated intent of applying for a greater benefit does contradict notions of 'natural' parental attachment and care for one's offspring.Having said that, people are inherently contradictory, despite our attempts to appear otherwise.So, on the whole, I do regret if it is irritating, but I can see the sense in what both you and Sophist have posted.
I really liked this:"It just seems lately, people are willing to give up that gift of reason in exchange for that good feeling of belonging to a group."
I gave up on the whole belonging to a group thing, because I found that too often, membership meant compromising my values or being spoken for in a way I didn't agree with.It's something I still battle with as a researcher; being told that I should say 'this' or study 'that'.
-
I don't always agree with your point of view, but do respect that you have made up your own mind.Some time ago, you described yourself as 'leaning right, but not horizontal', which I think is perfectly reasonable and shows that you are not blind to the reasoning of others.I hope we can continue to have positive discussions in the future.

@ Cinaed;

From you of all people. Your post, and all that I have experienced on this site, by far, has been the most hurtful and insulting.

" I do regret if it is irritating",

why would I be irritated by your opinion? It's yours. Because it does not mesh with mine, is that what you think? Have I ever given you any indication, that I have no use for you or anybody for that matter, unless their opinions coincide with what I believe to be true? Don't get me wrong, I will challenge anybody to DEFEND their position; but, not deny them the right to it.

" Continue to have positive discussions in the future"

That, for sure, is my favourite. You are assuming, that if you disagree with my views, that I would just cut you off at the knees, wipe my hands and be done with you. Nothing can be further from the truth. I tend to have more respect for people, who will stand up for what they believe in, whether I agree with them or not, rather then somebody, that agrees with me simply to agree. I have no time for people like that, nor will I make time.

Which leads us to where we are right now, today.

For some reason, I thought, that you thought, more of me then that. Obviously not. So, what more is there to say.

I truly wish you all the best;

Justasking.

justasking: Huh? Nothing in my post was intended to be at all confrontational, accusatory or insulting. I also wasn't writing with any 'between the lines' motives. What I was trying to say is that I appreciate your posts, and the way you present your point of view, and hope to keep it going. Gosh. Now it's my turn to feel a little hurt. The 'regret if it is irritating' thing was genuine...I don't like to irritate people, especially those that I respect.

I have noticed Cináed has been playing the caring
understanding fun loving helpful friend to
everyone, but already I can see where he stands in
the grey area, which is also an area of no
spiritual responsibility and keeps people in a
hopeless motionless position, because of his
terrible experience with Christianity as a child,
and reading between the lines he tries to explain
with intellectual jargon by diluting the truth.
In my opinion this is wrong and he’s vibrating
not from the heart only from the head which leads
people down a dead end path. So again think with
your heart and you will have success. He will now
attempt his intellectual jargon to try and prove
his grey area of nothingness. Don’t waste your
time on me because you are mis -qualifying your
energy Cináed , if I wanted counseling from you I
would make an appointment.. I don’t claim to have
all the answers but I do know a feel with my
intuition when I smell a rat, and if you are
genuine on your path of enlightenment then you
have a big obstacle of your EGO blocking your
vision, so snap out of this false perception and
use your free will constructively.

think with your heart and you will have success
Law at January 17, 2010 11:32 AM
---
So true.
That has always been my guiding principle, that is why I see all people equal and say no to the type of 'Nationalism' that want all assimilate into the majority-culture and that all become similar inside a geographic area (aka Nation State).
And that is why I think criminals should be tried for the crimes they commit, not for the ethnicity they belong to or which political views they subscribe to.
Is the guiding principle:
# individuals or the collective?
A group of individuals who strive to better their condition, or a collective where individuals have to conform?
Communism and fascism has always been for the collective, with a strong leader. Both totalitarian ideologies that very much focused on the geographic area (aka Nation State), just with different colours on their flags.
Both ideologies focused on the 'Enemy', both internal and external.
Both ideologies has a long and sad history of creating disasters.
Getting rid of one of these totalitarian ideologies 20 years ago, does not make it correct to adopt the other today, then Hungary has felt the burden of the cross of fascism, before communism.

I agree with you (for a change) Viking. Fascism and Communism are two varieties of the same evil.
Jobbik (if they can) will have to learn that moderation and tolerance in all things will pay dividends.
If it is the goose-stepping, eyes-right, thing again
we are on course for trouble.
I think we have to give Jobbik a chance because anything must be better than what the MSZP has served up over the past eight years.

I think we have to give Jobbik a chance because anything must be better than what the MSZP has served up over the past eight years.
Linesman at January 17, 2010 4:17 PM
---
The problem is just that Jobbik will mess it up even worse. No where in Europe you can see an example where Jobbik's partners have succeeded.
Hungary's problem is that it is not enough European-style of politics, a big State overhead that need to be reduced and instead get people into private owned businesses that will develop when needed, or be replaced.
Jobbik just want to have more publicly owned businesses and who will pay those?
BKV is a typical example on a business run by politicians, why should more politicians improve businesses in Hungary?
Like Jobbik's Swedish partner that demands the Swedish State nationalise SAAB. To what benefit? A state-owned SAAB will not be able to sell more SAAB-cars, but that is the 'Nationalist' response.

@Linesman
Do not fall for Communist lies. Jobbik could not be further from fascists. To these bent on world domination by whatever means, Communism was only one of their tools. Every one who stands in their destructive and dehumanizing totalitarian rule is Fascist or whatever. We heard that garbage so many times that it is surprising that anyone gives them any notice.
Those who profiteer with organs of their victims have no use for anyone who wants to protect their people from those who destroy them. Hungarians, not those who hate Hungarians should decide what is best for Hungary and Hungarians.
If you can read Hungarian, you should read Jobbik’s program.

@ Cinaed

Did I tell you you were going to be "the Enemy"?
I looked in my crystal ball.

It's either "with us or against us"

BTW - off topic

I wanted to send you an email - concerns children who are convicted of murder and their life sentences from a criminal defense lawyer's perspective. Don't want to post it on your website for public viewing - does you website allow people to send you an email like Vandorlo's does? I looked but being the computerly challenged person that I am I was unable to figure it out.

Hi Olga,

I believe that if you click on the 'contact us' tab, you can send me a message that way.If you include your email address, I'll email you and you can send stuff direct that way. Does that make sense? I'm not a jedi-master of the cyber-universe either, so don't worry about that.

@Olga
You do not have to read Hungarian to look at pictures, I assume. These people would have lined up and murdered your father who hated the Communists and who you do not consider patriotic. If they had succeeded, you would not have been born a free person in Canada, free to smear those your parents would have been closest and cheer for those who would have murdered them.
This is what the paramilitary Communist murderers looked like, not the blood donor, flood fighter, patriotic Magyar Garda. Take a real good look at those you love so much:

A velünk élő munkásőr
http://www.magyarhirlap.hu/hullamter/a_velunk_elo_munkasor.html

@ Cinaed and Mark

Cinaed - Thanks, will try tomorrow - I have no problems with your knowing my email address.

Mark - No one negates the horrors of the Stalinist/Rakosi era. Have you ever seen anyone stating otherwise?

For those who believe in the Holocaust including the present Pope, the prevailing thought is " acknowledge it, move on"

Hitler, Stalin, Rakosi and the rest of them are all dead, their powers and threat are over. So is Attila the Huns ( I thought of him because 3 people called me and asked if I saw a 2 hr programme on TV concerning him yesterday. Unfortunately i didn't)

Anyway, why do you need to live in the past? The Jewish people I know never mention the Holocaust,the death camps, Hitler etc although I admit they were born after the war.

Anyway, I was not born a "free person in Canada" - I was born in BP. could never cross the border into the US without proof of Citizenship (they asked your place of birth) - things have changed now everyone needs a passport but prior to 9/11 the US never considered me "equal" to a person born in Canada. No big deal just a fact

Time for us all to "move on" I think? It will
never happen. It's the Hungarian disease to linger in the past and, by so-doing, we can only dream of a future that will never materialise.
As for this forum dealing with political issues relating to modern-day Hungary?
It has become just another means for the "in-crowd (they know who they are)to pass their
meaningless, and aimless, secret messages that they believe are more important than the general welfare of the Hungarian nation. So be it!

@Linesman
"It's the Hungarian disease to linger in the past..."
Yes I couldn't agree more. It's about time all this nonsensical talk about the Szálasi government and the holocaust was left alone once and for all. I mean who does this Elie Wiesel think he is?
What?...
Sorry?...
Oh you mean it's only lingering on injustices suffered in the past/present by gentile Magyars that we have to forget about?
Right. Gotcha.
Silly me...

@ Cinaed;

I think I may have overreacted a teeney weeney bit.
After rereading the "do regret if it is irritating" portion again, I understand what you were trying to say. When I first read it, I thought you meant that I would find it irritating that you were not choosing side.

"I hope that we can continue..." comment, again, I took it to mean "that-I-hope-your-not-mad-at-me because-I-didn't-take-your-side" type of drivel, that people throw out on occasion with the intent of humouring the other person. I felt at the time, that you had blind-sided me, hence my reaction.

I ask that you accept my heartfelt apology, in the hopes, that I can reverse some of the damage that I know my words caused.

Z

@ Olga;

Your theory of me considering others "The Enemy", if they do not agree with what I have to say, is about as accurate as you assuming that I have a "nursing-type background". Now, would you like to hear what I propose you do with your Crystal Ball?

@ Bobscountrybunker. Hungary cannot forget about its past. I know. I watched those Soviet tanks roll into Budapest in 1956 on TV as a young boy in England.
But, like Farkas László, I want this country to have a future built on the wealth of talent here, that all too often, has to go abroad to find employment.
Raking over the coals of a turbulent, and often horrific past, cannot supply answers as to how Hungary will extricate itself from the current mess created by the useless and inefficient MSZP.
I hope some sort of deal can be struck between Jobbik and Fidesz come April. And, together, they can start unravelling the million and one problems that face us today.
I am right-wing but not an extremist.
I acknowledge that the customs and traditions of every country should be preserved and honored.
I loathe the one-size-fits-all type of EU collective. And the supermarkets that provide inferior goods and tasteless food. Most of the time to the detriment of local farmers and their fresh produce.

@Linesman
"I hope some sort of deal can be struck between Jobbik and Fidesz come April. And, together, they can start unravelling the million and one problems that face us today.
I am right-wing but not an extremist.
I acknowledge that the customs and traditions of every country should be preserved and honored.
I loathe the one-size-fits-all type of EU collective."

A man after my own heart.

I hope some sort of deal can be struck between Jobbik and Fidesz come April. And, together, they can start unravelling the million and one problems that face us today
Linesman at January 17, 2010 11:43 PM
---
As you seem to have some connection to the UK, if BNP (British National Party) is your party or you think that BNP working together with Tory to rule England, then Jobbik is your party.
The English partner for Fidesz is actually a bit harder. Fidesz is member of PPP in the EU, Tory shifted in the Summer to the "European Conservatives and Reformists group", which is the same that the Hungarian MDF are in.
-
I am not totally sure that Fidesz would not get some problems internationally if they make a power-sharing deal with Jobbik come April.
-
As I understand Tory has never expressed any plans to make any power-sharing deals with BNP, on the contrary Tory has stated explicitly that they are not interested in that, coming next elections.

Zsuzsa: Sincere thanks for your post. No problem. have a good week.

Bobscountrybunker: “A man after my own heart.”

Linesman is so typical of those people Vona describes as Jobbik supporters who do not yet know it. It sometimes frustrates me to see a lot of people whose heat is in the right place and whose ideas are right for Hungary and Hungarians yet they are unable to commit to those ideas because all they ever see and read in the “dominant” media is lies about Jobbik.

I was probably a Jobbik supporter before there was a Jobbik. It is hard to believe that a movement started by 14 university students in 2003 would grow as fast as Jobbik did. Maybe Linesman remembers watching on TV the university students marching to the statue of General Bem. Who would have thought that maybe a thousand university students marching to Bem’s statue, in defiance of Communist orders not to do it, would shake the Kremlin bosses and would eventually lead to the destruction of Soviet empire?

Those who are again seeking world domination, such as those advocating globalization and super EU are again taking notice of these movements and they are shaking again. People want to be free and to be masters of their own fate. People do not want to be slaves to the Communists, globalization or the EU.

People do not want to be slaves to the Communists, globalization or the EU.
Mark at January 18, 2010 8:00 AM
---
That 'Nationalism', especially the 'Radical'-variant, that Bob, Mark, Ricsi and Law are supporting, is they way forward in today's Europe can be seen in Slovakia today and their new Language Law and old Yugoslavia yesterday.
If those things are what we need more of in Europe today, then Jobbik is definitely the correct party to go for.
If you are for a more mainstream development, where different EU member states develop their future in cooperation, respecting each other, then Jobbik and their partners are definitely what to shy away from.
Each one has to make up their mind and actively try to influence the future their way.
Those who do not, just give the support to those who win and has no right to complain afterwards.

I was googling through the Internet and came across your blog. Great post!

@ all

Thanks to a spam, this topic came up against.

The original article is dated October 5, 2009 so it is a few days from being 4 months old.

Regarding the first paragraph (....and vowed to launch a legal appeal against the Equal Opportunity Authority, which has condemned him for his standpoint. )

So Mr Molnar, who I am sure is true to his word is now in the middle of litigation. Anyone know when he officially filed his complain and when it is set for trial?

I am sure he was not just grandstanding, thus there must be some news on the proceedings.

What's going on?

@Olga: As you'd expect, quite the opposite is the case. A number of organisations and individuals have begun proceedings against Molnár Oszkár following the unfounded claims made http://bit.ly/d9iKJr I'm sure people like Law, Ricsi and Mark will all be digging deep and helping him out, given their strength of feeling about his claims.

@ Vandorlo

I hope you are satisfied knowing that you completely ruined my day.

The news that Molnar did not keep his word is equivalent to finding out there is no Santa Clause. I completely trusted this man.

I assume that "bíróság átvette" means there was enough evidence against Molnar that charges could be laid.

The only part I don't understand is that if politicians are exempt from libel than how come he can be charged?

I thought he was free to lie through his teeth and free to utter absolute shit in order to make himself popular with his lunatic followers.

The only part I don't understand is that if politicians are exempt from libel than how come he can be charged?
olga at February 2, 2010 3:59 PM
---
Only MPs are exempted, meaning Molnar as a local Mayor in itself has no legal immunity.
Now Molnar is an MP also, so is excused for the moment, but as I understand he is not on Fidesz' list and does he not make it in to the new Parliament on his own, or by the help of Jobbik, then he can face the music on April 12.
The thing is also that the Prosecutor can still charge an MP, but must go to the Parliament to ask the Parliament to lift the legal immunity.
As the State Prosecutor did with MDF's David and Hernyi before. This was though rejected by the Parliament
If the case is still valid when the MP comes out of the legal immunity all charges can be brought forward as normal
The problem is just if the case has not gone cold and been written off, or any Parliament in between changed the laws in such a way the failing MP got pardoned/immunity any way
The latter happens in Italy now and then with Berlusconi and his business friend's trials
The latter comment is also related to your earlier question on which country is more corrupt than Hungary. Italy is probably a good contender there and they have the Mafia, which is much more intelligent and dominating that the local thugs here in Hungary
Not that you will hear any Hungarian agreeing with the last statement though, it takes away their sense of 'exclusiveness'

There are close to a 1,000 MSZP and SZDSZ politicians facing charges of corruption. Molnar is being sued while he is suing his accusers. There will be a trial down the road where he will have to back up his charges or face the consequences. In the meanwhile, I hope that Jobbik wins the disputed seat.
The strange thing is that none of those organizations could sue Molnar in America. The only time you can sue for damages if someone accuses you something that defames you and it is not true. Molnar saying that some gypsy women damage their babies does not qualify as a libel in America. Molnar claims that he can prove his charges and I am interested in the outcome of these trials. I believe that what Molnar said is true. Two Communists made similar charges and they were not sued. Did the Communists speak the truth about gypsy mothers damaging their babies for more welfare? Is that OK to say it for a Communist but not for someone who is not a Communist?
In any case, while they fighting each other, Jobbik could win the seat. That would be the best for everyone who matters concerned.

Thanks Viking - I was warned that the Hungarian system was complicated. Maybe that's why it's so fascinating to me

Interesting about Italy

Mark - I am beginning to think you are a slow learner. I don't claim to be the expert on Hungary but I know that the Hungarian justice system is not the same as in Canada so it's kind of irrelevant how the Molnar sage would play out in the USA - I know how it would play out here but it's a moot point

On the subject of irrelevance - who cares if it's
Molnar, Communists, Arab Terrorist or Aliens make the unsubstantiated claims?

BTW - how is Mr. Molnar's law suit going? You know, the one he initiated as per his statement last October and I am sure you are up to date on the proceedings. Vandorlo's posting indicated he is the one being sued but I am sure you know better

On the subject of making no sense - you wrote:
"The only time you can sue for damages if someone accuses you something that defames you and it is not true. " - And your point is? The allegations are impossible to prove - get it?

Good news: We agree on something. I believe Molnar is the ideal candidate for JOBBIK. Only Mesterhazy could possibly be better.

Correction:

I meant only Budhazy could be a better candidate than Molnar.

Not that Mesterhazy is going to read my posting but I am sincerely sorry for using his name in connection to Molnar.

There are close to a 1,000 MSZP and SZDSZ politicians facing charges of corruption
Mark at February 2, 2010 5:41 PM
---
Wow!
I wonder if the Prosecutors know that?
The question if there exists even "1,000 MSZP and SZDSZ politicians" in the whole of Hungary, even if you count in every Polgarmester etc
A politician is an elected person, so it is not a public employee we are speaking about.
The Hungarian Parliament has a total of 386 members, of those MSZP and SZDS has (190+20=) 210
These 210 are the ones with 'legal immunity against prosecutions as long as they are MPs'
790 politicians left to find on Mark's list:
Checking the result from:
-
http://www.valasztas.hu/onkval2006/en/20/20_0.html
-
and clicking on every region you will find approx 900 politicians from all parties
MSZP and SZDSZ has around 30-40% of those, let us say 350?
So, where are the remaining (790-350=) 440 MSZP and SZDSZ politicians?
-
Obviously Mark just picks a figure out of someone else's hat and has nothing to substantiate it with, more than future statements 'all MSZP and SZDSZ politicians will be convicted!'
But for what?
Being against Jobbik?
Clearly Mark is looking to penalize political thinking, that is where his demand for 'Free Speech' stops

@Olga: It's getting a bit complicated at the moment as various people take out suits against various others. 200 Roma women are taking out a joint case against Molnár. The breakdown of events is given in this story: http://www.168ora.hu/itthon/karteritesert-perli-200-roma-asszony-molnar-oszkart-50230.html Apologies but no time to continuously translate and Mark could do with the language practice anyway.
I normally use key words such as "Person's_name/Organisation's_name beperel/bíróság/kárterítés" when searching and restrict by date. Always comes up trumps.

@olga: “Correction: I meant only Budhazy could be a better candidate than Molnar.”
No problem, I am getting used to your saying almost anything as long as you thin that it finds favor with the idegenszivuek. It is a good thing too because if not for you, only Zionazis pretending to be Swedes, Germans, Irish and whatever would be pouring out their hate of Hungarians who want to live as free and independent people in their own country. We would not want it to be just Hungarians against these "people" wanting to rob Hungarians of everything they have, they will ever have and their children’s children will ever have. Why should you care?

@ Mark

I am sorry you think I am anti-Hungarian but it's the price I pay for wanting to learn about the political scene in my country of birth.

The "idegenszivuek" have a huge vested interest in Hungary since they live there, pay taxes and some of them are raising their kids there.

I often ask questions because I don't know the answer - this is one of them. Please answer it directly without using the words "Communism" "Communists" "Rakosi" etc. -

According to the Polls, FIDESZ is going to win. (I don't see anyone singing the praises of FIDESZ around here) - I am not interested in the pros and cons of the party at the moment, nor its background.

I assume that only Hungarians have the vote, thus "the idegenszivuek " do not get their say in the spring. (I also assume the majority of "real Hungarians" don't speak and/or write English so they are not in a position to post on this website)

You must admit that no matter how much you care about Hungary, the people who actually live there and have no options to leave, are the people who should decide on the government they want.

So if FIDESZ is going to win a majority, does that mean the majority of Hungarians are anti-Hungarian? They do have the JOBBIK option
and the majority is expected to ignore that option

There is the possibility that people are so apathetic that the "majority win" is only the majority of a very small number of people coming out to vote - the JOBBIK option mentioned above still stands.

Can u explain

Hungarians who want to live as free and independent people in their own country
Mark at February 2, 2010 7:14 PM
---
So why is not Jobbik putting up Budahazy on an electable position on its national list then?
I checked the Hungarian Constitution, amended the 1st of January this year and available in an approved translation on:
-
http://mkab.hu/index.php?id=constitution
-
For me any restrictions would be in
Article 70.
(1) All adult Hungarian citizens residing in the territory of the Republic of Hungary shall have the right to be elected and the right to vote in Parliamentary elections; they shall have the right, furthermore, to participate in national referenda and popular initiatives
-
But I cannot see any, so in with Budahazy in the next Parliament and he will have immunity against all these accusations of terrorism etc
But hurry up, before it is too late

@Olga: Just to revisit that link I posted the most important piece was that of the previous class action against Molnár on October 14th 2009 was not allowed to proceed by Parliament despite protestations. Obviously this doesn't bode well, but as Viking pointed out immunity is not for ever. And even in Berlusconi's case his immunity from prosecution was also removed back in October by the high courts http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8295716.stm In Hungary the next thing that needs to be done is reform the time limits on prosecutions. This has been used far too often to sit on cases that were pretty much water tight, just to save everyone's skin. Reform those and we can start calling everyone to account for the things they've been up to.

@Mark. In the absence of a policy guide/manifesto from any of the other parties contesting the forthcoming elections perhaps it might be expedient for us to
have a peek at a small contentious issue in Jobbik’s tour de force?

Interpretations, Translations, and Semantics
Can you please clarify, or comment on the following:
Hungarian:
“Hiszem, hogy ez a program megerősíti azokat, akik eddig is bennünk bíztak, meggyőzi azokat, akik eddig nem mertek hallgatni a jobbik eszükre, és végül elbizonytalanítja és meghátrálásra kényszeríti azokat, akik Magyarországra nem a hazájukként, a magyarságra pedig nem nemzetükként tekintenek.”
English:
“I believe, that this manifesto will encourage those, who have chosen to put their trust in us thus far, will convince those, who until now have not had the confidence to listen to their better [here using the comparative “jobbik”] judgement, and will finally, both unsettle and compel the waning of those, who neither look on Hungary as their homeland, or the Hungarian people as their nation.”
(“… Vona's third group does represent - to most Hungarian minds - Gypsies, Jews and foreigners. ..Jobbik site was once more explicit about this). Vona is certainly sophisticated enough to build his party by offering hints that this third...”)
(Sophist)
Reatreat, wane, desist, take a hike, Arivederci Roma!
What is Vona really getting at. Do you know?
This probably underscores why it is important to get an accurate translation done?

@Olga:

The outlook for Hungary is really not very rosy.

My wife just talked to her older son(who has his own business now building things ...) and he said business is bad, no decisions are made for investment, everybody is waiting what will happen on election day. Who will really be in power at the end of April ?

And then she said: Orban is very egotistical, only interested in power, almost a kind of little Hitler ...

That's what she remembers from the time he was in power a few years ago - let's hope he has become a bit wiser. Any way the EU will "dampen" anything the new government might try, I think we're lucky there ...

@ Vandorlo and Wolfi

Thanks for the clarification re the charges or the lack thereof concerning Molnar. However, he "vowed" to launch an appeal according to the first paragraph so I wondered how his appeal was going. Surely he has had time in 4 months to carry out his promise.

About the upcoming elections - if Orban has a possibility of a 2/3rd majority, do the Hungarian language political websites and newspapers have enthusiastic supporters for FIDESZ? The same enthusiasm as shown on this website for JOBBIK.

Wolfi

Is your wife going to vote? According to what I read, only 51 percent of Hungarians are going to vote. Is she in that 51%?

@Olga: “The "idegenszivuek" have a huge vested interest in Hungary since they live there, pay taxes and some of them are raising their kids there.”
The kullancs also has a vested interest in the human it is attached but only while sucking its blood. When it sucked all the blood it needs, it drops off its victim leaving the victim weak and infected. Most foreign "investors" are not investors but blood suckers.
Fidesz voters are not anti-Hungarians.

@HZRT
As far as I can judge, the translation is not bad. The rest is hogwash.
Viking has the unprincipled habit of taking statements and twisting them completely so that it has no relationship to what the other person said. It is so dishonest that it makes me puke. I can tolerate opponents who disagree with me but not the slimy dishonest Viking’s ilk. I hope that people of integrity respond to what I say and not what dishonest people make up. My opinions are my own and I do not speak for Jobbik Only Jobbik’s program and Jobbik’s main site speak for Jobbik. They have a designated spokesperson. Law or Ricsi might know who that person is.

Things are difficult everywhere at the moment.
Hungary can survive and prosper. It cannot succeed without first getting rid of the wholesale corruption which has hindered its progress for decades.
Hungary has natural resources that can be exploited to the benefit of the people.
Good, honest government? Can we expect this from Fidesz? Will Jobbik make a difference?
Moaning and complaining all the time does nobody
any good.
Airport at Lake Balaton, Gas at Mako, foreign investors coming on board, etc etc. Not bad!
Stop the fucking whinging and start doing something positive.
PS @ Mark. I appreciate you are not the spokesman
for Jobbik. But at lest they do have a manifesto
which hopefully gives us some idea of their intentions.
BTW. Are you playing Romeo to Viking's, Juliet?
"..What light from yon window breaks?"

@Olga:

Yes, she'll vote - if we are in Hungary at the time, it seems too complicated to vote if your abroad.

There is still the chance that we might make that visit to the USA (and her relatives there) in April though that we planned last year.

But she already told me that she won't vote for the "winners" - she worked in a mayor's office for many years in communist and post-communist time and from experience has not much respect for politicians and bureaucrats of any colour - actually no respect at all!

Especially but not only in communist times the most stupid guys got "management" jobs as long they belonged to the right party - some of these high ranking people couldn't even read and write properly!

They are all the same - give them some power and they feel like Napoleon (or Hitler or Stalin or Mao ...)

The worst about Hungarian politicians seems to be that many (or most of them ?) are really unscrupulous about using their office for their (and their family's) financial gain - they even don't care if people watch them filling their own pockets ...

And once again: This happens weather they call themselves liberal or socialist or conservative, christian, democrat, republican, WTF ...

HZRT,
If you want to know more about Jobbik is really wanting to take Hungary to I would recommend this article on their English-language site:
-
http://www.jobbik.com/europe-news/3150.html
-
Bela Kovacs: Our geographical and historical heritage ties our country to Europe and Russia
...
We must find again the Russian market, because demand still exists there for a number of our products. Russia could also present herself as a willing, sympathetic partner in a strategic alliance for defending Hungarian minority rights, as many Russians live in similar minority status along their own borders
===
The article starts out with the normal statement that Hungary must get back the Pre-Trianon borders, continuing that Jobbik (at the same time?) will build a good cooperation with regional partners (the same that just happily gave back part of 'their' land to Hungary?) and then continues with this statement above
.
One must understand this latter statement. Russians of today look at the old Soviet-union borders as their 'Pre-Trianon'-borders
The Russians want it all back, therefore the wording "many Russians live in similar minority status along their own borders"
They are thinking on the Russians living in today's Baltic states, Ukraine, etc
-
Then we can all think how Bela Kovacs spent his study-time in Russia
He never got a contact with the Cheka, previously called KGB, now called FSB
Why was Bela different from the others?
Why is he now working for the most pro-Russian party here?

@ Mark and Wolfi

Mark - Thanks for the pithy answer stating that FIDESZ supporters are not anti-Hungarian. Unless there are vocal FIDESZ supporters on Hungarian websites as well as a clear agenda, I guess the party policy is "to take the 5th" , hope the polls are correct and not say too much. They are in the lead and no point screwing up a good thing with too much information.

About "Most foreign "investors" are not investors but blood suckers." - I would love to have Farkas Laszlo's opinion on this. I know that Canada encourages foreign investment but as we said a million times Canada is not Hungary so it is irrelevant.

Wolfi - I am glad your wife is voting - my one and only true Hungarian girlfriend who never left BP has the same sentiments about the political scene as your wife but she won't vote. Personally I think you have no right to complain unless you make the effort to vote if you are an eligible voter but then again that's just my personal opinion

@ Viking. I cannot accept from any party that Hungary will benefit from striking any form of alliance with the Russians. Whether it be trade,
arms deals, re-ordering of pre-Trianon borders etc.
Hungary is part of the EU - like it or not.
A lot of countries including the US and Israel want to invest big time in this country. This is a fact. Fidesz will win the election. Orban must set the stall out in a way that will encourage investors from any quarter. Hungary is a small nation with great people. It should look after itself and, for a change, look to the future with some optism.
China, America, India, Brazil, all major players.
Let them exploit the world.
We should exploit are natural resources in this country and distribute them equitably among the people. Fuck everybody else. This is the attitude we should adopt because it is the motto of the jungle. Survival of the fitteset in a cruel, cruel, world. Work hard in Hungary, expect a reasonable wage, promote and shout Hungary's praises. Even if we don't believe it we can always dream?

Dear HZRT,
I hate to bring the news to you but currently their are not many investors (US or Israel) if any
waiting to invest in Hungary.Which is of course
for the country a problem and be sure Victor orban
is doing all he can to try to attact foreign investment.
You say ,f...k the world and let us use our natural resources ....Now can you be here a little bit more specific with your macro economical plans? Which natural resources do you think off?Who will pay for exploiting them? Can
you do that without harming the environment?Do you
buyers for these and what price? How many people will find employment in this ?What do you do with
the educated and disgruntled universitiy students who do not find work in Hungary? What do you with
your agriculture?Do you still any tourist here in Hungary?if no,do you convert all the hotels into
old people homes?etc etc. Do you have some credible ideas which are positive and may help
hungary?

The problem with foreign investors is that they are not investors but predators. They buy up factories on the cheap and in a short time, they close them down to stop production of items by Hungarian workers that their own workers produce. Almost everything they touched they destroyed and that is the major cause of Hungary’s high unemployment. These foreign companies take out much more than what they bring into Hungary. They do not build but destroy. Only those foreign investors who bring in new manufacturing industries and jobs are worth allowing in. The vultures and destroyers of manufacturing plants are not welcome.
They are looking at the Hungarian farmland with their predator designs and even Fidesz promised to protect the Hungarian farmland. We know that Jobbik would keep its promise and we will soon see how reliable Fidesz is. Unfortunately, we only have Hungarian Jobbik supporters and foreigners who support the current Communist MSZP/SZDSZ coalition.
It is hard to find out the Fidesz position on the Hungarian language lists also. The paid communist provocateurs are infiltrating most lists, pretending to be Fidesz or Jobbik supporters and spewing out lies and filth non-stop. They are easily recognized because of their style and filth but they still manage to make serious and meaningful debates hard to carry on.

The problem with foreign investors is that they are not investors but predators. They buy up factories on the cheap and in a short time, they close them down to stop production of items by Hungarian workers that their own workers produce
...
They are looking at the Hungarian farmland with their predator designs and even Fidesz promised to protect the Hungarian farmland
Mark at February 3, 2010 6:09 PM
---
General statements that does not provide any specifics about which factories have been closed down
Of course there have been a few cases like this, but the overwhelmingly majority of foreign investments have been here to stay for a long period and will stay on if the business climate is enough good in comparison to where to move, including the cost of relocating
So, again, without any real-life examples Mark's sweeping statements are just slogans and even if Mark would be able to provide some of the few examples that existed during the last 20 years, the will not make up a big place in the big picture
-
That any future Hungarian Government will be able to prolong the moratorium on allowing people/companies from other EU member states to buy up Hungarian Farm land is a very good question
There is no such precedence there is no such mechanism to introduce a ban that the remaining EU-states would allow
Of course Hungary could enact national laws that most probably be challenged in accordance to the
legal procedures that do exists when EU member states do not follow the 'rules'

You really need some help. In a way, I feel a little sad for you.

@CM - Personally, I feel more sad for Hungary!

But it's a CLOSE one! That's for sure... Hungary *deserves* our attentions, there's one distinction!

It is the “attention” of such ilk that created the unbearable conditions for Hungarians

If a law was brought in that put a quota on the number of times you could use one particular word in conversation, would that be against the principles of free speech? ...or would it be justifiable on the basis of being 'in the public interest'?
-
"ilk"

...there's no need to cry over spilled m...
;)