“Fidesz chairman Viktor Orbán knows what he should do but has no room for manoeuvre so there is nothing left for him to do except to utter platitudes,” Jobbik chairman Gábor Vona told MTV Wednesday morning.
“Jobbik has no need to adhere to international norms,” he added.
Vona said the Supreme Court had submitted to pressure from the foreign press when it upheld the dissolution of the Magyar Gárda on Tuesday.
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“Jobbik has no need to adhere to international norms” said Gabor Vona – that’s the first thing I read returning to this site, wll we’ve been told…
@Erik
It would be best if everyone would view the Vona interview and not pick parts out of context and distort what Vona said:
http://barikad.hu/node/42905
Your source says that Vona said, “Jobbik has no need to adhere to international norms,”
Vona said “Jobbiknak nincs nemzetközi megfelelési kényszere.”
The translation is not correct and would seem that intentionally distorted what Vona said. Can I assume that you read Hungarian and there is no need to explain the error?
A little integrity would be nice…
Mark,
“Can I assume that you read Hungarian and there is no need to explain the error.”
I can’t, and since we shouldn’t trust Erik’s Hungarian, could you explain the error, please.
@Sophist: ‘kényszer’ is in no way ‘norms’, more like
‘pressure, coercion etc…’ It does change the
meaning entirely. HATC seem to be taking liberties
with some of their translations.
Yeah that does seem a bit misleading…
@Sophist
The translation is all wrong and I believe that it is intentionally skewed to make Vona appear arrogant. Vona is not arrogant but factual.
I hope that someone on the list who is pro-Hungarian can provide a better translation than the one I offer.
For better or worse, here it goes:
Jobbik is not required to seek international approval
All these people going crazy jumping on Jobbik and Magyar Garda should remember that they have never harmed anyone while some of their critics are guilty of mass murder of Gaza Palestinians or providing aid to the mass murder of Gaza Palestinians by not protesting the ongoing slaughter. A little perspective would not hurt…
@Mark: Sorry, don’t like your translation either, there is no mention of seeking approval. I know I’m not on your list, nor hopefully any of your compatriots, as what you call ‘pro’, but I would translate is as something like “Jobbik is not subject to reciprocal International pressure”. Ambiance offer ‘…Jobbik that doesn’t have international obligations’. I consider ‘obligation’ too soft and misleading also. Force, pressure, will… these are all closer. Vona’s statement is fairly strong and clear. He basically doesn’t give a shit what anyone else thinks, unless of course his friends in the Kremlin or Iraq’s Presidency Council call.
Why should Vona Gabor buckle to the International community who lead Hungary to this current situation? We are not the slaves of the International Oligarchs.
He is here to represent Hungarians interest not the International community who are destroying our Sovereignty.
He is here to represent Hungarians interest not the International community who are destroying our Sovereignty.
Law at December 17, 2009 3:50 PM
—-
Which ‘Sovereignty’?
The other day your best friend Bob claims that the Lisbon Treaty took it away.
2004 some other morons claimed it disappeared when Hungary joined the EU.
So how many times can you lose the ‘Sovereignty’ and still keep it?
Obviously more often than your virginity.
So your strategy Viking is to defeat Law’s point by making it for him?
That’s a new one on me.
The Xmas eggnog must be kicking in.
Vona said “Jobbiknak nincs nemzetközi megfelelési kényszere.”
The 2 crucial words:
‘megfelelési’ (as an adjective) means: compliance, obedience, submission, deference, etc.
‘kényszer’ (as a property of Jobbik’s behavior, as opposed to an outside force) means: compulsion, fixation, urge, etc.
Thus, the whole sentence means:
Jobbik has no international submission urge.
Very precise wording by Vona.
In common English usage it means:
Jobbik has no hang-up regarding current international standards.
It is a psychological phrase.
Mark,
I went to my Magyar Angol and it said:
Kényszer fn compulsion, constraint, force, forcibleness, pressure, stress “jog” corecion, duress.
Since the context is legal (jog=jogtudomány) it looks like Van is winning.
But in the same week as Jobbik takes the Hungarian Government to the European Court it seems a strange claim to make. Will Jobbik itself abide by the judgements of the European court in the future or only when those judgements support its own agenda?
My wife says “Kutya fasza” when I ask her, what she feels about the jobos – shouldn’t we all think the same ?
You can’t reason with those idiots – let them rot in their own feces…
It seems that the expression in question is an important theme for Vona/Jobbik. It popped up again during a Jobbik press conference announcing the release of Jobbik’s program on Jan. 16, 2010.
Dúró Dóra spokesperson said that the programnak
“egyetlen megfelelési kényszere lesz: a magyar emberek érdeke”.
The program will have only one compulsion to conform to: the interests of the Hungarian people.
@Sophist,
it is NOT a legal issue, it’s an internal compunction, a driving force of principles.
I wonder how this expression is translated into Russian on Jobbik’s website (or elsewhere) and whether Putin likes the expression also…
So your strategy Viking is to defeat Law’s point by making it for him?
bobscountrybunker at December 17, 2009 9:32 PM
—-
I have no problem understanding you do have a problem understanding, nothing is more easy to understand.
Law/Ricsi’s “argumentation” normally changes over time, so claiming to lose the same thing several times is just logical for them.
On the other hand, as a EU Federalist, I personally have no problem with any EU member states losing its ‘Sovereignty’.
I have always felt disgust for people who claim that it is up to their ‘Nation’ to decide something, when they immediately run to the EU/International organs to cry, like Morvai in the European Parliament always requesting an International Commission to investigate the riots 2006.
Double standard and consequent, as usual from populists.
@Translator (Bobs…): This does come down to whether the force, compulsion, pressure etc… is internally or externally motivated. I’m not convinced that it is clearly one or the other, rather both. The phrase ‘megfelelési kényszer’ is often used to in contexts to mean the pressure to conform (to an external standard or group/peer pressure) e.g. “A megfelelési kényszer egyszerűen elnyomja az egyéniségünket, kreativitásunkat és elfojtja a vágyainkat.” ( http://bit.ly/8Fq7N4 ). In most cases this is external pressure, not internal. At the very least is this not the ‘compulsion to respond’ as in ‘Jobbik has no compulsion to respond to International pressure’ (which adds the possessive form back that I struggled to fit in with my wording)?
I agree on the clarity of Vona’s language. Jobbik are far better at communicating with their supporters (and perhaps potential ones) than other parties.
Vandorlo,
Your point and reference is well taken.
However, from the sentence itself (“Jobbiknak nincs nemzetközi megfelelési kényszere.”), it is quite clear that the pressure is external (international) but the motivation tu submit, or rather lack of it, is internal. This is indicated precisely by the use of the possessive (i.e. “Jobbiknak nincs … kényszere”). If this referred to the lack of outside pressure it would make no sense at all.
This may seem like pointless semantics to some (or most) but I don’t think it is.
The reason for that is: the carefully constructed sentences (Vona’s and his spokeperson’s) are grammatically correct but awkward. The expression itself “megfelelési kényszer” sounds like a translation. Maybe not from Russian. It could be one of those very long compound German words. Could be Fraud. It strikes me as something from an old Marxism textbook.
Maybe WOLFI could help us out… What is the German equivalent of “megfelelési kényszer”, properly spelled? We may find surprising relationships of this. Does Vona speak Russian or German? Does he have an academic background? If so in what field?
Vandorlo,
by the way, I’m not bobscountrybunker or city bunker. Far from it. Isn’t he Stan?
Translator,
“it is NOT a legal issue, it’s an internal compunction, a driving force of principles.”
Maybe, but the context the original report gave was comments about the supreme court. So what sort of issue is it about?
Context and collocation and vital in the choice of English words, for example;
“The program will have only one compulsion to conform to: the interests of the Hungarian people.”
For example I don’t think one can CONFORM to compulsion (rather SUBMIT) – collocation. Nor can INTEREST be seen as a form of compulsion, (rather CAUSE) – context.
Vona should not buckle down to anyone! The Soviet Union never recovered from the Hungarian Uprising, losing its credibility as a people’s democracy all they had left is their inhuman dictatorship. Hungarians are in the forefront of the battle against the inhuman global financial interests and their brutality against those resisting their destructive colonization efforts. There is one thing very different from 1956. Hungary is not alone. Jobbik is gaining friends amongst those who are also disaffected by the dictatorial and corrupt EU.
Orban is making a very big mistake not supporting Jobbik and Magyar Garda. Losing his already questionable “nemzeti” credentials could send his party down the road of destruction. Hungarians may not agree with everything about Jobbik (they would if theyr took the time to read Jobbik’s program) but they resent the treatment of Jobbik and Magyar Garda by this alien, Communist government, its police and courts. Each time they go after Jobbik and Magyar Garda, they get more supporters amongst the Hungarian electorate. When all said is done, that is the only thing that matters, not the domestic and foreign enemies of Hungarian people.
Adjon az Isten szebb jövőt!
@ Translator
Your translation is better and I like your analysis.
@ Sophist
You are mixing apples and oranges. Nice try but no cigar…
@Mark with NO BALLS – “Vona should not buckle down to anyone”. Nice touch coming from a coward Hungarian!
These unending and very tiresome references to wolfi’s “Kutya fasza-Hungarian wife” reminds me of a story of German soldiers having a sex orgy in occupied Paris. As one of the Germs was boasting about having conquered not only Paris but also the French women, one of the whores replied that they may have conquered Paris and may screw the French whores but they will never have the French women unless they rape them.
@mark:
A Hungarian woman would surely not take you for a man – my wife is a thousand times more Hungarian than you little shit…
Why are you jobos on this site at all ?
You are not really interested in Hungary, you don’t live here, you have no real connection to today’s Hungary – living in the past like most Jobbik people…
@Translator: You convinced me. But then, I am not sure that this is what Vona actually said after all, having finally found the recording (via kuruc.info).
The sentence is at about 7:18. Just before this he speaks about the other parties’ motivation coming from elsewhere Internationally, against which Jobbik’s stance is clearly differentiated (from 6:50).
The sentence I hear is slightly different from the one everyone is quoting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwDQo8YVMoE
From about 7:18 he say: ” Nekem és Jobbiknak egy megfelelési kényszer van, nincs nemzetközi megfelelési kenyszer bennünk, egy, hogy a magyar nemzetnek, a magyar embereknek feleljük meg. Az ő erdekében….”
So it is clear that the context is how other parties the pressures conform to external and International demands, he and Jobbik have only one governing principle. ‘I and Jobbik have only one guiding/governing principle, we are not subject to International pressure, one, that of answering to the Hungarian nation, the Hungarian state. In their interests…’.
Obviously I translate ‘megfelelési kenyszer’ two different ways in that quote. I’ve had a search on the EU database and through my dictionaries (10+) but not much offered in way of help.
Anyway, as you state this is clearly talking about Jobbik’s internal motivation in response to external pressure.
Get off your medication, Wolfi you’re insane.
@NB Mark – so, if we apply your logic:
a. if some Indians are child molesters, then all Indians are child molesters
b. if some some Germans were rapists, then all Germans are rapists.
c. if some Hungarian women are hookers and porn star, what does that make your mother?
I am not going to reply by talking dirt about your mother, you child molester Indian filth because she and most of the women and little girls in your country have enough problems without adding to them. Every one of you filthy child molesters should be castrated to give the women and little girls of your country a break.
Mark,
“You are mixing apples and oranges” How so?
Van. and Trans. seem to agree that Vona is talking about “Jobbik’s internal motivation in response to external pressure.” What external pressure are we talking about?
@Sophist: It’s not clear from whom or what, just that the other parties ‘wake up and take calls from Washington, Moscow etc… but Jobbik are not motivated by those thing’. He talks about this just before launching into the quote.
It’s the “I’m my own man” line and no-one tells me what to do round here. Otherwise known as the proud delinquent, as demonstrated so clearly by Bush.
This line obviously has appeal and is in line, largely, with how Hungarians view themselves so it will resonate much more widely the words of other parties.
@Sophist: “You are mixing apples and oranges” How so?
I interpret Vona’s statement that Jobbik is not forced to seek the approval of outsiders when serving the interests of Hungarian people. Much of the negatives in the domestic and foreign media come from those who want to destroy those who defend Hungary from colonial interests. MSZP or SZDSZ, packed with Communist murderers, their children and grandchildren, calling Jobbik far right means nothing.
Jobbik is fast gaining allies in the EU and as they get stronger, they will change the EU from its current dictatorial form to one of association of free and independent nations. I see no contradiction between Vona’s statement and the desire of Jobbik and others who agree with Jobbik to change the EU and Jobbik challenging the court decision reminiscent of Rakosi “konszepcios perek” to the European court of human rights.
I made my reference to mixing apples and oranges in response to your statement that “But in the same week as Jobbik takes the Hungarian Government to the European Court it seems a strange claim to make. Will Jobbik itself abide by the judgements of the European court in the future or only when those judgements support its own agenda?”
The two are not the same.
Mark,
“The two are not the same.”
OK, I’m not sure what you want to say, but the only two I think you are referring to are:
“those who want to destroy those who defend Hungary from colonial interests”
and
The European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR)
If so I agree with you, they are certianly not the same.
However, the point I was trying to make is that the ECtHR is a source of external pressure.
@NB Mark – which part of I do not come from India did you not understand?
As for being a “child molester”, I guess I can’t expect all Hungarian hookers to bring up their children to think rationally.
Every one of you filthy child molesters should be castrated to give the women and little girls of your country a break:
Nearly 25 million women in India were married in the year 2007 by the age of 18, said the report released on Tuesday, which noted that children in India, Nepal and Pakistan may be engaged or even married before they turned 10.
Millions of children are also being forced to work in harmful conditions, or face violence and abuse at home and outside, suffering physical and psychological harm with wide-reaching, and sometimes irreparable effects, the report said.
The Magyar Gárda and Jobbik are not responsible for Hungary’s current pathetic showing on economic and social,issues.
If Jobbik are elected (I don’t think so) we can judge their performance accordingly.
Gábor Vona is not Bajnai. And Jobbik are neither the MSZP or Fidesz.
Why waste time trying to analyze and/or interpret
those people you think are fools?
Bajnai Gordon, and Orban Viktor, and the former pm, Gyurscany Ferenc, have no credibility as far as I am concerned.
A large number of Hungarians feel the same way.
It is a sad day that we spend so much time worrying about Morvai and Gábor. Isn’t it?
@ Mark
You know my thoughts about JOBBIK -no point in repetition. I just want to understand certain things from your perspective.
Pavaszem pointed out I don’t really grasp Hungarian politics – unfortunately true.
So moving along – If Magyarorszag is for Magyars and there is a lot of foreign ownership, the only way it would revert to Magyar hands is to take the assets away – that’s what the Communists did, didn’t they? So what are the plans to achieve the goal?
Is Vona expecting to change the EU to suit his agenda or get out of the EU? I am not sure how a country leaves the EU but even it that was possible, that would leave Hungary totally isolated, would it not?
You, like a previous Texan named Tom defined who was “Hungarian” – If all I knew about Hungary is that it’s in Europe. never set foot in it since 1956, I would still be Hungarian because I was born there. Not debatable and not open to subjective interpretation. My kids (one very interested in the country one is not) are half Hungarian and half WASP. Not arguable.
On another topic -I spent over 20 years of my life dealing with various aspects of children’s rights. Calling CG a child molester because of political differences trivializes the horrors of child abuse.
I am am weary of men who use the term “whore” They tend to classify all women into only two categories: evil sexual temptress or saintly “wife material” – Life is really not black and white. Lots of shades of grays – including in politics
@Olga
The only reason why I am saddened by the way, you turned out is because you are doing injustice not only to yourself but also to your parents who did not lie to you about Communists and the evil that they represent. I can understand, not accept but understand similar bias from people I can tell who they are from the hate they show for everything Hungarian but not from you. You should consider what your life and the life of your children would be if you and your children were living in Hungary dominated by brutal, sadistic Jewish Communists for the past 65 years. These Communist monsters cast the Hungarians, decent hard working Hungarians into such poverty that people die of hunger and freeze to death while they are getting super rich. I think you know where you and your family would be but that is easy to forget because remembering and accepting who you are and where you belong is sometimes a very hard thing to do.
This is why I respect Law far more than I respect anyone else on this list. He could have just said never mind to his roots and his heritage and his life could have been as easy and as free of hardships as most children of Hungarian refugees. Nobody could have blamed him for not taking the hard road just I do not blame you for denying your Hungarian heritage. However, I blame you for expressing opinions, hateful opinions against those Hungarians who want to reclaim their country for themselves and their children and Hungarian generations to come. When you side with the Hungarian haters, you side against your parents and all the other Hungarians who suffered and still suffer.
I suggest that you do not take the sides of the foreign trash that are here only to smear Hungarians because you are nothing like them.
@ Mark
I am very proud of my Hungarian heritage – that’s the only reason I got involved with this website.
It seems that I am just “not Hungarian enough” by subjective definitions
We disagree on some very basic issues.
“You should consider what your life and the life of your children would be if you and your children were living in Hungary dominated by brutal, sadistic Jewish Communists for the past 65 years”
“Sadistic Communists” cannot be denied nor “sadistic Nazis” – they are dead and gone.
As far as sadistic Communists are concerned who cares if they were Jewish, Christian or Muslims? Evil is an “equal opportunity employer”
To the best of my knowledge , Communists have not tortured anyone since Hungary became a Democracy present day Hungary has been plagued by Corrupt politicians -huge problem. Hungary does not have the market cornered on that – Canada & the USA has plenty of corruption and plenty of poverty
Who are the Hungarian haters? Viking whose kids are half Hungarian, resides there and supports the economy? Vandorlo, Wolfi, Sophist, Curious George et al could all leave but they stay, pay taxes and have families there? If I were a true Patriot, I’d move to BP , get involved with politics ; even if I made very little difference, at least I’d know I was not just an outsider looking in.
I purposely wrote nothing negative about JOBBIK in my last posting – I don’t understand how
the party would deal with the 2 points I inquired about. So please elaborate
@OLga
I get to your questions but first want to correct some of your statements:
1. “Sadistic Communists” cannot be denied nor “sadistic Nazis” – they are dead and gone.
Not true. Some of the sadistic Communists are still with us and not one of them had to pay for his crimes.
2. As far as sadistic Communists are concerned who cares if they were Jewish, Christian or Muslims?
Does that mean that we do not want to know who the Nazis and Arrowcross were? Maybe they were Jewish or Muslim?
3. To the best of my knowledge , Communists have not tortured anyone since Hungary became a Democracy
Not true! The Communists tortured many people in October, 2006.
4. Vandorlo, Wolfi, Sophist, Curious George et al could all leave but they stay, pay taxes and have families there?
Rakosi, Gero, Bauer, Apro also lived there, all Hungarian haters. I do not believe that the people you listed are taxpayers, more likely speculators contributing to the poverty of Hungarians.
@Olga
This is in response to one of your questions. Try translating it but if you cannot I or someone else can do it for you:
24. Mit tehet a Jobbik az eladott nemzeti vagyon visszaszerzése érdekében?
A Jobbik az erős állam híve, az erős államhoz azonban a nemzeti vagyont is meg kell erősíteni. Mivel a lopott holmi visszajár, ezért jelenleg kapcsolatban vagyunk egy neves jogászokból álló csoporttal, amely a nemzeti vagyon visszaszerzésének és a számonkérésnek a jogi lehetőségeit dolgozza ki. Ahol visszaélés történt, ott a helyzet egyértelmű, ahol pedig papíron jogszerű volt a nemzeti vagyon kiárusítása, de az stratégiai ágazatot érintett, ott a magyar államnak vissza kell vásárolnia azt.
@No Balls Mark – What have events in India, Nepal, or Pakistan have to do with me? Are you on crack?
@Olga
This is in response to your second question, also in Hungarian. I will translate it when I have time to do a proper job unless “Translator” does it first. I do not represent Jobbik but I am getting these answers off a Jobbik questionnaire and trust that they reflect Jobbik’s positions:
7. Mi a Jobbik véleménye az Európai Unióról?
A mi Európánk nem a jelenlegi föderális, a nemzeteket eltaposó EU, hanem a Nemzetek Európája. Leginkább az EU-realista kifejezés illik ránk. Reálisan látjuk, hogy ez az EU nem vezet sehová, csak a szétesésbe. Ezzel szemben a nemzetek szabad együttműködésén és egyenlőségén alapuló összefogást maximálisan támogatjuk.
The Communists tortured many people in October, 2006
Mark at December 18, 2009 6:17 PM
—
How many?
Where?
Where is the documentation?
Was not the Parliament that elected the Government not democratically elected in 2006?
That you do not like the election result is another thing, but I suppose you loved it when your President Bush got elected both in 2000 and 2004.
Please, do we have to draw US politics into this? I voted for Bush 2x over the losers he was running against but I share not of the warped opinions of these twats. Their opinions are just the same as some democrats such as urban union workers…populist, blame everyone else, losers.
Vandorlo,
Thanks for the link.
I basically agree with everything you said above.
The expression “megfelelési kényszer” seems to be a widely used pop-psychology phrase. Googleing “megfelelési kényszer” and psychology together clearly proves this. It shows up in several academic theses also. I still believe it is a translation from German.
Wolfi, can you help???
More interestingly, if you google “megfelelési kényszer” and “Vona Gábor” together you get to see a clear fondness of the term.
Searching Jobbik.hu for “megfelelési kényszer” turns up four hits, going all the way back to 2004.
@Sophist,
The external pressure they talk about may be real or imagined. It is probably both. Furthermore, an imagined external pressure works just as well as a real one.
You also said: “”The program will have only one compulsion to conform to: the interests of the Hungarian people.”
For example I don’t think one can CONFORM to compulsion (rather SUBMIT) – collocation. Nor can INTEREST be seen as a form of compulsion, (rather CAUSE) – context.”
You are correct, of course, one cannot conform to compulsion. One, however, can have the compulsion to conform, which is what the above quote actually says.
Maybe it would be clearer this way: ‘The program will have the compulsion to conform to one thing only: the interests of the Hungarian people’.
Trans.,
“One, however, can have the compulsion to conform, which is what the above quote actually says.”
I agree that “one can have the/a compulsion to conform” but not that one can have “the compulsion to conform to one thing only: the interests of the Hungarian people’.
If you can choose what you to conform to, it’s not a compulsion, which implies the absence of choice.
Besides – “egy/egy” in Hungarian but “a/one” in English, you may be able to equivocate in Hungarian, you can’t in English.
And – you still can’t “conform” to something’s “interests” whether you are compelled to or otherwise.
We tried to translate but my Hungarian is just not good enough – and dictionaries are not much help here…
Kenyszer = compulsion seems ok, according to my wife, but the rest…
On a different level: I looked up several jobo sites, they seem to like the word söpredek in connection with the gypsies…
Also one interview with Vona Gabor in German from 2008 is still on jobbik.com where he reiterates the (in)famous statement assigned to Simon Peres “We not only bought Manhattan, we’ve also already bought Poland and Hungary”.
Can anybody explain to me where this nonsense came from ?
@Wolfi: I’ll think you find that Jobbiks are commonly referred to, pretty universally, as ‘az emberiség söpredéke’ (the dregs of the earth/humanity).
Vandorloo .. your a dead man walking!!
No one can any lower the you and your Jewish Neo
Liberal corrupt commies and people you’re a Cunt!
@Law: How do you feel about the importance of freedom of speech. Do you and Jobbik respect it? If this is what you are like to some verbal criticism – the exact same as you use against those you dislike – then what chance is there of you all respecting democratic principles? Truth is you and Jobbik don’t. You can see the strain as Vona and the leadership tries to keep you animals herded and obedient.
And you say that you lot aren’t far right?
@Mark: How’s your translation coming along? Not well I presume. I’d love to see how you think those two quotes are supposed to be answers to the questions Olga raised. All fluff no substance – nothing changed there then.
Magyar Garda meetings have been band, where is the
Freedom of Speech, Expression or Democray?!!
Jobbik has been smeared as a Radical far right
Fascist group in the media, You and your Ilk are
nothing but Cunts! Hiding behind the veil of Free
speech, everyone here knows this, only your rat pack
is here spinning the shit. The only person here is
your stinking self your trying to convince.
@Law: Well at least here you are free to saw whatever you want (within the law) and Erik has offered the most open and robust platform for you to convince others. Lots of people have asked plenty of open and direct questions about Jobbik policy and as you none of you have been able to answer any of them clearly. In Bobs… case it’s not through lack of ability, it’s simply that he doesn’t know, because Jobbik don’t provide information or have a policy on anything of any substance. Buying back what was previously state property, hunting down the “traitors”, enforcing their moral code with an unconstitutional ad-hoc Home Guard, getting back pre-Trianon borders irrespective of the will of the people that live there now etc…
You are constantly asked the specifics of how, why and with what authority and none of you ever have an answer. Mark gropes about with Hungarian he doesn’t really understand cutting and pasting his way through life. It’s all completely embarrassing and ridiculous.
Law, do yourself and Jobbik a favour, pretend you understand and respect democratic principles.
@Law, Mark, Ricsi etc…: Since you claim to be Hungarian, none of you will have any difficulty understanding a clip from the film ‘Az ötödik pecsét’ (directed by Zoltán Fábri, 1976).
Early on in the film they are sat round a table discussing pretty timeless, intractable questions, during which the remark is made: ‘this is where the problems start, with abnormal people who demand that we should drink whatever they think fit’: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZBzLAsJQ4c (at about 3.20, I also love the little bit 4.58-5.10)
Basically the struggle between people who seek to impose on others their chosen value system and lifestyle. Instead of live and let live.
Do any of you understand it? And it’s significance in relation to Jobbik?
@Law
The Communist murderers do not believe in free speech. Why the Communist MSZP would chose as their leader Ildiko Lendvai, the Communist censor of MSZMP?
Take heart my friend that Jobbik is getting stronger by the day in spite of non-stop smear campaign in the domestic and foreign “neo-liberal” media.
@Mark: I am not an MSZP supporter, I have made that repeatedly clear. I find Lendvai as abhorrent as you do, particularly given her role as a censor under communism.
Trying to tar everyone who does agree with you with the same brush is tiresome, lazy and, well, childish. If you really believe in Jobbik and their potential for good, why do you not even try to discuss and represent that?
I have made it pretty clear that of all the parties MDF would be the one I’d lump for.
Sure, you attended a Jesuit school and my Arizona home has a beautiful ocean view
If not for the support of Communist MSZP, a couple of MDF leaders Dávid and Herényi would be in jail now. MDF became a front for the Communists ever since Dávid took over. They blackmail and ban those who disagree with her and her criminal cohorts. There is no MDF, only an MSZP front called MDF.
@Vandorloo
You and your gang of misfit Neo Liberals are the
ones who target anyone who is a Hungarian patriot
as a Fascist, Racist, Anti Semite or Fool. Having
experienced when questioning politics history etc
was your low type who helped awaken me to seeing
who are the corrupt, hypocritical and closed
minded individuals, before coming to Hungary I was
a liberal thinking person and loved the whole save
the world against Homophobia, Racism, Anti
Semitism, Green House Gases , Poverty etc . I
discovered very quickly this is all a scam. When
you see the Hypocrisy of the regime ruling here
and globally, how they persecute people who step
in the danger zone when their questioning and
movements become a threat to exposing that the
emperor has no clothes on.
cont
Here is a small snippit of words from a true
Hungarian patriot Bobscountrybunker copied..
It is so natural and unquestioned in all who
promote the socio-liberal ideology to the
exclusion of the facts. Reality for them is,
literally, a foreign country. And you cannot even
see past your own navels. When you get your way ‘,
that farmer will be dead: inside and out. Killed
by the Roma gypsy robbing him at one end, and the
multi-national robbing him from the other. He has
no French dominance of the CAP to protect him. And
there will be no organic produce for anyone
anymore.
Again. they would deny ALL future Hungarians the
privileges and taken advantage of and now enjoy.
And when any actual Hungarian dares to come here
and call you on this hypocrisy of yours, what do
you do? Like some sort of atonal robotic automaton
you just splutter unthinkingly: “FASCIST! FASCIST!
FASCIST!! FASCIST!! FASCIST!!!”.
With this in mind, are you surprised then, that
when you come here every day to spout all your
high and mighty bullshit; that the actual
Hungarians who visit Hungary criticize and condemn
you as hypocrites?
You are blind, so blind, by your own choice.
@Vandorlo:
Wow, you really brought out the “best” in Law, he must really feel it…
@ Mark
I struggled through the two Hungarian postings and I think I actually understood them. Maybe not as well as I should but got the message.
So here is my problem with the properties. (I am making assumptions so if they are wrong, someone please correct me. )
The one big Hungarian word I remember is “eltulajdonitottak” – the Communists stole private properties. So rather than think big, as in all of Hungary, let’s just think of only BP – it will be the same all over the country
There are hundreds (thousands?) of apartment buildings, stores and businesses that were privately owned and became the property of the State overnight. When Communism fell, these properties were state owned and still are (am I wrong?) – The rent received from these properties sustain the State regardless of which political party is in power.
Before discussing “the big picture” and foreign ownership, these properties were all stolen from private individuals – returning them
would be impossible. I posted before that I met a man who claimed his family castle was stolen and was suing the government to get it back. What if every owner whose now state owned castle was turned into a hotel at the cost of millions of dollars wanted his castle back ? Or his apartment buildings/factories?
The point is that if you promise to buy back foreign owned properties what about the properties the “Magyar allom” owns illegally? Stolen goods.
Promise sounds ok, but it’s impossible to keep.
Isn’t it?
A deeper hole is being dug for us all by individuals that believe the reclamation of property and goods by divine right (or,other)
from foreigners is ok.
Many foreign businesses operate in the UK successfully. Much better than the homegrown variety. What’s the problem?
The French company, ONYX, operated a refuge collecting service in the UK for years. Absolutely brilliant and not that expensive.
Those individuals that aspire to replace the current
bunch of commie cranks are, in my opinion, not much different and, harbor many dubious and dangerous policies that will lead this nation even closer to the brink of disaster.
@ Mark
The second Hungarian posting about the EU was more difficult but I understood that in Vona’s opinion the EU was going nowhere and then talked about Nationalism being trampled upon.
It’s kind of “my way or the highway” – I believe the whole point of a Union is that the countries have to be team players and being part of the union will have its advantages and disadvantages
Hopefully the benefit of being part of the Union outweighs the liabilities.
I don’t understand the intricacies of every benefit/liability of being an EU member but what exactly does Vona plan to do if the EU does not meet his demands? Leave the EU? Even if that were possible, Hungary would be totally isolated.
My father-in -law told me about a Toronto business he worked for delivering milk to homes in the 30′s (40′s?) The employees wanted to form a Union and the owner said if they do, he will close the company. They did, he closed it and people lost their jobs. Not debating if that was right or wrong – the owner gave an ultimatum. What is Vona’s plan “B” if the EU refuses to meet his demands?
@ Vandorlo
You always give me a straight answer
So “I find Lendvai as abhorrent as you do, particularly given her role as a censor under communism. ”
How the hell did this woman get elected?
Why did former Communists get elected?
Is it like Israel electing former SS officers? ( hypothetical question, those people are dead but you know what I mean)
@Olga
I like Jobbik’s patriotic fervor and support their program but I am not a spokesperson for Jobbik. I agree with their proposals outlined in the texts I provided for you but I cannot tell you how they will proceed under this or that circumstance. I can only offer my opinions.
In America and trust in Canada property obtained by dishonest means is the confiscated and returned to the rightful owner. The thief who sold the stolen property would be punished while the recipient of stolen goods would be out of luck.
Jobbik is gaining friend who see the problems of EU the same as Jobbik does. If the opposition gains strength, the EU will have to change or lose some of its members. Hungary may be a small player but in a few years, major players could also join those who wish to preserve their national identity.
Hey Mark
Read your posting – gotta leave, will respond.
I the meantime I just looked at another thread and a posting:
“It doesn’t matter which party you vote for. The net result will be the same. Chaos.
There are no qualified politicians in this country”
LOL so the communist who are running are better? We are already in runn. Lower we can not get.
SveaMagyar ”
God, I love people who come to the point….now if he offered a viable solution he would be perfect
There is a complication to this with returning nationalised property.
- Who was really the rightful owner?
The thief that stole it from the Jew that was sent off to be killed, or the Jew that the thief stole it from?
At the time of nationalisation the thief was the ‘right-full’ owner.
@Olga: A brief potted biography of Lendvai would be:
Joined MSZMP (Communist workers party) 1974. Involved in suppressing 80s alternative music scene just as it got a taste for showing resistance to the regime. Involved in banning literary publications working alongside notorious censor Vas. 1989 helped form MSZP, or rather botch together the old communists under a different name. Instead of becoming MP became manager of publishing house Gondolat. So straight from her knowledge of censoring publishers to becoming one herself. poacher turned game keeper. Remained member of ‘new’ MSZP, returning to frontline politics in 1994, from where she has moved slowly up the rank, though always being central to MSZP PR campaigns. She is now second after Mesterházy on candidate list. This last 6 months she has been groaning on about MSZP simply needing to own up to its problems but not needing fundamental change (there’s nothing wrong with the MSZP that can’t be solved with what’s right with the MSZP crap).
Specifically I simply object to a communist censor being an MP in a modern democracy. One who cynically curtailed others freedom of expression and thought and then switched overnight to someone who directly profits from exactly the same things.
@ Mark & Vandorlo
It was not my intent to debate JOBBIK.
Whenever any politician makes promises, I step back and try to figure out how they can be operational – as soon as I thought of “Stalin and Co.’s stolen properties” I realized the whole Vona property platform was an impossible task.
I don’t think Vona addressed those issues per se but I am sure he would not want to keep stolen properties or buy back the ones that were stolen. ( There may be a plethora of now foreign owned properties that were stolen to begin with so if Vona buys them back, he would be a “fence”. I am sure that’s not his intent.) That promise is a logistic nightmare. Bad enough politicians in general won’t keep promises they could keep ,but who needs politicians that make commitments that are pie in the sky?
@ Vandorlo. Thanks for Ildiko’s background. If it were not so revolting that this woman is an elected official, it would be funny. Nothing to laugh about given the circumstances.
You would think that FIDESZ and MSZP would have PR advisors or poltical strategists advising them to get rid of every single person in their respective party who could be proven to have had Communist Party ties.
Political corruption is not limited to Hungary or Communists so that’s a complete other issue.
I have no problems comprehending the reasons why parties like JOBBIK. BNP, etc. exist.
Why former Communists are now elected officials in Democratic Hungary is beyond my realm of understanding.
Why former Communists are now elected officials in Democratic Hungary is beyond my realm of understanding
olga at December 20, 2009 3:03 AM
—-
If you get your picture of what is happening and has been happening in Hungary the last 100 years from sources like Ricsi (Law, Tom, Tim, Mark) much things are not so easy to understand.
The black-and-white picture, supported with a US Cold War context, is that it was a few ‘Communists’ and then the rest of the oppressed people.
-
Reality was of course much more complexed:
Society always consists of individuals who wants to improve the situation for other people and other individuals who just work to improve the conditions for themselves.
Both type of individuals existed both inside the only party allowed (MSZMP). Just to be a member of and active in the only party allowed, does not make you a bad person automatically. Your actual actions should be evaluated and in the context valid at the time it happened.
-
Another ingredients with how to evaluate peoples affiliation to the only party allowed is that many people needed to be a member to be able to get a good job, so this was hardly a decision built on political agreement.
-
This type of analyses above is not unique for Hungary before 1990, it is equally valid for Germany before 1945.
Even if the Nazi-hunt existed after -45, we all know that many ex-NSDAP members still were elected both in BDR and DDR.
Obviously the Electorate does not have so big problems with that and they decide
@ Vikling
Of course you are right about “Just to be a member of and active in the only party allowed, does not make you a bad person automatically.”
It is confusing to read various allegations about today’s Communists ( it negates the sufferings of the real Communists victims of the Stalinist era)
However, after reading the bio and comments on Ildiko Lendvai posted by Vandorlo, I don’t think this woman has any business to hold political office.
I only “know” Mesterhazy from a brief youtube video, but he sounded impressive and hopefully he is too young to have any Communist connections.
So being tied to someone like Lendvai must be a huge liability when it comes to rebuilding a party.
Moreover 20 years have passed since 1989 – there should be a whole new breed of politically savvy politicians who care about their country and have absolutely no connection to former Communists. I can understand that in 1989, the only experienced politicians had to come from the one and only political party that existed. That’s
not the case today
Hungary needs a Hungarian “Obama” – I am not suggesting his political beliefs. S/he could be Left , Right, Center whatever. Someone who can “rally the troops”, not shaded by political corruption, can give Hungarians hope and makes
promises that are feasible if not sabotaged by conflicting interests.
I know, once again I am probably showing how little I understand Hungarians.
Olga,
In the end I think it is mainly “wallet”-questions that affects a normal election, like ‘how am I suppose to get more money’.
In 1990-94 it was the new guys on the block, the old MDF, that took over.
Already in 1994 the new MSZP, which represented some continuity from the pre-1990 era, made a come back.
Why?
Were not people afraid to get the old ‘Communists’ back?
Or, did they see the ‘Old Garde’ as manifested in MSZP as better Leaders and Managers of Hungary, than the old MDF?
I think people did this, because the ‘Old Garde’ had experience in running a country.
It is very similar to why it was so hard for the non-Socialist parties in Sweden to win elections 2 times in a row. The few times they were allowed to win (mostly due to the Swedish Socialists being in disarray), they did not have enough clever people to run the country in a successful way. They were good at opposition, but being in Government is a total different ball-game
-
So the main question is really is Fidesz so big in opinion polls, because they are better politicians, or is the current MSZP been so bad the last years so they are making Fidesz look so good?
Hopefully Fidesz will be better prepared to take the task of Government in 2010, than they were in 1998. The rhetoric does not show this though, but hey that is just for the election period…
—
Cont
Cont
-
Given the history of MSZMP/MSZP you do have PM Horn, who was later exposed as probably been active in the 1956 events on the repressive side.
Germany still regarded him as instrumental in the process of 1989 and see him as a Good Person for those actions.
Of course if one just see 1989 as another chapter of the ‘Jewish Communist TakeOver’, well then you would not share the view of the Germans.
-
In the life of politics we now see the current MSZP Government rushing through legislation to make pre-1990 documents available. Probably to piss off their old ‘Comrades’ and partners in arms from the old MSZMP-time that now are in Fidesz.
These Fidesz-Communists are of course excused by Vona and his friends. They are regarded as Good Persons, just because they are with Fidesz and not MSZP.
Why the difference?
“These Fidesz-Communists are of course excused by Vona and his friends. They are regarded as Good Persons, just because they are with Fidesz and not MSZP.”
This is a lie.
@Mark: A further shortened and redacted version of the short list I gave on December 8th at 12h24. Hope it helps to concentrate your limited mental capacity:
You are being too modest. Why not give a more complete lists of former communists, informers, secret service operatives that are now in power or are still trying their best to get back in power?
Here’s a starter for you:
Stumpf István – MSZMP tag, Hazafias Népfront alelnök,
Csurka István – III/III együttműködő,
Csintalan Sándor MSZMP és MSZP tag
Schmitt Pál – MOB tag
Mikola István – Hazafias Népfront,
Fónagy János – MSZMP tag,
Szabadi Béla – MSZMP tag, munkásőr,
Varga Mihály – KISZ titkár,
Deutsch Tamás – KISZ titkár,
Orbán Viktor – KISZ titkár
You were saying about these ex commies.
@ Viking
Just read you posting – thanks
The more I read your postings and Vandorlo’s along with Eva Balogh’s blogs (Vandorlo suggested I read them. She is “one of us Canadians” – she spent time in Canada and got her undegrad degree here) the more I realize my confusion about Hungarian politics cannot be that unusual.
@Vándorló
You and Viking are talking about two different things. I said that Viking’s statement that “These Fidesz-Communists are of course excused by Vona and his friends. They are regarded as Good Persons, just because they are with Fidesz and not MSZP.” Is a lie and it is a lie. Vona and his friends do not excuse MSZP, SZDSZ, MDF, FIDESZ or any other Communists.
I am not a FIDESZ supporter but if there were no Jobbik, I would hold my nose and vote for FIDESZ as opposed to the hard-line Communists in MSZP and SZDSZ. Fortunately, I do not have to make that choice but in Hungary, there is always a chance that some candidate is dirty. I hope that when Jobbik discovers a dirty candidate, they get rid of the dirt.
For your information, I have no use for any of those people you listed. Some of them I despise more than I despise others but I am careful not to get too judgmental about Csurka because luckily, I was never at the mercy of Communists and I do not know what kind of torture and threats take to break down someone. I had a very good life. I would be a lot more judgmental of the slime that forced these people sign these agent agreements in Kadar’s torture chambers. However, I believe that Csurka is getting senile and his outbursts against Jobbik are inexcusable for someone who was an agent. He should retire from politics.
Csurka with his MIEP was in election alliance “3rd Way” with Jobbik in the 2006 General and Local Elections.
Did Jobbik make Election Alliances with persons that Jobbik regarded as *not* “Good Persons”?
Maybe Csurka is correct in his claims that Jobbik is only in it for the money, because that is his evaluation after Jobbik wanted to take control over the money the 38 MHUF the Hungarian State paid out after the result in the General Election 2006.
Jobbik on State money – well everyone can be bought obviously.
feckin eejits the lot of yee!
A female acquaintance of mine had
an alarming experience recently.
All of her own making I might add.
She has a tendency to take in stray-
feral cats from the pusztas.
The latest moggy was a demon.
She took it to the vet to have it
vaccinated because it was showing
signs of rabies-induced behavior.
Foaming at the mouth and screeching
in a banshee-type manner etc.
It decided to run amok in the vets
surgery and as my friend reached out
to try and calm it down it bit right
through her hand and deposited some
of the filthy disease into her bloodstream
for good measure.
She was rushed to hospital and now has
her arm in a sling and a whopping bill
for medical expenses.
This throws a different light on that
old saying: Don’t bite the hand that
feeds you!