Stop lying Erik. You know we're as energy rich as Kuwait: Makó Trough, Hajdúság's natural gas, Mecsek uranium, Zala crude, etc. "Hungary doesn't produce much gas or oil of its own," because ExxonMobil et al. own it and block its exploitation for the same reason Iraq's oil had been embargoed for over 10 years. Whoreland has to control everyone's energy supplies so Whoreland can do whatever it likes such as pillage and mass murder the latter being a final solution to the overpopulation issue as well… Talk about killing two birds with one stone, eh?

It's true. We do have a lot of natural gas reserves, in fact one of the biggest known deposits in Europe.

What we are very very short on is leadership. There is no excuse for Hungary not getting wealthy off of these reserves. There are also other ideas as well, such as geothermal and hydro. The Danube has a very fast current, and that can be more fully exploited for power generation.

For centuries, our peasants have raised the "kender"(hemp) weed for rope, paper and fabric. It's seeds contain a flammable oil, which the old peasantry squeezed for lamp oil. That oil can also drive a vehicle; it's been dome. The plant grows very quickly and is a renewable "green" resource. We would be able to fuel most of the vehicles in Hungary this way.

Lot of good ideas; no leaders.

Hi Farkas Laszlo

These suggestions are great I agree, however have you seen what happens to leaders that want to implement alternative energy and use there own natural recourses? They get crucified in the Media and International Scene.
As Pávaszem mentioned we have to highlight how the Multi Nationals halt any country from becoming independent by becoming self seficient, and highlight how the corrupt tactics of he Capitalistic world really operates!
One moment you are going all out for Capitalist agenda next you are saying go local, I would like to stress there has come a point in our history where we have a choose to either serve the Mammon or fight for the expose the truth to who is controlling our destiny, or choose the later.
IMF and Multi companies dictate our future and this is where we have to change the rules.

Soylent Green

Hi Law,

The leadership issue sucks doesn't it? Don't you wish sometimes that we could be "beamed out" like on Star Trek? (Or at least have our leaders undergo that process!)

About multinationals. I believe in Hungarians creating and owning multi-nationals! That would give us wealth, which would also give us power over our lives and our poblems!

I don't believe in foreign multi-nationals corrupting our leaders and capping off a valuable resource like natural gas, just because it suits their profit picture. I don't believe something as valuable as our natural gas reserves should be controlled by foreign multinationals. This is a problem that Middle Eastern states faced for decades. They had the oil, but they allowed foreign interests to control production. Different oil producing countries dealt with this issue in different ways, but the overall trend has been towards more local say so. Maybe we should be consulting more with other OPEC nations about their historical experience.

Global capital and international business is a sword. Either you wield it, or someone uses it against you! It's the way of the world. I ended my posts about global business recently with the expression "Talpra Magyar!", and not "Talpra Exxon!"

I hope this helps my friend, and helps you understand where my sympathies lie. Foreign multi-nationals need to understand that we are not pushovers, and that we too can play their game.

What happened to this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_power
I thought the whole reason why Hungary had so many thermal baths was that the earth's crust was remarkable thin in our neighbourhood.
When fossil fuels run out energy production costs will spike massively because of the necessity to switch to nuclear power whose construction and disposal is enormously costly.
Surely Geothermal would then become cost-effective? And yet I have heard nothing about it in Hungary.
In Iceland I believe it produces 25% of electricity and 80% of heating.

Oh of course, how stupid of me, it was corrupted out of business.
"According to the regulations then they will have to pay drastically increasing taxes and charges."
Integrated Feasibility Study on Geothermal Utilisation in Hungary
http://www.geothermalpower.net/results/Integrated%20Feasibility%20Study.pdf
I should have guessed...

That was a good catch Bob!

We do indeed have many near surface hot spots in Hungary! The baths at Balaton and Budapest are a good reminder. We lack a political class as well as a private sector that could turn this into energy.

We need to discuss these thing openly, as it raises awareness. Those thermal vents will continue. The cluelessness among us, I predict will not!

@Farkas László
The potential as I see it would be huge, and we are insane not to be taking advantage of it. From anything lightblue or white it seems. Most of the country in fact. It may not be sufficient for energy generation but it would be enough to almost heat and give hot water to the whole nation.
http://www.geothermalpower.net/Temp1000.jpg


That's where the corruption problem comes in: because it would need massive investment. And these are exactly those projects where people in the Önkormányzatok lick their lips and put a call through to their people at Credit Suisse.
In fact from what I read it would be even easier than we think, because you install these things in the pre-existing boreholes you have already made for the oil and use them for geothermal once you've taken the oil out. Amazing.

Instead of exploiting its potential in whatever
area, more often than not, Hungary and its people get exploited. A corrupt minority benefit and seem always to get away with it. Farkas László has addressed this point on many occasions - intelligently, and articulately, I might add.
Trouble is, if Viktor Orban is the man on whom Hungary depends to change things - Oh dear...??

All these suggestions would maybe work in a Command Economy, but there is a reason why all this gas and oil and hot water under us (and in many places in the world) is not used.
That reason is the scale of the investment needed to use it, including the distribution network.
-
Hot water: Very good in the cold period on short distance, but hard to transport. Iceland as an example is not comparable, it is a small country and they hardly need to drill, it comes up by itself. *And* when 1 kg onion cost as much as expensive cognac to transport to Iceland, what would oil and gas cost?
-
Oil and gas: If it was cheaper to take it up in Hungary, than to buy foreign, it would have been a reality already.
We would then have had the hard discussion about environmental disasters in the areas around the drill-holes.
But what the heck, Hungary is a big country with not so many people, so very few would notice it?
Oil and gas is also not the green future and we should not be more dependent on it.
-
Renewable energy?
Well I put 60 sqm solar water panels on my roof, 2.500 l buffer, water-jacked fireplace, isolated the house, in total 15 MHUF or so.
When will I get it back?
I have gone from 10.000 cubic-meter gas per year down to 2-3.000. 100 HUF/m3 = 700 000 HUF/year = ca 20 years. I hardly think my equipment will hold 20 years so I am losing.
I did it because I like the idea, not for profit, but Eric is right => let the gas cost 500 HUF/m3 so there is incentive to change.

Hi Viking,

My own idea about geothermal involves a water circulation system, between cooler parts of a tube or loop vs, the warmer parts. The convection current then drives a generator. When the "hot spots" are so near the surface as they are in a few places is Hungary, then you can save the high cost of drilling deep into the earth to do this.

Of course any alternative costs money and investment capital, and where you have a political environment and private sector that lives in the moment and thinks not of tomorrow, then these alternatives don't get properly developed. Interestingly enough, none of the billions lent to us by the EU seem to have been earmarked for such a purpose to my knowledge. The degree to which you have "greened" you house sounds impressive. There is always a period of recoupment of investment.

It is a good point to wonder whether our existing known natural gas reserves are commercially developable. I don't know what the situation is on that, as we have to take the word of the multi-nationals about it. As you must well know by now, there is a lot of skepticism around here regarding the multis. I don't know what if any independent surveys and assessments have been commissioned. This would be a damn good thing to ask our politicians an parties about. The potential stakes are too big to make light of the matter.

Given the earlier nationalist protection around MOL, one has to ask why MOL was never used to try to exploit theses resources?
-
I think there are 2 main answers to that:
1) The prohibiting costs.
It was cheaper to buy Russian gas and subsidize it, than drill our own.
Now when Jobbik's friend Put in taken over MOL, then that is no longer an option, more than the gas will flow in the other direction.
-
2) The environmental factor.
This goes much also for all of these different energy production:
- mining for uranium and coal,
- pumping up oil and gas,
- turning big parts of Hungary from growing food-crops to energy-type of crops will change the landscape and the 'way people have lived for centuries'.
A highly controversial issue.
- Even there is resistance against wind-power.
Who wants a propeller near them?
They are put in the countryside where the distribution network need to be rebuilt on a large scale to support thousand of wind-generators when the wind is blowing real hard. Go to Germany, who has one of the bigger wind parks in Europe, the distribution network cannot handle the the increased production when the wind is blowing hard and stops receiving wind-energy.
----
I have always promoted that Hungary should take the lead in Europe and invest in research on alternative energy and organise the cooperation between Universities and start-up companies in this field.
Hungary has a long way to go, but it must be on the renewable path. This is not only an Hungarian issue

My own idea about geothermal involves a water circulation system, between cooler parts of a tube or loop vs, the warmer parts. The convection current then drives a generator
Farkas László at November 20, 2009 5:33 AM
---
The problem is the COP and how big generators it could turn.
Energy is not created, just changes form and in every change, some is lost.
I still think hot water is best used for heating, the efficiency has not been enough so far to get out so much more from it.But can be a local thing.
Together with additional sun-energy it could be a factor in an cooling-process, then myself I am thinking of building a cooling system for the hot summers, by using an easy "sun to ice"-machine developed for the 3rd world.
The ice would be use to cool down glycol which is then cooling water being pumped up by solar-driven pumps and circulated in the house.
The glycol would be pre-heated by my normal solar-water system to keep it at 80-90 degrees, but it needs a bit more to start to drive the process of creating ice.
-
As usual the distribution-system is the killer:
I just need to rebuild the whole house supporting heating/cooling of the floors, walls and ceiling (where appropriate).
I will never get back the money on this one, but I have fun in the mean-time. I have 3-5 years left on that project. At the moment we have torn out 60% of the house to put in distribution in the floor/wall/ceiling in that part of the house.
My family loves to use only 30% of the total house

There is a corrupt government in power in Hungary using the courts illegally, or have you overlooked this Viking? Again you are ignorant to how the courts are corrupted in Hungary and EU full of criminal Neo Liberal Judges, but not long and we will remove this element and place them behind bars.
Stop you antics of lies Viking assuming that we Hungarians are not aware of the corruption in our court system.

I did a little reading up on geothermal energy. Apparently there are different approaches, one involving using hot water from the earth as a radiator, the other using electric generators. Electric generators can be driven when you exploit a temperature difference in a water loop beween ground and air. A more potent approach, and which costs more, is to drill sufficiently deep (about a 100M or more), where you get more temperature difference, thus more water circulation and hence more lectric generation capacity.

I also read that having hot spots close to the surface, like we do in Hungary in a few places, is indeed helpful. Other countries that have such features are using them for geo-t power generation.

Given the cost of implementation and time needed to recoup the installation investment, we have to think of a leveraged approach. It wouldn't be practical for the time being, to talk about private homes having their own installation. What I think would make sense is for our electric power utility companies to adapt this technology for central power generation. From utilities, we could then talk about other deep pocket entities, like factories, hospitals, govt and military.

It would also do for us to start to get the expertise through practice., so that we could apply the geothermal option more efficiently in the future. We can also learn from the experiences of other countries, as this is hardly an unproven idea. I'm encouraged to hear that a country like Brazil, long associated with weak inefficient and corrupt govt, has manged over the years to achieve a high level of energy independence.

I notice the subject of corruption does come up on this thread, as it well should. Significant sums would have to be invested. To this day, I'm not at all sure how much if any of the 60 billion Euros lent to us a while back by the EU was earmarked for energy investment. I almost don't want to know the answer.

Unfortunately, it seems only foreign companies have any real money to invest, and they have other projects and priorities than to enable energy independence for Hungary. For the time being, we are stuck with weak and disorganised public and private sector.

Sorry for a typo above, I meant drilling down to a 1000M, not 100M as reported. Thousand plus meter deep drilling is not cheap, but doable for deep pocket corporate and govt entities. You would be looking at maybe 7 years to recoup the cost in some cases.

Article on geothermal energy in Hungary:

http://waterfire.fas.is/GeothermalEnergy/Geothermal_Energy_in_Hungary.php

There is a corrupt government in power in Hungary using the courts illegally
...
the courts are corrupted in Hungary and EU full of criminal Neo Liberal Judges, but not long and we will remove this element and place them behind bars.
Law at November 20, 2009 10:39 AM
---
Would not removing all these 'criminal Neo Liberal Judges' create a general deficit of Judges in the EU?
But maybe knowledge of the Law is not a requirement in Jobbik-Land? Enough to ask Law...

For those leaning towards the conspiracy-thing there are some facts:
In 1960, Pacific Gas and Electric began operation of the first successful geothermal electric power plant in the United States at The Geysers in California.
The original turbine lasted for more than 30 years and produced 11 MW net power.
-
The binary cycle power plant was first demonstrated in 1967 in Russia and later introduced to the USA in 1981.
This technology allows the generation of electricity from much lower temperature resources than was previously viable.
In 2006, a binary cycle plant in Chena Hot Springs, Alaska, came on-line, producing electricity from a record low fluid temperature of 57°C.
---
So it is possible, but it is expensive and has its own risks with triggering local earthquakes.
Still cheaper to import Russian gas.
And that is the *real* problem.
We give too much power to Put in, instead of creating an alternative to the Russian gas.
The gas is the back-door Russia will come back in Europe, but this time dominating not only the eastern part.
Geo-thermal for heating (which is much easier and cheaper than for electricity), together with subsidizing renovation of District Heating (see Sweden as example) and liberalising laws and regulations on buy-back electricity schemes for small electrical plants (wind-power etc), not starting at 100 KW as today.
But we still have all the gasoline being used by the transport-industry. We will not run cars on Hungarian water, hot or not, yet.

Hello to my readers and to our community!

The subject of this thread has haunted me for about a week or so. The possibility that we are sitting on top of a huge gas field, one of the largest in Europe, has caused me to do some research.

There is too much at stake to take the matter lightly. The impact this could have on the course of the nation's future and it's economy is almost incalculable. How much benefit we derive from it will be a real test of our smarts.

Some nations have handled this sort of thing better than others. In the Netherlands, gas deposits have helped fuel a powerful econmomy; in countries like Nigeria, the windfalls just wound up in Swiss banks, with society having little or nothing to show for it all.

I sincerely hope that some of the information I present here can and will make a difference. Looking it up and researching it has been very educational for me, as I hope it will be for my readers.

Hungary has substantial deposits of what are called “unconventional gas” in the “Mako Trough”, in the southeastern part of the country. That is an industry term for gas that is hard and expensive to get at. Here is one definition of it from:

http://www.naturalgas.org/overview/unconvent_ng_resource.asp

“So what exactly is unconventional gas? A precise answer to that question is hard to find. What was unconventional yesterday, may through some technological advance, or ingenious new process, become conventional tomorrow. In the broadest sense, unconventional natural gas is gas that is more difficult, and less economically sound, to extract, usually because the technology to reach it has not been developed fully, or is too expensive.”

“Therefore, what is really considered unconventional natural gas changes over time, and from deposit to deposit. The economics of extraction play a role in determining whether or not a particular deposit may be unconventional, or simply to costly to extract.”

Hungary’s Mako Trough appears to consist of two kinds of “unconventional gas”; “tight gas” and “shale gas”. Defined as:

“[Tight gas} is gas that is stuck in a very tight formation underground, trapped in unusually impermeable, hard rock, or in a sandstone or limestone formation that is unusually impermeable and non-porous (tight sand).”

“Natural gas can also exist in shale deposits… Shale is a very fine-grained sedimentary rock, which is easily breakable into thin, parallel layers… These shales can contain natural gas, usually when two thick, black shale deposits 'sandwich' a thinner area of shale. Because of some of the properties of these shales, the extraction of natural gas from shale formations is more difficult (and thus expensive!) than extraction of conventional natural gas.”

In order to get to the Mako gas, they are looking at drill depths of 6,000 meters, not exactly a shallow hole.

From an energy report from moldova.org, dated May 13, 2008, at:

http://politicom.moldova.org/news/analisys-unconventional-gas-extraction-in-hungary-118681-eng.html

“Hungary’s MOL oil and gas company has entered into a partnership with ExxonMobil of the United States and Falcon Oil & Gas of British Columbia, Canada, to develop the gas deposits in Hungary’s Mako Trough”

“The Mako Trough holds an estimated 1.2 trillion cubic meters of gas, including 340 billion cubic meters susceptible to commercial development.”

“Drilling is scheduled to start before the end of 2008, with exploration wells eventually reaching a depth of 6,000 meters. Commercial production is anticipated to begin in 2011, with a potential to reach 10 billion cubic meters annually by 2012 and thereafter.”

“MOL and ExxonMobil each hold 40.4 percent of the acreage in the Mako contract area, with Falcon holding the remainder of 19.2 percent. The total investment is estimated at up to $24 billion for the project’s lifetime of up to 30 years. Within the overall project, ExxonMobil signed separate parallel agreements last month with MOL and with Falcon for joint exploration and development of particular portions of the project area. ExxonMobil shares those acreage portions half and half with MOL and 67 percent to 33 percent with Falcon.”

“The Mako deposits contain “tight gas,” which is one of several forms of “unconventional gas.” While technically complex, the extraction of unconventional gas is rapidly becoming attractive commercially due to rapidly rising prices for the product and uncertain access in the main producing countries beyond Europe and North America. Within these two continents, unconventional gas is now recognized as the main basis for potential growth in extraction.”

Based upon the information given, it appears that Hungarians have a potential 30 year long energy windfall coming their way, starting with 2012 and beyond, once commercial production begins. Ten billion cubic meters a year, divided into 340 billion cbm estimated to be commercially extractable, gives us a generation long window of opportunity.

For starters, that means the nation can start to sell and export something of considerable value, while avoiding having to buy so much energy from abroad.

This raises economic and political questions of the utmost importance:

1)What will be the effect on the nation’s GDP over 30 years?

2)How will this windfall be taxed?

3)How will that tax money be spent?

4)What kind of tax policy and incentives are appropriate in this case?

5)How can public and govt policy affect research and development, plant construction and further exploration?

6)What kind of “trickle down” effect or economic multiplier ripples be expected?

7)How will the private sector spend the proceeds?

8)What impact will this have on the job and real estate market, especially in S.E Hungary?

9)How can these gas revenues be employed to improve our infrastructure, education and other economic capacity?

Last but not least,

10)How can we profit from this as individuals?

Question 10, about what we can do to profit ourselves, is a tantalizing issue.

Given that both MOL and ExxonMobil are privately owned and publicly traded firms, I can’t help but think that share ownership over the long term is the way to personally profit from such a project.

Hungarians who have some investment capital, and who want to think for the long term, should seriously consider this. Hungarians owning a share of ExxonMobil would enable some “profit repatriation” over the life of the project, through potential capital gains, stock splits and dividends. They make money off of us, we in turn pick their pockets, so to speak. Better than nothing. Better than doing nothing too.

About MOL(MOL Magyar Olaj- és Gázipari Nyrt.):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOL_(company)

MOL ranks 449th on the Fortune Global 500 list. (That may not sound like a high ranking, but when you consider that the list is global, and when you take into account that most of the companies in that class are well established and headquartered in nations that have had a longer market experience than post communist Hungary, that is actually phenomenal)

Company capitalisation stands at about a respectable $15 billion US.

MOL is involved with exploration, refining and sale of gasoline, oil and natural gas. It’s activites are global, it is active in a great many countries, as either partner or majority shareholder. Recently MOL has been involved in discovery and development of gas reserves in Pakistan. Other nations where they have been large stakeholders are Croatia, Slovakia, Austria, Bosnia, Romania, Cameroon, Oman, Kazakhstan, Pakistan, India, Russia and Iraq.

MOL Ownership structure:
http://www.mol.hu/en/about_mol/investor_relations/shareholder_info/ownership_structure/

A check of the pie chart shows that domestic Hungarian investors are 7.1%, foreign investors are 25.8%. The remainder is split between banks, Hungarian govt and other energy companies.

I would very much like to see the pie slice showing Hungarian investors increase. All it would take is more of us buying shares.

Stock performance of MOL:

http://www.mol.hu/en/about_mol/investor_relations/shareholder_info/share_price_data/

MOL stock is heavily affected by global market prices of oil and gas, as would be expected. For years, the company stock traded between about 4,000 HUF to about 7000HUF per share. With the surge in the world market price of oil, the stock went to 30,000 HUF in 2007, then dived to about 8,000 in 2008 and early 2009. It has since doubled this year, trading around 16,000 HUF.

No doubt these are volatile swings. I believe the real purpose to owning such stock is to share in the growth and development of Hungary’s energy resources.

MOL Dividend information:

MOL appears to pay dividends on an annual basis, usually in a summer month around June or July.

http://www.mol.hu/en/about_mol/investor_relations/shareholder_info/dividend/

Per share dividends from MOL increased dramatically over time: In 1995 they were a paltry 9 Ft. per share. Come 2005, they jumped to a degree that took one’s breath away:

2003—- 58 Ft per share
2004---167 Ft
2005---321 Ft
2006---508 Ft
2007---883 Ft (About $5 US, or 3.3 Euros)

That would mean about $5000 US on a 1000 shares, or about 883,000 HUF. Dividend proceeds can be spent, or reinvested in buying still more shares. It is better to do the latter if you don’t need the cash for something else and if you believe enough in the operation to go on buying more shares. The corporate articles of MOL require that a shareholder register with them as a shareholder in order to qualify for dividends; just buying the stock may not be enough.

The reason for this is given by MOL as:

“Following the implementation of EU conform gas business regulation, completion of large investments of MOL Group and improvement in industry environment, MOL significantly increased dividend level paid after the 2005-2006 business years.”

In other words, they increased payout in compliance with EU requirements.

I would suspect that the first people to get transparency, accountability and financial return in Hungary are not the ordinary people, but the rich, powerful and well connected. It has always been so I believe, since the beginning of time. Multi-nationals like Exxon come into Hungary with a whole different set of expectations than the average Hungarian. They want their Hungarian partners to prove everything to their satisfaction, or they take their billions and just go somewhere else.

I can be as cynical as the next guy, and I suspect that without participation from a big foreign firm and EU regulation, MOL might still be paying 9Ft dividends, with the top people just pocketing off of “cooked books”, and saying the hell with dividends. That may be good for the top crooks, but it does nothing for the investor. By being an investor in a more regulated environment, you are sharing (proportionately of course) with the other well established interests who have a stake in MOL performance. What I would not ever want to see is MOL and Hungarian energy going the way of what you see in Nigeria: lots of resource, no regulation and politicians and crooks pocketing the proceeds illegally.

About owning Exxon Mobil stock:

Dividend is around $1.78 per annum (MOL is far better!) Dividends paid quarterly, averaging between .27 to .42 cents per share.

Price per share, around $76 US

For those who may have some questions about some aspects of share investing, I have prepared the following Q & A:

Q: What if I don’t have a lot of money to invest?

A: You can pool with others. Form what is known as an “investment club”. Family members, friends, co-workers, schoolmates, church members etc. You get 20 or 30 people together, and things can start to happen! Draw up an agreement that covers things like how investment decisions are to be made, how to apportion capital gains and dividends, stop loss order placement, make rules about withdrawal, the paying of capital gains taxes etc.

Google this subject, and you will find a lot of information out there. This idea is old as the hills. For decades, the media would tell stories of a sewing circle of old women in rocking chairs who did this, and often outperformed the stock market experts.

Q: What about risk to my capital?

A: Diversify. Don’t put all your money in one firm. You can have a portfolio of different stocks, or invest in a mutual fund. Some mutual funds address a certain industry like energy.

Losses can also be limited with stop loss orders. They are not foolproof, as your sale price may be exceeded under some conditions, but they can help contain risk.

Also there is a difference between playing for short term gains, which is really speculation, vs. for the long term, which is investing. For a company like MOL or Exxon, I would be looking at 5-20 year time frames.

One of the advantages of holding for the long term are stock splits. In other words, your 100 shares can become 200 or 300 for example. Share value can also increase when the board of directors decides to reduce the number of outstanding shares, as MOL has decided to do in 2007.

Q: Should I trade stock derivatives, like options and futures?

A: These kinds of instruments give tremendous leverage; often you are talking about putting up only 1-3% of the contract value. That gives you an awful lot of bang for your money if you are right. You must however be right not just about market direction, but time frame as well. These kinds of contracts expire within a few months. Stock on the other hand represents ownership, which can last a whole lot longer. You can leave stock to your kids and grandkids in a will; you can’t do that with expiring contracts.

Some options like “puts”, which increase in value when the market goes down, can be useful to cover losses on common stock in the event of a market downturn. Stock option contracts are typically for 100 shares. For those that own 100 or more shares, they can serve as insurance. Puts cost money, and may expire worthless, and have to be renewed for continuing coverage. Like any insurance, it costs money.

I generally don’t recommend options and futures for novices. If you are curious about them, read a lot, take some classes and finally “paper trade” them before doing the real thing. You can get killed playing around with these things.

Q: Is it better to go with a mutual fund?

A: It can be. If spreading your risk is important, then a mutual fund allows for that. It pools from a lot of people, and then invests in a broad range of stocks. Your gain is “pro-rata”, or proportional to your investment.

If you are in a position to buy a lot of stock shares, say several hundred or over a thousand, you stand to gain voting rights, stock splits and dividends. By being in a mutual fund, you lose out on some of these direct benefits., (As they are diffused through the membership) Greater potential risk, greater potential reward.

When shopping for a mutual fund, I would ask for a prospectus, and review past performance. Funds that just started a few months ago, have no performance history for you to go by. When reviewing past fund performance, look not just at their best months, but their worst ones as well. Losses are called “drawdown”. Make sure that past bad months are acceptable risk to you and your money.

Finally, look at the monthly maintenance fees and conditions for selling and withdrawal. Also make sure the minimum investment requirement is something that you can afford. These vary quite a bit from fund to fund. Buyer beware.

Q: Should I buy on margin?

A: This is potentially risky business, especially for a novice. Margin means not paying the whole amount of the stock, and borrowing from the brokerage firm to pay for the rest. That’s a fine way to get a return on your investment, provided the market is going your way. If it does not, you incur the infamous “margin call”. That means having to put up more funds immediately, or the brokerage house sells your shares to protect themselves, whether you like it or not.

A long time ago, brokerage houses extended margin to just about anybody that walked in the door. Not any more! Today they take a good look at the credit profile of anybody wanting to do this. You will have to prove to them that you have sufficient cash on hand or liquid securities to cover what you are trying to do. Even that may not be enough with some firms. You might have to prove a high income as well as cash on hand.

@FL:

Thanks a lot for that info on MOL and the Mako gas reserves!

This really might be a chance for the next generation in Hungary to become (a bit more )independent - energy wise.

@Bobscountrybunker: "What happened to this?" Good call! Hungary is not just natural gas rich, we're energy rich, period. Including BTW nuclear power. Paks, fueled by Mecsek uranium, currently provides 40% of our electricity. Wind power's very feasible in Hungary as well: 'Az MVM megvásárolta a sopronkövesd-nagylózsi szélerőműparkot, ezzel a magyarországi szélerőműkapacitás közel ötödét tartja a kezében… http://➡.ws/磒 ' Solar energy is also feasible. "Oh of course, how stupid of me, it was corrupted out of business..." It's more than corruption. It's organized crime (what else is new?) 'Az egydolláros cég | A magyar gázpiac 20 százalékát a liberalizációt követően néhány év alatt megszerző Emfesz Ukrajnából kapott a piacon elérhető árunál olcsóbb gázt egészen áprilisig. A csapok elzárását követően a céget vezérigazgatója egyetlen dollárért adta el az állítása szerint a gázellátást biztosítani képes, ám Magyarországon azóta is ismeretlen hátterű, Svájcban bejegyzett cégnek. A tranzakció miatt rendőrségi nyomozás indult, melyben Góczi István vezérigazgatót november elején már gyanúsítottként vették őrizetbe [ http://➡.ws/摾 ]

@Bobscountrybunker, continued: Az Emfesz sztroriról részletesen ld. Gázháborúk Magyarországon [ http://➡.ws/⦉쵏 ] illetve Honi Gázháborúk II [ http://bit.ly/2HdSM0 ]. cimű cikkeinket.

@Bobscountrybunker, more: http://bit.ly/7JkJR7 We don't even buy Russian gas from Russia, we buy it from France... How do you explain that?
@Laci: Nice footwork and I couldn't agree more with "There is too much at stake to take the matter lightly. The impact this could have on the course of the nation's future and it's economy is almost incalculable…" However buying ExxonMobil stock is not the answer… Have you read http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine ?

@Laci, continued: Have you heard of ENRON http://bit.ly/veSmY (for Christ's sake)? Let the MFs bring 'democracy and freedom' somewhere else. We need to partner up with China and Iran, make like Venezuela and F the Anglos and the horses they rode in on. The death penalty for corruption will take care of their compradors like Bajnai, Szekeres et al... See? It's simple. :)
@Sandor: "Trouble is, if Viktor Orban is the man on whom Hungary depends to change things - Oh dear...??" Don't worry, once you screw the pooch you don't get a second chance in his business. He won't get the vote fraud, he won't get the media whores and he won't get the job IMHO

Dear Pávaszem,

I am most definitely investing in MOL personally! If it ends up going lower, I will just buy more. MOL sounds like a powerful multinational. Go to their website at www.mol.hu (In both english and Hungarian). They are very busy going all over the owrld, looking for opportunity wherever they could find it.

I do not feel the need to invest in Exxon personally, not when I have a very fine Hungarian firm to invest in, that is in the same business! Especially when that Hungarian firm is sitting on top of it's own gas field! I mentioned Exxon as economic gameplaying for those that want to take advantage. I respect your feelings, but others may want to take more advantage of the advanced capital market opportunities in some of the Anglo nations.

I am fascinated by the fact that there could be a billion more cbm of gas in the Mako Trough than is now considered commercially extractable. As one of the above articles mentioned, the technology and the cost factors change over time, and gas once considered too difficult or expensive to extract, might become viable in the future. IF that happens, we might be on our way to becoming a wealthy nation someday.

We must prepare for this as a people and a nation! Go back to the list of ten questions I raised above. They are important to a people about to run into some money.

I encourage all of you who have some money to invest, to consider share investment in MOL. Their stock may go down from present levels, but I would just consider that a buying opportunity.

How much risk to take on your capital, is a very personal decision that each individual needs to assess for themselves.

I also encourage you to join others and pool your funds in an investment club, as I have mentioned above. Make some rules, get them into writing, and make sure the prospective members are mature and knowledgable enough to understand risk/return, group responsibility and leadership. Those that want to dance to their own tune and make up their own rules, or dream of a sure thing, need to be excluded.

Finally, we can't just think about ourselves. You can't take money with you into the afterlife! Any success I enjoy through my investments, I will share with Hungarian Universities and scholarship funds in the form of endowments and legacies in my will. A great nation isn't built overnight; it comes about through the planning, participation and leadership of many people. Let's all do our part, whatever we can.

Laci

"We need to partner up with China and Iran, make like Venezuela and F the Anglos and the horses they rode in on."
...Last time I checked, China was Communist, Iran was an Islamic state and Venezuela was moving towards autocracy. Is that really who you want to emulate in Hungary? Considering the open hatred I've seen here aimed at Communists and Muslims, and the anxiety expressed at the thought of once again having an autocratic government, I found this quote interesting.
...and with tongue in cheek, fucking the Anglos is only going to produce more half-Anglos...not something I thought was terribly desirable either given expressions in this forum...as for fucking the horses, well...that's your business.

I'm no expert on geothermal energy, but as I understand, while there is a huge amount of potential energy extracting it in any usable volume is extremely tricky, expensive and as someone here mentioned has the potential to cause local earthquakes.I know of one pilot nearly disappeared into a giant steam bath.With 'hot rock' technology, to get enough volume, and because of the possibility of instability, the steam must be generated in harder rock, which generally requires drilling down to 5 or 6 kilometres. I'm not sure if 'shallow' geothermal energy can produce high volumes, but of course it could still be a useful supplement, which at least could reduce the dependence on Russian gas.As I said though, I'm no expert on this, except to say that it is going to require a lot or R&D and a ton of money to find a way to extract energy in a commercially viable way.

Hello Cinead,

Geothermal has been done elsewhere, especially in places where there are "hotspots" near the surgace. It's here to stay and it's applications will grow in the future.

Because geothermal takes a big up-front investment, and takes a while to recoup costs over conventional power generation, I think it best for Hungary to plan for it's implementation by starting with utilities and institutions. Organizations that already have capital project planning over 5 to 10 (or more) years would be ideal candidates.

The quote you mention from Pávaszem was his response to my suggestion that Hungarians get more involved with Exxon stock. I had one important reason for proposing this:

THEY OWN 40% OF THE LAND IN THE MAKO GAS EXTRACTION ZONE.

What that means is that they are going to get at least 40% of our future gas resources and proceeds! We agreed to this no doubt because they are putting up the know how and project development capital, which is about 18 billion USD before any gas is extracted. Like I said above, it's "unconventional gas", therefore difficult and expensive to extract.

(cont)

The patriot and gamesman in me is a bit taken aback by the 40% figure. That's signing away a lot of future revenue, and I couldn't help but think how we can get back some of the money they make off of us. A deal is a deal, and we can't stick them up at gunpoint like highway bandits, so that leaves only my suggestion that more of us become involved as their shareholders. By "us" I mean especially institutions and corporate entities, starting with MOL. I would like to see MOL start owning tens of thousands of shares in Exxon.

Why? Because when Exxon will suck their share of gas out of Mako and sell it internationally, that will enhance their bottom line and earnings, which will be reflected in their stock value and dividends. I was proposing that Hungarians dip their fingers into that jar; after all, some of that money will be coming from Hungary; some os it should go back! My suggesstion was for this reason only, and not meant to be an endorsement of how Exxon conducts itself in other countries. Whether we like it or not, we are partners with them. I just want to pick their pockets, but legally. After all, they will be picking ours! Exxon and MOL are just two players in a global nergy market; I would suggest divesifying into other energy stocks as well.

I share Pávaszem's enthusiasm for international exploration and deal making. It's a reality of the energy business, and MOL has a proven history of such diversification. MOL is a very impressive Hungarian firm.

For those considering MOL stock ownership, there is one important consideration I previously forgot to mention: that MOL might be bought some day by a bigger consortium. There was already one such attempt in 2007, a hostile takeover bid by the Austrian OMV.

Buyouts are a fact of life in the corporate world. Even being state owned is no insurance against it, as a govt. may decide to sell it's state owned entities anytime.

Buyouts are potentially exciting (and profitable) to shareholders, as the buying entity may have to make a very generous per-share "tender offer", in order to win the voting approval of the stockholders to the deal. Some of the fastest, and biggest fortunes made in the stock market have involved buyouts. Upon news of the tender offer, shares in the firm to be purchased may skyrocket. The company buying often pays way over book value. Keep in mind that one reason such a plan may be to eliminate a firm as a competitor.

I consider MOL (or one of it's subsidiaries) to be a prime target for high level corporate raiders because: 1)It's a cash cow, paying out 5 times the dividend of Exxon(!), 2)it owns many valuable subsidiaries and 3)it owns a big stake in the Mako field. It's a money pump, and such things don't go unoticed in the world of high finance.

MOL is listed on the Budapest Stock Exchange (BUX), on the London Intl. Order Book and the OTC Bulletin Board (over the counter) in the US.

The hostile bid from OMV was part of Russia's strategy to control over part of the new Nabucco pipe-line that is suppose to make Europe more independent of Russia's Gas supplies.
Details in this 2 year old report:
http://www.stratfor.com/hungary_gazproms_subtle_attempt_take_over_mol
-
If you add the immediate purchase of 21% of MOL-share by Russia's Surgutneftegas OJSC when the OMV take over finally collapsed after more than 2 years trying, it is easy to see the pattern.
-
MOL has investments, Joint-Ventures, in Russia.
Suddenly, this year, they got a lot of problems with their local licenses and permits. New demands suddenly came up. All can only be seen as 'not so subtle' attempts to pressure MOL and Hungary to accept what ever Kreml offer for MOL.
-
Russia is the ideal for Jobbik in today's world.
Ask them what they think about this.

Free energy technology is here, now. It offers the
world pollution-free, energy abundance for
everyone, everywhere.
It is now possible to stop the production of
"greenhouse gases" and shut down all of the
nuclear power plants. We can now desalinate
unlimited amounts of seawater at an affordable
price, and bring adequate fresh water to even the
most remote habitats.
Transportation costs and the production costs for
just about everything can drop dramatically. Food
can even be grown in heated greenhouses in the
winter, anywhere.
All of these wonderful benefits that can make life
on this planet so much easier and better for
everyone have been postponed for decades.
Why? Whose purposes are served by this
postponement?
The Invisible Enemy
There are four gigantic forces that have worked
together to create this situation.
But to say that there is and has been a
"conspiracy" to suppress this technology only
leads to a superficial understanding of the world,
and it places the blame for this completely
outside of ourselves. Our willingness to remain
ignorant and actionless in the face of this
situation has always been interpreted by two of
these forces as "implied consent."
So, besides a "non-demanding public," what are the
other three forces that are impeding the
availability of free energy technology?
In standard economic theory, there are three
classes of industry. These are capital, goods, and
services.
Cont:

Within the first class, capital, there are also
three sub-classes. These are:
1. Natural Capital This relates to raw
materials (such as a gold mine) and sources of
energy (such as a hydroelectric dam or an oil
well).
2. Currency This relates to the printing of
paper "money" and the minting of coins. These
functions are usually the job of Government.
3. Credit This relates to the loaning of
money for interest and its extension of economic
value through deposit loan accounts.
From this, it is easy to see that energy functions
in the economy in the same way as gold, the
printing of money by the government, or the
issuing of credit by a bank.
In the United States, and in most other countries
around the world, there is a "money monopoly" in
place. I am "free" to earn as much "money" as I
want, but I will only be paid in Federal Reserve
Notes. There is nothing I can do to be paid in
Gold Certificates, or some other form of "money."
This money monopoly is solely in the hands of a
small number of private stock banks, and these
banks are owned by the Wealthiest Families in the
world. Their plan is eventually to control 100
percent of all of the capital resources of the
world, and thereby to control everyone's life
through the availability (or non-availability) of
all goods and services.
An independent source of wealth (free energy
device) in the hands of each and every person in
the world ruins their plans for world domination,
permanently.
Cont

Why this is true is easy to see. Currently, a
nation's economy can be either slowed down or sped
up by the raising or lowering of interest rates.
But if an independent source of capital (energy)
were present in the economy, and any business or
person could raise more capital without borrowing
it from a bank, this centralized throttling action
on interest rates would simply not have the same
effect.
Free energy technology changes the value of money.
The Wealthiest Families and the Issuers of Credit
do not want competition. It's that simple. They
want to maintain their current monopoly control of
the money supply. For them, free energy technology
is not just something to suppress, it must be
permanently forbidden!
The Second Force
The Second Force operating to postpone the public
availability of free energy technology is national
governments.
The problem here is not so much related to
competition in the printing of currency, but in
the maintenance of National Security.
The fact is that the world out there is a jungle,
and humans can be counted upon to be cruel,
dishonest, and sneaky. It is Government's job to
"provide for the common defense." For this,
"police powers" are delegated by the Executive
Branch of Government to enforce "the rule of law."

Cont

Most of us who consent to the rule of law do so
because we believe it is the right thing to do,
for our own benefit. There are always a few
individuals, however, who believe that their own
benefit is best served by behavior that does not
voluntarily conform to the generally agreed upon
social order. These people choose to operate
outside of "the rule of law" and are considered
outlaws, criminals, subversives, traitors,
revolutionaries, or terrorists.
Most national governments have discovered, by
trial and error, that the only Foreign Policy that
really works, over time, is a policy called "tit
for tat." What this means to you and me is that
governments treat each other the way they are
being treated. There is a constant "jockeying" for
position and influence in world affairs, and the
strongest party wins!
In economics, it's the Golden Rule, which states:
"The one with the gold makes the rules." So it is
with politics, also, but its appearance is more
Darwinian. It's simply "survival of the fittest."
In politics, however, the "fittest" has come to
mean the strongest party who is also willing to
fight the dirtiest.
Absolutely every means available is used to
maintain an advantage over the "adversary," and
everyone else is the "adversary" regardless of
whether they are considered friend or foe.
cont

This includes outrageous psychological posturing,
lying, cheating, spying, stealing, assassination
of world leaders, proxy wars, alliances and
shifting alliances, treaties, foreign aid, and the
presence of military forces wherever possible.
Like it or not, this IS the psychological and
actual arena National Governments operate in. No
national government will ever do anything that
simply gives an adversary an advantage for free.
Never! It's national suicide.
Any activity by any individual, inside or outside
the country, that is interpreted as giving an
adversary an edge or advantage, in any way, will
be deemed a threat to "national security." Always!
Free energy technology is a national government's
worst nightmare! Openly acknowledged, free energy
technology sparks an unlimited arms race by all
governments in a final attempt to gain absolute
advantage and domination.
Think about it. Do you think Japan will not feel
intimidated if China gets free energy? Do you
think Israel will sit by quietly as Iraq acquires
free energy? Do you think India will allow
Pakistan to develop free energy? Do you think the
USA would not try to stop Osama bin Laden from
getting free energy?
Cont

Unlimited energy available to the current state of
affairs on this planet leads to an inevitable
reshuffling of the "balance of power." This could
become an all-out war to prevent "the other" from
having the advantage of unlimited wealth and
power. Everybody will want it, and at the same
time, will want to prevent everyone else from
getting it.
So, national governments are the Second Force
operating to postpone the public availability of
free energy technology. Their motivations are
"self-preservation."
This self-preservation operates on three levels.
First, by not giving undue advantage to an
external enemy. Second, by preventing
individualized action (anarchy) capable of
effectively challenging official police powers
within the country. And third, by preserving
income streams derived from taxing energy sources
currently in use.
Their weapons include preventing of the issuance
of patents based on national security grounds,
legal and illegal harassment of inventors with
criminal charges, tax audits, threats, phone taps,
arrest, arson, theft of property during shipment,
and a host of other intimidations which make the
business of building and marketing a free energy
machine impossible.
Cont

The Third Force
The Third Force operating to postpone the public
availability of free energy technology consists of
the group of deluded inventors and outright
charlatans and con men.
On the periphery of the extraordinary scientific
breakthroughs that constitute the real free energy
technologies lies a shadow world of unexplained
anomalies, marginal inventions, and unscrupulous
promoters.
The first two Forces have constantly used the
media to promote the worst examples of this group,
to distract the public's attention and to
discredit the real breakthroughs by associating
them with the obvious frauds.
Over the last hundred years, dozens of stories
have surfaced about unusual inventions. Some of
these ideas have so captivated the public's
imagination that a mythology about these systems
continues to this day. Names like Keely, Hubbard,
Coler, and Henderschott immediately come to mind.
There may be real technologies behind these names,
but there simply isn't enough technical data
available in the public domain to make a
determination. These names remain associated with
a free energy mythology, however, and are cited by
debunkers as examples of fraud.
The idea of free energy taps very deeply into the
human subconscious mind. A few inventors with
marginal technologies that demonstrate useful
anomalies have mistakenly exaggerated the
importance of their inventions.
Cont

Some of these inventors also have mistakenly
exaggerated the importance of themselves for
having invented it. A combination of "gold fever"
and/or a "messiah complex" appears, wholly
distorting any future contribution they may make.
While the research thread they are following may
hold great promise, they begin to trade enthusiasm
for facts, and the value of the scientific work
from that point on suffers greatly. There is a
powerful, yet subtle seduction that can warp a
personality if they believe that "the world rests
on their shoulders" or that they are the world's
"savior."
Strange things also happen to people when they
think they are about to become extremely rich. It
takes a tremendous spiritual discipline to remain
objective and humble in the presence of a working
free energy machine. Many inventors' psyches
become unstable just believingthey have a free
energy machine.
As the quality of the science deteriorates, some
inventors also develop a "persecution complex"
that makes them very defensive and unapproachable.
This process precludes them from ever really
developing a free energy machine, and fuels the
fraud mythologies tremendously.
Then there are the outright con men. In the last
fifteen years, there is one person in the USA who
has raised the free energy con to a professional
art. He has raised more than $100 million has been
barred from doing business in the State of
Washington, has been jailed in California, and
he's still at it.

Cont

He always talks about a variation of one of the
real free energy systems, sells people on the idea
that they will get one of these systems soon, but
ultimately sells them only promotional information
which gives no real data about the energy system
itself. He has mercilessly preyed upon the
Christian community and the patriot community in
the USA, and is still going strong.
His current scam involves signing up hundreds of
thousands of people at locations where he will
install a free energy machine. In exchange for
letting him put the FE generator in their home,
they will get free electricity for life, and his
company will sell the excess energy back to the
local utility company.
After becoming convinced that they will receive
free electricity for life, with no out-front
expenses, people gladly buy a video that helps
draw their friends into the scam as well.
Once you understand the power and motivations of
the first two Forces I have discussed, it's
obvious that this person's current "business plan"
cannot be implemented. This one person has
probably done more harm to the free energy
movement in the USA than any other Force, by
destroying people's trust in the technology.
So, the Third Force postponing the public
availability of free energy technology is delusion
and dishonesty within the movement itself. The
motivations are self-aggrandizement, greed, desire
for power over others, and a false sense of self-
importance.
Cont

The weapons used are lying, cheating, the "bait
and switch" con, self-delusion, and arrogance,
combined with lousy science.
The Fourth Force
The Fourth Force operating to postpone the public
availability of free energy technology is all of
the rest of us. It may be easy to see how narrow
and despicable the motivations of the other forces
are, but actually, these motivations are still
very much alive in each of us as well.
Like the Wealthiest Families, don't we each
secretly harbor illusions of false superiority,
and they want to control others instead of
ourselves? Also, wouldn't you "sell out" if the
price were high enough? Say, take $1 million cash
today?
Or, like the governments, don't we each want to
ensure our own survival? If caught in the middle
of a full, burning theater, do you panic and push
all of the weaker people out of the way in a mad,
scramble for the door?
Or, like the deluded inventor, don't we trade a
comfortable illusion once in a while for an
uncomfortable fact? And don't we like to think
more of ourselves than others give us credit for?
Or don't we still fear the unknown, even if it
promises a great reward?
You see, really, all Four Forces are just
different aspects of the same process, operating
at different levels in the society.

There is really only ONE FORCE preventing the
public availability of free energy technology, and
that is the unspiritually motivated behavior of
the human animals.
Cont

In the last analysis, free energy technology is an
outward manifestation of Divine Abundance. It is
the engine of the economy of an enlightened
society, where people voluntarily behave in a
respectful and civil manner toward each other.
Where all members of the society have everything
they need, and do not covet what their neighbor
has. Where war and physical violence have become
socially unacceptable behaviors, and people's
differences are at least tolerated, if not
enjoyed.
The appearance of free energy technology in the
public domain is the dawning of a truly civilized
age. It is an epochal event in human history.
Nobody can "take credit" for it. Nobody can "get
rich" on it. Nobody can "rule the world" with it.
It is, simply, a Gift from God. It forces us all
to take responsibility for our own actions and for
our own self-disciplined self-restraint when
needed.
The world as it is currently ordered cannot have
free energy technology without being totally
transformed by it into something else. This
"civilization" has reached the pinnacle of its
development, because it has birthed the seeds of
its own transformation.
Cont

Unspiritualized human animals cannot be trusted
with free energy. They will only do what they have
always done, which is to take merciless advantage
of each other, or kill each other and themselves
in the process.

If you go back and read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged
or the Club of Rome Report, it becomes obvious
that the Wealthiest Families have understood this
for decades. Their plan is to live in The World of
Free Energy, but permanently freeze the rest of us
out.

But this is not new. Royalty has always considered
the general population (us) to be their subjects.
What is new is that you and I can communicate with
each other now better than at anytime in the past.
The Internet offers us, the Fourth Force, an
opportunity to overcome the combined efforts of
the other Forces preventing free energy technology
from spreading. Peter
Lindemann, D. Sc.

FL: I actually think that geothermal energy is a fantastic idea. I didn't mean to sound like I was knocking it. It is one of the few means of pollution free energy that can potentially match the output of coal fired power stations. It will take some huge investment in R&D, but it will ultimately be worth it...the only real alternative with this kind of power is nuclear, and understandably there is a lot of opposition to that. (although personally, I think nuclear has come a long way and done properly doesn't need to be as dangerous as it is perceived)
...I think Exxon is evil.Environmental, social, corporate vandals.

Hi Aladdin

Nicely explained !!

So where does this "Free Energy" come from ?

"free energy technology is an
outward manifestation of Divine Abundance."

As a physicist I could try to teach you the sceond law of thermodynamics - but against this "of Divine Abundance" , well I can only say: Holy Shit!

@Wolfi
Well a sophisticated monkey as yourself will never
know the concept of free energy, if you can't work
it out then you have no hope and you remain an
ignorant fool.

Hi Aladdin
Nicely explained !!
Law at November 30, 2009 2:24 PM
---
I knew it.
Law has a friend.
Yet another Godly inspired.
Why does Akos Gere come into mind?

@Aladdin: Instead of writing thousands of line here - why don't you just show us your "Free Energy" ?

PS: I haven't read the wole shit, but I saw the name "Hubbard" somewhere - ain't he the guy (a really bad science fiction writer he was, BTW) who gave the world Dianetics and Scientology ?

So this is where it comes from/leads to ?

@Wolfi
Ignorant fool you are like your viking friend.
As Aladdin explains ll you do is try and ridicule
anyone who attempts to say the truth. Here is
Hubbard link, and you're the freaks!

http://www.rexresearch.com/hubbard/hubbard.htm

@Law: Sorry, I didn't know that there were at least two cranks with name Hubbard.

But a crank he was, like his namesake...
Taking the newly found LSD might explain a lot.

In science fiction circles there also was "the Dean machine" and other concepts of a "perpetuum mobile"...

Well as I wrote before:

Show us the machine -don't tell us how it is supposed to work, just show us...

PS. The Jobo madnes on this site gets better and better - I can just imagine Magyar Garda riding on a perpetuum mobile into the sky...

I have about me both a pragmatic and a visionary side. So far on this thread, the pragmatic side of me has come out, by dealing with established energy technologies, and the practical aspects of stock ownership therein. I am interested in what we already know, how it can be implemented, as well as how we can practically profit from it. The Mako Trough will start producing gas cmmercially in 2012, and I am excited about that. We are in need of a windfall.

I do not however confine my interest purely in the tried, proven and mundane. The field of theoretical physics gets more exciting by the minute, and celebrity physicist Michio Kaku of NYU talks of many far out sounding possibilities in his books and public appearances. Kaku talks about 11 dimensions, billions of universes and interdimensional wormholes both large and microscopic. He and his collegues are working towards the possibility that energy can be transferred from one dimension to another. The practical realization of such possibilities, he admits may be very far off into the future.

Until then, I don't want to lose sight of the ball in front of us. We only have so many possibilities to work with in the near future, and we have to make the most of them.

I will not lose faith in the idea that there is a great deal more to be learned. Towards that, I will plan to provide scholarships and grants towards developing science and physics in Hungary. A great people must stay on the cutting edge of knowledge.

@FL: Theoretical physics is "exciting" but also very abstract and difficult (as a retired mathematician I do not claim to really "understand" it) - for example so called string theory with its 11 dimensions is maybe going to be tested at the big accelerator in Genf...

BTW a relative of my wife is a professor for theoretical physics - in the USA. On his way to a congress in Genf he might visit his parents in Hungary, but his younger children only speak English/American...
We are thinking of visiting him (and the beautiful part of the US where he and his wife live) next year.

He didn't see a chance staying in Hungary, so if you can do something for the younger scientists there...

I know that many excellent mathematicians and physicists were/are Hungarians, but what would have been/are their chances if they stay in the country ?

Lot of hot air on this thread and not much useful information as per usual.
Orban Viktor makes the grand claim of making Hungary energy independent in 20 years. How???
Many households in Hungary (mine included) have two boilers (the wife/just joking and..gas and electric.Why not a combi-system so the hot water can be used for bathing and the central heating.
Secondly, the cserépkályha with its heat retaining tiles keeps your house warm for longer periods and uses less tuzifa/firewood. Simple solutions to difficult problems.
Alternatively, if you cannot afford firewood, a cserépkályha, central heating, etc. I suggest you buy a bottle of palinka, swallow it and you won't feel anything..including the wife beating you on the head with a coal shovel.

@Tamas: We also use our Kandalo almost every evening, the wood for it has come almost free from the trees I had to fell - and it warms twice, once when you cut and store it and the ...

Some of my neighbours still have their Combi system, where the central heating uses gas or wood, burt it seems these are no longer being made. Maybe people nowadays are too lazy to use firewood ?

cserépkályha and kandalló = not the same thing at all.
The heat-retaining qualities of the cserépkályha
tiles are renowned. ASK any god-fearing Hungarian. They will confirm it.
Kandalló on the other hand is a greedy beast and devours the wood as quick as you can shout "TIMBER".
Combiboiler good option too! Enjoy your nightcap. Cognac or, Horlicks?

@Tamas: I know about the difference in efficiency - and cost...

When I had the house (re)built, I did not think that I would also spend a large part of the winter here, it was really planned as a summer home.

Hi wolfi,

The question you raise is ultimately linked to the economic one, as is most other things. Without a good economy, no job market for highly qualified people. Without a good job market, you get emigration and "brain drain".

This is why I can't emphasise enough the importance of the Mako gas project. It will provide the revenues we need to jumpstart the economy for a number of years and to provide wealth opportunities for some. People can dismiss it and make light of the whole thing, but I don't see any other potential source of export revenue for us that can be comparable.

The revenues from Mako will buy us 30-50 years of time and future income. What we do with it will be a test of our mettle and character. Exxon has already sunk billions into the project in order to get it going. Fools, they aren't. Nor can it be hot air.

I am ready for spirituality - need help with the posting:

1.)Unspiritualized human animals cannot be trusted with free energy. They will only do what they have always done, which is to take merciless advantage of each other, or kill each other and themselves in the process.
2) If you go back and read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged
or the Club of Rome Report, it becomes obvious
that the Wealthiest Families have understood this
for decades. Their plan is to live in The World of
Free Energy, but permanently freeze the rest of us
out.
I just want to understand these two premises so I can come to a conclusion and become both rich and spiritual. Kill 2 birds with one stone so to speak.
So the Wealthiest families (who are these people? ) have understood that spirituality
It is the road not only to incredible wealth but to the monopoly on free energy. I want to sign up for spirituality – I read Atlas Shrugged and I became familiar with the Club of Rome years ago when I had to write an essay. I don’t recall anything about the wealthy families understanding “free energy” – please clarify
Good thing Alice Rosenbaum is not living in today’s Hungary – I gather she would be persona no grata.

Dear Olga,

There are a number of people involved with spritualism and metaphysics, who feel that the level a civilization reaches is dicated by group karma. That would address your first point.

The second point you raise reminds me of a number of fringe scientific researchers, who have been saying that a number of important discoveries get squashed because they conflict with established economic interests. It's a big conspiracy subject, as you can imagine.

I am not here on a political/secular website to defend these views. I haven't met the lords of Karms, nor do I know personally of any great breakthrough discoveries that have been deliberately suppressed. I have however, heard of such things for many years and from many sources. They may contain some truth. I don't think Aladin/Law are the lone cranks that they may sound like to some here. I just don't think this is the ideal website to air out such ideas.

So long as we respect each other, I respect every person's right to contribute what they can to any discussion. We can learn from one another.

Myself, I plan to make money in Hungarian natural gas. I will then endow universities and make it possible for other young Hungarians to get a good education. I invite anyone else who wants to, to join me in these objectives.

@ Farkas Laszlo

In reference to "There are a number of people involved with spiritualism and metaphysics, who feel that the level a civilization reaches is dicated by group karma. " - please do not think I would make light of that statement. Or for that matter, anything I have ever read that you posted.

I am familiar with The Club of Rome and its 70’s report “ Limits to Growth” It predicted that economic growth could not go on indefinitely because of our limited availability of natural resources.

There is no mention of “wealthy families” nor "Unspiritualized human animals” Statements like that make me wonder about the poster’s grip on reality.

Ayn Rand was an avowed atheist. Spiritualism is a religious belief emphasizing the spiritual aspect of being. Does that make her into an "unspiritualized human animal" what is the point of even bringing up her name on this particular thread?

On the other hand I was very interested in the topic of energy independence and found your postings and others’ very educational – I had no idea about Hungary’s natural gas reserves nor have I ever heard of MOL before.

You deal with facts - Aladin mixed facts with nonsense.

BTW - I loved the "cserépkályha" solution.

THE CLUB OF ROME are devilish characters!!

Hello Olga,

I appreciate that. I've been working hard here to get others to see just what the profound implications are, of Hungary coming into a natural resource related economic boost and windfall. I have also endeavored to get ordinary readers to think about how they can participate in the coming boom.

Even with Exxon getting their 40% plus cut, our nation stands to make a huge gain in coming years. That is the hard part for many Hungarians to digest, being a people so unused to good fortune and economic self-empowerment.

I want to see these revenues put to good use. I don't want for our wealthy class to become like the Nigerian elites! It is of vital importance that the money be used for improving the nation and making it more modern and competitive.

I was discussing with Wolfi the lack of employment opportunities in Hungary for high level scientists. The best way to arrest this brain drain is to endow universities, as I have suggested doing above. In many countries, especially in the Anglo Saxon world, there is a very long tradition of private wealth endowing colleges and universities.[Harvard University has an endowment of around 34 BILLION DOLLARS, a mindboggling sum for a private educational institution!] It is this money, and the returns thereon, that allow for the hiring of top, world class faculty. Business investment often responds to the availability of top educated talent.

There is an article on the BBC Science page today, that talks of solar electric panels coming down in price:

"Solar panel costs 'set to fall' "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8386460.stm

The article mentions that useful life of the panels has increased, to around 30 years, up from before. It also mentions that large scale production of them has increased in a number of countries, also helping to bring down the cost. It mentions an idea floating around in some European countries, that the cost of them should be mortgageable with banks, an interesting idea. (They still cost a lot of money when used to power large homes and buildings.)

Once someone has installed and plugged them in, they can also be used to SELL (as opposed to buying!) electricity to the electric utility company.

@FL:

Selling electricity generated by solar panels (or wind turbines) is already an attractive option, because the seller is guaranteed a (ridiculously high) price...

Thanks wolfi, a little cynical humor is always welcome!

Solar electricity is projected to become a big growth industry in coming years. The BBC article suggests extensive solar electric coverage in many parts of Europe by 2020. Also mentioned are large mass production facilities in India and China.

Finally, there is talk nowadays of significant technological breakthroughs that can lead to making them without the need for using scarce, rare earth minerals like Gallium, which keeps the current price high. If that can be done, it would lead to a new energy revolution throughout the world.

My research into Hungary's natural gas deposits has brought the MOL firm to my attention from a shareholder's perspective. I will now diversify my stock research to focus on which firms to consider investing in, in order to take advantage of a coming solar electric boom. Companies that are on the cutting edge of new technology, as well as those that are set up for very large scale production, would in my opinion be very good growth stocks in the coming years.

Over the next few days, I will research his subject more thoroughly. I expect that the suggested investment candidates will be in a number of countries, including US, Europe, China and India, and publicly listed.

I hope to inspre you to not just think for yourselves, but of our nation as well. Buy some of these stocks and put them in trust to a school or college while alive, as well as in a will!

@FL: I forgot to mention that this is the case only in Germany (as far as I know)!

Of course solar energy will become more important as it gets cheaper, there already are plans in discussion for putting up large solar panels in the Sahara, where obviously there is more sunshine than in the Black Forest (where I live in Germany)...

Interestingly enough that idea has been proposed in Science Fiction novels at lest for 50 years...

BTW another interesting SF-idea just resurfaced in one of yesterday's or sunday's Hungarian newspapers: the sky elevator, 40.000 km long that could be used to put satellites into orbit without rockets...

Maybe in a hundred or a thousand years, we don't know...

Dear wolfi,

Once one recoups the cost of the panels and any extra wiring they may require, any power generated over and above those needed by the home or building can be sold to the local electric utility. For how much of course depends on the locality and ountry.

I've begun my preliminary research into solar electric panel production. So far what I am finding out is the commendable role that Germany plays in production, development and public policy. Germany is a big maker, and the German govt has done quite a bit, through policy and tax incentives, to get the country going mor in this direction.

I will do some more research as to which companies would be a good long term investment, and report back to our community in a few days, on this thread.

I have heard of the sky elevator. Interesting idea. The cost of contruction would be phenomenal and the project unprecedented in nature. There is a "Murphy's Law" that rules such bold ideas, and that is that as soon as such a thing is built, technology discovers a cheaper and more effective alternative!

Hi F.L.

You education plan sounds sound - hope Hungarians buy into it. Canadian Universities have the same
endowment policies although I am certain they are a lot "poorer" than Harvard.

Canada has a brain drain to the US - especially doctors where earning can be unlimited. There is a cap on doctors' earnings in Canada and I assume Ayn Rand would not approve. (I remember being shocked about her attitude towards blue collar work as opposed to work done by the fictional John Galts of this world)

I once met a doctor from Hungary who was specifically "imported" because he was light years ahead in cancer research. After he fulfilled his obligations to Canada, off he went to the USA never to be heard from again.

On the subject of energy/global warming etc - I gather you know all about the meeting in Copenhagen. Our Prime Minister was not going to attend and there was so much public pressure, he changed his mind. (Not sure if Copenhagen was mentioned or not on this website or if a representative from Hungary is going or not)

Anyway, as usual the naysayers came out. Jaj!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/6679082/Climate-change-this-is-the-worst-scientific-scandal-of-our-generation.html

Moral of the Story: "You see, ya can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself"

Bet you know where that line came from.

Science Fraud
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/741.html

2 things about 'buy-back' solar/wind energy to the local electricity company.
* In Hungary the Electricity Company is only forced to approve this if the selling back volume is a minimum of 100 KW (from the comment Viking at November 20, 2009 3:00 PM above).
This means that this in Hungary is just an option for those industries that can produce surplus energy. And those we have a lot of.
-
* In Germany it has been complaints that the Electricity Company stops receiving the 'buy-back' energy when the winds get a bit stormy.
This is due to deficits in the distribution network, it can just not handle the load.
-------
Both these cases above are related to the distribution network for electricity. It is old and maintenance is expensive. It was originally designed to distribute huge amount of energy from a few points to small users.
It is very expensive to change this infrastructure that started to be built 100 years ago.
-
All above said, as stated in earlier posts, I have made substantial personal investments in 'sun-water energy' for heating and the next big step will be to introduce solar panels to produce electricity.
The main reason why I did not start with that was that efficiency-wise nothing beats 'sun-water energy', it can have an efficiency-rate above 30%. Solar-panels are 10-20% and only under good conditions.
I do not plan to 'sell-back' anything produced, just finding a way to have an Island inegrated with the net. At the moment I do not think this exist.

Hello Viking,

I appreciate the informed posts! We can learn a lot here.

Home utilization of solar panels may also require extra wiring work, which of course costs money. I'm just hoping the price of the panels comes down significantly.

Crikey, 94 comments and none dealing with the actual substance of the post, namely that it's silly to talk about energy independence without first addressing the subsidizing of energy consumption. Millions of Hungarian households are getting gas for less than the actual price, or are locked into panel house district heating systems in which the only way to turn down the heat is to open the window. Why is it impossible for people to focus on these basic challenges without zooming off to talk about next generation geothermal or gas recovery?

It wasn't me!!

@Cináed: "fucking the Anglos is only going to produce more half-Anglos..." You have a point there… OK, so, fucking Anglos may be counterproductive. You shouldn't knock fucking their horses though. It may not have worked for you but it just may solve our problems! A nation of Centaurs? http://tr.im/Gunx Hey, would there be anything we couldn't do? :-)) "Last time I checked, China was Communist, Iran was an Islamic state and Venezuela was moving towards autocracy…" And they are still the lesser evil. "Considering the open hatred I've seen here aimed at... Muslims," Muslims? Aren't you confusing Muslims with someone else? Do you know how closely we're related to Persians? (Why would you, Hungarians don't even know...) As for Communists, have you seen a bad word written about Imre Nagy here? "while there is a huge amount of potential energy extracting it in any usable volume is extremely tricky, expensive..." Are you saying that our only option is to hand over our entire energy sector to a corporation that you yourself describe as evil? And how are the Russians worse anyway? "nuclear... there is a lot of opposition to that..." "Used to be" a lot of opposition. The only opposition now is stage managed by the ExxonMobils and their whore governments.

@Laci: "I am most definitely investing in MOL personally!" Which I think is wrong. MOL is a pseudo-Hungarian company, Hungarian like ships of Liberian registry are Liberian, not even the percentage that is shown as Hungarian-owned is Hungarian: It's foreign corporations registered in Hungary as 'magyar jogi személyek' It's all done with mirrors. And buying their stock is just like buying ExxonMobil stock which is just like resisting Soviet occupation by joining the Communist Party. "THEY OWN 40% " They own 40% on paper. They probably own 100% in real life of which 98% will be taken out of the country. Read Klein and Perkins for details on how they usually work this. These people are crooks plain and simple. Legal crooks but crooks anyway. Look at the people that invested in Enron. Well to do, retired folks that are neither now. They are flipping hamburgers at McDonald's getting super-sized in more ways than one until they die. Is that what we should do? "we can't stick them up at gunpoint like highway bandits," You've got it backwards they are the bandits and kicking their butts all the way back to Texas is a lot less than they deserve. The correct question to ask regarding our energy resources/sector is always: 'What would Chávez do?' :-))
@kisfarkas: "what would have been/are their chances if they stay in the country ?" Compare the French of Quebec or Louisiana to the French of France and you will know why ;)

@Viking: "Why does Akos Gere come into mind?" Because you can't concentrate. We're discussing energy now NOT Gypsy crime ;)
@Erik: "it's silly to talk about energy independence without first addressing the subsidizing of energy consumption..." Which should be subsidized like it's subsidized in Norway, Dubai or Venezuela. And "panel house district heating systems" will be fixed or replaced as soon as the funds to modernize them are not siphoned off by crooks and 'multinational' corporations. (Have I just repeated myself?)

@Viking: "Why does Akos Gere come into mind?" Because you can't concentrate. We're discussing energy now NOT Gypsy crime ;)
Pávaszem at December 3, 2009 9:06 AM
---
So what?
Akos Gere is Roma or 'killing fellow students' is a typical "Gypsy crime"?
I think I lost you there...

To my readers and to our community:

It was initially brought to my attention by justasking that Falcon oil made some public announcements in Oct concerning the viability of the Mako gas field uccrently under development. Sure enough, they did make some announcements to the effect that they were disappointed with the results, and that they propose capping the wells.

Capping otherwise productive wells is an old practice in the energy industry. Having worked with a wildcat oil company in the past, and following energy market news as part of trading in energy futures and option, I can tell you that the practice is quite common.

Hungary is in a position similiar to a private property owner, who is approached by an oil or gas firm, that seeks to drill on his land. Ususally a contract is drawn up, selling the oil firm an "option" to drill within a certain amount of time. If that doesn't happen, a new contract and fee is negotiated. What these kinds of contracts don't usually do for the landholder is force the oil company to pump the oil if any is found. It takes a property owner with a very savvy lawyer to prevent such contingencies like capping, or inserting provisions to the effect that you either produce, or get out. That way you pass the whole risk on to the producer.

I'm not sure on what terms our govt. has allowed foeriegn oil companies to occupy 250,000 acres of land. It would be a good thing to find out.

(cont)

The main reasons for capping an otherwise productive well are to support a certain market price. Leave aside a situation where the product is of very poor quality, or truly too expensive to extract. Perfectly good wells have been capped all over the world for no other reason than to support the world price at a certain level, or production would be kept to a deliberately low level for the same purpose.

The other reason a major might spend money to develop a field only to cap it, is to keep competitors from getting the field and undercutting them with increased production. For them, the whole sunk cost of development becomes a wrtie-off as well as an investment in maintaining the current market price. The way these majors see all of this might be new to some of you; think of it as a high flying, high stakes version of poker of Monopoly, and you wouldn't be very far off.

The entry of Hungary into the arena of major energy production as a newcomer may not be appreciated by those who are already well established in the business. "Trusts" and monopolies to restrain competition are as old as the oil business itself, going back to the days of Robber Baron John D. Rockefeller and Standard Oil. Player, beware.

On the BBC, look at:

Russia-Ukraine dispute 'could lead to EU oil cuts'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8432779.stm

Our future prosperity and energy independence is at stake.

I did not find any press release from MOL on their website about the Falcon Oil announcement. You have two other majors besides Falcon in the mix, and so far only Falcon is sounding pessimistic about Mako. MOL stock since October has not only held steady, but has actually edged upwards.

The combination of the above issues and concerns made me write to MOL and request a response. I have adressed a communication to Hungarian Press officer:

Somlyai Dóra,

Director of Hungarian
Corporate Communications

pressoffice@mol.hu

The email to follow in the next post.

Dear Ms.Somlyai,

I am active on an English website out of Budapest called www.politics.hu. There we were discussing the Makó gas field that MOL is helping to develop. To the readers there I have been advocating share buying and ownership in MOL as a way to profit from the development of that gas field.


Here's why I am writing to MOL. Someone there told us that they own shares in Falcon Oil, one of the companies developing the field along with Exxon and MOL. It was said that Falcon made a public statement to the effect that they are disappointed with the results of the exploratory drilling, and that they advocate capping the well. Looking at the MOL website, I can't find any agreement with this, nor did I see anything from Exxon.


I am eager to get a statement from MOL that I can publicly post about this matter on www.politics.hu


1)Is the project still on for extraction, initially expected for 2012? If so, at what projected volume?

2)Are the wells getting capped?

3)If foreign oil companies lose interest, what are our options? My own view has been either ask them to develop the field of get out. What policy options do you advocate for the Hungarian govt. if parties like Exxon and Falcon just want to cap the wells? Should any public money or publicly arranged financing be employed towards completing the project?


(cont)

To Ms Somlyai cont:

I used to work with an oil company that did wildcat drilling, besides having traded energy futures and options. I've learned to be plenty cynical and wary where there is so much money at stake. I also believe that the entry of Hungary as a newcomer to energy production may not be welcome to those who are already established producers.


We've got to get that wealth out of the ground! As an economically struggling nation ,we need it badly. It is not only required for economic stimulus but for energy independence as well.


I am posting this communication on a thread at: http://www.politics.hu/20091117/orbans-energy-independence-pledge-just-a-bunch-of-hot-air#c41


I hope that you or someone at MOL can furnish a response to my concerns. Any response will be posted on the above thread.

Thank you in advance,

Farkas László

Well done Farkas László. I hope you get a response.
I think you have set a precedent in actually doing something "positive" to help this country.
Apart from picking (and "drilling") holes in everything we see and hear its time for us all to suggest alternatives and find ways like you have done to help.
PS.
Researching some interesting stuff on London Films and the "Korda" connection. Mounds of stuff to wade through, but hope to have some info shortly.
regards S.

Kedves Sandor,

Thank you for your support and encouragement! This time I am asking everyone to be aware of the issue and to tell others. We must all get involved, as our economic future is at stake.

I will get a response from MOL, one way or another. I'm hoping that response will be relevant to my specific questions and concerns. Fear not, they won't shake me off easily. We are after all publicly discussing their role, in a public forum; we don't know just how many people are reading here, or in what position they are. It wouldn't be wise or courteous for them to ignore me. Especially so when I am proposing that they are a good potential stock investment.

We also need to escalate this matter to our political parties and leaders. The more public awareness, the better.

We're going to have a hard time generating prosperity out of the gas, even if it does start to flow. Please review my posts earlier on this thread, especially my point by point concerns expressed on November 25, 2009 8:47 PM. What stands to kill us is the sheer inexperience and unsophistication of our political system and our general population in handling and building corporate wealth. It also worries me that we do not have the funds and expertise to develop the field without foreign partners. We are sheep among wolves.

We can discuss collective approaches, but I would also try to profit from this development privately. The more Hungarians make money off of this, the better!

Boldog újévet akarok kívánni mindenkinek!

I want to wish everybody a Happy New Year!

Tonight is also my birthday; I was born 3 minutes after midnight on January 1!

buek!!!

boldog szülinapot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqdUT9ve6n0

@Laci: A very Happy Birthday to you. I'll have a second glass for you - thanks for the excuse!!

@ Laci;

Happy Birthday!

Z

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