Calls for stripping of MP’s immunity over allegedly anti-Semitic remarks

@ all
I guess Oszkar has a problem ; unlike on the other thread, I am not going to bang my head against the wall and discuss “hate speech vs freedom of speech” – learned my lesson plus my head still hurts.
Can’t wait to read postings defending his “rights”.
What has not come up with the “Holocaust postings” are statistics about the 5 million non-Jews who were also killed. The history books I read claimed 3 million non-Jews were killed in Poland.

@ Olga;
Ricsi is right, Molnar is not saying anything that Israel has not themselves admited. Just go on u-tube and see for yourself.
I do not see him trying to insight hate by these comments, just stating facts. If I said that China ownes the US, does that make me anti-Chinese? No, it’s just a fact that China does own the US due to all the money that they (China) has lent them (US). Here is just another case of “smoke and mirrors”.

@ Olga;
Most things are not true…except the ones that are.

@Ricsi – “Jewish banks take over”.
Perhaps, you could tell us, which banks in Hungary are ‘kosher’ (non-Jewish) and which are non-kosher (Jewish)? I’m just curious.
That info would be extremely useful so that people don’t get money from the wrong one. My Hungarian colleague asked me to help him review some loan packages about a month ago.

Justasking,
Maybe George is afraid that when your favourit Hungarian party Jobbik takes over they will throw out these “Jewish banks”, so now he need help with a new dimension on advising on a bank loan issue.
The question is valid:
- Which bank/s/ do Jobbik prefer and will survive the ‘big purge’?
—
OTP?
Well is that not also a ‘multi-national company’, or is there a excuse for them being ‘Hungarian’?
But a suppose you would find a few Jews in there also if you looked enough hard?

@ George;
Fine, you did not deserve that from me and I am sorry. Now if you want to start calling me by my first name, please have the decency to spell it properly. It is not spelt ZZ but, Zsuzsa or Zsuzsi or Zsuzsika or “the one with the sultry voice”. Any one of those will do.

@the one with the sultry voice – No apologies required at all. You challenged me exactly on what I wrote. There was no “twisting, or smoke or mirrors”. You just changed the context, and extended my argument, but nowhere did you change what I wrote. This is exactly what Viking does to you, Ricsi, usw.
You/I can then defend your/my statement, or lose credibility. Alternatively, we can admit our mistake as Van did on the point of grammar (even though he was probably more correct on all of the facts). As an ex-military guy, credibility & integrity are important to me. Coming across politely like Laszlo, unfortunately, is less important, but then, you know that already
I mean no malice in calling you ZZ. It’s short, catchy, and reminds me of Zidane, or ZZ Top who have great music. If it offends you, I’ll stop (even if it does impede on my rights to free speech). Else, I’ll just use your handle (or posted name) in future.

@George;
Well, pick whatever “handle” you want, just let me know, so that I know when you are talking to me. It takes quite a bit to “offend” me…pissing me off on the other hand, now thats different.
“An ex-military guy”, I did not know that the Boy Scouts were considered military.

@ Ricsi;
Although I do not know the history between you and George, I got the impression that he really does want to hear what you have to say.
I personally look forward to hearing/reading what you, Laci, now Elle and others post here. I have to admit that I do not “get” vdx though, anyhow “attaching no importance” was a bit harsh I thought…but if that is how you feel, then that is how you feel. As I said before, I enjoy this site on the most part for I find the bantering quite entertaining.

Hey George!
Trains!? Did I hear trains? I was in a restful state when I heard mention. Model trains? What scale or gauge? O gauge or larger, I hope. I don’t like HO or talk to HO gaugers!
Goring was a big model train nut, and had a huge three rail O gauge Marklin layout up in his gigantic attic space at Karinhall. He was like a big kid at times, and loved playing with model ships and trains. He also loved his dope. I always felt that a man who likes model trains and hashish can’t be all bad!

Just askng,Zsuzsa- You are really observant and asking the right questions,but be aware many on here will try to attack/ridicule you for they can’t and will never accept the truth.

@Laszlo – Sorry to disappoint – no, not model trains. I used to work on control systems for real life train (about a year). Ricsi, Viking and I were having an ‘animated’ discussion on what went wrong during that train derailment which killed 4 people.
I knew he’d remember if I said ‘dabbling’ in trains, because he was so skeptical about the different vocations I kept bringing up!
Anyway, Ricsi had ‘inside information’ from his buddies and already had decided on the cause of the accident before the police investigation.
Viking and I had other opinions.
I was just ‘curious’ if he had any updates, since we ‘agreed’ to wait for the police investigation.
@justasking – How did you know I was in the boys scouts? But, you are right – the boys scouts aren’t military. Now, if you could just tell your garda friends…..

@ Farkas Laszlo
Very much appreciate your detailed response outlining Hungary’s history that might account for some of Hungary’s “mood” today. I did not have time to respond earlier and now that I want to respond, I can’t find your posting. Help!!!
I hope the following is not a non sequitur as I don’t have a chance to review your posting
I am very aware of the Magyars’ tragic history; foreign oppressions by the Ottoman Empire ,Austria and Russia. The 1947 Treaty of Paris was simply an added insult to injury.
Pataki is protesting the Slovak language laws. – that’s great but what happened to the EU Human Rights people? Toothless tiger syndrome? Their mandate is the protection of Human Rights and Democracy. Why are they not stepping up to the plate defending the right to speak Hungarian?
On the other hand, do injustices past and present give licence to Hungary to disregard minorities’ rights within its borders? Does it mean that political figures can spew hatred and hide behind immunity laws?
There must be a kangaroo court in Slovakia hiding behind “ legislation” to enforce language laws that contravene human rights laws.
Neither Human Rights issue nor Laws ought be like a restaurant menu where you pick and choose what appeal to you.
Why protect politicians by having immunity against libel? Why allow language laws that make a mockery of human rights?

@Laszlo – Yes, you are right. As I mentioned in the past, I have been wanting to change my name for a long while, since a few people like Visitor, Tunde, and a couple of others found it offensive. It isn’t where I come from. Anyway, I’ve settled on Curious George.
But I don’t know much about model trains, sorry. Seems like an expensive hobby to have.
Anyway, I look forward to sharing views on topics of common interest. As you know, unlike some of the ‘other’ hardcores, I’m only passing through Hungary. Seems to be a slow ride though.

PS–I never heard any more from the mysterious ‘Melinda’ and why she wanted by e-mail. A genuine admirer ( I wish ) or another childish attempt to ‘get’ to me?? I am not difficult to find,if you do not know me by now then you should LOL

TO RICSI PLEASE NOTE YOUR VIOLATION OF EU LAWS — LET’S NOT BE A HYPOCRITE OK?
European Union Directive for Combating Racism and Xenophobia (2007)
The text establishes that the following intentional conduct will be punishable in all EU Member States:
- Publicly inciting to violence or hatred , even by dissemination or distribution of tracts, pictures or other material, directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin.
- Publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising
- crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes as defined in the Statute of the International Criminal Court (Articles 6, 7 and 8) directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin, and
- crimes defined by the Tribunal of Nuremberg (Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal, London Agreement of 1945) directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin.
Member States may choose to punish only conduct which is either carried out in a manner likely to disturb public order or which is threatening, abusive or insulting.
The reference to religion is intended to cover, at least, conduct which is a pretext for directing acts against a group of persons or a member of such

@Tom
This is a crucial point you have highlighted, the Hungarians I know and grew up with were the most peaceful people I have mixed with, and sadly they are taken advantage of, History clearly highlights this it’s time to speak out and defend our right’s as Hungarians before we lose everything. Keep up your contribution in raising awareness.

I see no possibility for introduction and acceptance of “hate speech” laws you find in Austria and Germany for countries that experience Soviet occupation. One could see the problems as soon as the EP started in on it. The Soviet occupied blocks want Communist and Nazi crimes condemned equally and punish those who would deny either horror with equal severity.
This presents a big problem for the “Socialist” delegates from the former Eastern Block. Many of them have been members of Eastern Block Communist parties and many of them are guilty of crimes, some are guilty of murder or assisting murder of anti-Communist dissidents. An evenhanded “hate speech” law would apply to them also. Nyako’s past has numerous questionable dealings that should invite criminal investigation. If anyone has to worry about losing immunity is Nyako, not Molnar.
The “anti-Semitic” card has a strange way of biting those in the behind who use it to discredit others. Not being happy with Israeli and other foreign interests, obtaining Hungarian real estate below its value is not anti-Semitic. It is patriotic. Having arguments and disputes with Jews is not anti-Semitic either. In America, it cost ADL over ten million dollars to call a couple anti-Semitic over their fights with their Jewish neighbors.
I do not believe that there is anything in Molnar’s statements that could be qualified as anti-Semitic. Nyako is very lucky that he did not make these charges in America because Molnar would probably win a defamation suit against him.
Returning to “hate speech”, I consider “hate-speech” most of the anti-Hungarian comments one observes from MSZP and SZDSZ representatives and the “liberal” media.
Be careful what you wish for…

Over the past years, I have seen numerous examples but I did not store them. Curiously, collection of information, especially about people they do not like appears to be a Communist thing. I am thinking of one incident that really inflamed me.
It was an interview with Moldova, a writer from the Communist era. The Kadar reprisals came up and that 229 Hungarian patriots were executed during that period. Moldova said that Kadar acted properly when he executed these Hungarians. One of the female reporters protested that Kadar was a murderer and Moldova responded back that she was a murderer.
I believe that under a “hate crime” law treating Communist and Nazi cries equally, Moldova could be charged with inciting hatred and minimizing the suffering of those who were persecuted under the Communists.
I do not know if you can read Hungarian but if you can, you can do some research of your own and verify that Communists speak with a lot of hate about their victims.

Tom,
“anti-Hungarian” is a phrase that is repeatedly used on this site (google returns 74 hits), but I’m not clear what is means. I agree that Communism and Nazism were equally repellant regimes, but don’t understand how the Communist regime in Hungary was anti-Hungarian, other than it supported a foreign ideology and was supported by a foreign power. That has been true of most regimes in Hungary’s history, even of St. Stephen:
” In 997, his father died and a succession struggle ensued.[16] Stephen claimed to rule the Magyars by the principle of Christian divine right, while his uncle Koppány, a powerful pagan chieftain in Somogy, claimed the traditional right of seniority.[18] Eventually, the two met in battle near Veszprém and Stephen, victorious, assumed the role of Grand Prince of the Hungarians. Stephen’s victory came primarily thanks to his German retinue led by the brothers Pázmány and Hont[19]. ”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_I_of_Hungary
Do you have a more up-to-date definition of anti-Hungarian, or are you quite happy the have the founder of Christian Hungary remain an “anti-Hungarian”?

I am afraid that you missed the offending part of Moldova’s statement. Calling the female reporter a murderer was stupid and arrogant but that is not why I consider Moldova’s statement a hate crime. His statement that Kadar acted properly when he executed these Hungarians is what I consider a hate crime.
I suggest that you rephrase Moldova’s statement for the victims of Nazi crimes and see what your reaction would be to it.
However, under current Hungarian laws, Moldova did not commit a hate crime. Molnar most certainly did not, even if EU laws were applicable to Hungary. Nyako is just trying to get the attention off his criminal doings
Only recently, a young Hungarian was walking home with the Hungarian flag over his shoulder. Suddenly, he was knifed from behind by two gypsies. They stabbed his arms and his face, missing his eye by just a fraction of an inch. The gypsies were stumping on the Hungarian flag as the young Hungarian was escaping.
The Polish government is currently considering a law to punish those who would smear their culture, history and nation. Hungary needs a similar law.

Sophist,
You are right, that every regime has its opponents and supporters. However, the communist regime in Hungary 20 years ago is labeled anti-Hungarian for the following reasons:
The majority of people in Hungary opposed it not supported, and these people are sill among the living and have vivid memories.
The communist regime applied widespread physical persecution and imprisonment of those they believed to be opposing figures or different thinkers, the so called “enemies of the working-class”. No credible legal process was necessary, and the accused were not given option for legal self defense. The casualties of the communists are just much too high. The regime before, the Horthy regime, was in sharp contrast with the communists, and the overwhelming majority of people supported it.
The communist system destroyed the social structure of society, distorted the psycho of the population by teaching lies, denying or distorting national and world history and outlawing or persecuting Christian religions. The effects of these are still quite obvious among ordinary people. One of them is the lack of solidarity, which is in sharp contrast with one’s western European experiences.

com-FG,
I agree with everything you write about Communism, most cogently for my argument:
“The communist regime applied widespread physical persecution and imprisonment of those they believed to be opposing figures or different thinkers, the so called “enemies of the working-class”.”
There are perhaps some good historical reasons for mistaking the “enemies of the working class” with “Hungarians”: if you hang on to Werbőczy’s idea that only the nobility were part of the Hungarian nation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Hungary#Names
Otherwise the consequences of Communism were pretty much the same for all the peoples that suffered it, perhaps the Russians or the Chinese worst of all. To describe it as anti-Hungarian is to misrepresent it, unlike Nazism which was antisemetic.

Who’s to say that the gypsies that your wife encountered didn’t in fact just want to come in for a visit

Sophist,
From a historian’s point of view the more correct term to describe communism might be inhuman or a system that was against all mankind. For a common people however, the question arises as follows: Did communism supported Hungarian self-awareness and supported healthy development of society? No. Did communist wanted people to forget their national identities and make them unite under the communist flag? Yes. Then it definitely was not pro-Hungarian, but just the opposite, anti-Hungarian.
British people for instance called Nazi Germany anti-British. According to your reasoning however, despite of the war, it was not anti-British, it was simply anti-human, similarly to communism. You may be right.
I would advise caution, when bringing up examples from the middle ages, and trying to portray them as relevant when evaluating recent history. I am sure neither the communist nor their opposition studied Werbőczy’s ideas for examples.

Good customer service is so hard to find nowadays.

Sophist,
Here is the link you requested:
MEGKÉSELTÉK, A MAGYAR ZÁSZLÓT MEGTAPOSTÁK
http://www.magyarhirlap.hu/hirek.html?r_id=5&hir_id=180607
Egy magyar zászlóval hazafelé tartó férfit megtámadtak és összeszurkáltak október 23-án éjjel, Angyalföldön. Elmondása szerint a fiatalember a budapesti megemlékezésekről éppen hazafelé tartott . Az áldozatra, mint ő maga a csatorna riporterének fogalmazott, “két cigány támadt”.
I am surprised that you live in Hungary and had to ask for the link. It was well covered. You also ask for statistics and if you live in Hungary, you should know that the current Communist government only documents cases where Gypsies are victims. Other sources that document the endless list of crimes by Gypsies against Hungarians are labeled racist. In my opinion, the current one sided reporting is anti-Hungarian and racist. Maybe some of these crazy reporting rules will change after the election. I suspect many things will change after the next election.

Tom, com-FG
thanks for the links.
I agree with you about the lack of government statistics; it’s stupid, not least because it is self-defeating. They think they’re protecting the gypsy community, in fact they are allowing people’s imagination about the scale of gypsy criminality get all out of sync with reality.
Gypsies or no gypsies, Hungary is a comparatively peaceful place to live.
I would expect gypsies to commit more crimes than ‘white’ Hungarians they are an underclass, and underclasses are more criminal everywhere.
There is however one problem with ethnic reporting of crime in Hungary. Ethnic identities are much more fluid here than in the UK. Two thirds of gypsies declare themselves as Hungarian in the census – why should they do otherwise in the police station? In Hungary, generally “cigány’ is something people call other people rather than something you call yourself.
I don’t see gypsies in Hungary as a phenotypically marked group, though certainly on average they are darker skinned. The Managing director of the large US affiliate I worked for was darker skinned than Strojka(sp?) nobody called the boss a gypsy, and when I saw a picture of Strojka, I thought he was white. It’s behaviour that defines a gypsy not skin-tone.
In many ways, I think the whole discussion of gypsies as a race is the imposition of Western European/North American obsessions with race on to Hungary’s socio-economic reality.

One of the cops I worked with used to work in one of the rougher parts of Miskolc.I asked him why he asked to transfer to the police school and he said “I just got sick of living in fear for my life every day.” I on the other hand, although having a few scary moments, really didn’t have any major problems to speak of. Perhaps that’s partly because I’m pretty boring and don’t go on the pubcrawl or late night partying etc. I also have to recognise though that for most of my time, I was surrounded by cops, and that if anything, it was THEM that gave me scary moments. I wasn’t living there long term and wasn’t living in areas where I was confronted with ongoing issues. I think like most places, Hungary has areas that are more safe and less safe. I will say something though, that when I was staying in District IV, I was struck with how many houses and high fences with barbed wire on the top. …nothing profound, just observations.

Tom,
“Rape, murder, torture and stealing of everything Hungarian farmers produce has reached epidemic proportions”
Taking a look at the statistics available on Nationmaster,
http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php
it is true that your chances of being murdered in Hungary are now 50% higher than in the UK (0.0205 v. 0.014 per ’000) but you are still 2.5 times more likely to be raped, 6.6 times more likely to be assaulted, and 4.4 times more likely to be a robbed in the UK. As I said Hungary is a comparatively peaceful place to live.
My wife’s godparents live in the countryside and have recently moved to another part of the same village to get away from their gypsy neighbours. They weren’t raped, murdered or assualted, but you could argue the continual small thefts of crops, tools and livestock from their land and could be construed as a form of torture.
Until I receive credible evidence from elsewhere I will not beleive that Hungary is suffering an “epidemic” of crime, gypsy or otherwise.

Olga,
In the US, there are no laws banning what you call “hate speech”. There are hate crime laws on the books and I do not agree with those because they are not applied evenhanded. If a crime is committed, the punishment should be fitting the crime. I do not like laws that value some people more than others.
I read again the leading article and still maintain that Molnar did not say anything that was not true and he did not say for “inciting hatred, prejudice, and violence against a particular group of people.” He is certainly no coward and if anything a very brave man for speaking the truth knowing that he would be smeared and accused of things that his statement had noting to do with.
There may be a day when the Hungarian Constitution will have to conform to EU laws but before it happened, I expect those EU laws change a lot. Nyako’s statement that “similar sentiments had led to the Holocaust” is libelous. Hungarians wanting to preserve their economics, cultural and political independence from outside forces has nothing to do with the “Holocaust”. It is a lame, too often used argument to shuts up those who want to be masters of their own country.
I expect Jobbik to be the second largest party in the Hungarian Parliament after the 2010 election and if things do not improve, we could see Jobbik winning the election in 2014. In the leftist ultra-liberal media, Jobbik is describes as extremist but I disagree with it. I believe that there is no such thing as an extremist Jobbik when Lendvai, the head of the ruling party was a high-ranking Communists official under the murderous Kadar, regime. Lendvai is well known for calling anyone who supports a pro-Hungarian position a Nazi. It is a laughable charge coming from a Communist.
If you want to see “hate speech”, look to the Communists.

Olga,
We will just have to agree to disagree on Molnar’s and Nyako’s statements. We hold completely opposite opinions.
Regarding the Communists in Fidesz, there are some but they are truly former Communists in their actions and positions whereas MSZP and SZDSZ still supports the spirit of Rakosi and Kadar terror. MSZP is the direct descendant of MSZMP and they got, I do not know how, all the property of former MSZMP. There is no doubt that MSZP is a Communist party with one less letter in its name
Orban and Kover were minor functionaries in the Communist youth movement. It is not something I approve but one has to make choices between evil and much lesser evil.
If you want a Hungarian party with absolutely no filth of the past, you should pick Jobbik. They do not tolerate anyone with Communist past and no MSZP members. There was a time when SZDSZ and MDF were pretty decent but they are also dirty now. I believe that Jobbik accepts people who were SZDSZ or MDF members before certain dates. Orban and Kover could not qualify for Jobbik membership

Cináed,
“I was comparing crime data for Hungary Vs Western (non-European) countries”
I know you have better access to criminolgy stats than me, do you have any thoughts on Hungary’s analomously high murder rate?
Is there any break down – domestic violence, murdered in the course of other crimes etc. – or any analysis of the victims (Roma/Non-Roma split)
Will visit new site – are you no-longer based in Hungary? I liked the Anon handle reminded me of reading 2000AD, Judge Dred – I am the Law etc.

Sophist,
No Japanese leader was bragging publicly about buying up Hungary, only Peres did. Some of the real estate dealings of current government are treasonous. Molnar and every Hungarian who wants to protect Hungary’s economic, political and cultural independence have good reason to worry.
The antisemite card is very tiresome. I do not even know what it means other than that it is used to smear people Communists do not like.
Ask not whether I am antisemitic — ask only whether I am right. –John ‘Birdman’ Bryant
That is all that matters. Everything else is slander. If Nyako made the same charges against Molnar in the US, Molnar would have a good chance of winning a libel suit because bringing the antisemite smear, the Nazis and all that is just bogus character assassination.

Tom,
“No Japanese leader was bragging publicly about buying up Hungary, only Peres did”
So what should we believe, bragging politicians or the figures?
I can’t find more up to date FDI figures than 2007, but they say Isreal has a long way to go before it catches up with those giants of International trade – Canada or Spain.
http://english.mnb.hu/engine.aspx?page=mnben_statisztikai_idosorok&ContentID=11138

Olga,
Did you se Vona’s statement that 2/3 of Hungarians are Jobbik supporters but the do not know it yet? I believe him correct and it is just a question of time before Jobbik will be strong enough to govern but in 2010, Jobbik will probably finish second behind Fidesz. That will be a huge accomplishment considering that Jobbik gets only hostile TV and press coverage. Jobbik is the target of hate campaign and it seems to be helping Jobbik more than hurting.
You misunderstand by comment about some Fidesz leaders who were minor officials in the Communist youth movement. They denounced and continue to denounce the Communists, which indicates to me that they are on the right path. I prefer Jobbik but Fidesz is not Communist and the majority of Hungarians will not be voting for Communists when they vote for Fidesz. I will be fine with Fidesz for the time being.
We have a disagreement over who is spewing hate. In my opinion, it is Nyako and not Molnar who is spewing hate. Molnar is looking out for Hungarian interests while Nyako is trying to get the attention off his questionable dealing.

Olga,
“Interesting – glad you don’t think communists are lurking behind every bush. Bajna sounds good to me, but no surprise, right?”
Who is Bajna?
“Hopefully this will be my last question to you concerning Mr. Molnar
Just for the sake of argument, let’s say everything Mr. Molnar ever said is a 100% true.
1. Can he prove it? How?”
I do not see why Molnar should prove anything? Some people believe it to be true, others deny it.
“2) What purpose did it serve beside inciting hate unless he could help the alleged victims ?”
Molnar did not incite hatred against anyone. His critics are. Recognition of the source of Hungary’s economic, political and social problems is the first step in correcting them. In the medical field, it is often more difficult to isolate the virus than to find the antidote.
“3. If he can not come up with proof that stands up in Court, should he say it and hide behind immunity?”
Molnar is not hiding behind anything. Molnar is not obligated to take note of Nyako’s unfounded accusations sprinkled with the usual hate mantra. Nyako will soon have to answer to criminal charges, real criminal charges. His sensation seeking smear campaign against a patriotic Hungarian will not save him.
“Easy questions to answer.”
Now you have it.
“Scary what you said about JOBBIK – I wonder how Hungary would be viewed by the rest of the Western world if they ever won an election? How would it effect tourism, trade, foreign investment? How would the EU look at Hungary?“
I believe that by the time Jobbik takes over the government in Hungary, the rest of the world or at least a good part of it will have moved in Jobbik’s direction. Hungary will do just fine but thank you for your concern.
“I haven’t checked it out and I don’t have time today but I am going to find out how Haider’s party is doing in Austria since his death.”
The circumstances of his death are highly suspicious.
“From what I am reading, most European countries ( not the countries that were under Communist rule) are in fear of Muslim birth rates in their respective countries and not overly concerned about Jews and gypsies.
True or False?”
It depends on whose ox is being gored. Hungary’s problems are unique to Hungary and to some other former Soviet occupied countries. I would not want Muslims or anyone else to take over Hungary any more than Jews or Gypsies. Why should anyone take over Hungary? Hungary is for Hungarians!

Hi Tom
I am not sure what criminal charges you are referring to regarding Nyako – is there more to the story ? If he physically assaulted Molnar, he should be charged accordingly. R Libel: Nyako
has evidence of hate speeches in Molnar’s statements. What evidence Molnar does Molnar have? Even if he did want to sue Nyako, would Nyako not be immune as well? Anyway, moving right along – Why does Mr. Molnar not “cross the floor” and team up with JOBBIK ?- btw, is that allowed? (Belinda Stronach, a Liberal Member of Parliament crossed the floor in our Parliament and joined the Conservatives.) Can Molnar do that?
I looked up Jorg Haider – I limited my interest to 5 minutes, I learned that Stefan Petzner allegedly his gay partner, is still vice chair of the party , the Chair is Joseph Bucher. Nothing about “suspicious death” – no doubt I’d find it on the Internet. So if Petzner is a “liar” why is he holding an important the vice chair role. Huh?
Vandorlo totally shocked me with his posting that Krisztina Morvai had a Jewish husband – I asked him if the kids were his, but he hasn’t replied yet; I hope not, for the kids’ sakes. Not looking good for them if they are not “pure Hungarian” if JOBBIK wins as per your predictions.
I meant Gordon Bajnai before. Just a typo.
Maybe I have voting rights as I have a Hungarian Passport – I should vote for him.

@ Vandorlo
If Ms. Morvai did not have children, your imaginary morning coffee routine would be hilarious. However a variation of that has to be true and under the circumstances it’s just sad. Those poor kids.
I looked at the Stormfront link – you gotta be kidding. Is Falcon2488 for real? No one, on this website alluded to JOBBIK being 80% Jewish or something like that. The rest of the comments are not much better.
I am sorry about Bajnai not running. He sounds like one of the “good guys”
I checked out Eva Balogh’s website – her BA is from Ottawa. Must be Canadian. I’ll check into her further “Hungarian Spectrum” looks very intresting. I only had time for K.M. – I am afraid I am rather obsessed with her, I will lose interest as soon as I put the puzzle together.
My Dad died on November 1, 2005 – All Saints Day is very special for my family.

Viking,
I have no idea what you are trying to say. You are not addressing anything I said but reacting to your interpretations of what you claim I said. These are “Straw Man” arguments and I have no interest in them.

Law,
This is the first “Viking” post I read

What are you smoking? What special interest group is paying you to make such absurd observations?

Olga,
I let you wrestle with your pro and anti-homosexual feelings. In good time, you will work it out. Morvai has done considerable work for minority rights, including the rights of homosexuals to live and work without discrimination and fear. Supporting minority rights, homosexual, Jewish, or Gypsy does not mean that the minorities should be able to impose their values on the majority. The Palestinians of Gaza would love to change places with the minorities n Hungary. The line should be drawn where too much power for the minorities works to destroy the majority. Today, that is the situation in Hungary and the rest of Europe. Ii has to change it will change.
“Do you see anything wrong with Morvai talking against Jews while being married to one and while her kids are 1/2 Jewish ? How must her kids feel when they hear their Mother?
It would not be right for my children to be 1/2 black while I am busy attending KKK meetings.”
Why should not Morvai’s children be able to grow up as patriotic Hungarians? I do not want to change your very wrong conceptions about Jobbik because you already made up your mind. Morvai and Jobbik are not anti-Jewish. They are against any outside interests that threatens to Hungary’s economic, political and social independence. Those Jews who work with Israel against Hungarian interests are traitors. I would hope that the majority of Jews living in Hungary are not.
Last, we forget, Jobbik has not harmed anyone but those who attack Jobbik, Lendvai and Co. of MSZP, have the blood of many thousands of Hungarians on their collective hands.

@ Vandorlo
I will see the “Fidesz Jew ” one day – I am now engrossed in Eva Balogh’s blogs. I first heard about her from you. Her blogs are organized really well for my needs – all about Hungarian issues and the individual “players” – I know she has a BA from Ottawa and post grad degrees from the US including Yale but I can’t figure out where she lives now. Do you know?
@ Tom
“I let you wrestle with your pro and anti-homosexual feelings.” I am not sure if you were joking or not, but if you were it’s a cute comment.
About Morvai ‘s children being proud Hungarian – absolutely. Perhaps you could amend the 1935 Nuremeberg Law that makes them Jewish.
I could not believe my eyes, but Vandorlo posted a link on this thread by some organization called
“Stormfront” – they claim that JOBBIK is infiltrated by Jews. Take a look. Perhaps the other 20% are Romas?. – there was no mention of that, just a thought.
About minorities not being not being able to impose their values on the majority – no argument from me. Nor should majorities give up a custom fearing minorities would be offended. A couple of years ago Toronto politicians wanted to call the huge Christmas tree in front of City Hall and Christmas trees in various court buildings a “holiday tree” as not to offend minorities. Enough to make me throw up. After I recovered, I realized these idiots only accomplished a feeling of resentment against minorities.
What values are minorities are trying to impose in Hungary?

The Polish government is currently considering a law to punish those who would smear their culture, history and nation. Hungary needs a similar law.
Tom at October 28, 2009 4:36 PM
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nothing Molnar said could be characterized as “unsubstantiated allegations against a minority group”
Tom at October 29, 2009 8:35 AM
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Molnar did not say anything that was not true and he did not say for “inciting hatred, prejudice, and violence against a particular group of people”
Tom at October 29, 2009 4:02 PM
I do not see why Molnar should prove anything?
…
Molnar did not incite hatred against anyone
Tom at October 30, 2009 5:48 PM
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My opinion is that Molnar did not engage is hate speech but Nyako did.
Tom at October 31, 2009 9:12 AM
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You seem to have no problem hating Gypsies and any law protecting minorities, but you want a law protecting the majority, the “Hungarians” from all these bad people.
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Jobbik would not object if they all joined Jobbik but that would not be our decision.
Tom at October 31, 2009 9:12 AM
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“our decision”?
You seem to pretend to speak from an official Jobbik position, if so, why not declare that?
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I have no idea what you are trying to say
Tom at October 31, 2009 9:23 AM
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That you have problems understanding is of course one reason why you joined Jobbik and act as their new (in)official spokesperson on this site.
===
I saw some of the “short-haired revolutionaries from 2006″ doing the only thing they can do on Sports1 live earlier.

The usual drivel about nazis, racists, far right organisations (Jobbik may, or may not, qualify for this tag?)posted on this site. Any politician or mouthpiece aspiring to represent the people of any country using nazi propoganda and citing Hitler as a role model should be locked up. It is quite acceptable to hold right wing views without bringing in the goose-stepping brigade all the time.
Hungary has severe economic problems and needs a whole raft of reforms to enable it to compete in a fierce world market. Unfortunately our politicians fall into two categories: old commies and closet nazis.
The real issues affecting Hungay’s social and economic life get ignored.
Gypsies are definitely a problem beyond a shadow of a doubt. Most are ill-educated, incapable of getting employed, and tied-in to a culture that,
like Hungary, seems incapable of change.
Many young Hungarians find work abroad and this leaves a “vacuum” in the villages and cities for
any real advancement or progress to be made because of the lack of any technolgical or management skills.
Most of the councils are out of touch, or corrupt, or both. The MSZPs woeful track record speaks for itself!
Why neo-nazism, jews, and gypsies, get blamed for every evil/ill in good old Magyarorszag – I just don’t know?

@Sophist: The stormfront website is quite something.
I thought I was doing well cooking up some crazy
conspiracy theories until I picked up this thread on
their site: “Konspiracios teoriam a Jobbikrol” (My
conspiracy theory about Jobbik) http://bit.ly/27R8Gm
Hope your Hungarian is coming along. It’s worth
reading, its hilarious – and deeply depressing.

@Viking: Always healthy to see the ‘real’ ‘Hungarians’ fighting over the meaning of ‘real’ and ‘Hungarian’.
Something you said a while back interested me about how you thought Jobbik stood to lose out on the Fidesz campaigning towards the election. Have I understood you well?
I don’t see that happening, for lots of reasons, but I’d be interested to know how you think this is going to pan out.
I imagine MSZP will only have some poor stooge to set up to lose in the interim in place of Bajnai for the elections, but do you not think Fidesz’s are so desperate to keep Molnar simply to hold on to the proportion of their voters that would defect to Jobbik? Although only 12% are currently saying they wil vote for Jobbik, the polls indicate 30% are sympathetic and strongly welcome their presence. That can’T be good for Fidesz – let alone the country.

continued:
5) MSZP can chose that it is better to have a strong Jobbik and a Fidesz that cannot get a qualified majority and therefore, probably, ruin Orban’s plan of being President of Hungary, but with a new Constitution that would move the power from the Parliament to the President.
Jobbik, who actually are vivid Orban/Fidesz-haters, would probably block that.
Instead Orban/Fidesz will have to cut some deals with MSZP to keep Jobbik out of the Government, not to tarnish Hungary’s international reputation.
Orban has probably not forgotten how it was to have MIEP in the Government and that only lasted for 2 years.
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We should never forget that the reason Fidesz and Jobbik has so high % is that the core MSZP-voters have stayed at home since September 2006.
It is unlikely the will stay at home in April 2010 and they will have to chose between the lesser of the 2 evils – MSZP and Fidesz.
The paradox can be that a vote against Jobbik, can be a vote on Fidesz, for the really disillusioned MSZP-voters, if MSZP cannot find Mr Proper.

How nice, being PC means that you cant say the truth and you
could only represent communist and liberal values… Give all your
belongings to the New York -Telaviv axis of evil and they will wash
you down from the map! I think if the so called “elighted” west
loves gypos that much we should start to “export them… LOL)
Honestly the only problem with the Holocaust it did not went
successful enough!

@ Vandorlo and Viking
Re: “The paradox can be that a vote against Jobbik, can be a vote on Fidesz, for the really disillusioned MSZP-voters, if MSZP cannot find Mr Proper.”
Is it possible that MSZP supporters (the ones who would like MSZP to win) will vote for FIDESZ holding their noses ,for no other reason than to vote against JOBBIK? Will Hungary engage in tactical voting? Slightly different scenario than paragraph 1 above.
Very confusing about the definition of “real Hungarian” – I gather my being born in Hungary means nothing – my kids are mongrels. Jaj!
Until I read some postings, I thought Viking’s children would be considered 100% Hungarian since they were born in Hungary (But then black kids born in Hungary would qualify – I guess we can’t have that) The fact thse kids were born in Hungary, does that make them at least MORE Hungarian than my kids? Technically all these offsprings have 50% Hungarian blood in their veins Viking and his wife contribute to the Hungarian economy – We never have. So I can only hope those kids get brownie points on the mongrel scale.
Never knew I had to be a “Patriotic Hungarian” to apply for that passport. No mention on the form. I applied because I was eligible and my kids could work in Europe if they chose to. I was always proud to tell people I was Hungarian but the way I define “proud” and the way defined around here is vastly different.
If I became a JOBBIK supporter today, would I qualify as a “real Hungarian”?

@ Robi
I learned long ago that nothing is “simple”
Since I was a child and left Hungary in ’56, I have spoken Hungarian to my parents almost every day unless I was away. So I can speak Hungarian.
I do understand the sentence “Nyelvében él a Nemzet” – but I don’t think you would agree that it includes Roma who speak Hungarian. Am I wrong?
Unfortunately, I can’t understand Hungarian newspapers – if I could I would not be reading English websites. I know if I moved to BP today, I would be completely up to speed within 6 months.
Vandorlo and Viking have a much better grasp of the language and the country then I do, they support the economy, and they both passionate about its political scene.
More than I can say for myself, yet I think I am more Hungarian than they are for no other reason than being born there. I have documents to prove that my parents, grandparents and great-grand-parents were all born in BP – so I am fortunate that not even the treaty of Trianon made my Hungarian citizenship questionable. (Trianon in my opinion was a huge disgrace and travesty of justice and it’s very sad that Hungarians are denied Hungarian citizenship because of the treaty.)

After reading the last posts (and also some on other topics) I am really glad that I don’t have to be a “Real Hungarian” to live here.
Like I said before, in Heviz nobody cares…
We have so many foreigners and “mixed couples”, it does’t matter.
Sometimes it is funny, just to give you an example:
A few weeks ago we had several visitors at the same time, some from my Schwab family in Germany and also my wife’s son and his girlfriend. We went to a restaurant and talked a lot. So I spoke to my wife in German, her son in English (which he speaks very well, working with computers) and with my family I used the Schwab dialect, while my wife talked to them in German and to her son in Hungarian…
People at the next table looked on strangely, trying to decipher, what was going on…

@wolfi: Your experience is like my own. Only here on this website and in the minority Jobbik circles (and then not 100% of them) does this attempt to polarise and divide matter.
The people I know here are Finnish, Italian, German, Spanish, Greek, Polish, Russian, Japanese, Norwegian etc… as well as all the English speaking countries. Our common language is Hungarian.
There is a couple I have known for years that show how much these fools like Beju (Robi) know nothing about what Hungary is like these days. One is Italian, the other Finnish, they have three children that were all born here. Their common language is Hungarian. Obviously the kids also speak their parents languages too as well as quite a few more these days. All of them play a central role in their community and their community unquestioningly welcomes them.

@ Vandorlo
Wow! I have been reading and posting on this website for a month or so – Luckily, I have not “met” people like Robi. I assume they are just an embarrassing minority
I would never respond to him again , I regret doing it once – just not my style
I considered Law simply having -diametrically opposite ideas from mine, which is fine. I found his postings informative as a representative of the ultra-right wing in Hungary.
I suspect ( would like it confirmed) that JOBBIK would welcome Tom and Law but would want to distance themselves from Robi – I don’t need to explain to you why. Right or Wrong?
Wolfi – so you are a family of mongrels as well?
I have a “Schwab” question – but later , I have to leave now. I gather you know Van Halen’s son is also Wolfi . Great band.

@Robi: Akkor nem igaz-e, hogy a magyar faj keveredése egy polyhibrid, korcs nép? Olvastad el már a “Kik vogymuk” című cikket a mostani HVG-n?

@Robi: “Magyar is stil be written with a capital M”
Hahahahahahahahahaha

@van
I know that the judeobolshevik Hungarian gramar books, what you
“obbiomente” use writes even God with a g, but it does make it any
different! LOL.

@van
just as I said before the judeobolshevik version of Hungarian. LOL
I’m a follower of the old religion I do not celebrate a birth of that
jew D)))) I’ll drink some westie blood instead)