Politicians and supporters of Hungary’s far right are responsible for the confrontation at the weekend between local Roma residents and supporters of the radical nationalist Jobbik party and its banned uniformed wing, the Hungarian Guard in Sajobabony (NE), the minister in charge of the civilian secret services said after a meeting of the national security cabinet on Tuesday.
Gabor Juhasz insisted that the police had handled the events in a professional manner.
The local organisation of the ruling Socialist Party on Tuesday asked Justice Minister Tibor Draskovics to reinforce local police in the county and set up a police station in Sajobabony.
On Saturday, Jobbik held a public forum in the town, which provoked a demonstration by 200-300 members of the local Roma community. Police prevented violent confrontation, but hostilities resumed the next day. One woman was injured and the windshield of a car was smashed in the incident.
Jobbik’s local leader Gabor Bencs told MTI that they had been attacked by 30 to 40 Roma people armed with hoes and axes.
“We did not provoked the local minority,” he said.
On the outskirts of the town, at least 100 local Roma gathered around a bonfire, shouting insults at those approaching them.
Police introduced strict security measures throughout the whole territory of Borsod-Abauj-Zemplen county where the town is located.
Please look at the following video in which the Mayor of Sajóbábony is interviewed on the main M1 TV channel, this Tuesday the 17th of November, a full 24hrs before this MTI propaganda piece (you will see I do not use the term lightly).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB-p9gdyvIQ
at 5 minutes 7 seconds
Betlen János (szerkesztő): De ez nem még…. ez nem tömegverekedés. Vagy Igen?
Nagy Imre (polgármester): Nem volt. Nem nem nem.
B.J.: Mert ugye az összes hír arról szólt tegnap, fél napon keresztül éjfélig bezárólag: hogy tömegverekedés.
N.I.: Azok nem voltak valós hírek.
B.J.: a ha
Translation:
János Betlen (presenter): But this isn’t yet… this wasn’t mob violence (rioting). Or was it?
Imre Nagy (mayor): There wasn’t. No no no.
J.B.: Because of course what all the news stories were about yesterday, for half the day right up until midnight: was that there were gangs fighting with each other (tömegverekedés).
I.N.: Those news stories were not true.
J.B.: Ah ha.
So I do hope the international community has enjoyed its English language bullshit for breakfast. They will no doubt lap it up, but I trust they will excuse some of us if we chose not to swallow it quite so eagerly…
@ERIK
In Sajobabony and county population who live are quite amazed at the news reports released, and many have made comments that they are appalled at the lies the media are spreading about the Hungarians, which has worked in favor of Jobbik. Even the news report by Erik the Neo liberal are appalling, as follows
“ radical nationalist Jobbik party and its banned uniformed wing, the Hungarian Guard “
Erik you went to town on the adjectives you Lying BASTARD!!!!
Like your whole Communist Gang of crooks who you continuously stick your head up one another’s Ass, and you expect to be treated like an honest citizen? You’re going to face the music when Jobbik are in power for your lies and manipulation you fucking LYING COMMUNIST BASTARDS!!
@Tormay Cécile
As a self-confessed right-winger I agree with you wholeheartedly that it is quite plain (as mentioned the Mayor himself is saying so – and this is an MSZP mayor who is unlikely to be sympathetic to Jobbik because they consitute his greatest electoral threat) that Grade-A lies are being deliberately promoted about events in Sajóbábony.
However I do not consider the phrase “radical nationalist Jobbik party and its banned uniformed wing” to be a distortion at all. “Radical Nationalist” is how Jobbik describes itself, and “banned uniformed wing” is probably the most preferable term as it is clearly much better than the totally inaccurate, “militia” or “paramilitary.”
But clearly the terrestrial media have absolutely gone to town over this. The above report starts by talking about the Hungarian Guards “soldiers” for heaven’s sake. It is not an overstatement to say that there is ample proof of a deliberate and orchestrated campaign of lies going on here: you’ll notice that the whole bit about ‘A group of angry Roma smashed a parked car with shovels and several of them shouted “by morning we shall kill all Hungarians,” according to reports.’ is curiously absent for some reason… I wonder why?
So much for “yesterday’s news,” eh VándolróIQ?
Tormay Cécile, this article was written by MTI, the Hungarian news service, and not by Erik. It says “by MTI” at the top, just below the headline, which would make it clear to most people who authored the piece, but then again, I shouldn’t be surprised that you weren’t able to grasp that.
Well erik is uploading fiction based lies not factual evidence, where is the “Intelligence source for intelligence on Hungarian politics? “
Journalism here represents a novice attempt to write on politics, or in my view he is a journalist prostitute, unfortunately foreigners read this portal and base their opinions on the garbage written.
Jobbik identified the problem with this MTI some time ago.
„MTI’s “impartiality” warrants official enquiry”
http://www.jobbik.com/hungary-news/3121.html
@Jobbik-people on this site:
Don’t you get it ? Your stupid propaganda is not working – every intelligent person on this site immediately recognizes your rantings and lies, so nobody here takes seriously what law, bobshitting inhistrousers…, bernie and the other fascists produce!
It really is a waste of your and our time!
Sometime I browse through your longwinded silly ramblings (citing sources from Jobbik propaganda eg) just to get a laugh – most of the times I just scroll down until I find something worth of my attention by Erik, david, Vandorlo, to name a few intelligent people here…
Jobbik is just too stupid to be taken seriously…
@wolfi
Or could it be that you treat the threat from Jobbik all too seriously: which is why you call it stupid? Who knows.
But anyway, I didn’t realize the MSZP mayor of Sajóbábony was a Jobbik stooge…
Given that you don’t believe this to be a “stupid” idea, please, do tell us more about it.
Bobs.,
“I didn’t realize the MSZP mayor of Sajóbábony was a Jobbik stooge…”
Presumably, he’s not part of the “deliberate and orchestrated campaign of lies” either – which makes me wonder, orchestrated by who?
wolfie:
“@Jobbik-people on this site:
Don’t you get it ? Your stupid propaganda is not working – every intelligent person on this site immediately recognizes your rantings and lies, so nobody here takes seriously what law, bobshitting inhistrousers…, bernie and the other fascists produce!”
Bernie is no “fascist”, wolfie. Bernie is just wondering how does a German boy, such as you wolfie, get the gall to call these Jobbik Hungarians “fascists” whose mothers and fathers were probably hiding our Jewish people from your German father and uncles looking for Jews to snuff out.
You sound very confused, wolfie.
János Betlen (presenter): But this isn’t yet… this wasn’t mob violence (rioting). Or was it?
Imre Nagy (mayor): There wasn’t. No no no.
J.B.: Because of course what all the news stories were about yesterday, for half the day right up until midnight: was that there were gangs fighting with each other (tömegverekedés).
I.N.: Those news stories were not true.
J.B.: Ah ha.
So I do hope the international community has enjoyed its English language bullshit for breakfast. They will no doubt lap it up, but I trust they will excuse some of us if we chose not to swallow it quite so eagerly…
Bobscountrybunker at November 18, 2009 11:46 AM
====================
So, to interpret Bob correct:
- There were no riots,
- There were no gangs fighting against each other
- Jobbik was not attacked by any one from the local minority
—-
So it was a normal day in the sun?
Nothing happened, more than the Police closed off the only road to a village, or are those TV-pictures from another exercise?
What is interesting is our retarded friend ‘visiting the sins of the father onto the son’ for Germans along with the virtues for Hungarians. It must really be great living in the past.
False choice ALARM!!
False choice ALARM!!
False choice ALARM!!
False choice ALARM!!
Ahh… up to his old tricks again. Perhaps someone might explain the difference to him between opinion expressed by me, and witness testimony voiced by someone who was actually there i.e. the Mayor of Sajóbábony.
Then maybe he might also tell us why he thinks his own version of events to be superior to that of a first-hand witness, who has said (look at the headline of this article) there was NO race riot.
A race riot involves at least TWO races.
You can still have unrest, damage, intimidation and violence: but it is only being committed by one party. But this doesn’t count as a tömegverekedés.
If a person might still be confused as to which party that would be, I always find it best to blame the ones wielding axes and screaming murderous racist epithets… but that’s just me.
Other people, the secret-service head for example, somehow think this is just fine: providing of course there is sufficient “provocation” e.g. the wearing of certain types of clothing.
Ask your selves the following questions:
What kind of “hearing”, was this, and how is it possible that the inhabitants of the town were not invited, not welcome.
- if it was in the city hall, how was it possible that the use of the local government building can be used for purposes like this?
- what was the purpose of the hearing? and who were invited? Shortly, who were the people who “heard the hearing”? and what was heard?
- how is it is possible, that the major can refuse to give an interview, – as it happened yesterday – (because of lack of time?)
This part of Hungary is in the same neighbourhood where last year nine Roma were killed. (A few weeks ago, they caught the murderers, the court-case is currently in progress)
Presently there are a lot anti-Roma sentiments in the press. Are Roma being made scapegoats again. What was the purpose of this meeting of Jobbiks and why in a government building?
“Secret services head pins responsibility for race riot on far-right”
Who in his right mind would expect the truth from
a “secret services head” when he is speaking to the public?
A race riot involves at least TWO races
Bobscountrybunker at November 19, 2009 3:02 PM
Viking, you are right. This whole story stinks. Jobbik is behind this somehow.
@Plumcrazy
So it is perfectly feasible to consider Jobbik to be “behind this somehow”? But the idea of the government being “behind this somehow” is just the conspiracy theorizing of a deranged mind? Uh-huh.
People always come out with this platitude (the interviewer of Vona in the initial video), about these things somehow working out in Jobbik’s favour, but they are never kind enough to explain how that might possibly be… would either of you care to tell us?
How is it that Jobbik (hardly the party of the rich) will benefit, from Guard members now being subject to 50,000 fines for wearing uniform? How will the court cases that will no doubt follow on from this edict, and will deplete the party’s election funds (surely never the intended outcome of these events), is some sort of devilishly cunning move by which guaranteed victory in 2010 is to be secured.
You are clearly perceiving a higher reality that is beyond my meagre abilities to penetrate, and I would beg you, oh sage ones, to enlighten me…
@ Bobby;
” Oh sage ones” That was good!
How is it that Jobbik (hardly the party of the rich) will benefit, from Guard members now being subject to 50,000 fines for wearing uniform?
…
How will the court cases that will no doubt follow on from this edict, and will deplete the party’s election funds
Bobscountrybunker at November 20, 2009 3:20 AM
—
1) Time to start following *both* the letter and intention of the Law, as expressed in a Court verdict?
-
2) Time to get some legal advice, maybe befriend some lawyers friendly to the Party?
Or those do not exist?
-
3) If “the party’s election funds” are used to other things than promoting the Party’s campaigning, it is probably a breach against the Rules on Fund Raising (see earlier point)
-
4) If convicted people gets their fines paid for by someone else, they need to declare that in the next Tax declaration and pay the appropriate taxes for that.
Jobbik does not want to support Tax evation and cheating?
See earlier point on legal advice.
-
5) How about stop this mouse-tactic, complaining how ‘everyone is sooo bad with us, slapping us with fines when we do anything illegal’ and becoming a Man instead?
Fascinating.
From what I recall, I asked for an explanation of why people thought that Jobbik was going to benefit from the events in Sajóbábony – in order that the contention that they had orchestrated it, which is continually being implied…
That the aim of Jobbik/Magyar Garda is to provoke re-action against them and then play the innocent mouse-trick.
Viking at November 20, 2009 12:11 AM
Viking, you are right. This whole story stinks. Jobbik is behind this somehow.
Plumcrazy at November 20, 2009 12:51 AM
…might actually be supported.
Unfortunately it seems, no-one feels up to the task.
That’s a shame.
Bobs.,
“that Jobbik was going to benefit from the events in Sajóbábony – in order that the contention that they had orchestrated it, which is continually being implied……might actually be supported.”
I think that you are rushing through three important distinctions here.
A) I think that Jobbik’s policy of organising meetings where there is a significant gypsy minority/majority is deliberately provocative. This I derive from common sense.
B) I don’t think that Jobbik orchestrated the violence, and have seen no evidence that suggests this.
C) Nor do I think that the Jobbik leadership necessarily feel that they would benefit from gypsy violence directed at them.
I don’t have to believe B) and C) to believe A).
Here is a example of how many people are supporting Magyar Garda, seems like quite a few interested souls who have awoken, Adjon az Isten – Szebb jövőt!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERK2aXUtWOA&feature=player_embedded#
You are so right, sister Viking! The law is the law and we want to get all the thieves and other lawbreakers as long as they are not our Jewish, ahem Hungarian brothers and sisters in the Communist MSZP and SZDSZ.
@Bobscountrybunker
I believe that the Jobbik provoked the Roma. This is the neighbourhood where Roma have been living under considerable tensions because of the recent attacks and now on-going court cases. The Jobbik knew it would not take much to provoke the Roma. I believe that the Roma were manipulated into a position where they could not back down or from which they could not withdraw. Thus, the Jobbik can now capitalize on the pre-existing prejudices and issues in this area and now use these same issues as a soapbox for garnering support. I don’t believe they expected it to go this far. But what the hay, it is only Gypsies. No one can or will listen to the Roma anyway. They have even less money than the Jobbiks for lawyers. And of course, the Jobbik can now feign victimhood when held accountable. Those terrible Gypsies!
@Plumcrazy
Great to see you acknowledge that the gypsies are the provocateurs, Jobbik organized meetings in these areas of Hungary because there is a huge concern for the safety of Hungarians!! any logical party who is concerned for it’s people would go to a city or town to try and help with gypsy crimes , are you that closed minded? There is no police force in many of these towns and the gypsies terrorize the local Hungarians, I know many cases of families that can’t leave their homes because of the fear of break and enter, and won’t step out of there house after nightfall. The current police are doing jack shit to help.
Adjon az Isten – Szebb jövőt!
Great to see you acknowledge that the gypsies are the provocateurs, Jobbik organized meetings in these areas of Hungary because there is a huge concern for the safety of Hungarians!!
Law at November 21, 2009 9:13 AM
—-
You are an ignorant fuck who cannot even read properly, even less grasp the text.
Try a dictionary to figure out the difference between:
===
I believe that the Jobbik provoked the Roma
Plumcrazy at November 20, 2009 5:19 PM
===
and yours “the gypsies are the provocateurs”.
-
Also, I would not suggest that you define “Hungarians” as not being “gypsies”.
Of course if you want to take that discussion, please define “Hungarian” you inbreed Australian import.
Just show me a “Hungarian” who does not have ‘Jewish’, ‘Muslim’, Roma, Slav, German, -blood in their veins for the last 7 generations.
7 generations is the minimum to prove ‘purity’ and ‘originality’.
@Viking you Poof!
Gypsies will always call themselves Roma before Hungarian. FACT!
Hungarian is living like a Hungarian!
Hungary was one of the first nations to have multi culti within its borders and then slowly they turned on Hungarians and had their own countries develop from ours. Trianon!! FACT!
Hun, Avar and Scyth Empire has been in the Carpathian basin before the Magyars, we are all related spiritually, culturally and blood, FACT!
I’m not Australian citizen you dumb fucK! that is a FACT!!!
Law: “Gypsies will always call themselves Roma before Hungarian”
=
Does that make Hungarians from the Schwab minority being *not* Hungarians?
–
Law: “Hungarian is living like a Hungarian!”
=
In what sense does an “Hungarian” live any different from any others, like Slovak, Romanian, Serbs, German?
–
Law: “Hungary was one of the first nations to have multi culti within its borders”
=
??? Any example on that?
–
Law: “Hun, Avar and Scyth Empire has been in the Carpathian basin before the Magyars, we are all related spiritually, culturally and blood”
=
But the “Hun, Avar and Scyth Empire” had never ever a concept of a Hungarian State, that started with the ‘Big Hungarian Traitor’ Istvan Kiraly, who sold the ‘Hungarian Nation’ to the Vatican for a King’s Crown.
On the other hand Istvan Kiraly had a Vikinga sword and Vikings among his bodyguards. He obviously did not trust these ‘Hungarians’.
–
Law: “I’m not Australian citizen you dumb fucK! that is a FACT!!!”
=
And the proof is your spelling?
Not being an Australian citizen does not make you an Hungarian citizen, especially as you were not born in Hungary.
How do we know that you are a real ‘Tiszta Magyar’ and not mixed with “‘jewish’, ‘muslim’, serb, slav, dacian, You-Name-What-Has-Been-In-The-Region”.
And, the most important question, how do *you* know?
After all, maybe you are just a typical Tom-Tom Hungarian, like Ricsi.
—
All quotes from the post above:
(Law at November 21, 2009 11:13 AM)
Ahh now we’re talking.
Finally the jus soli and jus sanguinis distinction is coming into play.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli
Just because (in the case of Germany, very-) contemporary national and EU convention has adopted jus soli, doesn’t mean that the Central European region hasn’t for the majority of its history applied jus sanguinis.
And before people jump to the conclusion that this is further proof, if further proof were needed, of the region’s inherent nasty, racist, bigotted, illiberal character – you should pause for a second to aprehend the historical reality.
The fact is that jus sanguinis was adopted from the most liberal motives. In a region where the borders were continually changing – from one Kingdom here, to a Principality there and then maybe back to a Duchy again. Jus sanguinis liberated the individual, it meant he was not tied to the land and, essentially, the property of whichever Duke just happened to rule the territory he was born into; but rather the ethnicity that gave him/her birth. It freed much of Europe from serfdom.
And needless to say the axiomatic acceptance of jus soli is not a global given. It is confined pretty much to North America, Commonwealth Australasia, and Europe. The rest of the world, its majority in fact, take jus sanguinis as a given.
@Viking
Fair suck of the saveloy!
Let me reiterate, there is no point in even debating with an ignorant fucking Swedish reject as yourself!
Because you’re whole agenda is to support the Neo Liberals views.
A true Hungarian knows that their history was written by the occupiers, and if you walk the streets of Hungary you can see dozens of bookstores opening up downtown BP and online websites with a variety of Hungarian historical authors. Many of our scholars and writers are labeled fascist or racist if they attempt to question the past and are shunned in universities if they dare question the establishment’s version. So suck on the saveloy!
Despite the relentless provocations and attacks by the police, the Hungarian Guard has never broke the law, during its two years existence, unlike police and government criminals)
Here is the version of events that are not reported in mainstream media
http://www.jobbik.com/hungary-news/3133.html
@law: Do you really believe any sane person here would even look at a site with “jobbik” as part of it’s internet address ?
We could only laugh at this type of propaganda – or maybe cry because of the jobbik stupidity…
Wolfi, agreed but in reading it, the Jobbik fail to realize how stupid it actually makes the Jobbik themselves look. They are not wishing for peace. The status quo suits them just fine.
This must have been the “Great Non Event”
The article was vague, so I watched the youtube video posted by Bob.
Seems to me that JOBBIK imported a bunch of out-of-town thugs wearing pre-arranged black outfits in order to resemble the Magyar Garda, thus avoiding prosecution by not wearing the actual uniform. Very clever indeed.
What exactly was the purpose of the “Public Forum? ” There was a purpose wasn’t there? Oh, I know. It was to incite a riot with the Roma and getting free publicity for JOBBIK
“On the outskirts of the town, at least 100 local Roma gathered around a bonfire, shouting insults at those approaching them.”
There is no reference to the Roma doing anything illegal by gathering at a bonfire. Who were the people approaching them and for what purpose?
The JOBBIK plan must have gone awry as nothing happened except damage to a car. It appears the police had everything under control and whatever
JOBBIK hoped would happen, just fizzled out.
JOBBIK a “Radical Nationalist” party? – Yes, and it’s also an embarrassment to Hungary. Just ask any Liberal or Conservative from a Democratic Western nation.
Samuel Johnson recognized false patriotism in 1775 ; his well known statement describes JOBBIK today: “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”
One would assume that Jobbik has been in power since 1945 to be blamed for everything wrong with Hungary.
Are you saying, my Jewish sisters and brothers that Jobbik gave Hungary Kun, Rakosi, Gero, Bauer, Apro, Lendvai, Gyurcsany, Bajnai and the rest of these horrible Jewish, ahem “Hungarian” people?
Some Nazi types tell Bernie that is was the MSZP/SZDSZ coalition but they have to be lying because you are all blaming everything on Jobbik.
Well, my sister Olga, it seems that the Gypsies are unto us also:
http://www.jobbik.com/hungary-news/3133.html
12:40 Csaba Kállay, the national Gypsy Chief was given an opportunity to speak. He first emphasized the importance of peace between the ethnicities, and then proceeded to announce that he could mobilize 20,000 gypsies if he needed to. He reflected that, “a possible civil war is in some people’s interest.” The exact words of Kállay were that, “It is in the interest of those who strive for this country, and are seeking to colonize it.”
@ all
I was curious about JOBBIK’s solution to the “Roma Problem” I cut and pasted from their website and hope someone will translate for me:
Jobbik – Movement for a Better Hungary took in charge as the only party to face one of the underlying problems of Hungarian society, the unsolved situation of the ever growing gypsy population. It stated –what everyone knows but is silenced by “political correctness”– that phenomenon of “gypsy crime” is real. It is a unique form of delinquency, different from the crimes of the majority in nature and force. This recognition and documentation does not imply the collective condemnation of gypsies or racism, of course, since it blames their peculiar socio-cultural background, not genetic pre-determination. The way to solve this problem is paved by the raising of children to respect social norms, education, vocational training and establishment of jobs.
At the same time, however, it is also necessary to stiffen punitive sentences, to speed up criminal procedures and to end positive discrimination……”
Easy to understand how to stiffen criminal sentences – pass legislation . Perhaps one law for Hungarians and another for the Roma given the same crime
How does JOBBIK propose to raise children to respect social norms, education etc? Sounds good to me. What exactly is the plan to achieve this?
A head-start in education for Roma kids? Maybe at the “ovoda” level?
Strange that the only clear message is to incarcerate them.
Dear Olga,
The strategist in me says divide them; create a split. One would do this by employing a “carrot and stick approach”, i.e. incentives and punishments. One incentive would be educational assistance and job training, along with loans and grants. The punishment part of it should be self evident. Build a prison system big enought to deal with felony behaviour. Have child welfare agencies remoce children from unfit environments. Do these things for a generation or longer, and you will have helpd build some kind of middle class among them who feel a stake in society and assimilation.
I am not naive however, and the realist in me says that neither of these options are going to get fully implemented. Any govt programs designed to assist the Roma will provoke a lot of resentment. On the other hand, building and funding a prison system adequate to addressing crime will run afoul of liberals and politicians who will plead perpetual poverty, saying that the govt. doesn’t have the money. Well too bad. It’s a typical Hungarian mess, and I expect the problem to fester indefinitely, with no real progress in sight.
Given that India has taken such a paternal interest in the local Roma and their issues, I can suggest that they can start owning the problem, and that India provide them with loans and scholorship assistance, with study opportunities over there. Who knows, they may decide to stay; that too can be discussed with the Indians.
@ Farkas Laszlo
As always, your comments make a lot of sense – as you said ,implementing your solutions is no easy task. In fact,I have not read about any European country’s success in bringing about any positive changes in the Roma situation.
Terms like “crime prevention” “early intervention” “employment opportunities” “preventing social inclusions” etc etc are just overused phrases
I recognize there is no single or simple solution
to the problems – However, hate speeches by JOBBIK just encourage violence against the Roma and exacerbates the problems. Therefore the JOBBIK diatribe serves no purpose. Unless of course you count getting positive reinforcement from hate mongers and low lives like the Magyar Garda.
Same old tried and failed strategies. Take their children away. That has been done since Maria Theresa’s time…failure. Blame and shame them. That too has been going on for 500 years…failure.
The only thing that stands a chance is to educate both sides on tolerance and acceptance. It keeps coming back to this. The Roma problem does not belong to India but to Hungary. They are Hungarians and have been for over 500-600 years.
If you live in Canada for 500 years, is England responsible because the first immigrant originally came from England. I think not! The Roma have not been a part of India for over 800 plus years. They lived in Turkey for over 300 years before Hungary. Until the racist Hungarians (not all Hungarians) fix their attitudes, narcissism, rigid pedagogue (children raised in harsh, rigid and punitive homes are more likely to be racist) and their “white, might and right” thinking it will always come back to this. The enjoyment of baiting the Roma is an enjoyable game for those predisposed to cruelty. Truth is still the truth. Truth does not change even if you twist it.
FL,
“Build a prison system big enought to deal with felony behaviour.”
I see little evidence that any prison system “deals with” felony behaviour. The US has the biggest in the world – 715 prisoners per 100,000 people. It also has 90% more crimes per capita than Hungary.
Better yet, why don’t they take away the Jobbik’s children until they can play nicely and learn to get along. Damm it! They will learn to behave like normal human beings if we have to jail their children, parents and send them to special finishing schools. It is no longer acceptable to raise your self-esteem on the backs of the underpriviledged and downtrodden. It is no longer an acceptable practice to push the Roma down at every opportunity and then blame them if they will not put up with your abuse on the job, at the market and now, shoot/fire at them in their homes. If they can get a job offered to them, that is. Let us now heap more blame on them for the very predicament that is really out of their control. If the Jobbik’s and some other Hungarians think they are better , why do they not act so?
Very good, sister Plumcrazy!
You want to do the same thing to Jobbik’s children what we are doing to Palestinian children.
Do you want to crush their bones as we do with Palestinian children or we prefer our brother and Comrade Bauer’s method of pulling their fingernails?
No way! Children are the most precious of gifts. The family is the most important institution. You screw around with families and you hurt the next few generations down the road. The family is at the core of every human being.
Bernie, surely you recognize my little tongue in cheek humour here. I am the biggest fan of children and keeping families intact, if possible. I even like Jobbik and extremist children. They all are the innocent ones here.
Dear sophist,
With all due respect, I expected a response such as yours from someone. I’ve often heard such a viewpoint when talk turns to how crime can be abated. Incarceration may not improve a person, but it can serve to seperate an individual from society and get them off the streets. (And that would be my main concern). If we don’t do it suffiently, then criminals don’t fear the justice system, or don’t think they will get caught.
The question whether a serial offender can be rehabilitated through counseling and through alternatives to incarceration, is highly controversial. It has a spotty track record at best, as the risk of recidivism is very high.
Dear Plumcrazy,
What is or is not a suitable environment for children is a social service concern, when the parents or gaurdians are criminals, and getting their children involved in criome and keeping them out of school. Ultimately, it has to be about the children, and discouraging their parents from doing that which would cause society to step in. The idea of losing their children should make any mother think twice.
All too many times, liberal minded people don’t really want to do anything when faced with rampant crime, except to preach more “tolerance”. That alone isn’t going to bring it about. Many criminals laugh at such naivete. They are going to go on doing what they are allowed to get away with.
Efforts to help the Roma get more educated, through loans and grants, may also be resented by conservatives. They will not like govt policies aimed at just Roma people, and regard it as special treatment.
Like I said, I don’t think either the “carrot” or the “stick” will be aplied suffinetly, so both liberals and conservatives can rest easy. Things will just go on the way they are.
As to India, I’ve lately seen a lively interest in our internal affairs re the Roma problem from various Indian politicians and even religious leaders. This website has been reporting on it from time to time. It appears assumed by them that the Roma are their long lost racial brethren. I find that touching; now if only they would supply more than just rhetoric…. They are more than welcome to work with us towards a solution.
@Farkas László
Roma children are not treated well in school. I would not want to expose my children to any negative attitudes either.
Too many people paint them all with the same brush. It all comes down to: They deserve it because they are thieves, they are this, they are that, blah, blah, blah. The excuses are endless. Justifying bad behaviour because of bad behaviour does not make it right.
Petty criminality is not the same as sociopathic criminality. Yes, some Roma are raised in criminality and some may be sociopathic but so are some are some other ethnic races. Poverty is always a motivating factor in criminality. Poverty and marginization increases it. We know that early deprivation, harshness, child abuse, etc. increase the liklihood of making a sociopathic person. Having worked in an engineering office for years, I can tell you there is just as many sociopathic people wearing suits as there are in our Canadian jails.
Let’s get the criminals and also raise the esteem, livlihood and acceptance of Roma. I am sure there is a correlation between the two. Just as many sociopathic Jobbik as there are Roma.
Signed Canadian Roma (ok part Roma anyway)
Which Indian politician is so interested in this issue?
Dear Plumcrazy,
It’s a problem no matter how one views it, because various strategies and solutions will be objected to by different people on different grounds. Some will have policy reservations, others will point out that the system is unable (or unwilling) to commit much money to the problem. The nation has not shown much ability to solve and address major problems of any kind, be they economic or social.
I wouldn’t make light of the Indian connection; as time goes on and they get richer as a nation, they could be in a position to provide more than just rhetoric. The next time an Indian politician or religious figure expresses concern over our Roma problem, I wouldn’t hesitate to make nice with them and then proceed to ask for money towards a special education program or for private schools for Roma. There may be less resistance to the idea if the money doesn’t come from Hungarian taxpayers. I think the purpose of such programs should be to assist the Roma in long term integration within Hungary’s higher education system and job market.
I agree with you. If I had money I would send it too! I still believe that education is needed for the majority population in teaching basic human rights. “The Golden Rule” is a simple one and should be applicable to everyone and not just to those we like. Cheers László
FL,
“Incarceration may not improve a person, but it can serve to seperate an individual from society and get them off the streets. (And that would be my main concern). If we don’t do it suffiently, then criminals don’t fear the justice system, or don’t think they will get caught.”
Seeing that recidivism rates are ten times higher than the chance of going to prision in the first place (the UK has 1,45 million convicted felons, i.e. 5% of the population, whereas 50% of convicts are reconvicted. It seems that convicted felons fear the justice system much less than ordinary people, even though they have already been caught. How much prison do you think is sufficient for deterrence to start to work?
Do you want to incarcerate more criminals? No more suspended or non-custodial sentences?
Do you want prison sentences to last longer? How long do you think is appropriate for stealing a chicken?
Mayber prison should simply be made tougher; poorer food, harder labour, less protection for prisoners from the guards and fellow inmates. Once the mortality in prison increases significantly, the ‘deterrence’ factor might come into play?
But surely, if you want to ‘get them off the street’, a much cheaper and much more effective method is to reintroduce the death penalty for a wider range of crimes – all felonies perhaps?
Magyar Garda and Jobbik are the “far right”? The gypsies have nothing to worry about. A penchant for uniforms, and nazi, 30s, Munich beer-hall rhetoric is their only device.
Hungarians sell their houses and chose to live/work abroad. This paves the way for the mass migration of Roma to move in and make themselves feel quite at home. Gypsies are not Hungarians. They may live here and speak the language but they are, in fact, a law and sub-culture unto themselves.
I have met reasonable people from a gypsy background. The majority, though, I find quite nauseating. A large majority of Hungarians think and feel the same way. This is the truth.
Hello Sophist,
The whole gamut of questions that you raise are of a very serious nature. Implementing most any of those suggestions would require political will, public support and funding.
I’m trying to look at this as a problem solver, rather than as an extremist or partisan. Problem solving (as it pertains to public policy at least) is not a strong suit with us.
Take just the issue of incarceration. Myself, I tend to favor a “three strikes and your out”, system of felony conviction. That’s one way to address the recidivism issue, at least in worst case criminals. How many bank robberies or rapes are we going to allow an individual? The problem with inprisoning people for life is that it is expensive. The cost of maintaining a prison system whose size is commensurate with the crime problem would likely be more than our govt. could spring for. That then leads to the shortcomings of our system of public finance, which fetures problems with tax collection and corruption. So you see, one set of ills is actually linked to another, seemingly unrelated set. Welcome to Hungary!
Enthusiasm for the death penalty (or lack thereof) I’ve noticed over the years to be culturally based from one country to the next. In the US, it is a very popular concept, especially in certain states like Texas. History shows that only dictatorships apply it on a very large scale; I think Hungarians remember those all to well and are probably not so crazy about the idea.
Gypsies are not Hungarians. They may live here and speak the language but they are, in fact, a law and sub-culture unto themselves.
AranyJános at November 23, 2009 9:39 PM
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Is this not how a Slovak Nationalist would describe the Hungarian minority?
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Jobbik does not want to change this with “a law and sub-culture unto themselves”.
Jobbik want to support the Roma Chieftain-system, so the Roma can do their business on their own and be blamed for not integrating.
Dear Plumcrazy,
I’ve been a life-long Indophile, have had many contacts over there and feel that they are an up and coming powerhouse. There is a LOT of wealth over there and a great many rich people. I would like to see certain Roma spokespeople from Hungary go there and meet with various religious and secular charities and organizations. Setting up of training programs, special education programs (to help those with deficiencies), scholarships, exchange student programs, funding of private schools, vocational training for adults, lonas for education and loans for business development, should all be topics of serious discussion.
If and when many Roma visit India, they will find out that they stand out less, as many are very Indian in appearance. They can gain a lot by following up on some of my suggestions. As India is developing a huge and burgeoning middle class, so too will the Roma have to develop one as well over time.
I expect great things from India in the future. Given another generation of 9% GDP growth per annum, and they will be in a position to make a big difference.
I am not sure about how much they actually can connect to India now-a-days but they would not stick out like a sore thumb is right. They are still Hungarians whether Hungarians wish to regard them as such or not. It is a fact. I read about a Humgarian Roma woman who has 20 family members in her village with university degrees. (I am not lying!) They still face racism and bigotry even though they are educated and employed. It will not matter unless she can change her colouring the stigma remains the same…shame. I do not know much about India (even though my daughter’s boyfriend is Indian). I am learning a lot about Roma. I grew up with Canadian ideals and had no idea that the Roma were hated. I had no idea there were other people like my family. My dad was proud and my mom played it down so it never became an issue until my dad died. I mentioned it everywhere trying to learn. It was one Roma woman who was terrified to tell me she was Roma (Czech), 3 Hungarians who yelled in my face and the rude owner of a Czech restarant in Calgary that made me more curious and started me on this trek. I have spoken with many Roma now. None steal and they all work. The only ones were some Romanians who came through Calgary stealing and they were caught and sent back. I did not meet them. Good,no reason to steal here. No one is hungry here in Calgary! All the rest are so hard working so given the opportunity I know they can accomplish much.
Hello again plumcrazy,
Where you have so many self-cancelling contradictions, then my natural response is to go and “think out of the box”. As long as Indians care about what is going on with the Roma in Hungary, my point is to turn that around and involve them more. I would suggest to any India bound Roma, or non Roma from Hungary, to smoothe their experience over there by learning English. English is widely spoken in India.
It’s not just the Hungarian Roma that should look eastward!India is a country that Hungarian businessmen and youth should become more familiar with now and in the future. Like China, they have a lot to offer in terms of business deals, joint ventures, consulting work and import export.
You mentioning that a uni degree doesn’t always help break down the prejudice, makes me think that Roma should consider trades that allow you to operate as an independent. Indians are awful good at this sort of thing (they own most of the 7-11′s throughout the world), and could be a good role model and inspiration.
Yes, and a lot of businesses in Africa are run by Indian and Muslim owners. I was not sure what your pre-previous comment was about, so yes, I did jump to my own Indian conclusions. Some north Americans have / are taking up Indian religions too. Would the average Hungarian buy from a Roma entrepenuer? or should they stick to selling goods and services to their own. Heck, they have to buy goods from someone anyway. This is really going to sound ignorant (but I do not claim to be worldly) but do they have 7-Elevens in Hungary? I will not check until tomorrow but I will await your reply.
Dear Farkas laszlo
This situation you are in currently reminds me of the Buddha when he drew near to his enlightenment experience, he was assailed by the forces of temptation (Mara). He remained steadfast, however, and reached down to call upon the Earth to witness his vow to be unmoved by any temptation.
To me it appears you are surrounded by these beings of temptation. Be strong my friend.
The Communist period in Eastern Europe very much stopped the nomadic culture of the Roma.
The Roma has been used for centuries as cheap unskilled seasonal labour on the agriculture production.
With the System Change in 1990 this production either stopped working or got mechanised and therefore did not use unskilled seasonal labour any more.
In the beginning of the 90s also the ‘Gypsie Orchestra’ that every restaurant seemed to have, disappeared. I would expect that took away maybe the income for 10.000 Roma, who probably supported up to 100.000 Roma.
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Here is the difference:
* The change of the agriculture production and other circumstances has made it very hard, if not impossible, for very small production units (= farms), like Ricsi’s pig farm, to make a living.
Jobbik has a plan for this, how to support Ricsi and his fellow pig-farmers to live on their land.
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* For the Roma, who have had the same rough result from the changes that came with 1990, there is no sympathy, no plan, just blame them.
They are the poorest of the poor in Hungary.
They do not own any land, they normally ‘squat’ (just live where ever no one yet has thrown them out from).
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Maybe Ricsi and his fellow pig-farmers need some good advice from India also, instead of screaming that they should have (more) money from the EU?
Viking, you spelled that word incorrectly it’s ‘uck’ not ‘arm’. I hope you dont make the same mistake again.
Dear Plumcrazy,
I appreciate your response, as it raises excellent questions.
There are many kinds of wealth that can be drawn from engaging with India. If some Hungarian derives good business deals from there, that is excellent. If some Roma child or teen goes there and becomes inspired by the sight of people of his own ancestry, excelling in school and kicking ass and pulling themselves up, that is priceless. You can’t put a monetary price tag on that! If we can pursuade Indians to fund some the schooling and development of our Roma population, that too would be of incalculable value.
I firmly believe in entrepeneurship; it has worked for any ethnic group that has taken it seriously. Finding out just what the right “value added” occupations and businesses for Roma would be, is something they would have to go through and work out over time. My own humble suggestion would be to find a niche where your services are very much in need, despite the fact that people may not like your ethnicity. Plumbers, electricians, yard maintenance, construction contractors, restaurant owners, chefs are just a few things that come to mind. For those that can hack the educational requirements, there is nothing like being a doctor!
The 7-11 was an example. Despite the chain originating in Japan, many of their stores are owned by a very entrepeneurail group of Indians from the Gujarat. Buying franchises can be very lucrative. They do have one in Budapest, on Andrássy út.
Dear Law,
This is one of the nicest things that anyone has ever addressed to me on this website!
Law’s metaphor may not be entirely clear to all, but to me it is. Buddha expending his life and energy in search of enlightment, can be taken as a metaphor for finding a “breakthrough” that takes you to the next level. It boils down to dissatisfaction with the status quo and finding a new undersdtanding. We may not be looking for enlightment of the sort Buddha was searching for, but we are looking for a way out of the mess we are in, and it is easy to give way to temptations like despair and pessimism.
Buddha tried everything imaginable in his search, and reached a point of despair. He too experienced distractions and temptations. If we apply this to secular politics and economics, then you can say that our people have “tried” everything from feudalism, fascism, sovietism, and neo liberal economics. We are still in the dark and many of us are losing hope. Many doubt whether a better future is possible.
My dear Law, I will not give in to temptation. I know exactly why I am here, doing what I do, and saying what I say. I have been preparing myself for many years! Nor will I abandon my commitment to our upliftment. I will do this by continuing to suggest constructive ideas. I am not here to fight with others and prove them wrong and engage in flame wars. Others should be free to believe what they want; time and history will be the ultimate judge.
@Farkas László
Thanks. I am not here to fight either. Most of the conversations are rather silly, combative and not very intelligent. I wish to only put forth the view that it is not acceptable to paint everyone with the same brush and, perhaps, to have some alternate way of thinking put forth. I am so lucky that with the recession I am employed at an excellent job, not that I enjoy it, but rather that it pays the bills nicely. I can hide my ethnicity due to the fact my mom was very blonde (not Roma) but I choose not to. I, too, am blonde. Being Roma was important to my father. Although he is dead, he had no idea what was going on in Europe even when he was alive. Most people in Canada see them as the care-free happy people (myth) running around playing music.
@Viking
Thank you! Your comments are very enlightening.
@Law
“This situation you are in currently reminds me of the Buddha when he drew near to his enlightenment experience, he was assailed by the forces of temptation (Mara). He remained steadfast, however, and reached down to call upon the Earth to witness his vow to be unmoved by any temptation.
To me it appears you are surrounded by these beings of temptation. Be strong my friend.”
Interesting not sure what the temptations are. What are you afraid of?
Dear Farkas Laszlo
Enjoy
Great Forties Jazz Singer Helen Forrest and the big bands were awsome
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-vo-w-D4W4
Dear Law,
How very very nice! Helen Forest also sang with the Artie Shaw band, another fine big band orchestra headed by a carinet player! In terms of musical style, it was a great era!
Laci
Sophist: sorry for being a couple of days behind on this topic, but I wanted to respond to your post with the questions. Forgive the shameless self-promotion, but on my website, I posted an essay entitled ‘Individuals and Institutions: An alternative perspective on Crime Prevention’, which relates to the ideas present here.
I suspect you and I are probably on the same page with this, but in short…
Tougher sentences don’t deter crime. Research shows that in planning and commmitting a crime, people are thinking more about the potential benefits of getting away with it, rather than the consequences of getting caught. Basically, if people want to commit a crime, they will, regardless of the penalty. Prison is not an effective punishment. Usually it just breeds resentment among prisoners and acts as an effective pool for criminal knowledge and resources. I am very wary of any policy that aims to ‘clean up the streets’ by locking away undesirables. It becomes very hard to draw the line between behaviour that is acceptable and unacceptable. Here we see people saying many objectionable things in the name of free speech, which I do respect, however, I feel it is important to realise that the laws that protect our freedoms also protect the freedom of others.This is an imperfect system and results in some things being said and done that shouldn’t be said or done.Nevertheless, the law must remain universal.Being reactionary just fuels the hatred and increases radicalism.
In the Egerbakta Elementary School, six gypsy youngsters grabbed a ten year old girl, undressed her and raped her with a broomstick.
http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/11/gypsy-youngsters-raped-10-year-old-girl.html
@Law:
If you believe anything on this jobbik site “Hungarianambience” then you probably believe also in fairies and the easter bunny…
Every sane person looking at a few postings there realizes immediately that this is pure propaganda, lies and in one word : 100% bullshit!
Please use some reliable sources for information or you’ll be the laughing stock here like our late friend “from Panama”, the guy with the many names…
@WOLFI
GO FUCK YOURSELF! YOU IGNORANT BASTARD!!!!
THIS IS FACT WHICH I HAVE POSTED HERE NOT YOUR IGNORANT ROT!! Your Disgusting lies are in the mainstream media.
Strange one, that wolfie, he could do penance for his SS father by telling his German brothers and sisters that they were a nasty, murderous bunch, almost as nasty Stalin’s Jewish Communists. Instead, he chooses be the lead singer in the chorus of anti-Hungarian Jewish hate mongers against the Hungarians who helped Jews hiding from wolfie’s SS daddy.
They make strange bedfellows, the German Nazis and Jewish Communists.
If we look what the reader’s of Law’s favourite site nowadays thinks, we can check the poll for:
“What do you think about the swine flu vaccination program”.
The absolute majority of the reader answering the poll think it is:
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It’s a sinister project, part of the population reduction agenda
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As HirTV says: “Without commentary”
@Law and Bernie:
The louder you shout and the crazier you get, foaming at the mouth, the more it shows that you are wrong, you stupid fools!
BTW: What is your connection to Hungary, you surely don’t live here (as I do with my wife, at least half the year), you don’t pay taxes, you know only what your jobbik leaders tell you to believe or what you learnt from some madmen on the internet…
That you call “mainstream media” liars shows very clearly what type of “information” you take for granted. You are a psychotic bunch…
And NO, we will not leave Hungary because of your threats, we know that most Hungarians think and feel differently from you, so we are not afraid!
To everyone else: As we say in Germany: Don’t even ignore those fools, unless you are looking for examples of psychotic fools that you can have fun with…
@Wolfi
You sick Prick!! So instead of sticking to the Facts that a 10 year old girl was raped and videoed by GYPSY teenagers do not rattle you as a person? Again typical Neo Liberal lies and Character assassination and gutless behavior. If this would have occurred with my daughter I would seek revenge and it wouldn’t be jail for these retarded sick bastards who have been breed and influenced by your Neo Liberal agenda. And don’t assume I don’t live here because in FACT I do!
Law,
What has the rape to do with if the perpetrators were Roma or not?
Is it worse to be raped by a Roma, than a non-Roma?
No Roma-women are never raped by non-Roma?
Is rape a typical crime only/mostly committed by Roma in Hungary?
Your linked article was full of “we assume”-things and not so many facts. Makes you wonder how much of the story is hard facts and how much is wishful thinking and part of the political agenda from you guys.
The point is mainstream media and corrupt government officials don’t report Gypsy crimes, covering up news stories instead of reporting the facts, if this would have been Hungarian patriots or non Roma then there would have been front page articles all over the press, you Ignorant Bastard Viking!
@Viking: Trying to reason with that fool Law is not much use.
Of course a rape is really bad, a child being raped is even worse – but where is the proof ?
Whatever “H..ambience” reports is so distorted, that I don’t believe a word of it if there is no other report from a reliable source.
We had similar events in Germany being manipulated by the rightwingers – sometimes it turned out that the oppsite was true.
I personally remember something that really happened in a small village in the backlands of the Balaton, where an acquaintance of mine (I can’t call him afriend…) bought a house years ago.
Some German guys visited him and they went together to the local kocsma for a few glasses of wine. One of them took a local girl (not 16 years old) with him and tried to have sex with her – luckily he was so drunk, he couldn’t overpower her and she could flee the house. The others also were drunk and didn’t realize what was happening.
The whole party returned quickly to Germany.
The local people told that guy it would be better for him not to return to this village…
So bad things can happen.
wolfie should but does not know shame for the little worm son of German SS to lecture Hungarians.
Nothing you sons and daughters of German Nazis and Jewish Communists can say to change the horrible fact that you German Nazis and Jewish Communists are responsible for the horrible deaths of over 100 million people.
Do not look at the Hungarians to find the murderers but look at your parents and grandparents instead.
Jobbik and the Hungarian Guard did not harm anyone but the Jewish Communist rulers of Hungary, their sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters murdered and tortured hundreds of thousands.
The point is mainstream media and corrupt government officials don’t report Gypsy crimes, covering up news stories instead of reporting the facts
Law at November 26, 2009 12:37 PM
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So rape is now a ‘Gypsy crime’?
Is that one of the facts you are missing?
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********
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@Viking: Trying to reason with that fool Law is not much use.
wolfi at November 26, 2009 1:12 PM
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True, but it makes a break in my 24/7 work and any distraction can be good sometimes.
So in a sense Law helps me to earn more money.
I think he will feel pleased with the fact of helping a fellow ‘Hungarian’.
…another piece of trivia.
when it comes to rape and sexual assault in general, it is FAR more likely that the offender will be someone that the victim knows reasonably well. Often it is a family member, partner, or close acquaintance. Sexual assualt is grossly under-reported and so the cases that find their way to the media are ones that are generally discovered/happen in the public domain. (In fact, estimates of actual figures are DOUBLE what is reported) Another way of looking at this is that while it is possible that sexual assault may happen more often in the Gypsy community, it is more likely to be between others in the same group. Sexual assault still happens though in the ethnically Hungarian population though, so there is no point trying to claim that it is predominantly a ‘Gypsy problem’…and again, sexual assaults with Hungarian victims are far more likely to involve Hungarian perpetrators. Sexual assualt is a highly emotive issue, but the facts support the view that it is not appropriate to use it in what is essentially a political debate.
@ Cinead
I don’t know what “Hungarian ambiance” is all about but they have certainly sank to a new low.
Using the story of an alleged child rape to advance their cause for hating the Roma is beyond reprehensible. Using words like “retards” explains the credibility of the publication as well as the credibility of the whole story (Nice touch using a a 4-5 year old child’s picture for the illustration. Was a 10 year old not young enough for shock value?)
According to the article, the child was slightly injured – The word “slight” and the description of the crime do not match. In fact “rape” and “slight” is an oxymoron.
The Hungarian Ambiance logo with the horses and the warriors picture seems to have been taken hundreds of years ago. Are they no longer satisfied with going back to 1919 Mussolini’s Blackshirts attire?
BTW, since you are the person with the PhD is Psych, who do people like Law come completely unhinged when someone disagrees with their points of view? I hope he take HBP pills.
Hi Cináed
So we just turn the other cheek then?
Reporting of crimes is part of highlighting to the community of the criminal activity, and where the population should invest there tax dollars, I’m a taxpayer and vote for politicians who represent the people not the corrupt criminals, the point here is that the Neo Liberals are protecting criminals! Fact!
Why is it that Gypsy Crime not reported and Hungarians are more often the victims? Labeled as the Racists! Fascist! Xenophobic! Why? And when there is a crime by gypsies who are abusing the laws then we just have double standards? It’s like pissing in the wind for Hungarians! And once you have lived here you do see that Hungarians are the victims of the injustice Neo liberal system! This is Fact! And if you have lived in regional areas of Hungary you would quickly change your naïve Neo Liberal views, unless you are part and parcel of the corruption.
Reporting of crimes is part of highlighting to the community of the criminal activity, and where the population should invest there tax dollars
Law at November 26, 2009 4:36 PM
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OK, now we are talking – so where should we invest out tax “dollars”?
I assume you mean Forint, but we cannot get it correct all the time.
What measures could my tax-forints have protected this and other girls/women in Hungary from rape?
@Viking
You wont have to worry, if I had it my way you would be working on a prison farm, and if you don’t produce any product you starve, now that way Good honest citizens taxes wouldn’t be wasted.
if I had it my way you would be working on a prison farm
Law at November 26, 2009 6:42 PM
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And my crime would be…?
Ah, I get it – I wear glasses. That must be enough to work in Ricsi’s pig-farm, sorry I mean of course ‘prison farm’.
That is the way Jobbik will solve the economy in the future, just push the people who wear glasses out in the country-side.
Pol “The Law” Pot.
@Viking: Now the “real” Mr. Law is coming out of the closet – prison farm or maybe Gulag or concentration camp for people wo are in their way…
You just have to needle them enough and then they show their filthy faces – let’s go on unmasking these “harmless black wearing citizens”…
BTW: Since I have nothing to do with the German Nazis, I don’t mind their rhetoric, especially Bernie always gives me a laugh – although in other times with his constant talking about pulling finger nails, well he would have been the perfect little sadistic Gulag/KZ/ whatever guard.
It doesn’t really matter for these guys which ideology they represent, as long as they can follow their ideas about torturing others…
True Wolfie,
Bernie has actually lost the real
‘I am the Communist Jew who learned the Nazis everything’
into just another Jobbik stooge.
Maybe we should call them Hobbiks (Hobbit-Jobbik) or Jobos (Jobbik-os/Hobos)?
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With Law/HP/etc, I had always (a year or so?) had the feeling he is a real Pol-Potter.
I can really see him as the ‘CEO’ of Ricsi’s Correction Pig Farm.
What do you call a Gypsies-only abortion clinic???
Crimestoppers…
@Law
http://tv.sme.sk/v/8917/policajti-si-tocili-mucenie-na-telefon.html
What is your take on this? Sorry now playing upmanship.
Just curious, Viking, are you a commie homo in love with Ricsi?
Why do you keep calling me Ricsi?
Who is Ricsi?
What are you babbling about a Pig Farm?
Are you into pigs also?
Bernie is not into your sick things. Try wolfie, the hitler boy…
Try to see your future as a pig in Ricsi’s Pig Correctional Farm.
Deep inside, maybe one of your other personalities?, you know who Rici is.
Hi Law, in response to your post.
“So we just turn the other cheek then?”
…no, we prosecute all offenders as equal before the law regardless of socio-economic or ethnic identity.
“Reporting of crimes is part of highlighting to the community of the criminal activity, and where the population should invest their tax dollars.”
…to some degree, yes, however, we must not forget that a media outlet’s first priority is to sell units, and so therefore choices are made to publish stories that are most likely to garner interest.Also, media outlets do to some extent reflect the social/political leanings of their owners and target demographic.
“…the point here is that the Neo-Liberals are protecting criminals!Fact!
…I agree that sometimes the law is not equally applied as it should be, and that the design of law often reflects the interests of those with access to power and agency.This is why the population needs to be far more politically active throughout the election cycle, voter apathy in Hungary also allows corruption to increase through not making politicians accountable.To me, the term ‘Neo-Liberal’ means almost nothing other than a rhetorical, negative categorisation of those with less than conservative values.Its utility and non-specificity is useful as it can be applied to invalidate anyone who holds an alternative view. (cont)
In this sense, although there may be a rather tenuous link between liberalism and the protection of universal rights including the rights of would-be criminals, to say that Neo-Liberals are protecting criminals is again rhetorical in that it uses a ‘grain of truth’ as absolute truth.It is not, therefore, universally reliable or provable and therefore, not a fact.
“Why is it that Gypsy Crime not reported and Hungarians are more often the victims?”
This is not actually correct, as I referred to in my post from yesterday, that most often, the victims of crime are relatives, acquaintances and those in close proximity to offenders.A lot of Gypsy crime against other Gypsies is not reported, basically because no-one who engages media outlets really cares.As a secondary point to this, under the law, anyone with a Hungarian passport is a Hungarian, regardless of ethnicity, social class or point of origin.
“Labeled as the Racists! Fascist! Xenophobic! Why? And when there is a crime by gypsies who are abusing the laws then we just have double standards?”
Well, the thing is, when someone says ‘That group should be excluded from society because of their race’, or ‘that group is sub-human’ or ‘The state should persecute that group’, it is not unlikely that they will be described as racist, xenophobic or fascist.Incidentally, I don’t think that most Hungarians fit into this category, although I do know that many have sometimes unconscious racist tendencies. (cont)
…this is true of every country I’ve been to though, and so is certainly not an inherently Hungarian failing.Hungarians are people, and people everywhere are, well…just people.That Hungarians feel the way they do is unsurprising, but after centuries of war and slaughter across Europe, surely there must be another way.
As to double standards…the police I knew spent a lot of time talking about the fear of having to go into Gypsy areas to investigate crime.It is an occupational hazard that drives many of them to alcohol and suicide.These are the same cops that Hungarians also hate, sometimes unfairly, even though they are doing an awful job for little money, no thanks, with inadequate training and constantly changing administrative priorities.I’d never want to be a cop.Having said that, the police spend a huge amount of their time policing ‘Gypsy crime’.
“And once you have lived here you do see that Hungarians are the victims of the injustice of the Neo-Liberal system! This is Fact!”
See above, re: neo-liberal. I think Hungarians have been victims of lots of things, and on top of this, liberalism has given us all the ‘freedom to be poor’.Hungary is in very poor shape, no question, but it is far more complex than to lay it all at the feet of the faceless ‘neo-liberal system’.
(cont)
“And if you have lived in regional areas of Hungary you would quickly change your naive Neo Liberal views, unless you are part of the corruption.”
We have had some constructive conversation before, so I won’t over-react to that statement.To correct you though, my earlier statements were based on statistical reality of crime among groups.It had no specific political content.I am not corrupt, and actually nearly got myself into big trouble because I refused to engage in ‘compulsory’ corruption.Please don’t suggest things like that, it’s just not nice and doesn’t reflect the reality of my experience.As to having ‘Neo-Liberal’ views…well, I do believe that the law has to be universally applied and that we should strive as humans to find a better way to live. I am not naive about politics, nor do I get misty-eyed about how wonderful democracy is. I don’t believe perfection is ever possible, but I don’t think we should stop trying to get closer to it.Politically speaking, I believe in education as being one of the best ways to improve outcomes for populations, I believe that better health care is necessary.Apart from that, I think that the essence of democracy is the swinging vote, meaning that sometimes we need fiscal conservatism and sometimes we need increased spending on social development…sometimes we need a right-leaning govt, sometimes a left.Although reactionism and extremism might feel satisfying, in the end, everyone gets hurt.”In war, there are no winners.”
olga: I agree that using a story like this is a pretty cynical thing.Using a child’s face for shock value is effective, though hardly what I would call honourable.
I do agree too that in sexual assault there is hardly such a thing as ‘slightly’ injured…Though the law must recgonise degrees of offence to avoid losing a sense of perspective.As distasteful as that statement may be, it is a ‘necessary evil’.
When I get a chance, hopefully in the next few days, I’ll write a bit about an article I was reading on the post 1848 Revolution period and what it meant for the development of Hungarian mythology.
btw, I don’t have the PhD yet…but I am on my way, also, although I do include a lot of psychological aspects, my focus is the sociology of mental health. I just wouldn’t want to misrepresent myself…
I could speculate a lot about the motives and behaviours of those with more extreme posting behaviour, but it would be only speculation because there simply isn’t enough here to accurately analyse a person completely.Having said this, for some, national identity and patriotism become central features of person’s core identity.Therefore, any alternative perspective challenges more than just a political view but goes to the core of their ‘self’…in this case, such reactions are not uncommon, especially if a person is somewhat insecure (don’t read that as a put down) about themselves or their social position.
I can’t speak for Law specifically though, as I said, this is speculation
What do you call a Hungarians-only abortion clinic?
Trianon II
Final Solution to the Hungarian Problem.
What do you call a wolfie’s daddy?
Final Solution to the Jewish Problem.
Hi Cináed
Education for the gypsies has been available for
centuries in Hungary, but they don’t want to
assimilate and use these resources, they choice the
easy road of living in denial of the reality that
people have to contribute to society and community
and not steal, rape and live by no virtues just
because it’s gypsy culture.
The standard of education by the neo liberals are
decaying the virtues of man, and many historical
events are not taught correctly and any scholar
attempting to debate the mainstream version is
shunned. The whole liberalism has been hijacked by criminals, and this is what Jobbik are highlighting.
What talks like a fascist, looks like a fascist, stinks like a fascist ?
Answer: Now that the thin polish of civilization is wearing off, it’s name is Jobbik, Bernie, Bob , beju, Law and so on – the Hydra has many heads…
@Wolfi
Hydra is being reflective of this inner demon within
you.
The whole liberalism has been hijacked by criminals, and this is what Jobbik are highlighting.
Law at November 28, 2009 10:23 AM
—
OK, so it means ‘liberalism’ was good at some point in time.
When did it go bad?
Who are the ‘criminals’ who ‘hijacked’ it?
“What talks like a fascist, looks like a fascist, stinks like a fascist ?”
wolfie, who else?
this list is a million laughs – we got wolfie the son of a german ss, calling hungarians nazis and such – we got jewish communists pretending to be liberals (that is really funny) – between the german nazis and jewish communist they can claim the lives of well over 100 million innocent and helpless peole they murdered
these clowns all try to lay the blame on the arrowcross – what a bunch of clowns, the arrowcross was in power for a couple of months but the german nazis and jewish communists were murdering people for decades
stop fooling around because all you do is make fools of yourselves
we got jewish communists pretending to be liberals (that is really funny)
wolfie the joker at November 28, 2009 2:41 PM
–
Could you name these ones?
@ all non-JOBBIK supporters
Extremist political groups flourish when there is a downturn of the economy and people feel alienated by the mainstream. They need scapegoats for their circumstances. Blah, blah, blah, same old, same old.
I understand the reasons for the resurgence of the Neo-Nazi groups in Europe and I understand their agendas and the nostalgia for the Hitler era. I even understand the need for dressing up in ridiculous outfits. After looking at the Hungarian Ambiance website, I assume it’s a matter of time before the MG starts parading around with horses and Hussar uniforms.
What I don’t understand is Hungary’s ultra right-wing obsession with “Communism”
Who exactly are the perceived present day “Communists” in Hungary? – are they people who advance Liberal ideas? Is Obama a Communist because he is pushing for universal health care?
Is Communism the new word for the American Democratic Party’s and the Canadian Liberal party’s agendas? If not, who are these present day Communists in Hungary and what political agenda are they advancing?
@…thejoker:
You know that my father was in the SS, then you know more than the French officers who interrogated him and found him not guilty.
well, much less is known about your sordid past and present – and probably nobody wants to know what hole you crawled from…
May you rot in well, not hell because I don’t believe in hell, but in your own feces.
The more crap you and the BalaBallaBrothers write, the easier it is for others on this site to realize your absolute stupidity. If I were a jobbik leader, i’d forbid your posting here, because you even give the jobbik a bad name…
PS: Probably i’m lucky that my lunch (roasted goose liver and some pretty good extras in a nice restaurant together with some Soproni Kekfrankos) are well digested or else I would have thrown up at your pathological sickness…
BTW: When I first mentioned my father being in the German army I pretty well knew that that would oroduce some strange or rather foreseeable action with the resident fascjsts here…
It’s almost funny, the way you sickos are predictable. Just to do some more psychological experiments for Cinaed I might tell you more about my family..
@ Cindead
If your focus is on the sociology of mental health, his website should give you a plethora of useful information.
Personally, I can never get angry about any postings that have to do with extreme right wing views – the more extreme the better. I believe the posters are here to alienate all moderates from the JOBBIK party. Since the party is trying to get support from the mainstream, these people are just sabotaging the JOBBIK agenda. Sounds good to me.
Using a fake story about child sexual abuse just to incite hatred against the Roma? Just how low can you go? Maybe there is another chapter for your research paper
BTW, I lost the link for your website. Please post it again.
I don’t like you hitler boy wolfie
@BloodBathBernie:
“Das beruht auf Gegenseitigkeit”, translated:
Thanks for the compliments – I can’t say I like you …
PS: I wonder – yesterday I was your best Stalinist jewish commie friend, today you can’t stand me – why your sudden change of heart, my poor little circumcised prick ?
Maybe I should give you some of my Viagra, so you can “stand up like a man” again ?
“why your sudden change of heart, my poor little circumcised prick ?”
Always picked you for a closet Nazi, wolfi but never dreamed that you would come out so soon
You can fool these Jewish Communists looking for a friend, any friend, even the German son of a Nazi friend but not Bernie
Law: The state of the Hungarian education system cannot be simply blamed on a neo-liberal agenda.Again please refer to my earlier comments about the term neo-liberal.It’s more like so much else in Hungary that has been left to stagnate and decay without any real curriculum or resource development, or spending.The debate of how and what is taught in classrooms is also infinitely complex than a question of idealisim.One of many problems is that teaching is really an uninviting career path in that pay is low and responsibility is high.There just isn’t enough to attract good, new teachers who either A) weren’t trained under the communist system and B) who are aren’t so completely sick of teaching that they’d rather have their teeth pulled out.(I know some good Hungarian dentists).I also think that the question of how to teach history is very complex, since you only have to look as far as this forum to see that even among people with similar ideals, there are quite fundamentally different perceptions of ‘actual’ events.I know that trying to find scholars who will debate things is hard, but this is a lack of being progressive and just generally being academically lazy.
(cont)
(cont) …to say that neo-liberal values are responsible for decaying values or for not challenging ‘mainstream’ views is incorrect, because if anything, a liberal approach to education allows for alternate perceptions of history to be presented.Given Europe’s history of war and genocide, it is no surprise that there is so much conflict about varying views of history, which means that great care must be taken in presenting information to young people.Besides, while you are entitled to your view, others are entitled to theirs…as I said before, the laws that protect our rights must also protect similar rights of others.
As the Gypsies.Well, you can’t expect a situation that has developed over such a long period be resolved so quickly.This is just as true of issues within the Magyar community.I also think it’s worth remembering that by and large, the Gypsies had their original culture taken from them by being forced to settle in one place and take up a lifestyle that was unnatural to them.It’s really not all that dissimilar to what Magyars feel with their loss of cultural identity because of years of oppression and hegemonic influence.The Gypsies are not your enemies…moreover, I think looking for enemies or someone to blame is only more destructive to the country as a whole.
Hi Olga,
When I first saw your post, I didn’t realise it was from you and just saw “Cindead”.I thought, ‘oh no, what’s this? some kind of not-so-veiled death threat?’ It was a relief to see your name at the bottom…
Anyway, yes, I agree that the more extreme people get, the less credible they become, and the more they alienate themselves from the rest of the community.It doesn’t really surprise me that many Hungarians have right-leaning sympathies and ethnic tension in Europe is hardly unusual.I don’t think that the majority (certainly not the majority I know) really believe that the solution to these problems are as extreme as some of the things being said here.I actually think that a lot of the extremists get ‘drunk’ on their own rhetoric.I am often struck by the smiles and expressions of joy on the faces of protestors as they chant sometimes very scary slogans.I think that activism is fulfilling in its own way, but that many have unrealistic expectations of what would actually happen if their views were taken up.Time and again, history shows that when society is divided into ‘us’ and ‘them’, the ‘us’ group becomes progressively smaller and harder to stay in.This is the danger of defining oneself by difference…that is something worth writing a paper about. You should be able to access my website by clicking on my name after the post.Things are quiet there at the moment as I have been busy planning my next big move, but I hope to get back to it soon.
Eight years of socialist-liberal policy of
sponsoring gypsy crime is coming to fruition in
every level of society.
Yesterday evening, in the village of Tiszakürt-
Bogaras gypsy criminals almost lynched two police
officers. Thanks to a quick thinking citizen, a
potential tragedy managed to be averted.
“It was evening and a car crashed into the fence,”
said the eye witness. “The white car, then backed
up and left the scene. We called police, because
we suspected that the driver was drunk. Drunk
driving is not uncommon in the village. Two young
cops came and started collecting information. Soon
after, a white car approached with a driver and
two of his sons sitting in the back. It was
possible that they crashed into the car. The cops
flagged them off and asked for the drivers
licence.
The driver got out of the car and started pushing
the police officer. Then, the two sons got out and
jumped on the other police officer. Within
minutes, a ground fight erupted; one of the sons
went into the car for a large crowbar and attacked
the police officer. It seemed that the attackers
wanting to lynch the officers; I ran into my house
for my handgun and shot three times into the air.
The attackers got scared and jumped into their car
and left the scene. The cops, too, ran into the
police car trying to stop the attackers but they
managed to escape.”
(szoljon.hu – hungarianambiance.com)
Law: “Eight years of socialist-liberal policy of
sponsoring gypsy crime is coming to fruition in
every level of society.”
Very true but it will come to an end soon…
The official Police Report differs a bit from Law’s description and can be found here:
-
http://www.police.hu/friss/szo_100121_01.html
-
A Police Sergeant was seriously injured and the 3 attackers 29, 18 and 17 years old men were arrested inside half an hour.
The two who jumped out of the car later did that when the 2 Police Officers were busy wrestling with the driver.
Hungarian Police Officers are armed and in a situation like this, it is a good question how they were trained to react, when both Officers concentrated on the driver, when they must have seen that in the Lada there were 2 passengers also in “fight-able” age.
As one of the Officer was a Sergeant, they were hardly fresh out of Cop School.
That the attackers could be arrested inside half-an-hour, after had fled from the scene, points to that they were well-known by the Police.
These 3 individuals will now be the guests of the State for some considerable time.
-
As Law and Mark’s ilk make this into a question of race and not a question that there are people who think they stand above the law and terrorize their neighbours and every one they meet, just shows the true face on their hate-mongering.
To treat these problems as a race issue will just increase the problems later.
Cin,
“One of many problems is that teaching is really an uninviting career path in that pay is low and responsibility is high”
I reacted negatively to this, but then realised that I was just guessing what you meant by ‘responsibility’. How is responsibility in teaching “high”? What responsibilities are you talking about?
Sophist: sorry I didn’t get to this sooner.To be honest, I don’t remember the deeper context of the whole post as it was some time ago.Generally speaking though, responsibility can be understood in more than one way; moral/ethical, legal, perhaps even ‘professional obligations’.I think being a teacher is one of the most important professions there is.Any professional educator who takes themselves seriously realises the enormous responsibility of guiding the way children form their view of the world.With the pressures that come with having to meet the burdensome and often contradictory requirements of being a teacher, combined with often having to face disruptive and abusive students, it’s hard to blame the ‘smart’ ones for not wanting to get involved in the teaching profession, but to seek higher pay and better conditions in other jobs.What often ends up happening is that the ones who stay are the ones who couldn’t get better jobs elsewhere, the ones who are killing time till retirement, and a smaller number of social minded and principled workers who often carry too much of the load and end up burnt out and disillusioned.
-
Hungary’s situation in regard to education funding and policy issues are hardly unique, even if perhaps more pressing than many other countries.I was also making the point that what happens in schools is not as much about a ‘Neo-Liberal agenda’ and more about the complex interplay of policy implementation and reaction.
Sophist cont-For the record, I’m not bagging teachers, although I do believe there are many that give the profession a bad name.Although my main focus is the sociology of mental health, a large part of that is the way educational institutions function as the first state regulated institution individuals come into contact with.What happens in schools plays a big part on the development of the ability of individuals to make pro-social choices Vs becoming involved in crime or other anti-social behaviour.Another important aspect of schooling is its effect on mental health directly, as well as the evolution of long-term social attitudes towards mental health issues.For teachers, being at the ‘coal face’ is a position of enormous responsibility.I’m sure we can all recall either good teachers who inspired us, or bad teachers who made our lives hell.What sucks for teachers is that they are not just the front line, but they are often also stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of the expectations of the community/state Vs reward for their work.(I could go on with examples of impossible situations that colleagues of mine have had to face)
-
I can tell by the way you write that you take your job seriously, and I think that’s all anyone can really ask.I hope I have answered your question.Why did you react negatively to my post?
I received 1 st loan when I was a teenager and this aided my business very much. But, I need the secured loan also.
Want to sit eased and chill out? This will be real, if you order the research essays from the essay samples service. Just because that’s not complicated and workable.
@”wolfie the joker”
So by your logic, the Arrow Cross party is blameless because they were only in “power” for a few months, and the communist and nazi regimes killed many, many more people. So being a failure at mass murder makes you okay. I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but I am willing to bet that, per capita, the Arrow Cross party murdered almost as many people per day as the Nazis and the Soviets, seeing that they were in power for many years, unlike the pathetic Hungarian fascists. Their ineptitude is one of the few things that give me hope for Hungary’s future.
Jobbik’s local leader Gabor Bencs told MTI that they had been attacked by 30 to 40 Roma people armed with hoes and axes.