The Supreme Court on Thursday approved its binding court ruling that far-right activist György Budaházy should perform 30 days of community service for his role in the Elisabeth Bridge blockade of 2002.
Budaházy entered the court in handcuffs, as he currently also faces charges of attempted murder and terrorism, and shouted “freedom” to a group of sympathisers outside. Hundreds of police officers secured the area with dogs. No incidents occurred.
Judge Annamária Schafer tolerated Budaházy’s sympathisers jeering and proclaiming “it’s a scandal” when she issued her verdict.
Jobbik MEP Krisztina Morvai was present and the court allowed her to speak with Budaházy for 20 minutes.
In his final speech Budaházy claimed the trail had been staged and implied that it had been protracted due to political factors. He will now take his case to the European Court of Human Rights.
Judge Annamária Schafer tolerated Budaházy’s sympathisers jeering and proclaiming “it’s a scandal” when she issued her verdict.
Jobbik MEP Krisztina Morvai was present and the court allowed her to speak with Budaházy for 20 minutes
——-
I hardly think that I would get the same soft treatment by an Hungarian Court.
A legal disgrace.
Gypsy Criminals
The stolen house worth 27 million forints.
In the town of Érd, gypsy criminals locked up a
family in a dark cellar, for three months and
forced them to sell their house for nothing. This
is the story, you should read and tell to your
friends or whoever interested in knowing the truth
about gypsy crime in Hungary.
István (30) and Kati (23) are husband and wife
with two children, Joci (2) and Zoli (4). They
wanted to start a business but needed some money
to borrow. They met an “agent” (a gypsy criminal)
that offered his services to the couple. Soon, a
meeting was set up between the family and the
supposed lender. The house where the meeting was
held belonged to the criminals; as soon as the
family arrived for the meeting the gypsies
apprehended them.
The family with the two children included has been
locked up in a cellar for three months. They were
fed once a day; at the end of the ordeal, the
family showed signs of malnutrition. The gypsies
put the couple’s older child into a bag and kept
the screaming and terrified child in the bag for a
considerable amount of time, in order to terrorize
the parents and break their resolve. At the end,
the criminals succeeded and the couple signed the
deal and sold their home for nothing.
But their torment didn’t end with the loosing of
the house. The gypsies told Kati that she would be
taken to Germany where she would have to work as a
prostitute. They said to István he would have to
merry a gypsy woman that takes care with the
children.
But in a lucky moment, the couple managed to
escape their prison cell and notify police. The
gypsies were arrested but the couple left
penniless and homeless with two young children.
Since the ordeal, the children have been having
nightmares. They need counselling; perhaps, they
will never recover from the trauma. And what
stunning in this whole affair is that the family
won’t get the house back, despite the fact that
they lost it to a wicked criminal scheme.
(Note: The law is made to favour monsters in human
form. The gypsies probably escape with a light
sentence and will be able to keep the stolen
house. A light sentence is very likely because the
court, too is corrupt and is in the service of the
satanic socialist crime syndicate made up by
foreign agents working for global interests. By
using double standards, the regime in tandem with
the complicit mainstream media does everything to
cover up gypsy crime. In the original report, in
Blikk, the writer of the article only hints that
the criminals were gypsies. Knowing the detestable
behaviour and the pattern of action by which the
regime and the complicit media try to cover up
gypsy crime makes it easy to pick out the identity
of the criminals. The Americans have a saying
“There’s a sucker born every minute”. Indeed, the
sucker is eternal. This couple too had to learn on
the hard way, what happens to those who are naive
enough and make business with gypsies.) Ambiance!
A sociological study conducted in gypsy populated
villages, found that gypsies are preferring
parasitic and criminal lifestyle and dissociating
themselves from those who would like to break out
of the vicious cycle of poverty.
The study has been conducted in Borsod-Abaúj-
Zemplén, Szabolcs-Szatmár-Bereg, Baranya, Somogy
counties examining 16 gypsy neighborhoods, in 14
municipalities.
The study found that there was no solidarity among
gypsies in these localities.
The only bond between gypsies is poverty.
The study found five problematic areas causing
disarray among gypsies; these are: alcohol,
children related issues, jealousy, usury and
gossipping.
Gypsy families have no structured lifestyle. The
only fix point in their daily routine is the day
when the social assistance arrives.
Gypsies don’t raise their children; they hold the
view that life will teach them whatever they need
to know. Children spend most of their time on the
street.
Usury is common practise among gypsies.
Researchers found that in 12 out of 14
municipalities, usury was a serious problem. Poor
gypsies borrow from richer gypsies and the money,
most of the time, goes towards booze, occasionally
doctors or paying fines.
According to the study, positive discrimination
deepened the hostility between the gypsy and non-
gypsy population.
Gypsies consider only property related misdeeds
criminal; other kinds of violence, like assaults
are legitimate ways of solving problems.
@DankoStinkoBacsi:
You don’t have to copy whole pages from that heap of feces called H..ambience.
It juST shows your stupidity!
If we wanted to read that crap, we’d look it up and have a good laugh at those jobo cretins and their mantra about “gypsy crime”.
Of course when jobos like Budahazi try to kill someone, that is not a crime that is “Patriotic”.
TO all JOBOS:
This is not a Jobbik site, so please stop your loonie propaganda – nobody wants to read it here.
This is a site for English speaking people who are intereted in Hungarian affairs of the present and future and not in Trianon or the Finno/Ugric connection or Gypsy /Jewish/whatever Crime or the knuckleheads of the Magyar Garda or any of your 19th century addleheaded pathologic rantings!
This site may be an anti-Hungarian propaganda site but it appears that the site owner decided to allow opinions other than those of Hungarian hating extremists realizing that without a variety of opinions the site would lose all credibility.
Jobbik and the Hungarian Guard are gaining support every time the Communist order their special police units on the Guard. The Communist MSZP is on its way out and probably for good. Jobbik’s 15% in the EP should significantly increase after the 2010 elections. Telling Hungarians what they can and cannot talk about is the height of German arrogance.
Some Hungarians are old enough to remember the soldiers of our “German allies”, their arrogance and brutality. You are in no position to judge and smear Hungarians, especially György Budaházy, a courageous Hungarian patriot. You are way out of line here, German boy.
György Budaházy, a courageous Hungarian patriot
Mark at December 8, 2009 9:51 AM
@Viking
it wasn’t Budahazy you Prick!
@Law
Speaking of violence, Draskovics, the Communist MSZP attack dog faked the terrorist bomb using a student exercise video he got off the Internet. So much for the Communist claims about terrorists. The only terrorists are the Communist MSZP special police and the gypsies they use against the Hungarians.
They do not say much about the people they arrested for murdering gypsies and we should not expect much information especially after it leaked out that one of them got his training in Israel. How convenient…
Danko: do you have a reference for the sociological study you mentioned about gypsy communities? I’d genuinely like to read it.
(MTI)Sourced
The average common resident in the regional cities and towns know from personal experience, they dont require no Shrink to tell the obvious.
@ Mark
Re: “György Budaházy, a courageous Hungarian patriot. ”
You mentioned on another thread “Communist Double speak” and that made sense.
In your world – what exactly does it mean when you call a violent criminal with outstanding attempted murder and engaging in terrorism charges a courageous Hungarian patriot? These charges are pending and people are innocent until convicted but he already has a criminal record that would disqualify him from being a “Courageous Hungarian Patriot” -
He wants to take his case to the European Court of Human Rights? Do you not see the irony? Someone who tramples on Human Rights? JOBBIK does have the market cornered on hypocracy.
I would love to read the facts that will be given in his application, as well as the article(s) of the Convention that he will cite that have been breached. What a joke.
Can’t wait for the Magyar Garda to submit an application for their Human Rights violation of not being able to wear the colours of their choice.
The problem with these accusations is that you assume that the Communists’ charges against György Budaházy, a courageous Hungarian patriot are true. They are not.
Had your parents told you about the Communists and if they had spoken the truth, they would have told you that the Communists brought to trials thousands of innocents on trumped up charges and practically all of their victims confessed to anything the Communists wanted them to confess to stop the torture. That is the tradition of MSZP (was MSZMP) and other than the endless tortures; their methods did not change any.
Those who hate Jobbik and the Hungarian Guard have no proof of any wrongdoing. It is a political charade. No American court would rule against them and I am confident that these proceedings and police brutality against the Hungarian Guard will be ruled unconstitutional.
Those of you who are caught up in your hate campaign against Jobbik and Hungarian Guard do not even know what it is they do and what it is they stand for. The Communists always welcomed the “useful idiots” in their campaign against the West but it is high time to fall for every lie printed in the pro-Communist Hungarian and Western media.
Lenin
The term is commonly attributed to Vladimir Lenin, sometimes in the form “useful idiots of the West”, to describe those Western reporters and travelers who would endorse the Soviet Union and its policies in the West. However, no reference to a communist sympathizer or political leftist as a “useful idiot” was made in the USA until 1948, and not until decades later would the use of the phrase by Lenin be commented on in the west. In 1948, the phrase was used in a New York Times article in relation to Italian politics; it was mentioned again in 1961. In the spring of 1987, Grant Harris, senior reference librarian at the Library of Congress, said “We have not been able to identify this phrase [useful idiots of the West] among [Lenin's] published works.”
…it is high time NOT to fall for every lie printed in the pro-Communist Hungarian and Western media.
Dear Mark,
People here have noticed no doubt that I’ve tended to stay away from threads where uniform wearing etc. was being discussed. Such discussions always degenerate into acrimony and name calling.
I’ve read quite a bit around here lately in such a vein. When you mention that a ban on MG uniforms would be unconstitutional in the US, I believe you are right. This issue has come up in the US, and the Supreme Court has upheld the wearing of political uniforms as protected by right of free speech. The high court over there has pretty much stuck to a “clear and present danger” standard when it comes to public expression, which means banning the inciting of violence or public mayhem.
That’s fine by me, but this is Hungary and the EU. To apply the American standard would mean allowing MG uniforms, fascist salutes, Nyilas crosses AND communsit uniforms and hammer and sickles, red stars and displays. In other words, any political symbols and expressions would be protected.
Europe has had too many dictartships, wars and political demons to exorcise for it to be comfortable with such a standard. Thus the EU and Hungarian law reflects more a standard dictated by political correctness, or “PC”. The law as it is now written and interpreted criminalises expressions of opinion as well as political differences. The nationalist right, which has little traction among the EU law makers, thus feels marginalised, possibly redicalising them.
To the dilemma above, I see no change or solution in the immediate future. The EU’s standard of what is acceptable political speech is not going to be changed by a small group of disaffected Hungarians. Nor do I see us leaving the EU anytime soon. We are not going to be living under the more tolerant standard upheld by the American Supreme Court on this issue. Those who uphold PC in Europe would never accept it.
Organisations like Jobbik and the MG are in danger of being in a legal “grey zone”. The right to express their views may or may not be tolerated under current laws. I’m not surprised Jobbik people don’t like the EU; but then again, I don’t see what they could do about that, except keep walking the legal tightrope.
You make a fine point, as usual. But I think it misses as much as it hits. As far I see it, the question at issue here is that the Magyar Gárda was operating for two years before it was deemed illegal. Without breaking any laws, which is still the case.
So all this talk about transgressing European standards of Political Correctness is all well and good, but it is self-evidently not the reason behind the politically motivated legal judgement. It maybe be what is said, but certainly not what was the motive. If it was then it would have been universally applied not specifically targetted.
How could they do what they were doing for so long and no-one did anything then. How come people could walk around saying Szebb Jövőtt without being arrested by Ministerial decree.
The action is politically motivated. The MG etc,. had to be banned not beacuase any Roma felt threatened, but self-evidently, because MSZP politicians who got the Roma vote did! This should at least be worrying.
When it is coupled with a demonstrated campaign of fabricating evidence to demonstrate “terrorism” (i.e. the film). It should be doubly worrying.
When you add the fact that the party doing this is the one most electorally challeneged by the constituency they are arresting. Alarm bells should be going off in everyone’s heads.
Plus the MSZP’s past record, and so on, the case is simply overwhelming. It’s Politics not PC. It’s using the power of the state to try and effect the election results.
the Magyar Gárda was operating for two years before it was deemed illegal. Without breaking any laws, which is still the case.
bobscountrybunker at December 8, 2009 7:00 PM
—
You keep repeating this line, but it is not getting more true for that.
Magyar Garda was deemed to violate its own criteria as a ‘Cultural Organisation’.
Which other ‘Cultural Organisation’ in the world do you see marching around in military formation, in uniform dress, pleading allegiance to a specific political party and being transported out to the country-side to intimidate local minorities?
Please give every one an example on a past or existing such organisation.
-
As I claimed before in other European countries, like Sweden, the ‘Uniformed Wing of a political party’ (or whatever you want to call them) are forbidden in law since WWII. As Mr Farkas points out, there is a historical reason for that.
What has that to do with MSZP?
Dear Bob,
I think your post addresses my concerns about the MG being in a legal “grey area”, as well as walking a tightrope. When you are in a legal grey zone, that means you legal status (or lack thereof) can change from one day to the next, all at governmental whim. Your example of MG’s status is an example of that.
Unless you have a legislature and high court that clearly protects what you are doing, this is sort of dilemma one faces. In the US, the subject of “medical marijuana” is another example of a legal grey area. Although it may be allowed under state law, federal law continues to prohibit it. Thus the “clinic” owners may go on operating, only to see their doors broken down someday by a police battering ram!
My original point is that Jobbik and MG are not likely to get much sympathy or support from EU style “PC”, and are not likley to get the clear govt assurances from Budapest and Brussels, that would keep them out of trouble in the future. They may be here today, only to be closed down tomorrow.
Under current law regards speech, you are in violation of the law if you so much as criticise minorities, or if you publish words to that effect. I think the standard should be banning incitement to violence. The latter, I just don’t see being enacted in Europe anytime soon.
the Magyar Gárda was operating for two years before it was deemed illegal. Without breaking any laws, which is still the case.
bobscountrybunker at December 8, 2009 7:00 PM
—
You keep repeating this line, but it is not getting more true for that.
How?
No. You then go on in your own initmitable, logic-free style of spouting more rubbish about “being deemed to violate cultural organization”. Blah. Blah. Blah.
I SAID laws.
How many laws were broken? How many crimes committed? How many people hurt?
Tell me…
It’s like you think all you have to do is just construct a random sentence after making an accusation: that has no relationship whatsoever to the subject uder discussion.
Exceeding Articles of Incorporation becomes “beaking laws.” Erm. No they don’t.
Taking 15% at elections becomes the same as being in government for 2 terms. Erm. No it doesn’t.
Are you purposefully being dishonest or are you just plain stupid?
I SAID laws.
How many laws were broken? How many crimes committed? How many people hurt?
Tell me…
…
Exceeding Articles of Incorporation becomes “beaking laws.” Erm. No they don’t.
bobscountrybunker at December 8, 2009 7:49 PM
—
As I have written before, no criminal laws were broken, so what is your problem?
But if you do not fulfil the rules that governs an organisation, your organisation will be declared dis-solved. Even if you officially create an organisation for ‘collecting rubber stamps’, if you do not follow the rules and doing ‘other things’ that organisation will be dis-solved also.
-
I see that you still cannot mention any similar organisation as ‘Magyar Garda’ as being a legal ‘Cultural Organisation’.
I have no problem understanding why.
As I have written before, no criminal laws were broken, so what is your problem?
Viking at December 8, 2009 8:18 PM
My problem Viking is that in your IMMEDIATELY preceding post you wrote:
“the Magyar Gárda was operating for two years before it was deemed illegal. Without breaking any laws, which is still the case.
bobscountrybunker at December 8, 2009 7:00 PM
—
You keep repeating this line, but it is not getting more true for that.”
Viking at December 8, 2009 8:18 PM
No Viking, you’re just a shit for brains. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.
You’re not worth wasting any more time on.
Farkas: My original point is that Jobbik and MG are not likely to get much sympathy or support from EU style “PC”, and are not likley to get the clear govt assurances from Budapest and Brussels, that would keep them out of trouble in the future. They may be here today, only to be closed down tomorrow.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I am equally at home in America and Hungary and understand that American laws do not apply to Hungary but neither EU laws until Hungary decides to adopt them.
The accusations and smears against Jobbik and Magyar Garda are false and scandalous. What I see is that people who have never been at a Jobbik or Magyar Garda event make accusations that are baseless. I know that similar accusations in America against people and institutions would lead to civil law suits and large damages in favor of those slandered.
I am acquainted with numerous patriotic lists and I do not see any manifestations of the things Jobbik and Magyar Garda is accused. What I see is a corrupt and very evil political system made up of Communist murderers, their children and grandchildren trying to find a scapegoat for their horrible actions over the past 65 years and in particular over the past eight years. It will not work. Hungarians can see through these lies and smears and their support for Jobbik and Magyar Garda is growing by the day.
Any attempt to close down Jobbik or Magyar Garda would be unsuccessful. We witnessed the Communist attempts and brutality against the Magyar Garda and it only made them stronger. I know what would happen if the Communists tried to close down Jobbik. It would lead to an uprising and the Communist murderers would lose.
You’re not worth wasting any more time on.
bobscountrybunker at December 8, 2009 8:25 PM
—
As usual Bob runs away when challenged.
Magyar Garda was legally dis-solved due to it was *not* a ‘Cultural Organisation’.
This is not a *criminal* act itself, but it will be when restoring Magyar Garda in any shape, then such an organisation *cannot* be legal in Europe.
Maybe Mr Farkas is correct, you guys have all to move to the US and march around there instead.
-
A ‘Cultural Organisation’ is still legal.
Magyar Garda is *not* a ‘Cultural Organisation’.
A is not equal to B.
Very simple.
–
I still see that Bob cannot come up with *any* similar ‘Cultural Organisation’ anywhere, any-time, in the world.
Wonder why…
I know what would happen if the Communists tried to close down Jobbik. It would lead to an uprising and the Communist murderers would lose.
Mark at December 8, 2009 8:31 PM
—
Oh, then you must immediately propose this to the Hungarian Government then, so your Hungarian friends come to power.
Bobs doesn’t seem to get the distinction between the US legal system and the EU legal system… the ramifications of “law” in one or the other may be different and perhaps SHOULD given the wildly different histories/problems between the two.
But Bob would rather be insulting as he gets impatient with others’ inability to instantly jump over to his point of view. I guess it keeps things colorful here, but from one American to another, Bob maybe if you grew up in Europe and had seen bodies burning in the streets etc. and the uniformed mobs running around maybe you would have more of a visceral understanding of Europe’s needs when they create THEIR own laws? Easy for an American to say “Free wearing of uniforms NEVER caused ANYONE any problems!… What’s wrong with a little armed militia here and there?!”
I am not a fan of Jobbik nor the Magyar Garda. Freedom of speech and the common rights of people is paramount.
It concerns me that MG and Jobbik are often fiercely opposed and attacked whilst other organisations of dubious repute get away with murder.
Hungary is in a mess socially and economically and many villages and city communities are awash with gypsies. They do not integrate and stick doggedly to their own culture.Accept it or not, many native Hungarians dislike Roma. This is a fact of life.
Massive unemployment and scandals and poor administration combine to make Hungary a very dangerous place to live at the moment. Believe it or not…
Hi Mark,
Someone quoted the speech law here on some past thread, in Hungarian. It appears modelled after the EU standard. Under it, both criticism of a minority, as well as incitement to violence against them, are equally prohibited. It may not always be enforced consistently, but that doesn’t give much real legal protection to groups and people viewed as “nationalists”. The law, as it is written, can still be used to criminalise political differences, something Europeans have a long experience with. It can also be used to quash other forms of expression, such as publication and websites.
The right, in the US, has sidestepped this kind of difficulty in public discourse in the past. Rather than go on about “black crime”, they’ve learned to just focus on “crime” and how to stop it. Who the criminal court defendents turn out to be, is kismet!
All I can suggest to nationalist groups is that they are going to need good lawyers on retainer, as well as public relations pros. Given the current state of the law, they are going to need them.
@Mark: You said:What I see is that people who have never been at a Jobbik or Magyar Garda event make accusations that are baseless.
Now just look for a moment here
http://www.jobbik.com/europe-news/3127.html
and here
http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/12/gabor-vonas-speech-at-congress-of.html
and read carefully…
and think about what you wrote:
…it is high time NOT to fall for every lie printed in the pro-Communist Hungarian and Western media.
So everyone who doesn’t share your opinion is a communist – very easy for you loonie…
@ Mark
You said a US court would not rule against the MG They would not rule against the KKK Uniform either. So that proves what?
Moreover, you don’t have to live in a Communist country to be wrongly charged and convicted.
If you are living in the US – just listen to CNN concerning the Amanda Knox case in Italy – the defense lawyers are complaining that instead of dumping on the unfair legal system in Italy, the US should examine its own unfair legal system when it comes to poor Blacks, trumped up charges and wrongful convictions. Even the defense in the US is “one for the poor and one for the rich.” Public Prosecutors, no chance to pick your own lawyer.
As I write this , there is a huge scandal in the US for executing a man a few years ago and new evidence shows he was innocent. To make matters worse, the Governor of the state was hiding the innocent evidence for years – (if you need names, I could come up with them) The point is that wrongful convictions and trumped up charges are alive and well in both Canada and the USA – not limited to the perpetual victim named “Hungary”
Of all the Hungarian heroes you could come up with, it was Budahazy? Let’s see what the Courts have to say about his upcoming charges.
Just exactly how were his Human Rights been violated?
What is this obsession with Communism? BTW, I don’t label the worst Communist’s child or grandchild evil unless s/he actually proved herself/himself to be evil. Ditto for Hitler’s descendants.
@Olga: Another thing that troubles me: The USAs relationship with weapons – I can’t understand it.
BTW: What about Canada’s weapon laws ? Are they similar ? And how do people feel about guns ?
@ Wolfi
In 1995,the government introduced new, stricter, gun control legislation. All guns including rifles had to be registered
While law abiding citizens registered their firearms and paid money for licenses, the criminals were not exactly lining up to register their illegal guns.
The gun debate went on forever but to the best of my knowledge ,there was no reduction in gun related crimes.
Last month, the government introduced a Bill that would abolish the requirement to register non-restricted long guns.
I don’t know much about the correlation between possession of fire-arms and crime. What I do know opposing sides can produce impressive statistical data to support their own agendas
According to the police, most of the illegal guns are smuggled in from the USA where it’s as easy to obtain a gun legally as it is to buy a dozen eggs. Not sure if applies to all the States or just some of them.
“As usual Bob runs away when challenged.”
I do not believe that Bob is running away from your questions but it is no use trying to engage you in a reasoned debate because you are not capable of it. According to your own statements, that is if you can be trusted to tell the truth, you and wolfi are not Hungarians. What we have here two foreigners who would be welcome to provide a different input if they knew how to behave but your constant name-calling and slanderous accusations against Hungarians and Hungarian organizations make you the kind of guests that one would throw out without further ado. However, the owner of the list is obviously biased against Hungarians who believe that Hungary is for Hungarians as indicated by the selection and wording of the topic and it means that your ilk is here to stay. Bob and others who are offended by your anti-Hungarian slurs may have to tolerate the presence of people such as you and wolfi but it does not mean that they have to debate you. Walking down the streets of any Hungarian village, the dogs will bark at you while you pass. It may be a bit annoying but it does not mean that one has to get down on all fours and bark back at them.
National Rifle Association has nearly 4 million members, they are very patriotic and they are heavily armed. There has never been anyone insane enough to try to close them down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association
Barking dogs are the one reason I would consider legalising weapons. …just kidding.On a serious note, on this subject, I often see the argument that ‘laws won’t stop criminals from getting guns and so we have a right to defend ourselves.’On the surface, this sounds reasonable until you consider that the vast majority of gun related deaths are caused by people who until that moment weren’t criminals themselves.Similar to sexual or any other kind of assault, you’re far more likely to be murdered by someone you know than by a stranger or even a mentally ill person (another common misperception and axe that I grind).In other words, it’s not the ‘criminals’ with guns we should fear, but the ill-tempered, the frustrated, the guy who thinks you cut him off in the traffic…and think about this, if the average Magyar has access to firearms, that would also mean the average Gypsy or other minority group member also would.No matter who you feel is to blame for the pre-existing circumstance the thought of so many people who clearly hate each other with guns should terrify us all.I know that ‘the right to bear arms’ in the US comes from the need for citizens to protect themselves from oppression and allowed the US to liberate itself from the British.Let’s not also forget though that not all that long after the war of independence came the civil war.Does anyone really want a civil war in Hungary? The following post is an abstract from a worldwide study on gun related deaths.
Firearm-related deaths in the United States and 35 other high- and upper-middle- income countries
EG Krug, KE Powell and LL Dahlberg
Division of Violence Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Centers for Disease control and Prevention Mallstop K60, 4770 Buford Hwy, Atlanta, GA 30341, USA
BACKGROUND: The Forty-Ninth World Health Assembly recenttly declared violence a worldwide public health problem. Improved understand of cross-national differences is useful for identifying risk factors and may facilitate prevention efforts. Few cross-national studies, however, have explored firearm-related deaths. We compared the incidence of firearm-related deaths among 36 countries.METHODS: Health officials in high-income (HI) and upper-middle-income countries (UMI) with populations greater than one million were asked to provide data using ICD-9 codes on firearm-related homicides, suicides, unintentional deaths and deaths of undetermined intent, as well as homicides and suicides for all methods combined. Thirty-six (78%) of the 46 countries provided complete data. We compared age-adjusted rates per 100 000 for each country and pooled rates by income group and geographical location. (cont)
RESULTS: During the one-year study period, 88 649 firearm deaths were reported. Overall firearm mortality rates are five to six times higher in HI and UMI countries in the Americas (12.72) than in Europe (2.17), or Oceania (2.57) and 95 times higher than in Asia (0.13). The rate of firearm deaths in the United States (14.24 per 100 000) exceeds that of its economic counterparts (1.76) eightfold and that of UMI countries (9.69) by a factor of 1.5. Suicide and homicide contribute equally to total firearm deaths in the US, but most firearm deaths are suicides (71%) in HI countries and homicides (72%) in UMI countries.
CONCLUSIONS: Firearm death rates vary markedly throughout th industrialized world. Further research to identify risk factors associated with these variations may help improve prevention efforts.
I am far more interested in statistics that show how many criminals were deterred or eliminated by potential victims who defended themselves, their families and their home with firearms. If an objective study was available, one could weigh the pluses and minuses of firearm ownership.
American neighborhoods also go down and many people move not because they no longer like their homes but because their new neighbors present a threat to them. As I was advancing in my professional career, I was able to move to better and better neighborhoods. When we moved into our new home, leaving the other because the changed neighborhood no longer suited us, our new neighbor came over, introduced himself and gave me his phone number, saying that he was an NRA member and that I could call him if there was any trouble. I never had to call Tom but when this neighborhood also started to decline, Tom moved back to Illinois to be close to his family’s farm. About a year after Tom moved, we moved also. This time, we really dug deep into our resources and moved to a small community that was not likely ever to go down.
Tom was a patriotic American and I fondly recall his shirt with the American flag and the note “try to burn this flag asshole”. Tom and most of our neighbors proudly displayed Old Glory on national holydays and I often think of Tom when I read about the slime balls that protest against and smear our historic national flags. Why don’t these people go where the flags are more to their liking?
Homeowners owning firearms for protection is second nature in real America and it should be legal in Hungary also. Many Hungarians, especially older Hungarians abandoned to cigánybünözők in the villages would be alive today if they had the means to defend themselves from those who rob them and cut their throats just for the fun of it.
Well…I recognise that you didn’t say this in these words, but I don’t think it is much of a stretch to say that you would rather ‘sacrifice’ a few thousand people for the sake of of very few who might have been deterred or prevented from committing crimes by citizens with guns.What I don’t think you realise is that fear of punishment or negative possibility doesn’t deter crime.If anything, making guns more available empowers and emboldens people to commit crimes.All guns really do is raise the stakes of altercations between individuals, with gun related outcomes far more likely to result in fatalities.As I mentioned, crime is not effectively deterred by threat of consequence, if that were the case there wouldn’t be MILLIONS of people ‘involved’ in the US corrections system.Research shows that the most effective and cheapest forms of crime prevention are education and disadvantage mitigation programmes.Incidentally, the thought of the NRA with its 4 million heavily armed members, and the thought that no-one is game to close them down actually scares me a bit.It seems contrary to the principals of freedom and democracy that any group should exist through its ability to intimidate.I would hope, rather, that they exist because they don’t break the local laws either as a group or as individual members.
Incidentally, while non-gun related crime rates are more or less comparable between Hungary and most similar countries, gun-related deaths are remarkably low…noticeably even lower than Australia and New Zealand.Conversely, the US is by far and away the world’s highest, ahead of Mexico and Brazil, countries with violent reputations.I just don’t see how introducing weapons into Hungary could possibly be a good thing.There are already too few Hungarians in the world…
Twisting and misrepresenting what your adversaries say seem to be a thing with you people. Your statement that I “would rather ‘sacrifice’ a few thousand people for the sake of of very few who might have been deterred or prevented from committing crimes by citizens with guns” is a lie.
First, I did not say any such thing and second, law-abiding people having guns save lives because the criminals can always get guns and knowing that their victims have no guns only emboldens them.
Your statement about the NRA is another lie. The NRA’s and every law abiding American citizen’s right to bear arms in guaranteed by the US Constitution. They do not threaten anyone. What you learned about democracy under the Communist MSZP/SZDSZ dictatorship is not what free people call democracy.
Mark, it’s unfortunate that you reacted that way, as it was not my intent to provoke such a response.As my post says at the beginning, I recognise that you did not say that in those words, but rather that it could be interpreted that way.As to the NRA comment, I was responding to the way you phrased your earlier post about the NRA being 4 million strong, patriotic and heavily armed, and that no-one dared to close them down. I was saying that this though scared me and that I preferred to believe that they hadn’t been closed down because they were generally law-abiding.I would expect those in the NRA should be the most responsible and capable in handling weapons.What bothers me though is that even if this is the case, membership in such a group is not a mandatory pre-requisite for owning a gun.
It is regrettable that such misunderstandings happen in such fora as this. Nevertheless, it is useful in pointing out that misunderstandings can very easily escalate to the point where communication is all but lost with the expression of insults, and when things really start to go pear-shaped, threats…Now imagine a country with a lot of pent-up, smouldering hatreds and a pile of freely available weapons. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.I just think this is one more thing that Hungary would be far better off avoiding following the US example.
Oh, and by the way Mark…I have seen more than a few posts by other conservative posters, who hardly regard the US as a shining light of freedom and democracy.I personally have many issues with the US, and I do have some cynicism about democratic process there, but it certainly could be much worse.Also Mark, you might want to read some of my other posts to realise that I’m not from Hungary, but rather from a country with a far more established democratic system, with arguably just as free a society as the US. (in some ways more, in some ways less)
For the record, I have no problem with patriotism as such, until it becomes nationalism and fanaticism. To me, the idea of a free society is one where you don’t live in fear of either the government or your fellow citizens.
@Mark:
Yes I am not Hungarian – but I live here 50% of the year with my Hungarian wife – so I am not entitled to be on this site ?
Then tell me please what is your (and Laws’s and Bob…’s and Pavaszem’s) connection to Hungary – or your privileged position that you may spout your fascist jobo nonsense here ?
Hi Mark
Nice to see your perception fine-tuned to the dribble Neo Liberals use to try and debate an argument.
Majority of their statistics are manipulated to bring in the laws of disarming nations, one of the United Nations objectives, and ignorant Cinaed is a Torch carrier for the mob of Neo Liberal mobsters. Australia have the Martin Bryant case where the nation was suckered into believing the false propaganda of Port Arthur Massacre. Adjon az Isten!
@Cináed
America has many problems thanks to Bush and his neocons but these are passing things. Roosevelt placing Japanese-Americans in concentration camps during the war was another violation of US Constitution. The basic principles are sound; especially the Bill of Rights is so unique that there is nothing like that anywhere.
If you know and understand Western democracies than I do not have to tell you that what we have in Hungary now is not a democracy but a continuation of Communist dictatorship. The MSZP and SZDSZ are not Socialist; they are Communists who converted their blood soaked political advantage of MSZMP to rob the country blind. Any self-respecting Socialist should be offended if these charlatans tried to cozy up to them.
Jobbik have a weapon which is frightening for the
current politicians who are living in a matrix of
social psychotic reality. This boxed in reality
has drifted so far from the people of the
electorate of Hungary that these social psycho
politicians are being shaken up by Jobbiks weapon,
most of the politicians who have ruled in this
false reality are targeting Jobbik with media
slander of Nazi . Racist, Radical etc, and it’s
back firing in favor of Jobbik.
Magyar Garda are a national group of volunteers
who have national interests at stake, who have
progressively developed from utilizing the most
powerful weapon which is the Truth!
Whilst projecting the Truth and standing by it
hand on heart, the psychos have been unveiled,
the sinister corrupt characters lurking in the
shadows of Hungarian politics.
The weapon of truth is the platform Jobbik and
Magyar Garda have stood upon ever since it’s
founding days. They don’t carry fire arms, tear
gas, illegal arrests etc like the current regime
ruling in Hungary, who beat and torment it’s
citizens by introducing and using laws of Human
right’s in the most hypocritical manner.
The weapon Jobbik and Magyar Garda represent is
Truth and this is the most powerful force a group of
people can have collectively to create a positive
change, it’s our only hope left to bring back the
reality of uniting politicians with the interests of
people of a nation, growing the nation into being a
proud valiant country of Hungarian patriots who have
morals and virtues.
These Psycho Politicians are in a ditch so filthy of
corruption and so deep they can’t crawl out of this
hole and from this pit they are trying to yank
Jobbik and smear them with their lies, there gutless
filthy lies.
foreigners who would be welcome to provide a different input if they knew how to behave
Mark at December 9, 2009 9:12 AM
—
You totally miss it as usual then I live in Hungary, unlike you and Bob.
The name-calling is something you and Bob can hardly claim to be innocent from.
I have lost track of what Bob called me in the beginning (6 months back when he joined the club), but normally one never wins anything on it, but it can be fun sometimes.
To call everyone that are against Jobbik for ‘anti-Hungarian’ just mean that you will loose all respect from others.
Bob has a hard time discussing issues, he normally discuss the form of discussions instead, like that would be very interesting.
Many Hungarians, especially older Hungarians abandoned to cigánybünözők in the villages would be alive today if they had the means to defend themselves from those who rob them and cut their throats just for the fun of it.
Mark at December 9, 2009 12:56 PM
—-
And how many would have been ‘saved’?
Your statements shows that you have lost touch with Europe and Hungary, we actually value human life higher than property.
Your attitude is to kill ‘unwanted’ people for stealing a chicken.
Instant justice, so why not kill shop-lifters at Tesco, so we, who actually pay tax in this country, do not need to pay for the trial?
A chicken to some people is very significant, although I do not say “kill” the thief;but, it should not be dismissed as insignificant either. I do not know if this is true or not, but am I to understand that the police will not even investigate an incident that is under 20,000 forint? What arrogance! I see no different between a theft of 10 frt or 1000 frt. Stealing is stealing.
Hi Zsuzsa: How’s things? I generally agree with you that stealing is stealing and that yes, something as ‘small’ as a chicken can be very significant to some.I do, however, understand the argument that the police make that with so many crimes to investigate and with a lack of time and resources, they must draw a line between what is ‘worth’ investigating (ie: crimes they are actually likely to solve, and ones which represent a higher emotional and material cost to the community).I’ve had to face that reality myself when my car was broken into and the thieves managed to steal all of $5 worth of change.Fixing the window cost more than the money they took…I’d have given them the money had they knocked on my door and asked for it…anyway, the police wouldn’t investigate since as they explained, in a city of 2 million people, finding a couple of punks who broke into an old bomby car is hardly a priority when there are rapists and bank-robbers and such walking the streets with impunity.On this, I agree with Viking’s sentiments that the potential of someone being shot and killed is extreme for a crime of ‘low value’ and works against the idea that we have the right to live in a society governed by rule of law. Hope you’re well.
@ Cinead;
All is great, thx for asking. I am personally not comfortable at all with the idea of everybody and their dog being allowed to carry guns as seems to be the situation in the US. Thats how they want it , so be it. Lets just say that I am grateful not to have the opportunity to access one when I am really pissed, given Canadas gun laws. To my knowledge, there is no police force on earth that has the resources to investigate every little thing and I do not expect them to. I also had my Jeep broken into years ago (I had the soft top on it at the time for it was summer)instead of unzipping the top, they smashed out a window as well made off with a few cassettes. I told you it was years ago! No big deal really-except they took my Mathew Wilde tape. It was a good album.
Anyhow, I think that the issue that I have is more so in the smaller towns/villages scattered across Hungary. For years I lived in small towns/hamlets/villages throughout Western Canada. In these towns, the law enforcement in these areas are the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), they have, as I understand it, more of a military type training as opposed to “city” police officers. My point is, these officers have a pulse on the community that they are in. I do not get that same type of feeling when I am in Hungary, better yet, it feels like the tail is wagging the dog if you know what I mean. If anybody would know about this, it would be you. Is it because of their pay, leaving them vulnerable to
con’t;
pay offs? Are they ill trained; ie self defence, mediators etc.? Do they have the back up if a situation were to occure? Are they just too short staffed, they themselves feel vulnerable and have no intention of putting themselves in situations that they might not get help in getting out of? You tell me, you worked with some of the cops in Hungary. What are they concerns, what do they think are the issues facing them
Hi Zsuzsa: I appreciate your point about not having access to guns, this is precisely what I’ve been saying.I know from the weapons training I did with the cops that actually firing a gun is way too easy…just a gentle squeeze and ‘pop’ the power of life and death explodes from the angry end of beast.That is NOT the kind of power that should be available to most of us in a pissed off mood.It turns an unhappy camper into a murderer…not something anyone wants.
To answer your question about the cops, and forgive me if I repeat myself a bit.I think the Hungarian cops are badly under-trained in social issues, problem-solving and emotional management stuff.They spend most of their time learning how to do the ‘practical’ stuff like clubbing, fighting and using weapons.Also, the culture of the police force lends itself to the “Don’t think about it, just do it.” mentality.I also think there is a lot of corruption in the police force in general, but rather than being a big, complex conspiracy, it is more a culture of taking what you can get…more opportunism than anything else.Cops do cover for each other when they’re in trouble for doing something wrong, partly because of the need to know you can depend on each other in a crisis, but also because “there but for the grace of God go I.”As to the big conspiracies at the top, well…I’m sure they are there, but of course those involved are going to do their best to hide it.
(cont)
The police community is at once united and badly fragmented at the same time.There is a perpetual competition between sections for resources, and a perpetual competition within departments of sections for resources.The training system of the police force is especially bad like this.The social sciences departments (including languages, criminology, sociology etc) have to constantly fight for survival, with preference being given to the ‘real’ policing areas.In fact, much of what exists in this area of the police training is only there because of EU requirements which the schools constantly fail to meet.The teaching of English is just basically pathetic, something that is reinforced with older officers doing everything they can to avoid having to deal with anyone in another language.Even emergency operators are under-trained and I heard many stories of desperate callers being hung up on because no-one was available who could speak their language.In short, much of what people see as a police force in Hungary is a facade.Their doesn’t seem to be any shortage of hardware, but when it comes to ‘software’ well, let’s just say the cops are using DOS when the rest of the world is up to XP. (I’m not generous enough to say anyone is advanced as Win 7)…ok, patchy analogy, but I hope you get it.
(cont)
Finally, I think the officers themselves face a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” reality.If they did investigate all the complaints they received, people would complain about Hungary going back to being a Police state.If they don’t investigate, then everyone complains about there being anarchy in the streets.If they go in and break up protests, they are accused of police brutality, if they don’t, then they are accused of not protecting the peace or the property of the citizenry.Most of the recruits I worked with became cops because it was one area that was offering stable jobs with some sense of permanence and early retirement (if you make it).Most are just kids really from ordinary backgrounds, thrown into circumstances that would test even the strongest among us.Sadly, the combination of a lack of emotional training and an ethical culture leads many to become corrupted.I spent a lot of time trying to at least challenge the ones I came into contact with to use their heads when it came to difficult situations…not to ‘shoot first and ask questions later’, and to think carefully about their ethical positions on a range of topics.I tried to instill in them a sense that they were humans first, citizens second and cops third.
(cont)I also know that the amalgamation of the hataroseg and rendorseg caused enormous internal issues.Schools and posts that had been one or the other resented being thrown together.It also created huge issues with consistency of training since the two sections were trained to deal with two fundamentally different tasks.Competition between academies became even more fierce and acrimonious with each spying on each other to ‘steal’ favour in the eyes of management.It also created turmoil in postings.Because of the aformentioned training issues, hatoroseg officers tended to be posted to regional areas where rendorseg officers were sent to urban areas.This meant however, that the many trainees and officers who had originated from regional areas were now far less likely to be posted to areas similar to their experience, much less their home regions, conversely, these regional ‘kids’ were thrown into the centre of Budapest.This problem was aggravated by the govt rushing students through their training to get them on the streets in time for an increased presence during the March 15 ‘festivities’ and again for the October 23 protests.I heard after I finished my contract that training time has been cut even further now, which I think is obscene.I think that some of the effects of this is that officers have no connection with the communities they are working in, and in many cases resent and are resented by the residents.I’d never want to be a cop, especially in Hungary.
(final post…sorry for the novel)
so all in all, police officers suffer enormously high rates of depression and other mental health issues such as anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder, suicide, alcoholism and drug-abuse.Relationship failure is far higher for police force members.As with most of Hungary’s institutions (as Mark also pointed out) not much has changed structurally since 1989 with just the ‘forms’ of democracy being tacked on over the top of the old communist systems.Many of the commanders are still serving in the same positions (or higher) as they did during the communist period.Much of the same culture exists, and many of the tactics of enforcing power and expectations haven’t changed.I experienced this myself when being ‘requested’ to write complimentary reports for the funding body of the programme I was working under.(actually the way it happened kind of scared me, but that’s a story for another day)I think Hungarians are suspicious of the police force as a whole with good reason, and I certainly do not defend the way power is enacted both within the force and outwardly on the community.Having said that, I do have some sympathy for the officers who, after all, are just human beings caught in the middle of a bad situation of divided loyalties and ideals of duty Vs humanity.Remember too, the officers who have to go into really dangerous situations day after day are also someone’s son or daughter and all they want to do after work is go home and forget.
@ Cinead;
Thank you for your responce, though I have to admit, it saddens me hearing what you just said…I believe, the truth. I can not help myself from feeling anger. Anger, not towards the average cop for having to deal with what is presented to them and not knowing any better or at least not knowing what else to do. (Past practices if you will, corporate culture?) More towards the present Government ( MSZP)for having put these people in the position that they have. Putting all Hungarians into the position that they find themselves in today. Having to sort things out for themselves.
The only comfort I find, is that what comes around goes around. Not necessarily as quickly as I would like to see; but, comes around non the less.
Z
@Law: Jobbik have a weapon which is frightening…
This is very true, my friend as well as the rest of your post.
Thank you!
@Cined: Thanks a lot for your description of the problems of the “average Hungarian policeman” – I’ve often talked to my neighbour who is a retired policeman (with my limited knowledge of Hungarian) and he told me interesting stories about the time when he was driving around the Balaton with his BMW…
Especially the. transition after 1989 must have been difficult for the police, because many people saw them as a relicc of the old system and would no longer accept their authority.
At least I’m lucky – in that part of Hungary where we live the only confrontations with the police for me have been when they wanted to check my müszaki vizsga (the German TÜV) – it seems some Germans drive around in their old caars without MOT and/or insurance (not me of course).
@justasking:
Please tell us wht FIDESZ did differently when they were in government – I think it was at lest for years, but I don’t remember any difference to the MSZP years…
There is no difference between FIDESZ and MSZP and he who thinks there is, is a fool. Same shit just a slightly lighter shade of red.
Zsuzsa: It makes me angry that the police force is used as a political instrument at all. Separation of powers is supposed to be one of the central tenets of democracy, but what Hungary experiences/has experienced is public safety or the lack thereof being used as a means of manipulating the fears of the public into a constant state of hysteria.This again is a continuation of cold war era tactics in maintaining control over their populations. What is particularly dangerous for Hungary is that the population is becoming polarised internally. I think the communists were very effective in applying this method of social manipulation, but I don’t think we should overlook the ability of the West for the same thing…re: McCarthyism and the ‘Domino effect’ hysteria. Ultimately, the world was held to ransom by power-holding groups who really only had a passing and very pragmatic loyalty to the ideals they claimed to hold.
@Justasking
I am not very happy about Orban and Kover’s Communist dirty laundry but it is a mistake to say, “There is no difference between FIDESZ and MSZP”.
For my part, I am for Jobbik and have no use for Fidesz but while Fidesz has some lesser Communists in their leadership, the majority of Fidesz supporters are patriotic Hungarians. A very important point is that Fidesz rejected and condemns the Communists, not one of their leaders is as committed, and evil Communist as you find in the ranks of MSZP and SZDSZ.
I recall earlier campaigns when the Communists were successful in 1994 to elect the Communists and Gyula Horn for Prime Minister. The Communists fooled the Hungarian voters into believing that Orban being a former kisztitkár was no different from Horn the pufalykás Communist murderer and the instrument of Soviet/Kádár terror.
Thankfully, Hungarians no longer have to choose between a somewhat soiled Fidesz and the Communist murderers. There is a third choice, Jobbik but if there were no Jobbik, I would hold my nose and vote for Fidesz.
My recommendation to Jobbik supporters is not get too wrapped up with how bad Fidesz is but to concentrate on the evils of Communist MSZP/SZDSZ mafia and Jobbik’s pro-Hungarian program.
In my political daydreams (yes, I’m a nerd…Sandor says so) I think Hungary’s political system should be put on bypass while all of the political offices are vacated and departments deleted and then re-written from the ground up. (traces of nihilism there I know, but not to the point of anarchy)…what I’m talking about is something like how when a company becomes insolvent, the administrators are called in while the whole mess is sorted out and the company is either traded out of bankruptcy or wound up.Don’t ask me who the ‘administrator’ should be…of course I’m not really being serious, but sometimes it seems that the problems run so deep that total reform is the only way.It’s just sad that it didn’t happen at the most opportune time, as things would be so much harder now, with the consequences all the worse.I was commenting to someone the other day about how although for many the transition out of communism was bloodless, the failure to root out players of the old regime was destined to lead to problems later.Someone here (FL maybe) compared this period in Hungary to the German Weimar Republic, which I thought was interesting…and also makes one think of the warning signs of what could follow if the social problems aren’t solved.
Mark, I quite liked your last post. Thanks.
@Mark: “My recommendation to Jobbik supporters is not get too wrapped up with how bad Fidesz is but to concentrate on the evils of Communist MSZP/SZDSZ mafia and Jobbik’s pro-Hungarian program.”
You’re not much of a politician are you Mark. They need to do precisely what you are asking them not to. Their vote has stagnated now at around 9-12% of decided voters. To make further gains they need to eat into Fidesz voters hearts. This is going to be made easier by Fidesz early attempts to distance themselves from Molnar. Jobbik can now rightly claim to be the real bigoted, hate mongers and Fidesz’s heart really isn’t in it for the planned cultural cleansing to come. From where else is Jobbik going to get more votes? As you note yourseéf MSZP are pretty much rock bottom.
I see no hate or bigotry in Jobbik but I see it in those who hate Jobbik and the Magyar Garda. There are no murderers and torturers in Jobbik’s ranks. There are no murderers and torturers in Fidesz’s ranks. However, the ranks of Communist MSZP/SDSZ are loaded with Communist murderers and tortures, their children and grandchildren. They are also thieves who rubbed the Hungarians blind while shooting out their eyes and brutalizing them.
There was a time when Communist propaganda and lies carried some weight but no more.
@Mark
Bravo!
@Mark: Who on earth are you preaching to?
@Bobs…: Bravo!!!??? (And “well in that man” from a few days ago. Only my public school cricket teacher ever used that one.) Did cryogenic scientists reanimate you from someone’s Victorian Dad?
@Mark: Your and Bobs… cartoon view of the world is lovely and comforting, but the percentage of people that are as simple as you are already committed to voting for Jobbik. The rest have to be persuaded with something more than the ‘feeding the seals at the zoo’ show that Jobbik have put on so far. What you think of MSZP/SZDSZ is irrelevant. And since you think I am one of them you are unable to listen. Lovely thing to see the world in black and white, but I’d update your daguerrotype world view for the widescreen multimedia home entertainment version – it’s more stimulating.
Regarding my posts about Communist murderers and tortures in the MSZP and SZDSZ:
“I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it’s hell.”
Harry S Truman (33rd President of the United States)
@Vándroló
Bravo? Is supposed to be some sort of anachronism now is it? You’ve never heard a Hungarian say, “Bravó!” before I suppose?
No Vánroló, as you prove to everyone with each succesive post: it is you who are the one with the cartoonish naive view of Hungarian politics. And the less you suceed in making people join you in believing it, the more unhinged you get.
“What you think of MSZP/SZDSZ is irrelevant,” you say. It is precisely this view which has injured Hungary the most for two decades, both I and Mark recognize this fact. And the more you state it, to use Viking’s expression, that doesn’t make it any less false.
If you just showed your true colours and attempted to make a positive case for voting Fidesz, people here might actually respect you. Me included. But every post is always just paper thin attack piece against Jobbik, with “cultural cleansing” and other such nonsense.
This sure as hell contradicts what you would have us dearly believe. That the Jobbik vote is “stagnating” and is not deeply frightening Fidesz supporters such as yourself.
Is it not lovely to day dream about what would have happened if Hungary had been ‘cleansed out of all Communists’ just as it happened in ….
Where was it again?
Yeah, Iraq.
But there it was not the Communists, there it was the followers of Saddam, but gives a good example to compare with.
What was the criticism against the US for throwing Iraq down into (what is seen today as) eternal chaos?
- Yes, destroying old institutions, firing all civil and military servants and building everything from the ground again.
-
Funny that the hardest critics against the US tactics are the one’s that wanted the same being applied in Hungary…
well, I did say I wasn’t being serious. Of course it’s not reasonable to think of wiping the slate clean and starting again. I still think though that the best time for radical reform was the end of the communist regime, and that now things are way more out of control…I also think that perhaps the most valuable resource in reform was lost…that is, the good will of the people. In the immediate post-communist period, I would argue that people would have been more willing to accept big changes and would have been more amenable to the adjustment in services and taxation etc. Every political system has its ‘honeymoon period’. That has well and truly past now and what’s worse, is that euphoria has given way to disappointment, disillusionment, cynicism and suspicion.In many ways, the views expressed by the more extreme posters are hardly surprising and show just how deep general dissatisfaction in that the voicing of such sentiments would probably not be tolerated so readily by a more stable and moderate population.All this discussion on voting etc actually made me think about who I would vote for in Hungary if I was a citizen.The far right would be out, I’d have big problems voting socialist, which means that I would probably be compelled to vote for the centre right. …that’s on idealistic basis anyway.I haven’t accounted for personal attributes as I don’t really know enough about that.
@Cinaed
What I find interesting how you claim to have experienced working alongside the Hungarian police. I have empathy with majority of the police force, but this is still no excuse for the corruption the police are committing in Hungary.
The Neo liberals are fueling the dog eat dog attitude within the department. As you say that the lack of training provided to officers is a key reason for the lack of performance. Education is crucial to help raise the standard of living here.
You at no time even mention anything about the private Inkal security forces trained by Israel and recruited to protect corrupt political leaders.
Did you have any exposure to this whilst you worked in Hungary? Please a man of your networking capabilities surely would not be this naïve.
Don’t you see that the ex communists are still in control and are using the laws to try and control people and as soon as they demonstrate (which is there God given right) they are labeled hooligans, terrorists, fascists, racists etc and all boxed in by the Neo Liberal social conditioning?
Well why then you assume that maybe without being in a conspiracy box the police are deliberately being recruited to have a lack of knowledge, to jump at orders as given without any questions asked?
Also the whole standard of education has diminished over the period of Neo Liberal rule causing even more decay in social communities adding to high crime rate.
You don’t need a degree in Sociology of Psychology to see this is occurring in Hungary, and behind much of your comments you attempt to generalize.
Hungary needs radical change, people aren’t as naïve here as in Australia, from my experience I have seen people more aware of the conditioning the government attempt to force upon them in Hungary. So please realize that the current situation Hungarians are living in is radical, so we require radical changes to fix the decay the politicians have committed in the last 20 years. I hope you really try and understand.
I read earlier comments you wrote and there appears to parts of Australian politics not as straight forward as you assume, Hungarian politics is very different to Australia.
Law: If I were to write everything of my thoughts and experiences of working with the Hungarian cops, it would get even more boring and would go on and on and on. Does that mean I know everything about the entire existence of the Rendorseg? Of course not.I don’t really know why you took a contrary tone in your post (as it seemed to me) as ultimately, I think a lot of what I say agrees with what you said anyway.
I don’t think calling me naive about politics or telling me that you don’t need a degree to have an opinion is all that helpful and seems to be more about provocation.I just know what I know and what I think.If I should come to a point where I think I am wrong, I’ll change.So far though, I’m not seeing a lot that convinces me that I should be changing direction.I think I should also clarify that to me the word ‘politics’ doesn’t only describe the acts of politicians or the outworking of policy.Politics is a fundamental aspect of society of any kind and so I approach the subject from the view of functions of power.As to conspiracies, well, as I said, I’m sure they exist, and I’m sure there is some element as I mentioned that favours the idea that minimal cognitive instruction makes for a more controllable workforce.Not all conspiracies are conscious, or even deliberate but come about through an environment of equal greed among competitors and the realisation that undercutting the competition too much cuts profits and draws attention.
I thought I made it clear that I thought police were undertrained and under-educated especially in cognitive skills and that this suits the ‘powers that be’.I also think it puts all of the blame for public dissatisfaction on the individual officers on the beat rather than where it should be.I think that without adequate training, officers are vulnerable to become corrupt themselves as the institutional culture favours those who play along.I still think the whole neo-liberal thing is itself a huge and problematic generalisation, so I don’t really know what you’re trying to achieve by saying I wasn’t specific enough. re: my previous post about who I would vote for.Finally, Zsuzsa asked me for my reflections on my experience and so I gave them.If what I experienced didn’t suit your world view, well, such is life.I didn’t write my thoughts with an agenda, I just wrote what came to my mind. …and for the record and to answer a pseudo accusation from a while ago, I have never taken any kind of ‘incentive’ in return for compliance.I am fiercely and consciensciously ethical in all of my behaviours and have more than once paid the price for that.If you want to push buttons, that’s a good one because I resent the implication that I would further my own ambitions at the expense of anyone.On the contrary, I have devoted my life to trying to improve human rights and increasing the accountability of institutions.
While I think of it, I am also very critical of general voter apathy and ignorance in Australia and I always tell my students that part of their civic duty is to learn as much as possible about the politics of the country and to develop their own opinions…even if it disagrees with my personal view.I wouldn’t use the term ‘naive’ to describe either Australians or Hungarians…I would say that Hungarians are desperately unhappy and disillusioned and more cynical, but being more cynical doesn’t make one more ‘right’. You can still be cynical and misled, or cynical and ignorant..etc. I just think that Hungarians are people, and that Austrlalians are people and they act and react in ways that are particular to the social environment they exist within.
Law, I actually do think I understand your sense of identification with Hungary and I really am genuinely happy for you that as a person you have found a place you feel as ‘home’.Of course you are entitled to your view, but I still feel compelled to remind you that you don’t speak for everyone and that other views are just as legitimate as yours.Remember that not everyone has had your life experience and can come to alternative points of view that are equally justifiable.You don’t need to be antagonistic towards me because I am not your enemy.I’m just a fellow poster on a Hungarian politics forum. I’m not a ‘neo-liberal’, I’m a human being doing my best to do what I think is right in a world full of inequality and disadvantage.
Law…I forgot to mention that yes, I did also recognise that the same communists are still in power in the police force, and over the past year and a half that I’ve been posting here, have often expressed my feelings about the reality that the same communists are still in control of the country.Actually, I was just talking to my wife tonight (yes, we were married last Friday) about how odd it seems that after the regime change, the communist party was back in power in only four years.I believe I also recently expressed my concern and surprise at my experience of standing at the memorial plaque in front of the house of parliament reading the words about the need to not allow the criminals of the old regime to retain their power and assets, and yet, not just a few hundred metres away, the very same people were standing in the chamber.
What else do you want?
Bobscountrybunker to Vandorlo:
“If you just showed your true colours and attempted to make a positive case for voting Fidesz, people here might actually respect you. Me included. But every post is always just paper thin attack piece against Jobbik, with “cultural cleansing” and other such nonsense.”
Bob, you are mistaken if you think that Vandorlo is for Fidesz. He is not for Fidesz but for the Communist murderers and thieves of MSZP/SZDSZ. If you followed some of the Hungarian lists, you would have noticed that one of the favorite tricks of Communist MSZP/SZDSZ provocateurs is to talk filth about Fidesz and then talk filth about Jobbik. Their goal is to turn the election contests into a contest between Fidesz and Jobbik but they will not succeed. The Hungarian electorate is a lot more sophisticated today than they were a few years ago.
There are problems with some Fidesz leaders, mostly Orban and Kover having some Communist history but the Fidesz supporters are patriotic Hungarians, the same as Jobbik supporters.
The surveys showed Jobbik below 5% before the EP election but Jobbik got 15%. Contrary to the phony surveys, I expect Jobbik to get ate least 15% but would not be surprised if Jobbik got 25%. The Communist MSZP will probably get a lot less than what the surveys show.
Fidesz will win in 2010 and in spite of my reservations about Orban and Kover, I expect no more of the Communist terrorist actions directed at the Magyar Garda. I also expect cooperation between Fidesz and Jobbik where 2/3 is needed to make real changes to the Constitution and to hold to account those who destroyed Hungary these past eight years. This is what the Communists are afraid of because they know that they can be and should be held accountable for their criminal and treasonous actions.
@Mark: Ok, I admit it all. How could I not? My evil scheme scuppered by your brilliant technical analysis and insight. Bobs… you really have found the perfect partner for your exalted disquisitions. Most humbling.
Hi Cinaed
All well! Congratulations! Sleep tight!
@Mark
Mark I agree very much with a lot of what you say. And dearly wish that the predicitions in your last two paragraphs come about.
But I must take issue with your impression of Vándroló, I have had the opportunity of reading his submissions very closely, particularly at another blog: Hungarian Spectrum.
This blog is run by a Dr Balogh who does a very subtle line in presenting MSZP propaganda as if it were a neutral/liberal analysis of Hungarian issues. Nobody has been able to so innocently and skillfully point out Dr Balogh’s inconsistencies, spouting about corruption in Fidesz etc. while deliberately turning a blind eye to massive examples by the MSZP for example; than our boy Vándorló.
So though his political perceptiveness may in truth be quite crude, his political personality is, I suspect, a little more complex.
Hi bobscountrybunker
You hit the nail on the head, Vandorloo is a sinister character trying to appear neutral definitely a Neo Liberal supporter out to sabotage any Hungarian truths. He appears to be a chameleon and will change sides and use any party who is in power, two faced bitch he represents, but this is expected from his type, throughout history his type has changed religions and names just to get into positions of power, a man with no honor just greed, quickest person to stab you in the back. This is my quick summary of his character Vandorlooooooooooooo is rotten to the core.
@Law: How gauche! I’m not sinister, I’m right-handed (though I do fight southpaw).
You want a shot at the Title?
@Law: Bless you! Why the move back to your old name?
Is that voice more dominant today?
Look up origin of the meaning of ‘sinister’ and if
you know any French the pun on ‘gauche’ will be
clear too.
You know where i am come and get me, I’m always ready
@Law: You’re an ape. How can you try to pretend to
anything else? Language is just a thin veneer
painted onto you. You were saying about *me* being
sinister? In the schools I went boxing was a sport,
clearly separated from lunchtime debating. I take it
you Jobbiks can’t tell the difference?
Children, Children!
Your giving Mummy a headache! Stop pissing in the corner or you’ll both get a time out. Now, what do you want Santa to bring you for Christmas?
@Mark “The Hungarian electorate is a lot more
sophisticated today than they were a few years ago.”
Wow, anyone who believes that cannot be debated
with. If the Hungarian electorate were in any way
sophisticated they would not elect Fidesz back into
power next year. It’s not like Fidesz didn’t already
have a chance to prove themselves.
@Benny the dwarf: “Wow, anyone who believes that cannot be debated with.”
It is good that you recognize your limitations and your inability to debate the rapidly changing Hungarian political landscape.
Vona said, very aptly that 2/3 of Hungarians are Jobbik supporters but they do not know it yet. I am not a Fidesz supporter but consider them far better than the current Communist mafia in power. The Communists trying to blame the destruction of Hungary on Fidesz while Fidesz had nothing to say about running the country for the past eight years is not working.
If Fidesz does well during the next four years and they are serious about holding the criminals accountable then Jobbik will not gain much from 2010 to 2014.
The 1990 election was dominated by MDF, 24.7% with Fidesz way down, 8.9%.
The Communist MSZP won in 1994 with the near destruction of MDF
Fidesz won the 1998 election, becoming a major force in a few years.
In 2002, the Communists returned to power but Fidesz remained a major force.
In 2006, the Communists managed to win but many people believe that the Communists stole the election using methods reminiscent of Rakosi vote fixing.
One thing is certain in Hungarian politics are that nothing is certain. If Fidesz fails to deliver, I see a huge surge in Jobbik’s popularity and a Jobbik government in 2014. That is why the Communists are afraid and that is why the smear campaign of lies and distortions. They know that with Jobbik in power, the criminals will be held to account.
@Mark, indeed the Hungarian electorate are about
as sophisticated as a seed potato, and I would
like to quote you as an example.
However
incompetent MSZP are, they are not communists, as
you repeatedly label them. Descended from the old
communist party indeed, but their policies are not
communist. (Of course if you are of the ilk that
blindly equates socialism with communism then this
is a distinction which you will ignore).
Having
said that, your analysis is interesting. Myself, I
expect Fidesz to come to power, implement some
policies that look good for a while, and after a
few years everyone will realise they are no better
than MSZP. And at that point it will start to get
interesting. Where will the disillusioned
electorate go next? Unfortunately the only party
offering any third path right now is indeed
Jobbik, there is no sign of a centrist party
emerging.
Now, if the Hungarian electorate was
actually sophisticated, a centrist party would
emerge without the baggage of the past (MSZP,
Fidesz and Jobbik all bring significant baggage
with them, in different ways) to offer some hope
of a bright future for Hungary. This is what has
happened in many other countries where the
electorate became disillusioned with the policies
and record of the existing parties. Right now I
don’t see sign of that happening here, quite the
opposite with the far right taking over.
Don’t worry yourself Benny. The third choice Jobbik
would be for the majority of the people in Hungary
so at last we have hope left, you speak as if Jobbik
have been in government, there not extreme radical
right as you may have been exposed to by the trashy
media. I do hope at last that Jobbik will have the
opportunity to represent the Hungarians interests
instead of Foreign examples of government. Jobbik
have the way the middle way for better Hungary not
long now and you will see the policies 16th January
2010
@Law: Thanks for making me laugh tonight after a hard day. You write about Jobbik:
“there not extreme radical right as you may have been exposed to by the trashy media.”
Now from Jobbik.com we get:
The AENM was formed on the 24th October 2009 in Budapest, at the 6th Jobbik party congress. Its founder members being Jobbik, The Movement for a Better Hungary (Hungary), the Front National (France), Fiamma Tricolore (Italy), the National Democrats (Sweden) and the National Front (Belgium).
During a Press Conference held yesterday at the European Parliament in Brussels, the Chairman of the British National Party, Nick Griffin, confirmed his party’s intention to join the pan-European alliance founded in Hungary last month.
Strange bedfellows… These guys are NOT extreme radical right wing ?
Has the French Front National suddenly turned into a centrist party ?
@Law.
Sort your formatting out. Only two posters on this thread have the same wonky formatting probelm on their posts; you and “Danko Bacsi”. Using the same computer are you?
My brother is a fool. He didn’t notice that Benny the dwarf’s post was also formatted weirdly. Therefore it can’t be a conspiracy, just a journalistic trend.
That is why the Communists are afraid and that is why the smear campaign of lies and distortions. They know that with Jobbik in power, the criminals will be held to account.
Mark at December 10, 2009 6:19 PM
—
I suppose that is what you can see from the Texas horizon, sounds more like a mantra though.
Personally I think everyone was more afraid around 1990 what would happen then now.
The most frighten guys seem to be you on the other side of the pond.
@ Chameleon & bro;
The same could be said for me, Cinead, Viking, Vandor, Olga etc, etc, etc,..Your right, it’s all me! Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!!!!!!
@Chameleon Watcher: The formatting problems/eccentricities are due to two things:
1. Hidden characters in text that is cut and pasted from elsewhere, that the user doesn’t see, but the computer/server converts into line-breaks, spaces, bold, italics etc… This can be controlled by the user, but would take effort (just best not to cut and paste instead of actually writing something yourself, too)
2. The browser you use. Write an entry using Google’s chrome and you get line breaks similar to Benny a manó. Slightly different formatting is afforded by other browsers. This largely can’t be controlled by the user, without changing agent (browser).
Vandorló is on the money. I know the appearance
sucks but I likes Chrome.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of
those who do evil, but because of those who look
on and do nothing.”- Einstein
Brazilian patriots demonstrated in Brasilia, in
front of the Hungarian embassy demanding the
release of György Budaházy and all political
prisoners. In the mean time, they sent the
following message to their Hungarian brothers and
sisters.
“Persevere and fight your struggle to the end;
never forget the glory of your country, your
tradition and historical Hungary, as opposed to
liberalism and the new world order”.
Brazilian society is also gripped by violence
tacitly supported by the government led by the
freemason president Lula. Hungarian Ambiance
@Lawless:
So they have Nazis is Brazil ? Nice to know – or are they Hungarian Nazis who emigrated there ?
There are no Nazis in Brazil or Hungary. If you want to see Nazis, real mean, racist, genocidal Nazis, you need to visit your relatives in Nazi Israel.
Checking the picture one can see that the guy to the right would definitely have emigrated from Hungary asap, given the fact he is black and in Hungary the people that support Budahazy would have harassed him.
To ‘prove the point’ of Brazilian State-sponsored violence ShitAmbiance is showing a video in *Spanish* showing a terrible attack in *Spain*.
Obviously the have no cameras in Brazil.
And they do speak Portuguese as the official European language.
Normally you would think that Brazil would get plus-points in the Jobbik-world for not following the US-lead in everything, but those 6 people demonstrating for Budahazy is obviously more important.