Yess, why would you advertise an Hungarian newspaper on some
slavic dialect? D)

Vesszen Trianon!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30QNr3xWYHE

How is it that when you are in Canada, you have to look at signs in French or bilingual signs in both English and French? (Besides, the French Canadians are always threatening to secede from Canada!) In the US, Spanish language billboards and signs are everywhere, and banning them would be considered unconstitutional? Public offices over ther have signs in both English and Spanish.

Obviously, the Hungarians in Slovakia anen't living under such a tolerant govt as in Canada or the US. What they want to do about it is up to them, and will have to be seen.

Maybe they should go to Quebec and learn from the French speakers how to get balls and stand up for themselves. The French there will tell them:

1)you can't limit the use of our language through your Anglo laws.

2)If you do, we will seccede.

And they mean it too.

Laci;
Actually, Quebec may not be such a good example. They had passed some Laws a few years back where it was illegal to have any English language signs posted. The reasoning was that they were trying to preserve French language and culture. Just a couple of weeks ago, I believe it was the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that Quebec has to ease up on it's language law (given one year in fact to revamp it)for they were forcing Immigants to learn French and not giving them equal opportunity to learn English (especially in the school system). As you know, Canada has 2 official languages both French and English, (whilst the Quebec Seperatists try to ignore the English part) As for them seperating...never happen, Canada just throws more money their way and they shut up.

Hello Zsuzsa,

Then it is even more extreme an example what you say. Suppose the Hungarians in Slovakia said no to even bilingual signs? Suppose they said NO to Slovak sings in their regions, like the French Canadians? How would Bratislava respond to THAT show of balls?

As for throwing money at the problem; Slovaks don't have the money to throw at the Hungarians that the Canadian govt. spent to keep the French speakers mollified. (And I'm not sure they would want to anyway)Unlike the Canadian govt; they are acting like they want no compromise at all. A position of no compromise is not likely to produce the same result as in Canada.

This is a high stakes poker game between two nationalities who have linguistic, historical and territorial differences. Nothing anybody says on this website is going to change that. The cards are going to fall where they are going to fall.

Anither thing Zsuzsa,

This ain't Canada.

@Laci;

I know that Slovakia is not Canada and the situations are polar opposite, it was not my example. I was just try to say that it is easy to have "balls" when you know that you will not be crushed like a bug in the country where you reside if you push back. I highly doubt the minority Hungarians in Slovakia have that same feeling.

Z

@ Laci;

OOppss -I just saw that I wrote "justkidding" and not "justasking", I don't know why I did that. Anyhow, the above post is from me Zsuzsa.

Hello Zsuzsa,

There is a process of history that is going to play out on this issue. We don't control it, and we don't know where it will lead.

If someone tried to impose the equivalent of the Slovak language law on the French Canadians, they would be voting is a secession referendum. But then you and I know that Bratislava is not Ottowa.

What disappoints me is tha lack of Hungatian voices from Slovakia on this website. I wish we could hear from them. Ultimately it is up to them what they want to do.

@ Laci;

Your right, Bratislava is not Ottawa. That being said, I really do believe that Canadians would not even consider such an outrageous language law even though Quebec has the capacity to make ones blood boil.

In regards to the lack of Hungarians from Slovakia making comments on this site, I wonder if it is out of fear from being "located". The past few days, I have seen peoples locations being "revealed" and I can understand how some can become paranoid of being "found out" and possibly being targeted/punished.

I do agree with you though, I would love to hear directly from them or from friends/family of people from these areas in regards to what exactly is going on there. Was Elle not in this area? What happened to her/him?

Hello Zsuzsa,

The result of such a language law can serve to drive out the Hungarians in Slovakia and make them feel like they have to emigrate, a result I think not unwelcone to the Slovaks. No doubt they would prefer that we all leave.

What if the Hungarians were to publicly demonstrate against such a law? What if a Hungarian would refuse to obey it? What if someone says NO to a 5000 Euro fine for speaking Hungarian, saying it isn't right, or doesn't have the money? Then what happens? Do they get beat up and /or sent to prison? (How many posters here have 5000 Euros that they could spare for no good reason? My guess is not many.)

What would the Slovak police, courts and justice arms do if the Hungarians up there protested and just said, screw your law, your fines? Would they get beat up, sent to jail? What is the state of freedom of speech in Slovakia?

We'll see where all this leads. I'm watching.

Hello Laci;

In your opinion, do you think the Hungarians in Slovakia possess the strength to stand up for themselves against this law? Could you actually see it happening?
I ask you these questions for it is foreign to me to have a country "target" it's own people in such a obvious/calculated manner. I recognize that this is happening, it's just I can not comprehend HOW the Slovakian Government has been able/allowed to get away with it.

HOW the Slovakian Government has been able/allowed to get away with it.
justasking at November 9, 2009 7:29 AM
---
Well, as I written before. Slovakia of today is the wet dream of all 'Nationalists'. This is what you can expect when 'Nationalism' rules.
The deliberate exclusion of certain minorities, that is the essence of 'Nationalism', the need to purify the 'majority' from these 'unwanted elements and influence'.
Historically we have seen different waves of this, for different 'Nationalisms' in the region.
Same old, just in a new format, but the underlying evil is the ugly face of 'Nationalism', that one group is better than another.

Viking raises a good point that nationalism in one place is likely to inspire nationalism in other places as well...and furthermore, that you can't really scream bloody murder at the conduct of someone else because of the outworking of their nationalist tendencies, when you have also expressed a clear desire to behave in a similar fashion. What worries me is that it becomes a game of oneupmanship and before you know it, countries are cutting off diplomatic relationships and closing borders.

To Justasking, Viking and Cinead,

Hello friends. I just want to say that the language law issue in Slovakia is not at all unprecendented in Europe. Not at all; in fact it's an old story and many examples of it can be found no only in Europe but throughout the world.

Any time you have so many linguistic groups interspersed and crowded into a region, where it is not easy to draw a neat dividing line between them, and where there are competing territorial claims, you are going to get problems. Lots of problems.

Examples: forced Germanisation of Poles under the Kaiser, Poland forcing polish on Ukrainians in the 20's and 30's, forced Magyarisation in the 19th century, Serbian forced on the Albanians, The Indian govt forcing Hindi on all India (there are 14 major language groups there, and these measures caused riots!) The English forcing english on the Irish etc etc.

These sort of things usually (but not always) backfire against those imposing them. If anything, they often serve to raise nationalist tensions rather than reduce them.

The Anglo Saxon nations, like Canada, Australia and the US, to date have the best experience at getting people to drop their native languages and opt for the dominant language and culture. I think to a large extent it is because the economic opportunities there give great incentive to assimilate. I don't see us having much luck at duplicating that in our part of Europe. Here, the danger festers.

Hi Farkas Laszlo and friends,
I just discovered a very simple solution to our Hungarian cultural and Language issues, if we could just get everyone together to do this ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6aFh-oTn-g

Hey Law

Following you example, I shall post (cut and paste)
another profound idea.

Az a stram,az a stram,kinek kocka feje van,kinek kocka feje van.Az a stram,az a stram,kinek kocka feje van,kinek kocka feje van.Lám az enyém lám az enyém ovális,Mégsem vagyok a babámnak normális.(mert)Az a stram,az a stram,kinek kocka feje van,kinek kocka feje van.

Let me guess - you have blue eyes and a square head.

I knew it!

Yes, perhaps a few drinks could solve a lot of things and bring people together. This bystander is staying out of the majority of this discussion and supports the idea of people of differing political stripes getting together and having a few drinks and talking through disagreements.

However no one yet has really touched on the topic of whether hate-speech directed at entire GROUPS of (ie "innocent") people SHOULD be engaged like ordinary debate, ie protected in the same way as political speech, or whether this makes the mistake of attempting to engage in debate when actually the goal is "incitement" to indirectly attempt to cause the target of the hate to suffer real and actual consequences. Historically speaking minority targets of hate/incitement HAVE suffered real pain and death/expulsion etc. and I wonder how readers on this site feel about this distinction.

Put another way, I wonder if there has been any conversation on these threads that address the EU's unique "genocide denial/minority baiting" laws and whether anyone feels that these laws are acceptable because of the implicit threat implied by the attempted incitement/de-legitimization etc.

On a related note -- if the goal of incitement is to case 'extra-legal' punishment of the targeted minorities/classes, should 'extra-legal' means of pointing out the True Identities of the loudmouths be considered 'fair game'?

Just curious -- since EU is unique in having these laws, I am curious...

@ Law;

Cute! I haven't sang that song in years! Were these friends of your?

@Olga;
That was a funny spin on that song. Where did you get that or did you make that up?

@ Laci;
See, I told you a solution can be found to resolve the Slovakian language law issue if we all just put our heads together! Get the entire country shit-faced, teach them the words to "Hej Dunarol"

OOpppss Part 2;

Record them all singing in Hungarian and simply blackmail them if they dare enforce this discriminitory law. Simple yet effective.

Hi Justasking
Kool huh :) Why complicate the matter as you mentioned, awsome solution! What a great reality show that wouold make :))) Not!!

@ Zoltan

Your article concluded :"What I would like to know, however, is the reasoning behind why a product clearly marketed toward a Hungarian-language audience should advertise itself in Slovakian?"

I don't think the point is the target audience.

The "Slovak language police" have a disgustingly unfair law in place - therefore they are looking for ways to prosecute under their "controversial new language law" - I read somewhere that even the Slovak politicians are not clear of wtf the legislation really means and how the courts would interpret completely ambiguous muddled clauses.

In my opinion, it's the "language police" trying to find a violation - The lack of Slovaks reading Szabad Ujsag is totally irrelevant. Being vindictive is the name of the game

@justasking

I have an amazing memory for totally useless information. While in Hungary, I heard that song "az a strum" right after I heard the real song. So when I saw the video, I just put the first 3 words on a google search, cut and pasted.

FL: I can't speak for other Anglo-Saxon countries, but I know that you're right to an extent.It is expected that people speak a relative level of English when they come here...and now they even have to do a 'citizenship test' on basic things like our national plant, what our flag looks like, and where our capital really is...lots of people get that wrong. After that, however, what language you speak is really up to you, and whether or not the places you go can speak it too. We have no laws against cultural communities, and in fact public expressions of culture are welcome as long as they don't express values that conflict with the greater community's eg: repression of women, throwing molotov cocktails etc. Even in dealing with govt agencies, one can request an interpreter in one's home language if required. Today, the second most common language spoken here (after English) is Mandarin Chinese. There are entire suburbs where it is possible to not even hear English. Actually, I was on a train a couple of weeks ago, and heard at least five different languages being spoken, none of which were English.I think there is nothing wrong with expecting people to learn the official language of a country at least to whatever degree an individual is capable (Hungarian is HARD), but beyond that, legislating AGAINST a language being spoken seems extreme.Mind you, I come from a different mindset, and don't know the text of the Slovak law.

Law and Olga- you two kill me! Both of you contributed something that I enjoyed and was very amused by!

The song reminds of a Romanian man I knew years ago who was from Translyvania. He was in his 60's, but he confessed to me a lifelong infatuation with a Hungarian girl in his grade school class that continued all his life. He learned the words to that song in her memory.

Sex appeal can work wonders in breaking down ethnic barriers! Too bad we don't have a pop culture industry that would have crossover and global appeal. Come up with a Hungarian version of the Spice Girls, send them on a tour of the neighboring countries, and see what happens!

Well done you two!

Cinead- what the Anglo nations seem to excel at is getting the children of immigrants to accept English and assimilate. It's true they don't force people to change language- they don't need to!

FL: Yes, I agree with you there. I think Singapore has an interesting language policy. There, the official language is actually Malay, however, English is compulsory to learn and is the main language of communication. Also, it is compulsory to learn your 'mother' tongue, whatever that is depending on your ethnicity. So, as a general rule, most Singaporeans are at least bilingual, with many speaking three or more.

FL,

"The Anglo Saxon nations, like Canada, Australia and the US, to date have the best experience at getting people to drop their native languages and opt for the dominant language and culture. I think to a large extent it is because the economic opportunities there give great incentive to assimilate"

I think disease, genocide, fertility and, finally, Empire are more important. In North America as in South America (Portugese, Spanish). The first economic opportunity offered was death by alien disease. Those who survived this were then given the opportunity to work as slaves in Spanish mines or English plantations. It was quickly discovered that idigenous Americans were not very good at this - they kept on dying - this opportunity was extended to Africans who were given the opportunity to travel to the New World. To avoid any kind of uneconomic waste of natural resources those indigenous people who remained were driven off their land, corralled into camps and otherwise systematically exterminated (sound familiar?).

This of course left empty tracts of land to be occupied by the advancing Europeans. English established itself more rapidly than Spanish through exporting its women as well, the Spaniards and Portuguese had to settle for the idigenous and Africans mates.

(Cont.)

FL, (cont.)

In Africa and Asia, the natives were not suitable for alien disease having already conquered them. In fact those self-sacrificing western Europeans benefitted more! Even so, the British and the French, etc. divided these continents up according to their own lights rather than respecting the historical arrangements came to by those peoples themselves. Finally, in a fit of mindless generosity, they left those peoples bureaucracies that governed over areas that included vast numbers of strangers (an inverted Trianon, if you like). The result being that when they left off their interminable civil wars the only way to parlay was through the language of their former benefactors - primarily English.

Economic opportunities indeed!

Actually, Singapore has 4 official languages with Malay one of them, and English, Chinese and Tamil being the others. Communication between the public and the government can be in any of the official languages, with forms & websites available in all 4 languages. For efficiency purposes, all communication between ministries and government bodies is limited to English.
Slovakia's language laws have a lot more in common with Malaysia's language laws where the government insists on the use of Malay in official communication even for minorities. Given the similarities and longer existence, it would be pertinent for Slovakians to examine the impact of such laws in Malaysia.

...from the Singapore Constitution:

Official languages and national language
153A. —(1) Malay, Mandarin, Tamil and English shall be the 4 official languages in Singapore.
(2) The national language shall be the Malay language and shall be in the Roman script:
Provided that —
(a) no person shall be prohibited or prevented from using or from teaching or learning any other language; and

(b) nothing in this Article shall prejudice the right of the Government to preserve and sustain the use and study of the language of any other community in Singapore.

(End)

Dear sophist,

How these nations were built, as extensions of empire is one thing. How they are constituted now in recent times, is another. Of course I meant the latter. These countries have and continue to attract eager immigrants from all over the world, in spite of the historical issues you raised. These immigrants then see their kids and grandkids lose the language of their source countries and assimilate.

Dear Cinead and anonymous,

Many good examples can be found from the experiences of other nations. The Slovak law is nationalist in nature and application and allows for no compromise, unlike what you see in Canada, Malysia et al. I can't help but feel that the thinking there is that if the Magyars don't like it, they can move south.

If we start to notice that our people are trying to emmigrate into Hungary from over there because of an atmosphere of legal and physical intimidation, then I say it's no longer a Slovak internal affair, but an international one.

It is not necessary to go as far as Asia or NA to see how languages can and should co-exist, and how there can be a majority language spoken by all (or most) but still country PROTECTS and cherishes minority languages (Spain, Italy, Finland, UK etc), trying to keep them alive instead of killing them.

Maybe there is kind of "slavic" flavour here as Russia has began to make minority languages (mainly finn-ugrian languages) situation worse, after they got boost with Jeltsin. But as far as i know, even there it is done more subtle way (thru budget cuts).

FL,

"How they are constituted now in recent times, is another...These countries have and continue to attract eager immigrants from all over the world, in spite of the historical issues you raised"

In recent times I see no evidence that the Anglosphere has any advantage than those I have already outlined: a core, large anglophone elite, and possession of a lingua franca. In fact some of the evidence is now pointing to the relative decline of English. The defensive debate in the US over adopting English as a official language to counter the rise of Spanish. The acceptence of Chinese characters in web page names - to name a language that really does offer economic opportunites - giving that language a equal footing in this important technology. (You should also consider Anglophone domination of key technologies)

In the debate over successful Language assimilation, we should really be considering Hungarian. Only 5-10% of Hungarians carry Finn-ugric genetic markers, yet the whole population speaks fluent Magyar. I don't have the figures, but I suspect English performs poorly against this measure. As a result of 1989 changes, a number of English people immigrate to Hungary of which I'm one, they are raising families and from personal observation I can tell you they are assmilating fine. I don't expect my grandchilren to speak fluent English, and I already know families where the children are not fluent in English.

Dear sophist,

I don't get what all the controversy is about. I appreciate that there are some signs of people assimilating into Hungary, but comapred to what's happening elsewhere, we have a long way to go.

This all started about my responses to a Slovak language law, and about how some other nations don't need to rely on such measures to force assimilation.

Sophist: I was just talking to my brother on Sunday about the apparent decline of English as the dominant world language. He also raised the acceptance of characters from languages other than English in domain names. He is a computer systems engineer in the travel business and was voicing his concern of what it meant for international tourism. He recognised that it was inevitable change, but admitted that he was concerned about losing what has long been a natural advantage. I agree with you about the unlikeliness of Hungarian disappearing as a distinct language. Although a lot of Hungarians speak varying degrees of English...enough to struggle through basic transactions etc, it's nowhere near the penetration of English in other places I've been where you really don't have to worry that much at all. That's not to say that the Hungarian concerns are not understandable though. ...a small country surrounded by larger cultural/ethnic groups, many of whom at one point or another have imposed their hegemony on it. I have no problem with Hungary wanting to maintain a sense of individuality of character. I just think being too insular is only going to hurt the country more economically, while leading it towards more 'stewing in its own juices'. That's where this Slovakian business really isn't helping to inspire Hungarian confidence in opening up more.

Dear Cinead,

The "Slovakian business", as exemplified by their recent language law, in counter to current trends in many democracies re minority lnguages.

It's their turf, and they do what they think best. But Europe has a long history behind such measures, and they don't usually produce good results, unless they are backed by a booming economy that requires immigrant labor. It's only when people think their children will be better off economically by assimilating, that they don't mind their children forgetting the language of their ancestors.

FL,

"This all started about my responses to a Slovak language law, and about how some other nations don't need to rely on such measures to force assimilation"

English is certainly not one of them: I repeat the spread of English at the expense of other languges is largely down to genocide, comparatively high fertility and political domination.

The situation of French Canadian and Welsh is similar to the situation of Hungarian in Slovakia - no amount of legal oppression will eliminate a thriving lingusitic group - if the Slovaks want to eliminate Hungarian they should bring on the genocide. What my ancestors failed to do to the Welsh, or French Canadians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_in_Wales_Acts_1535%E2%80%931542#The_Acts_and_the_Welsh_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec#The_Quebec_Act

FL: yes. I agree, and that is precisely my point...that in a time when the world is celebrating 20 years since the fall of the wall, we have a country imposing itself in rather a retrograde way. I can't see it ending well for anyone. It's really kind of sad, because one of my really nice memories was driving from the Aggtelek caves to the castle at Krasna Horka (sorry if spelling wrong)...we visited another castle nearby where a wedding was being held. We were spotted by the Matriarch of the family (I was with a Hungarian friend) as we tried to walk around the edge of their party...she invited us in an made sure we had something to eat and drink. She was more than happy that an English speaker and a Hungarian were around to share in the day. I remember driving back through the empty border station thinking about how different things had been not that long ago(...mind you there was a Rendorseg car 'hiding' in the bushes on the Hungarian side.) With memories like that, it makes me really sad that things are going backwards.Later my friend was telling me that recently a Slovak govt report had been suppressed showing how much money they were spending on Hungarian communities for fear that it might lead to conflict and more hatred.

@ Laci;

I forgot to tell you, an article was writen in the Canadian Magazine "Macleans" (it is our equivalent to the US "Time" magazine)titled:

" Second-Rate Citizens-Discrimination of Slovakia's Hungarian monority is on the rise.. by Anna Porter.
It can be found on their web site "macleans.ca", just click onto the section "World" on top of the page. Below was an attempt to cut and paste, unfortunately, this is what happened instead.

wahttp://www2.macleans.ca/2009/10/26/second-rate-citizens/s in the November

Z

Dear Sophist,

I'm aware of how English was spread and how those nations were founded, but that wasn't my point. (I did mention the example of foced English on the Irish earlier in the thread.) But don't get past and present too blurred. My mentioning that nothing like the Slovak language law has been in vogue in those countries lately, or that opportunity brings a lot of immigrants into those countries who accept the risk of eventual assilmilation, seems to strike a raw nerve with you. That seems to me more a personal response.

Like I said, you cna't please everybody.

Hello Cinead,

I think it's a bad sign as well. The region isn't creating the kind of "melting pot" conditions that help foster minority tolerance. This is to a large part due to economics. Some of it also comes from the insecurity a small state has in a part of Europe where boundaries have often changed, due to ethnic issues.

Hi Zsuzsa,

I think perhaps your anti-virus program, if you have one, is blocking the pasting of a hyperlink.
Whenever I am about to paste a link here, I go to the bottom right of my screen, right click on the anti-virus program icon, and turn off the pause protection. Then I can paste a link. When you are done, resume the protection!

Spurred on by the international “success” of the anti-Hungarian Slovak language law, and no-doubt encouraged by the European Union’s disgraceful tactic backing of it, Ukraine has considered it timely to also commence the beginning of the final elimination of its own Hungarian minority; which lives in the Kárpátalja region, found today in extreme South-Western Ukraine.

http://www.jobbik.com/europe-news/3132.html

Hello Law,

The case of the Ukraine saddens me in more ways than one. After reading your link, I gather that it (so far) is about school textbooks, and not language use or signs.

You may or may not recall that last year on this website, I put forth the idea that when Kravchuck was in charge there in the 90's, an opportunity presented itself, that of course, we did not take advantage of. Kravchuck was corrupt, utterly corrupt running a govt of one man rule. A man like that could have been bought, a deal could have been made. If anybody in his country would have objected to the "deal", he would have silenced them.

I say we should have begged and borrowed from our western supporters a few billion and offered it to Kravchuck in exchange for the Carpatho-Ukraine. I think there is a better than 50% chance that such a deal could have gone through; if we had asked only for areas where Hungarians are the majority, then the chances would be higher still. It would have set a precedent for territorial revision in our favor.

Instead of a leadership that can think like that, what do we get? József Antall runs to Kiev, not to do a deal like this, but to sign away our claims, when it wasn't an active issue. We didn't have tensions with the Ukrainians; what was the point?

(cont)

What Jobbik misses in its critic on the Ukraine situation is the fact that the Hungarian-speaking are not the target for the Ukraine-language measure.
The Russian-speaking are.
Instead of splitting the Hungarian-speaking from the Ukraine-speaking, like Jobbik in their all-over Russian support does, Hungarians should work harder with Ukrainians to resist Russian dominance in the region.
Russia's first step will be to split the Ukraine just west of Crimea and claiming superiority over the mainly Russian-speaking eastern part of Ukraine.
In this, pro-Russian agents, like Jobbik, will support Russia's demand, by working against Ukraine's accession to the EU and NATO.
In this strategy Georgia is just one step and Jobbik is fully supporting Russia's expansionism.
That a rump West-Ukrainian would be easier for 'Nationalist Hungarians' to conquer is just an illusion. The Hungarians risks to be seen as Russian supporters and worsening the situation for the Hungarian-speakers. Jobbik makes their to create and spread this picture as the good supporters of the Russian agenda they are.
Jobbik pro-Hungarian?
Hardly.

(cont)

We keep blowing it. That is the problem. When presented with an opportunity like what I mentioned above, we don't rise to the occasion, and we don't produce leaders who could think and act along such lines.

My friend, this is what makes me upset. A József Antall was every bit as useless as Károlyi and his fellow magnates. In 1919, it didn't occur to anybody among the Hungarians, that the Allied politicians could have been influenced with a little bit of cash. We might have had to lose some territory, but not as much as we did. People like Károlyi knew about the allied plans to dismember our country, but responded by doing nothing.

Why are we like this? Why do we produce such leaders? Nations even smaller than us sometimes show more talent for behind the scenes influence peddling, so what is our problem? It appears to be a flaw in our national character, which seems to be characterised by moodiness, emotion and victimisation.

Thinking about Antall, running to Kiev and genuflecting, signing away any potential claims by us, before it was even an issue and getting no concessions in return- well it just makes me puke.

Hungarians are their own worst enemy.

Hi Farkas Laszlo

Hindsight bias is what I witness here, is it really a flaw in our national character or we too honest? or from the other end of the scale our leaders are being paid off behind the scenes which makes them just as bad as our enemies.
I believe a combination of both have occured and our leaders have been in the unfortunate position that their decisions if made incorrectly could only lose.
Is this the honest way to make deals like a Mafia round table deal?
This is injustice in itself and even though it may seem foolish in the status quo to think like this it truly appears for me signing yourself a pact with the same corrupt system which made us lose our lands in the first place. In my opinion I would rather lose my land honestly then make corrupt deals for my survival, this is the sacrifice all men must make for justice. True path, this is the example I would want to lead my nation, and if my leaders follow this example I see no flaw in there character.
The most famous people in history have been sacrificed and have lived onto be legends, and their influences have impacted on raising people to a higher level to spiral our society in the correct direction, what I would like to highlight is that we are lead by corrupt demagogues now and in the past influencing our nation internally and externally, this is what should be exposed.
cont

International and European Community leaders are all being lead by corrupt power elite that have no interest in people, only to keep them ignorant and squabbling amongst ourselves to drain our energy so they can remain in there hierarchy of power.
Have you stopped to research who is behind the scenes? This is where the problem has always lied, and this is what we have to highlight, the root cause of the social conditioning of society which lead us to war, who use our emotions to control us.

Hello Law,

A nation has to be defended against dismemberment. You have a choice of:

1)rolling over(or giving up claims) and letting the enemy and his occupying armies have their way, or,

2)fighting with bullets

3)use some behind the scenes diplomacy that involves a payoff.

Becaue the whole problem was one of coercion anyway, I would have had no qualms about resorting to #3 for starters, and hit the "Allies" at their weakest point, which would have been to bribe their key politicians. I also would have had no problems with Antall bribing Kravchuck to give us back some territory. If number 3 would have worked, than bloodshed could have been avoided or minimised.

If #3 doesn't work, then you're looking at #2, which does involve bloodshed, and which would cost more (war is more expensive than bribery!), and which might not work out in our favor, as we were not a great military power.

What Karolyi and Antall did, was option number 1. That bothers the hell out of me. I don't know if this is due to "national character" or not, but these are colossal strategic a leadership blunders.

We had three Allied powers and three local armies ganging up against us in 1919. I think comparing my suggestions to counter this with a "Mafia deal" is unfortunate.

Bottom line, the magnates lost a lot of their estates in the partition, the country lost it's shirt, and we blew an opportunity with Kravchuck in the 90's.

I tend to agree with Viking in that I think Ukraine's biggest focus in language/ethnic related issues is more about Russian influence rather than being specifically on Hungarian minorities.Please forgive me for what I'm about to say, but I suspect that to Ukraine the negative effect of any such policy on Hungarian communities would be regarded as 'collateral damage'. That is not to say that I think it doesn't matter or that it is 'right'. Ultimately, it's in Hungary's interest for Ukraine to be in a strong position as compared with Russia.I think Hungary will have greater influence with Ukraine if they do become full EU members; something which Russia is quite clearly not happy about.I know that most Ukrainians are largely ignorant of Hungary...trying to get money exchanged there was impossible, and I was surprised at the reaction of "Forint???"

The EU SUX!
On October 29, 2009, the leaders of the European Union and the Czech Republic reached an agreement, which allowed the Czechs to sign the Lisbon Treaty. They agreed to allow the shameful, racist and discriminatory Benes Decrees, which were instituted after World War II and which violate human rights, branding the Hungarian and German minorities collectively as war criminals, to remain in effect.
n this act against the Hungarian minority, Jobbik sees the proof that – in spite of the false promises of the powerful national and international elite – with membership in the European Union, the daily lives of the Hungarian minority in the Successor States have not improved, rather, the opposite is true, their situation since that time has worsened. It is enough to mention as one example the Slovakian language law that was put into effect on September 1.
Jobbik forcefully denounces a European Union that, in the interest of creating a supranational European State, is capable of trampling on basic human rights, one after the other, thus supporting the continuation of an unlawful system, built on discrimination between peoples; a European Union that considers that it does not have the authority to intervene when the national majority of a member state prohibits the members of an autochthonous national minority from using their mother-tongue and even imposes heavy fines for doing so;
http://www.jobbik.com/europe-news/3127.html

This is a fine example happening in Belarus!
President Alexander Lukashenko of Belarus

Russia's Vladimir Putin plays a subtle game. He has a big ship to steer. He's in White Man's corner, but to what degree is still unproven.
Every other White Gene Pool Head of State is a jewish (ranging from Bush to Ukraine's Yushenko) with one very bold, and extraordinary exception:
President Alexander Lukashenko of the Republic of Belarus

Belarus is the only Great White Gene Pool nation to garner the unique honor of being labeled a "rogue state" by the jews .
The Jew "Wall Street Journal" calls Belarus a "semi-fascist" state run by a "tyrant," too bad Belarus did not rank as a "full-fascist" state.
The fact is jews want to seize Belarus' appliance factories, truck factories, bus factories and their petrochemical businesses, and whore out their beautiful females.
Lukashenko moves by the simple principle that the economy should support the people, not the international jew mafia, and governs accordingly.
Belarus kicks fat jew ass up one side of the street and down the other.
Alexander Lukashenko's Belarus, the tough as a pure white diamond, White volk nation. Tough as Yulia Nesterenko -- the "Belarus Bullet" -- Lukashenko won't allow jews to sell his White diamonds into slave whoredom in Israel, sucking dicks of short, fat, dark, hairy, jews in Israel, as the Ukraine does.
cont:

1) Population: 10,000,000 Slavs, 99% pure White Slav nation, less than 1% jew.

2) Minsk, the capital, 1,700,000 population.

3) Landlocked nation-state with 11,000 lakes, about the size of Kansas, bordered by Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Russia and Ukraine.

4) The premiere Olympic event -- The 100 Meter Sprint -- the "Belarus Bullet" -- ****** stomper -- Gold Medalist in the 2004 Athens Olympics is the blond, blue-eyed Yulia Nesterenko. Adjusted for population Belarus finished fourth in medals of all the nations in the world in the Athens Olympics -- the USA finished 30th.

5) Environmental challenges: Along Belarus' south border the damage from the Chernobyl, Ukraine reactor emissions must be managed.

The Failed jew Mafia War on Belarus

Quite expectedly, President Lukashenko is the politician most under attack . Jews have tried over and over to "Milosevic" him. The most maligned, the most attacked Head of State’
The Jew World Order labeled him a "tyrant" -- they paid him the highest compliment by calling him "a Hitler." jews have beat out their brains and squandered their money in vain trying to destroy him. He laughs at them, and throws their fat asses in prison.

Cont

While other east European nations beg EU and NATO entrance to the jew mafia club of political bribery, Lukashenko disdains these weak and corrupt jew-pussy race-traitors and repudiates both the EU and NATO.
While jews take over Georgia and Ukraine to "privatize" - steal the national economic assets and send the females into whoredom in Tel Aviv -- Lukashenko defends his people from economic and sexual predation -- "model agencies" in Belarus come under government oversight. This way the exquisite Belarus females don't wind up becoming jew whores in Israel.
"The Belarus Political Model" Whips the "jew-Franchised American Political Model"

Lukashenko's "Belarus model" is the rock upon which the jew World Order will break.

The jew world Order successfully moved in for the kill in Georgia and Ukraine, but at the same moment Lukashenko gets reelected by 80% of his nation.

Lukashenko kicks the jew-funded International Republican Institute and the National Democratic Institute out of Minsk. On the other extreme, Ukraine's Yushenko promotes and is elected by these same types or jew organizations.

Lukashenko in Belarus is supported by his white volk. By contrast, Yushenko in Ukraine is propped up by the stolen wealth of wealthy "oligarchs" -- the international jew mafia.

cont

The jew mafia successfully groomed and bought the politicians of Georgia and Ukraine. From the US and the EU they sent in paid "impartial observers" - agitators. They bought the media. They bought the courts and the judges to rubber stamp their "democratic revolution." Their CNN and BBC mimicked the lies in the US and the EU countries. They have begun "privatization" -- the theft-expropriation of the major industries and businesses, as they did in Russia before Putin began to rope them in. When these same mafia sneak into Belarus they wind up in jail. They are not even able to meet in Belarus, they are forced into backrooms outside Belarus in Vilnius or Kiev.

The jew mafia has its jew-Franchised "American model" -- the jew "democracy franchise." Send in the jew mafia to bribe local politicians and the Soros media money to set up the jews media thought-frame, promote rock concerts in the capital for the duped fuzz-nut teenagers, and declare that "democracy" has prevailed.

But opposed to this model is Lukashenko's "Belarus model":

1) Protect females from jew exploitation and predation.

2) Jail the jews.

3) Maintain economic independence and self-sufficiency.

4) Close off outside incoming capital flows aimed at bribing potential boughtling race-traitors.

5) Allow no jew ownership of the press, actually allow no jew participation in the media whatsoever.
cont

When the EU threatens to economically boycott Belarus for not submitting to jew pressure or when the EU asks to send "Human Rights" Fifth Column jew spies into Belarus, Lukashenko laughs and notches down the spigots on the critical oil and gas pipeline flowing through Belarus from Russia supplying all of Western Europe. Then the EU quickly forgets talk about trade restrictions and "Human Rights" issues -- jew supremacy. When the EU tries to seduce or buy Lukashenko by begging him to join the EU and NATO to take up his rightful place of leadership in the West, again, Lukashenko laughs. He tells them to go **** themselves. Who needs the EU (the "jewU") and for what, to enslave and whore out my brothers and sisters to jews?
Lukashenko's combination of responses for protecting the economic health and ethnic purity of his nation has become known around the world as the "Belarus model." This model is beginning to get play in Russia. Putin can learn from Lukashenko. So can the European parties.
When jews have tried to "Milosevic" (verb) President Lukashenko, he capitalizes by exposing and flouting jew subversion to bury the jews, he gets 80% of the vote by opposing the jew mafia. He will again get 80% or better of the vote in his 3rd five-year term, which began in 2006.
The next great political wave in European history will be the jew World Order getting "Lukashanked" by an increasing number of nations, first in line being Russia. cont

What Hungarians need most today is their very own version of volk "Leader" President Lukashenko and his "Belarus model."

Amen

@John Laws
“1) Population: 10,000,000 Slavs, 99% pure White Slav nation, less than 1% jew.”

Stop telling the truth about us Jews. We do not like it and we do not like you.
I am speaking on behalf of all my Jewish brothers and sisters who are just as allergic to truth as I am. We will tell you what the truth is.

Maybe the reason we Jews do not run everything in Belarus because there is only 1% of our brothers and sisters there.

Our Jewish/Communist brothers and sisters have been running Hungary for about 65 years but we make up 3% of Hungary’s population. You cannot run a country with only 1% Jews.

What we need to do is have some or all of our Jewish brothers and sisters from Hungary to Belarus. I am sure that the Hungarians would not mind having Jews move to Belarus if that would help Belarus out. It would be a great sacrifice for Hungarians but we all must share the burden.

Somehow I doubt the man with the golden microphone would even know where Belarus is, much less have any interest in Eastern European affairs. I think he's more interested in selling Toyotas and Valvoline oil, and getting little old ladies into a frenzy. "You know what I mean."

Sorry for being cryptic...the one who the previous post referred to knows what I am talking about.

You had better believe that I know what you mean by “getting little old ladies into a frenzy” my brother, Cináed. That is what we do best.

Erik - Seriously, this is not a matter of free speech. He makes no points at all other than just irreverent comments. Can't you block his IP?

C-Moi: Unfortunately no - it seems to be a bit dynamic. But WE ARE WORKING ON A SOLUTION. Just be patient!

Dear Erik,

I appreciate that very much.

I've expressed to Erik my concerns in a private communication. I feel Bernie degrades this website. He also makes a fool out of the rest of us; intelligent participants would have to ask themselves, "If he has a free run of this place, then what am I doing participating here?" The longer he is allowed to go on, the more we all would have to question why spend time and energy on this website.

I suspected him to be a provocateur from the get go, trying to see who expresses agreement with his rants. He has admitted as much in one of his posts, claiming to be in league with the "nacivadasz". I also never believed for a moment that he is a Jew as he claims to be.

I commend this community for having had the sense to largely ignore him, and I recommend that we all continue to do so. Engagement and discourse with him would be a drain on, and a waste of anyone's time.

Those of you who know my style and manner from way back, will know that it is unprecedented on my part to take such a strong public position against another poster here. I accept that there are differences of opinion over just about everything and I do respect the right of people to believe what they want.

Bernie however, appears to me to be a disturbed individual who is also hungry for attention. Until Erik comes up with a fix (and I'm very sure he will), let us continue to deprive him of that. He can address me all he wants, but I won't respond.

I do appreciate your concerns my brothers Erik and Laszlo but you are making too big of a thing of Bernie telling it like it is. Why should not Bernie tell it like it is in the company of us fine Jewish, ahem Hungarian brothers and sisters?

I am especially hurt by my Jewish brother Laszlo’s questioning my Jewish identity. I could claim to be a Hungarian as the rest of you claim to be Hungarians while attacking everything Hungarian and call the Hungarians Jew hating, anti-Semitic Nazis as you do. Bernie cannot do that because Bernie is an honest Jew. Bernie would not think of claiming to be a Hungarian while shoving dirt at the Hungarians.

To show you, my Jewish brothers and sisters that Bernie is 100% Jew, Bernie is willing to share his plan with you for Hungary:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6761/palastinianlandloss8tz.gif

We are Stage 3 in Hungary but we do not plan on stopping at Stage 4. We want all of Hungary for our Jewish brothers and sisters and we will get it unless that cursed Jobbik stops us. Please join me in condemning Jobbik as a Jew hating, anti-Semitic, Nazi party, not that they are any of that but because that will help us get those troublemakers out of way. These Jobbik people actually think that Hungary belongs to the Hungarians. Only Nazis claim that their country belongs to them, it belongs to us.

Shalom, Bernie

How strange that a language law violation should
cause such a stir on this site?
WE can all see how many "true" Hungarians contribute
here by the "depth" and "integrity" of the comments. (NOT!)
Mr Farkas: Hungary has always been "sold down the river" by its leaders. True? Yes, I think so.
Gyurscany and Orban are/were no exception.
Hungarians can be moody and volatile - that is their prerogative.
Hungarian leaders on the other hand are devious,
corrupt, and totally useless, whichever way you look at it.
Nalunk az élet könnyü és boldog. Nem?

Kedves TiborKovács,

You are saying that which my father has always taught me since childhood; that we never had good leaders or a good leadership class. He took the problem right back to the reign of King Stephen, and questioned his forceful imposition of the Roman cult upon us, as well as disarming the population and making feudal slaves out of them.

He taught me that a critical assessment of our history, and love of our people and our country are not incompatible. He didn't think blind belief and delusion was very patriotic.

Thanks for the comment.

FL: I was interested to see you refer to King Steven's "imposition of the Roman Cult". Many pro-Hungarian posters here see Hungary as a bastion of the Catholic faith, and I was kind of surprised to see that you hold the opposite view.Was my reading correct, or did I misinterpret that that is what your father felt? I'm interested in this topic, well...because of my own experience I guess, but more because the issue of religion (or lack thereof) is a big issue in Hungary today. It seems that many of those who speak most passionately refer to Catholicism as a kind of birthright, when if as you suggest, it is really just yet another external system forced on a relatively powerless group. I was reading an article last week that among other things was talking about how in the pre-1848 period, Hungary was on a path towards secularisation and social inclusiveness, which more or less evaporated with the revolution and defeat. The author was saying that post 1848 saw a rise in the romanticism of the 'great Hungary' ideal, along with the creation of many 'legends' that are still regarded as truth...one of these being Hungary's Holy 'right' at being part of the manifest destiny of Christianity. What do you think of this? What do you think of the idea that Hungarians are not so good at reforming from within, but require reform and govt from an external power? If I have a chance in the next few days, I'll write a bit more from the article if you're interested.

@Cinaed:

To equate Hungarian = Catholic is not 100% correct - my wife was brought up "reformatus" and she told me that there is a strong reformatus congregation in eastern Hungary...

Yes wolfi, I realise this...but that's not what I said.

Hello Cináed and Wolfi,

Thanks for your inquiry. This is exactly the sort of thing I love to address!

Realizing of course that mixing politics, national identity and religion can be a volatile mixture, I know I risk riling up some, but I will try best to explain myself.

I first heard doubts about King Stephen from my father, who got his skepticism on this subject from his own father, who in turn got it from his father. The men in my family just may have preserved for a 1000 years a racial memory of something that our people never totally forgot, although talking about it was sometimes quite risky while the priesthood and the secular authorities were welded together.

What I heard were stories about how what dissidents to Stephen's "New Order" of Romanism and feudal slavery got was fingers pulled off, eyes poked out with a hot iron and molten lead poured into their ears! Our "religious conversion" was forced at the point of a sword! A proud warrior people who all had weapons and horses, had to give these up and become unarmed work slaves to a newly emergent class of feudal landlords, all with priestly and royal blessing. This system was our undoing in 1241 and 1526, when all it took was a foreign army of 20,000 invaders to wipe out a Hungarian population that was 98% disarmed.

(cont)

While a child, I heard more skepticism about Stephen and his adopted "church" from our elderly, especially the men. The old Hungarian people were full of anger and rage at the whole feudal system, the big estates and the "great lords". Despite the fact that many of them lacked a lot of formal education, they weren't stupid. In that system, they felt that their potential in life was stunted, and that the whole scheme was designed to keep them poor and in their place. Many of them could only get relief by emigrating.

The priests were not part of the solution to this, but rather part of the problem. "Liberation Theology" and social activism by the clergy lay in the future and was alien to the old Hungarian state supported church. The priests and bishops wanted land and estates. Lots of it. In fact, they couldn't get enough! Like for a secular lord, the people had to be slave workers tied to the land even if the holder was a churchman.

The old generation of Hungarian men never tired of mentioning this. They hated the priests for being complicit in a feudal order, and for being one of it's biggest beneficiaries. Many an old Hungarian man refused to go to church, refused last rites from a priest, and died cursing them! Many would sarcastically remark that the worse thing about going to hell was that you would then be in the company of still more priests!

(cont)

As I got older, and I became read in our history and in the history of other european nations, I realized that my father, his forebears and those old Hungarian men I listend to, were hardly off the mark. What I heard from them was confirmed in the historical record as well as the experience of other nations that struggled against a similiar problem. The French revolution of 1789 and the Spanish Republic of the 1930's, were expressions of anti-feudal and anti-clerical sentiment.

I now totally believe what my father told me; I believe what I heard from the Hungarian elders. To think otherwise would be to disrespect them, and to be in historical denial.

The church didn't always have smooth sailing in Hungary. In the wake of the Turkish and Austrian invasions in the 1500's, there was a lot of upheaval. Protestantism, especailly Calvinism, caught on like wildfire, primarily in the non-Turkish zones. The people were tired of slaving for a parasitic, land owning priesthood; hence Protestantism, which emphasied that no priestly intermediary was necessary between man and God, was enourmously appealing and empowering. The Reformation in Hungary largely fell victim to an Austrian approved "counter-Reformation". People were once again coerced to change their faith, although Protestantism did survive afterwards.

I believe that if Hungary had stayed Protestant, the politcs and economy would have evolved differently.

(cont)

I totally respect and understand that many Hungarians derive their sense of national identity from Catholicism and Christianity. It's gone on for long enough to affect our self image. There are however some Hungarian nationalists who gravitate to pre-Stephen symbols, like the Árpád flag and the ancient runic "Rovás" writing. Some may decry the Árpád flag as a symbol associated with 1940's fascism, but I think it's appeal goes deeper than that. I believe that many Hungarians believe, along with me, that what King Stephen introduced into our country was questionable, both as policy and legacy. I can't help but feel that the source of our national clamities had their origin in the "reforms" that were forced in the year 1000.

I don't wish to poop on anyone's parade; I do respect the right of others to believe what they want. Whatever gives them strength or purpose. I've told you where I'm coming from, and others could tell it different.

The Church of Rome did produce a few characters that are of very great interest to me. One of them was my namesake, King László, who was reputed to be quite a mystic with stories of him levitating and bilocating, and Queen Elizabeth, the daughter of King András II, another miracle working mystic. Aha, but they weren't priests!

Best regards,

Laci

FL,

" I can't help but feel that the source of our national clamities had their origin in the "reforms" that were forced in the year 1000"

How do you imagine life would be without Christianization - collections of yurts across the puszta, seasonal raids on the Germans and Slavs?

I think the Lithuanians were the last Europeans to hold out - until 1387. Do you think the Magyars could realistically done better?

In spite of the fact that, in the last one thousand years, the Hungarians have managed to live down this name, there has again recently arisen an organized movement whose goal is to reestablish this undesirable description of them, in order to justify the Hungarian genocide which resulted from the christianization of Hungary. The belief that it was not worth writing the history of “such a pagan people, sentenced to death and destruction”, as the Magyars were described by Pater Liebert, spokesman for Pope Pius XII, in 1945, led the anti-Árpád movement to date the beginning of Hungarian history from the time of Saint István and to call everything which preceded this era “pagan and barbarian”. It is appalling that, at the same time, this anti-Árpád movement, which had its root in the ideology of the Roman Catholic Church, supported the right of foreigners to rule in Hungary and, like the present Marxist regime, use this theory to justify their presence in Hungary and choke the feeling of nationalism.
Many people call this endeavor “the Saint István complex”, which hides under a veil the many centuries of suffering the Hungarians had to endure under foreign rule.

The Roman Church itself acknowledges the suffering and martyrdom of the Hungarian nation because almost 40 martyrs from the Árpád House have been declared “Saint”or “Blessed”. I know that some people will argue that not only martyrs and sufferers have been considered for the distinction of sainthood because there is also Saint László who was a king and King István, whom many regard as a saint and who has even been called Saint István. I can say to these people that the Hungarians must have loved their King László, under whose leadership they chased the foreigners out of the country. The circumstances and the reasons for the canonization of Saint László if studied will reveal the core of Hungarians ordeal in Europe. Just for the purpose of comparison I ask why there is not one saint among the Holy Roman Emperors. How is it possible that, among the royal houses of the cultured West, there is rarely to be found a saint whereas, among the “barbarian and uncultured” Magyars of the Árpád Dynasty – as I have already mentioned – the Roman Church has declared numerous people to be “Saint” or “Blessed”? Foreign kings sat on the Hungarian throne from A.D. 1301, for a total of 618 years. Out of these 618 years, the Hapsburgs ruled for almost 400 years and, among their rulers, there was not even one whom the Roman Church considered suitable for sainthood. cont

We can also say that, from the Hungarian point of view, these foreigners were oppressors and, under a merciless totalitarian rule, the Hungarian people were the oppressed. On this side of the scale of Hungarian life, we find all those factors which drag the fate of the Hungarians down to the gates of Hell.

Dear Sophist,

It would be hard to speculate. The religious beliefs of the pre-christian Hungarians may have been a seperate issue from their raiding behaviour. (All religious groups have misbehaved in the past!)

What I do know is where feudalism led us, and there we have a lot of historical experience to draw from not just in Hungary but elsewhere.

Dear Tormay Cécile,

I do think that our King László and Queen Elizabeth were in a class by themselves. Even from the hindsight of 8 centuries, there is about them something that smacks of the great beyond, something unearthly. I believe they were loved and admired in their time and since.

Our collegue Sophist has posed to me the question, where would we have been without christianity? Would we have gone on living in tents?

Had we not converted, we would have faced a papal ordered and blessed "crusade" or jihad. It might have been the end of us. Or perhaps not. As it is, with priestly encouragement, we were disarmed and turned into serfs. That just opened us up to being almost wiped out by the Mongols a couple of centuries later. Mongols, Papal hordes, it doesn't matter to me, we appear to have been a people destined to have to fight for our existence either way. That being the case, I just wish the sword would not have been removed from our hands.

Would we have gone on living in tents? Hard to say again; that is more an issue of economic development, rather than theology. I do believe that without feudalism, there would have been a more equitable distribution of resources. You could hardly have arrived at anything more unfair than what Stephen and his successors sanctioned.

Maybe he felt he had no choice. I believe that he did as he thought best; I will give him that.

After the “foreign conquest” which took place during the reign of King István I., life in Hungary changed. The foreigners became the lords, the aristocrats and the Hungarians, formerly free men, became the servants.eside the servitude much sadder was the fratricide which followed. István rewarded the foreigners, who had aided him against Koppány, with bountiful gifts and generous grants of land, and those Magyars who accepted Christianity were likewise rewarded. Ajtony, one of the Magyar leaders, was an Eastern Orthodox Christian and did not want to become a Roman Christian and one of his high-ranking men, Csanád, converted to the new religion and killed his master, Ajtony. István rewarded Csanád for this deed with the estate of Ajtony. Many other such cased divided the formerly strong Magyars into two camps. . . However, the laws of Saint István also inform us that such Hungarian opportunists and turncoats finally had enough of the foreign rule and wanted to return to their former religion and help their oppressed brethren. Against this, this law of the “Saint-king” was established:“If anyone of the aristocracy should meet a pagan, corrupted heretic, he should punish him with the loss of his right hand.” (Corpus Juris, 11. 15)

continued

From this time on, the expression: “Az elhajított jobb-kezek” (the amputated right-hands) became common among the Hungarian people. The “Saint-king” ordered that all heretics should lose their right hand. This merciless law not only reflects the merciless law of the Old Testament in Roman Christianity, but also reflects the “absolute rule” of the new rulers in that it destroyed the will of the people.

The Magyars, who believed in Jesus and who knew Eastern Christianity, actually had their first contact with the hierarchical system of the Western Roman Christianity when they had to fight against archbishops, bishops and canons, who were leading the armed forces against them. This historical fact indicates the interesting organization of the Western Roman Christian Church, by which the ruling clerics possessed not only churches and monasteries but also well-equipped, strong armies. To the Magyars, who had reconquered the Carpathian Basin on the basis of their ancient rights, this did not reflect the “Christian love” which the Church had been teaching and preaching. It must have been a big surprise to the Magyars to see on the battlefield the dead bodies of archbishops and bishops, with swords in their hands. Historical research indicates that the churchmen of the Eastern Orthodox Church were the complete opposite. The notion of the Western Roman Church to exterminate the Magyars can be found in the Little Legend of Saint István and other legends, which are all the products of the writings of the Western Roman Church, the present-day Marxist official historical view and those emigrant Hungarians who, under the pretext of glorifying Saint István, are actually serving the foreign regime and they are using these sources of information as accepted historical sources. Thus, it is written in the Little Legend of Saint István.

FL and TC: your posts were fascinating, thanks. Could you comment on the notion that Hungary is not capable of governing itself and needs a foreign power to rule it? btw...I heard that from a Hungarian. What I get from your posts is that the Catholic church itself was yet another foreign power that asserted its will over Hungary, forcing the people to fall in line or lose their hands (and/or heads).Certainly the church is not innocent of large scale violence, genocide and persecution and so the idea that conversion to Christianity was to 'enlighten' the pagan 'savages' that there was a better way somehow seems to have missed something.For the record, I think paganism gets a bad rap a lot of the time.It's often portrayed as barbaric and violent, when in fact, many pagan groups had quite well-developed cultural values and traditions.I agree that Hungary had little choice but to convert to Catholicism, and that it was better to jump than be pushed.I also agree that had Protestantism become stronger, the character of the nation could well have been very different. Mind you, Protestant Reformers were not exactly squeaky clean when it comes to violence and destruction though...still, the Protestants were more about personal responsibility and a greater degree of egalitarianism. So in the end, do you think that Hungarians are incapable of effective self-government?

Just for the sake of interest, Hungary has not always been 'hated' by its eastern neighbours, and neither has it always been regarded as a country full of easy-beat peasants. Both Gogol and Lermontov make reference to Hungarians as being wise and honourable, and that they are to be respected because they are 'not afraid to swing the sword'.

Everyone has their favorite way of using the internet. Many of us search to find what we want, click in to a specific website, read what’s available and click out. That’s not necessarily a bad thing because it’s efficient. We learn to tune out things we don’t need and go straight for what’s essential.

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Dear Cináed,

I saw your post, sorry I didn't address your question earlier!

Not having much past experience with democratic self rule and bungling self rule are two sides of the same lousy coin. I do keep telling people around here that Hungary is by no means the only nation in such a pickle; that many others have it even worse. What you see going on in Africa today illustrates that. I recall that a number of laughing cynics predicted that as soon as the colonial powers withdrew, the black people would fall flat on their faces, having no experience with commerce or economic or poltical self management.

The Hungarian who in all candor told you that we need foreign domination, I believe spoke out of exasperation. He reminds me of those Africans who I have heard advocate "recolonisation"! (China is making big inroads over there nowadays!) I don't believe that small, lesser developed nations can dream of real independence anyway; sooner or later they become influenced or dominated by some greater power.

We'll just have to make do with what autonomy we have, and learn to keep our poltical system responsive. If we can't manage smaller issues, then I fear we won't do well with big ones. I believe we mst be patient, as it will take decades to get over our past.

FL:Thanks.I like that you think long term about Hungary's issues, and that you're into building something constructive rather than continuing to react to the hurts and tragedy of the past.What I worry about is that I think that healing is not something that is guaranteed over time.Without the right environment, wounds can do the opposite and become septic, eventually poisoning the entire body.Wounds must be cleaned and disinfected before they can begin to heal.It would appear that Hungary is in a pivotal period where things could go either way.It seems that there are some potentially hugely beneficial projects coming along, but they could be squandered if changes are not made.They say that 'sunlight is the best antiseptic' and certainly transparency and openness in govt goes a long way, but what about the problem of the Hungarian 'body' being poisoned?It is concerning to think that even if a 'good' government comes to power, that Hungarian society may not recover even if the economy improves.What do you think?

Dear Cináed,

From what I have observed over time, is that a people and their govt are mutually reinforcing, for better or for worse. For a govt to be more responsve, less corrupt and more transparent, the people themselves would have to desire these values.

Waiting for top down direction, at the expense of personal intiative, I think is a cultural legacy of the communist and perhaps the pre-communist period. We have to be self-motivated, and try to encourage others. Change happens one person at a time. Sure, there are many good policies a govt can implement, but that would take a population that would value and want those kind of changes.

I keep saying around here that it will take time and a new generation to make bigger changes in the long run. We must educate our youth for the challenges of the modern world. We should also see to it that they travel and are exposed to other societies, so that they can learn valuable lessons from the experiences of other peoples.

@Cináed and Farkas Laszlo:

Thanks for your encouraging thinking on Hungary's future - since I have so many friends here now, I hope for them, my neighbours and everybody that Hungary gets better/gets rid of that "Hungarian sickness" ...

And I shouldn't forget, and I mean it with all my heart:

Boldog Uj Evet!

Ein Gutes Neues Jahr allen anständigen Menschen überall auf der ganzen Welt ...

FL: I couldn't agree with you more.I have heard a lot of people saying that it is up to the government to provide leadership and emotional responsibility for the attitude of the people.I think it's actually one of those 'chicken and egg' things, where although the government is supposed to lead, the people must also impose clear expectations on the government to perform.I can appreciate what you say about time and the need for the next generation to change things, but what I worry about is that the same negative attitudes are passed from generation to generation...something that tends to encourage radicalism as actual memories are lost and replaced with sentimentalised and emotively exaggerated perceptions of the past that are heavily influenced by the insecurity and uncertainty of being disconnected from one's heritage. (cf Islamic extremism)
I was glad to see you encouraging travel and contact with the world.I know that this for me was very powerful in developing my sense of identity and understanding of my own heritage.
I'm not sure I agree with the idea of Hungary taking on more loans though, as I worry that eventually, all loans have to be paid back.The strategy of developing through large loans is what led to much of the financial stress that already exists, and I fear the consequences going further into the red.

@Cinaed
I believe there is a lot of truth we can receive
from our parents, good and bad memories. So what
makes it so acceptable for Australians to be so
patriotic about ANZACS and as soon as Hungarians
remember there Heroes they are classed as
Radical!? Our Nation is several times older then
Australia and we will never forget what the Jewish
influenced Communists did to our people and
continue to this day.
The establishment in most western faces are so
illusive that most people live in total ignorance
and are manipulated without even flinching, and
those who do are radical, racist anti Semites or
Fascist. Who are the radical? Sure isn’t patriotic
Hungarians they have harmed no one, it’s the Neo
Liberal social conditioning which is harming the
people by causing problems by criminal,
corruption, drugs, creating space cadets from our
youth etc etc. Our secular establishment is
eroding Nations sovereignty into a united slurry
of shit for our future generations, we are using
the law the best means possible and the
International and National judiciary is all
controlled by the establishment who have there
invested agenda.
So please consider what and how you write and
stick with the facts and don’t assume and be
condescending about Hungarian people. People, who
live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

@Olga

The anti-Hungarian frothing of most of the people posting here does not bother me much. I recognize them as obnoxious, ill behaved, uninvited guests who in most cases do not rate a response (Münzberg Mihály: Vendégjog).

I admit that your posts do bother me because you have told us about yourself and know that your parents paid a heavy price for being decent, patriotic Hungarians under the Rakosi’s Jewish/Communist terror. You present such a contrast with Law who, as some of you say, is the son of Hungarians, who just as your parents escaped Communist oppression.

I am not asking you to endorse Jobbik or join the Magyar Garda because there are many Hungarians, decent patriotic Hungarians, who do not support Jobbik or Magyar Garda. That would be perfectly acceptable because I know of Hungarian families where the parents are Fidesz supporters while the children are Jobbik supporters. They eat at the same table. They do not hate each other.

You are confused about how Hungarians feel about Jobbik and the Magyar Garda, even those Hungarians who support Fidesz, not Jobbik. There is no hate and when the police brutalize the Jobbik and Magyar Garda, all Hungarians feel brutalized regardless of who they support.

Law read and appreciated the poem I posted from a Gárdista. It saddens me that you are not able to read it and get some insight into the soul of the people you try to besmirch without knowing anything about them or ever occurring to you that you besmirch the memory of your patriotic Hungarian father when you make fun of Hungarians, your parents’ Hungarian people who suffered so much. You should listen to the Hungarian anthem and try to understand at least the first verse:

http://www.bogar.net/hungary/hunhimn.htm

Isten, áldd meg a magyart
Jó kedvvel, bôséggel,
Nyújts feléje védô kart,
Ha küzd ellenséggel;
Bal sors akit régen tép,
Hozz rá víg esztendôt,
Megbûnhödte már e nép
A múltat s jövendôt!

Happy New Year!

@Olga : BÙÈK 2010 to you too - hope you don't get discouraged by those madmen and choose to stay on this site ...

Mark: What you consider "The anti-Hungarian frothing" is surely not anti-Hungarian but anti-loonie ...

Viking, Vandorlo etc surely have more in common with Hungary and more respet for Hungarians than
you crazy psychotic who calls himself a "Tiszta Magyar"

Dear Cináed,

When I suggested that our youth become more traveled and experienced in the the world, I had several objectives in mind that I did not specify.

1)"the wake up call" re corruption. Corruption is a problem in Hungary, but we don't make the bottom of that list by a long shot. I believe the coming generation should travel to countries that have a lot more more corruption than Hungary, just to see what the social and economic consequences are. Then there are places where more has been done to reduce the incidence of corruption, and those should be visited as well, so that we can learn how it has been dealt with.

2)"the economic wake up call". Not every nation is as economically stagnant as ours. I recommend our youth spend some time in the tiger economies of Asia. They would bring back a whole new attitude.

3)Future business connections. Spending time abroad, learning the language, culture and making contacts will come in useful when our firms want to do business abroad someday! Young Hungarians should think about visiting China and learning Chinese just as one example. It's a vast market and an upcoming superpower. Learning Spanish would enable us to do business with Latin America.

4)Learning that tradition and change need not cancel each other out. Japan combines the two very well for example.

5)Finally to stop feeling like victims and to stop feeling sorry for themselves like so many of their elders. It's not empowering.

FL: At the risk of sounding like I'm gushing, your last post is one of the best I've ever read here, and I could not agree with you more. Re: corruption, indeed, Hungary is miles from the list,and in fact there are countries that are more developed and rich that are further down.Corruption is not a failing peculiar to Hungarians, but yes, unless we all learn the consequences of such things, the potential for corruption increases. I was particularly moved by your discussion of the Asian 'tiger economies' and can only endorse your point of view.This is one of the very reasons I have chosen to study in an Asian university as they are significantly more dynamic and progressive than many of our own institutions. I almost literally applauded when I read your statement that tradition and change do not necessarily cancel each other out.In fact, rather than allowing a culture to stagnate, some change and adaptation can ensure its survival. Re:victim mentality: There is a quote from Habermas that goes something like 'now that we are able to self-reflect, we can emancipate ourselves, but emancipation is about more than just self-reflection, we must also take action'.
My next question then is: What could or should I do as a foreigner and even an 'outsider' to help Hungary's cause? Bear in mind that I have little 'economic means' (money) to just invest in Hungarian projects.How should others like me react to the unnecesary and sometimes hurtful and even hateful comments?

@Laci: "Corruption" We have corruption because our rulers' ideologies are so far removed from reality that we NEED the corruption=reality adjustment to get things done, to just survive! Or do you know a better way to deal with political mismanagement besides revolution? I mean it's a lot more than just a bunch of crooks grabbing as much cash as they possibly can… And the 'multinationals' apparently prefer to do business that way too: see the radio license debacle, etc. "the coming generation should travel… just to see what the social and economic consequences are" And then what? "places where more has been done to reduce the incidence of corruption," Such as?
@Cináed: "This is one of the very reasons I have chosen to study in an Asian university" Will you be safe though with all these Asian students getting serial murdered in Australia? Aren't you worried about a backlash? "What could or should I do as a foreigner and even an 'outsider' to help Hungary's cause?" Import Hungarian goods, employ Hungarians in Australia and Hungary http://bit.ly/8cp09U We have some very talented http://bit.ly/8ZVFV3 people: Tell everyone about them. "How should others like me react to the unnecesary and sometimes hurtful and even hateful comments?" By not being so damn sensitive. GROW UP for Pete's sake! Haven't you heard that life sucks and then you die?

Communism did not work. Russky/Soviet realized
this and relied on the West to pick up the pieces of their broken jigsaw.
The unification of East and West Germany has proved
expensive and,in Bulgaria, Rumania, Ukraine, mafia and government corruption rule the roost. And the same applies here in Hungary as we are all now know.With the never-ending list of corruption scandals reported on a daily basis.
If we think back to the fiasco with ex-prime minister Gyurcsany Ferenc openly mocking the people
by telling lies about just about everything - we should remain sceptical of our politicians and their empty promises.

Dear Pávaszem,

About corruption, I understand all too well why Hungarians (and other nationalities) engage in it. For us, it is a survival and coping mechanism. I also believe that it becomes a social cost to society, and that is a lesson better learned by travelling and seeing different levels of societal corruption. I believe the next generation needs to figure out what kind of society they want, and that is one important issue to address.

One practical consequence of corruption I've seen worldwide is the difference in driving habits in different nations. In some nations rules are enforced; in others they are not, because it is too easy to bribe officers and judges. In many places your life is in danger because the people are undisciplined and not punished for breaking traffic laws. In others, the rate of road death and injury is less because of greater enforcement. You need not take my word for this if you don't like, you can travel around and see for yourself.

That many Hungarians feel the need to participate in corruption for our own financial survival begs the question, should it go on like that indefinitely? Can society change? That is what I wonder about when I talk of the future and the next generation.

@Pávaszem: "...'places where more has been done to reduce the incidence of corruption,' Such as?' Such as Estonia. And as having a hard time from Russians and the old Soviet empire goes they still have the burden of an uneducated and apparently unwilling Russian minority that accounts for 25.6% of the population.
And they manage this whilst being Finno-Ugric and having more open markets. They even know how to reduce the size of government.

@Laci: "...Can society change? That is what I wonder about when I talk of the future and the next generation." I think Hungary is changing in a more positive direct at an accelerating pace. And it is due to people giving a damn and being willing to make some effort.
Driving habits are appalling here, but I find that this is largely sue to lack of any enforcement. It's not just drivers after all. Take cyclists riding the sidewalk/pavement. Without consequences everyone is in it for themselves.
But, just this morning I was on the No.6 tram and a great lump of a man started to listen to a tune on his mobile set on maximum volume for the whole carriage to enjoy. Within a second a teenage girl went over to him and asked him to turn it off. He protested, saying he liked it. She insisted it wasn't a matter of taste but manners. Could be please turn it off. He did, somewhat embarrassed.
A small thing, but normal people engaging in social monitoring and the meta-praxis of being a good citizen. No moaning, just doing.

I described how in America they were able partially eliminate some of the corruption inherent in post-Communist Hungary:
http://www.politics.hu/20100105/socialists-said-to-plan-short-but-intensive-campaign
Mark at January 8, 2010 12:25 PM
The usual suspects commented with the usual idiotic nonsense but if they want to control corruption, they have start by elimination corruption in government. People will have no respect for laws as long as they see a corrupt government. It is encouraging that no Jobbik representative allowed to have another job if elected to the Parliament. I would like to see Fidesz make the same rule for its representatives.

I don't think you guys understand!! Do you not see by exposing the power elite and the establishment is the most critical challenge for our future generations?? Nearly every democratic western country is influenced by the establishment and because of this our futures has a question mark over it, how can you transcend your soul if you become a victim of the lies? Answer … Wake up and see the emperor has no clothes on!!
I don’t care anymore about material gain but firstly clearing out who are causing the state of consciousness we are all influenced by, we require a revolution to really clean up the mess we are in, because I swear it isn’t going to improve unless we either become totally ignorant robots or we step up and expose who is screwing us from behind.
This is no conspiracy!! Once you begin the process of exposing the establishment you see how much real lack of control you have over your own destiny and our freedoms are being taken from us year by year through laws protecting these lies. So please stop this nonsense of traffic laws, all these traffic laws are for is to create revenue for the establishment, more cameras, Orwellian control. Our Media and Hollywood have a horrific influence on our societies.

Pav: I can appreciate your pragmatic attitude to 'everyday corruption'.Certainly dealing with Hungarian bureaucracy almost requires at least some greasing of the wheels to get even basic things done.It took me three months to get my first pay cheque because of the mindnumbingly frustrating process of obtaining the right cards etc, and then, it was only because of a colleague's personal contact in the tax department that things got moving.I think there is a difference though between doing what you must to survive or to meet compulsory conditions, and cheating the system and your fellow citizens to get luxuries...for instance our neighbours who loudly boasted that their taxable income was impossibly low, while they were out buying big-screen TVs etc.Re: Asians and murder.You love that 'murdered like cattle thing' don't you?What you're probably referring to is the current controversy of Indian students being victimised in the southern capitals.I'm not studying in India, so no, I'm not worried.I'm actually in one of the safest cities in the world...incidentally, with the most helpful and polite police officers I've ever met.As far as employing Hungarians, well, I would employ on the basis of being right for the job, not on nationality.I do my best to give good publicity for the country and recommend it as a place to go, but I'm not going to lie about the problems either.Be less sensitive?From a Hungarian?Is that a joke?Life sucks then you die? Ah..."the seduction of depression."

Law has the solution to all our problems:

"So please stop this nonsense of traffic laws, all these traffic laws are for is to create revenue for the establishment, more cameras, Orwellian control."

I think he deserves the next Peace Nobel Prize ...

@ Pava;

"Import Hungarian goods", I wish it were that easy. Last Spring when Dad and I were in Hungary, we went to this place called Metro (I think) similar to our Costco in North America. Do you know what I saw? Hundreds of different types of wine, Reds, Rose, Whites...and the beers! I brought home some for my husband to try and he said it was same of the soothest, tastiest beer he's ever had. So I talked to our local Magyar Haz president and said that we should only be selling Magyar wine and Magyar beer at the monthly dances. Everybody agreed and they asked me to see about importing into Western Canada.

At present, you have a choice of 2 different type of Hungarian Red wine, 1 type of White and no beer, in Western Canada.

I called everybody and anybody in the liquor industry, the liquor control board for help, I googles companies and wrote them (nobody wrote me back) I don't know what else to do. We have approx 20,000 Huns in my city, there is a market, and it's not like I'd be ordering 1 case at a time; but, pallet loads of beer and cases upon cases of wine.

So, it's not like there are people out there not willing to help, it just seems like when you do/try, you come across nothing but roads blocks.

If there is anybody out there that can help, I would greatly appreciate it. Hell Wolfi, I'd even take your advise in this are ONLY!

I'm not a beer drinker myself, but Hungarian wine is by far the best I've ever had. I've tried to buy it several times, but the stuff we get in Australia, although emblazened with "Hungarian wine" on the label, is just somehow not the same.I have wondered if the reason we can't get the good stuff is because of a difference in alcohol content or some such thing.I don't know.

@Cináed:

I totally agree with you about the quality of the Hungarian wine, also it is usually less expensive than comparable Italian or Spanish wine.

The main problem with exporting Hungarian wine is in my opinion (I've read something somewhere about this) that there are too many small producers.

To efficiently send wine long distance you have to sell a lot/ advertise a lot/ have not just one kind but several and that means big money and a big production ...

Some time ago we had a tv ad for "Balaton Bor" in Germany with a "Typical magyar" (beard and everything) but I still wonder what they were trying to sell.

In two weeks we'll be in Germany visiting the CMT (Camping Motoring and Tourist expo) where we'll hopefully find again a wine prducer to talk to who sells in Germany.

Of course I buy the wine for us and our German friends here and bring it over myself, but for others ...

@ Cinaed;

Hello you dear man! Is all going well? Silly question, I know it is.

Anyway, regarding the Hungarian wine imports. In my opinion, it is a matter of will there be a market for it, plain and simple. Majority of people only see Goulash and paprika as an export from Hungary and nothing else. Hell, in North America, very few people know about the Hungarian Goose Industry, let alone our wines. That is why I think Hungarians outside of Hungarys boarders can help quite abit by simply putting preasure on the community to demand the products.

I frequent European delis in my city. Polish, German, Croatian delis selling HUNGARIAN products and you know what? There has never been a time when I went and NOT heard Hungarian being spoken by patrons. I towe the line at going to the Slovakian bakery I must admit.

Hungarians should be focusing on promoting Hungary in North America, Asia, India, South America. To hell with trying to compete with the French and Germans in Europe, think outside the box. Like everybody says, it's a global market. That's how Hungary will turn it's self around.

Dear Zsuzsa,

I found your posts an interesting and poignant depiction regarding Hungarian exports. I admire your enthusiasm and efforts in trying to get them into Canada. Laudable as those efforts are, I firmly believe that what you were trying to do is the producer's responsibility. You can't just make things, you have to market them. If the Poles can make and internationally market beer like Okocim, why can't we? Or the Czechs with Pilsner Urquell? Worldwide I've even seen Romanian and Slovak beer for sale!

In order to export, you have to believe in exporting. You have to believe in marketing, advertising and doing everything that goes with modern business. I know from real life, and from reading here as well, that many Hungarians are clueless, or worse, just don't believe in such priorities. Too many will tell you they hate communists, but then don't like capitalism either, or they don't value or understand it. India used to be like this many years ago, but they outgrew it.

It's a deep cultural problem, and it is not likely to change anytime soon. One Hungarian publisher has a website, complete with "Add to shopping cart" buttons, but then does not take online payment. You have to mail in a check with a written order! (What's the point?) A film archive restores films, but wants thousands of euros for a lease, never thinking to sell and produce DVD's. Many hungarians just don't have a commercial bone in their body.

@ Laci;

From your lips to God's ears! I remember going to one liqour store that has the reputation of importing hard to get wine and beers. I asked him about importing a very large standing order of a variety of Hungarian wine and beers. I was even willing to get a special liqour license to sell the stuff from the Magyar Haz if I had too. He mumbled something about not being able to do that from "that part of the world". " Really", I said. "Did you know that you are already importing beers from countries SURROUNDING Hungary"?. I got a dear in the head light look as an answer.

There is not one Hungarian that I have met that would not help Hungary/Hungarians in any way they could. That is another area that could be tapped into for assistance in marketing strategies, etc and not just for investment monies, expats from Hungary.

I have to admit though, and I know this will not be a popular comment; but, what the Hell. I sometimes think that Hungarians living outside the boarders of Hungary, are, at times, more patrotic to Hungary then the Hungarians that live inside of Hungary. I do not say this lightly; but, that is how I feel sometimes.

dear Zsuzsa,

Not a day goes by where I don't think about these things. What is missing is the spirit of enterprise and the sense of what it takes to make it happen. The corruption doesn't help either.

There are those who don't think either enterprise or reduction of corruption are important. I feel for how you feel, from the bottom of my heart! Some don't think that anything can be learned from the experiences of other nations. They just want to feel like victims.

God I appreciate your spirit! I've long suggested on this website that Hungary focus not on wine but on beer making and export. Grain converted into beer is at a 100% markup! But it's no use, we don't think in terms of "mark-up" or export etc. We just want to feel sorry for ourselves and "blame the usual suspects". We may become a commercial minded people someday, but it won't happen soon.

@FL:
My dear Laci, it might come as a disappointment to you, b t globalisation has moved further than you think.

Pilsner Urquell has been taken over in 1999 by SAB (South African Breweries) which is now part of SABmiller ...

A better example would have been Budvar (Budweiser) - and they are in a fight with the American giant of the same name.

It is always fascinating for me to read the supermarket ads here in Hungary (yes I can read those with my limited knowledge of the language ...) because they are obliged to give the name of the company that produces those products and in most cases it's one of the big international conglomerates, even if it is a traditional Hungarian product, whether it is beer, sweets, cheese or whatever.

I don't think you can turn vack the clock here either.

This is an interesting investment opportunity http://www.spacemart.com/reports/Hungarian_Solo_concept_car_super-light_and_super-ecological_999.html

http://www.solo-duo.hu/index.php

Hats off to Law!
He actually promoted good links.
I had missed that car and I have been looking for alternatives, but always ended up in India (cars run on compressed air).
That it actually was serious development going on in Hungary I totally missed.
Hard to see though if the project is still alive and given the current financial situation in Europe, it is hard not to at least expect delays in the actual implementation of the production plan.
Personally, given Hungary's situation without own energy resources, I have always wanted Hungary to focus its State Sponsored development activities into renewable energy, this car development being one interesting field.

Hi wolfi,

I know that multi-nationals can and do buy up locals. On previous posts I have also advocated fresh start ups by Hungarians, in a number of business areas. (About 20-30 investors can start a micro-brew.) Even if these start-ups get bought, the sale should come at a good profit to the initial investors, who will then have more money than if they never did anything to start with. Sometimes a local producer can go multinational itself.

The attitude I am trying to counter is that of multi-nationals giving people the excuse to go on feeling like victims. If one gives in to a helpless victim mentality, then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Concentrations of money and power have always existed in this world, but in spite of that some people can rise.

@FL:

Yes, there would be many more business opportunities in Hungary for start-ups - if people both on the production side and on the consumer side would be willing.

But you have to offer people something special like beer from a micro brewery and people have to realize, that it's worth spending a bit more money on it.

When I came to Hungary in 1987 (just to visit my sister and her husband, working for some time in Budapest) and later after I had bought that old farmhouse, each time I was astonished how fast Hungary "adopted" capitalist principles. I said to myself once, they'll overtake us in western Europe soon, and they did.

I'm sorry to say however, that Hungary mostly adopted the negative aspects like concentration of power, agglomeration of companies and so on.

Of course it is nice to be able to do shopping on Sundays (you can't do that in Germany or Austria, all supermarkets and malls are closed), but to have Tesco and Aldi etc destroy all the little shops ...

It seems to me most Hungarians only are interested in the cheapest price, not in the quality of the products they buy.

That makes it difficult for start up companies to offer anything of value.

That seems to be changing at least in western Europe ...

A couple of years ago when my main line of business was going bad, I looked into to take over the operation of my restaurant, changing the profile to selling more local (micro-brew) beer. I scanned the local producers (all the big Hungarian breweries are owned by the big companies), but it was hard to find any real quality in the 10 bigger micro-brews in Hungary.
The situation is different in the US (around 1.500 smaller breweries, most started the last 10-15 years) and Sweden (where the interesting beer is made by small breweries also started the last 10-15 years).
In Hungary the micro-breweries is mostly there to produce low-quality beer for the local market of the most cheapest beer places. I would never sell it, because I do not drink it. Checking the places this type of beer, they are targeting young people, who goes after the highest APF (Alcohol Per Forint), so it is not really the audience we want also.
It takes many years to build up a good quality micro-brewery and I really wanted (and still wants) to get involved into that, but my main line of business goes too good nowadays (for which the rest of the family is not sad over), so I have no time sadly.
Hopefully, after 5 years or so when the current crisis has passed away, Hungary can see the same development on the micro-brew business as other countries.
I have though seen Dreher on sale in other countries, like Italy, so there is some export going on. Dreher was though on the cheaper side of beers.

Hi Zsuzsa, yes, things are going well.The first period of time when you move to a new place is always stressful, but we're doing our best to get into the flow of things.We had a bit of a crisis on the first day here though...My wife and I had just come off the subway and were looking for a connecting bus.I thought she was right behind me, but when I turned around, she was gone.What made it worse was that I was carrying all of her ID, her purse, and her phone.So here we are, lost in a foreign country, separated, and with no way of contacting each other. What made it worse was that English is a second language here, as it is for my wife.Thankfully, the police were amazingly helpful, polite and so incredibly efficient.They immediately sent out a call with her description and found her within an hour.
OK...so that has NOTHING to do with Hungary, but I just felt compelled to comment on how good a police force can be.
Hope you had a great Christmas and New Year.
Take care.

Thanks for that cyanide! But it may come as a surprise to you that nobody gives a flying f--k
about you, and your wife, and travel plans etc.
If quantity rather than quality were the yardstick
to measure success - you would win hands down.
I thought we had got rid of you and your insufferable nonsense altogether. Looks like I was wrong.
Where are you anyway? Siberia I hope! (Minus 50c at thew moment.)

@Wellwisher:

Even Cináed farting might be more interesting than the puke you and your jobo friends (like Law: Vesszen Trianon! ) let go ...

Sour grapes Wolfi old boy? That will never do!
I promise not to call you a Nazi -ad hoc- if you promise to refrain from calling everyone a Jobbo (whatever that is)everytime someone posts something that you disagree with.
Once again..for you and Cyanide..
It is not what Cyanide writes that I object to. Rather, the amount of space he takes up in saying it.
Review by percentage space-wise and you will get the point. (both of you) I hope!

@ Wellwisher
In the real world, unwelcome misbehaving guests are shown the door and if they still refuse to behave or leave are booted out. The Internet has many advantages such as the freedom to speak your mind without facing a longer prison sentence for “offending” Gypsies and Jews than for the brutal murder of a Hungarian by a Gypsy.
With the advantage come the disadvantages such as this loony German (if that is what he is) who decided to do penance for his father’s sins by calling Hungarians who want to control the destiny of their own country, Nazis. We also have people claiming to be Swedes, Irish and Hungarians (if that is what they are) and one honest Jew, Bystander.
Imagine if these people were all in the same room and would have to look in the face of Hungarians they malign here daily.
I could be wrong and may some day read on the Internet pages of Magyar Hirlap that the German, Swede, Irish or one of these self-declared Hungarians single handedly stopped a Jobbik assembly, not from behind the safety of a police cordon but in the middle of those assembled to hear Morvai, Vona or some other Jobbik leader.
I would pay to see that but I suspect that they would be very quiet.

@ Cinaed;

Good grief! I could only imagine what was going through your mind. That God all is well.

@ Wolfi;

You can not blame Hungarians for wanting to shop at Tesco, Auchion (did I spell that right) or any where else for the cheapest price, especially if you have to make your forint stretch farther then it should. Yes, at the end of the day, small business suffer; but, that is happening all over the world, not just in Hungary. In North America, we have Walmart and Zellers. Don't blame the people, blame the corporations for this phenomena.

Are you serious, Germany and Austria close their malls/stores on Sundays?

one of these self-declared Hungarians single handedly stopped a Jobbik assembly
Mark at January 9, 2010 3:58 PM
---
To disturb political meetings is the hallmark of Mark's kind of 'Hungarians'.
That was one thing that always disturbed me when I came to Hungary that basically every public meeting these MIEP/Jobbik-hecklers were trying to disturb.
The top was of course the egg-attacks against Demszky. Real nice democratic behaviour from Mark's kind.
To be honest, I would like to have seen the reaction if some one had thrown an egg on Orban or Vona, not that I would applaud it or think it was correct. Just that these people used the organised egg-attacks to make political profit on, instead of denouncing that anti-democratic behaviour.
If it is correct to throw one egg on one politician, there is no reason why it should be wrong to throw another egg on another politician.

Their corrupt cunts not politicians stealing from
Hungarian tax payers, they should be hung or jailed.

Their corrupt cunts not politicians stealing from
Hungarian tax payers, they should be hung or jailed.
Law at January 9, 2010 6:53 PM
---
OK, but this will never happen through normal democratic procedures, where normal laws rules, as you are well aware of.
So do you propose and agitate for a violent overthrow of the current democracy in Hungary?
And what would replace it?

Jesus H. Christ Law, the aussie school system really failed you. They're, there, their...they're all different words with different meanings.

@justasking:

I do not blame Hungarians for "trying to stretch every penny" (is that citation correct ?), of course it happens everywhere. Where there is "enough" money, there is this new trend to shop for higher quality,more ecological or (in Germany) bio-products - I had hoped it would be similar in Hungary, people looking more for quality than quantity.

What really surprised me was that Hungarians and probably the other former communist countries too went the capitalist way so fast and 100% ...

And yes it is true: In middle Europe (DACH = Germany, Switzerland, Austria)the churches and the unions work together , so shops are only allowed to generally open monday to saturday from 6 to 22 hours - with some exceptions for tourist centres, gas stations, railway stations and so on.

, anniversries ...

If the Judiciary is riddled with the corrupt Judges
which it obvious is from the way they’re jailing
patriotic Hungarians who are trying to express
democratic right’s then eventually the peaceful
means will be exhausted.. And who knows what will be
the alternative government!! Depends on who the
establishment use to quell an uprising and sadly
history shows the establishment have the money, but
they have no heart!! And if more people are snapped
out of ignorance then the better chance we have of
winning the next election and implementing laws that
are based on Szent Korona.

Actually France changed their law on Sunday open shops and allowed it during 2009.
Part of the French President Sarkozy's reforming France.
On the other hand Sarkozy's father is Pál István Ernő Sárközy de Nagy-Bócsa, a Hungarian aristocrat, so feel free to blame the Hungarians...
or you can blame the Jews for that also:
http://www.eutimes.net/2009/07/jew-sarkozy-forced-french-people-to-work-sunday-so-michelle-obama-could-go-shopping/

implementing laws that are based on Szent Korona.
Law at January 9, 2010 7:16 PM
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Like the death penalty?
You used the word 'hung' as an suggested punishment in your previous post.
To do that Hungary must first leave the EU, then all member states are bound by treaties not to allow the death penalty.
This is now a very long process you describe, over several years and you really think that it would happen, when revolutions are normally very short stories.
We know that you support the violent attacks done by the 'Hungarian Patriots' then you have published web-links to their support sites.
Do you really think that those 5-10 molotov-cocktail attacks has changed anything in Hungary today?
In what way have those molotov-cocktail attacks strengthen the 'Hungarian Nationalist Movement'?
If their trials starts before April they could heavily influence the outcome of the General Elections in the favour of MSZP, and what will your kind have won then?

@ Viking

"If their trials starts before April they could heavily influence the outcome of the General Elections in the favour of MSZP, and what will your kind have won then?"

What do you mean? Please explain.

Is Budahazy charged with throwing Molotov cocktails.

A month ago I emailed my one and only "Tiszta Magyar" friend who refuses to vote and has no interest in politics.

She does not speak English so i was very brief" and probably full of spelling errors.

Me: Te mid tudsz a Budahazy -rol? Answer: Nem sokat, o lesz a MSZP vezeto a Bajnai helyett. I am glad Mesterhazy hasn't found out yet

Wish I kept her actual answer so I could cut and paste.

Again lies about patriotic Hungarians, wait till the
elections then we will have the opportunity to
investigate with a genuine police force and Judges
not the current Israel trained and manipulated
establishment. And people like you will suffer!! You
will be considered a traitor for the betrayal of
one's country. The karma you created will come back
to bite you Viking! The Divine our universe works in
mysteries ways.. This is one area which your soul
can never escape..

I’ll never forget what the Commie Jews did to the Hungarians, the murdering scum, the suffering and terror they put my family through, even the continuation of them being in power now, my mission is to expose these deceitful liars and their criminal agenda.

Awww Law, it's so cute when you rant all fire and brimstone.

Is Budahazy charged with throwing Molotov cocktails
olga at January 9, 2010 8:10 PM
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Budaházy is allegedly the mastermind behind the Arrows of Hungarians, a group that was preparing the murders of certain MSZP politicians. This time he is sitting in jail while the police and the prosecutor's office continue to gather evidence. Thirteen people are in jail in connection with this alleged plot.
If proven guilty he should be sentenced to from 10-15 years up to life. The latter if it is seen as terror activities.
Jobbik and similar kind sees these detainees as 'Political Prisoners' in today's Hungary.
Law posted some days ago a link to a support-site of these 'outlaws' as they like to call themselves. They assume the right to do what is needed, regardless what the law stipulates, to reach their political goal.
In some European countries this type of home-grown terrorism is growing, like in Sweden where the discussion is if the theft of the Auschwitz-sign in Poland was an attempt to strengthen the war-chest for a similar Swedish terror-organisation that is allegedly planning attacks on the Swedish Government (non-socialist). Anyway the Swedes involved are all well-known neo-nazis and the obviously ordered the theft by some Poles they knew.
So, as usual these things are never Hungarian unique, they are part of a bigger puzzle, where the different organisations involved have connections with each other.

CM: please don't think too badly of the Australian education system. It's not always the teacher's fault if a student cannot or will not learn.
...speaking of correct language usage. "Hung" should be used in reference to the hanging of an object such as a picture etc, when referring to putting a person to death by hanging, "hanged" should be used. I know that more recently "hung" has become more common and interchangeable though.

I have two neighbors that have fallen out irrevocably over politics. One has an autographed photo of Orban Viktor. (This was sent to him for his 60th birthday).
The other neighbor who has worked abroad for most of his life (returned to Hungary several years ago) declared that all politicians and their respective parties (including Orban) are communist.
The people in the village say that all things political in Hungary are corrupt.
PS. Cináed. Well spotted hung/hang etc. Common mistake. Is your pseudonym Gaelic-based? Horse, horseman, or some such?

@Tinta
It should be no big surprise if Hungarians returning home, especially those escaped after the Soviets crushed the Uprising are a lot less tolerant about people with Communist past. The next time you meet your neighbor who thinks that both FIDESZ and MSZP are polluted with Communists, explain to him that after many years of Communist rule, many people are not as pristine as they should be. However, FIDESZ is still much better than the Communist MSZP and SZDSZ the parties of the worst Communists. However, if your neighbor wants a party even cleaner than FIDESZ, he should consider JOBBIK.

If the only demand is to be free of corruption, mostly because they have not been elected politicians yet, one can look at other parties in Hungary today.
Like Politics Can Be Different (Hungarian: Lehet Más a Politika!, and its acronym LMP) is a Hungarian political party founded in 2009. The foundation of the party was preceded by the creation of a non-governmental organization (a "social initiative", as they put it), founded in 2008, with the purpose to reform Hungarian politics.
LMP shares common ideologies with most green parties
Key issues are environmental protection, sustainable development and the fight against corruption in the current political elite

Thanks for clarifying that viking i'm convinced 100%
that LMP is another communist party, now you Israel
agent, piss off!!

Hi Law,
You are correct but why bother with someone like that? They are here only to provoke.

BTW, you and Ricsi probably know the case of the gypsy who murdered a Hungarian and got only a suspended sentence. Do not volunteer this information to these people. They do not rate a response.
Imagine the media uproar if it were the other way around.

i'm convinced 100% that LMP is another communist party, now you Israel agent, piss off!!
Law at January 10, 2010 6:29 PM
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You are really, really, really sure that they are just not Jewish?
No need to 'Call A Friend'?
Or, use the 50/50 (remove the 2 bad alternatives)?
We all fall to the floor in admiration for your crystal ball.
Hhhm, you are sure you are not a tiny winy bit Gypsy?
-
What if they were Communists, if they never have been politicians, like Jobbik, they are clean of corruption correct?
What happens after they are elected, is of course a good question, which is equal for the Jobbik-reps.
-
You are correct in your assumption that I will go to the toilet now to take a piss, you may call that a 'piss-off' in your Australian English, but do not fear - The Viking Will Be Back!

Dear Viking,

I took a look at the LMP website, and I notice the emphasis is on environment and corruption. The corruption part I think commendable, and should be a non-partisan concern.

What have you heard about their view on the Mako gas development? Do they want it at all?

What I've noticed in the world is that formerly undervdevloped nations who now are making big economic gains, are not very concerned about green issues. In China for example, the main concern is economic growth and not any green inspired restrictions on growth. It's one thing for an already rich and highly developed society to impose environmental laws that could impact economic expansion, but for a people coming up from poverty, the priorities might be different.

I don't see what their economic agenda would be, and that is a big concern of mine. Besides having issues with corruption, Hungary's problem is that it's people are not able to compete in a global marketplace. Without a natural resource windfall like the Mako field, I fear another generation (at least) of more stagnation.

Let me know what you can find out about this!

Hi Mark
Yes i read that about the Gypsy criminals and the
Hungarian corrupt judiciary system continues their
theatrical performance. This is one of many gypsy
crime cover ups. I bet if it were a MG then CNN, BBC
and all the major media networks would have a field
day, but then again we don’t have to worry because
the Garda are clean spirited Hungarians, our future
hopefuls. It won’t be long now and we will have the
pleasure of being in parliament Adjon az Isten,
szebb jövőt!

Law wrote to Mark:

"we will have the pleasure of being in parliament"

- Law and Mark as members of parliament, that would be really funny ...

So they seem to be closely connected to, äh, which party ?

What have you heard about their view on the Mako gas development? Do they want it at all?
Farkas László at January 10, 2010 6:50 PM
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I do not promote LMP myself, even if I can see them as an interesting 'protest-vote', so I am not so up to their different policies.
I would think that they do not have a thought-through policy on the Mako-field, then it is still a bit in the future.
I would though think that they would be instinctively negative and they would put up a lot of environmental demands that would be met, to approve it.
It will though be very dependent on what local opinion can be found on this matter. From what I could understand LMP does not have a grass-root organisation in that area.
The Mako-area is heavily dependent on agriculture, so it would be another hurdle in this to get 'Green Approval' for such a project.
The technology to be used is rather new, so it will be some discussions how safe it will be environmentally.
-
When we come to their policies for the Economy, they are of course for development of small scale farming, also due to environmental effects. They claim (probably correct) that big farming units use more energy and create more environmental disturbances than small units.
This is of course all very nice (I think Jobbik has similar ideas, but they argue not so much from the 'Green Perspective' more from a 'Cultural/Nationalist' perspective).
Hard to see people in general live on small farming though.
LMP will work with a few isolated issues.

I wanted to know if how to use antivirus firewall is part of the training in technology classes in middle schools. I am concernd that even though teaching with computers is very common the training to healthy network safety practices lacks.