The main opposition Fidesz party will seek to pass new legislation to prevent football hooliganism if it wins the next general elections, Fidesz leader Viktor Orban told soccer portal nb1.hu on Monday.
“I think the current regulations provide sufficient room for the teams to maintain order (during matches)… but if you think that further measures are needed, don’t hesitate to approach us after the elections,” Orban said.
Orbans’s remarks followed a scandalous Ferencvaros-Diosgyor match on Saturday, which was called off when groups of rowdy fans attempted to disrupt the game.
Welcome to your future, Hungary…
In the 70s Britain was in the same economic chaos you are now and what was its genius solution to its problems?
This is your future and one that Fidesz won’t fight, this is where we play our football. This is your future, the reality of the rest of Western Europe, look at it hard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1b9J8D3tOg
Unless you vote Jobbik in 2010, this is your last chance to stop it coming to you.
And WTF had this to do with football hooligans?
Except that all hooligans will vote for Jobbik. Not because they love Jobbik (they think Jobbik is a party for sissies), but sissies are better than the ‘jews and gyppos all other party consists of’.
Anonymous stop being a sissy and be a Man and get an alias at least. Or is that to hard for you?
-
A vote for Jobbik is a vote to support football hooliganism. No wonder the BNP-guy looked like one of them. How many years ban did he get?
I loved this post, so irrelevant and so replete with ironies: a Welsh speaker complaining about his ‘British’ identity being swamped: about 1200 years too late. But what does this suggest?
“Welcome to your future, Hungary…
In the 70s Britain was in the same economic chaos you are now and what was its genius solution to its problems?”
That Fidesz is proposing mass immigration to solve Hungary’s economic woes? Is this in fact a post against letting in post-Trianon/diaspora Hungarians.
Clarification please!
Say all you like. It’s going to happen why do you think the UNHCR started a new center in Hungary you idiots? You foreigners can wish and lie all you like I am not talking to you I am talking to Hungarian people.
Interesting! The only people on the video people here complain about are the white people! (az a három!) Watch it again and again and again until you see them on the Nagykörút. It is in EVERY western european country and moving east it is already happening in Austria…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/5994047/Muslim-Europe-the-demographic-time-bomb-transforming-our-continent.html
but you will let these people lie to you and fool you that it will not come here? Ha! They WANT it to happen here! So we cannot be stupid nationalists any more.
It is coming do you think your vote for FIDESZ or MSZP will stop it – or make it come faster? I would like more to live next to a Hungarian football hooligan than a Mecset – any REAL Magyar would! Ki nem? Csak egy hazudozó hazaáruló!
VOTE JOBBIK!!
A megmentésedhez utánunk nem jön senki!
And if you don’t you can live in this paradise of by Sophist and Viking when they are far away somewhere new.
When it happens you cannot say nobody warned you. YOU WERE WARNED TODAY
I take football hooligans any time over Jew Nazi vigilantes who murder Palestinian children
like I am not talking to you I am talking to Hungarian people
Anonymous at November 3, 2009 4:14 PM
—
Sissy is out again speaking to the “Hungarian people” on an English language speaking web-site.
Yeah, passed the intelligence test again, not.
///
I take football hooligans any time
Tom at November 3, 2009 5:42 PM
–
Where – in bed?
Maybe you and Sissy can make it out together, you seem to have a thing going there.
Maybe he can help you with your Hungarian?
You can always count on a Jew to slime and jew you. It comes so easy to them. Why are they so surprised that they are despised everywhere?
No “Tom” only YOU are hated everywhere. It’s very clear in your voice. Must not be fun to be you, eh?
How do you like being “Jewed” so far? You must not like it since your life consists of complaining about it 24/7 instead of working, like normal productive tax-paying people…
Same Jew, same slime…
Hi Tom and fellow truth seekers
Here is a link Metapedia is to become a web resource for pro-European activists. Metapedia makes it easy for our cadres to expand their knowledge on various important subjects, and also functions as a searchable reference.
Furthermore Metapedia gives us the opportunity to present a more balanced and fair image of the pro-European struggle for the general public as well as for academics, who until now have been dependent on strongly biased and hostile “researchers” like Searchlight, Anti-Defamation League, Southern Poverty Law Center, Simon Wiesenthal Centre, and such.
http://www.metapedia.org/mission.php
Thanks Law. It is good to get a post without the usual slime
“You foreigners can wish and lie all you like I am not talking to you I am talking to Hungarian people”
I showed your video link to a Hungarian today, she couldn’t work out what the point of the street scenes was, until I pointed out that the vast majority of the passers-by had brown or black faces. Racism is not a Hungarian problem, the problem with gypsies is a cultural / social problem. Please don’t import your white supremacist hang-ups here. I wouldn’t like to move back to the UK: my Hungarian wife and children are likely to victims of racist abuse.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100007443/meerkats-with-eastern-european-accents-%E2%80%93-racist/
Though absurdly made, our Mr/Ms Anonymous does makes a valid point.
Today marks the day when the Lisbon Treaty past its last hurdle, to implementation on the 1st of December. In doing so Hungary (like all European countries) will essentially be handing over its independent immigration policy, and much of its foreign policy, to Europe. This is simply a fact.
The Commission has for some time been making noises about compelling other European nations to take a much higher proportion of the sheer vast numbers of Third-World immigrants who have poured into Europe over the last decade. With the new powers afforded to it by Lisbon, it can enforce this intention. This is also a fact.
EU mulls immigration burden-sharing
It is also true, that immigration was indeed the prefered method by which European nations have sought (and failed in my view) to alleviate the threefold problems of a brain drain (in their case to the US in ours to W. Europe), economic depression and shrinking native populations.
Europe Faces Challenge of Aging Population
Who would deny that Hungary faces precisely these three challenges?
Sorry, two http-link limit compels a continuation…
(cont’d)
For a staggering examination of the history and facts of how W. Europe has faced these problems you could do a hell of a lot worse than consulting the truly excellent:
Reflections on the Revolution in Europe (Can Europe be the same with different peple in it?), by Christopher Caldwell.
As many had previously suspected, it is now being openly admitted to in some countries that yes, indeed, Leftists deliberately used mass immigration to make adovcates of the “far-”Right and Nationalists (by which we can presume they meant those dreadful xenophobes who dared to want to live in a country that resembled their own rather than Pakistan or Morocco) demographically obsolete.
They would simply have to swallow the faits accompli of multi-culturalism and political correctness, and consign themselves to irrelevance, in countries whose populations had been so massively changed. Needless to say, the electorate was not to ever be consulted over their views on this exercise.
The slow-motion New Labour putsch that swept our nation away.
When such a mass immigration move takes place, would the MSZP or Fidesz oppose it? Hell no! They’d most probably be its architects.
(cont’d)
And the crucial point is, with the passing of Lisbon, if the EU wanted it the only choice open to them would be how enthusiastically they would be forced to accept it. The forward planning and considerable investment necessary for the UNHCR (which doesn’t have money to burn) to start a centre in Hungary shows that they view this scenario to not be quite so far fetched… to put it mildly!
So very much so, in a worst case scenario the (wierdly Welsh) London BNP video of Wembley above could be how parts of Budapest look in as little as 20 years. Which if you think about it isn’t that long, it’s when your 10 year old son/daughter will start to have a family of their own. The incredulity with which you read those last sentences is exactly how the Dutch, the Danish, the Spanish, and the French felt 20 years ago too. “Impossible!,” “Never happen!,” “Paranoia!” and now?
Would the only party on the docket that would oppose this reality with all its might be Jobbik? Yep. Moan all you like, but it’s just the way it is.
I await the usual tedious barrage of allegations about my politics, and or the supposed “biased” efficacy of my references, which asidiously avoids addressing the facts. But I’ll tell you now you’re wasting your time. I’ll take the actual $$$s investment of a UN agency as a more compelling piece of evidence than the usual hysterical smearing and catterwauling of Leftys, or the conspiracy theorizing of Stormfront addled turbo-Nazis, any day.
Yawn.
How’s that for ya?
@Bob
Facts are facts. I’m sorry you find them boring, people who have a rather tendentious relationship with them very often do…
You have a right to your opinion and that is fine — Freedom of Speech is a great thing.
But, PLEASE put the dictionary down! “Tendentious?” What else can the use of that word BE, but an attempt to try and show that you are intelligent.
Your commentary showed that (even if I disagree) you are somewhat of a “thoughtful” person. You don’t need to slam it in people’s faces by using vocabulary that was stilted even back in 1900…
Just a thought — as they say in America, “keep it real” — and you are of course entitled to your (wrong… haha) opinion!
@BobsWhatever: I’m with @Bob. Anyway, BobsWhatever,
you know yourself that word doesn’t make any in that
sentence: ‘tendentious relationship’ is a
relationship tending to be like or tending to
something etc… It does not mean having a loose or
weak relationship with something, as you seemed to
want to say.
Perhaps you meant to say ‘tangential relationship’?
Why not go the full monty with ‘orthogonally
antithetical relationship’.
Jobbik and BNP really are working closely together
aren’t they BobsWhatever? When are you back in
Hungary BobsWhatever?
[Really have to get off, just curious to see what
bollocks is being spouted.]
@Vándorlófaszazanyádpicsájába
Uh-huh, because the one thing I’ve been lacking so far, is YOU, telling ME, what I really mean. What was that sound? Oh yes. That’s me falling of my chair into a fit of hysterics.
Christ at least @Bob wasn’t ashamed to admit that he looked it up in his dictionary…
I must say the total lack of engagement with the actual facts and arguments, and the personal abuse in particular, is pretty much going exactly as forecast.
At Politics.hu it’s very much the way you’re assured that your points’ have actually hit their mark. How gratifying.
Now if you’ll excuse me children, Daddy’s got bigger fish to fry.
I think Bob was attempting to say “people who have an inverse cosine relationship with the arctangential plane re: the circumferential chords we strike as nonlinear members of a group consisting exclusively of Jobbik rabble” etc.
Let us know how those aquarian vertebrates turn out in their lipidinous thermometric processes etc.!
Since you have much to do of course you will be able to resist the urge to come back here and comment again, no?
As a mathematician I’d say Bob…’s ramblings have nothing to do with trigonometry, topology or group theory, they are rather an example of “Non Aristotelian Logic” – invented by the science fiction author A E van Vogt…
Bob had a point? Who bothered to read that nonsense? I skimmed it and it basically said Jobbik is great in between some scattered opinions… Gee you truly are a misunderstood genius whose words the uneducated masses surely must repress!
@BobsWhatever: I didn’t use a dictionary jackass.
I have nothing to declare, apart from my….
I don’t have time now. Next week I’ll get back to
you (I did say earlier I shouldn’t be here).
I have always answered all your points in full.
You never responded to the points I put about your
attempt at lying about you not being BNPFan and
then signing on under a different name to hold a
conversation with yourself about how, though
BNPFan’s opinions’ were strange you could find
your way to agree with them…at which point you
launched into flatulent diatribe.
Much the same as happened here. Boring,
BobsWhatever, boring.
Will get back to you on the details later. It’s
not like you haven’t spent all day writing that
shit yourself, anyway.
p.s. Have the decency to admit that’s what you
wanted to say/express, but fucked up trying to
sound smart.
@Vándorlófaszazanyádpicsájába
I didn’t use a dictionary jackass.
@Foolingabsolutelynoone
I think Bob was attempting to say “people who have an inverse cosine relationship with the arctangential plane re: the circumferential chords we strike as nonlinear members of a group consisting exclusively of Jobbik rabble” etc.
@Bobs at November 3, 2009 10:49 PM
(cont’d)
I particularly liked the back-handed dismissal by “Bystander” intended to cap off 4 seperate comments whose only possible purpose can be to disuade people from actually reading and being acquainted with the facts.
Namely, “Bob had a point? Who bothered to read that nonsense? I skimmed it and it basically said Jobbik is great in between some scattered opinions…” Who do you think you are fooling, whoever-you-are? Not me, and certainly not anyone else. You’re as transparent as cellophane.
As I always say folks, read and judge for yourselves folks. Read and judge for yourselves.
http://www.politics.hu/20091102/orban-says-fidesz-to-seek-new-measures-against-football-hooliganism#c13
And my fine friend, they are. They are reading it… Screw your face up and curse and pound your little fists all you like.
Like the man/woman said earlier. You have been warned.
Nice try, but seriously, get a life.
The forward planning and considerable investment necessary for the UNHCR (which doesn’t have money to burn) to start a centre in Hungary shows that they view this scenario to not be quite so far fetched… to put it mildly!
bobscountrybunker at November 3, 2009 9:49 PM
—
So what is the meaning with this comment?
That UNCHR is making a big refugee camp out of Hungary?
Or, as UNCHR themselves write:
“UNHCR is establishing a Global Learning Centre”
…
“the relocation of the departments resulted in larger savings than foreseen earlier. This means the UNHCR will be able maintain its level of activities in spite of a 10% budget loss due the global economic crisis”
—
Or you check out
http://tinyurl.com/ygzb8uw
and find the facts about this step to move some part of the UNCHR organisation from Geneva to Budapest.
-
“Budapest turned out to be the best option for a number of reasons: costs of transition, accessibility, convenience of time zone, availability of languages other than English, privileges and immunities as well as government support.
The Hungarian Government has offered UNHCR top class premises in the centre of Budapest. They are provided free of charge and include the equipment, furnishing and maintenance of those offices”
-
*How does this change EU Immigration-policy?*
Deceiving argumentation
And yet the article you link to about the swelling of staff at the UNHCR’s Hungarian centre, is dated 13 June 2007, but of course the move was made to “maintain [the UNHCR's] level of activities in spite of a 10% budget loss due the global economic crisis,” as you say.
Even though the sub-prime collapse, through Bear Stearns, only pushed into the market in July of that year. And the Libor rate only peaked (the point at which banks stopped lending to each other) in September 2007. Wow how prescient! They must have been the only people to have foreseen the sheer immensity of the crash, those boffins at the UNHCR clearly had more financial acumen than those dullards at Lehman Brothers.
Deceiving argumentation indeed… Viking you never change, your ability to spout nonsense is matched only by your ability to swallow it.
And I look forward to continuing to ignore it, for the undiluted trágya that it is: as always.
the article you link to about the swelling of staff at the UNHCR’s Hungarian centre, is dated 13 June 2007, but of course the move was made to “maintain [the UNHCR's] level of activities in spite of a 10% budget loss due the global economic crisis,” as you say
bobscountrybunker at November 4, 2009 1:03 AM
—
I could not get in 2 links in my posts.
I seem to be allowed only one (I have 2 posts stopped due to that), so here comes the link that was from an article from the same website on the News that refers to the current increase of staff:
http://www.unhcr-budapest.org/index.php/news/156-budapest-an-excellent-choice-for-unhcr
-
This is the move you use as the “proof” that EU is preparing mass-immigration.
As usual you did not answer that question, then you never answers questions.
Viking will not be satisfied until he sees a piece of paper with Barroso’s signature in blood called, “EU Immigration Plan Alpha: Step 1 – Demographically Destory Hungary.” What he rather conveniently omits to mention, is that it has taken decades for the achitects of mass Western European immigration to even come to remotely admitting their true motives in this regard.
e.g. the The slow-motion New Labour putsch that swept our nation [the UK] away article linked to earlier.
Quote, “Apparently thinking nobody would notice, he then revealed that there had been ‘a driving political purpose: that mass immigration was the way that the UK Government was going to make the UK truly multicultural’.
He recalled coming away from high-level discussions ‘with a clear sense that the policy was intended – even if this wasn’t its main purpose – to rub the Right’s nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date’.”
And the whole point of such projects is to keep the electorate in the dark while making damn sure they don’t have any say in what is being done to them whatsoever. Germany, Austria, Spain, the Netherlands, Belgium EVERY Western European country deliberately “enriched” (also for the socio-economic reasons cited above – Comment #13) by mass 3rd world immigration has followed this exact same model. It’s simply undeniable.
(cont’d)
For Hungary the clues and evidence are all there and pointing unambiguously in one direction, if you know how to read them.
European Refugee Fund 2008-2013 – Hungary
Quote, “The launch of this multiannual programme constitutes the expression of the financial solidarity of the European Union towards a Member State like Hungary, which is faced with significant challenges in this area.”
No similar exclusive document is addressed to/about any other Eastern European EU nation.
Or this Sub-Regional Operations Profile – Central Europe and the Baltic States document from the UNHCR.
Scroll down a take a good look at the budget figures, and how that for Hungary massively dwarfs that of any other European nation cited.
(cont’d)
Don’t fool yourselves, for the likes of Sophist or Viking or Vándorló or @Bob/@Bobs/wolfi/Bystander (or whoever) up until the actual point where Pestszentlőrinc looks more like Peckham:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSJcgDH06wE
…everything can just be explained away as unsubstantiated, alarmist or secretly xenophobic. And don’t discount the suspicion that this reality is what they’re secretly after in the first place, to get rid of all those annoying Nationalist xenophobes who will just insist on keeping their country as their own. The bigots.
Don’t believe me? This is exactly the line that has been taken by Leftists in the rest of Europe, and is still(!) being taken by them despite the realities that the above video demonstrates.
I don’t underestimate it, neither should you. And I hope you are wise enough to be deeply suspicious of all those who would want to cajole you into just looking the other way and pretending that everything’s going to be just fine; and then castigate you as a moron if you dare linger and reflect and look further.
It’s not my job to take everyone to school (but Caldwell’s book is a very good start indeed) because, “there are none so blind than those who will not see.”
There is a great great deal more evidence besides, you just have to scratch the surface: you’ll be staggered.
Yes, please go and read the Press Release on:
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/08/1862&type=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en
about the “European Refugee Fund 2008-2013 – Hungary”
-
What is it about?
Schengen, just that, Schengen.
Bob like to surround himself with a sphere of being intellectual. Of course one should never equal intellectual with intelligent. The one does mean the other.
Let us go through this Press Release:
“The European Refugee Fund is one of the four financial instruments of the general programme on “Solidarity and Management of Migration Flows” which encourages a fair share of responsibilities between Member States arising from the introduction of integrated management of the external borders of the Member States of the European Union and from the implementation of common policies on asylum and immigration. The other three Funds are: the European Fund for the Integration of Third country nationals, the External Borders Fund and the Return Fund”
–
Hungary became a “Border State” when it joined the Schengen area. The European Refugee Fund (ERF) is the money Hungary will get to take care of the asylum seekers that actually make it over the Schengen-border.
Bob wants of course Hungarian Tax Payer should pay this, or more correct, if there was no fund, he would demand it. Bob will always say the opposite, just to be opposite. Reminds i bit like a 3-year old child. The typical attitude for a populist.
—
Cont…
Cont..
-
Secondly, Bob scream a lot over what the EU calls “the general programme on “Solidarity and Management of Migration Flows” which encourages a fair share of responsibilities between Member States”
-
This is basically to stop with the old policy of ’1st country of entry’ for illegal immigrants.
The old policy meant that an illegal immigrant that was picked up in Germany, but could be proven to have arrived into the EU via Italy, sould be sent back to Italy.
This old policy did not make the Border States so happy, then they had to process everyone.
The new ideas is to distribute the burden more even and for that there is a special EU Fund.
-
Alos Bob will speak a lot about “the implementation of common policies on asylum and immigration”.
This follows from giving up the old ’1st country of entry’-praxis. If all member states are suppose to share the burden, they must of course also align themselves on common policies on which asylum seekers to accept and which not to accept.
In general this will mean a harder/tougher stance than earlier, especially as more immigration is not seen extremely positive in most places in Europe. Especially not after the Western part have to carry the burden to integrate the Eastern part. And the Thank-You they got for that was work-places moved from West-Europe to East-Europe.
-
It is therefore a bit strange that a British import is screaming his head off for this BNP-propaganda which is hardly the most relevant question in Hungary today.
And of course Bob has not yet answered how the expansion of the UNCHR-office in Budapest has anything to do with EU-policy on immigration.
-
UNCHR belongs to the United Nation.
EU is a part of the United Nation, but that does not mean that the United Nation works for the EU.
NB that UNCHR is not mentioned in the Press Release Bob refers to.
But such logic is way over Bob’s horizon.
-
No wonder Bob picked his alias from one of the most intelligent characters in Blues Brothers:
Bob with his Country Bunker.
They have all kinds of music.
Both Country *and* Western.
-
Bob in a nutshell.
“Scream alot”?
“British import”?
“Screaming their head off”?
Where does he get his trágya from? Viking couldn’t be more of a worn-out Leftist cliché if he actually tried.
A reasoned, calm, nuanced, referenced argument is presented. It is plain to everyone. In fact his own quotation (expected to be some sort of rebuttal) actually proves the very point being made.
“The general programme on Solidarity and Management of Migration Flows which encourages a fair share of responsibilities between Member States… is basically to stop with the old policy of ’1st country of entry’ for illegal immigrants. The old policy meant that an illegal immigrant that was picked up in Germany, but could be proven to have arrived into the EU via Italy, sould be sent back to Italy. This old policy did not make the Border States so happy, then they had to process everyone. The new idea is is to distribute the burden more evenly and for that there is a special EU Fund.” (What does this numbnuts actually think this means in practise? Jesus!)
But no, the opponent can’t possibly be engaged with rationally, because Viking knows that as soon as he did, his hollow-ass nonsense wouldn’t stand up to a second’s scrutiny. So what does he do – yet again?
Why the opponent is “screaming” or (magic, talk about hypocrisy!) a “foreigner” or horror-of-horrors a “populist”; just pile on the self-evident bullshit.
What an utterly useless old stereotype.
Really, the man’s a joke.
How much of a joke?
“And of course Bob has not yet answered how the expansion of the UNCHR-office in Budapest has anything to do with EU-policy on immigration.”
For someone who calls people 3 year olds when he cannot think of a way to refute their arguments, his own capacity for reasoning is glaringly infantile.
The UNHCR (yes I have worked for them) does not wait until there are refugees before it establishes a centre of operations. It predicts and preempts. So it makes judgements about possible likely future refugee flows (particularly when it has top-level diplomatic relationships that give it information not available to the public e.g. the EU and their future immigration strategy) on the data it has.
Now everyone remembers that exercise in school where they had to place a steel factory in the right place: near to the railway, and the iron mine, and the water… remember? You put your infrastructure where it will be most needed.
“NYUUURRRGH” (*making Neanderthal face in Viking’s direction while miming the sight of two rocks being bashed together* – in the hope that the blatantly obvious will pentrate the moron’s mind).
Bobs.
Thanks for responding to my request for clarification.
I’ll try to write something more substantial about the prospects for ‘mass immigration’ in Hungary later. In the meantime
“The UNHCR (yes I have worked for them) does not wait until there are refugees before it establishes a centre of operations. It predicts and preempts. So it makes judgements about possible likely future refugee flows (particularly when it has top-level diplomatic relationships that give it information not available to the public e.g. the EU and their future immigration strategy) on the data it has.”
Well, it would be stupid not to, but the opening of a regional centre in Hungary is not evidence that Hungary is being uniquely targeted for ‘mass immigration’. Check out this map of their regional deployment: Hungary would seem to the right choice for a regional centre.
http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/page?page=49e48df06
Unless you think the Ukraine is being similarly targeted.
@bobscountrybunker
“I await the usual tedious barrage of allegations about my politics, and or the supposed “biased” efficacy of my references, which asidiously avoids addressing the facts.”
You did not have to wait for long
However, I believe that you forget that there is growing resentment of EU and its dictatorial, nation destroying ways. The voices of opposition will only get louder as the EU tries to assert its totalitarian rule over nations that only recently gained their independence.
Those who enslave others often pay a heavy price for it, as they should
The new idea is is to distribute the burden more evenly and for that there is a special EU Fund.” (What does this numbnuts actually think this means in practise? Jesus!)
bobscountrybunker at November 4, 2009 4:27 AM
–
So, this was the essence of your rebuttal “(What does this numbnuts actually think this means in practise? Jesus!)”.
So, what *does* it mean?
You explain it to be different than taking care of the illegal immigrants already here?
How does this mean *more* immigration, which is *your* claim?
=========
The UNHCR (yes I have worked for them) does not wait until there are refugees before it establishes a centre of operations. It predicts and preempts
bobscountrybunker at November 4, 2009 4:52 AM
—
If this is your argument for UNCHR (not the EU) is preparing for mass-immigration in Hungary, then you please explain how Switzerland, from where they moved originally was not the target of the previous mass-immigration?
As you may know Switzerland is associated to the Schengen-agreement and it has no out-of EU borders, so it is hard for it to be a Border State if you do not fly in. So how was Switzerland the previous target for mass-immigration, given your logic?
===
Bob’s Country Bunker is a place in the movie, not a person
bobscountrybunker at November 4, 2009 4:52 AM
—
Yes, I think that was understandable, but *who* was the owner of that nice establishment?
And do you deny that the wife of the owner (co-owner?) did make that statement on music?
Bobs.,
“The incredulity with which you read those last sentences is exactly how the Dutch, the Danish, the Spanish, and the French felt 20 years ago too.”
A look at the distinct histories of immigration to each of these countries gives the lie to a European wide policy of mass immigration. Just to focus on main source of Islamic (I have a socio-cultural axe to grind) immigrants to these countries shows that each is a product of each countries own immigration policy. In the UK the most significant source is the Indian subcontinent (we had an Empire there, remember) likewise France in North Africa, Holland an empire in Indonesia – they also invited guest workers from Morroco and Turkey. Denmark has a large population of Turks (guest workers) Arabs (refugees). Important for Viking is the origin of Sweden’s Islamic population Iragi and Yugoslav (i.e. entirely refugees).
Hungary has never had a global empire, there is no large group of Muslims whom Hungary has ever governed and may feel residually responsible for, or who feel familiar with the language and institutions of Hungary. In fact, this is more pertinant, given the standard of living and economic opportunities to migrants in Hungary (we have an underclass already) the problem will be keeping them in any proposed camps rather than keeping them out – see the problems the French are having keeping their own Euro-allocation in France.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8127754.stm
1.
This will be my last post on this subject, sorry folks. I made it clear right at the start: it is not my job to take people to school; you will see below how much time, length and effort it takes. And if my boss spies me doing this I’m f*cking sunk, it’s the last time I waste my lunch hour on people who would much rather believe what they want to believe rather than the evidence.
You’re just going to have to do the rest of the work yourselves. Seriously, why should I spend/waste all my precious time trying to convince those who are determined not see?
Two comments are worthy of a response:
@Sophist
“A look at the distinct histories of immigration to each of these countries gives the lie to a European wide policy of mass immigration… Important for Viking is the origin of Sweden’s Islamic population Iraqi and Yugoslav (i.e. entirely refugees). Hungary has never had a global empire, there is no large group of Muslims whom Hungary has ever governed and may feel residually responsible for, or who feel familiar with the language and institutions of Hungary.”
(There is no point in being alarmist and pointing out that, ahem, the global empire bit in Hungary’s history worked the other way round. And it was in fact a large group of Muslims in the dim and distant past who were governing Hungary! Yes ancient history I know…
2.
…or is it in fact precisely the Caliphate that people like Hizb ut-Tahrir, Al-Muhajiroun, the Muslim Brotherhood etc. are striving to see returned? But at this stage Islam clouds the issue, we will reintroduce it later.)
Sophist, you fail to see the inherent contradictions in your assertions, Sweden had no global empire and yet it faces an enormous immigrant population that totally dominates (85%+) places like Rinkeby, Bergsjön, Tensta and Malmö.
Take a deep breath and consider this most excellent turn of phrase by Caldwell, “the justifications [for immigration] keep shifting: now growth, now welfare; now the benefit to the host society, now the benefit to the immigrants themselves[; now the results of colonialism]. Immigration is a fait accompli for which people are scrambling to find a rationale.”
You are either being dishonest or are not acquainted with the realities. Simply put, immigration to Europe began as a national issue and then became a Europe-wide one. In countries like Germany (in the 50s) they wanted experts and workers and let them in selectively, in the UK it was citizenship realities that made it happen but motives were similar. What permitted it to happen to the scale it did were things like holocaust/colonialism guilt (it could never have happened at any other time in European history), which has morphed into a kind of self-hatred by Europeans of their own culture and heritage.
3.
But the most crucial factor of all was the desire to “top up” existing aging populations. When the populations were topped up the tap would be switched off.
But the tap CAN’T be switched off. Country’s in fact become addicted to immigration. If you have immigrants because there are certain jobs which your own natives won’t do, as soon as those immigrants become assimilated, they immediately become by definition the kind of people who won’t do those kinds of jobs: so you require even more immigrants.
Also the guilt and obsession with anti-Racism of European nations means that deportation simply doesn’t REALLY exist as a statistical factor. All those countries that vetted those technical immigrants abandoned those schemes as too costly first, and then the requirements for them to return later. And what you have now in many parts of Western Europe is not really “immigration” at all, it is essentially “ethnic colonisation.” Where people from the third world don’t come to Europe because they yearn to live as Europeans. They come to live as Pakistanis, or Bengalis, or Moroccans who just happen to be in Europe for the standard of living. (The videos linked to earlier show this most eloquently.) And they soon learn how to manipulate the system.
In Spain for example, if you cannot identify the country of origin of an illegal immigrant you have to let him out into the general population after 40 days. That’s the law.
4.
So if you are a Senegalese and have made the arduous trip, you just have to pretend you are from a country which has the same language but is war torn, usually Côte d’Ivoire. Once you’ve done your 40 days, out you go. The massive numbers in Spain forced (long story) governments to make blank amnesties of illegals twice in the last decade.
So what happened because of Schengen? Why people who had been living as illegals for decades in Belgium say, used Schengen to travel to Spain and become naturalized Spanish citizens because of the amnesty, and then returned to Belgium totally legal. They now can’t be sent back.
Not only can’t you turn the tap off but it rapidly turns into a torrent. Most German Turks, or British Bengalis, or Dutch Moroccans do not marry into the indigenous population. They in fact deliberately go home to find a spouse. So they return with a wife who becomes a naturalized citizen and then her parents, grandparents, siblings etc. also then have a legal claim to residence because it’s un-European to “keep families apart.” So the 20 year prediction is NOT alarmist, because immigration from these communities means that populations swell TWICE during a life cycle, at marriage AND at birth.
5.
It is here that Islam becomes an issue. The current propensity (excluding the UK) of Muslim immigration into Europe simply has to do with the fact that these countries border Europe to the South and South-East. BUT, whereas Caribbean 1st generation immigrants have 4-6 children, by the 2nd and 3rd generations their birth rate falls to the 1-2 of the native community.
This simply does not happen in Muslim communities, not only do birth rates retain their size despite the fact that the people may in fact be born in the host nation, something else also happens.
We presume that assimilation just takes place as a matter of course over time, but all the evidence shows (viz. France and Holland) that as 1st generation become 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims, by and large they become MORE alienated, MORE separate, MORE attached to their religion. (And the reaction of all European nations has been either to deny this fact, or ascribe it – as always – to the twin forces of “social injustice” or “indigenous racism;” and not the underlying culture-clash.) Polygamous relationships (now far from uncommon) swell numbers even further.
6.
So you have situations where some Western European nations are essentially facing extinction as we know them. Austria could well be 50% Muslim by 2050.
http://diepresse.com/home/wirtschaft/economist/515347/index.do
A Dutch philosopher basically said, look, Holland is a country whose culture is art and literature. When Muslims start to become 40%+ in the population (they are already the majority in Amsterdam and Rotterdam) and there is a budget choice as to whether to spend the country’s money on building another Mosque or restoring a Rembrandt what makes you think the population will not say, why should we waste any money on this stupid painting?
The belief, desperately held, by European elites that Muslims in Europe will somehow spontaneously secularise is also crashingly naive. As said above, as generations progress they become more attached (in comparison to a Western European culture that despises itself and is desperate to call itself equal, if not inferior, to their own through multi-culturalism); especially as what allowed for secularisation of Christianity (plain ridicule by the likes of Voltaire for example) is strictly forbidden by Islam.
7.
In fact we have been desperately engaged in passing “hate speech” legislation that makes such criticism illegal, to say nothing about the sheer ability to muzzle that the propensity for violence precipitates: artists are no longer free, and each one before he puts pen to paper thinks of Theo Van Gogh lying dead on the pavement with a knife sticking out of his belly.
(The Stormfront Nazi types here, might also like to know that the most anti-Semitic country in Europe is in fact France. 2% of whose Jewish population has already left. In 2006 there were half a dozen anti-Semitic attacks being reported in France… every day; being exclusively committed by North Africans. This is the kind of reality that the wonderful mental handcuffs of the Leftists, for whom of course only whites can be hate-mongers, prevent us from addressing.)
The point is that all the nations of Western Europe, are groaning – positively groaning – under the weight of these massive demographic changes. And the flow is not slowing down, it is accelerating. Almost every major Western political problem can in fact be traced to immigration, because if you list them country by country 90% can be linked to either infrastructure failing due to over capacity, or hyper-demand eroding their previously envious welfare states. What has caused this are these massive population spikes in such a short time. (Which of course governments naturally claim are all planned: what fools they’d look like if they didn’t!)
8.
To take the UK population as an example (1,600 mosques and rising). It has grown from 50m in 1950 to 60m in 2005 and is projected to rise to 70m by 2030 (!!!). Nip off Scotland and Wales, and England is now the world’s third most crowded country after Bangladesh and South Korea.
All Western European nations are paralyzed, utterly paralyzed, by the reality of massive immigration that is only increasing; and they are desperate to do something (anything!) to lighten their burden. The two countries where this is happening in the greatest numbers are France and Germany – the Euro power block, who if they collaborate can push anything through the EU they like, and always have. With the passing of the Lisbon Treaty local immigration policy is now totally in the hands of European bureaucrats: NOT Hungarian ones. This dovetails with my answer to…
—–
@Vándorló
I think we can make some progress if we can agree on some basic premises.
First, let us discount as utter nonsense (no change there then!) Viking’s supposed damning assertion that the UNHCR move was made (as they would like us to believe) because of the credit crunch. We have amply demonstrated that the move was planned long before this. What information might have been available to the UNHCR at that time?
(1) Knowledge of the immigration consequences of the coming Lisbon Treaty. And that the EU wouldn’t stop until it was passed.
9.
(2) Certainty over increasing Europe-wide immigration pressure which Western nations are desperate to do something about.
(3) The fact that Hungary of all Eastern European nations has the most dire low-birth rate/aging population of all.
(4) That (if the decision was made in early ’07) Hungary already had one, and was about to have another MSZP/SZDSZ-type government, one of whose central missions (in addition to the media) was stamping out nationalism; and introducing/enforcing things like multi-culturalism and PC – certainly much more than any other E. European nation.
(5) That population growth is only really represented by the Roma, who are in fact a net burden on the economy and not contributors to it.
(6) That Hungary is, demographically, the most ethnically homogenous country in E. Europe. To be crude, to begin with it is the most ethnically undiluted, so it is the one which can be diluted the most.
So, second, the only question that remains to be asked is whether or not the Western European nations want to share their massive immigration burden. And the answer to this is an uncontradictable, “Yes! Desperatley!!…” (As the Euractiv link I gave earlier shows.)
Which countries in Europe do not currently bear such a burden? Only the ones in the East. And of all the fruit hanging on the tree, which apple is the most ripe for the plucking? Given 1-6 above, clearly it’s Hungary.
10.
So to sum up the issue of an EU programme of surging immigration into Eastern Europe (post Lisbon) in general, and Hungary (as the best option) in particular:
They want to do it. (Burden sharing)
The can do it. (Lisbon)
They no doubt feel they should do it. (Economic/demographic arguments)
They’d face no real governmental opposition if they did do it. (Certainly not from the MSZP or Fidesz – who’d merrily lube up their own asses for even the hint of being able to graft some Euro-cash; only Jobbik would oppose it. Sorry, but it’s true)
Therefore, if you bear in mind that the whole point of such projects is to keep the populace in the dark for as long as you possibly can, the only thing open to you is trying to find evidence that supports the assertion that they are making preparations to do it…
Look again at that EU document I linked earlier, the “European Refugee Fund 2008-2013 – Hungary” which stated, “The launch of this multiannual programme constitutes the expression of the financial solidarity of the European Union towards a Member State like Hungary, which is faced with significant challenges in this area.” Viking would have you believe, no, oh no, this is just about Schengen… nothing more than Schengen.
11.
W-T-F? As I said before, Hungary is the ONLY E. European country about which such a document exists. There is no comparable one about Poland or Romania (each of whose non-Schengen borders dwarf our own by about three to one).
Now there are a huge amount of people on both sides of Hungarian politics, who actually, yes they actually do, believe that this immigration avalanche having hit every other European nation and moving East will somehow just magically stop at Hegyeshalom or Csenger respectively. This thing that has been demonstrated to happen everywhere else, won’t possibly happen here they say (while also telling you in all credulity that millions of flights are being booked through EL AL as we speak) because we don’t have the West’s standard of living.
As if it wasn’t only, merely, a matter of time before people whose background is say in rural Syria, considering an evening’s entertainment to be either eating more camel dung for dinner or having the rest of their fingernails pulled out by the Mukhabarat; think to themselves, “You know, the idea of a 13th month bonus and being actually paid by the state to have children sounds like a pretty sweet deal in comparison.” Remember the Spain example. The migrants go wherever the legal framework for them to go is the easiest to penetrate: this legal framework for Hungary, given Lisbon, is now completely in the hands of Eurocrats.
Let that sink in.
12.
In effect, the Eurocrats have the gun in their hands. What everyone else here is saying on this issue is essentially, yeah, they do have the gun in their hands, but (*stifling their own disbelieving laughter*) they’d never fire it! And what I’m saying, is that given that they have the gun in their hands, it’s not only a matter of time before they do fire it – because they REALLY do want to, but also, subtle preparations are clearly being made which imply that they’re actually about to.
Moreover, call me paranoid all you like (I don’t think I have a reputation for it, though I’m sure the trolls will disagree) but given all these circumstances I refuse to believe that the UNHCR centre’s location and the massive budget hike that UNHCR operations in Hungary has by comparison (also linked to above) is merely geographically coincidental.
In fact, I’d go so far as to say that anyone who maintained as rational the position that it was coincidental was either being deliberately deceptive (for their own ulterior motives) or very very foolish indeed.
And to the relief of everyone and myself that’s my final word on this subject, and anyone who doesn’t like it, or through whose brain these facts haven’t penetrated: can suck my balls.
I can’t agree with you more bobscountrybunker!!!! Hungary still can stop this mass immigration, like the one who is still taking place in western europe….before they will face the same problems…
it is so true what you write and the hungarian people have to be warned and have to wake up fast because mass immigration is exactly what they want to do….and those Fidesz guys are in this….
I saw those western europian cities changing…it is almost impossible to understand it could happen and I am sure most hungarians can not imagine it would happen to Budapest or other parts of the country, but it is already there Nigerians, arabs ect in Bp…more and more…
In a country with those kind of problems as Hungary? What are those immigrants doing here
Keep warning the people!!!!!
Bobs.
“Sophist, you fail to see the inherent contradictions in your assertions, Sweden had no global empire and yet it faces an enormous immigrant population that totally dominates (85%+) places like Rinkeby, Bergsjön, Tensta and Malmö”
No contradiction, Sweden invited all these refugees, as to why ask Viking. My point is that each country’s immigration history is unique not a Euroconspiracy. You think this was part of secret annex to Sweden’s accession?
Bobs.,
“Immigration is a fait accompli for which people are scrambling to find a rationale.”
Agreed, but is the result of poor foresight and mismanagement rather than a Euroconspiracy.
Bobs.,
“But the most crucial factor of all was the desire to “top up” existing aging populations. When the populations were topped up the tap would be switched off.”
Where’s the evidence for this? In the 1960s when ex-colonial Immigration really kicked off in the UK, the was no ageing population issue and a labour shortage.
Bobs.,
” as soon as those immigrants become assimilated, they immediately become by definition the kind of people who won’t do those kinds of jobs: so you require even more immigrants.”
Now this is interesting, I would argue that once the immigrants (or more likely their children) have assimilated they are no longer immigrants, So what you have is a steady level of immigrants in the polity, not an ever rising tide. Both Hungary and the UK Histories are full of significant waves of Immigration. To return to our Welsh friend, when the Anglo-saxons turned up in the UK they weren’t Christian but the Britons were (hence our Arthur legends), over time the Anglo-saxons were assimilated to Christianity, and now our Welsh friend thinks he’s the same as us, but not like those dark skinned chappies.
The interesting question is: is modern secularism as attractive for Muslims now as Christianity was to Anglo-saxon pagans then?
Bobs.,
“So the 20 year prediction is NOT alarmist, because immigration from these communities means that populations swell TWICE during a life cycle, at marriage AND at birth.”
Very primitive demographics, you can’t extrapolate in strict geometric progression. Because the longitudinal evidence suggests the fertility of immigrants assimilates to the societal norms (this is well documented for 3 generation afro-carribean families in the UK). Again interestingly, the fertility of affluent white Europeans has now started to rise.
Their is a problem here but it the relationship between the immigration rate and the assimilation rate rather than the immigration rate alone.
For people like Bob…. of course there has to be a secret reason behind everything, that is typical for fans of conspiration theories (I almost wrote constipation…).
The facts are completely different. For example in Germany, when in the 50s and 60s the “Wirtschaftswunder” happened, German industry needed a lot of workers, qualified and unqualified. So first we had a lot of Italians coming in (as a student, working through the holidays, most of my coworkers at Mercedes Benz were Italians), the a wave of Spaniards (one of my relatives had a lot of them working in his building company), later the Greeks and a lot of people from Yugoslavia. The last wave was the Turkish people coming mainly as unskilled workers.
What nobody had expected was that many of these liked the life in Germany so much, that they stayed here, opened small businesses, especially restaurants (which was very good for us, trying new things in cooking!), but also shops…
Most of their children are well integrated, for example the new head of the green part is a young Turkish guy.
The latest waves are something completely different: People fleeing their home countries because of war, civil war or extreme poverty.
Obviously it would be much better to help those people in thei countries instead of having them come into Europ, often unskilled and without knowing the language. But I am not a politician – and I have no easy solution for this…
Bobs.,
“This simply does not happen in Muslim communities, not only do birth rates retain their size despite the fact that the people may in fact be born in the host nation, something else also happens”
Doesn’t it?
“In Austria, for example, Muslim women had a total fertility rate (an estimate of lifetime births per woman) of 3.1 children per woman in 1981, well above the 1.7 average for the majority Roman Catholic women. By 2001, the rate for Catholics had fallen to 1.3, but the Muslim rate had fallen to 2.3—leaving a difference of just one child per woman between Muslims and non-Muslims.”
http://www.prb.org/Articles/2008/muslimsineurope.aspx
The situation in France is similar, but different in the UK because so much Islamic immigration in the UK is quite recent. Try “East is East” for a anecdotal account of long-term Pakistani presence in the UK.
Bobs.,
“(And the reaction of all European nations has been either to deny this fact, or ascribe it – as always – to the twin forces of “social injustice” or “indigenous racism;” and not the underlying culture-clash.)”
This is again interesting, alienation is coming from the 2nd generation Muslim immigrants (see the bios of the 7/7 bombers) But that is due to them feeling they have reached a glass ceiling in the assimilation process. Indigenous racism is a problem in post imperial countries, it became part of the rationale for our rule their. It was also successfully exported to Germany – the Nazi leadership thought they were immitating Anglo-saxon expansion in North America etc. My feeling is that their is no glass ceiling for Hungary’s gypsies, I wish British Nationalist would stop trying to peruade Hungarians that their problems with the Gypsies are racial – its a dead end, you can change your behaviour but you can’t change your skin colour (look at poor Michael Jackson).
I agree there is a culture clash exaccerbated by Multiculturalism – behaviour has to change for assimilation to take place.
@Sophist: Just on the Malthusian nonsense
BobsWhatever spouts about Muslim demographics, the
BBC checked a lot of the misleading stats a while
back:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/more_or_less
/8189434.stm
There is also an interesting article on fertility
in this week’s economist:
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?
story_id=14743589
Bob never answered my questions a few months ago
about immigration statistics for Hungary. My guess
he knows absolutely nothing about them.
Hope you all take him to pieces on this.
Bobs.,
thanks for the exchange of views. I apologise for reiterating points that you also made later in your posts – I had to work quickly, the kids are in the bath.
Just to make it completely clear what my own views are. I am happy to live away from the social and political problems that Western Europe is experiencing through the unsurpsing failure of multiculturalism to assimilate its minorities. By upbringing I am a racist, though I have always been uncomfortable with racism. However, I remain an ardent culturalist, and think there is still a lot of value in Hungarian culture. I also feel that both foreign nationalists and liberals are projecting their own cultural predispositions onto the Hungarian reality – this forum is eloquent testimony to that.
I am just not persuaded that Hungary is an attractive target for “mass immigration”; or the EU can make Hungary a refugee camp for unwanted immigrants – try Malta; or that any Hungarian political party would want to make it so: shortage of labour is not a problem here, and we have a butt load to gypsies to do those unpleasant jobs that English people won’t do any more.
@Sophist
“So what you have is a steady level of immigrants in the polity, not an ever rising tide. Both Hungary and the UK Histories are full of significant waves of Immigration.”
This is grade-A horse manure (and it doesn’t matter how often it is said): again it is a rationale to explain a fait accompli. And they try it everywhere, even in Finland… ah we’re all immigrants really they say. The UK is a case is in point, three quarters of the indigenous population of Britain’s ancestors were present on those isles 70,000 years ago. Yes that’s right… all four of those zeros, it’s not a typo. The Norman conquest as the Hugenots each consisted roughly of about 10,000.
Consult Prof. Bryan Sykes’ (holder of the Oxford University chair in Human Genetics) 2006 book, the Blood of the Isles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Sykes#Blood_of_the_Isles
Look this is what I’m sick and tired of, people who just regurgitate all the same old platitudes (i.e. “we’re all immigrants really”) without even taking a second to question their preconceptions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Sykes#Blood_of_the_Isles
Moreover, I said – I specifically said, and you know it– that the UK case was different. What happened in the UK was that with the collapse of empire, the citizenship criteria of colonials was left vague. They had de facto rights to settle and a great many did. Please appreciate the perspective.
That was the 1950s, when immigration was perhaps 50,000 a year. But the history of immigration into the UK lasts over 50 years, and with the aging of the baby boomers in the 90s and 00s, immigration has gone up to about 200,000 a year.
The Swedish invitation was precisely because of population shrinkage. You cannot chide me for not recognizing that immigration was caused by different things in different countries: when I specifically acknowledged this was the case; and that it has only later become (primarily because of Schengen) a continent-wide matter. What you fail to recognize, is that the passing of the Lisbon treaty makes future immigration policy solely a continent-wide matter!
“Very primitive demographics, you can’t extrapolate in strict geometric progression. Because the longitudinal evidence suggests the fertility of immigrants assimilates to the societal norms (this is well documented for 3 generation afro-carribean families in the UK).”… “Doesn’t it?”
NOT IN EUROPE IT DOESN’T!!! Why the hell do you think bringing in Australia is relevant here and makes your argument? It makes mine! In Australia there are strong and demanding cultural forces that require and demand assimilation, in Europe our self-deprication (which the Ozzies sure as hell don’t share) and obsession with mulit-culturalism allows for “ethnic colonisation.”
The exact reverse of what the British did in India, if you like. They had no intention of becoming Indians, they intended and lived as Britons in India. This is precisely what happens in places like Clichy-sur-Bois. Algerians live as Algerians, they just happen to be in France. (The crucial difference being that the Indians back then didn’t live in a democracy in which they could have reasonably expected to have been consulted on the matter.)
That is precisely the point, simply put, the Australians and U.S. Americans don’t allow their Muslim communities to separate and segregate because life is impossible for them if they do. There are no housing application forms in Farsi, Pashtun and Arabic and 12 other languages like in Europe: there are no handy UNHCR centres there to provide translators and immigrations lawyers to tell you how to cheat the system into getting residence. You assimilate or you sink: this is precisely what Europe does not do. Jesus! How blind can one person be?
I specifically refuted this, as you damn well know. The Afro-Caribbean example is always brought up by those desperate to draw attention away from the stubborn refusal of European Muslim populations to follow this pattern: generation after generation. Christ! What’s the point? Again if you refuse to actually face the evidence what f*cking point is there? To be blunt, Lord Pearson, of Migration Watch recently made a gaff by blurting out “the Muslims are multiplying 10 times faster than us.”
Consult the work of the sociologist Eric Kaufmann, specifically “Breeding for God” in Prospect in 2006. It’s about Europe – remember? – the continent we’re talking about. Oh, you doubt my statistical integrity of my demographic data do you (and what do you use, why the high-alter of pro-multi-culturalism itself the BBC!!! *calamitous laughter*) and references do you Vándroló? Well whop your cock out big daddy, we’ll soon see whose is the biggest…
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2006/11/breedingforgod/
“Religiosity is the strongest predictor of fertility.” “Yet there is virtually no change at all in the religiosity of Bangladeshi and Pakistani Muslims between the first and second generations. A recent study of Dutch ethnic minorities paints a similar picture of religious retention among Muslim groups.” An Austrian fertility rate of a Catholic woman in 1.32, of a Protestant it is 1.21, and it is 0.86 in the non-religious. Even of a 3rd generation Muslim it is 2.34. You couple this difference with shrinking native populations and… BAM!
I’m sorry to have to patronise you Sophist, I don’t think anyone could actually be legitimately charged with patronising you Vándorló, but really, you don’t have a bloody clue what you’re talking about. Read the evidence, it’s unambiguous. Both of your insistence on arguing dishonestly just makes my point even stronger and you know it.
My guess he knows absolutely nothing about them. Hope you all take him to pieces on this.
If it wasn’t so tragic that’d be funny because when faced with the evidence that’s literally all you are capable of doing “guessing,” and, “hoping.” How pathetic. Hinni a templomba kel faszikám.
Finally,
“Immiration is a fait accompli for which people are scrambling to find a rationale. Agreed, but is the result of poor foresight and mismanagement rather than a Euroconspiracy.”
Why do you feel compelled to use loaded language and dismiss the self-evident reality of a new post-Lisbon Europe as a conspiracy: One can just as easily agree with this sentence and still make my point, by saying, before immigration has been mismanaged,(and instead of “Euroconspiracy” we simply say…) now it will be managed. Q.E.D.
Vége.
Hi bobscountrybunker
You have me rolling around in pure ecstasy on how these clowns are trying to debate with the facts you have provided, their debate in return has no substance just the continuous babble of ignorance. I commend you on the effort you have made researching, thanks heaps, i have copied the facts into my favourites. cheers mate
Any comments on the new ruling that Italy has to remove all the Cross in schools for it might MAKE NON-Christian children uncomfortable?
This is the one eample of Satanic secular EU!
“This is an abhorrent ruling,” said Rocco Buttiglione, a former culture minister who helped write papal encyclicals.
“It must be rejected with firmness. Italy has its culture, its traditions and its history. Those who come among us must understand and accept this culture and this history,” he said.
I do.
(By the way, why post as “Anonymous” on this kind of subject? The Inquisition is over.)
I saw this news item on the BBC. This matter is a bit cut and dried in societies that have long seperated church and state. Italy is not one of those countries, and so this is a touchy issue over there.
When Italy joined the EU, it signed on to certain rules and regulations that don’t evolve out of their own historical experience. Financial transparency and banking regulations are but one example.(It used to be legal for a businesses to keep two sets of books!) Reducing the role of the Roman church in public life and education is another. The church in Italy has taken for granted certain perogatives that just don’t apply in many other parts of Europe. When it came to education, the priesthood assumed veto power and control over publicly funded education. They wanted a say in what was taught and not taught not just in their own religious schools, but in the public ones as well. Traditionally, there has been no strong dividing line in Italy between the church and public life.
This is an old story, not just in Italy, but in many other parts of Europe as well,including Hungary in the past. The marriage of church and state is inimical to freedom, whether it happens in Riyadh of Rome.
Italy can choose, either let the priests have their way in everything, or leave the EU. Let the Italians decide.
Does the Italian population have an opportunity to vote? or is it part of the EU parcel of surprises of men in dark corridors making the decision for the majority , where is the democracy? it’s a scandal in my opinion.
The EU was not content on the Lisbon treaty with the Irish public vote so they had another election this time on their terms, how many elections or bribes would they create before getting the result they wanted? This isn’t a democracy when tail wags the dog.
Kedves Law,
The whole subject of Italy is throwing a monkey wrench into this website, no matter what the subject! They are a people unto themselves!
Italians have a deeply anarchic streak. By nature they don’t like following regulations no matter what. You can’t even get these people to follow the rules as to what side of the road to drive on! Some will stick to the right, others will stick to the left! Drive over there, and you life is real danger!
They are happy fools who don’t get too bent out of shape about the EU or any other govt. Honestly, I can’t see any of them getting upset about the EU to the degree that some do here! When caought breaking the “law”, the Italian thinks that you can either bribe the cop, or the judge, or strings can be pulled.
About the classroom crucifix. One will take it down. Then another will put it back up. Sue in court, and a secular judge will order it down, but then won’t enforce the order. He may be overuled by a religiosly sympathetic judge, who also won’t enforce the order. It’s all a comic charade, and Italians know it all to well.
Things go on over there, folowing a weird “Alice In Wonderland” logic. Mention of Italian affairs is probably not a good thing on politics.hu. Most here, unlike the Italians, seem to take things far too seriously!
About the cross as a religious symbol:
It is forbidden in schools or other public places as a kind of advertising in most civilised countries like in Germany or USA, probably most EU states. I would not want my children to sit under the cross or under a jewish or muslim symbol – a school has to be neutral concerning religion.
You should read the book by Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion…
Bobs.,
“The UK is a case is in point, three quarters of the indigenous population of Britain’s ancestors were present on those isles 70,000 years ago. Yes that’s right… all four of those zeros, it’s not a typo. The Norman conquest as the Hugenots each consisted roughly of about 10,000.”
Not relevant to my argument I don’t believe that genetics or skin colour is a determinant of behaviour. Are you saying that English was spoken in Britain 70,000 years ago? The 10,000 Normans were sufficient to impose French in England for 300 years.
Bobs.,
“The Swedish invitation was precisely because of population shrinkage”
Evidence? (Viking, where are you?)
Bobs.,
“NOT IN EUROPE IT DOESN’T!!! Why the hell do you think bringing in Australia is relevant here and makes your argument”
Your original point was about about Islam
“It is here that Islam becomes an issue. The current propensity (excluding the UK) of Muslim immigration into Europe simply has to do with the fact that these countries border Europe to the South and South-East. BUT, whereas Caribbean 1st generation immigrants have 4-6 children, by the 2nd and 3rd generations their birth rate falls to the 1-2 of the native community.”
So what you are really saying is that Muslims in Europe are not assimilating, whereas they are are assimilating in Australia. There is some evidence that muslim women in France are assimilating: There birth rates in France are significantly lower than in their countries of origin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France#Fertility
Bobs,.
“but really, you don’t have a bloody clue what you’re talking about. Read the evidence, it’s unambiguous. Both of your insistence on arguing dishonestly just makes my point even stronger and you know it.”
I’ve read it Bobs, just a little more critically than you have. If you think statistical evidence is ambiguous, you are being naive. Please don’t call me dishonest, just because I don’t agree with everything you write. I don’t agree with everything Van writes either.
@Wolfi
Establishment influence, no doubt, is using Richard Dawkins and other atheists such as Hitchens, Harris and Pullman, but he need not possess them. He, most probably, simply inspires them to create works that serve to confuse weak souls that have a poor grounding in their faith, and provides justifications for others who want to free themselves from the guilt that may accompany a sin filled life style.
But let there be no doubt about it, influential figures such as Dawkins are, without any doubt, tools by the establishments to separate men from their full potential and become slaves of the system. My opinion on this develish character.
@BobsWhatever: What is this, argumentum verbosium?
Also, the constant reference to the source of
data, statistics and argument rather than its
content is tedious in the extreme. Grow up and
answer to the points raised instead of deciding to
ignore something simply because it’s not on your
approved list of sources.
So far, rather than answering the points raised by
Sophist and in the BBC video you have simply
deferred to your lazy habit of post hoc ergo
propter hoc.
Religion the most important determiner of
fertility and birthrates? Then medicine,
globalisation, urbanisation, access to birth
control and family planning are not as important?
Watch the video:
http://bit.ly/5qvS
@Sophist
@Vándorló
You’re a bunch of berks the pair of you. And while your there, why don’t you tell me that big yellow shiny thing in the sky that’s making everything visible is the moon and not the sun. To think, people who get their references from: videos. Think them superior to actual academic publications. Just read the Kaufmann article (above) in Prospect.
Somalis, Palestinians, Afghans rebuild lives in Hungary.
“Some European Union countries, notably Italy, have recently called for the burden of housing asylum-seekers to be shared. The European Commission has produced plans for a voluntary migrant resettlement programme. In today’s 27-member EU, it could be that other, smaller, less prominent countries like Hungary will increasingly be asked to provide homes for those who have nowhere else to go.”
What children you both are! Could indeed… your ass is being vaselined up and you can’t even see it.
How bitter it is (and how more so it will be) to be proven right. I hope you have self-satisifed Leftist grins on your faces when your country’s heritage and culture ends up demographically down the drain like every other European nation; and then, where will you go?
And anyone who doesn’t want it to happen only has one choice at the elections next year: JOBBIK.
@BobsWhatever: Bobs… you do know that the video is a summary presentation of census data globally. Collated from every country for over the last 100 years or more. Again, you are being confused by the source of the argument and data rather than the content, which in your mind is enough for you to ignore it and fail to answer any questions it raises.
This use of using verbose and irrelevant opinion in the place of actual data and statistical projects (with acknowledgments of their limitations) is also tiresome.
In your last quote you should acknowledge the hedging statement and open admission of conjecture in the sub-clause “…it could be that…”. You do know what ‘could’ means don’t you? You do know that this is a signal of opinion and not fact.
More importantly, I have asked repeatedly whether you know anything about immigration and transit migration in Hungary and Hungary’s role within the EU. You have so far failed to read the sources I pointed you to almost 2 months ago now. I don’t know why you haven’t used these source and insist on using foreign statistics to make projections about Hungary. Why is that BobsTalkingBollocks? Why is that? Isn’t your Hungarian up to it? Still being spoon fed by your masters?
Read Hungarian sources and when I get more time I’m going to take the time to sort the wheat out from the chaff in this words of attrition argument you are trying to use as a smokescreen for your ignorance in place of actual data.
@BobsWhatever: One question Bobs… to see how much you do know. This is to see if you can read plain statistical sources about Hungary:
1. Are there more immigrants now in Hungary that in the 1960s?
That’s it. One question. Best of luck.
n.b. You are in for a hard time if you don’t get to grip with the stats pretty soon.
“In your last quote you should acknowledge the hedging statement and open admission of conjecture in the sub-clause “…it could be that…”
My own comment?
Could indeed…
Why am I not surprised? Even in my comments, let alone in an article which reads…
Somalis,
Palestinians,
Afghans
…rebuild lives in Hungary.
YOU REFUSE TO BELIEVE THE EVIDENCE THAT IS RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOUR OWN EYES. WHAT USE ARE YOU?
@BobsBollocks: Start sucking the stats Bobs… And you do know that Prospect is a simple magazine (of an intellectual nature) and not an academic journal don’t you?
Hi Bobscountrybunker
The hassle with the morons is they won’t accept the facts, only their own version of trash. Miracles are rare, but at least you have exposed who they really are and who they support.
Somalis, Palestinians, Afghans rebuild lives in Hungary.
OMG
As someone who comes from a country with Sharia law, and who has no intention of living permanently in Hungary or anywhere in Europe, I find Bob’s comments reflect his own xenophobic views rather than what is written in the articles he quotes. He has a narrow view of what constitutes multiculturalism, ignoring the fact that globalisation causes as much movement of people as migration. My ability to speak and write in English (& understand the German article he quotes), is as much due to multiculturalism as his BNP tainted definition.
1. The German article Bob refers to makes no mention of Austria’s Muslim population hitting 50% by 2050. It does mention that the job markets are limited even to highly qualified immigrants.
2. The Prospect article makes no mention of Hungary, Palestinians, Somalis or Afghans.
Where does Bob get these numbers and quotations? I’m just curious. Is it the same place as he got the 90% unemployed Roma from?
Curious George
I’m surprised your still alive, you used up all your cat lives
@Law – no, been busy with work, classes, and mid-terms.
Bobs.,
I’m a subscriber to Prospect, I read the Kaufman article when it came oand was interested enough to read the Stark book that Kaufman cited. Specifically because I was curious as to how the situation of Muslims in Europe mirrors that of Christians in Rome.
Kaufman argues from Stark “Christian demography was just as important. Unlike the pagans, Christians cared for their sick during plagues rather than abandoning them, which sharply lowered mortality. In contrast to the “macho” ethos of pagans, Christians emphasised male fidelity and marriage, which attracted a higher percentage of female converts, who in turn raised more Christian children. Moreover, adds Stark, Christians had a higher fertility rate than pagans, yielding even greater demographic advantage.”
(cont.)
Bobs., (cont)
But Kaufman omits the following reasons that Stark also thinks contributed to higher Christian fertility.
1) Female infanticide among pagans.
2) Women had higher status with Christian subcultures – including leadership roles in the church.
3) Christian Women married exogamously and raised their children as Christians.
“The Rise of Christianity”, Stark (1997), HarperOne, pg 128.
So birthrates alone are not sufficient to explain the conversion of Rome to Christianity. Now compare this with the situation of Muslim women in Europe.
Is there a sexual imbalance among indigenous Europeans? No.
Do women have higher status in Islam than in European society? No.
Are Muslim women marrying European men and raising their chilren as Muslims? No
Do Europeans have higher mortality than Muslims? No.
This is not to underestimate the social and political problems that ‘mass immigration’ of Muslims into Europe has caused and will cause, not least people like you prophesying apocolypse. But I concluded Kaufman had misused Stark’s research to support conclusions that Stark did not reach. I also concluded that the batttles for the soul of Europe will be fought in the minds of Muslim women. A battle I saw being fought for the first time at Blackpool Pleasure Beach this summer where I saw young British Muslim girls wearing the Burqua while promenading with their more assimilated friends. It struck me as having more in common with punk than religion.
“We have BOTH kinds of music… Country (Jobbik) AND Western (BNP)” — Blues Brothers
As an American (Hey Tex!) I just want to know two things:
SINCE WHEN has the concept of a “Filibuster” been acceptable in venues such as this? and
WHEN during the day/night does BobsXYZ actually type UP his long uh ‘compositions’ since his lunch hour is so short? He must be up till all hours typing that into Microsoft Word… it must take a whole lunch hour just to copy/paste that stuff IN to his postings, piecemeal.
It’s very hard to absorb an entire manifesto when it hits us in a barrage like that (as opposed to Kruschev ‘original source material’ like Lazlo pasted in which IS valuable/digestible), so BobsXYZ just FYI maybe break your future manifestos down into ‘bite-sized’ chunks and it might be easier for us to debate without feeling like we are being scorched in the face by a blast furnace.
Also, I REALLY would like to hear your response to Vandorlo’s extreeeeemely simple request… But I’m just a bystander enjoying (most of) the exchange here.
Sweden had no global empire and yet it faces an enormous immigrant population that totally dominates (85%+) places like Rinkeby, Bergsjön, Tensta and Malmö.
bobscountrybunker at November 4, 2009 4:34 PM
Rinkeby has 15,051 inhabitants as of December 31, 2007.
89.1% (13,410) have a first- or second-generation immigrant background as of 31/12-2007
-
Bergsjön had 15,416 inhabitants 2008
Swedish & foreign citizens born abroad (8,607) 55.8%
-
Tensta 17 281 inhabitants as of December 21, 2008.
In total are either foreign born, or born in Sweden with 2 foreign born parents: 14,839 (85,9%)
-
Malmö had 286 535 inhabitants 1/1-2009.
29% (83,000) are born outside Sweden, the biggest group are the Danish with 9,000 people.
-
So Bobs BIG statement on “an enormous immigrant population that totally dominates (85%+)” is based on a *total population on 334,283 people*.
The Swedish population was 9,316,256 (As of 31 August 2009)
In any country you can find gettos, even if Malmö is not one of them, but Bob is so stupid he cannot differ Rosengård from Malmö.
1 January 2007, the population of Rosengård was 21,955, of which 60 percent were born outside of Sweden.
-
This type of statistics Bob throws around just shows how dishonest he his.
Just that, no more.
Bob cont:
If we look at the Sweden at a whole, just go to the main wiki page and read:
“the Sweden-Finns are the largest ethnic minority comprising approximately 50,000 along the Swedish-Finnish border, and 450,000 first and second generation immigrated ethnic Finns. Also in the farthest North a small population of Samis live. More than 100,000 Assyrians/Syriacs live in Sweden. There are around 40,000 Roma in Sweden.”
—
So movement between the Nordic countries has always been high.
After WWII, which Swedish industry survived unharmed and suddenly got an European market screaming for building material and construction, the big problem was to get workers to the industries. Therefore an active immigration policy took place where companies went around Europe urging workers to move to Sweden.
This was the main trend to end of the 60s.
After that immigration became more concentrated on receiving refugees, like Chileans after the coup in 1973, basically all Latin America was a dictatorship, so some fled to Sweden.
Also in the middle 70s the Assyrians/Syriacs started to come.
In the 80s it was the Iranians.
In the 90s it was of cause the Bosnians and now it has been the Iraqis.
After -56 it was a not so small number of Hungarians, but according to Bob’s logic we should have thrown them out if they would arrive today.
-
Has this immigration changed Sweden?
Of course!
In many ways to the better, but people like Bob would never like to understand that, so no idea to try either.
Viking,
Hurrah – you’ve finally chipped into this thread!
Bobs. claims “The Swedish invitation [of Iraqi and Bosnian refugees] was precisely because of population shrinkage”.
Is this true, did Sweden see the Iraq and Yugoslav wars as an opportunity to boost its population?
There are none so blind than those who refuse to see.
The case has been made, it’s the truth, and it’s overwhelming. But oh no, as I said right at the start, everthing can be explained away as alarmism or xenophobia. What a surprise.
I look forward to seeing if Hungarians let the likes of you Leftists turn their own country into a multi-cultural shithole like the rest of Europe too.
But please keep talking amongst yourselves, because the people who really matter, are already convinced.
@BobsBackBillowingBollocks? What a coward you are. Rather than answer the considered questions Sophist et al., has put to you, you wheel out a biblical cliché (which one is it Matthew 13:13, Jeremiah 5:21 or Isaiah 6:9-10).
To add to his you might also explain:
1. The difference in birthrates in same religion countries (e.g. Senegal and Turkey or Ireland and Italy)
2. The change is birthrates over time and the factors affecting these (since for you religion is king, though you must have been ‘king joking).
3. Most importantly, *anything* to do with immigration as it relates to Hungary. For example, is Hungary a net transit country for migration (merely a convenient staging post in migrants wishing to enter the EU proper, since learning Hungarian and finding decent opportunities here is fairly limiting) or a stopping place (being a desired destination for migrants)?
4. How you define immigrant as your genetics case depends on evidence showing Brits (both celts and anglos) sharing genes coming from the Iberian peninsula. Doesn’t that mean you are an immigrant, that we have all and are all subject to a history of migration flows even with a degree of homgeneity in populations.
5. You claim not to be racist, yet your arguments are pretty much solely about the genetic (biological) nature of populations. You say nothing of culture. So do you understand and recognise the difference between phenotypical differences and genotypical ones?
6. Where’s the answer to my simple question?
Bobs. claims “The Swedish invitation [of Iraqi and Bosnian refugees] was precisely because of population shrinkage”.
Is this true, did Sweden see the Iraq and Yugoslav wars as an opportunity to boost its population?
Sophist at November 6, 2009 6:32 AM
—
It is definitely the first time I ever heard such a claim. At the time the Bosnians (mainly) came to the Swedish borders, they came in droves. We had some border-checking they came several thousands in a few hours.
This is of course stressed the whole system to its limit and gave way for a lot of anti-immigration opinions.
Many of the Bosnians were families, not young men in good physics to do hard work in the industry.
Also the industry changed, so there was no place for these refugees as work-force. They were refugees, which is the main reason of immigration to Sweden since middle/end of the 1960s.
-
I never heard of any ‘invitation to immigrate due to low population’, *but* in the Swedish debate with Bob’s Swedish friends has the argument been used (as everywhere in Europe proper), ‘we need some one to make the work the official citizens do not do’.
If you want to call that ‘invitation’, well…
-
In reality it was totally different, Sweden tried desperately to stop the wave of immigration and that is the reason why the need of an integrated solution is needed in Europe.
Bob is actually giving the argument for the need of coordination by his Spanish example (of which I do not know if it is really 100% true).
Viking,
“In reality it was totally different, Sweden tried desperately to stop the wave of immigration and that is the reason why the need of an integrated solution is needed in Europe”
I suspected that this actually makes more sense. Not to encourage immigration to tackle the “aging population” problem but to strenghten the Eastern border countries of the EU – they have no interest in doing this themselves as the migrants are heading north west – to keep more migrants out. Also to redistribute refugees into economically less developed parts of the EU to act as a disincentive to potential welfare migrants.
Bobs., do you disagree?
PS If Sweden also has a “jobs Swedes won’t do”. perhaps there is the potential for an employment agency transferring Hungary’s fine cadre of rubbish collectors and street sweepers – they are underappreciated at home.
@Sophist:
The wage discrepancy inside the EU really is a problem. I can give you an example:
I had to talk a young relative of my wife out of taking a “well-paid” but totally uninteresting, unskilled job in the Netherlands, where some friends of his have been working for about a year.
He would have made at least twice the money that he gets now working as a computer specialists installing VOIP-networls and other high level systems…
In the end he realised that the job would bring him money but nothing else, he is still hoping for a career in computers and a better pay sometime, so he can start a family with his girlfriend.
BTW: He has a diploma from the university in Budapest, but nobody gives a shit about that…
So it is not just unskilled workers who want to go wesr or north…
With my previous main Customer, which I stopped working with 2-3 years ago, I knew about 10 Hungarian guys, many with families that moved to Sweden, to get a better paid work at the HQ since 2000.
I think most of them are still there, but when they been there about a year they started to understand that the net was not so big.
OK they could earn 2-5 times more in money, the tax was the same %, so 50% disappeared there.
Then everything is just that 2-5 more expensive, especially food, compared to Hungary. Maybe you get a bit better quality for that though.
The really big cost was of course the flat.
Very few flats are possible to rent, 90% of them in areas Bob normally describe as being the true picture of Sweden. You have to buy your flat, but buying a 3-room flat for 100 MHUF, how many has that when they ‘Go West’?
-
But we should not forget that these differences in wages and costs normally exist in all countries also. The Capital is normally the most expensive place in a Country, just go to Ózd and see how much a beer costs. The other guest can though be of another calibre than what you are used with in VI-district.
The conclusion is that we will never have ‘equality’ between different member states when it comes to these things and why should it be it?
The hot and expansive areas will always reward you with more money, too much work and stress, while in any country-side the situation will be different.
Even with unified fiscal, tax and financial policies it will not be 1
@Viking: You are absolutely correct, but still the discrepancies – inside the EU…
Another example: The farmers in Germany each year need several 1000 helpers to get in their crops, whether its asparagus, cucumbers, cherries, apples, grapes…
No German out-of-work people will do this really hard job, but each year teachers, engineers, nurses from Poland spend their “holidays” working on the German farms “from dusk to dawn”…
I often tell my countrymen: You don’t know, how good you got it, especially in the 21st century…
@Viking, Wolfi – I think there are still some things that Hungarians (or anyone else) can benefit from, by working overseas. While the remuneration may not always work out in their favour, I think when people learn about the work environments & standard of work in other countries, it would give them a whole new appreciation of just how secure their jobs are (for people in developed countries), and how much much/little they need to do to reach the productivity levels of more advanced countries(for developing countries).
In my first job (in Germany) right after school, I was quite surprised to find German workers not to be as hardworking as I imagined, but extremely efficient, and taking pride in the quality of their work output regardless of the level they had. I feel that many countries, including mine, can learn from this, because in these current times, the productivity of the population is a bigger determination of how much the economy will prosper, and just how secure jobs will be.
In the summer I visited several companies in Asia, as well as in Central Europe. I was surprised to find many Korean, Taiwanese, Malaysian & Indian companies were changing their mindset, & revamping their operations(not just downsizing, but reformulating their strategies) as they expected the new global economic environment to be different from the pre-crisis. I sometimes wonder why people don’t pay more attention to what’s happening outside their own sphere especially, with globalisation.
@George: Yes there is nothing better than to spend some time in a foreign country, wheather just travelling, learning the language, studying or working to broaden your horizon…
That was the first thing I would tell my students to try. Sadly when I was young there was almost no chance to study in the USA for example, it was all a question of money…
While working later,I had the chance to travel all around Europe, USA, Africa and ASia too.
You get to meet so many interesting people with different cultures and interests.
Still for people from the former Eastern block with a university degree to work as a common labourer just for the money seems strange and disgraceful…
@Wolfi – I agree that people, especially younger people (who have formed lifelong-formed set ideas) should see how things are in other places, and to view the world as a workplace.
Unfortunately, it is not all that uncommon for university graduates to do manual work (eg Dubai). These sorts of situations can happen when the govt. doesn’t create an environment which allows for suitable economic activity. In the 90′s, I had a gynecologist of 18 years assigned to me as a driver (in Khabarovsk, Russia). He went to work faithfully everyday to the hospital, but after 6 months of not getting paid, he left as he had a family to feed. Where my parents come from, it is not uncommon to find someone with a Masters degree being employed as a bus driver because there are no jobs due to the restrictive investment climate. Many leave to do manual work elsewhere, because it is higher paid, or else get a govt. job. I see the similarities in Hungary, if the business environment changes inline with today’s political rhetoric .
Actually, I feel we are in a phase where higher value jobs can leave a country even if the offices/factories don’t leave. Technology changes & ease of travel allow several graduate level jobs to be managed from elsewhere. The emphasis on creating Lean companies is gradually transcending from the manufacturing sector into many service industries. The way to reduce this is to ensure that the people are productive & competitive, & supported by appropriate govt policies.
Nice to see good old Orban Viktor prioritizing once again. Football hooligans? Lock the bastards up for two years once they have been convicted.
What about the corrupt, fraudulent, hooligans that have all but wrecked the chances of Hungary making a comeback?
Orban is past his sell-by-date. Fidesz need a new leader and, more importantly, some new ideas.