If you want to see how pissed off the Hungarian people are with those in power, who were in power and who claim to represent them in any way, download the survey. It's shocking, even in comparison to recent extremely pessimistic surveys.
http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/267.pdf

@Vandorlo:

yes it is strange how people react: In Hungary as in East Germany a majority of people now believe (or think they believe or...) "life was better in socialist times", while at the sme time they tell you how hard it was to get something, how you could not make any jokes because your neighbour might report on you and so on.

The only difference is that about a quarter of the East Germans elect the "Linke" which is the follow up to the old communist party, while a similar perentage here in Hungary will elect the Nazi Jobbik...

Life is really strange - so many people now take so much for granted...

One of the greatest jokes is, when I declare myself a "liberal" (libertas = freedom) one group says I'm a leftist/communist (USA, Hungary) while the other group call me a reactionary capitalist (Germany)...

@wolfi
This report is nothing but a tool to try a discredit Central Europeans and to promote the ideology that we actually preferred the Soviet and communist regime, what fucking rot! This is a great example of how illusive you pack of neo liberals are, at no time does this stinking report question how the communist informer surveillance was ripe everywhere, from your neighborhood, school class mates, colleague comrades, clergy to your own family members and Hungarians had one of the highest suicide rates in the world.
WHY ARE THESE QUSETUIONS NOT ON THIS REPORT?
About twenty-five percent of the population suffers of anxiety illnesses, and a very large part of it coupled with depression. There is a growing number of mental disorders and the rate of alcoholism and smoking is also alarmingly high, thanks to Capitalisms the other temptation from hell.
The continuation of masked communism of false hopes is reflected in todays lives, which have caused continual problems like life expectancy is now one of the lowest in Europe in Hungary, with the population decreasing by thirty to forty thousand every year, experts say. If this trend continues Hungary's population will fall below ten million by the next century.
Kadar regime stripped the Hungarians by social conditioning. Do you honestly think the people want to return to those days of Totalitarian regime, you’re a disgrace just like vandorloo for pumping this kind of propaganda.
Cont

To go to boot this report also tries to highlight how the young are divided from the old, another ploy to divide the nations. So by presenting a report like this is definitely another attempt by the establishment to produce a SWOT analysis for there next short and long terms plans, to continue the onslaught of divide conquer and rule.

@Law: Surely for Budapest a PEST analysis would be more appropriate? I love the idea of you actually knowing and using SWOT analyses for anything, though.

Ah! The summers were always longer and warmer, the apples and plums always sweeter and the river water was always warmer when we were young. Nostalgia is not what it was!

@ vandorlo and Wolfi

I don't pretend to understand Hungarian politics - I don't. At the rate I am going, it's a very slow process.

However, is it possible that the former Eastern Block countries are so disillusioned because
they thought once they have Democracy, prosperity and happiness will follow?

Hungary is not an Island - so if you look around, all Western nations are having a rough time but they don't blame it on Democracy because they always had it. They blame their own politicians and keep changing parties at each election.

Hungary and East Germany remind me of people who were in jail and thought once they were released, a good life and freedom will follow - The high rate of recidivism is proof that it's tough on the outside. Unless you have something to offer the outside your prospects of doing well are slim to none. What does Hungary have to offer the
world? I thought they just borrowed billions from the EU to survive.

My parents thought "The West" was Utopia and it was for many years following '56 - Not anymore

That's why the JOBBIK agenda is so insane - it wants to isolate Hungary even more. Yeah, that's really going to help. At least people like Law can bail out and return to where he came from. The "true Hungarians" don't have that viable option

@Olga: The depth of feeling and disgust with those in power is perfectly understandable. Today we have the two leading clowns MSZP and Fidesz publicly flaunting media laws and Bajnai keeping stumm, whilst at the same time claiming that he gives a shit about corruption. This is his watch, time to prove it. And the casino deal where the land was estimated to be worth three times more than it actually is worth? He had his hands in that too. Soooo... anti-corruption my arse.

The strength of feeling is a measure of the passion with which Hungarians react to pretty much anything.
Not enough free time to say more now, but yes, it is perfectly understandable - which doesn't make it any less shocking.

1) This is a great example of how illusive you pack of neo liberals are
...
2) Hungarians had one of the highest suicide rates in the world.
...
3) There is a growing number of mental disorders
...
4)the rate of alcoholism and smoking is also alarmingly high, thanks to Capitalisms the other temptation from hell.
Law at November 4, 2009 3:35 PM
--
1) I do not think you will see any one here stating that this is a positive report, which you mean we "neo liberals" (well, when we are not 'jews/communists/zionazis/etc), should think.
It is though very good for Jobbik and its ilk, so do not try to hide that fact.
-
2) Sweden was also in the top suicide league and we had neither the 'jewish-bolschevik' rule or even Soviet-troops. Maybe we killed ourself because of the lack of it?
-
3) True, you are the ultimate proof of mental disorder getting out of hand.
-
4) Ah, Capitalism is to blame for smoking and alcoholism. Then Hungary must have been a Capitalist Paradise when I came down here in 1993. You basically needed to cut your way through the stinking Sophianne-smoke. And that was definitely not a Capitalist-cigarette.
---
You do not think you are overdoing it a bit?
Anything more you want to blame 'Capitalism', like before 1990 the TV was much better?
Oh no, then it was worse, but now it is even 'worser'!
Of course TV was best during the Horthy-reign, then all Hungarians where happy and did not kill themselves. And no one suffered from mental disorder, or smoked or drank too much

I heard the same in Slovenia when I lived there - people always said how much better it was back in the 80s. Everyone had a car, everyone had a washing-machine, the state made sure everyone had a house. Everything was just lovely, if a bit samey.
And yes, in the 1980s at least, in those countries whose version of socialism was pretty mild, life WAS good. The secret police didn't infringe on most people's lives, religion was tolerated, travel to Austria was possible with a bit of form-filling, there was no Coke but hey we had traubiszoda, etc etc.
Democracy & capitalism was only attractive because people watched Dallas and Dynasty and saw the affluence and thought that somehow that awaited them once the iron curtain went down. But of course capitalism, insofar as it works at all, gives only opportunities, not handouts. Some Hungarians/Slovenes/others realized this, found the gaps in the markets (and gaps in the law) and cashed in big time, others sat back and waited for things to get better. They should have been given a view of my "affluent" "Western" city in 1989 and seen how many homeless people were begging on the streets, and how many people were trapped in long-term unemployment. That would have given a fairer impression...

@ Vandorlo, Viking, Wolfi etc

JOBBIK - not worth discussing. Step backwards.

Thus if neither MSZP nor FIDESZ is a viable choice for various reasons, what are the options during the election?

The two Hungarians I know in BP and "consulted" are not bothering to vote - that's not the right attitude. That's how fanatics who are always vocal get ahead.

I am not sure if you even have the right to vote, so if you don't, pretend you could and let me know what the options are if you really cared about your homeland and wanted to make it work according to the philosophies you espouse in your postings.

Short answer would be great.

@Olga: "...the two Hungarians I know in BP and "consulted" are not bothering to vote..." Unfortunately, there are far too many people like that. I had to escort some friends to the polling booth last time to get them to at least choose the best of a bad lot. Apathy is exactly what they want - to keep the people in a perpetual state of 'learned helplessness' lest they rise up and actually get rid of them.
There is no way a sane person would vote for Jobbik. Fidesz is simply a vote for the clown Orbán and MSZP doesn't even have a leader that will there for the election. Couple that with a lack of policies I would not express any opinion about any of them yet. I'm old fashioned, I tend to think that a party without a manifesto is politically unelectable. The other parties are all pretty hopeless right now. SZDSZ are the biggest crooks of them all and have absolutely no morals even if they are not extreme. I would *never* suggest supporting them. MDP, LMP and the KDNP are all tiny and lack coherent policies, despite having areas of strenth (apart from KDNP, who are spineless sycophants to Fidesz).
Also, I would really like a positive reason to vote for someone, rather than the minimax strategy we are typically forced to apply http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimax

Olga,
I can only echo Van in the sense of having a lot of bad choices and at the moment I cannot hear/see anything positive for next elections.
I was rather positive to MDF, probably more because as a small party they can talk a bit more straight (not so many potential voters to offend).
They were also very strong in their opposition to join Fidesz (being eaten up by them as KDNP).
But after this Summer's decision to join ranks with the UK Tories and leave the EPP for the ECR, I am not so sure any more.
-
How it looks at the moment, but that can change, is that you have to chose between Orban and Vona and the question whose influence do you want to lower?
What is the worst scenario - An Orban with 75% majority or a Vona with enough MPs to influence Government politics?
-
The current voting pattern, which started after the General Elections in April 2006 is that the traditional MSZP-voters do not vote and if no one can attract them, then the big question will just be how big question Orban's majority will be.
In that process there will probably just will be 3 Parliamentarian Parties left.
Coherent politics have not so much to do with voters fear for the 'other', the question is how MSZP will succeed scaring their traditional voters to go out and vote.

@ Vandorlo

I think that "minimax" can be interpreted two ways; I would interpret it as "maximizing the minimum gain" in this particular election.

I could afford to vote for a small party I believed in that has no chance to win because FIDESZ is so far ahead.

Luckily, no chance for JOBBIK at the upcoming elections. It's not like you need to rush out and vote FIDESZ for fear of a JOBBIK win.

So what would you do? Stay home like the 2 Hungarians I know ? That would make you apathetic

At least when they count the number of total votes after the election, I would add a number to the people who cared enough to vote.

@Olga: If I were forced to vote today I would very likely vote MDF, but that is with the wide caveat of incomplete information - but not for the lack of searching for it.
I have to say that despite Bajnai's economic lead MSZP have shown themselves to continue to care absolutely nothing for this country. They really are only interested in stalling and lining their own pockets, as SZDSZ always have. The ORTT-radio licenses shows how little respect any of these old timers have for common decency.
There has always been an enormous level of collusion and covering up in the parties (shown by the lack of convictions, despite string evidence in many cases).
There also appears to be very little opportunity for tactical voting either in your positive interpretation or my tendency to consider minmaxing as minimising the maximum loss.
Overall, I'm sick to death of the lot of them. They utterly disgust me as much as they do every normal person here.
I had hoped that Jobbik really would put the shits up the establishment, but they already appear comfortable with their presence - which is not a good sign. And of course, Jobbik have decided to singly focus on issues that are completely irrelevant or counter productive whilst appealing Hungarians' longing for amae (甘え) http://www.kirainet.com/english/amae-%E7%94%98%E3%81%88/

Yisrael Beiteinu Chairman Avigdor Lieberman on Thursday lashed out at Israeli Arab political parties and said he hoped Arab MKs who had contact with Hamas or did not celebrate Independence Day would be executed.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=712521

All of us at the federal prison (good for nothing Jew hater, anti-Semites and Nazis put me there) believe that Avigdor Lieberman would be the best choice for Hungarians to vote for. He is a man we can all support:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman

His family emigrated from Russia to Israel in 1978 and he is already the best authority on who is a Jew and who should be allowed to live in “Greater Israel”. All of us loyal Israel supporters know that “Greater Israel” means all of it. Fuck the Palestinians. We are God’s chosen people and she gave everything to us. God gave us Hungary also and any country we decide to take over. That is all there is to it.

Some people may get the idea that just because we Jews murder the Palestinians by the thousands, steal their land and sell their organs, we do not have the right to call others Jew Haters, anti-Semites and Nazis when it suits us. Screw them; we can do anything we want because we are the victims.

Van.,

thanks for the link: "There is amae everywhere in the world, but it is interesting that in the Japanese language there is a concrete word to describe it" - a thought for the day.

"If I were forced to vote today I would very likely vote MDF"

So it seems we are in a gang, Cináéd was right after all. I would have thought I was pretty safe, going for a party that through the sheer irrelevance of their ideas to the bulk of the electorate ensured their own demise without doing anything particularly bad.

But how does this make you feel about the long term direction of this country?

I feel less threatened -

When you write: - "I had hoped that Jobbik really would put the shits up the establishment, but they already appear comfortable with their presence" - who does 'they' refer to, the establishment or Jobbik?

- but more like a spectator than ever, after 13 years that strikes me as weird.

@ Vandorlo and Viking

(Viking, I didn't see your response before)

Since you mentioned MDF I went to see if Eva Balogh had anything to say about the party - I find her incredibly easy to understand (it was Vandorlo who mentioned her website to me)

This is what she had to say

http://esbalogh.typepad.com/hungarianspectrum/mdf/

Whoever said a little knowledge is dangerous, was wrong in my case . The more I know, the more disgusted I get about Hungary's political scene.

Our politicians are not without faults and are guilty of wasting millions of taxpayers' monies, but compared to what I am reading about their counterparts in Hungary, they don't seem to be in in the same league.

Yet, I would still vote - someone who became a victim for trying to uncover political corruption sounds like someone I could get behind. If not her, I would find SOMEONE I could relate to, rather than sit at home on election day and shake my head in disgust.

IMHO, holding your nose while voting is still better than doing nothing

Isn't MDF a kind of high density particle board?

Olga, I agree with you. Better to at least swing the vote between corrupt parties...this ensures there is at least some sense of insecurity. When the only people who do vote are the ones who have something to gain by getting their cronies into office, a larger absence of general votes increases their value. We actually have compulsory voting here, if you don't vote, you get fined...I know that sounds a bit weird to some, but I think it kind of works.

@ Cinaed;
In my opinion, voting should be made manditory, period. People have died so that we have that ability to vote, what a slap in the face to them if we didn't.

Perfect, everyone who has not voted are to be shot 5 minutes after the closure of the polling station.
That would teach them a lesson.
They would never do that crime again.
It is terrible this liberal 'freedom of choice', actually to be able to chose not to vote, and not just what to chose.

Viking...yes, freedom is everything. Especially the freedom to let one's country go to ruin while one lays on the couch and moans about it. ...oh, and the freedom to be poor...must not forget that.
The 'right' to vote is every bit a responsibility as it is a right. The more people who do not actively get involved in politics are just as guilty of putting corrupt politicians in power as anyone else. So yes. I do think voting should be compulsory.
The argument of voting being a voluntary right is counter-productive because if as a result not enough people vote, sooner or later a government will start thinking 'hmm...they won't even miss it if just get rid of it, come to think of it, let's just get rid of all the opposition parties as well, it will be a worker's paradise'. Freedom and democracy come at a price, and if that price is compulsory voting then I think that is more than reasonable...it's certainly a lot cheaper than paying with your lives or the lives of your children.

Was reading back through this thread at all the posts I missed...maybe it's a bit late for this info, but I thought it was interesting anyway. The last time I checked, Hungary had the second highest suicide rate in the OECD after South Korea...this is actually an improvement, because during the 70s and 80s it had the highest suicide rate of all countries who kept such statistics in the world. Historically, Hungary has had big problems with Depression and suicide going back a long way. Even Durkheim's research shows Hungary had a comparatively high suicide rate in the late 19th century. The problems Hungary has now in terms of suicide and depression go back a lot further than the post-communist era. For sure the current situation is not helping, but I think there is certainly a strong pre-existing condition there. Here's a short blurb about it.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?page_id=05913364-BD89-C5DF-36B477C2C17CD9A1
Yes this was sponsored by a pharmaceutical company, no, I don't think drugs are the only answer, yes, they are part of the answer, yes I think they are over-prescribed in Hungary.

Cineád,

Read your link: " The project focused on one Hungarian region, Kiskunhalas, where the suicide rate was two-thirds higher than that of Hungary as a whole"

This made made wonder if geography is a factor - a flat landscape makes me deppy - so I checked out this:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBF-3VW8HSM-Y&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1086339042&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=db4d5ad49878148d88da471026c8c9af

And what do you know:

East Anglia contains a cluster, although this is mainly in Suffolk, not Norfolk, and is connected to string of high risk areas running as far as Oxfordshire. Overall, these observations illustrate how this distribution is somewhat opposite to that for males 15-24 (Fig. 4);
"there is a readily discernible North-South divide, but,here, it favours the North. In addition to East Anglia and the South East, the entire region South of the infamous boundary between The Wash and the Severn estuary has proportionately more high risk districts than the North."

Needless to say there are no mountains South of the Severn-Wash line. Hungary has a high suicide rate because it is so flat???

The more people who do not actively get involved in politics are just as guilty of putting corrupt politicians in power as anyone else
Cináed at November 10, 2009 10:52 AM
---
No problem agreeing with that.
To not vote it is giving the 'winner of the election' more power, *but* it must be freedom to chose to vote or not. In some countries it is very hard to start a new party and just be able to chose between the 'approved' is not what people fought for.
In Hungary we have the 5% limit to reach the Parliament, if there were no such rule, there would be much more political parties (and maybe some of them would be more like a real party?).
So 'forcing' people to chose between 'approved' parties is maybe not the final solution for Parliamentarian Democracy.
And be nice with Law - what will he vote for next election when he understand there was no difference between Vona and Orban and Morvai and Lendvai?
---
To your 2nd post on over-prescribing drugs in Hungary:
Well, every morning there is the 'Meteorology Doctor' who tells people how they will feel due to it is a hot or cold front, or high air-pressure etc.
Hungary is a wonderful country for professional hypochondriacs. They even tell you what to tell the Doctor that day, in advance.

Viking: I have proposed that each ballot ticket should have a box for "none of the above" (ala Brewster's Millions) I know it sounds silly, but at least then you really would have an official country-wide no-confidence vote. I don't think anyone will ever sway me on the right to choose to vote or not vote. All I think about is what people would do if suddenly someone said, "you are now no longer allowed to vote".
-don't get me started on the character of the Hungarian health system. I'll never shut up.
Sophist...flat country makes people depressed? Hmm...perhaps there is something in that. I remember reading anecdotes of how German soldiers went 'mad' from the overwhelming emptiness and isolation of the Russian steppes...or maybe it was the rain of artillery and the brilliant tactics of 'General Snow'. I'll have to think about that though...maybe flatlands smooth out the wrinkles in the brain. That's my theory.

of course I thought of this AFTER I posted...but when it comes to voting, I think it's a "Use it or lose it" thing.

@Viking
Your continuous flow of written provocation ceases to amaze me, you actually think your stupid sarcasm is entertaining? and you wonder why someone one day wouldn’t drop you like a bag of spuds, you’re an imbecile. Vona Gabor has been travelling the country endlessly campaigning. And him and th Jobbik party are getting my vote.

@olga, vandorlo, viking (and all sane persons here):

We just returne to Germany for a few weeks and I have to catch up on my info source like this forum...

I just asked my wife about the next election and she said she'll vote for fidesz as "the lesser evil", mszp ist just too bankrupt...

If a green party were available strong enough to get into parliament, she might vote for them - or if there were a strong "central" party. Fidesz is too righ for her, but as I wrote, MSZP is a goner, so there just is no alternative...

Anyway since we are over 60 and only spend part of our time in Hungary, we are not really concerned, but for the younger people, I don't know...

When we're back in Hungary for Christmas (not that we are christians, but it is a family holiday for us) I'll ask her son and his girlfriend, what they think about the forthcoming elections.

Any way my thesis is: A country moves on by the actions of its people, most of them are usually hard working for their own future, the politicians should do as little as possible to "let the system run its course"...

Vona Gabor has been travelling the country endlessly campaigning. And him and th Jobbik party are getting my vote - You of course mean 'proverbial vote' as you are not Hungarian and cant even vote in this country. Truly stunning

Viking: I have proposed that each ballot ticket should have a box for "none of the above" (ala Brewster's Millions)
Cináed at November 10, 2009 2:27 PM
---
Actually thinking about it, in Sweden in the late 70s there was a movement that tried to get people to get voting 'blank'.
You have blank votes in Sweden, originally thought if it was not enough of the pre-printed one could use them, or to vote for something that was not on the pre-printed (hard rules applied to be deemed valid though).
By voting 'blank' the idea was to show that the big (= Parliamentarian) parties were just a joke and that a big number of voters rejected them.
It was basically the Maoists and some other small 'left wing' organisations that pushed that line.
They were anyway too small to get any State Support.
In the end I do not think you could see any difference in the statistics.
It defies logic though to have a big movement organising people not to vote and then not use that power to push an agenda and in the end you have another party.

@C'est moi: You should follow Vona Gábor's twitter feed to get a real fell for how insane he and his party is: http://twitter.com/vonagaborjobbik
A few hours ago he was bragging that "I'm having an arrow cross engraved on the back of my iPhone - to the exact same size as the one that's on my shoulder" ("most gravíroztattam rá egy nyilaskeresztet az iPhone-om hátlapjára - pont akkora lett, mint a jobb vállamon lévő...")
On Saturday he was yelling "Look at me I'm an eagle amongst twittering birds"... And there's plenty more where that came from.
Question: Isn't an iPhone just the kind of symbol of the decadent consumerist West that he should be shunning?

The USSR and communism were bankrupt. The children/orphans i.e. eastern bloc countries were dumped and left to look after themselves - borrowing money from the West with little intention, or the ability, to pay it back
Hungary is one of the orphans that continually stabs itself in the back or, shoots itself in the foot! (Mixed metaphors but what the hell!)
The system/s need to change in Magyarorszag beginning with a well-thought-out reform package
that sees an end to corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy - a legacy of the former regime.
A new constitution/alkotmány? Orban Viktor thinks so?
"A constitution is a set of rules for government—often codified as a written document—that establishes principles of an autonomous political entity. In the case of countries, this term refers specifically to a national constitution defining the fundamental political principles, and establishing the structure, procedures, powers and duties, of a government."