Unlike many people, I don’t find the largely ceremonial state presidencies in countries like Hungary to be inherently silly. Of course I’d rather dispense entirely with all the protocol duties that such presidents spend much of their time engaged in, hocus-pocus like showing around the Crown Prince of Norway (above) and other epic time-wasting that mostly just serves to inflate the egos of the political class. But I do think there is a potentially valuable role to be played by the holder of such an office, even if their only real power is the ability to speak frankly and be heard on issues that normal politicians choose to ignore or actively cover-up. What a shame, then, that current Hungarian President László Sólyom is such an unmitigated disaster.
As you may have already heard, over the weekend Sólyom spoke out on the recent joint statement on Hungary’s corruption problem put out by several foreign embassies about Hungary’s problem with corruption, calling the communiqué “offensive.” Sólyom’s main beef with the statement was apparently that corruption is not so bad in Hungary that any foreign country has the right to actually draw attention to it.
While this might make some sense in general, it is nothing short of ludicrous given the timing of Sólyom’s statement, which came just a day after executives of both the Budapest Airport and the capital’s transport company were arrested on corruption charges, a few days after the deputy head of the state’s asset management arm stepped down after being given a criminal conviction, and overall right in the middle of an avalanche of revelations about official corruption. (To see these and other such stories, consult the “corruption” story tag here on Politics.hu and the similarly well-fed section over on Realdeal.hu.)
More to the point, it’s hard to think of an issue that is of more importance to Hungary today than corruption and lawlessness, and one better suited to the job of someone who is supposed to be acting as the conscience of the nation. Just imagine how different Hungary might be if Sólyom had spent the last four plus years on the national “bully pulpit” cajoling both politicians and everyday citizens to resist the temptation to cheat the state and their fellow citizens, and to do their part to bring to justice those who don’t. But apparently he doesn’t think that the reflexive cheating and lawbreaking that contaminates every corner of Hungarian life – from graft-grabbing government officials to tax-dodging workers to exam-buying students – is worth bothering himself with.
Meanwhile, when Sólyom has chosen to come down from his perch as ribbon-cutter-in-chief he has tended to make an ass out of himself, and of the country for which he is supposed to act as the human embodiment of. His big show of not shaking the hands of former communists when handing over medals granted them by the government is a classic cop-out. (If they are so bad, resign rather than have the medal given in your name.) Ditto his vague patronage of efforts by so-called “environmentalists” to block any attempt to build the radar station Hungary is obliged to construct as a member of NATO. (If you want Hungary out of NATO then have the stones to say it.) And as for his dust-ups with the governments of Romania and Slovakia, which both moved to hinder him from visiting ethnic Hungarian areas of those countries, they mostly just made him, and Hungary, look childish and weak.
Essentially, what Sólyom has done is reinforce the Hungarian habit of grumbling about harsh realities without offering any realistic or concrete alternatives, and then backing down before the grumbling results in any actual consequences.
Speaking of concrete alternatives, just compare Sólyom’s record with those of the past two presidents of the Czech Republic. While Václav Havel and Václav Klaus (above, with Sóylom) have little in common politically – they were always dire enemies, actually – both will go down as visionaries unafraid of taking a stand and then taking it to the limit, no matter how unpopular or inconvenient. Compared to them, Sólyom is so small-time, muddle-headed and essentially gutless it makes me wince for this potentially great country.
Hungary deserves much better. Hopefully next year, when he is up for “re-election”, it will get it. And if that happens, any diplomats from the countries that signed the statement on corruption might follow Sólyom’s own example by declining to shake his hand on the way out.
That was a real “tour de force” Erik – Congratulations, you’r absolutely correct!
A well-written article and close to the kind of thing I always hope to see here. Clear, concise, and with no ambiguity, it suffers only from a very slight comedic and personal bent, when I felt dead-pan seriousness was what it deserved. But then, I’ve always wondered if politics.hu was intended to be serious or humorous, so maybe the fault is mine.
This does not, however, detract from the article’s substance, which gets to the heart of perhaps Hungary’s greatest, most persistent and immediate problem – corruption. I’ve never though of Sólyom as corrupt, but this article certainly evidences his lack of morality and substance. Hungary does deserve better, but from where will it come? I would have been very interested to hear suggestions from the author.
The Author supports the Gypsy Angels!
@Erik
“Essentially, what Sólyom has done is reinforce the Hungarian habit of grumbling about harsh realities without offering any realistic or concrete alternatives, and then backing down before the grumbling results in any actual consequences.”
Spot on!
Have you seen this?
IHMTS Regime change? …not really.
On the basis of what you say here, I think what they call this viedo’s “sting in the tail” will appeal to you.
The point being made is that this habit of “cheating the system” is an inheritance from pre-1989. And why should we be shocked at this fact, if the political establishment too has remained virtually unchanged: the two tendecies have mutually reinforced each other?
Another telling difference bewteen the Czech Republic and Hungary, is whereas the Commies steered the round table talks, tailored the regime change, and profited most from it: MSZMP became MSZP.
Conversely: in the Czech Republic they were deliberately and intentionally crowbarred out of politics and public life, and are just a rump political force in their parliament.
Your broad observation is correct: but it has a lot more to do with things other than mere personalities. The problem is systemic.
But what changes the system? One of the few hopes given the polarization here has to be somebody in some office who’s outside and elevated – like the President. He can act as the moral compass guiding the population towards a more representative government and political system. So, to Erik’s point – this is the loss for the country in the guise of not having the stomach to see through an agenda.
But as I recall, Solyom is selected by Parliament, if I’m right, what can we expect?
This whole response by Hungary’s president is typical Hungarian,…don’t take the crticicism for as helpfulness, but rather stay proudly defensive. The fish stinks from the head.
Well done Erik. A tour de force item which I applaud and endorse. Politics.Hu is an excellent site and I enjoy posting and reading the articles.
It is both serious and light-hearted which is a good mix and attracts a host of varied responses.
Sólyom was in Korea recently trying to drum up trade.
It seems Hungary has a glut of over-qualified and under-employed scientists which the Koreans are coveting. They want them for their research
and development programs. The Koreans then, with the help of these scientists, manufacture goods that are imported to Hungary at much higher prices than the homegrown versions would have been.
Speculation , yes. But the Koreans are no fools?
Sharp, accurate analysis all the way to the last paragraph: “Hungary deserves much better.”
IMHO, Hungary deserves precisely what it’s got. Hungary deserves Solyom, Gyurcsany, Orban, Morvai, Vona and the rest.
Good luck you all:
@Erik: One of the reasons Sólyom’s ‘small-time, muddle-headed and gutless’is that he won’t say publicly what NATO and the so called ‘radar stations’ really are. He should also say, publicly, that by participating in America’s in your face nuclear aggression toward Russia we’ll become, just like Italy and Turkey, a nuclear target. I also agree that Klaus is cool but Havel? He’s been a CIA agent since God knows when, recruited by Pavel Tigrid, recruiting Petr “Peter” Kolar who was trained at Princeton (a. k. a. the ‘CIA university’) before Kolar became Czech ambassador to Washington. And, have you seen or at least read any of his plays? OMG… such complete trash…
@Pávaszem: You could be on to something there! But have you considered that Sólyom’s “in your face” stance towards the Slovaks and Romanians is making Hungary a target of those two countries, which are more likely to invade Hungary than the Russians are to nuke a piddling anti-aircraft radar array pointing south from Pécs? You’re right about Havel being a CIA agent, though – and he was invaluable in helping us working out the deal with the Mossad to jointly recruit Morvai, Vona and Budaházy.
@Erik
You appear to twist words to smear people who are fighting to expose the corruption by the ex Commies here in Hungary and rest of Europe, at no time have you ever been patriotic or stood by anyone that defends Hungarians. All your fable stories on this site are biased towards Neo Liberal views that are destroying Hungarian people and culture. You are a creepy untrustworthy traitor, even if you may hold a Hungarian citizenship it’s not worth a pinch of shit.
@Law and Pavaszem and so on ad nauseam:
So you are the “REAL HUNGARIAN PATRIOTS” here ?
People who don’t know much about the real world except their jobo insults – you’re really psychotic – the good thing is, everybody who stumbles on this site immediately recognises you for what you are by your crazy rantings.
The jobbik leadership might get angry at you for giving that movement a really bad name…
@ Erik ,
I know you are a Communist,Jewish,Roma, when you are not busy being a ” creepy untrustworthy traitor”
All these minor details notwithstanding, I really look forward to reading your comments
Being my curious self: – How did you get involved with this website? Is there a link where I could find out this information?
Thank God for Farkas Laszlo – I believe he is the only Hungarian on this website who is the actual voice for “real Hungarians” I believe he really represents the majority who does not speak English.
My other hope is that opinions expressed by Vandorlo, Viking, Wolfi, Cinead are also the opinions of the Hungarian majority.
@olga
“My other hope is that opinions expressed by Vandorlo, Viking, Wolfi, Cinead are also the opinions of the Hungarian majority.”
Of the four you cited, three has self-identified as not being Hungarians. I have no idea about Vandorlo but I can assure you that his views do not represent “the opinions of the Hungarian majority”. If that were true, the Communist MSZP/SZDSZ’s support would not be around 10% but well above 50%.
There is a very good chance that Jobbik will get more votes than MSZP. How does that fit with your opinion about these representing the majority of Hungarians?
@ Mark
Hungary is a Democracy now – People have a choice and I respect the electoral process whether I like the outcome or not.
My party (Liberal) did not in win in 2006 in 2006 after being in power for 13 years. The Conservatives ran an honest campaign, the people have spoken and that’s that. For now.
So if the average Hungarian hates the MSZP then s/he ought not vote for the party. I just hope people are not totally apathetic and don’t bother voting at all.
I only know 3 Hungarians living there (one is an American who returned) and 3 people’s opinions are not exactly “accurate statistics”
Not one of the 3 is going to vote and have very low opinions of all politicians in Hungary. They consider JOBBIK crazy but don’t forget, they are my friends thus it’s no surprise. What shocked me was the apathy. No excuse in my books.
You know the over used saying, “people deserve the government they get” – maybe there is truth to that
Do you think the US deserved Bush? – Personally I don’t think so. If they had a Republican President, I wish they had someone like McCain all those years but I know that was not an option.
@olga: Well, I’m running a really high fever right
now (literally) so I don’t have the strength to lay
it all out. But it’s nothing too unusual, aside from
a lot of travel early on in my life during which I
developed an ability to be comfortable in different
places, and among different people. And vis-a-vis
politics, my bottom line is that a person’s politics
generally have zero to do with whether they are a
good person or a wretch…
@ Erik
Get well soon – hot tea with rum is the cure all.
And that’s “the truth”
When you get better, maybe you could elaborate on
you statement “a person’s politics
generally have zero to do with whether they are a
good person or a wretch…”
What happens when people embrace political ideologies that want to cause harm to others?
Do you remember the Charles de Gaulle quote?
“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.”
Sad about the lack of patriots around here. In fact the only patriots are the Non-Hungarians
Take care – drink rum (skip tea)
@Erik:
Best wishes from me too!
Of course in Hungary in this case you have to drink some real palinka (51% has my neighbour’s szilva), but you know that already, I’m sure.
We really need you and your site, so get well soon.
Wolfi and Olga you crazy nutters you want to kill
the poor guy? The last thing he needs is friggen
alcohol.
@Law:
That RightWinging jobos have no sense of humour is a wellknown fact – that you don’t understand a joke, well…
Of course Erik is old enough to know what’s good for him…
Actually, boil red wine with a cinnamon stick in it, warm up a blanket in the dryer. Wrap yourself up, drink the wine and go to bed.
@ Law;
There is no such thing as an inappropriate time for alcohol. Just ask my liver!
Z
Another effective remedy to cure common fever would
be to boil a cup of water. Add 1 tsp of turmeric
powder, some ginger pieces, onion pieces, lemon
grass, ½ a tsp of black pepper and 5-6 basil leaves.
Intake this mixture three times a day to treat
common fever.
If that wont cure you nothing will
@ Law
I was given an offer I could not refuse. If I could poison Erik, I would get a free lifetime membership in the JOBBIK party , 3 black Donna Karan blouses and a free tattoo on my forehead saying “Patriot”
Thanks for ruining my opportunity
@Olga
You obviously have the connection and the background
to carry out this kind of activity. I have no energy
to waste on loser like yourself, so go crawl back
under the rock you came from.
@ Law;
Are you serious? Do you actually drink that concoction? I would rather eat snot!
Z
@Erik: “have you considered that Sólyom’s ‘in your face’ stance towards the Slovaks and Romanians” I have and I could strangle him for it. ( Meg tudnám fojtani egy kanál vízben… ) Like we both said, he is an incompetent, spineless fuck. “which are more likely to invade Hungary than the Russians” You are kidding, right? Pulling my leg… “a piddling anti-aircraft radar array pointing south from Pécs?” 1. It ( whatever it actually will be ) hasn’t even been built yet. 2. What do we need it for? And 3. hasn’t brother Hussein allegedly axed the entire program to provoke a nuclear war (that wouldn’t have been a first for Whoreland)? “You’re right about Havel being a CIA agent, though – and he was invaluable in helping us working out the deal with the Mossad to jointly recruit Morvai, Vona and Budaházy.” Which is why we all love him and throw him all that CASH… I mean, it couldn’t be his plays, right? “a lot of travel… during which I developed an ability to be comfortable in different places, and among different people… “ A Quiet American?
@Ольга: “Farkas Laszlo… represents the majority who does not speak English” WOW, he sure fooled me! Is Hungarian this close to English?
@Ольга, continued: “opinions expressed by Vandorlo, Viking, Wolfi, Cinead are also the opinions of the Hungarian majority…” Yes comrade Ольга, these folks are all dyed-in-the-wool all Magyars! Especially the Grenzdebil. Did you know that he is a poet and a composer too? Have you heard his Magnum Opus? “Húzta, de vonta, de nem szólt spricni, hollári hollári hó. Mert a spricnibe egy grósz krumpli, hollári hollári hó… Budakeszin kinyitott a tsárda, hollári hollári hó. Kitűzom az nemzeti kokárda, hollári hollári hó. Az ki nem tud ungarisch sprecholni, hollári hollári hó. Azt ki fogjuk hózentrógerolni, hollári hollári hó… http://kollegalitas.uw.hu/nota/brennbergi_nota.html Isn’t it LOVELY? “What shocked me was the apathy. No excuse in my books” Then you could perhaps explain to us ignorant peasants how Hungarian ‘elections’ actually work? “I hope you do not deny the Holocaust” How could anyone? It was the worst soap I ever saw! You can still see it on YouTube http://bit.ly/5jNScQ if you want to laugh your ass off…
@ Pavaszem
I don’t have Cinead’s patience to actually respond to personal attacks. If you want to call me the blonde Comrade Olga and spell the name with Russian letters – go for it.
I am not sure why you misunderstood 3 of my statements but as I thought the ideas I tried to express were clear. If not, let me clarify:
1. “ Farkas Laszlo… represents the majority who does not speak English” WOW, he sure fooled me! Is Hungarian this close to English?” – I jumped the crazy conclusion that Hungarians who do not speak or write English would not be reading this website, nor would they be posting opinions. FL speak and writes English. Therefore he is able to read the website and post. I was hoping that the majority of Hungarians share his views but since they lack the English language skills, I am not able to read their opinions. (please ask me to clarify if this is still unclear)
2. “opinions expressed by Vandorlo, Viking, Wolfi, Cinead are also the opinions of the Hungarian majority. – Yes comrade Ольга, these folks are all dyed-in-the-wool all Magyars “ -They don’t pretend to be Magyars. They live in Hungary full time or part time and contribute to its economy thus the political system has an impact on their daily lives. They all posted details about their personal lives so it’s clear to everyone they are not Magyars nor living in another country. They are Liberals in the
Western definition . cont….
My statement was a hope that Hungarian people, living in Hungary, not speaking the English language share their Liberal views. (please ask me to clarify if this is still unclear)
3 . “Then you could perhaps explain to us ignorant peasants how Hungarian ‘elections’ actually work? – “ First of all, I would never call you an ignorant peasant. – I researched how elections work a long time ago. The two phases seem very complicated. My point about the election was that I believe everyone should vote ( you do agree that voting is part of the electoral process?) and my 3 Hungarian friends had no intentions to do that.
How can anyone complain about election results if they don’t bother to vote?
BTW, I tried to understand the philosophy of each political party until I found out the number of actual parties ; then I gave up – here is the link I gave up on. I basically try to understand FIDESZ and MSZP – Jobbik is easy to understand.
http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/flags/hu%7D.html
I AM the only real Hungarian Patriot!!! I like my beer cold and my women hot!!! So, having gotten the important things out of the way, let’s just say that us Magyars need a better understanding of who we are…our dependance on the frailties of government to save us is still just a fall out from the former communist regime. Once we can understand that all politics is local and generate a movement that supports the Hungarian peoples collective consciousness then we can hope to achieve some semblance of proper government. Only Farkas Laslo has a clue…everything else is just an opinion.
Please do not give me that about foreigners have rights to tell Hungarians who to elect and how to govern their country. They do not contribute to Hungarian society. They feed off a poor and exploited country and its people while cozying up to the Communist MSZP/SZDSZ.
Sándor Petőfi said it best to foreign invaders and his words are as good today as they were in 1848:
Mit nem beszél az a német…
http://hu.wikisource.org/wiki/Mit_nem_besz%C3%A9l_az_a_n%C3%A9met…
Well said, Attila. FL is indeed a sage and knows the things that are required to get Hungary
back on its feet after 20 years of mismanagement.
But, he is only one man, and retired I think? Although he does offer his own brand of encouragement and expertise free of charge on this site.
I wanted to ask Farkas Laszlo something else but read your comments and thought endorsement was more important. I will follow with a separate posting.
cont’d
Farkas Laslo.
What’s this all about and how does it impact on society and politics today?
‘In the philosophy of mind, idealism is contrasted with materialism, in which the ultimate nature of reality is based on physical substances. Idealism and materialism are both theories of monism as opposed to dualism and pluralism. Idealism sometimes refers to a tradition in thought that represents things of a perfect form, as in the fields of ethics, morality, aesthetics, and value. In this way, it represents a human perfect being or circumstance. In the ancient philosophy of the Vedas, idealism refers to the dynamic consciousness of living beings that emanates from the divine cosmic source.[citation needed] In much the same way, idealism has spread throughout the world. Individual societies have inspired and grown their own specific set of idealism, but they all have these generalities in common.
Idealism is a philosophical movement in Western thought, and names a number of philosophical positions with sometimes quite different tendencies and implications in politics and ethics, for instance; although in general, at least in popular culture, philosophical idealism is associated with Plato and the school of platonism.’
Heavy stuff I know. As a non-sequitur: I originally wanted to ask if you knew anything about Al Jolson, and Larry Parks who played him in the original film -not the remake?
Please do not give me that about foreigners have rights to tell Hungarians who to elect and how to govern their country. They do not contribute to Hungarian society. They feed off a poor and exploited country and its people while cozying up to the Communist MSZP/SZDSZ
Mark at December 10, 2009 6:37 PM
—
No, I do not:
1) I live and pay taxes here, so I do have the right to make my opinion heard.
-
2) I actually work for companies outside Hungary, invoice them via my Hungarian companies and therefore create wealth in Hungary.
-
3) And what are you doing in the US?
What rights do you have to involve in US politics?
What right has a poor Hungarian immigrant like you to be a member in the Proud US NRA?
Well, you are just a foreigner…
-
4) Were not the invading Magyars just ‘invaders’ and took control over the population that was already here?
Kedves Sandor,
You are most kind. I draw my understanding not just from the Hungarian historical experience, but the experiences of many other nations which I have had a chance to visit. Hungary’s problems with politcal and economic development are not that unique, and in fact share some similiarities with the experience of other nations. Nations are like certain people; some rise above their hindrances and limitations, while some don’t and continue to stagnate or go downward. Like individuals, sometimes a country has to “hit bottom” before a real process of recovery can come about. In the tineline of a nation, that can mean decades or even generations.
About your quote. I believe that Platonic ideals are actually metaphysical in nature, or manifestations of metaphysical forces operating in our world. As such, Platonism is hard to intelligibly translate into a modern language, simply because the mentality of modern day people is so different from where Plato and his disciples were coming from. One senses the great depth of a Plotinus, but at the same time it is very difficult to really understand him. For that, one would need more than just the ability to read him.
To Sandor, cont.
You ask me about the dichotomy of idealism vs. materialism, and how it affects society and politics. Both have their pitfalls, especially the former. In my life I have met many idealistic people, who believed in, or advocated things that had little chance of being enacted in real life. Idealists are often believers and dreamers, lacking a practical understanding of how and why the world is as it is, as well as how much change it can really stand. Such people can seldom successfully run a little store or business, much less a country. They go through life fixated on what ought to be, rather than what is or what is realistically possible.
Materialism and greed go together. That is the sort of thing that needs a constructive outlet. Marxism denied that individual greed can serve any social purpose. What Marxism couln’t do, was stamp out this tendency in human nature. Greed continued in the “workers’ paradise”, but there was no constructive outlet for it under that economic system.
I appear on this website as a new wave Hungarian patriot, who is driven by pragmatism and realism. Nor am I here to be a political partisan. I reach out to any party and invite them to make some of my past suggestions their own, as most of them are of a non-partisan nature. There will have to be self-empowerment before we can talk about it collectively. I especially ask that my compatriots not fear a capitalist world, but instead learn to make it work for them.
Dear Sandor,
Great you ask about anything pertaining to classic film, and there I am always glad to oblige! I love history, and very old movies are historical cultural artefacts.
Jolson was a vaudeville(Revü,kabaré in Hungarian) star who transitioned to film. He is best remembered today for his appearance in the technical landmark film “The Jazz Singer”(1927), which was the first full length feature to have voice and film synchronised. It was quite a sensation when it came out, and caused an immediate revolution in Hollywood. (One of the casualties of the sound revolution was the career of Hungarian silent star Vilma Bánky. When she appeared in a couple of sound films, American audiences didn’t like her thick Hungarian accent. I will do a birthday commemoration to Vilma on January 9, as part of my ongoing celebration of Hungarians in Hollywood project!)
Today the “Jazz Singer” appears primitive and dated, as does Jolson. It is for the most part a silent drama, although with recorded music score. The voice and singing parts amount to only a small portion of the film. The system was the playing of a giant phonograph record, 1 meter in diameter, with the film. Whenever the record skipped, or the film snagged, the two would go out of synch.
Jolson cont.
With the advent of sound, Hollywood desperately scoured the live stage for it’s dancing and singing stars. The camera however was not kind to many of them; by the time they made a name for themselves, they were rather middle aged and not very fresh looking. This was the case with Jolson.
The motion picture camera, especially at close range, feeds off of youthful looks and vitality, hence “box office appeal”.
Jolson is also not well remembered today, because his entertainment forte was performing in blackface, something that became offensive to blacks and so not “PC”. I don’t anticipate a Jolson revival in the future!
Jolson’s memory was revived in a couple of 1940′s films, featuring Larry Parks playing Jolson. “The Jolson Story”(1946) and “Jolson Sings Again” (1949).
There are a lot of clips from Jolson’s films on youtube, but none in their entirety. I did find the whole length of:
The Jolson Story (1946) part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC2TzcCKGyw
(In 13 parts) With Larry Parks.
and also check:
The Real Jolson Story Part 1 of 7 1986
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-Ac5dt-2mQ&feature=related
A nicely put together British documentary.
Have fun!
Laci
@Mark: “Petőfi… Mit nem beszél az a német” Mit nem beszélt az a Petrovics…
” They feed off a poor and exploited country …” Some of them don’t and those that don’t shouldn’t catch it from us… It wouldn’t be fair!
@BCO (Blonde Comrade Olga): Your wish is my command! “hope that Hungarian people, living in Hungary, not speaking the English language share their Liberal views” Why? “The two phases seem very complicated…” is the understatement of the century. They are actually incomprehensible. ” My point about the election was that I believe everyone should vote” Why? The results that are somehow produced don’t represent the popular will at all. They are at best an opinion poll usually ignored by the political caste that only needs it to create the impression that they have a mandate. “my 3 Hungarian friends had no intentions to do that.” Good. If no one voted, the scum balls that sell us out and suck our blood could no longer pretend that they rule by popular mandate. “How can anyone complain about election results if they don’t bother to vote?” What do ‘election results’ have to do with what people actually want? “Jobbik is easy to understand” Isn’t that refreshing?
Thanks a million Farkas László for the excellent information you provided on the entertainment, political, and philosophical front.
I believe Jolson was born in Lithuania?
Minstrelsy and “blacking up” as Jolson did were in vogue at the time.
George Gershwin wrote some songs for Jolson – ‘Swanee,’ I think is one is one of the more famous.
I have read your articles/suggestions in the past
on how you think Hungarians should go about improving the general situation here.
I hope you will continue in your efforts because many on these sites support you and believe that
you have the ideas and know-how that could bring success to this great country.
Best regards.
@ Pavaszem
Yes, it is refreshing the JOBBIK agenda is easy to understand – unfortunately the leaders forgot minor little details – like how exactly they are trying to do that.
I know you of all people have been let in on the secret. Please share just one little secret, and I’ll wait for the rest on Jan 16th
How will Hungary reclaim its pre-Trianon borders?
If there was a way to reclaim that, I would support the cause. However, it’s as likely to happen as a present or future government would give back the properties the Communists stole from people. It ain’t gonna happen. The logistics are impossible.
I met a man on a train in Hungary who said he was “Hungarian nobility” and is suing the government for a family castle – I wonder if he moved in yet.
Breathlessly awaiting your answer – Plan “A” (asking for it? Plan “B” if the answer is “NO”
Kedves Sandor,
Jolson was born in Lithuania. This being a political website, I think it appropriate to point out that the history of popular entertainment in America IS linked to European history. In those days, most of the nations of Europe were very very busy exporting not goods and services, but people! How many good, hardworking, beautiful and talented people left, because there was no political or economic order that gave them any hope for themselves and their children?! This has been going on for generations, and is going on even now. Known as the “brain drain”.
In the 19th and early 20th centuries, half of Sopron county was depleted by emmigration. American and South American firms would set up recruiting offices, offering the peasants who worked Eszterhazy’s estates a new start. Often a one way passage ticket was part of the deal. The wonder was not that any people took advantage, but that any people stayed behind!
Damn it we are still exporting people! When will it stop?! When we build a powerful economy, that’s when.
@FL:
The Brain Drain will go on as long as there are differences in Income and living between different parts of a country/a continent/the world…
I can also give some modern examples:
Many East Germans left in the last 20 years for West Germany (before that it was a bit more difficult, so only a few left: a collegue of mine told me he had studied physics only because he then could go to a congress in the west – at the first opportunity he “defected”).
A member of my wife’s family now is a professor at a US university – his younger children can’t speak Hungarian.
While working in an IT company I met people from Morocco, Hungary, India, Korea, etc all working for us or our customers like Lufthansa or German Telecom…
Today still it’s many a German’s dream to go to the USA for some years working for IBM or Mercedes – many don’t return.
I’m sure that even more Hungarians would take the same route, if foreign language knowledge were more common…
Hello wolfi,
It is the sad truth. Few nations can turn it around. Nowadays I hear about how some Indians and Chinese who emigrated to the US are going back, to take advantage of what they see as a more dynamically growing economy back home. That happens in only exceptional cases among nations; nations that are averaging 9% a year GDP growth, which is way above the global average.
Neither the Hungarian political class, nor the Hungarian public would have any clue as to how 9% a year GDP growth could be brought about. Such vibrant growth is outside of our experience.
The people who leave to work elsewhere, will for the most part be coming back only as visitors or tourists. For them to act otherwise, would require a phenomenal change at home.
Hi FL: I always find your writing interesting and informative. I wanted to contribute something to the ‘brain drain’ discussion in regard to Hungary. I apologise for the length of my next submission; it just kind of evolved into an essay. I hope you won’t find it boring though and will comment if you find it interesting or have questions.
There is no doubt that economic factors play a big part in the decisions of many to leave Hungary, and I agree that a stronger more vibrant economy would probably slow this down.I also believe, however, that there are strong social factors that also play a part.As you may be aware, like many other non-Hungarians who contribute to this site, my wife is Hungarian and we are now no longer living in Hungary.(I’m not going to wax lyrical about it, so don’t glaze over) Based on her experience, my own experience of living and working in Hungary, and on conversation I’ve had with numerous Hungarian expats since then, I think there are at least two more social factors that are worth mentioning. The first is the fierce isolationism and related hostility towards ‘outsiders’ and those who show an interest in the ‘outside world’, while the second is the appalling way in which many Hungarians treat each other…jealousy, spite, greed, and a desire to crush the weak or sensitive among them. While I write this, I am conscious of how it may be interpreted or misinterpreted, as the case may be, so all I can say is that I want to write as sensitively and objectively as possible and hope that people will read to the end before jumping to conclusions.
So, first of all, the issue of isolationism of Hungarians is something quite profound. I guess for me this is somewhat amplified as my personal background is from a geographically huge ‘nation of travellers’, and one which really is the proverbial melting pot. While in Miskolc, which is only some 60 something kilometres from the Slovakian border, I was amazed at how many people had never actually been outside Hungarian territory, and even more amazed at how many people were surprised at my surprise. It interested me enough that I did some reading into it and found that this is something of a tradition with various writers commenting on the tendency of Hungarians to prefer to remain closed off to those around them. (I’m not judging, just recognising the situation) In particular, I read a really interesting article written by a Hungarian economist (I think) in the post-Trianon period who commented on how although Hungary has great natural resources and things with which it could develop successful trade, the country was struggling economically partly because of the reluctance and sometimes downright refusal of Hungarians to deal with traders from other countries. In particular he bemoaned the loss of potential income for the ‘liquid gold’ of Hungarian wine. I also personally experienced a lot of resistance from Hungarians to listen to my suggestions for ways in which they could enhance their use of available resources and improve the delivery of education.
Ok, so first of all, this was in the police force and as I mentioned there is the ‘old guard’ attitude to deal with and second, I do recognise that there have probably been many ‘enlightened’ foreigners before me who have come in with ‘brilliant’ ideas of how everything can be done better…those things I don’t deny and I do understand some of the negative sentiments. However, when I considered that I had actually been invited to Hungary because of my expertise, I couldn’t help but feel frustrated when it seemed like I might as well have stayed home. What frustrated me the most though was when I saw this attitude extended not just to me, which I could kind of accept, but also to other Hungarians who themselves were trying very hard to make even modest reforms and who were doing their best to address the condescending attitude of backwardness that many foreign organisations feel towards Hungary in general. To me, justified as it may have been, I often felt very sad that Hungarians would ‘cut off their nose to spite their face’, and I came to understand why at some point many Hungarians who otherwise would love to stay in Hungary and pursue their careers, make the difficult and painful choice of leaving. I actually know quite a few people who were in this situation. Hard enough as it is to leave your homeland and go somewhere so fundamentally different, what makes it worse for many is the attitude of disdain and even hostility that Hungarians show for those who make this choice
An example of this was a work associate of mine who after informing her family of her intentions was treated as a traitor to her kind, and ultimately was given a ‘going away present’ of the lyrics of the Szozat with the section highlighted “To your homeland without fail, Be faithful, O Hungarian! It is your cradle and will your grave be, Which nurses, and will bury you. In the great world outside of here, There is no place for you, May fortune’s hand bless or beat you, Here you must live and die!”, along with a lecture of how leaving Hungary was tantamount to destroying the nation and betraying all other Hungarians. The effect of this is that this woman left Hungary and now feels very much unwelcome there; ultimately meaning it is unlikely she will go back. Considering that she has done quite well and received a lot of useful training, this seems like an awful waste. I’ve also seen this insularity in relation to attitudes towards education of Hungarians. This is certainly no comment on the intelligence of Hungarians, but the reality is that knowledge is being developed at breakneck speed all around the world, all of the time, but the preference of Hungarians to remain unlinked with the outside world means that as a nation, Hungary just does not keep up. This reflects in world university rankings that show ELTE as the highest Hungarian university in the 401-500 category.
This had a big effect on my wife who happens to have quite a talent for languages. Throughout her life, she has experienced frequent criticism and even ridicule for her desire to learn other languages, which those around her felt was a waste of time, and somehow unpatriotic. The result for her has been an enduring sense of being unwanted by her country and a feeling of inferiority at being ‘different’. To make matters worse, the lack of cooperation between the Hungarian state and English speaking countries means that her state awarded English speaking certificate is not recognised by many major universities, meaning that she is required to complete an entire course to prove she can do what she is capable of already. Incidentally, most of her learning was self-directed, with her appraisal of her taught education as being overall pretty poor. Once again, the result of this is that she is unlikely to want to return to Hungary to live, simply because there is no place for her in the country of her birth. This leads me to my last point about the question of Hungarian solidarity or sense of community. On this website, I read a lot of the sense of brotherhood and the love of the Magyar people for their own kind. In reality, however, my experience has been far from this. What I saw was a people mired in hatred and resentment of each other and who will do anything they can even if it means crossing your own family or friends.
For example, after the death of a friend’s father at the hands of a drunk driver, one neighbour responded with satisfaction saying that “God had judged them.” Another neighbour set about taking advantage of the mother’s vulnerable state, at the same time that a work associate of the father started doing the same thing. For her part, the mother started abusing my friend who at the time of her father’s death was only 13. Despite things going from bad to worse, and with my friend’s emotional state no-one did anything to help, and things got really bad before they started to get better .I actually agree with one thing that bobs’ says, in that I think that the international community really does need to take some of the responsibility for the state Hungary is in, and that a lot could be done to address the country’s deep problems. I also recognise that the social problems present have developed over a long period of time as a result of centuries of oppression and violence. This has resulted in a state of national depression and post traumatic stress (as I have discussed in earlier posts) One of the really hard things about depression though, is that while there may be those who want to help, the words and behaviour of the sufferer often drive others away and sometimes even antagonise people who would otherwise be allies. So where to with all of this?
The sucky thing about humanity is that where there is vulnerability, there is always someone willing to take advantage. The weakened state of Hungarian society just enables those with bad intentions to achieve their aims. I believe therefore, that the answer is not to close up, or to retreat from the world but to find ways to communicate constructively. To those who would say that this will lead to the decline of Hungarian culture, I would argue that this is not the case. I think Hungarian culture is declining already; slowly being eaten away with bitterness and hatred for an invisible enemy. On the other hand, with greater openness, and an improving economy, much could be achieved to reinvigorate the beauty of the Hungarian culture. I really liked your (FL’s) suggestions of university endowments and that stuff about public involvement in the development of energy resources. I think Hungary needs a positive common goal that unites all of the people living there and these are good examples of where to start. I think it’s important to define identity by what you are, rather than what you are not and what you love rather than what you hate. I worry that with increasing isolationism and social disunity, things in Hungary will only get worse. Belief in a Magyar utopia will only lead to more disappointment, but the hope for a peaceful, united, stable nation is worthwhile and with a lot of hard work, entirely possible.
So in the end, while I definitely agree with you that the ‘brain drain’ won’t stop until the economic situation in Hungary improves, I also think that a lot also must happen to improve the social life of the nation if it is to keep those who wish for a better life for them and their families and who have the opportunity to find it elsewhere. I also don’t see much hope of those who have left returning when so many of those Hungarian expats I have met feel like they have been rejected and ostracised by those who have stayed.
…and to those who would describe me as a ‘Hungarian hater’ or other such derogatory descriptor, nothing could be further from the truth. I miss Hungary, and I feel a great personal sadness that my wife doesn’t have a sense of Hungary as her homeland. I hope that we will return, but I’m not going to push. I really do hope life improves for all Hungarians. I am an outsider, but I don’t think that means I can’t have an opinion or make a comment. As a teacher and a student, I have always had the attitude that one should never be too proud to learn from anyone; a principle that has served me well, and something that I humbly suggest could be useful for Hungary.
@Cinaed: Thanks a lot!
I whoöeheartedly agree with your analysis (considering my limited knowledge and experience here in Hungary).
I think that I have been very lucky choosing the surroundings of Heviz for my domicile (besides finding my new wife this way – which had the probability of winning the lotto!), because it seems to me people here are much more positive in many respects. In my opinion this comes from their continued contaxct with others: foreign tourists but of course also Hungarian tourists, mainly from Budapest, which itself as a metropolis has different characteristics from the countryside.
So while my original decision to go to Heviz was very simple and practical: As a spa town, Heviz is “open” all year round, compared to the typical Balaton holiday places. It now turns out to be the best thing I’ve ever done in my life – I hope !
@ Cinead
Thank you for an amazingly clear posting.
I hope you are wrong about some of your observations about Hungary and Hungarians
Problem for me: – if I accept what you say, then a whole lot of the things that kept me in total confusion about the country of my birth, become crystal clear. I don’t like it.
So rather than accept the truth, I think I’ll just deny it. The truth is way too depressing
@Cinead – Appears that you described Pava to a T. A Hungarian who distrusts and despises everyone except himself.
There is a big difference between distrust and wading through bullshit to bring truth about.
I like Hungary and its people. Hungary has many talented people but they do not stay and choose to work abroad because of the higher wages and better prospects.
Hungary has been caught short many times because of pathetic leadership. The Trianon Treaty was harsh, undoubtedly. Why sign it?
But it happened and now the nation faces a whole raft of different problems.
Confidence at the moment has hit rock bottom. I know its doom and gloom time but not facing up to responsibilities only makes matters worse.
It makes me very sad to see such a great country
and its people sold short at every step of the crooked way in these social, and economic, turbulent times.
@ Sandor;
They signed it because they had not choice.
I used to have a less pro-Hungarian view of Trianon.Put simply, I could see the Western point of view and understand the Western theory of how power and land should be divided.Over time though, I have come to see the Hungarian point of view as well, and now I am left with an uncomfortable combination of both.I posted a little while ago about the link between the 1848 revolution and the otucome of Trianon, so I don’t want to repeat that (I can post it again if anyone wants) What has influenced me lately is a documentary series by Professor Niall Ferguson called ‘The War of the World’(not the sci-fi), about the history of conflict throughout the 20th century. He argues that really the wars of this period were not distinctly separate events, but really one 100 years war in which the major factor was race.In relation to central europe post-WWI, he argues that while it might seem admirable to grant nation status to the various minorities, in fact, by dismantling the larger multi-national empires, it bred chauvanism and competition for land that the various ethnicities viewed as their ancestral entitlement. He concludes saying that the hodge-podge of small nation states are actually the ‘graveyards of nations’. I don’t think there is any going back from this point, and I worry about the rising tension in the region.
I still have my questions about whether or not this means that the Magyar people should have been the ‘rightful rulers’ of other minority groups in the area, but one thing is for certain is that the dismantling of Greater Hungary really set the scene for what is becoming a region increasintly divided along racial lines. If there was any ‘peace’ after WWII in this region, it was not because of organic social cohesion but by the oppression of the communists of everyone.
By the way, I don’t really believe in the idea of ‘territory gained fair and square in war’. I think it is a human failing to see the competition for land as a game. War is not just ‘enthusiastic negotiation’…war is death, and murder, and torture…it is a loss of innocence. I respect soldiers who have given their lives in defence of their country, but I don’t respect the politicians or activists who promote the glory of war as a justifiable way to gain territory.
Incidentally, the view that Jews were hated because of their refusal to integrate is not entirely accurate. According to Ferguson pre-WWII the Jews in Germany were very much integrated in the community with something like 1 in 2 marriages being mixed. He argues then that it wasn’t that Jews were different that made them hated, but rather, that they were becoming increasingly LESS different. It’s an interesting idea.
If you want a run down on the Jews in Europe WW1 and
WW2 check out Benjamin H. Freedman who was a Zionist
and converted to a Christian because of the Jewish
rule.
@Cinaed:
You and Prof. Ferguson are surely right, look at places like Africa, where you have the many nations/tribes problem or Afghanistan/Irac and so on – that’s why I’m always asking for MORE integration in the EU, not less…
I wrote it befor – 200 years ago Germany itself didn’t really exist – it was a collection of small states, envious of each other (like Italy!)
Many historians think that was one of the major problems in Europe: Germany as a single nation/state being late, look at how they tried at having colonies like the French or British…
Of course in retrospect we were lucky there, many problems now in these countries come from their former colonies, those haunt them somehow…
Back to Hungary:
European Union is the only way to go, especially for small and unimportant countries like Hungary and its neighbours (!!!) and it will happen – in 50 years people will laugh about those little countries and states of the 20th century, we’ll have one strong Europe (I hope) competing with China India USA and so on…
Cineád,
“He argues then that it wasn’t that Jews were different that made them hated, but rather, that they were becoming increasingly LESS different. It’s an interesting idea.”
Yes, one that I think also applies to gypsies in Hungary. You can’t make a firm phenotypic distinction between gypsy and magyar, like the one that defines Obama as a black man. As a result the more sophisticated proponents of difference go for a cultural/socio-economic distinction, the less for a racial caricature that bares as much relationship to reality as the depictions of N.M. Rothschild (between pages 154-155 of “The Ascent of Money”).
What is really interesting the apparent psychological need for difference – I think this applies to language too, but my hurka is calling…
Hi Sophist…do I take this to mean I’m back in your good books? I am also very interested in the issue of difference as a defining feature of identity. In fact, one of the sub-chapters of my thesis is “Biology, Psychology and Difference”. It is about this topic as it relates to mental health status and social power. By the way, I really enjoyed ‘the ascent of money’, but I don’t have the book, I have the documentary series on DVD. I know Ferguson is ‘unassailable’ here on politics.hu too, because Tunde quoted him.
I was actually annoyed when ‘The War of The World’ came out because he used ‘my’ idea that I wanted to put into a History research project during undergrad, but couldn’t because of my own health problems at the time. Oh well, Ferguson has a much nicer accent than I do, so I’m reduced to being like a guitarist and saying “I can do that”.
Cineád,
These are two images of Nathan Rothschild Ferguson uses:
A portrait:
http://www.yayabla.nl/news/show_article.phparticleid=1304
And a propaganda poster:
http://www.allposters.co.uk/-sp/Caricature-of-theFamily-Rothschild-from-Le-Rire-16th-April-1898-Posters_i1733807_.htm
More subtle are the two images I used of Neumann with a group of my students to explain what I thought defined racist imagery.
his portrait:
biografieonline.it/biografia.htm/BioID=1584&biografia=John+von+Neumann
And a propaganda poster:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/curiousexpeditions/525403235/
The poster of Neumann is fascinating, it was actually drawn to object to Neumann’s involvement in the development of the Atomic bomb, but look how it draws on European characterisations of Jewishness.
Cináed,
However, I would be careful with Ferguson’s current writing – he is now a populiser rather than a historian, and is no longer subject to peer review. ‘The Cash Nexus’ was astonishingly good, but even with A level statistics I can find errors in ‘the Ascent of Money’ which reworks some of the same material; for example, he writes:
“(for example the statement that [x] = 40 per cent … at a confidence level of 95 per cent, implies [that x] lies somewhere between 35 and 45 per cent – 40 plus or minus 5 per cent” (Ascent of Money, pg 189)
I think he should write “the probability of [x] lying between 35% and 45% is 95%.” But the +/- 5% margin of error has nothing to do 95=(100-5)%confidence interval, and would have to be calculated independently, from the mean. (Van. should look at this, his statistics are not as rusty as mine!)
So maybe you still have a possibility of putting him straight.
@Sophist:
Thanks for those references to von Neumann!
I’ve read a lot about him, he was one of the greatest mathematicians of the last cebtury wuth an enormous span in his work – wish I only could have done a small part of that. Since I couldn’t compare with the likes of him, I left university and had to go work in computers …
There is a famous joke about a mathematical problem where he arrives at a quick solution – doing the complicated math of an infinite series in his head – everybody thinks he has used a shortcut, because his answer comes so fast.
Well,JustAsking. I am “just asking” as an ignorant foreigner: Why did they/who have to sign the Trianon
Treaty?
I know the French were complicit in forcing the hands of the other nations in this duplicitous act.
The French believed that Hungary could not do the same thing again after Trianon. They and their collaborators were wrong. Remember WW11?
Hungary chose the wrong side again and got the commie Russians for fifty years. Remember Budapest 1956?
I do. It was sickening to watch those soviet tanks with the help of the AVH destroy Budapest.
Courageous and patriotic Hungarians died for what?
The current branch of the Red Army aka the MSZP?
@Sophist: There’s nothing to add to what you have said. As you state, the margin of error (which is often written as half of the confidence interval) is not the same as confidence level (in this case 95%).
Ferguson tells you what the confidence level is and then appears to confuse this with confidence interval, from which he derives his seemingly erroneous margin of error.
It is not clear (from the quote you give) if he has calculated the confidence interval or falsely inferred it from the confidence level.
If you knew the population and sample size, you could of course calculate the interval and the margin or error. Also it may also be affected by how extreme the answers are. For example, in a survey if 99% of people chose A and 1% B, your margin of error will be smaller than when 51% chose A and 49% B, for the same sample and population size.
Anyway, seems like a pretty scary mistake to make, get it past an editor and have it published.
p.s. For those who want to brush up their stats the MIT Open Courseware project has all their lecture notes and materials available for free. Just chose which course you want: http://bit.ly/Vhwto
@ Sandor;
I am going to give you a brief answer as to why Hungary signed the Treaty. The rest of your post will be addressed in a day or two when I have time. On Feb 12, 1920 the Hungarian reps wrote back that they would not accept the terms of the Treaty and demanded plebiscites and agreed to honour those results. With that responce, they (Hungarians reps) provided a pile of “evidence” if you will, to support their position and why. Of course this was ignored by the Allied powers. A few months later Hungary received a notice rejecting their demands and were essentially told that if they did not sign the Treaty, that even more of their country would be occupied. Caught between a rock and a hard place, the Treaty was signed by Agostone Bernard and Alfred Drasche-Lazar at 10:00am June 4th, 1920.
I think what really needs to be understood was that Trianon was not the direct result of WWI, like many would have you believe. In my opinion, countries like France, England, Serbia, Romania and Czech-Slovaks all had their own agendas on Hungarys fate from past history and WWI was as good as its gonna get for excuses. So they were falsely labelled one of the instigators of WWI (just remember that a Serb assassinated Archduke Ferdinand) and the rest they say is history.
Although I do not appreciate the “tone” in your post, I do take your comments/questions very seriously, and as I said, will address each one accordingly.
@Cináed: Wow. I mean woe… This is déjà vu all over again. Yes, what you wrote is true for a certain segment of our population, more precisely, you are describing our rural middle to lower middle class, small town people, the petite bourgeoisie that is obnoxious anywhere not just in Hungary and ‘they are not really Hungary,’ the whole Hungary or not only they are Hungary — they are just one of our dark sides. There are many other Hungaries much more attractive that you fail to mention. I am not saying that you are intentionally lying, it’s just that you are like a blind person touching an elephant’s trunk and thinking that it looks like a snake. Coming from a society that pretends to be classless you also don’t understand class distinctions that are still very much prevalent in Hungary. Not knowing Hungarian too well doesn’t help either. You must have misunderstood a lot during your years here. And, it’s not just the language, it’s an entirely different mindset applying an alien frame of reference to Hungarian issues that have very little to do with your accumulated experiences. Take ‘racism’ for example. We have never had a slave trade, you did. So it’s fine for you to pretend that you are trying to compensate for it but it’s just ridiculous when you try to include us in that effort. We are NOT you. We are very different.
Wolfi,
“There is a famous joke about a mathematical problem where he arrives at a quick solution – doing the complicated math of an infinite series in his head – everybody thinks he has used a shortcut, because his answer comes so fast”.
My eldest daughter (11) was asked in class, which famous Hungarian mathematician did the following in primary school:
Asked by the teacher to calculate the sum of al the integers between 1 and 100. He calculated it as follows 100+(99+1=100)+(98+2=100) etc i.e 4950 (?). Do you know who this mathematician was?
@Cináed, continued: I am not even saying that all your observations are wrong. There is isolationism, of course, and there is emigration almost as bad as Irish or Scandinavian emigration was in the 19th century for — the same reason; what you say about the nastiness of our society is also spot on but you could observe identical attitudes among the French of Quebec or the Channel Islands or any any other defeated people like the Germans of Königsberg, Danzig, Elsaß or the Italians of Corsica. And, the solution to that particular problem is not becoming a European Louisiana or any of the above. Then there is the learned helplessness the Soviets imposed on us after they locked down our borders… (apparently we were and are deemed dangerous…) and I don’t think you can learn from text books how that felt on the receiving end. As for the “related” hostility to ‘foreigners’ meaning you Anglos, it’s less due to ‘isolationism’ than to the realization what being ‘liberated and given democracy’ by the you people really means. We used to hate the Russians for it and we were sure that you are different until we finally had to face the fact that you’re even worse. Our anti Anglo sentiment though is very recent and even in its most ‘virulent’ form it is a love-hate thing. To be honest it is the love part that bothers me. We’re picking up so many English words and Anglicisms that Hungarian will soon sound like Tok Pisin.
@Cináed, more: To sum it up, other than Magyars disliking you folks and the Russkies there are no real hostilities between us and other non-invasive endemic ethnic groups, our neighbors or any other European nation with the possible exception of France, despite constant attempts to create some. We are a classic multicultural civilization with all its advantages and disadvantages. My own great great grandparents came to Hungary from different parts of Europe and everyone in our family has been at least bi but more often trilingual. We were educated all over Europe, vacationed in Italy and France, starting to speak those languages in small childhood. Growing up in Budapest one of my best friends was Slovak whose family spoke Slovak at home. I still like hearing that language because it reminds me of a very happy childhood. My other best friend’s mom was Argentinean and she used to yell at us in Spanish when we were bad. I had a Swabian nanny who spoke and sang ( ‘wo man die Vegel niederschiesst ist auch der Himmel blau…”
to me in dialect and told me German bedtime stories making Till Eulenspiegel and der kleine Muck just as much part of my childhood as János vitéz and Egri csillagok while my parents kept telling me that ‘ahány nyelvet beszélsz, annyi ember vagy…’ So much for ‘Hungarian xenophobia…’
@Cináed, cont.: And, I haven’t even mentioned the huge bi or tri cultural Hungarian populations of the neighboring ex 2/3 of Hungary. “[Hungary] … struggling economically partly because of the reluctance and sometimes downright refusal of Hungarians to deal with traders from other countries” Which is another crock! Apprenticeship in Hungary has for centuries included international travel. Most of the Soviet apparatchiks even learned their original trade in Austria and Germany — Rákosi himself studied in Hamburg and London where he also interned with a British trading company. He kept returning to the the UK until his forced retirement in 1956. (Interesting, isn’t it?) Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that the Paris ‘peace’ (Trianon) or the ‘iron curtain’ hasn’t perverted us to a huge degree but still what you wrote is just not the whole truth, Cini, which means that it’s simply not true.
@Olga: “JOBBIK… forgot minor… details” Why are you so obsessed with Jobbik? This is funnier than brother Hussein’s Nobel peace prize and that is very funny… Who would hire them to chauffeur rump Hungary anyway? The Russkies? The Allies sure won’t. So what’s all this pissing and moaning about them? Clue me in, will you? “How will Hungary reclaim its pre-Trianon borders?” How will the people of Central Europe unite to create a modern and perhaps expanded version of the Monarchy — like Poland was reborn after WWI? “It ain’t gonna happen. The logistics are impossible” It will start happening within 20 years. There will be revolutions, the (evil) empire will collapse (hallelujah) and if they don’t blow us up we’ll have a brand new world order — very different from what they call ‘new world order,’ which is Plan A — in Plan B life on earth will end (and you may want to bet on the latter).
@Anonymous: “described Pava to a T…” You misspelled your name Anus…
I know a few hungarians who studied in london, and vacationed in france or switzerland, even during soviet times. Life was good, then.
Psz.,
“Coming from a society that pretends to be classless you also don’t understand class distinctions that are still very much prevalent in Hungary”
Some examples would be convincing. I’ve worked on the assumption that communist social levelling had been extremely effective, leaving money as the only indicator of class. How does one identify poor but posh in Hungary?
There are no “posh” in Hungary only “poor,” indigent souls that wander the pusztas ln search
of a redeemer and/or leader that will lead them out of the wilderness of poverty and corruption into
a world of riches and success.
Some hope…???
Sophist: to be perfectly honest, the statistics stuff leaves me a bit cold. That’s not to say I don’t ‘care’, just that, well…I’d rather have my eyeballs sucked out through my nasal cavity.
I know what you mean about Ferguson being a populist rather than a ‘genuine’ intellectual and have kind of thought the same thing. As a person who can explain complex ideas in a way that ordinary people can understand though, he’s pretty good. If nothing else, he is one of very few people at the moment who seems to be creating a well-polished product. I know there are some inaccuracies, but I figure as long as he doesn’t present blatent lies as self-evident truth, and as long as his work stimulates healthy discussion, then it’s not all bad. I read a review on ‘The War of The World’ that was going on and on about how the whole series was crap because in a section describing the tank battle near Kiev, there was film of some particular model of tank that wasn’t in service in that battle. Of course, I’m no stats expert (I get other people to do that stuff for me), and so I understand that to a statistician such inaccuracies might really get up the nose. Does the issue you mention change the overall meaning/message, or is it central to his argument? (not being sarcastic) I just figure like the saying says: “eat the meat and spit out the bones.” I watch and read stuff with the view that while it might be compelling, I should analyse deeply before I take it on as a paradigm shift.
Hi Pav, has been a big day, and I’m too tired to answer your post properly. A couple of things though…
I’m glad you said you didn’t want to accuse me of deliberately lying, still, lying had nothing to do with it…the post was a group of ideas relating to the topic of ‘brain drain’ in which I had hoped FL would comment. It wasn’t about honesty or an attempt to be manipulative, just reflections based on experience.
You’re right that there are many truly wonderful Hungarians and I count myself very lucky for having met many who took me in and tried very hard to communicate with me despite mutual awkwardness. I do get tired of writing never-ending disclaimers and trying to cover every possible reading or defending my writing on ‘possible readings’ rather than just approaching the central topic though. I try to say what I’m saying, not what I’m not…and I’m really not the kind of person who only ever speaks between the lines and uses cryptic riddles to deflect. Being dishonest about this kind of stuff is just too tiring.
The lack of social-cohesiveness I mentioned was something that I heard a lot of from Hungarians.More than just my personal negative experiences, many of the ‘nice’ Hungarians lamented over the way that Hungarians can treat each other.Many times the ‘nice’ ones were ashamed at how I was treated, and I had to assure them that I didn’t judge them or Hungarians in general, but recognised it was a symptom of a much greater issue.
So Pav, I just wanted to say that I am not ‘against’ Hungary or Hungarians.In fact, although sadly it seems that the message wasn’t strong enough, I do empathise with the experience of having people come in from outside who think they’re experts and that they’re going to ‘educate these poor, wretched, backward savages’.I’ve been in that situation myself and find it frustrating and even humiliating.
Going to Hungary was one of the best decisions I ever made.”It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.” Being there changed my life and I learned so much.As I said to Law, it is regrettable if my experiences don’t reflect your views, but such as they are, they are.
Surely though, you recognise that there are significant social problems, and that economic issues are not the only reasons why some Hungarians leave and never return? Don’t misunderstand me though, this is not a value judgement.As I said in my post, it is no surprise there are such social issues given the history of the nation.I would just like to confront the issue and talk about ways to resolve some of the problems rather than attacking each other.
For your reference too, although ‘we’ did some appalling things to our indigenous people and effectively did have slavery, ‘we’ never had an organised legal slave trade. In other words, I’m not from the US. I thought that cat was out of the bag.
Pav…so yeah, if I’ve missed anything, I apologise. As I mentioned though, it has been a big and very hot, day and I’m just too tired to go through your post with the attention it deserves.
@ Pavaszem
Re: “JOBBIK… forgot minor… details” Why are you so obsessed with Jobbik? This is funnier than brother Hussein’s Nobel peace prize and that is very funny…
1. I am obsessed with JOBBIK because I have accepted the fact that Hungary ‘s mainstream political parties a drowning in corruption and incompetence. I actaully think Bajani means well but he is powerless . (The road to hell is paved etc.)
I think JOBBIK is a diversion instead of dealing with the real issues at hand – that is to move Hungary forward instead of looking at the past.
I gather the only issue we agree on is the gross unfairness of Trianon.
BTW – a revolution in Central Europe in 20 years?
I don’t think so. Europe’s salvation will be the younger generation – the ones that want a future not based up on hate, paranoia and the past.
I know this is going to shock you – you would never have guessed. I am thrilled that Obama got the Nobel peace prize.
Do I think handled the Health care issue properly? Absolutely not. – but then, this is a Hungarian website
Justasking. Don!t bother to reply any further to my posts. I do not like you, nor your obviously biased and often incorrect information. If you have to take time to reply to my previous questions this obviously determines that you are a fake and frivolous prat.
Here is something for you to chew over (if you have time?)
The French, despite American protests and calls for plebiscites, sent their troops to Northern Hungary in violation of the cease fire, and then pushed through the Treaty of Versailles (Trianon). Although Rumania, herself created only in 1862, switched to the French side almost at the very end of the war, she gained all of Transylvania and majority of the Banat, but claimed the river Tisza. The Czechs were awarded all of Northern Hungary (now Slovakia), despite equal numbers of Hungarians and Slovaks in the region, to create Czechoslovakia. The Serbs got Southern Hungary (Vojvodina), Slavonia, and Croatia (confederated with Hungary for 700 years) to create the unlikely “Yugoslavia,” which, like Czechoslovakia, effectively, no longer exists. Perhaps most amazingly, the Austrians who were responsible for getting Hungary into the war in the first place, got Western Hungary (Burgenland).
The Americans, and the British/Churchill, bowed to French pressure in pushing through Trianon. This was their only part in the whole sordid and scandalous business.
Cin.,
“As a person who can explain complex ideas in a way that ordinary people can understand though, he’s pretty good.”
Well, that is pretty much where I’m saying he has fallen down. He has failed to explain “confidence levels” – and it is secondary school stuff.
“Does the issue you mention change the overall meaning/message, or is it central to his argument?
I still haven’t finished the book. But the idea that ignorance of statistical concepts is dangerous is emerging as a theme: for example,
writing about the sub-prime crisis:
“At the time the sellers of these ‘structured products’ boasted that securitization was having the effect of allocating risk ‘to those best to able to bear it’. Only later did it turn out the risk was being allocated to those least able to understand it.” (pg 269)
My position on this is that a familiarity with statistics is now as important as a familiarity with logic. I’m interested in how technology – including sof technologies like stats – creates underclasses, and I think refusing to engage critically with statistics is a way of disenfranchising yourself. Think about what is going on in Copenhagen, and see if you disagree.
Sophist: I don’t actually disagree with you. I think ignorance of any data collection method leaves one open to manipulation. My thing is more that I am just not passionate about mathematics. I actually did fairly well in my quantitative methods classes and I still keep a manual on statistical methods for the social sciences. I just prefer to let those around me who are more passionate about it to do the deep analysis stuff. For example, my brother is a computer systems engineer and is one of those guys who sees poetry in mathematics. On the contrary, he finds deeper social theory and history about as boring as bat-shit. I figure there is potential for synergy there.I think my comment about explaining complex things simply more related to the historical context of the way things connect rather than explaining deeper mathematical formulae. Bear in mind too that I am coming from the reference point of the DVD, which I would imagine doesn’t focus on the maths as much.All said and done, my ‘thing’ is qualitative enquiry into society, using a mix of sociological, psychological and anthropological methods. The stats are certainly not irrelevant, but one of the things I am wary of is the tendency to reduce the world to functions of numbers, and ignoring those deeper thoughts, feelings and emotions that actually make people PEOPLE.
…and for the sake of disclaimer for those who need it. I’m saying what I’m saying, not what I’m not.
“I know this is going to shock you – you would never have guessed. I am thrilled that Obama got the Nobel peace prize.”
They gave nobel peace, literature and even science prizes not for real merit but for propaganda so long that they are worth exactly as much as the cash that goes with them. With all the money and publicity, it is still nice to get but for nothing else. Giving Obama the peace prize, it not so bad considering that it is usually given out the terrorists who took a short break murdering people. President Carter getting the peace price did not add to his stature that did not need any help but it propped up that pitiful bunch giving out these prizes, maybe.
Cin.,
“I am coming from the reference point of the DVD, which I would imagine doesn’t focus on the maths as much.”
Nor to my frustration does the book – which is very much a ‘book of the TV series’
“my ‘thing’ is qualitative enquiry into society, using a mix of sociological, psychological and anthropological methods. The stats are certainly not irrelevant, but one of the things I am wary of is the tendency to reduce the world to functions of numbers, and ignoring those deeper thoughts, feelings and emotions that actually make people PEOPLE.”
I don’t think the problem with statistics is reduction but abstraction. If people consider the assumptions underlying the numbers (i.e. engage critically with the numbers), then the debate is restored.
Nor are numbers less deep than thoughts, feelings and emotions. For example a number of heuristics in psychology are quantitative in nature:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristics#Psychology
In sociology/philosophy there is the work of George Simmel, this link offers a very ‘potted’ account.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_Money
A fuller account of how money has influences History is offered by Adam Tooze, (also potted)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wages_of_Destruction
My view is that in our modern world that money (inherently numerical) is at least as powerful shaper of human identities and behaviour as sex or status or family or religion. Sociologists etc. diminish it at their peril.
Sophist: yeah, ok, I get it, but I am not diminishing statistics, just saying that it’s not everything, and that as it is not my strongest point, I don’t see the point in reinventing the wheel. I guess it depends what your background is in terms of what is focused on. In the uni where I’ve been studying, there is an over-reliance on the idea that there are statistics for everything, and that the only worthwhile form of sociological enquiry is that which can be represented in numbers. I think there are some things that can’t and indeed shouldn’t be represented in numbers alone. This is my axe to grind though, so perhaps it isn’t worth going on about. I don’t want you to think that I’m saying that stats aren’t valid, useful or even necessary. I’m just saying they are not the sum total (pun) of sociological investigation. I do see what you’re saying about the flow of money etc and the need for mathematical analysis.That I am not arguing. …it’s just not the focus of what I do. I also don’t think you should worry about sociologists etc not being skilled in stats…believe me, I know there is no shortage of sociologists with calculators.
By the way, one of the great icons of the sociological world is Durkheim’s ‘Suicide: A Study in Sociology’. Which at its heart, is effectively a quantitative statistical analysis.
Cin.,
“yeah, ok, I get it”
S’pose I’ll have to let you go, then.
But to bring the discussion right back to its point of departure:
“I know there is no shortage of sociologists with calculators.”
But there is a shortage of popularisers with calculators, and given Ferguson’s background – a professor of financial history – he should be one.
If it is the case that the kind of maths/stats the financial world is using everyday can’t be popularised/taught to the majority, then our conceptions of democracy need to be rethought. Or, as some commentators are suggesting so of the more complicated financial technolgies should be illegal. Ideas that the Ascent of Money also implies.
Sophist: no worries hehe.
…and yes, I do take your point. Mind you, popularising mathematics is a big ask. Unless you’re a total geek, maths is as boring as…well, I can’t think of a colourful metaphor accurate enough.Just Kidding, but you have to admit that unless you have a special affinity for mathematics, its ‘turn of phrase is difficult to appreciate’. In regard to the moral aspects of complex financial transactions, I think there is a case to be made for greater responsibility of those offering such services…or in the case of some kinds of practices, that they should be illegal.As to the competition between maths and the social sciences…I rather jokingly lament the lack of respect that people have for social scientists as compared with maths based occupations.If my brother (the quintessential computer-head of the family) makes a claim about computers or maths, no-one questions him, on the other hand, if I make a claim about society, well…suddenly everyone is an expert. No, I’m not really that insecure.My point is to support your view in that while we all have an opinion on society or morality or whatever, when it comes to anything involved with higher than very basic level maths, we just accept whatever we’re given without question, as long as we don’t have to think about it.
By the way, you mentioned an exercise you were doing with your students about racist imagery.I’d love to know more about the exercise itself.
I came up with a saying…Yes yes, it’s a generalisation blah blah disclaimer…
“when it comes to arguments, ‘westerners’ start cool and heat up, but Hungarians start hot and cool down.”
By the way Pav…the people I talked about were largely in urban settings. I found the country people far more friendly and hospitable.Perhaps you’re right about them being largely from middle to lower Socio-economic-status, but then, if a Hungarian is rich, well, I see a lot of questions being asked and statements being made about where that wealth came from.
@Sop: “I’ve worked on the assumption that communist social levelling had been extremely effective, leaving money as the only indicator of class…” Nothing they did was effective… The apparatchiks had servants, believe it or not… You can also tell in Hungary just by looking at someone what he does. ( Which shouldn’t come as a shock to you. Didn’t you say you were English?
“How does one identify poor but posh in Hungary?” By their names. Széchenyi, Görgey, Daróczy, etc. are all protected names. You have to inherit them to have them. Do they have to be poor though? How about rich and posh? http://www.schloss-esterhazy.at/hu/home/
@Cináed: “Surely… you recognise… there are significant social problems… economic issues are not the only reasons… Hungarians leave and never return?” Admittedly, but how are these reasons peculiar to Hungarians or Hungary? Economic issues were also not the only reasons the Irish left Ireland or the Swedes Sweden when they had their ‘significant social problems.’ “‘we’ never had an organised legal slave trade. In other words, I’m not from the US. I thought that cat was out of the bag.” I hope you’re not trying to convince us that Australia is or has ever been independent, are you? “when it comes to arguments, ‘westerners’ start cool and heat up, but Hungarians start hot and cool down.” I am going to use that…
@Cináed, more: “By the way… the people I talked about were largely in urban settings.” Small, provincial towns I presume? “country people far more friendly and hospitable” My favorite Hungarians too. Depending on the region though. “if a Hungarian is rich, well, I see a lot of questions being asked and statements being made about where that wealth came from.” How do you explain that?
@Olga: “I actaully think Bajani means well but he is powerless” He is a gangster… I mean literally. Search on Hajdú-Bét & Bajnai, öngyilkosságok & Bajnai or start here http://➡.ws/䍙飤 He’s been involved with Ron Lauder and Joav Blum too in the Sukoró King City scam — in other words he is a scum bag so I’m not surprised that you like him. “I think JOBBIK is a diversion instead of dealing with the real issues at hand” They are. “- that is to move Hungary forward instead of looking at the past.” If you don’t know where you’ve come from you won’t know where you’re going! “I gather the only issue we agree on is the gross unfairness of Trianon” We seem to have similar ideas about Christianity too… I think… “a revolution in Central Europe in 20 years?” A global revolutionary wave such as 1776-89, 1848, 1956 or 1968 were. Italy is warming up as we discuss this… “Europe’s salvation will be the younger generation” Have you noticed how young most Jobbik members are?
@Olga, continued: “I am thrilled that Obama got the Nobel peace prize.” I am sure you are. Let’s hope he attacks Iran and gets it again next year!
@Anus: “I know a few hungarians who studied in london, and vacationed in france or switzerland, even during soviet times. Life was good, then.” Not in Hungary though…
@ Paveszem
Let’s call a truce – we’ll never agree on anything so why bother with endless repetitions?
I am honestly sincere in wanting to know your opinion – just a two liner please
Why are people who belonged to the Communist party
(official proof not allegations) allowed to run for political office in Hungary?
@Olga: “we’ll never agree on anything”But didn’t we just… ?
“Communist party [people]… allowed to run” Apparatchiks are still running the machine because they are just what the corporations need — or at least the best they can get for the time being. Training their own compradors has been a flop so far — as demonstrated by Orbán, et al. Hungarians are just too difficult… 
Pav: “Admittedly, but how are these reasons peculiar to Hungarians or Hungary?” This is an example of what I was complained about re: saying what I’m saying, not what I’m not. To answer the question though, it’s not peculiar to Hungarians, and yes, it has happened in numerous other countries. You’ll also recall that I have repeatedly said that I was not being judgemental of Hungarians as I think people of any nationality would probably act in a similar fashion.
“I hope you’re not trying to convince us that Australia is or has ever been independent, are you?” Again, I wasn’t saying anything about independence, I was pointing out that you were off the mark saying that “It was you who had a slave trade”. To answer your question though…to be honest, Australia’s situation re: independence, no, we are not ‘independent’ either in name or in nature. We are still part of the British Commonwealth, while a lot of policy is influenced by the US and more recently, China.For the most part though, we are one of the most stable, peaceful and free countries in the world.That’s not to say we don’t have problems, because there are many.I am very vocal about these issues, but I don’t see any point going on and on about it here.
“Small, provincial towns I presume?” Nope, the main examples I mentioned were in Budapest and Miskolc, with my boss in Debrecen telling me very sadly how difficult it was to attract quality foreign staff because of the way Hungarians conduct themselves professionally.
Pav: I’m glad you liked the quote I came up with…You know Pav, I’m starting to develop some respect for you. I can see that you’re genuinely passionate about your beliefs. Also, using my aforementioned theory of argument style, I think a lot of the time we just have a failure to communicate based on fundamentally different communication styles. Just an idea.
Cin,
“Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.”
I too have respect for Psz.’s beliefs, but find the passion troubling.
Pav: I forgot to mention, when it comes to independence of Australia, there is a pretty strong republican movement here, but to be honest, I don’t really think it would make much difference apart from meaning all of the letterheads would have to change. I think as far as things go, we are as ‘free’ as we are ever likely to be and I don’t see how changing things is going to do much more than cause some momentary rise in sentimental crap on TV. Our PM says that as long as Good Queen Bessie is still drawing breath, the republican issue is off the agenda. (come to think of it, I don’t want Big Ears for a King) Like I said though, I can’t see what would change much, except that the US might end up adding an extra star to their flag. It has been clear for some time that governments see us being more in the US sphere of influence than anyone else’s. This is something that has been policy for a long time…Prime Minister John Curtin said this in a published message in 1941.
“Without any inhibitions of any kind I make it quite clear that Australia looks to America, free of any pangs as to our traditional links or kinship with the United Kingdom.”
(Cited in Black, 1995, p195)
…Although, the way things are going, it’s also possible that we might just end up being bought by China. They’re already buying huge amounts of the dirt we dig up and send there on boats, how long till they just cut the in between step?
IMF owns Australia not China. Chinese are the scapegoats just because of progress, blame the evil Chinese! not…………..
Wombat, I think your name says it all. Actually, that wasn’t an anti-Chinese comment.Most of the Chinese people I know are lovely. In fact, Australia arguably wouldn’t be where it is without the contribution of Chinese people over many generations.
…otherwise, I wouldn’t have chosen to spend three years of my life there.
@ Pavaszem
You would get in trouble as a witness in any court hearing – all sides would be yelling at you to “answer the question please”
Why is it that you cannot answer simple questions directly?
Yes we agree that former Communists are not only running for office but are the incumbents.
My guess is that they were the only people who had political experience in 1989 belonged to the Party one time or another. I may be wrong.
Question 1 -Let me know if in your opinion I am and if I am not wrong why were they elected over and over again.
If true, 20 years have passed. Kids that were 20 are now 40. Plently of time to acquire political experience
Question 2 – 20 years later, why are former Communists allowed to run for office – why is it not against the rules (BTW, as I mentioned Communist party membership would have to be proven, not enough that someone’s 3rd cousin was seen having coffee with a Communist memeber)
Let me know if my 2 questions are confusing and if they do please answer . A two liner would be great as opposed to an essay in Communism
thanks
Actually; Pava could always plead the 5th, it would be within his right. Does not mean he can’t answer a question, more like, he does not feel like answering a question. Then again, I’m not a Lawyer.
@Cináed: “saying what I’m saying, not what I’m not” I hear you. It’s just that the picture you presented wasn’t complete. It wasn’t the whole truth. So, let me rephrase: We behave like the Irish behaved when most of their population emigrated because we’re treated like they were treated. And I haven’t said or even implied that you were judgmental. Nor do I think that you’re against Hungary or Hungarians. On the contrary, I think you’re admirably for us considering all the shit you had to put up with while you were here. “slave trade” etc. I meant the Anglosphere not you personally, of course, or even Australia that simply follows the lead dog of the Anglosphere whoever that may be at any given time. Which is what you really said yourself. Apparently ‘what we have here…’ is right too
) Stable? Is it really? Peaceful? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots Free? Well… ask Mr. Zentai how free Australia really is. “the way Hungarians conduct themselves professionally.” Why do you think we behave like that? “it’s also possible that we might just end up being bought by China” It is not. Nor would the Chinese want to buy or colonize you. It’s just not their nature. “genuinely passionate” It’s because we Hungarians have paprika in the blood. If you don’t believe me, ask wolfi. He’ll tell ya… 
@Sophist: The worst are full of passion? How English! But I am not English, am I, old chap? I am HUNGARIAN! I don’t keep a stiff upper lip.
@Olga: “answer the question please” You ask the wrong questions or leading questions and then throw a hissy fit when I don’t say what you want to hear. How typical. “running for office” Our ‘elections’ are basically circuses, hoaxes. Does that confuse you? I said they are ‘running the machine’ because that’s the only kind of running they really do. “they were the only people who had political experience in 1989″ Antall was a museum director and an incompetent moron just like his brother in law and foreign minister Jeszenszky Géza. Not that they mattered much. They were just window dressing in a very cheesy operetta. “why are former Communists allowed to run for office” Haven’t I answered this a few times already? Why don’t you just tell me what you want to hear, Olga? Hungary is not Canada! If this is too complicated for you just tell me which part of ‘Canada’ you don’t understand. I already know that you don’t understand Hungary at all.
Psz.,
“The worst are full of passion? How English!”
- Written by an Irishman, W.B.Yeats.
“I am HUNGARIAN! I don’t keep a stiff upper lip.”
I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive, to keep a stiff upper lip means “to bear difficulties and danger with fortitude, without revealing ones emotions”. (Brewer’s). I know many Hungarians who keep a stiff upper lip – most obviously a student who lost both his legs under a train. Literary examples abound – István Dobo, Mihaly Timár, Emerence, The old General (surely, he appeals to you?), even George Faludy gets through Recsk without whingeing. I begin to think they only tranlsate Hungarian Novels with heroes attractive to anglo-saxon audiences, but then there is that blubbing Misi Nyilas”. In fact, I can only hope you’re being ironic because the sentimental and irresolute Hungarian (start off hot, end up cold) is a bit an Anglo-saxon stereotype.
Pav: “picture wasn’t complete” Well, yeah true enough, but how much space do you want me to take up? I can’t possibly cover every possible alternative reading. To address your point though, yes, I do agree, and I think that Hungarians’ behaviour is not any different to how any other people would act in similar circumstances, and yes, the circumstances the Irish faced were pretty terrible to say the least. For your information, my ancestors were directly affected by the potato famine and terrible social circumstances of the time. In the aftermath and with Ireland still in a bad state, my great great grandmother left Ireland at age 19 with little more than a suitcase and her hopes. Re: the slave trade topic. Yes, I think we follow too much, and sometimes our relationship with the US grates on me a bit, especially when they make a big deal about how we are such strong allies and stand together blah blah, but then they kill our trade with their subsidies. Mind you, I have my own criticisms of our own similar behaviour towards smaller nations. Eg: East Timor and natural gas resources.
(cont)
“Stable? Is it really? Peaceful?” Yes, compared to most other countries and considering our cultural diversity, we are amazingly stable and peaceful. The Cronulla riots were a shameful example of idiot hooligans draping themselves in the flag and committing acts of violence and vandalism. That kind of crap just gives us all a bad name. One of the things that made me the most mad was that those riots were heavily fuelled by the prevailing political rhetoric and hysteria of the time that demonised anyone from the middle east regardless of actual race, religion or political persuasion. Our government should have known better and so I think they should bear a great deal of the responsibility for what happened there. Overall though, the Cronulla riots were an aberration in Australian life and I hope, something that won’t be repeated. To give you an idea of just how ‘stable’ we are though, the most exciting political story this week was the number of people KRudd took to Copenhagen.
As far as Zentai goes. I’m not sure what you might have heard or seen in the news, but Hungary applied for his extradition. The case went through the whole court process, but it was found that there was no legal case for refusing. Our courts didn’t judge his guilt or innocence, but had to respect a treaty that we have with Hungary. Given that he is wanted for murder, it is a pretty serious case. Personally, I don’t think there should be a statute of limitations on murder, and although it is very unfortunate that it is only happening now, I think it sends the wrong message if we say “if you can run long enough, we will let you go.” I realise that this is a particularly sensitive case because of its social, historical and cultural significance, but if one sees it as a murder investigation, I think it becomes simpler. As to extradition treaties, well, we are required to observe them, which is good, because otherwise it would be a lot easier for all kinds of criminals to escape justice just by getting the hell out of dodge. Zentai is only one particular case though, and so to answer your original question of whether Australians are free or not, well, yes. Australians enjoy a lot of freedoms that many others don’t. I often think that we are so free we take it for granted and forget that oppression actually does still exist in the world and in the words of the funk fusion band ‘Dig’, “we share a silent collusion”.
Re: Chinese buying Australia. I wasn’t being serious really, although one should not underestimate the growing influence China has on Australia. Did you know that Mandarin is now Australia’s second most commonly spoken language? Also, education is now our second largest money earner after coal? …in which both the number one customers are, you guessed it, Chinese. Don’t get me wrong, I am not anti-Chinese at all, I just worry about putting all our eggs in one basket. “Nor would the Chinese want to buy or colonize you.” Did you hear about the huge drama and repercussions of the failed Chinalco bid to buy Rio Tinto? That was precisely the idea of cutting out the middle step and just getting the dirt at the source. Don’t underestimate the rising Dragon. I think China’s intentions are mostly benign for now, but with so much of the developed world in debt to them, I do have some concerns about how long things will remain friendly, or at the very least, how long it will take before they call in their debts. I don’t want to spoil the ending of ‘The Ascent of Money’ for Sophist, but the last episode of the series was about the economic ‘chimera’ of China and America. Interesting stuff.
India, China, and Brazil, are all gathering economic momentum at a rate of knots.
This will mean a re-ordering of the superpowers on the world stage. No-one can predict accurately what the next twenty years will have in store for us.
Australia has immediate problems with rainfall.
i.e. It hasn’t got any!
We all know what the next twenty years has in store for us here in Hungary…don’t we folks?
Buli time with Orban, Bajnai, Lendvai, Gyurscany,
and the rest of the cronies that masquerade as politicians but are in fact all members of the politburo.
Cin,
“I don’t want to spoil the ending of ‘The Ascent of Money’ for Sophist, but the last episode of the series was about the economic ‘chimera’ of China and America.”
No worries! (just trying to confuse Psz)
I finished Tuesday evening, the shock revelation wasn’t the comparision between Chimerica and pre WWI Britmany but the not so subtle implication that Soros is actually a crook. Unfortunately for our antisemitic friends, Soros is not a crook because he is Jewish, but because he is a hedge fund manager.
He argues that the because of the way hedge fund managers are rewarded (2% of assets under management + 20% of operating profits) that “quite a mediocre conman could make a good deal of money by setting up a hedge fund, taking $100 million off gullible investors and running the simplest possible strategy” which he then explains in far from simple detail.
I was shocked!!! I like Gyuri Soros, he talks about philosophy a lot and funds universities, so that other people can talk about philosophy. And he wiped the smile off that greasy little Norman Lamont’s face… now I remember Lamont is a Scot and Niall Ferguson thinks they are the chosen ones, well at least the illuminati…and who was Cináed anyway? Oh.
@ Pavaszem
Re: “I already know that you don’t understand Hungary at all.”
You are correct – but I am trying to.
Sophist: I didn’t get the same impression. I felt that Ferguson was kind of mocking the ‘quants’ by saying that Soros, using his old fashioned ‘intuition’ had triumphed over the positivistic notion of mathematics to solve everything. From memory there was an interview with Soros himself and I didn’t get a sense of Ferguson mocking him or even criticising him. I don’t know, perhaps we were watching for different things. The Chimerica thing was particularly interesting to me because of the way relationships have developed here as well…and because as I may have mentioned, I’ll be spending the next three years within the greater region of China’s territory. Maybe that’s what I was focusing on more than the Soros question.
For what it’s worth, I admire people who fund universities too. Although some time back here there was some controversy about a CEU professor, and from what I understand there was some link there with Soros. I only have a vague recollection though, so I am not making any judgement about that.
Cin,
“perhaps we were watching for different things”
I wasn’t watching anything, I was reading. Was there anything in the program about hedge fund managers remuneration? It’s interesting if there wasn’t.
@Cináed
It is a disgrace and an ugly example of Jewish/Communist double standard how these Communist murderers hound Károly Zentai, the same Communist murderers who never answered for their crimes against Hungarians and humanity.
I do not have all the details but there was a former AVO, a dentist in Australia. His victim recognized him and filed charges against him. The “Hungarian” Communist government sent a note to Australia claiming that the AVO did not torture people and this monster not only went free but also sued his victim.
It makes a mockery of Australian and “Hungarian” justice systems. Since you appear to be so well informed, maybe you could provide us with the details that I do not recall.
Hi Mark…I read my own post back later and realised it could have sounded a bit ‘know it all’, which wasn’t my intention. I don’t have all the specifics of the case in depth, but I know that the issues for the Australian end was whether we had a constitutional or legal right to deny the extradition request. I know that on the surface, it seems heavy handed to send an old man off to trial, but I as I said, these treaties exist for a reason, and as cumbersome as it is, we must abide by our treaty obligations. I ask myself what the reaction would be if Zentai had been accused of crimes as a communist rather than a Nazi. I think there would be the same expectation on Australia to hand him over to the Hungarian authorities, and that if Australia refused the request based on age, we would be hailed as communist sympathisers etc. So, damned if you do, damned if you don’t.As to the note you mention about the AVO not torturing etc…it does seem awfully naive if that is indeed true. However, again, there are limits to diplomacy.
It’s a crime against humanity that the communists were not prosecuted for their offences. I don’t think there is any question of that.
I don’t want you to think that I am so glib about the law or the decisions that are made.I know what suffering is, contrary to what you or others might think, and I know what injustice looks and feels like. So I certainly don’t take such matters lightly.As they say “The law is an ass”, which is why ongoing reform is necessary.
Sophist: “…and who was Cináed anyway? Oh.”
Oh?
Just for you, if I get a chance this weekend, I’ll watch the episode with Soros in it again.
“Maybe we were watching for different things.”
Response 1)My God, splitting hairs must be contageous around here.
Response 3)Isn’t everything on TV/online now? Reading? What’s that?
Response 4)Um, yeah, like I said, what you were reading for and what I was watching for. (goddamn perfectionists)
Response 5)I was speaking in a meta-cognitive sense, ‘watching’ as a kind of higher level consciousness.
Response 6)What the hell? Who cares?
Response 7)Pretentious nonsense all of it.
Choose your own adventure.
(hope you see the funny side)
@Mark: “there was a former AVO, a dentist in Australia” He practiced dentistry with a forged diploma but he was actually a dental technician before he became an ÁVO major head of that Hungarian KGB’s interrogation department. He was a serial killer and a torturer who fled in 1956 like so many of his comrades to Australia. His name is Tibor Vajda who had the bad luck to run into one of his victims in Sydney, a Mrs. Magda Bárdy who was Mrs. Somogyi at the time Vajda tortured her, tortured and killed her husband and kidnapped their son. Mr. Bárdy went to The Sydney Morning Herald and Channel Nine’s Sixty Minutes who published her story. In response ABC commissioned a documentary at the expense of about $280,000 defending Major Vajda who also sued Mrs. Bárdy for libel and BTW lost. That was his entire punishment for the dozens of murders and other crimes including torture, extortion, kidnapping, forgery, etc. that he committed. Australian justice I suppose… For the Australian Senate’s take on this outrage go to http://bit.ly/6m9HQS (Hansard page ECITA 63 “Senator Tchen asked”) Terror Háza has a little more detailed record of major Vajda’s sordid history ‘prettied up’ a bit unfortunately to make the store ‘politically correct.’
@Cináed: “I can’t possibly cover every possible alternative reading” True but the Irish, etc. example is not ‘alternative’ but crucial since they have solved (have they?) some very similar problems.
@Cináed, more: If we are looking for solutions Ireland, Sweden, Finland would be some pretty good places too look for ideas, yes? How did they get from a state that was very similar to ours to a state of relative stability and prosperity. Did they submit and were in return rewarded by their conquerors (like the totally subservient Germany has been rewarded by the victorious Allies)– did they fight like the IRA and forced a compromise? Would anything they did work for us? etc. “Cronulla riots… were heavily fuelled by the prevailing political rhetoric and hysteria” Exactly. It wasn’t an aberration it was SOP and belong in the same category the Zentai assassination or Lajos Polgár’s murder http://➡.ws/癙 Not only does the Australian government fail to protect the life and liberty of its citizens, it aids and abets the bastards that slaughter them like they are cattle. Some free country.. And if you had any doubts that Australia is not only a failed state but also a client state, Olmert’s visit: ‘It is one thing to have allowed a man charged with corruption and suspected of war crimes into Australia at all; it is another thing that he was listed as a distinguished guest
@Cináed, continued: ‘in Hansard — the official record of parliamentary proceedings — and received a resounding hear, hear from our elected representatives’ http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=208966 should have cleared that up pretty quick too. “Chinalco bid” China has never been interested in colonizing anyone or sending out missionaries like the English, French, Spanish, Dutch, Portuguese have. They have a Confucian mindset that is very different from yours. If they do go out of China they will live in self imposed apartheid in Chinatowns and just like the Ashkenazim they will never ever really assimilate. I have also not seen or read The Ascent of Money yet but ‘Chimerica’ sounds about as feasible as Stanley Kubrick’s fantasy world in Clockwork Orange although the Gringos have obviously been the yellow man’s burden for some time now — and ours, unfortunately — may we get rid of them soon.
@Sophist: “Written by an Irishman” Oh, he was Irish? How embarrassing… Great translation though! Could you link me to the original poem in Irish please? I searched and searched… “without revealing ones emotions” What’s wrong with revealing emotions? “they only tranlsate Hungarian Novels with heroes attractive to anglo-saxon audiences” Which would be Ashkenazim and/or Freemasons, right? Hungarian genius such as Tormay Cécile or Szabó Dezső need not apply. Don’t get me wrong, I love Márai. (Just allow me to not comment on Kertész, Faludy or Szabó… Thank you.) “sentimental and irresolute” Where have you read that? Or, what did you read that into? “Anglo-saxon stereotype” Meaning that stereotypes are automatically all false, anything Anglo-Saxon must be a lie or both?
@Pávaszem: You are ridiculous as always.
“Could you link me to the original poem in Irish please?”
Should we ask Italians to speak and write Latin. Why not demand of the Irish that they write in the language of the Fir Bolg?
Yeats never did learn Irish, though tried desperately. He relied on Lady Gregory’s translations she produced from the stories she collected. Would you also claim Joyce was not Irish? And how about Heaney? Have you even heard of Nuala Ni Dhomhnaill? Michael Hartnett? Or would you demand that he had written it Mícheál Ó hAirtnéide?
Yes, have you ever heard of Michael Hartnett? Don’t even begin to pretend. Because you should if these are your demands. He is the one poet I know who abandoned his primary mother tongue – in his case literally that language his mother mainly spoke to him in despite knowing Irish – to write only in Irish.
You’ll find this declared in poetry in “A Farewell to English” (1975) in which he famously observed about English that it is ‘the perfect language to sell pigs in’. After which he did only write poetry in Irish till his death.
You know fuck all about the Irish, their history, their language and their various struggles with nationalism.
Would it be beyond the pale to ask that you stick to the scatological stuff that suits you?
@Pávaszem
Thank you for the detailed information. These cases make a mockery of Australian justice, defending a known serial murderer while going to great lengths to harass an old man who very probably did not do what he is accused.
Hungarian courts should trial crimes done in Hungary, not Australian courts.
When an Hungarian Court asks for the extradition of a person living in another country, that should happen if no specific reason exists.
“sentimental and irresolute” Where have you read that? Or, what did you read that into? “Anglo-saxon stereotype” Meaning that stereotypes are automatically all false, anything Anglo-Saxon must be a lie or both?
I’ve read it into – as you wisely point out – converstions I’ve had with Anglo-saxons about Hungarians. How would you characterise the assumptions you’ve drawn from such conversations?
Stereotype – “a fixed idea or image that many people have of a particular type of person or thing, but which is often not true in reality”(OALD). Ok?
Psz.,
“Hungarian genius such as Tormay Cécile or Szabó Dezső need not apply”
Downloaded the English version of Tormay’s “An Outlaw’s Diary”: frontispiece claims that “The Old House” and “Stonecrop” are also available – so obviously she didn’t have any problems getting her work translated.
Found this on Szábo Dezső,
http://mek.niif.hu/00000/00017/html/f19.htm#a110
John Lukacs (you must love him!) writes “For Szabo’s apotheosis of the Magyar folk, his populism, was essentially a reaction and, therefore, largely negative – the outcome of his negation and hatred for everthing that was Habsburg, German [] “gentlemanly,” capitalist and Jewish”… You are abviously more broadminded than I thought, unless your guiding principle is my enemy’s enemy. Would be interesting to read those of his short stories which have been translated into English. Any titles?
Cin.,
You expressed an interest in my “exercise” or racist imagery, so I can’t not let you see this:
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/some_pics_from_cecile_tormay.htm
Is it just me, or does Béla Kun look shockingly like a battered version of Viktor Orbán?
Pav: Kudos for providing a link to Hansard. Unfortunately, however, I could not find the quote you mentioned “Terror Haza has a little more…” As to the ‘outrage’, I just don’t see it. What I see is a senator asking questions of a broadcaster, who then answers the questions. Was it a waste of money to produce a documentary and then not broadcast it? Undoubtedly, but I guess that’s television and ultimately, it was Australian tax money that was wasted. Was it dodgy that the partner of the defence counsel should make a documentary about the subject? Yes, I think you have a strong point there, but nevertheless, the ABC did follow its established procedure and obtained its own legal advice. As per the document you supplied, the ABC also made stipulations of the documentary maker to disclose personal relationships and relevant information that could present a conflict of interest. Also, the ABC did not broadcast the documentary after completion because of ongoing legal action not related to the station.
In reference to bias, Hansard states that: “At a point in the documentary, as the Interior Ministry archive is presented, it is stated, “all the files were prepared from the viewpoint of the state security. It’s not about the life of the people … it’s about the AVH’s view of them … That’s why it’s a very special mirror to the reality, it’s not the reality itself of course.” The intention of the film, at one level, is to indicate the impossibility of relying on extant documented material because of the nature of the 1950’s political regime. Given this, the potential unreliability of documentation was to be indicated in the program.”
Pav: Re Ireland etc…I’m not really familiar with Sweden’s or Finland’s situations, but I know that one of the things Ireland has done is to offer citizenship to émigrés of second generation. That is something Hungary decided not to do. By the way, I’m not convinced of your estimation of the IRA, though I do give them credit for participating in the peace process in the early 2000s. The latest violence that has re-emerged is disturbing to say the least. I hope that the people committing these acts don’t speak for the rest of the former IRA’s members. I know that the majority of citizens there certainly don’t support the violence.
Re: Cronulla Riots: First…define aberration. The riots were extremely unusual in Australian history, and I hope it stays that way. The prevailing rhetoric and hysteria of the govt at the time came from the conservative right-wing Howard government who promoted the view that particularly middle-eastern immigrants were potential terrorists etc. I was very much against the Howard government for the way it demonised certain segments of the community, and in the process gave voice to the red-necks among us.
Again to Zentai, this was a matter of an extradition treaty arrangement and as such was not about Zentai’s guilt or innocence, as much as it was about whether or not the request by the Hungarian government fulfilled the requirements of the treaty. The court found that it was valid and he therefore had to go. It doesn’t make a mockery of our system at all. What if Zentai had been Jewish, and the victims Magyar? Would you still be arguing the same way? Perhaps you should be submitting your thoughts to the Hungarian courts when Zentai’s trial gets underway there. As for Polgar, well…thanks for the link. This is what it says at the bottom: “Mr Polgar migrated to Australia in 1949 under the false name of Josef Kardos. He later changed his name back and proudly espoused his wartime history as a commander within the House of Loyalty, the brutal Nazi-aligned Hungarian Arrow Cross regime’s Budapest headquarters.” Again, I don’t believe there should be a statute of limitations for murder or crimes against humanity. Also, your article states that according to the son “He said there were no suspicious circumstances surrounding the death and an autopsy had been performed to establish the cause.” Although I understand your suggestion that as the article states that he was ‘hounded to his death’ can be read as murder, this is not murder, so your characterisation is emotive at best.
I had to smile at your reference to Australia as a ‘failed state’. That doesn’t leave a lot of hope for much of the world then does it? As to Olmert. Well, on that one, I do actually agree with you. I was (still am) very critical of Israel’s conduct with both Lebanon and Gaza (past, present and ongoing). I do think the world has to remind Israel that although they may have a ‘right to exist as a nation’ they don’t have the right to behave they do. Israel also needs to be reminded that it depends on the rest of the world for its survival and much of its military ability.
“Not only does the Australian government fail to protect the life and liberty of its citizens, it aids and abets the bastards that slaughter them like they are cattle. Some free country.” What the hell? Slaughtered like cattle? Bah…melodrama. Actually, I would maintain that Australian’s experience far less involvement in their lives by their government than many other places in the world. Of course we have our nutcases and just general arseholes, but that’s humanity. As per one of my favourite quotes from the Simpsons “Elephants are a lot like people Mrs Simpson, some of them are just jerks.”
You know, I realise that Australia has many issues, and I am as active as I can be in addressing these. It doesn’t offend my sensibilities to hear people bad-mouthing the country. I see it as blind luck that I ended up on this piece of dirt and not on another. So don’t think I’m just defending the country out of some mystical sense of patriotic fervour.What I don’t like though is when issues here are characterised in inaccurate ways, which I’m sure, is a similar feeling you experience when people say things about Hungary that are not completely accurate.
I agree that the Chinese don’t have colonial ambitions like the European powers of the previous empires. I’m not sure you really know the full extent of my mindset, so perhaps you shouldn’t assume on that. I also think you are not quite as correct as you might think about the ‘Confucian mindset’ of Chinese people. When migrating, many Chinese often do gravitate to groups within the community, there are large areas that are predominantly Chinese. This is true of all social/cultural groups, we gravitate towards those who are like us and speak our own language. These are not closed isolated or in ‘self-imposed apartheid’ though, and anyone who says they are has been yanking your chain. As far as assimilation, a lot of people talk about that, but very few understand what it means. The Chinese people come to Australia and bring with them a wealth of cultural knowledge and experience that influences Australian culture. It does work the other way though, with as I mentioned, education becoming the second largest industry in Australia. Assimilation is not the process of giving up one’s own culture in favour of another. It is the negotiation o f two (or more) cultures to develop a mutually acceptable sense of culture that allows each group to participate in ways that are acceptable to them and to the larger community as a whole. Perhaps before you comment on the concept of Chimerica, you should read the book or watch the DVD, otherwise it’s all just speculation.
Mark:”makes a mockery of Australian justice”? You’re living in America right? Do you really want to talk about injustice? Don’t you think you’re being just a little bit of a hypocrite? Australian justice is far from perfect, and I would never suggest otherwise, but seriously, if you’re going to base your estimation of an entire legal system on the cases presented here, then you have to expect some amount of derision from others. “An old man who very probably did not do what he is accused.” That sounds like an assumption based on your personal view of the man…we can hardly base our sense of justice on that. That really would make a mockery of us. As Viking said, crimes committed in Hungary should be tried in Hungary. If he is innocent, I’m sure he’ll be allowed back. If he’s guilty, then he should be very grateful to Australia for such a nice long holiday in the sun.
Sophist: Thanks for the link. It seems the biggest difference is the bad haircuts. Sorry, that’s ‘Dad’ humour again. I was interested in your exercise, because the politics of racism is something I had to teach in my most recent position, and something I am almost certain I will end up covering in my next. Call it professional interest, was certainly not looking for an argument. I just like to know how others are approaching the topic to see if I can learn something. Of course, the context of my work is significantly different to European/Hungarian issues though. I still haven’t had a chance to look at “Ascent” re: Soros yet. Maybe tonight.
To everyone, I hope you have a great Christmas. To those having a ‘white Christmas’ please spare a thought for those of us baking in our 40+ degree summer. …and in the words of Bruce Willis “Remember Jimmy, Satan Claus is out there and he’s just getting stronger.”
@Cináed
I was responding to Pávaszem and contrasting Australia’s preferential treatment of Tibor Vajda, ÁVO major head of that Hungarian KGB’s interrogation department with the treatment of Károly Zentai. Vajda tortured and murdered scores of people and identified by one of his victims while Zentai is accused of killing one man by unreliable hearsay evidence. That is why I said to Pávaszem “these cases make a mockery of Australian justice, defending a known serial murderer while going to great lengths to harass an old man who very probably did not do what he is accused.”
Unfortunately, similar cases would not be handled much different in America because of the disproportionate influence of Jews in America but it is changing. Election of Obama over McCain is a sign that Americans are tired of sending their sons and daughters off to wars for Israel.
Many Hungarians object to giving a pass to Communist murderers, mostly Jewish Communist murderers while going ape over hunting down someone accused of being a Nazi murderer criminal based on flimsy evidence.
Most Hungarians do not trust the post-Communist “Hungarian” courts when it comes to judging Communist and Nazi crimes. These courts ruled that Communist murderers could not be persecuted for their crimes. They ignored the Constitution in banning the Magyar Garda and denying the right of freedom of speech and peaceable assembly of Hungarians while giving a pass to gypsy murderers.
Jobbik will continue to gain in popularity if these outrages continue because Hungarians are getting tired of pushed around.
Cin.,
“I agree that the Chinese don’t have colonial ambitions like the European powers of the previous empires”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/world/asia/28iht-sudan.4374692.html
I think China in the Sudan (and other African countries) is already at the stage called informal Empire, like the relationship between Briatian and Argentina in the 1930′s. This maybe nothing like Australia’s colonial experience, but its worth reminding oursleves that British interests in India were run as a economic enterprise until the Indian Mutiny in 1857.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India#Regulating_Acts_of_Parliament
Likewise British expansion in Africa; the British South Africa Company, The Royal Niger Company, The Imperial British East Africa Company. The flag follows trade, and the only thing resisting this process is the political development of the trading ‘partner’. One could even argue that something similar has happened recently in Iraq. This applied to China in the nineteenth century, (too developed/too unitary to become a colony) and it applies to China’s expansion into Africa now (what do you think will happen next?).
Mark: ok, fair enough, but I still maintain that nothing discussed here legitimises your claim relating to Australian justice. Incidentally, I agree that the failure to prosecute for the crimes of the communists is a grave injustice, and I would never suggest otherwise.Nevertheless, that doesn’t mean that this means other similarly serious crimes shouldn’t be investigated.
Sophist, thanks.As to what will happen in the future, I think that depends on how events unfold.A guy I knew at uni did his honours thesis on whether or not China’s rise would be benign.He concludes that:
for the next ten years China will more likely remain a relatively benign power focusing on stabilizing its external environment in order to pursue its domestic priorities. In addition, even if the Chinese leadership does have aggressive designs for the long-run, it will be too constrained by domestic limitations to realize them in the foreseeable next ten years. Considering the magnitude of domestic problems it is challenged with and the extent of China’s dependence on the world (principally Western) economy, the Chinese leadership will prefer a ‘peaceful rise’ to the path of belligerence. However, the thesis also recognizes the possibility that, though less likely, China could be compelled to resort to violence under foreign pressures and misperceptions. China, then, will be a relatively benign but volatile power in the short-run, with aggression possible mainly in the long run, leaving other states with opportunities to engage China to shape its long-term intentions.
I think there are some similarities between China’s rise and the economic style of empire by economic influence, and I think the example of the Chinalco bid for Rio Tinto was a ‘testing of the waters’. I think the Chinese are more pragmatic than to seek a ‘glorious’ empire, and I doubt that there is a huge desire to provoke reaction by planting their flag on the soil of other continents. That’s not to say that they don’t still have territorial designs on what they see as their ‘rightful territory’ like Tibet and Taiwan.
will write more in a while, but have to run out the door. If you’re interested, I’ll post the thesis I mentioned on my website for you to read.
@Cináed
I based my opinion on these two cases and chided the Australian justice system for treating Communist and Nazi criminals differently. If it sounded that I was expressing an opinion about the entire Australian justice system, I did not mean to because I do not know enough about it. I was only talking about these two cases.
In America, the government does not hound you if you express controversial opinions. You can say that the Communists or the Nazis were great people and never harmed a fly. You will not be charged with any crime. You will be harassed by the Jews and hounded out of your job if you sat that the “holocaust” did not happen but the government will not be knocking on your door. In France, you could get in trouble for denying Communist or Nazi crimes or denying genocides recognized by the French government while in Germany and Austria you would d get in trouble only if you deny the Jewish “holocaust”. In Turkey, you go to jail if you publicly say that there was an Armenian genocide.
I do not know which category Australia belongs but to me it would say a lot about Australian fair play if they followed the American or at least the French example. Americans value freedom of speech and do not accept limits on political expressions while the French appear to place an equal value on all human life and punishes all those who would deny, legitimize or excuse the murder of anyone. The Austrians, Germans and Turks have no clue what freedom and freedom of expression means,
Which category does Australia belong?
On the whole, in Australia, free speech is something taken very seriously. People are not prosecuted for saying things even when very controversial. For example, recently, a Muslim cleric made it known that he had been sending letters to the families of Australian soldiers who had died in Afghanistan expressing his happiness at their loss.While what he did was pretty disgusting really, he hadn’t broken any laws and as such was not prosecuted.Generally speaking, Australians hold the value that “I might not respect what you say, but I respect your right to say it.”As an extension of this however, if someone has the right to say something, then they had better expect a vocal backlash, in which they would be put in their place; something Australians are also good at.The conservative Howard government tried to introduce legislation regarding what they called ‘anti-sedition’ laws, but which have been roundly criticised and rejected by the general public. In case you weren’t aware, Howard was kicked out in a landslide, and Rudd was elected.To us, the left of parliament has a better human rights record than the right.Don’t forget too, that while I can’t argue that some of the ‘wrong’ people have been let in, Australia has also taken refugees from all over the world including a substantial number after 1956 who weren’t AVH.Someone posted here about the public reaction during the 56 Melbourne olympics.Australia is not perfect, but it’s not exactly evil either.We get some things right.
Thanks! I will send this site to my friends.
This page looks cool. Which template have you been using?
Mark: Again, I don’t see that the two cases examined here demonstrate differential treatment of suspected Nazi or Communist criminals. Zentai was not being tried here, while Polgar was a self-confessed member of Arrow Cross. As I recall, in the case of the AVH member you mentioned, not enough reliable evidence was found to convict.
I don’t want you to think that I think that it makes it OK. If the guy is guilty, and I suspect he is, he really should be locked away, but we just can’t prosecute or not prosecute on the basis of probable guilt or innocence. It would never stand up in court, and would negate the chances of conviction if better evidence is found later. The law is imperfect and cumbersome, but it’s a hell of a lot better than the alternative of arbitrarily dispensing ‘justice’ based on the perceptions of one group or another.Afterall, that is one of the things that made the communists so hated in the first place.We don’t want to be just the same with a different colour uniform do we?
By the way, I have been present in Australian courts (never as a defendant!), and I know how thorough they are in applying the law.Most of the things people say don’t really reflect what actually happens in the justice system.
Also by the way, I have my own more personal reasons for being critical of the Hungarian ‘system’…I think it needs to be up-ended and had the cobwebs blown out.
In fairness to you Mark…if we were to talk about things that make a mockery of Australian justice, look at this:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/honeymoon-scuba-killers-12month-sentence-ludicrous-20090605-bxsh.html
I also think we are ridiculously easy on drink driving, especially so on those who cause death.I think our attitude to rape and sexual assault is also pretty backward and patriarchal.Interestingly though, women often have the worst attitude towards other women who have been assualted.
I also think we are pretty pathetic in our worship of celebrities, particularly sports stars, and that they often get treated in a way that is inconsistent with others. eg: Wayne Carey, or the Bulldogs football team gang rape case.
Contempt of court
Osama Bin laden: troops sent without ever proving he was responsible all false flag, the Israel and CIA where involved
Martin Bryant: First day media plastered as guilty but there is a massive question mark over who was responsible.
Bali Bombing: Another international False Flag, to send troops to Irag and Afghanistan.
Children Overboard: Was never on Trial for lying. In Hungary they would have demonstrated for days.
Global Warming Green house gases!! Come on this and the Swine Flu have all been fabricated by the Multi National and International organization to make MONEY!!!
Australia might appear free however once you start raising controversial questions about the above then you are labeled a freak and character assassinated, which the media and government have creatively mastered in conditioning people, well the majority anyway.
The rest are unemployed, greenie left wing uni drop outs whom hang around Byron Bay and retro cafes who are tripping out and smoking drugs, these are the people who have some truth to speak however the mainstream population look upon them and the truth exposed loses all credibility. Australian’s are blind and manipulated people, and Cinaed if you don’t see this then the government and Media have you fooled.
Kevvy, mate. I think you’re the one on drugs. Go back to Kuranda, and while you’re there, say hi to the naked band…and is that your real name? Shall I tell the rest of the posters who Kevin Bloody Wilson is?
Ho! Ho! Fucking Ho! you can’t handle the Truth!
@Cináed
Australia should have at least deported Tibor Vajda, ÁVO major head of that Hungarian KGB’s interrogation department but instead they took the word of Kuncze Gábor, a Communist “Hungarian” official that the ÁVO did not beat people knowing that it was a lie. There was no question about Vajda being Communist ÁVO. I do not like the double standard and it makes me question everything the Communists and Communist sympathizers say.
China is efficient. It is reading from an excellent script. It is forward thinking and has invested
a huge amount in “green” technology. It has a long way to go admittedly but, can be more than satisfied with its progress. Just like Hungary. Do you think.
Study the the following before you answer.
Macroeconomics Definition
The study of the behavior an economy at the aggregate level, as opposed to the level of a specific subgroups or individuals (which is called microeconomics). For example, a macroeconomist might consider the industrial sector, the services sector or the farm sector, but he/she will not consider specific parts of any of these sectors. Factors studies include inflation, unemployment, and industrial production, often with the aim of studying the effect of government policy on these factors.
Youtube check it out who is running Australia!Cut
and Paste
Stop Funding Israel Call to Human Rights Commission
Who the fu*k is Kevin Bloody Wisearse – someone trying to ruin our Christmas ?
Dear Cináed,
I regret that I could not respond sooner to your posts. I appreciate you sharing with us! It is very poignant reading. I sense that your critiques are of course tempered by real respect and concern for our people, and I appreciate that. I sincerely hope that others here will understand as well. Some may retort that those generalizations don’t apply to everybody etc. etc. If they apply to even 30% of the population, that is a problem. A vessel that has taken on 30% of it’s displacement in water is in danger of structural breakup and sinking!
I have seen a number of nations that could in theory be doing a whole lot better than they are. The poorer the nation, the more you see evidence of a cultural mindset that reinforces a lack of practical progress. That mindset itself is the product of history and shared experience. The problems of Hungary are not so unique as Hungarians would like to think. some countries are in a much worse situation.
(cont)
Kevin Bloody Wilson is an Australian ‘comedian’. I use the term in inverted comments because it’s really what I would consider to be a figurative rather than literal description. He is rude, crass and generally revolting and represents what I would consider to be the far less presentable part of Australian culture. He degrades women, has no respect for the beliefs or cultures of others, and just generally behaves like a disgusting slob.What comes out of his mouth is degrading trash talk and is not worth listening to. …so in a way, I guess the could be fitting for the person who used it here.
(cont)
Isolationaism, xenophobia, never leaving your locality, suspicion of foreigners, suspicion of commerce, are have been often called the hallmarks of the peasant mentality, and this doesn’t just apply to Hungary. I detest our feudal past, because it has kept the majority of us as peasants for a 1000 years. The jealousy and resentment you mention is the corrollary of that. It is the pettiness of the have-nots and the disempowered.
We also are manifesting not “survivor guilt”, but “survivor resentment”. Those who stayed behind and endured the conditions back home resent those who have moved on and gone elsewhere. The fact that a foreign imposed dictatorship kept people imprisoned behind our borders for almost 50 years also doesn’t help a bit. The rage and resentment is that of the impotent, of those who never felt that they were in charge of their fate and destiny. It’s not flattering to our self respect that so many have had to leave and find better opportunities elsewhere.
These resentments create division among a people who can hardly afford such a thing. We are a small nation and people, who need to eventually pull together better.
(cont)
The tendencies that you describe will take several generations to alter. It will have to begin with our youth. If our young people aren’t educated to better take advantage of the opportunities that the modern world provides, we will be delaying our national progress for decades more.
Around here I have never said that there were quick and easy solutions to our overall problems; quite the contrary. Real progress will take a lot of money and time.
Foreign Hungarians and their descendents will have to utilized rather than resented. They can be sold Hungarian bonds, can be a source of investment capital and tourist revenue. I hope our young people will understand this better than their elders someday.
The country is about to experience a windfall starting in 2012, when the gas field at Mako will start producing. We are looking at billions in future revenues. I hope that the cash flow, over 30-50 years will help make a change possible. I have encouraged my readers to invest in the Hungarian energy company, MOL, which will have a share in this developent. We all need to get involved. I don’t believe in trusting the politicians alone, as they can fill their pockets and leave the people with nothing. This has been going in Nigeria, where there is a lot of oil.
God I pray that Hungary doesn’t become Nigeria-on-the-Danube. We are in great peril from our backwardness. Bad as they are, things can actually get worse, gas fields or no. It’s up to us.
FL: Thanks very much for your post. I take your comments as a great compliment. Indeed I do have a lot of respect for Hungarians as a people, though perhaps understandably, I do struggle to deal with the attitudes of particular people sometimes.
I agree unreservedly with you about the issues not being particular to Hungarian people, but rather that as you say, anyone in a similar situation would be the same.I also think that while Hungary does have some big problems, it also has a lot more potential for improvement than other countries.The Hungarians I met were for the most part, intelligent and capable, but sometimes their attitudes prevented them from seeing beyond the limits of their ability to comprehend the world.
I genuinely hope that you are right about the coming windfall from the Mako gas field. I just hope that the coming elections will bring a government who will prepare properly for this and who will act in a way that keeps the wealth within the country.I also hope that with the development of a new industry, new skills and technologies will also come to Hungary.
I thought your analogy of the vessel with 30% of water in it was very fitting.
(cont)
I don’t want to inflame racial issues by using this example.I use it here as an allegory rather than a literal truth.
I see this period for Hungary as being very similar to the 40 years in the wilderness of the Israelites after living in Egyptian captivity.When I was a child I wondered why God could be so cruel as to wait until an entire generation had died off before allowing his own people to go into the ‘promised land’. I thought, ‘Isn’t that breaking a promise?’ What I realised is that it was very much BECAUSE of their captivity that they couldn’t recognise or understand freedom or know what to do when the regime was gone.Instead, they became bitter, complained a lot, and only saw what was wrong with the world rather than what could be better.For that reason, the generation who experienced captivity had to die off, not as punishment, but more because the skills needed for survival are very different to those of thriving.You know, it makes me sad when people attack me here and sometimes make very personal statements.It suggests to me that as you say, a lot more time is going to have to pass before many realise that foreigners are not their enemies, but that there are those of us who really desire much more for Hungary and are willing to do our bit to help.I am encouraged when I see that there are Hungarians who are embracing both Hungarian culture and an openess to the outside world, and I only hope that this attitude prevails over radicalism.
Hello Cinead,
I believe in practicing a form of judo, not just in self defense but in politics, business and foreign relations as well. In judo, you take your opponent’s lunges and deflect them or turn it back upon him. You have to be this way when you are the small guy and up against bigger, richer, more powerful and better armed people! Just because we come from a small nation or nationality, doesn’t mean we have to be small and think small. Others want to “play us”; we should think about “playing them”.
Take the EU for example. Why not ask them for another 60 billion? If they don’t want to cough up, then we can “threaten to leave” (I mean that as posturing!). Keep in mind that they have already lent us at least 60 billion, so they have a lot invested in the “relationship”. They are also invested in the idea that it was a “loan”, hopefully that it would someday be repaid. Appearances have to be kept up you know. Given these realities, I wouldn’t hesitate to ask for more money! Why not? Seen this way, who really stands to lose, they or us? They may say no today to such a request, but tomorrow they may change their minds! I wouldn’t dream of divorcing someone who was so rich and weak willed!
Certainly ask the EU for more money. But will they play ball and/or judo? Maybe “deflect” the lunge
for cash and ask (like we all do)what happened to
the other millions/billions of euros you’ve already had? It seems it hasn’t made a jot of difference to your economy and nor has it helped the people. So why should we lend you yet more?
A:”Because it is Christmas.”
HUMBUG!
@ FL
Smart move. (“I wouldn’t dream of divorcing someone who was so rich and weak willed!”)
I wouldn’t either and could quickly forgive minor little flaws like “weak willed”. (Ok, just kidding)
On the other hand I would not bite (criticize 24/7) the hand that feeds me and would try to prove I am responsible with the monies given to me.
Otherwise, I would be afraid of the consequences; like the money would stop and the sucker, I mean my husband would cut his losses.
Dear Scrooge!
I meant what I said as a provocation to my countrymen. They are always thinking like “victims”, at the mercy of forces beyond their control. The idea of confronting and negotiating with power is new to them, and I am trying to re-orient their thinking.
Elsewhere on this website I have expressed skepticism, like you, that they would know how to constructively use such sums of money. I honestly don’t believe they would, in light of our inexperience and corruption. What I was really trying to get across is that one should be a man and stand up to those who pull the strings, and don’t be afraid to make demands. Many of our people just want to withdraw from the world and from international institutions, and that also would be a dead end.
I’m not saying the EU should give us more money, I’m saying that we should have the balls to not be intimidated by them. One educational step at a time.
On the way to the “countinghouse”,
Laci
Dear Olga,
With the sums in question, the EU has adopted us! We are their “wards”. They have invested far more in us than we have in them. That may seem like we are in a subservient position, but then their loans have made them vulnerable to continuing the realtionship at all costs.
Keep in mind that the analogy with a spouse only goes so far. The money lent to us did not belong to the politicians who authorised the deal. It was borrowed capital, secured by the tax-payers of Western Europe. If it all goes bad, then not just individuals, but political parties and govts. take the heat. Also, our relationship with the EU could easily outlast a typical marriage. We are now “wedded”, possibly for generations. As a Hungarian patriot and pragmatist, I say make the most of it. I think we will get more “shopping money” in the future! Trust me on that; I wasn’t born yesterday!
With warmest regards for the holiday,
Laci
@Mark: “mockery” It’s a lot more than that. The ABC debacle, the huge effort and expense involved in the pseudo-documentary that ABC chickened out of showing after the lost law suit but that they have nevertheless awarded some chickenshit prize and kept pushing at international, read cosmopolitan, film festivals that are probably their own franchises (Seasons Of Revenge, director Janet Bell, ABC, finalist Dendy Awards Ethnic Affairs category, Sydney Film Festival 1999, finalist New York Film Festival http://bit.ly/6oA1Gs ) the huge legal expense defending the good dentist http://bit.ly/8Ersyh all prove the apparat’s power and influence in Australia long before K. Rudd’s reign who is openly and obviously a Marxist/Zionist puppet. Major Scum typically didn’t even have to worry about practicing dentistry with a forged diploma…
@Cináed: “Terror Haza has a little more…” in Hungarian and very limited online: ‘kihallgató tiszt… a veséjét rugdosva követelte, hogy tegyen vallomást, mert a férje már úgyis mindent bevallott. Amikor pedig a… kisgyermekéért zokogott, vallatója azt mondta neki: „Te büdös kurva, neked már nincs gyereked. Intézetbe adtuk, ahol jó kommunistát nevelnek belõle…’ http://➡.ws/錽排 How could you even imagine the constant fear, the TERROR, of those years: the ‘csengőfrász’ when people literally shit their pants or had heart attacks if the door bell rang after 9 PM (the ÁVH always picked you up at night) “As to the ‘outrage’, I just don’t see it” Your national broadcasting company commissions the partner of a Dzerzhinsky Academy (академия им. Ф. Э. Дзержинского — you read Russian, right?)trained ÁVH torturer’s defense counsel at the cost of $270,000 to do a hatchet job on one the monster’s victims and you don’t see the outrage? What do you see then? A quest for truth and justice? The bitch deserved it? You’re into S&M yourself? Please advise, kindly… The title of the documentary was Seasons of Revenge that right off the bat suggests that Mrs. Bárdy is a revenge hungry shrew whereas we should forgive and forget — unless of course we’re seeking additional pounds of flesh as is our birthright even if the case is as ancient as the road compared to the crimes we ourselves have just committed and have every intention to commit again.
@Cináed, continued: “ABC did follow its established procedure” That’s what I was afraid of… “Also, the ABC did not broadcast the documentary after completion because of ongoing legal action not related to the station.” BACKED OFF facing the legal threat of a zillion $ lawsuit then turned around and gave the piece of shit some award and keeps peddling it at film festivals and TV stations globally to this day. “The intention of the film, at one level, is to indicate the impossibility of relying on extant documented material because of the nature of the 1950’s political regime. Given this, the potential unreliability of documentation was to be indicated in the program.
Meaning that Mrs. Bárdy, a ‘holocaust survivor,’ recipient of the Order of Australia is a liar slandering the angelic Dr. Szell, I mean Vajda… (Imagine the chances of a goy in her predicament) They also don’t have any qualms relying on the same type of ‘documentation’ when they need another human sacrifice (such as Zentai) for their perverted religion “one of the things Ireland has done is to offer citizenship to émigrés of second generation. That is something Hungary decided not to do.” Not ‘Hungary’ the APPARAT fearing that an un-brainwashed émigré élite that has never learned helplessness http://tr.im/Ijll could successfully challenge their franchise.
@Cináed, more: “Cronulla… rhetoric and hysteria… from the conservative right-wing Howard government There is a difference of Coke and Pepsi between Howard and Krudd… “Again… Zentai… matter of an extradition treaty arrangement” Can you provide at least one other precedent when that particular treaty was, in a similar case, actually honored? “Hungarian government fulfilled the requirements of the treaty” It clearly did not. The statute of limitations for murder in Hungary is 20 years. And the evidence the communist government of Hungary used were by its own admission typically pure fiction ‘a minisztérium már az ötvenes években megállapította, hogy a véghatározaton szereplõ internálási indokok valótlanok… http://www.terrorhaza.hu/hirek/rolunk/egy_bnos_jogos_bnhdese.html on par with the ‘AVO/KGB didn’t torture’ certificate for Vajda. “The court found that it was valid and he therefore had to go.” A Zionist occupied court… “What if Zentai had been Jewish, and the victims Magyar?” Such as major Vajda’s victims? “Would you still be arguing the same way?” Yes. “An old man who very probably did not do what he is accused.” That sounds like an assumption” So does his ‘guilt.’
@Cináed, cont.: “As I recall, in the case of the AVH member you mentioned, not enough reliable evidence was found to convict…” You recall wrong. It was actually the friendly dentist that sued his victim for libel and lost. “we just can’t prosecute or not prosecute on the basis of probable guilt or innocence.” But we can extradite or hound old men to death on the same basis. “As for Polgar, well… This is what it says at the bottom…” I linked you to Murder, Inc.’s own website since the original article in The Australian with all other articles sympathetic to Mr. Polgár in The Age and other Australian or international media have been systematically deleted. The actual facts and circumstances of his murder and, yes, it was murder, are very ‘different,’ to put it mildly. “this is not murder” Legally perhaps it is ‘just’ aggravated harassment causing death — which may not be ‘murder’ legally but it sure is a KILLING and it certainly IS a felony. The inhumane cruelty with which they hounded him to death are ethically and morally the equivalents of the assassinations of Uwe Barschel, Jürgen Möllemann, Arafat, Anna Lindh or Haider. (Have you BTW noticed the very Anna Lindh like MO that has recently surfaced in Italy?)
@Cináed, continued: They commit these horrible murders and pick powerless victims for their sick torture-sacrifices because the Shoa (business) must go on — and demonstrate their power: they can kill anyone at any time or fleece you at will and you can’t do anything about it is the message. “I had to smile at your reference to Australia as a ‘failed state’. By Chomsky’s definition in the book you recommended…
“As to Olmert. Well, on that one, I do actually agree with you.” And, how do you explain it? How can shit like that happen? “Israel also needs to be reminded that it depends on the rest of the world for its survival and much of its military ability.” Yessir! But, how and why do they get those billions of dollars and euros — what’s Australia’s Mossad tax again? — in the first place? “Australian’s experience far less involvement in their lives by their government than many other places in the world.” ‘Other places suck worse’ is just not good enough… “What I don’t like though is when issues here are characterised in inaccurate ways, which I’m sure, is a similar feeling you experience when people say things about Hungary that are not completely accurate.” You mean Australia wasn’t originally a penal colony and has the gene pool that implies? Or Wolf Creek and the Proposition are pure fiction? 
@Cináed, more: “I’m not sure you really know the full extent of my mindset,” But knowing both ‘you people’
and the Chinese pretty well I know that you and I have the mentality of identical twins compared to the Chinese mindset. “When migrating, many Chinese often do gravitate to groups within the community… This is true of all social/cultural groups,” There are huge differences between Chinatowns and Germantowns or Little Italys — I mean HUMONGOUS. “The Chinese people come to Australia and bring with them a wealth of cultural knowledge and experience that influences Australian culture.” Just like ‘Jews,’ yes? “It does work the other way though, with as I mentioned, education becoming the second largest industry in Australia.” Again, just like Jews are fanatical about education and despite all that they don’t really assimilate. “Assimilation is not the process of giving up one’s own culture in favour of another.” You are confusing ‘multiculturalism’ with assimilation… ( I’ll be back… 
)
Multiculturalism destroys all cultures. The Jews that observe their religion do not assimilate. It is their choice. There are perhaps 2 million gypsies
in Hungary and, at a guess, probably 80% have little or no education. Goodness knows how many are unemployed. My next door neighbor was burgled on Xmas Eve. Two gypsies have been arrested. Another neighbor has had property and goods stolen on no less than three occasions. Gypsies were arrested once again for the thefts.
Jews, Blacks, Chinese, and Asians, that emigrate in large numbers make a living for themselves and somehow find education for themselves and their children. They become useful members of society.
The gypsies in Hungary? I’m not so sure about.
Irrespective of viewpoints gypsies are a huge problem for themselves and Hungary.
Multiculturalism destroys all cultures
QC at December 28, 2009 12:40 AM
—
So we ned up with out culture or our culture is enriched with other’s?
-
Sorry to hear about the burglaries, but you must hand it to the Hungarian Police – they catch the criminals extremely fast.
Where I originate from, the clearance-percentage of burglaries are really low, in Hungary it seems to be very high, given your own examples.
Bálint Borbély, an 80 year old farmer was found savagely murdered in his house, on Saturday, in Ráckeve. The old farmer lived alone and was still active making a living out of producing and selling crops.
Police are close-lipped and the mainstream media is dead silent about the case (Note: these facts, might tell you right away, who the murderers could have been).
There were no signs of brake in into the fortified house, which indicated that the farmer knew the culprits and let them in.
He was bludgeoned to death with a bland object and his house was ransacked; the pillows and the blanket were ripped open, obviously the murderers looking for money. According to locals the farmer, when he was younger, made business with gypsy “customers” as well.
Ráckeve is a heavily gypsy infested region of the country. A year ago, a woman was murdered and her body was dumped in the garbage container. There is no suspect for that murder either, and not surprisingly, police and the mainstream media keep quiet about the incident, ever since.
(barikad.hu – hungarianambiance.com)
Gypsies broke into the house of a family, in Ráckeve; as a result, a mother and her three children suffered injuries and have been taken to hospital. According to sources the cause of the dispute is usury.
The family asked help from police but the request was rejected due to “lack of resources”; then, the New Hungarian Guard was called. Right after an army of police invaded the town.
The Hungarian Guard is at the scene, with regular units ready to defend the family. Police, too, arrived with paddywagons and rather than dealing with gypsy criminals, they are harassing the members of the New Hungarian Guard. Obviously, police have been following the order of the gypsy-crime-sponsoring regime.
Gypsies are bragging about their connections with higher level government agencies.
According to sources on the ground, there were shootings in the area but police still preoccupied with the presence of the Guard. Robert Kiss, the captain of the New Hungarian Guard said special emergency units have been sent into the area that are invisible to police to defend the Hungarian population of Ráckeve, if necessary.
Not surprisingly, the liberal mainstream media keeps quiet about the incident.
(barikad.hu – hungarianambiance.com)
@Law
We have a few of these on this list…
Izraeli hozzászólás kommandó az interneten
http://barikad.hu/node/43590
barikad.hu – hungarianambiance.com
Please stop posting links to these sites! They are lying like hell just to incite people against gays, jews, gypsies, you name it!
@Law and Mark:
You’ll never learn! Nobody except you jobo loonies believes any of that crap these jobo sites publish, they are so laughable in their twisting the truth that any sane/normal person immediately realises what nonsense they spout …
Have a good day in that pile of feces you call home …
Dear Mark
Yes Wolfi and his gang are treacherous examples of Israeli agents trying to smear the Truth. Seems the factual Truth hurts them even when all the facts are presented.
Keep the Truth flowing, it’s like Holy water being tossed on a vampire.
The Hungarian Guard is at the scene, with regular units ready to defend the family
…
Robert Kiss, the captain of the New Hungarian Guard said special emergency units have been sent into the area that are invisible to police to defend the Hungarian population of Ráckeve, if necessary
Law at December 28, 2009 8:03 AM
—
So if it is the ‘Hungarian Guard’ or the ‘New Hungarian Guard’ is a good question, then the ‘Hungarian Guard’ has been legally dissolved and the ‘New Hungarian Guard’ is not a registered organisation. So both are illegal.
If the ‘whatever Hungarian Guard’ wanted to help this family they would send in some ‘friends of the family’ (without uniforms) who would sit in the garden of the family.
Would probably not disturb anyone.
But this is not the aim of ‘whatever Hungarian Guard’, it is to disturb everyone who do not agree with them. That is why they are roaming the streets as just another gang of street-gangsters and meeting the response such a gang should be met with.
-
The question is of the invisible ‘special emergency units’ that the ‘New Hungarian Guard’ have sent are armed and how many of their members are working as ‘Rent-A-Cop’.
From the beginning there has been a connection between a few Guard Companies and ‘whatever Hungarian Guard’. Participating in this activity should be enough to lose their license.
And not being armed and trained for violent situations, what are they suppose to do?
Stare at the opponents?
Viking
MG are non violent people demonstrating with Christian values. Gandhi demonstrated peacefully and conquered the British Empire. MG highlight where the issues are lying in the Nation of Hungarians.
Your kind are supporting the removal of Palestinian organs, Israel scum.
Dear Kevin,
Thanks for your observation. Glad that you are one of those who could read the article. It is comical how few people can read Hungarian text I post here from time to time. Where do they get the audacity to try to tell Hungarians how they should run their country? This is typical for this and many other lists:
Arra a kérdésre, hogy a kommentárírók, akik ezen a projekten dolgoznak magukat, mint normális internet felhasználónak adják ki, a projektvezetője csak így válaszolt: világos. A mi embereink nem fogják megmondani: „Halló, én az izraeli külügyminisztérium Hasbara(propaganda)-osztályától vagyok, és én csak azt akartam mondani, hogy… Nem fogják magukat szükségszerűen izraelinek kiadni. Azt fogják írni, hogy ők normális internetfelhasználók és a kommentárjaikat is magánvéleményként fogják átadni, de az üzeneteik egy bizonyos vonalra támaszkodnak, amit a Külügyminisztérium készített elő.”
These “people” just sit on some lists, not really participating, only monitoring and watching like vultures. When they see something critical of Israel, they attack the person who dared post it. It does not interest them that it is true; all they want is to stifle the free flow of information.
I am convinced that there are no Hungarian Nazis. Hungarians have looked with disdain on Hitler’s boys for their arrogance and brutality. Murdering people because they were Jews, some of them their neighbors, was repulsive to Hungarians. Hungarians and Poles have similar views of Nazis and Communists; they see them as scumbags. The Nazi way of abusing, exterminating others and taking their land for their own people is not the Hungarian way. It is the way of the new Nazis and their home is Israel.
Your kind are supporting the removal of Palestinian organs, Israel scum.
Law at December 28, 2009 10:54 AM
—
Law, you are a lying scum.
You know I am against the Jewish State of Israel, I have stated that several times.
I have spent years of my life to support the Palestinians, you have done nothing.
Mark and Law,
When will you actually do something *for* the Palestinians?
Yesterday, Sunday December 28, was the Day of Remembrance of the attack on Gaza.
Did you do anything to support the Palestinians that day, or any other day?
Do you support the efforts that the EU should start direct discussions with Hamas, or not?
Are you just discussing the Palestinian question to win cheap political points at home?
What do you think that the Palestinians regard people like you, who use their suffer for their own political means?
Or, who cares, the Palestinians are not ‘Tiszta Magyar’ so they are anyway second class people.
What I do know is you’re a Demagogy, Jewish Israel supporter, Anti Hungarian, Truth twister, and Neo liberal Con Artist. I have no interest in debating with your kind, who is as crooked as a dog’s leg, trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes. Wolf in Sheeps clothing.
The Lord Jesus Christ warned His followers, “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep?s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves (Matt. 7:15).
Law (The Lying Scum)
Throwing the Bible on me is rather useless then I am an Atheist.
That you would understand anything that is not Black or White many posters have understood long time ago. If you are not with Jobbik, you must be Jewish, which is the worst your kind can imagine.
I think your kind make the alleged Jewish Jobbik-member feel very welcome.
You never feel that maybe Morvai is not really a ‘Tiszta Magyar’ then she mothered a few Jewish children?
Must be hard for you to grasp all these shades of grey that makes normal reality.
I see that you still not answer what you have done for the Palestinians, ever in your life, except just being an anti-Jewish idiot.
Just to dedicate this song to you also, Mark is not alone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlcFrIHe0yQ
“Антисемит” – An Antisemite’s song – Владимир Высоцкий
Not that I think you understand it, that would actually mean some intelligence, something you repeatedly show lack of.
@Vándorló: Aren’t I lucky you’re past ‘conflict mode…’ “I’m past conflict mode… there is little to be gained intellectually or otherwise…” http://bit.ly/8SnXhM Do you ever write anything that you actually MEAN, kóbór ló, vagy csak a szád jár mint a kacsa segge? “Should we ask Italians to speak and write Latin” No, we shouldn’t since they speak and write Eyetalian or haven’t you heard? To illustrate my last remark (Jonah in the whale, Noah in the ark) our own much revered Erik D’Amato speaks and writes English because he is a (Quiet) American. If he were Eyetalian he would SPEAK Eyetalian. Isn’t that right, Erik? “Why not demand of the Irish that they write in the language of the Fir Bolg?” For the same reason we don’t ask Hungarians to write in the language of the Halotti beszéd — because languages evolve unless they die or are killed like Irish was killed or at least mortally wounded by the English ( #$%^&*#@! ) “Would you also claim Joyce was not Irish?” Was he? What makes him Irish anyway? “And how about Heaney?” I don’t know, I have never heard of him but I see that he received the ‘David Cohen prize in literature’ so he must be a literary giant… “Have you even heard of Nuala Ni Dhomhnaill?” No, but she sounds _very interesting_. Thank you for the reference.
@Vándorló, more: Mícheál Ó hAirtnéide too… Thank you. I just ordered ‘A Farewell to English…’ “their various struggles with nationalism” NATIONALISM? No shit! Sinn Féin and the Óglaigh na hÉireann have fought NATIONALISM? And I thought they’ve fought the Goddamnenglish! (It’s one word, right?) How could I have been so wrong? “stick to the scatological stuff” Wow! Is that what you’re into? How about golden showers? ( Although I wouldn’t piss on you myself if you were on fire…
Viking nice to see you admit you are a useless no good for nothing waste of space.
Viking. We have our own “Palestinians” right here in Hungary. They call them gypsies/ciganyok.
One kilometer from where I live there is a street where only gypsies dwell. They have no education, poor housing, no jobs, and no future. Yett they breed like rabbits?
A similar situation exists across the pusztas of Magyarorszag.
If you think so much of, and want to dedicate the rest of your life to, the Palestinian cause, why not get yourself a one-way-ticket out there right now?
We certainly will not miss you – you nefarious numbskull!
@Sophist: “Stereotype – a fixed idea or image that many people have of a particular type of person or thing, but which is often not true in reality” Meaning that it often IS true… So, what’s your own take on Hungarians? How sentimental and irresolute are we? ( Although Cináed just said that we may be hotheaded but eventually calm down or something to that effect unless I’ve misunderstood… What say you, Cini? ) “Downloaded the English version of Tormay’s “An Outlaw’s Diary”: frontispiece claims that “The Old House” and “Stonecrop” are also available – so obviously she didn’t have any problems getting her work translated.” All published in the 1920′s… How mendacious. “John Lukacs (you must love him!)” I sure do… You just wanted to see if you can get away with this, right? “You are abviously more broadminded than I thought,”
) Just how broadminded did you think I am? Szabó Dezső was a ‘lost soul’ like Koestler (you love him, yes?) I’ve never agreed with him but I respect him like I respect Chomsky for his honesty. He founded Élet és Irodalom BTW and you know what THAT has become, right? It’s an allegory of our whole civilization… “Would be interesting to read those of his short stories which have been translated into English. Any titles?” Like I said, NONE, as far as I know… ( Can you seriously not read Hungarian? :-O )
@Sophist, continued: “Is it just me, or does Béla Kun look shockingly like a battered version of Viktor Orbán?” I’ve been posting about this ever since I read Paris 1919 http://bit.ly/57oSBL and came across a picture http://bit.ly/5Pm9hU of a young Béla Kun: They look like identical twins! An important reason I am sure SZDSZ picked him as their youth leader. (FIDESZ was originally the youth movement of SZDSZ — just like the Communist Youth League KISZ was the youth movement of the Communist Party by whatever name they were known at any given time — until FIDESZ was retooled for its current gig. “China in the Sudan” The New York Times… You sure have the inside track, don’t you, Sop? Anyway, they piss and moan about the Chinks grabbing Sudanese crude because Israel wants it… That’s right it’s USrael NOT Chimerica! (I just saw the first hour of the Ascent of Money BTW and I think Ferguson is ridiculous…) The question anyway is if China would be better for us than the Anglosphere… Don’t you think?
Anything would be better than anything at the moment. Iran is in turmoil and, like North Korea, believes that the nuclear bomb is its saviour.
Russia is in the process of delivering a “defense package” to Iran.
Putin, (like us all is getting worried)and the gap between him and Medvedev is widening as to how Russia should act on the world stage.
The ancients predicted the world would end in 2012.
Maybe they will be proved correct?
It would be a privilege for the unenlightened (me ) to hear more from you Pávaszem, on the history of the political parties in Hungary.
I mean that most sincerely folks!
@Viking: “Hungarian courts should trial crimes done in Hungary, not Australian courts” The ‘crime’ the ÁVH (read KGB) major sued his victim for was ‘LIBEL’ committed in Australia. The mere fact that the bastard had the nerve to do that can only mean that he wasn’t a runaway but was probably sent to Australia by the apparat knew that the apparat will support him by whatever means necessary as they indeed did getting him a high-powered attorney, media whores in the form of the ABC ‘documentary,’the ÁVH/KGB action in Hungary: Eörsi & partners, Császárné http://hetivalasz.hu/itthon/mai-idok-szocija-16549 of the interior ministry… Have you ever been present in a Hungarian kangaroo (no offense, Cini) court BTW Viking? I’ve sued in civil court twice in rump Hungary. Both times either the judge or the ‘experts’ read bag men the judge sent me to solicited me for bribes and the lawsuits went on for decades. As I later found out Hungarian judges usually solicit both sides in a lawsuit that they keep going until both plaintiff and defendant are bled dry and then they bring a neutral ruling citing ‘lack of evidence,’ etc. Unless of course you or your opponent are members of the network in which case the non-apparat member will be swiftly dealt with…
@Viking, continued: like Magda Bárdy was dealt with Holo survivor or not. For further depth here http://➡.ws/얓 is an open letter from her to Kurcsány or refer to my comments on Politics.hu’s excellent coverage http://bit.ly/2qsF4S of ‘our’ corruption problem. ( PS: Have you had a Donald Ducky http://➡.ws/榴 god Jul, Lapp? Cuddled up to Ingaling…
)
We have our own “Palestinians” right here in Hungary. They call them gypsies/ciganyok
fullánk at December 28, 2009 2:01 PM
—
True and your compassion for them is only shared with the Israeli Nationalist’s sympathy for the Palestinians.
As I always said Slovakia and Israel are two good examples on a Nationalist’s Wet Dream.
You are the same, maybe you have the same gene pool?
@ Wolfi
Saw your post on another thread – Happy New Year to you too. Christmas was great – family time.
Looked at some of the postings this morning – nice to see that hate and name calling is alive and well and nothing changed over the holidays. (I think you and Viking became Israeli spies. How did you “get in”? I thought you were a Communist Nazi before. Oh well, you must be a man of many talents. )
BTW – one cannot deny the “Roma problem” – poverty, lack of education, lack of employment opportunities etc lead to crime. Same as in any other country.
Do you have any idea of what solution the sane people in Hungary propose to alleviate or at least lessen the problem? Is there a European country that found a better solution than Hungary?
Any anwer I can think of requires money ( for example: early education opportunities for Roma kids – starting at day-care level. That costs money which Hungary does not have. I mentioned attending a useless conference about “Eradicating Child Poverty in Canada” – all solutions mentioned required government funding of various programs – funding that’s not available.)
“see you” soon
@Pávaszem: Apologies if my response came across as petulant.
On Joyce being Irish, I would start by reading his works, it’s plain enough from there: “—The language in which we are speaking is his before it is mine. How different are the words home,Christ,ale,master, on his lips and on mine! I cannot speak or write these words without unrest of spirit. His language, so familiar and so foreign, will always be for me an acquired speech. I have not made or accepted its words. My voice holds them at bay. My soul frets in the shadow of his language.” part/chapter5 p205 ‘A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man’
On Heaney, surely you jest? Start with “Sheela na Gig”.
On the struggle for the Irish language read about Fr. Dinneen, not just his dictionary, but his life and work http://www.irishtextssociety.org/dinneen.htm
p.s. It’s spelt ‘kóbor’.
“A thousand times, yes!” great Joyce stuff… gotta like the Joyce…
So, does anybody here have any recommendations for Hungarian literature that might make good winter reading? Preferably works that are available in English if possible… The last person in my family to speak Hungarian died about 90 years ago…
Dear Bystander!
I warmly commend you connecting with our heritage and culture! It is especially gratifying to hear from a person of Hungarian descent who tells us that the last person who spoke Hungarian in their family died 90 years ago, and yet is here wanting to understand their roots. Cheers for you!
Allow me to be the first to step up to the plate and help you out. I figured the work would have to 1)be in english, 2)be viewable online, and 3)be relevant to our history and help you to understand better where Hungarians are coming from.
Towards those objectives I recommend the work of Cecile Tormay “An Outlaw’s Diary”(1923), viewable at:
http://www.archive.org/stream/outlawsdiary00tormuoft#page/n11/mode/2up
This is a full scan of the entire book, and even allows you to flip each page, as if you were reading a real book. The content is also downloadable. The website is called “Open Library”, and they scan old books on which copyright has expired and make them available online.
Her book came out in two volumes; make sure you read them both.
Tormay wrote about her experiences with the “Soviet Republic of 1919″, headed by Lenin’s Hungarian disciple, Béla Kun. To paraphrase an old expression, “Soviet Republics” are like sausages, you don’t want to see them made! It’s like “Uncle Joe” Stalin said, to make an omlette, you must break some eggs!
(cont)
Viking: “You know I am against the Jewish State of Israel, I have stated that several times.”
Law is right about you. You are a liar and a fool to expect anyone to believe your lie. Besides, it is not about Jews having a country of their own. Many years ago, I mentioned to an older Hungarian friend that it was not just to create Israel at the expense of Palestinians. He responded that if they were not there, more of them would be here. Let the Jews have their own state side-by-side with a Palestinian state within the boundaries defined by the UN resolution creating Israel.
The problem is that the new Nazis, the Jew Nazis do not want that. They want it all and they will keep on murdering Palestinians in the Israeli Nazi concentration camps and stealing their lands until they will not have anything left. That is what is wrong with Nazi Israel, not that it exists.
Hungarians, patriotic Hungarians are rightfully concerned with the aggressive takeover of Hungary by Jew Nazis. Jobbik may be the only party that openly stated that Hungarians do not want Israel to turn Hungary into another Palestine. They have reason to be concerned because the ruling Jewish/Communist MSZP/SZDSZ government is working with Israel to colonize Hungary. Hungarians are not the aggressors, the Jews are.
No discussion dealing with Hungarian issues is complete without discussing the Israeli threat. Those Hungarian who cooperate with Israel should be tried for treason.
Well Hungary became one huge “omlette” by Stalin’s definition and a great many “eggs” were broken!
Why is it important for you to review the events of 1919? Besides the fact that a lot of fateful things happened to Hungarians in that year, you have to understand that we have been ruled for generations by a lethal chain of cause and effect that spans many regimes and dictatorships.
Unlike the US people, we don’t have the luxury of viewing historical events in isolation. For us, one person’s injustice was provoked by another person’s injustice, which in turn provokes yet more injustice from someone else. For us, the problem, even to this day, is how to STOP the madness; how to rise above our historical process.
Sovietism was brutal and ugly, but it would never have happened without a 1000 years of feudalism. Back then in eastern Europe, people who supported the old fuedal/clerical order were called “Whites”. Those who felt it was wrong and needed change were called “Reds”. Those who felt the reds had gone too far or were wrong eventually became the “Browns” (aka Nazis, Fascists).
(cont)
For bystander, cont:)
In 1918, Hungary, being “married” to Austria and on the losing side of the first world war, found itself dismembered by the allies. After the abdication of the Austrian emperor, Charles, there followed a weak govt headed by the well meaning but air headed Count Károlyi. He didn’t understand the peril we were in and did nothing to prevent the country from being partitioned.
This resulted in the chaos that Tormay describes. She writes from an aristocratic perspective, but it still makes good contemporary “witness literature”.
The “Soviet Republic” was ended by our Admiral Horthy, a landowning aristocrat who rode into “sinful Budapest” on his white horse, with the blessings of the British govt. who were very alarmed to see another Communist nation emerge in Europe after Russia.
Horthy was a “White”, who over time took on a “Brown” coloration when he became close to Hitler. Horthy was actually what in Spain and Latin America is known as a “Falangist”. He was our General Franco. Falangism stands for almost all land being owned by a few people and the church, with the masses kept as peasants. It was politically and economically non-progressive and reactionary.
Because Hitler didn’t think Horthy was suffiently “Brown”, he was replaced eventually by a full “Brown” named Szálasi. Hitler and his cohorts were defeated in 1945 and replaced by a new wave of “Reds”.
@Viking. You always manage to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator. In addition, and on most occasions, refuse to understand what has been written, or said.
I have never come across a more bigoted blockhead than you.
Convinced of your own self-righteousness and crusade (excuse the metaphor) to help the Palestinians, you seem to forget about the deep-rooted problems in Hungary. Gypsies, for sure, are an integral part of those problems. Many are uneducated and live in squalor, have no jobs, and resort to theft to survive. I see this everyday in many villages across Hungary.
You are a fraud and a hypocrite and this forum and Hungary and its people can well do without you.
PS. I don’t give a damn about Israel, America, Canada, Jobbik etc. Take off that tin hat, and join us in the real world you senile dimwit!
(To bystander cont)
The unfortunate history recounted above had other toxic side effects. It just so happened that Jews wer prominent in both of the “Red” waves of 1919 and post 1945. This created a lot of resentment that lasts to this day, and may help you to understand better what is going on on this website, and where all the primal passion is coming from.
Welcome to your heritage bystander! The problem for us is how to make things right, when things were never right for a long time. “Moe” slaps “Larry”, who in turn slaps “Curly”, who in turn realizes he has nobody to slap. It reflects the domino effect of our history, except that unlike a Three Stooges film, it’s not at all funny.
Law is right about you. You are a liar and a fool to expect anyone to believe your lie
Mark at December 28, 2009 7:25 PM
—
What a wonderful coincident that Mr Farkas mentions the very book that you morons think is today’s reality:
Cecile Tormay “An Outlaw’s Diary”(1923)
Just go to page 285 and every one will see this open hatred against every one suspected to be a Jew.
It is not new, it has nothing to do with Hungary, Hungary is just the front-line in this war, in 1919 and now and have always been that in the heads of these bigots.
So, in the end, you cannot explain my ‘lie’ and you just use other peoples despair to further your own agenda, so what are you?
You will never speak your thoughts about Israel in the US, then you are to afraid of losing your NRA-membership and your tax-dollar sponsors the very state where the “aggressive takeover of Hungary by Jew Nazis” is happening.
How can you see yourself in the morning, knowing that today your US tax-dollar will continue this.
-
If you have not understood it before (just explains your intelligence level) I am against any Jewish/Christian/Muslim NationalState, then I believe in the total disconnection between State and Church as being one of the fundamental rights citizens of a State should have.
This I have written tens of times about, it is just that in your small mind there are no grey cats, just ‘Tiszta Magyars’ and Jews in a discussion.
The problem is that both you and Mark is neither, just StormFront imports.
Convinced of your own self-righteousness and crusade (excuse the metaphor) to help the Palestinians, you seem to forget about the deep-rooted problems in Hungary. Gypsies, for sure, are an integral part of those problems
QC at December 28, 2009 7:47 PM
—
The reason why I have mentioned the Palestinians is this barrage of making political profit in Hungary on their suffering, something I find really disgusting given my own experiences on the Occupied Areas.
You may have another opinion on that.
-
That the integration, *not* assimilation, of the Roma minority is a big problem is not news. The case is acute all over the former East-Block.
I do not share the aim or methods of organisations like Magyar Garda to be the solutions for this problem.
I also point out integration, then I do not think we should demand that any minority should be assimilated. The latter means it disappears.
Integration means it has to change some things, but will still be regarded as different.
-
Did I offend you by joking about the high clearance-rate for crimes you described?
Maybe I was trying to hint that the Police maybe like to take the easy route and arrest the nearest Roma, instead of really investigating the crime?
This is also part of the Roma-problem. In Hungary no one is without guilt in this problem and all ones need to chip in and give Roma that try a good chance.
-
But I hope the victims got their stuff back, then we know it was good Police work and just not filling the qouta.
Mark wrote today:
…the ruling Jewish/Communist MSZP/SZDSZ government is working with Israel to colonize Hungary.
How crazy must one be to believe this kind of crap ?
It’s no use trying to discuss with those loonies.
BTW: Is this also the official position of Jobbik ?
Patrubány Miklós István Ádám
a Magyarok Világszövetségének elnöke
Mr. Shimon Peres
President of Israel
Open Letter
Mr. President!
Your speech before the annual convention of the Association of Trade Bureaus, in Tel Aviv on October 10, 2007, outlined the ongoing expansion of the Jewish Empire, by means of procurement in the following areas: Manhattan, Poland, Romania and our own homeland, Hungary.
This view of the future is unacceptable to us.
More than a thousand years ago, in the early decades of the ninth century, the leading stratum of the Kazar Empire adopted the Jewish religion, causing much trouble. The descendants of the Magyars who returned to the Carpathian Basin do not want to see these events repeated in their ancient homeland.
Your economic occupation of Hungary cannot be included in the influx of other foreign capital. We must differentiate between the politically neutral influx of funds and the economic expansion of capital, intended to promote an occupation, supported by the state. This latter one does not come alone. Parallel to the economic occupation, comes a new colonization by means of the classic tools to ensure power:
cont
1. the introduction of certain rules of the game, which ensure the rule of the powers-that-be, while preserving the appearance of democracy (in its fully-developed form, this is the typical two-party system of the United
States),
2. the corruption of the political elite,
3. the monopoly of the tools for building a political culture,
4. the methodical demonization of the critics of the regime,
5. the take-over of the educational system,
6. the control of public health.
In addition to all these, you have now succeeded in reducing the numbers in the National Guard and in reprogramming the political police (NBH and REBISZ) and, in the form of the INKAL SECURITY Kft., you have established control over the society and have introduced the methods of the use of force. The presence of the INKAL SECURITY Kft., on October 23, 2006, with the bloodshed caused by their shooting people in the eyes and their use of „vipers”, immediately brings to mind, involuntarily, the IRGUN terror organization.
In Hungary, the anti-Hungarian atrocities, committed by the gypsies, have grown in proportion to the growth of the Israeli occupation. Mr. President, you surely know whether or not there exists a causal relation behind this comparison.
cont
Hungarians world-wide are following the realization of the Israeli colonization of our homeland with anxiety and a growing indignation.
Mr. President, the World Federation of Hungarians calls upon you to immediately cease your politics of occupation in Hungary. If it continues, sooner or later it will cause a destabilization in our territory, similar to that in the Middle East. In the end, this is not in anyone’s interest.
Mr. President, leave Hungary to those who gave their name to the state.
Budapest, 5th of December 2009
The Praesidium of the World Federation of Hungarians
Confirming signature
Patrubány Miklós István Ádám
President of the World Federation of Hungarians
We, European Aborigines, Magyar-Hun kindred
Some of us have traveled far over the millennia since we left our ancestral home, the cradle of civilization, the Carpathian Basin. Some of us may have lost our religious beliefs and language along the way, but we have kept much of our traditions and folklore. Our mothers, from the Great wall of China to the farthest shores of Wales, Ireland and Scotland, are still putting us to bed at night humming the same lullabies they have been singing for thousands of years. They may have lost the words, but the memory of an ancient past had somehow survived in their souls.
Before today’s materialistic world, founded on greed and malice that enslaves Man, we lived freely in an affluent world of spirituality and productive mental activity founded on our Magi’s divine calling: “To learn and to freely share our knowledge for the elevation of mankind.” We built citadels of science and engineering today’s scholars can only marvel in disbelief; we healed the sick of diseases that baffle today’s medical science. And we understood the fundamentally complete triple uni-triune system, based upon a cosmic world-view of natural sciences, that can bring into harmony the human body, spirit and mind, a concept today’s thinkers, trapped in the exclusionist paradigm of physical laws, are feverishly shunning.
cont
But then, a dark cloud blocked out the sun of mankind. We were burnt at the stake; hanged, drawn and quartered; massacred in the name of a “jealous,” “wrathful,” vengeful “God;” and incinerated alive in firebombings by the architects of materialism as punishment for our “sins” of knowledge. And yet, our dedicated researchers are harvesting and selflessly sharing the truth that is sprouting everywhere. Despite a systematic ban on funding nonconformist research, and deliberate acts engineered to destroy evidence and to forge fabrications, archaeological finds, DNA data analyses and computerized comparative linguistics are all converging on the heart of Europe, on the land that keeps producing evidence of a written Magyar language in 30,000 year old pyramids and on 20,000 year old stick fragments, the Carpathian Basin.
This is the spirit – our craving after political, spiritual and intellectual freedom, and our answer to a calling to gain and share our knowledge with humanity – that finds us wherever we live, whatever regime we live under, whatever century we write in stone or on a keyboard. This is the spirit no one can take away from us.
cont
We are the aboriginal inhabitants of Europe: Armenian, Avar, Azeri, Baktrian, Basque, Croat, Curd, Eravisci, Etruscan, Gaulois, Hungarian, Hunza, Hurrian, Irish, Jazig, Karapurak, Kassitan, Kazah, Kirzig, Kussanian, Magyar, Mayan, Mede, Nipponese, Polish, Sarmatian, Scottish, Székely, Tadzik, Tatar, Turkish, Turkmen, Ukrainian, Uyghur, Uzbec, Welsh; also known as Scythian, “People of the Light;” people of Kus, Nimrod, Gudea and Melchizedek; people of the Magus Faith, Izzu (Jesus) and his mother, Parthian Princess Mary Adiabene-Kharax; the biblical people of Canaan, Gog, Magog, Parthia, Galilee, Samaria and Scythopolis; people who build their churches on biblical “High Places.” We are the people who greet the Morning Star with love in our hearts, and stand tall in the bursting morning sunshine that heralds the presence of our Creator.
We are joining hands because we share a common birthright. We claim the right to be here because we were here before anyone else. And we will continue to seek the truth and share our knowledge because that is our calling.
“It is not necessary to believe: it is only necessary to know”
http://www.magyarmegmaradas.eoldal.hu
@wombat – http://www.sexiside.hu/not_even_wind_can_break_hungar.html
Yes, please send those triplets to Law to keep him occupied – can’t stand that nonsense any more!
The Praesidium of the World Federation of Hungarians
Confirming signature
Patrubány Miklós István Ádám
President of the World Federation of Hungarians
Law at December 28, 2009 10:07 PM
—
I hope this organisation present this letter to the US Congress asap, so the US Administration gets up2date with the political status of Hungarians in Exile.
In short what Peres said was:
“Nowadays you can build empires without establishing colonies and sending in the army. Israeli businessmen are investing all around the world, enjoying unparalleled success, earning economic independence. We’re buying up Manhattan, Poland, Hungary and Romania”
-
A bit more mainstream evaluation of that 2 year old speech can be found in:
http://www.xpatloop.com/news/17445
-
The other posts from Law, which starts off with:
“We, European Aborigines, Magyar-Hun kindred
Some of us have traveled far over the millennia since we left our ancestral home, the cradle of civilization, the Carpathian Basin”
=
Yes, you read correct the Magyars started in here in Hungary so many years ago that no one has been able to find any scientific proof of it.
But, hey, why care about science when you have God on your side.
Did you not know God speaks Hungarian, I heard he sounds like Gyurcsany…
Hi Law,
Thanks for posting “Patrubány Miklós István Ádám
a Magyarok Világszövetségének elnöke to Mr. Shimon Peres President of Israel” letter.
Mark,
I really hope you show it for your NRA-friends.
@Mark – it would have been better if you also posted Peres response to the letter.
http://bit.ly/6a6zI8
A Jedioth Ahronot újság internetes oldalán héberül megjelent egy cikk, ami az izraeli külügyminisztériumnak külföldön, főleg Európában és USA-ban zajló új propaganda háborújának a bővítését vázolja fel. Az újság a hírforrások szerint egyetemi hallgatók és ex-katonák tucatjainak bocsátottak a rendelkezésükre egy irodát, hogy kommentárokat, különféle blogokat, híroldalakat, fórumokat, twittert, facebookot és baloldali weboldalakat írjanak, amikben az izraeli kormány pozícióját magyarázzák és védjék.
Arra a kérdésre, hogy a kommentárírók, akik ezen a projekten dolgoznak magukat, mint normális internet felhasználónak adják ki, a projektvezetője csak így válaszolt: világos. A mi embereink nem fogják megmondani: „Halló, én az izraeli külügyminisztérium Hasbara(propaganda)-osztályától vagyok, és én csak azt akartam mondani, hogy… Nem fogják magukat szükségszerűen izraelinek kiadni. Azt fogják írni, hogy ők normális internetfelhasználók és a kommentárjaikat is magánvéleményként fogják átadni, de az üzeneteik egy bizonyos vonalra támaszkodnak, amit a Külügyminisztérium készített elő.”
The circumstances of the people at Masada carried out their so called suicide. Each man went to his private dwelling and slit the throats of his wife and children of all ages. The men grouped, and each group cast lots. The one who lost then slit the throats of the rest of the people in the group before killing himself. To me this is simply so bizarre that I can hardly find words. It seems to be a scheme designed to extract the maximum amount of light from all of the people involved. How would you have felt while you were slitting the throats of your own wife and children and watching them bleed to death over several minutes?
I even thought about the obvious alternative. The place sits on top of a 300m cliff line up all the people on the wall. Then the leaders set forth an example by jumping off first, and the rest can then jump or not jump as they decide individually. Yet if something like this had been done, a considerable amount of people might not have jumped, and that would have diminished the shock effect. For maximum effect, EVERYONE had to die, and to me that clearly demonstrates that there were some pretty sick minds behind the entire event. They simply wanted to leave a monument to themselves in history, and that is nothing but pride that has crossed the line to insanity. It’s an evil energy. Middle Eastern consciousness, people here are still simple people who are stuck in a certain state of consciousness.
cont:
I have realized that it simply isn’t the role in this life span to address or challenge their consciousness. Nor is it our role to change them. We require to let our light shine and remember the Buddha’s concept that “Some will understand.” Which means we could let go of any attachment to changing other people, even any desire to prevent a war in the Middle East.
For many years people have been concerned about a war in the Middle East and have been grasping the vision that it would not occur. We have to surrender even the desire in total respect for the performance of the Law of Free Will.
If the people in this area require to experience a extreme war in order to get out of the consciousness in which they are trapped, why should we hold the vision that it will not occur? Allow the Law to work itself out and let them reap as they have sown.
You may think about the popular saying of having the last word to the Neo Liberal Atheists.
Well, at the level of words, you will never have the last word. Words can be counteracted by another point made with words. Any argument formulated in words has a counter argument, and at the level of the words themselves, it is impossible to prove what is ultimately real and what is unreal. Instead, you then are confined to trying to prove what is right and wrong. And although you may prove something right, you will only prove it as an opposite polarity to something wrong, and that is not the ultimate right, the infinite right.
And thus, the only way to be ultimately right is with God, to reach for the Word. When you reach for the Word, you can know that God is, that God is beyond the finite, that you are an extension of God. And thus you, at least the core of your Being, is beyond the finite world.
Michael. Interesting to note you linking difference of opinion/s with an infallible and omnipotent entity called God?
“In the beginning was the word, and the word was God…” (John /Gospel?)
We are mortal and words are all we have to explain our inner thoughts. WE can be judged by our actions and deeds but, “to every action there is an equal reaction” -in a scientific sense. Whatever we do it will be interpreted differently depending on the perception, outlook, and frame of mind, of the individual/s viewing the event.
If you/we feel we are losing an argument we can always call on the Almighty for assistance?
I always like to fight my own battles. And, if I lose . SO BE IT. Another lesson learned – I hope.
And the question you must ask yourself is this:
“Will I continue to play the games, the myriad,
innumerable games that can be played with words.
Will I continue to seek to get the last word
among men, or will I reach for the ultimate Word
This is indeed the question; to be an open door
for the Word or not to be.
Consider how many people have lived for decades in
this lifetime, and for dozens of lifetimes before
this lifetime, engaging in the game of seeking to
get the last word by proving yourself right, by
proving another human being wrong, by proving how
clever you are with words or jokes or sarcastic or
ironic statements—that supposedly puts someone
else in their place. And what place might that
be, where you put someone else, when you put them
down with a vibration that is less than love, that
is less than purity?
Well it is the same place you put yourself, when
you enter into that vibration of talking down to
another, of seeking to put them down, rather than
seeking to raise up the All by being an instrument
for the Word, that with its purity can only raise
up life.
Not surprisingly, the liberal mainstream media keeps quiet about the incident.
Law at December 28, 2009 8:03 AM
—
Well, you wrote this on the 28th for an ongoing incident afternoon 23rd.
Already on the same day (23) at 20:35 mno.hu published this telegram from HirTV:
-
Lövöldözésbe torkollott egy elszámolási vita Ráckevén
2009. december 23. 20:35
-
2 minutes before the police.hu web-site publishes basically the same info, with the addition of mentioning Magyar Garda.
Garázdaság Ráckevén (PMRFK)
2009.12.23. szerda 20:33
Elszámolási vita miatt alakult ki nézeteltérés két család között ma délután Ráckevén.
=
The Police confirm 4 injured taken to hospital for observation and 5 people arrested for vandalism and to check if other crimes also been committed.
The weapon involved was a gas alarm gun.
The Police also confirmed that they performed ID-control of the Magyar Garda.
-
So already before 20:30 on December 23rd this story was wrapped up.
And published to every one to see.
=
* So which nationwide media did not publish it?
* And why should nationwide media publish a local brawl between 2 families that did not lead to any serious injuries?
@Viking
Is there any way to help a person like you with
psychopathic personality disorder? In most cases,
people who have gone into the extremes of this
disorder can be helped only through the school of
hard knocks. And this will often happen only when
they have been removed to an environment where
they are surrounded by lifestreams with the same
low consciousness, so they will give the knocks to
each other. Nothing else has a chance of awakening
them, because their perception is so polluted –
and they are so sure it is reality – that you
cannot reach them with any kind of arguments. In
rare cases, a truly innocent person can awaken a
psychopath by allowing him or her to abuse it, but
those are extremely rare cases, and I do not
recommend anyone trying this deliberately.
@Viking
Is there any way to help a person like you with
psychopathic personality disorder?
Michael at December 29, 2009 8:44 PM
—
Oh, thank you for the offer.
Please publish your contact details and I will come back to you.
Great, now Law/Hot Paprika/innumerable other aliases has a new one. Hey fucktard, you think you could just stick with one?
@Pávaszem: Here’s a great resource, poets reading their own poetry. For Seamus Heaney there are a few, try ‘St Kevin and the Blackbird’. Brings back great memories of Glendalough for me: http://www.poetryarchive.org/poetryarchive/singlePoet.do?poetId=1392
@Pavaszem.
“We have never had a slave trade, you did.”
Slavery (of a form) did exist in Hungary. It was called indentured servitude or serfdom. May not have involved transporting large numbers around the world, but it was still a form of slavery (i.e unpaid work with no rights or benefits), just not chattel slavery (where a person could be bought or sold). So please climb down from your moral high-horse.
PS: Judging from her name, Cinéad is Irish. Probably not the right nation to be accusing of being slavers after all the grief they received from the Scots and English over the centuries.
@Law
“We are the aboriginal inhabitants of Europe: Armenian, Avar, Azeri, Baktrian, Basque, Croat, Curd, Eravisci, Etruscan, Gaulois, Hungarian, Hunza, Hurrian, Irish, Jazig, Karapurak, Kassitan, Kazah, Kirzig, Kussanian, Magyar, Mayan, Mede, Nipponese, Polish, Sarmatian, Scottish, Székely, Tadzik, Tatar, Turkish, Turkmen, Ukrainian, Uyghur, Uzbec, Welsh:”
??? You really do make me laugh with your own unique brand of Aussie/Magyar ‘troofer’ insanity. Half the peoples on that list you’ve quoted are from Central Asia. Nipponese??? That’s Japanese isn’t it. And Mayan??? Wrong side of the Atlantic to start with.
I’m descended from Welsh blood. I speak Welsh. I’m not even related to the Irish or Scots (culturally, linguistically or ethnically) so I really am struggling to work out how I am related to the Japanese or Mayans.
Man, you really do believe in your own bizarre and completely bonkers version of reality. I bet you’d watch Glenn Beck on Fox if you were a Yank.
Keep up the good work though, it’s always nice to have some light comic relief from the real problems out there in the actual real world, not the parallel one that exists solely in your weird brain.
PS: From reading your various posts over the years I get the impression that you think you are somehow special or better than many others.
You aren’t special, different or somehow better than anyone else. Sorry to tell you this but you’re just another human being, surrounded by many other human beings.
Demagogic Revenge mmhh you make me!! Laugh, at the same time a bit sad to see how ignorant you chose to remain. If you have these thoughts and feeling then there hidden within your psyche not mine.
German Archeologists claim the Carpathian Basin relics and discoveries are around 7500 years old.
http://barikad.hu/node/43774
By the way, I’m very special and not limiting my mind to a sophisticated monkey as yourself.
@Law: “I’m very special”. I don’t think anyone would deny that you are ‘special’.
Could you use some of your scientific and linguistic knowledge to explain to me the apparent anomily in the resource you referred to?
Specifically, could you explain why these German scientists from Mainz (Gutenberg always comes to mind and that smelly, rotten cheese with beer) refer to ‘these immigrants’ (ezek a „bevándorlók”) and that these people are not referred to as the Magyars, but ‘those nations/tribes that lived within the territory that is modern day Hungary’ (pl. azoktól a népektől, amelyek a mai Magyarország területén éltek)?
VINDALOOOOOOOOOOO
The information is there I’m not your Google Bitch.. Do your own research, why waste my time on a Tosser like yourself, who doesn’t take any new discoveries seriously only supports the establishments mythology of present day historical lies!
Science does not bother Law, but if we look what science stands today:
Humans (hunter-gatherers) first arrived in Europe 45,000 years ago, replacing a Neanderthal population.
Farmers immigrated into Central Europe, settling first in the Carpathian Basin, about 7,500 years ago, initially without mixing with local hunter-gatherers
Comparing mtDNA sequences from late European hunter-gatherers (up to 13,000 years old) with sequences from early farmers (7,500 years old), as well as with sequences from modern Europeans significant genetic differences between all three groups have been found which cannot be explained by population continuity
Most (82%) of the hunter-gatherers share a genetic lineage known as “U”, which is still found today in a minority of Europeans – about 5% of Mediterranean people, increasing northwards to 20-40% of traditional tribes in north-eastern Russia and Finland, such as the Saami
The major DNA type among the farmers, however, was type N1a, which is exceptionally rare, found in less than 0.2% of the European population
The fact that this lineage was not shared with the hunter-gatherers means that the farmers were immigrants
So many Europeans today, especially in the north and north-east, carry ice-age hunter lineages
So this would then be the real ‘Original Europeans’, even if they still immigrated initially
Not so much for an ‘Hungarian’ to Twist&Shout about, but maybe for a Viking
Hi Law,
If these people were who they claim they are, they would have interest in making pests of themselves on a Hungarian list, even if the language used is English. It is obvious who these people are:
Izraeli hozzászólás kommandó az interneten
http://barikad.hu/node/43590
Az izraeli külügyminisztérium professzionális kommentárírókat pénzel, akik a nemzetközi médiákban, mint például a facebookon, blogokon és baloldali Weboldalakon őrséget tartanak, hogy védjék Izrael kormánypolitikáját.
Why bother responding to these pesky provocateurs, some paid some volunteers. They hate you and they will find fault in anything you post once you have identified yourself as a patriotic Hungarian who places the interests of his fellow Hungarians ahead of foreign predators.
Why would not these foreign predators hate you? You symbolize those who believe that Magyarorszag a magyaroke and they hate anyone who dares to be a Hungarian in his own country. The irony is that these same foreign predators would murder anyone who would dare challenge them in whatever dastardly deeds they commit against the minorities living in their midst. The best example for this is the brutality of Israel against the Palestinians.
You are not alone in your opposition to these foreign predators my friend and I do not mean just my support for you. The majority of Hungarians are awakening and it shows in the polls. MSZP and SZDSZ, the parties of communist murderers is losing ground every day. Not all of their losses go to Jobbik but a fair share. Their hours are counted and they will no longer be able to brutalize and exploit Hungarians in their own country.
The time to account for their crimes is coming closer.
Take care my friend.
If these people were who they claim they are, they would have NO interest in making pests of themselves on a Hungarian list, even if the language used is English. It is obvious who these people are:
Mark (The Idiot)
How many times are you going to re-print that barikad-article?
If you knew anything you would know the Viking existed before what the article describe.
Prove me to have agreed with any official policy from Jerusalem!
You are just a pathetic idiot who cannot argue anything.
The 2 of you is Hungary’s answer to ‘Laurel & Hardy’, but you are still a disgrace for Hungary!
If ‘Hungarian Nationalists’ have no better to offer for a free discussion, why even try?
Vandor,
I have to admit, that you do get the funniest comments thrown at you, here on this site. First ” Buffing your bust of Lenin” from Bobs and ” Not your Google Bitch” from Law.
Ya gotta love this place.
Hi Mark,
Agree 100% with your comments. Appears psycho Viking
has lost the plot, the more he and his gang are
exposed the more aggressive they will get.
Still not clear to the monkey that he is wasting his
time trying to ask questions.
Adjon az Isten
Hi justasking
Honestly can be
hope you’re having a pleasant day
a laugh here at times.
The Hun-Scythian theory, so loved by Law (Huncilla?), draws on this 2nd big wave of immigration that science now believes arrived first to the Carpathian Basin ca 7.500 years ago.
This is the ultimate proof for proving Great Hungary against Slovakians etc, then “we were here first!”-type childish argument.
I saw it first from Justasking when she arrived and when me and some others would like to see the scientific references to that, she told me to commit suicide.
I did not.
Instead I studied the pre-historical Europe and how we came here.
The Hun-Scythian theory has an initial flaw, they were not here first, which is their biggest claim.
As farmers they would survive better when there was no ice ages left (so far) and therefore they competed out the original inhabitants, who moved more to the north, where no sensible person want to live any way.
The ntDNA evidence proves this scenario, which is much more reliable than old stories told by the camp fire and historical stories invented due to a political claim for land. This is not a unique Hungarian trick, we Swedes have done it a lot.
-
So, the Hun-Scythian story cannot be used to claim “we were 1st”, just “we were before”.
The latter though mean that you subscribe to the right to conquer and the “Winner Take It All”, which is a bit stupid when discussing with a Slovakian, then they won the last time.
-
continued
@Law – yes, it’s even funnier when you don’t realize where the joke is
Anyway, saw that even you didn’t have the cojones to back your bro, Mark Visconti, and put up the dough.
I would have sworn you’d back a ‘real Hungarian’ to the hilt. What’s the matter? Mr No Balls not Hungarian enough for you, or do you just favour your other triplet. Just curious:)
Talk to the hand viking your pissing against the
wind! still not CLEAR!!!!
continued
-
3rdly the question if all Hungarian/Magyar history for known time has been fundamental wrong?
The main issue here is if what we today know as the ‘Hungarian Culture’ was originally created here in the Carpathian Basin and spread all over the Eurasian continent, to return with the Magyar tribes many thousand years ago, or as we always thought came into Europe from somewhere in Central-Asia with the before mentioned immigration.
The 1st alternative is of course more glorious and would just prove the “we were here 1st”-argument.
Yes, a ‘Culture’ travel many kilometres in more than 6.000 years and then come back as the ‘same’ culture (no bad multi-cultural transformations here!).
Given this assumption on this version of the “Hungarian Culture’s” superiority, it is up to every ones imagination to invent their own ‘details’, like
- Jews are actually descendants of this Hun-Schytian society (why not, all others are).
—
It can actually be rather fun sometimes to study these things, but where is the scientific proof?
No where, they just do not believe in that.
-
As Mr Farkas points out, there is more scientific proof for the Finn-Ugro connection to explain Hungary’s modern History, but Jobbik has taken a decision to reject that accepted version and instead work for starting new State-financed Institutions to dig up support for this Jobbik-point.
No reminiscence from the 30s?
Is there anyone who has not heard of “Nigerian Scam” and its variations?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_scam
still not CLEAR!!!!
Law at December 30, 2009 7:09 PM
—
WTF are you moaning about?
Can you please be a bit more explicit?
Maybe Law is moaning because the triplets “visited” him …
Hmm, yeah, all 3 at one time must be a bit hard even for an ass-hole of his dimension?
Today’s West is controlled by not prime ministers
but leaders of huge multinational company
conglomerates who try to shatter all national
pride in every country.
War against nationalism is in fact a war for
corporate world rule where only money counts.
They will fight against ideologism until they win
their final battle – when everything can be bought
by money.
Ideology is against money, and nationalism is
against globalization.
The media is now fighting against these, because
all they want is money and globalization.
Countries with great tradition and history are
targeted and are the victims of most media attack
from the west.
Those countries whose leaders cannot be corrupted
by western money are said to be radical and anti-
democratic and this media propaganda tries to
convince ordinary people to hate Iran, China,
Turkey, Hungary and such.
@No Balls Mark Visconti – You need help in recognizing scams, you fucking moron. (www.scamorama.com).
Come to think of it, you just need help.
“Iran, China, Turkey, Hungary and such”
Woww, that is an impressive list – buz I forgot: What exactly do these countries have in common ?
@ Wolfi;
What those countries have in common? Their years of existance possibly. Oh, and could you just say ” my wife” please? You sound like a dork when you keep on refering to her nationality when talking about her.
@ Boy George;
I would hazard a guess that Law did not take your offer to Mark up, because was not directed at him, hence, really none of his business. The argument was between you and Mark from what I read.
@ Viking;
Knock it off, I gave a whole list of books and a couple of websites, I believe it was to Kreston. I did not tell you to commit suicide because “you and others” asked for my references…I suggested that you CONSIDER suicide because you were being a dumb ass.
On that note, I wish everybody a safe and Happy New Year,
When Renouf read a quotation from writer David
Irving in a newspaper article on Irving’s libel case
against the historian Deborah Lipstadt, she first
became interested in the use of the religious term
Holocaust in relation to World War II history,
having had no special interest in or knowledge of
the period previously. She attended the two month
long hearing and expressed interest in Irving’s
ideas and the reaction to them. “I found on Irving’s
side of the courtroom a solitary person representing
himself, backed up by enormous forensic research and
tremendously capable debate based on substance and
fact… On the other side of the courtroom I saw 21-
25 people with laptops connected it seems to the
Israeli government.
@justasking – you’re right, though Law did try to stick his nose in before that. I thought I’d throw him a bone, and see if he’d pop a Hungarian ‘boner’.
Guess he was too busy ‘grappling’ the triplets to notice NB shriveling up. My offer still stands btw. at least till tomorrow, after which I’ll be away for a month. I’ll try to keep up with things, from ‘India’. Do you know if they haves the internets there?
Have a good year, all! You too, Law/HP & go easy on the VB & the 4n20!
@ Boy George;
Safe trip to India, as for Internet there…from what I hear Mumbai is considered the new Silicone Valley.
As for the comment about the triplets and Law… don’t get sucked into acting like a pig like some people are around this site, your better than that. In my opinion, I feel that comments like that, are just as disgusting and uncalled for, as the one I had made to Viking about the consideration of suicide. And yes, I did apologise to him for saying that.
As awareness is raised and more people rise above
the epic social conditioning, the people like CG
with psychopathic personality disorder will begin to
stand out more and behavior that today is considered
“normal” or is undetected will be clearly seen as
psychopathic, just like Curious George!
Your going to have a lousy year Georgy Porgy!
@Mr. László –
Thanks a lot (belatedly) for sending that link to the Tormay “Diary”! I will definitely take a look at that (may have to pick up a paperback version since I have a hard time reading anything over several pages off a computer screen — beginning with Bob and Law’s tirades…) –
I appreciate the education I also get here from the debates, the history and anthropology lessons… though I certainly have some trouble with Mark/Ricsi/Law/etc.’s scapegoating; as if ridding the country of Jews and Roma would fix all of Hungary’s problems… Very crazy people.
It’s entertaining to be called a “communist” periodically as well, considering I don’t post much, and come from right about the middle of the American political spectrum, but there’s lots of craziness to spare (e.g. “Michael”‘s Hand-of-God style of prose)…
Anyway Happy Holidays to you all and Happy New Year!
THE SHADOWS – FREEMASONS
http://www.youtube.com/user/RevealedTruth2009#p/c/827F672069F36FE1/0/YqbnMvdn_T4
@Law – thanks for the fortune telling. I didn’t know you were part gypsy. Saved me a trip to Madame Zora.
@justasking – yes, I know… triplets, law, grappling….. a little underhanded! We, ex-soldiers, sometimes get carried away – also with the language. Sorry! You too, Olga! I should’ve said that earlier.
btw India was ‘India’, though if one projects goes my way, I just might make it there sometime soon!
@Bystander;
A couple of other Hungarian authors that you can get their books translated into English are Sandor Marai and Magda Szabo. They are 2 of my favourite authors and can be found on Amazon.com, .uk and .ca. You might like Magda Szabo’s work more if you are a female in my opinion. I say this because I usually end up all teary eyed reading her work for they tend to deal with relationships and how life makes you what you are.
Another author, though I have not read yet, is Kalman Mikszath his “The Town in Black’. Again, have not read any of his stuff yet though. Maybe Laci F has heard of him and could tell us if he is worth reading or not.
Thanks JustAsking!
Sandor Marai, Magda Szabo, Kalman Mikszath… check!
Since I am a male, maybe I’ll save the Szabo for last!
Have started skimming around the “Outlaw’s Diary” and so far, extremely interesting! I forget if that makes me a commie or an aristocrat or what…
I meant who you are, not what you are
@ Bystander;
It makes you none of those things. It shows a person who enjoys well writen novels.
convince ordinary people to hate Iran, China,
Turkey, Hungary and such.
Turanian at December 30, 2009 8:10 PM
—
Another of Huncillin’s alter egos, obviously he shames over his production.
So what has the 3 first countries in common?
Extreme violent anti-riot police, the Hungarian variant is just ‘School Police’ compared with them.
Both Turks and Iran have squadrons of 2-manned motorbikes with either machine-guns or baton for the Police Officer riding ‘shoot-gun’ in the back.
I have not seen that in China yet, but it is not so easy to be in those zones for foreigners.
-
All 3 countries Police forces have no problem killing demonstrators without any repercussion, that have all proven this year. In together they have killed several hundred demonstrators.
How many have died in Hungary the last 20 years?
-
Turkey is a special case, which Huncillin missed as usual:
Turkey supports Israel, which in return is trying to stop the Armenian Holocaust to be officially declared as just a ‘Holocaust’.
In one case, the Turks forced thousands of Armenians into caves and then asphyxiated them with smoke from fires – the world’s first gas chambers
Hitler, planning his genocide of Europe’s Jews, asked his Wehrmacht generals,
“Who now remembers the Armenians?”
Winston Churchill, a minister of Britain’s First World War government, referred to the Armenian massacres as a “holocaust”
Yes Turkey had a lot of history that formed Europe to come.
Holocaust is one of them, but they do have good food
Dear Bystander,
The suggestion that you might try the work of Kálmán Mikszáth was a good one! You can’t understand the domino effect of our past history unless you understand the feudal tradition we came from, and Mikszáth’s works are helpful there. Mikszáth came to see the aristocratic class as a bane and burden upon our nation. You might want to try and find his work “A fekete város”(1910)- The Black Town.
His works are for sale on the internet, especially at http://www.abebooks.com. I don’t know if your local public library has Hungarian authors in translation, but there is always interlibrary loan; your library could always borrow a book from another.
Best wishes!
@Law: “As awareness is raised and more people rise above
the epic social conditioning,…”
You are very correct and it is comical to see how more and more people are parroting Jobbik’s solutions for Hungary as if they invented it. I recently saw an interesting interview on Duna TV with József Torgyán. I do not wish to badmouth him because he showed some character when he refused to join the Communists and paid a price for it. He presents a refreshing contrast with the mob of Communist trash in the MSZP/SZDSZ government and even some in Fidesz.
He just started a “movement” and all his proposals could have come from Jobbik’s program. It never occurred to the interviewer to mention that it is what Jobbik has been advocating but that is how it goes. I do not know if Torgyán really believes the things he said, I hope he does, or this is just another “movement” to take away some Jobbik supporters. It really does not matter because Torgyán is too old to get much traction.
It is encouraging that on many Hungarian language lists, more and more Fidesz supporters are starting to talk like Jobbik supporters. Jobbik’s program and your vision, Jobbik’s vision for Hungary is gaining support fast in Hungary and in the EU.
Hang in there my friend, you have a lot more friends in Hungary and in EU than it appears in the neo-liberal media and on this list.
A little bonus for those who understand Hungarian, really understand in their heart:
Vona Gábor újévi üzenete, melyben röviden összefoglalja a 2009-es
évet, és hogy mi vár a nemzeti oldalra 2010-ben.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nds0NckKYXI&
If the previous link does not work, try this:
http://barikad.hu/node/43809
Dear Mark and Freinds
Boldog új évet kívánunk!
Betyar great video !!
http://www.betyarsereg.hu/
Neked is barátom és minden igaz Magyar honfitársunknak!
Betyar great video !!
Law at December 31, 2009 9:21 AM
—
Huncillin is making commercial for Budahazy’s group which openly supports violent attacks on all their ‘enemies’.
It is a nice video, technical high quality, much better than ever Jobbik has been able to produce so far, so Budahazy has some good resources.
One can speculate who is supporting these type of activities that are to give some cover of ‘ideology’ and ‘romantic feeling’ and muster support for violent acts like beating of a well-known Hir-TV anchor with Jewish background and several petrol-bomb attacks at different MSZP politicians houses and SZDSZ and MSZP Offices the last 3 years.
Of course this is to support the ‘Debrecen Nazi’ the Serial Killer Group from Debrecen (a Fidesz stronghold) which randomly killed several Roma during over a year. They were caught and await trials.
But hey, no one killed or hurt were a ‘Tiszta Magyar’, so then it is OK Huncilla?
Izraeli hozzászólás kommandó az interneten
http://barikad.hu/node/43590
Az izraeli külügyminisztérium professzionális kommentárírókat pénzel, akik a nemzetközi médiákban, mint például a facebookon, blogokon és baloldali Weboldalakon őrséget tartanak, hogy védjék Izrael kormánypolitikáját.
Viking Your perception is so polluted you are willing to see the fallacy, the bias, the duality of your own perception that you have been so sure was accurate.
You are willing to endure the shock of suddenly seeing how limited your perception was, how biased it was, how inaccurate it was, how far away it was from the real true perspective.
This can be a severe shock. And when you start the process of parting the veil, you will go through many of these shocks, of being willing to see beyond the perception, to see something new, no matter how shocking or painful it may be to your outer mind.
Please take this advice and free yourself from your sick perception.
Please take this advice and free yourself from your sick perception.
Law at December 31, 2009 12:27 PM
—
Wonderful argumentation for the ideology that
‘everyone who think different is mental sick and need treatment’.
The same method Kreml used against dissidents during the Communist Era.
Nice to see that you have not forgot your old Master’s methods.
Responding with a proper argument would of course be an intellectual challenge too great to muster.
THIS LETTER IS APPROPRIATE FOR WHAT IS GOING ON THIS LIST ALSO:
Münzberg Mihály: Vendégjog
Vendégnek lenni más otthonában nagy dolog. Vendégségbe menni valójában akkor illik és akkor szokás, ha hívnak. Ha úgy tesszük tiszteletünket valakinél, hogy nem invitáltak, és nem is jelentettük be látogatásunkat, minél rövidebb szokás a házigazdák terhére lenni.
Van persze olyan eset, amikor annyira közeli és szoros a rokonság, a barátság, hogy bármikor szívesen látják az érkezőt, ilyenkor persze feltételezhető ennek kölcsönössége is.
Ha vendégségbe megyünk, természetesen illendő tisztában lennünk a vendégjoggal, az illem követelményeivel, nehogy megsértsük a vendéglátókat, és még a végén rossz véleménye legyen rólunk.
Így szokás ez a keresztény Európában. Legalábbis így volt szokás.
Mert van olyan is, hogy a vendég hívatlanul beállít, és igen sokáig marad (akár évszázadokon át). Mindennek tetejébe nem tiszteli a házigazdák életvitelét, hanem anélkül, hogy bármivel is hozzájárulna szállásadója ráfordításaihoz, féktelenül dézsmálja annak javait, gátlástalanul közeledik asszonyához, és ha a házigazda felháborodásának ad hangot, dühödten rátámad. Amennyiben pedig a ház ura végső kétségbeesésében rendőrt hívna, a gaz betolakodó könnyek között panaszolja el a hatósági közegnek, hogy ő tulajdonképpen csak erre járt, ám a ház lakói származása miatt indokolatlanul rátámadtak.
És vannak olyan vendégek is, akik szintén hívatlanul és arcátlanul toppannak be, lefitymálják a háziak ételeit, melyek nem felelnek meg az ő vallási előírásaiknak, felrúgják az asztalon álló karácsonyfát, és saját, hétágú gyertyatartójukat rakják a helyébe. Hogyha pedig a háziak sérelmeznék a hívatlan látogatást és békés életük felborítását, a vendégek mérhetetlen felháborodással és sértettséggel adnak hangot értetlenségüknek: hogyhogy nem büszke rá a ház ura, hogy őket, a felsőbbrendűeket, a kiválasztottakat vendégül láthatja? Aztán kikergetik a gazdát a szobából, asztalához ülnek, és hosszasan értekeznek barátaikkal arról, miként lehetne a nekik menedéket nyújtó házat mielőbb és minél olcsóbban úgy megvásárolni, olyan feltételek mellett, hogy a benne eredetileg lakók aztán a környékére se menjenek többé.
Így állunk, kedves vendéglátók. Legyen szó akár házról, akár hazáról, bizony, akadnak, akik csúnyán visszaélnek a vendégjoggal. Efféle esetekben nincs más hátra, népmesei fordulattal élve alaposan meg kell leckéztetni a hívatlanokat, hogy egy életre elmenjen a kedvük a tolakodó vendégeskedéstől!
Mark is basically saying
‘if you do not behave to our rules – piss off!’,
but with a bit more words.
Very clever to do that in Hungarian on an English languages website, but that is Mark.
Mark has probably, as his virtual buddy Huncillin discovered the wonder with ‘Cut&Paste’.
Boring people who more concentrate on *who* is saying something, than the actual content of the message.
Judging the dog from its hair?
Viking. What an excellent observation!
I hope you will be able to burst the balloon of a lot of the other pontificating parishioners that
post their interminable rubbish on this forum.
Erik could at least persuade some of them to reduce output and make positive and meaningful statements rather than indulge in their interminable ramblings aided and abetted by the “cut-and-paste” craze.
PS. No offence Mark. My rant is more against the likes of Cináed who has physically hi-jacked this site with volumes and volumes of verbose meanderings that mean nothing to the rest of us but
appear to keep him happy.
Quantity rather than quality. You might say…?
@LentiTibor et al: To be spartan you only have to write the acronym ‘TLNR’ (Too Long, No Read). In which light you are looking verbose. Change the record or say something with content.
@Cináed: Before you LentiTibor under a number of other pseudonyms repeatedly went off on one at me for whatever I wrote. Try saying something neutral or positive about Soros and he has problems. Like the other clowns here he is likely to be a sockpuppet, meatpuppet, atroturfing, part of the Jobbik claque fraudience.
@Mindenkinek: B.ú.é.k.! (a magyar helyesírás szabályai szerint)
Ne bántsd a magyart, mert pórul jársz!
Huncillin is joining in with copying Hungarian texts. This time a slogan aimed at foreigners.
Maybe good if the foreigners understand Hungarian first…
This is getting ridiculous, they just have a problem understanding this is an English-language web-site.
Maybe Wolfie should start to communicate in Schwäbish and Plumcrazy in alternating Romani and Hebrew. All languages spoken on a daily basis in Hungary.
@ Bystander;
There is one more book that I would like to recommend, “Paris-1919, Six months that changed the World” by Margaret Macmillan. Some of the reviews on this book: “A blueprint of the political and social upheavals bedeviling the planet now”…New York Times Book Review and form the Chicago Tribune…” For anyone interested in knowing how historic mistakes can morph into later problems”
You will get a factual, nonbiased opinion,(meaning a non-Hungarian one) on the Treaty of Trianon. As well as some really interesting tid bits on President Woodrow Wilson, British PM David Lloyd George and French PM Clemenceau.
Anyhow, I find this book the perfect “winter read” especially since it is, at this monment, -21 degree C.
@Viking: “All languages spoken on a daily basis in Hungary.” I’m all for it as long as you include Finnish, Estonian, Cheremis/Mari, Japanese, Turkish, Greek, Hindu, French, Spanish, Italian, Latvian etc… I have spoken to people whose mother tongue was one of these languages, but live/have lived here in Hungary and used Hungarian as their lingua franca. I’m still in touch with a lot of them and we normally communicate in Hungarian. Unlike the Jobbik clowns here, they don’t have to cut and paste other people’s thought/words either.
@Law: Happy New Year to you, too. Of course, you are absolutely right ‘Porból jöttünk, porrá leszünk’. A worthy thought for the passing of another year and the possibility of meeting Janus once again.
Van: Thanks for the post.
Sophist: speaking of Soros, I watched the ‘ascent’ episode with Soros in it and again didn’t get the feeling he was attacking Soros directly.He was clearly critical of derivitives trading etc, and did indirectly call Soros a ‘new kind of economic hitman’, in the context of being the next generation after the evolution of the IMF and worldbank.I think though that he was actually trying more to put down the ‘quants’ for their lack of historical insight and understanding of the stampede mentality of markets.If anything, he presented Soros as being immeasurably wiser and more gutsy for knowing when to play and when to cash in.
Pav:To be honest, I’m bored with talking about Australian law and politics, and clearly, others are too.Lets leave it and move on.By the way, I think my comment about Hungarians starting hot and cooling down is more of a generalisation based on observation than a stereotype.
To Whom It May Concern: I realise I go on at length sometimes, but in my defence, have either a)been trying to answer other long posts or complex questions or b)trying to pre-empt the myriad alternative and often obscure (mis)readings of my message.At least I actually think about what I’m writing and don’t just regurgitate what I got from a machine at the Minitrue.If you don’t want to read my posts, there is a handy scroll-bar on the left of the screen.If it’s HDD space you’re worried about, you could try deleting some of the porn you have.Just a suggestion.
@ Cinaed;
I thought that comment about Hungarians running hot then cold was spot on. It descibes perfectly all my family and everyother Hungarian I have ever met. Besides, one mans junk is another mans treasure, I enjoy you posts. No to say that you write junk, I hope you know what I mean. Also, good comeback…the porn part.
Once again Law, Pava, Bobs, Cinaed, Laci and everybody else: Have a safe and Happy New Year!
Hi Zsuzsa, thanks very much.I appreciate it.Thanks too for your wishes. 2009 was a year of building new foundations and 2010 will be a ‘brave new world’.I hope this year brings you and your family peace and happiness in all you do.
Happy New Year to everyone else too.
As it happens, the complaints about my posts are unnecessary since after next Wednesday I will probably not be online for a while anyway. I’ll try to check in when I can.
Vándorló. Are you a defence lawyer as well. I suppose you might levy a fee for your services?
Why put your rather large and pointed nose into other people’s business?
You seem to think you hold some sort of privileged position on this forum but, in fact, are just the resident know-all.
George Soros has been convicted on no less than three occasions for insider trading. De facto. Fact. Tény.
Do you understand this simple statement?
I care not about him or his methods of cheating whilst making out he is a philanthropist.
I have no intention of entering into further dialogue with you.
It is my firm opinion (and a lot others agree)
that you are no more than an inflated windbag whose main concern is his own self-importance.
Is this constructive enough for you?
And, that tracking radar you have – there is more than one version. Get it?
Boldog Uj Évet.
Yes I advice Hungarian people to travel and compare the lifestyles of western cultures, the greed dog eat dog minds of western societies.
You can see it all on cable TV the social conditioning through TV shows, Gays telling people how to get married, dress, eat, behave, music film clips promoting Lust and ego centered selfish lifestyle.
Hungarians have a rich culture which has been oppressed, morals values, laws, virtues right here in our own nation, they just have to be re ignited, spiritually, culturally, nationally. Hungarians have had a rich past, if we turn towards the west the nation will dissolve into a Multi National Corporate dictatorship, which it currently is, however we still have hope, there is a spark of hope within us all.
We require a revolution to expose the agenda of the power elite, within Hungary and beyond. People once encouraged with truthful hopes not Wall Street empty lies then can we begin to be re born as a successful nation.
Focus within to commence the healing and the changes will attract divine energy that is everlasting.
Tovább építkezik a nemzeti ellenállás
if we turn towards the west the nation will dissolve into a Multi National Corporate dictatorship, which it currently is, however we still have hope, there is a spark of hope within us all
Beautiful at December 31, 2009 7:27 PM
—
Huncillin is on at again, under a new alias again.
The logic of the quote above is that:
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* If we do like the West, Hungary becomes a MNC Dictatorship, which it currently is *
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Eehh, logic has not been Huncillin’s strong side, either.
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This time the Hungarian slogan is an upcoming HVIM-seminar on gorilla-media where:
Lecturers and the curriculum:
Toroczkai László (gerillamédia),
Tyirityán Zsolt (police interrogation techniques, intelligence methods),
Zagyva Gy. Gyula (strengthening of the national side)
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HVIM has been the real hard-core boys for at least 10 years in the radical Hungarian Nationalist movement and the years before 2006 Toroczkai and Budahazy were the leader-duo of HVIM.
Budahazy is currently in jail waiting trial together with 5 bomb-makers.
Budahazy was just before his arrest spring 2009 a close partner to Jobbik.
Jobbik-MEP Morvai, lawyer, is supporting Budahazy in his legal case.
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So it is up to every one to chose to support the violent way à la Huncillin, where we already live in a Dictatorship here in Hungary, or work with normal political work inside a Parliamentarian Democracy.
@Bystander: “recommendations for Hungarian literature… in English” IN ENGLISH there is hardly anything worth reading although Eclipse of the Crescent Moon (Egri csillagok) by Géza Gárdonyi could be OK since every Hungarian alive has read it. Anything by Sándor Márai http://➡.ws/陾ಱ would be fine too, of course. You can even preview him http://➡.ws/缨 on Google books.
@Bystander plus: Not Hungarian literature but interesting about us is Marcus Tanner’s Raven King http://➡.ws/垓佳 I haven’t gotten around to actually reading it but I am told Richard Teleky’s Hungarian Rhapsodies http://➡.ws/醜 is kind of cool too.
@Bystander more: Jáki Szaniszló’s (Stanley L. Jaki) autobiographical A Mind’s Matter http://➡.ws/밨 is also good. I wish you could read Tamási Áron’s Abel trilogy, Wass Albert’s The Funtinel Witch http://➡.ws/鹞
@Bystander, countinued: or anything Hamvas Béla wrote http://hamvasbela.org/en/excerpts.html in English but of course you can’t. Nor can you read Szathmári Sándor’s Kazohinia http://bit.ly/4PS0A1 or anything by Csengey Dénes in English which is a crying shame.
@Bystander, finally: Mikszáth? As much as I appreciate his advocacy of Slovak Hungarians, he was a mason…
If you must read him try St. Peter’s Umbrella http://bit.ly/7YCSKw that Theodore Roosevelt allegedly liked so much he came to Hungary to see him.
@Hughie: “history of the political parties in Hungary” We don’t have political parties… We have shape shifting gangs of organized criminals serving ‘multinational’ corporations. I mean that’s where their money comes from today — they could be working for the Russkies or the Chinks by tomorrow. We’ve had some decent _politicians you’ll never hear of like Becsei or Zétényi Zsolt who speak the truth and try to do the right thing and who usually do well if they physically survive. People you do hear of like Orbán or Tőkés are miracles that have survived for years without going bat shit crazy like Csurka et al. Ennyi. This is Hungarian politics. As for Iran, it’s in turmoil because of the US coup attempts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh that started in the 1950′s. And North Korea believes that the perfect US currency it has managed to print is its savior
Bonne année!
@Vándorló: “Joyce” What would you say makes Joyce Irish beyond ‘plain enough’? In your words not his. ( I have BTW read his work although I have never managed to read all of Finnegan’s Wake… Has anyone? Have you? ) “On Heaney… Start with ‘Sheela na Gig’” To ward off David Cohen or the NFP (Nobel Fucking Prize)? Thank you for the reference to Father Duinnín though… I am interested in the Irish because I suspect they are a ‘kindred people’ like the Basques, Catalans or the Louisiana and Quebec French — although with the exception of the Catalans we’re way better off than any of them.
“Heaney” again: very talented and contaminated… The NFP’s enough to soil anyone’s reputation — add to it the de Gaulle and David Cohen Prize and something is definitely rotten in the state of Denmark… B. ú. é. k. Neked is anyway.
I really loved MJ Hyland’s Carry Me Down… Anyway, what do you think Hungarians could learn from the Irish experience if anything? I would also appreciate a straight answer to my recurring question re. what/who YOU are if not English or Irish if you can answer that question at all and I am not sure you can. “It’s spelt kóbor”ĺgy igaz, bár ha jól tudom, nem szoktuk egymás helyesírási hibáit cikizni… Spelling’s so passé anyway, so 20th century… yes?
@Laci: I don’t think White, Brown, etc. are crucial. Széchenyi, Horthy, Orbán & holdudvar looking for an English master to replace some other is what’s crucial IMHO. Looking for love in all the wrong places… Peasants in Hungary were also NOT kept down. Talented peasants supported by Church and state scholarships had often had phenomenal careers. Over 70% of orphans raised by the Salesians ended up with college degrees too to not even mention the great count Klebelsberg: “A népiskolai építési akció megvalósítására 1932-ig 47 500 000 aranypengőt — az ország egyévi állami költségvetésének mintegy a felét — fordították.” http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02185/html/1362.html As for the land being owned by just a few people, who owns almost all the land in the UK? “peasant mentality I agree, the ‘extreme right’ is nothing really but a Dózsa type rebellion against the Master Race. And, the same thing always happens to them that happened to Dózsa…
@ Pava;
Happy New Year and all the best to you and your family.
Z
@CG, Kreston, Anonymous, Axie… “Visconti… Cojones” I notified Homeland Security you’re posting classified pictures of security checks at JFK, pendejo. They’ll be in touch!
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@justasking: “Safe trip to India” I think by ‘India’ the Deranged One meant the Gypsy row in Cinkota where he’s starting a new life as Lakatos Kevinkosztner’s Gadjo dilo csicska. (Isn’t that right axehole?) “the one I had made to Viking about the consideration of suicide” Viking seems to inspire comments like that… Our Swedish muse… My al time favorite is that he try cordless bungee jumping
#Viking: “Schwäbish… Romani and Hebrew”
#Vándorló: “Finnish, Estonian, Cheremis/Mari, Japanese, Turkish, Greek, Hindu, French, Spanish, Italian, Latvian” Wait a minute… What does this remind me of? Oy vey!!אֶת-הָעִיר וְאֶת-הַמִּגְדָּל — ΓΕΝΕΣΙΣ 11:9! Time to exorcize Politics.hu…
Hello all,
Some good reading suggestions here for bystander and others who are interested! How helpful this community can be when the right question is asked!
I second Pávaszem’s suggestion that one should read “Egri Csillagok”. It’s a story of resistance by a fortress town against Turkish onslaught, and resonates with the national psyche. I believe most european peoples have some epic like that in their history, a tragic story of a valiant, but unsuccessful resistance to foreign invasion. (For Germans there was Kolberg in the Napoleonic period)
Also, don’t be a stranger to your local used and antiquarian bookstore! I never cease to be amazed by what turns up in such places! I’ve found a lot of old, interesting and out of print books about Hungary, books written by Hungarians, or books in Hungarian in such places worldwide. Happy hunting!
Change of subject:
To Pávaszem, As you seem to have a bit of a journalistic nose when it comes to digging up background information, what have you heard, or what can you find out, about the terms of land usage that foreign oil has over the Makó gas field? The amount of land in question is a lot, over 250,000 acres. Was it purchased by them, or was it leased? If leased, what were the terms? What role did the govt. have in the issue? Are there any restrictive clauses in the picture? Having worked in the oil industry once, I can tell you that these are important issues. Links in Hungarian are fine. Thanks and Happy New Year
I see that you are experienced at your field! I am starting a blog in a few days, and this information will be very useful for me.. Thanks for all your help and wishing you all the success in your business.
@Laci: “terms of land usage that foreign oil has over the Makó gas field… purchased… leased?” I’ll check it out…
) Than this shit about Roldós and Torrijos not being assassinated (he must have earned a BIG bonus with that one) right… neither was president Kennedy: he died in a car wreck. And the way he camps it up, shakes his ass, jeez, I’m surprised he is married to a woman. At any rate I googled him and a lot of what he says about WWI and Germany I actually agree with. Not with Chimerica though that I think is as possible as Kubrick’s Soviet-UK.
@Cináed: I finished watching ‘Ascent…’ To say that Ferguson is annoying would be the understatement of the past and current year. He’s constantly suggesting how superior Scots are at the same time that he is an incredible kiss ass. Glossing over that other Hungo Molochite’s crimes against humanity in Chile is also a disservice. I mean Friedman made Sörös look good… Pretends we only had ‘Jew’ finance in Shylock’s times…
Thank you Farkas László for your article over on pestiside that featured the Hungarian entrepreneur,Adolph Zukor.
It is a nostalgic look at the evolution of cinematic film and the people,
like Zukor, who were major players in establishing the movie industry.
It is hard to imagine today that the Hollywood “dream factory”was able to succeed because of the
efforts of not only Zukor, but many other
talented Hungarians. (Later episodes I believe will include theses?)
Great opening night! And I like the format.
Many thanks, once again, FL, for your tireless efforts.
S.
@Laci: “purchased… leased?” There is tons of disinformation and not much that is even half credible — I assume this: “The Contract Area consists of around 184,300 acres, or 75 % of Falcon’s 246,000-acre Production License. The Contract Area will be owned jointly, with Falcon owning a 33 % undivided working interest and ExxonMobil owning a 67 % undivided working interest. The agreement is effective as of 10 April…” http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/company/cne81955.htm still goes. There has also been a lot of friction between farmers and ExxonMobil & Co. whose employees have entered without permission farmland with heavy equipment destroying crop, fences and refusing to leave when they wre told they are on private property and not welcome. (They’ve obviously heard there is no effective police force in the countryside). This “Korai még temetni a ‘makói álmot’, mondta Dr. Szabó György a Falcon-leány TXM Kft igazgatója egy tegnapi sajtóeseményen. Az eddigi kísérletek során semmilyen olyan körülmény nem merült fel, ami pesszimizmusra adhatna okot – fogalmazott az igazgató. Szabó György hozzátette, hogy csupán nehézségek vannak, hiszen óriási technológia kihívások várnak még a társaságra. Amennyiben sikerrel járnak, és 2012-től elindulhat a kereskedelmi kitermelés, akkor azt követően akár az ország teljes gázfogyasztását is biztosítani lehetne a makói kutakból.
@Laci, cont.: “…A nemrégiben napvilágot látott bányakapitányi nyilatkozattal kapcsolatban Szabó György annyit mondott, hogy az számos helyen hibás megállapításokat, következtetéseket tesz, rosszul értelmezi a törvényt, és ezért azonnali felülvizsgálatért folyamodtak a bányahatóságnál….” http://www.portfolio.hu/users/elofizetes_info.php?t=cikk&i=124969 is what they usually lay on you re. Makó Trough/Hajdúság gas, oil, thermal energy. But then Exxon and Exxon owned companies have a history of employing ruses to distract from what they usually do taking home 98% percent of the profits they make ripping off your resources while they destroy your environment. Read Naomi Klein’s Shock Doctrine on the subject, it’s very educational!
Dear Pávaszem,
Thanks much for looking into the matter; I knew you would turn up something.
My worries about this project started when justasking mentioned that Falcon made a press statement around October, to the effect that the results of their exploratory drilling were disappointing. They even talked about capping the well. (I did verify this by going on their website.) Those of you who have been reading my posts on the project well know my concerns about “capping”. What I don’t want is for the Hungarian nation to be shortchanged and “thrown under the bus” (i.e. sacrificed) to maintaining a certain market price.
Two ways that could happen: buy the land, go through the motions of exploration, and then either cap the well or extract at a very reduced rate. Buying the land removes other majors from the picture. The cost of the whole charade is seen as an investment in NOT developing a competing source of supply, as well as keeping others out.
Now Pávaszem’s supplied quotes are interesting and heighten my suspicion level. A director of Falcon’s Hungarian subsidiary, Dr. Szabó György, backtracks from the earlier press releases, and says that such pessimism is unfounded. He also makes it seem like a subordinate mine director has drawn some faulty conclusions that require higher management review….(thrown under the bus!)
At no point could I determine that Falcon’s partners, Exxon and MOL had made statements about the unviability of the project.
This kind of “now you see it-now you don’t” theater is OK for a street juggler or stage magician. When so many hundreds of thousands of acres have been purchased by powerful interests, with the purpose of developing a natural resource that could generate many billions for years, this kind of contradiction and blaming of subordinates is unworthy and unamusing.
Dr. Szabó György is also saying that commercial extraction could well be on for 2012 and could at the least insure domestic needs if not more…. (Well that’s nice; that was the original plan.)
It is my humble suggestions that all political parties keep an eye on this development and be prepared to make it a political issue.
The reason I asked whether the land was bought vs. leased is simple. A lease comes to an end contractually and can be renegotiated, whereas ownership runs indefinitely. The info Pávaszem has found for us indicates ownership. Indeed Falcon owns about 300,000 acres of land outside the Mako filed as well!
If these majors decide to cap the wells, or extract only a tiny fraction of the gas, we are screwed. Allowing them to own the land does not leave us a lot of wiggle room, legally. If we don’t like what they are doing, then the options are few: nationalise (at great blowback to us, as these majors will make a lot of trouble for us if that is done), or introduce “incentives”, making tax rates contingent on production.
Thanks Sandor!
The birthday tribute to film mogul Adolph Zukor looks stunning and takes my breath away! It is a vast upgrade from my two other “Hungarians In Hollywood” entries in terms of layout and appearance. Do check it out at Pesticide .hu:
http://www.pestiside.hu/20100107/when-hungarians-ruled-hollywood-a-birthday-tribute-to-the-great-adolph-zukor/
I again want to thank Erik for the work he did with my text and links. My tributes to Lugosi and Curtiz featured youtube links as just hyperlinks, but this time we have sized picture windows to youtube, and it looks great! There is many hours of viewing pleasure there!
I do support the idea that such material belongs on a sister website rather than a political one.
I have submitted a tribute to Vilma Bánky, not yet published, and plan more tributes to Paul Fejős, film composer Miklós Rózsa, film mogul William Fox (also born in Hungary) and the Kordas. I have encouraged Erik to reuse this material annually upon the birthdays of the people involved.
Much thanks to so many of you for your expressions of support and enjoyment! It is most encouraging and makes it a great pleasure!
@ farkas Laszlo
I just wanted to get your attention and since this thread has become “eclectic” I thought I would ask you here.
I believe you were the person who commented about Prof. Liptak. I started reading about him and read a review of his book ” A Testament of Revolution” will buy it and read it one day.
Anyway, I was interested in his bio and found he had a son named Adam – I have been reading Adam Liptak’s columns for years.
Here is the link about him – is “this Adam Liptak” his son? ( the website and others I tried makes no mention of the father so i could connect them without asking you)
http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/l/adam_liptak/index.html
@olga (and apologies to Laci for butting in): This link http://www.epa.uz.ua/00000/00014/00002/nyh02.htm does seem to confirm that he is the professor’s son “Lipták Ádám, Lipták Béla professzor fia”
Thanks Vandorlo
This is the sentence you drew my attention to, right?
“Lipták Ádám, Lipták Béla professzor fia, aki néhai Czine Mihály tanítványa volt a budapesti ELTE-én. ”
That means the son Adam attended a Hungarian University.
When I read various bios on Adam -(the lawyer whose website info I noted) made no mention of his Hungarian education – Yale was mentioned a lot.
So I wondered if it’s the same Adam but you confimred he was. (the word Budapesti is not in capitals. So I would be torontoi. Interesting)
@olga: The New York Times has opened up their system of categorization (what us techies refer to as their business semantics management. This is written in the RDF, Web Ontology Language and SKOS Simple Knowledge Organization System.)
You can find the entry on Lipták Ádám here:
http://data.nytimes.com/N36473016253176163733
This links to plenty of other sources. I would like to see another source mention the connection as nothing else points to it.
@Laci: “capping the well… maintaining a certain market price” would be SOP for an Allied predator, something they’ve done over and over again all over the globe and certainly in Hungary. Not just in energy but in manufacturing too: observe how GE bought and then dismantled Tungsram-Egyesült Izzó, or how Irisbus did Ikarusz. And we have just discussed on other boards how the French with their Hungarian compradors — and little Swedish helpers — try to tear down our equally robust fowl (duck/goose) industry. And now the Anglos are sniffing around our uranium deposits in the Mecsek-Villány Zone: in Cserkút, Jakabhegy and Kővágótöttös ‘The Kővágótöttös Sandstone Member — grey sequence — ranges from conglomerate to claystone, characterized mainly by grey swamp or horseshoe-lake facies, and subordinately by basin facies, whereas the violet-red Cserkút Sandstone Member — overlying red sandstone — is a thick-bedded formation of pebbly channel facies. The uranium ore — green sandstone bed — was formed at the transition of the latter two members…’ http://www.mafi.hu/microsites/lithosz/angol/triasz_a.html Australian companies on paper but who knows who really owns them. “options are few: nationalise” Nationalize is right. We’re in worse shape than Cuba was in the late 1950′s. We need a revolution too. And while we’re at it we should hang comprador whores like Szabó or Szekeres on the first lámpavas.
@olga: “Lipták Ádám, Lipták Béla professzor fia, aki néhai Czine Mihály tanítványa volt a budapesti ELTE-én. “ ‘Aki’ refers to Lipták Béla, olga… Czine too probably died before Adam was admitted to kindergarten…
Re: “capping the well… maintaining a certain market price” Hey Laci, I just found this: ‘hydraulic fracturing… [or] Fracking, as the industry calls it, involves injecting a million gallons or more of water and chemicals deep underground to pry out gas that’s locked away in tight spaces… fracking may be harming nearby water wells… When he took a shower, there was a foul odor, and the water left rashes on his grandson’s skin. His horses stopped drinking from their trough, and there was an oily film on top of the water. Similar stories are popping up around the country. In Ohio, a couple’s house blew up when gas from their water well filled their basement. A woman in Colorado blames her health problems on the chemicals used for fracking… ‘ http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104565793 Looks like we’re damned now as they don’t and will be screwed when they finlly decide to frack out the Hajduság-Makó Trough gas — if ever… The companies involved certainly have a record of robbing their victims blind and leaving an environmental mess. Just check into any of their operations outside the Anglosphere. Any ideas how we could get rid of the bastards and deal with the BRICs instead?
@Laci, continued: Judging from the news: “Mr. Sharma, who is leading an official and business delegation to Hungary, also addressed the second session of the India-Hungary Joint Commission on Economic Cooperation (JCEC) and Joint Business Commission (JBC) meeting at Budapest. Mr. Sharma also met the leader of opposition and former Prime Minister of Hungary Viktor Orban. A Social Security Agreement was signed between the two countries on the sidelines of the JCEC…” http://beta.thehindu.com/business/companies/article99444.ece I am not the only one this has occurred to… And, hey, check this out! “Hungary has offered Indian students a safe environment for studies in the face of a spate of racial attacks on them in Australia, reported local Indian paper Indian Express Friday quoting a senior Indian official…” http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90853/6889380.html Don’t you just love it?
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