As expected, last weekend the struggling Hungarian Democratic Forum (MDF) nominated Lajos Bokros as its candidate for prime minister in the next general elections. Apparently the party figures that having the famously/infamously strict former finance minister as its public face – and thus being seen as the most fiscally responsible of the various alternatives – is its best chance of clearing the 5% vote hurdle needed to stay in parliament. This is why it is weird to hear that a few weeks back Bokros went out of his to say that current PM Gordon Bajnai did a good job saving Hungary from bankruptcy, and that the Socialist-engineered 2010 budget is sound, having been signed off on by the IMF and the EU.
To the extent that Bokros has been slamming anyone, it has been the MDF’s supposed peers on the center-right. He recently criticized an open letter that had been signed by 29 Fidesz-affiliated economists which pointed to faults in the budget.
Of course, Bokros may be both correct and telling the truth in lauding Bajnai’s efforts at fiscal consolidation. But if he’s going to do that, rather than lashing out at the congenital fiscal irresponsibility of both Fidesz and the MSZP, he shouldn’t even bother trying to keep the MDF alive as a third force.
Personally, I find it refreshing to see someone guided more by principles rather than party loyalty.
And there are very few politicians that have both a clear and articulated set of ideas and are not distracted by petty party politics.
For me the MDF with Bokros and Debreczeni József look like a decent alternative. Obviously though, this is not how the majority of the electorate think.
Also, Bokros is the one individual from any party that I have ever seen using public transport. A small thing perhaps, but I believe if more of them were subjected to the services they expect average Hungarians to put up with there would be more impetus for rapid improvement.
Actually I take that back about Debreczeni József, just been reading about his past.
So few decent people in Hungarian politics.
You may like him or you may not, but at least the man is honest..
and probably that is why MDF will struggle to get 5% of the votes. I really hope they make it into parliament…
@Robi: Truth is I do like what Debreczeni writes and says. He talks articulately and makes sense and is fairly detached and objective in his approach to subjects, as you’d expect from his background.
The thing that I was equivocating about was the business about D-072, but looking further into it, it is clear that this could not have been Debreczeni.
Given that I take back my reservations about him completely.
We all have to accept that we have a bunch of amateurs in government at the moment. Bajnai is just a glove puppet and is firmly under the wing of the EU and its directive to institute the current austerity messages.
Bajnai looks like a lost soul wandering and wondering: “What’s it all about, Alfie?”
Bokros reminds me of Groucho Marx.
Bokros should retire gracefully. Perhaps act in an advisory capacity to the floundering duffers that think they know anything about the free market, economics, and taxation etc.
The pathetic performance and corrupt practices of politicians on both sides has been fully exposed on these sites over the last twelve months. And rightly so.
Merry Xmas, everybody!
To the extent that Bokros has been slamming anyone, it has been the MDF’s supposed peers on the center-right
(from the article)
—-
Well, Fidesz is mostly a populist party and just to its own advertising a “center-right” party.
Only a Fidesz-sympathiser, or a political imbecile (is there a difference?), would regard MDF and Fidesz peers on the “center-right” stage.
Bokros may remind some people of Groucho Marx how he looks, but the rest of the ‘Hungarian Politicians’ behave like Groucho Marx.
I’ll probably put my money on the guy that just looks like Groucho.
@Viking: Key word in that sentence is “supposed”.
But from what I can tell, until Bokros showed up,
the MDF hasn’t really been significantly less
populist than Fidesz, at least when it really came
down to tough choice.
Either way, the post is not meant to suggest that
BL isn’t honest. It’s just that there’s not much
point in running for office if you are a) in a
marginal position electorally to begin with, and
b) you go out of your way to make it look like you
aren’t offering anything special. In other words,
either he really is running to win (i.e. get into
parliament), in which case this is bad politics,
or he’s running to make an impression, in which
case he should have never said that Bajnai saved
the country, but that anyone but a fool would have
done what Bajnai did, and there is way more reform
work that needs to be done that neither Bajnai nor
anyone else is willing to discuss.
@Erik: But we all know that the person Bokros is praising, Bajnai, will not be there.
Rather, Mesterházy (aka Gyurcsány’s stooge and Lenvai’s ‘politics-is-all-image-not-substance-the-face-fits’ pick) will be.
In which light Bokros is a clear alternative. And since he took the trouble to give a fairly detailed three page outline of his policies in Élet és Irodalom back at the height of the crisis, we actually know what he believes are priorities.
Can you find me anyone else in any other party that has so clearly articulated their economic views/plans?
Vándorló. There is very little in writing to inform us what either the MSZP or Fidesz have in mind in for us in the coming years. As you say, Bokros does have some sort of plan.
The austerity measures we have in place at the moment are courtesy of the EU.
We often indulge in character assassinations because there is simply not enough information (it doesn’t exist)on what politicians and their respective parties intend to do, once given the reins or, steering wheel/kormany?
Why Bokros praises Bajnai I just don’t know.
I don’t feel that optimistic about our chances with Orban and Fidesz at the helm either.
Massive change has to be brought about with the correct reforms on a given timescale.
Hungary needs change. And it needs it now!
Bokros should offer his help in the same way Farkas Laszlo does on this forum.
Former Finance minister Bokros challenges Far Right leader Vona to open debate http://bit.ly/6eu8qp
As Bobs… would say (and my old cricket teacher, both quinquagenarians I’m sure): “Well in that man”.
V. Why should Bokros bother with Vona Gabor?
I believe he should confront Orban Viktor on his policies (if he has any?) and perhaps we will have greater insight into what to expect from the next
miniszterelnök and his party.
Hungarians go to the polls and vote for Fidesz because the MSZP are a washout? Some choice!
Communist bureaucracy accompanied with the never-ending corruption sagas..same old story I’m afraid.
Will things change? Not bloody likely!
England salvaged a draw against the South Africans.
Last man in…and all that. Can’t remember the quote.
I’m freezing anyway. Can’t afford to turn on the gas. Too expensive. Those Russian bears charge far too much. We should look for alternative energy supplies. mmmm
Vona Gábor válasza Bokros Lajosnak
(…)
A vita időpontjául a kampánynak azon időszakát javaslom, amikor már kiderült, mely pártok tudták összegyűjteni az országos listaállításhoz szükséges ajánlószelvényeket anélkül, hogy csaláshoz folyamodtak volna, mint az sajnos az MDF-fel egy éve a ferencvárosi időközi választáson előfordult.
(…)
http://barikad.hu/node/43240
@Csendes: Unfortunately Orbán knows he always comes out worse in debates. He struggles reading his prole prose from notes at the best of times, so he does everything he can to avoid one-to-one comparisons. Also, even within his own party, he is known to be hopeless with facts and figures. Going up against Bokros would make a mockery of him – he just wouldn’t do it. More than that you have to remember that it was the 2002 elections that Fidesz were running with MDF. After the election (which they obviously lost) a large fraction of the MDF members split off for which they were fined a bucket load. In 2006 Dávid Ibolya refused to run with Fidesz for which Orbán is likely to seek revenge one way or another – he is a really bad loser, despite all the practice he’s had.
Still, MDF and Fidesz do at least have a past, so I’m not sure where they stand as far as confronting each other goes. Obviously Bokros has spoken out against the ‘economists’ open letter to MSZP that Fidesz initiated, but actually picking a confrontation?
Maybe he’s just concentrating on the absolute nonsense for now.
@Mark: So he is unwilling to meet and unable to support and argue for his own ‘policies’. No suprises there then.
Vona:
“A választási esélyeket tekintve természetesen valódi ellenfeleimnek a Fidesz és az MSZP miniszterelnök-jelöltjeit tartom, de mivel mindig is a nyílt és korrekt vita híve voltam, így nagyon remélem, hogy mind önnel, mind Orbán Viktorral, mind Mesterházy Attilával lesz módom arra, hogy hazánk és nemzetünk ügyeit a nyilvánosság előtt megvitassuk.”
I can understand why Vona does not consider Bokros a worthy opponent for a one-on-one debate with the former member of pufajkas Horn government.
MDF may not even have enough votes to stay in the Parliament while Jobbik is preparing for the role of biggest opposition force, second only to Fidesz until 2014. There may not even be an MDF in 2014. Why waste time on a loser?
@Mark: Funny Jobbik’s love opinion poll data and use it widely as long as it isn’t to do with themselves, at which point they claim it’s all made up, biased and irrelevant.
Anyway, outside of party allegiance Bokros (around 16% of electorate) is the second most popular candidate for PM after Orbán (38%). In that light he is worth debating.
The truth is Jobbik and Vona don’t have policies and the last thing he can take is someone highlighting that even more than is already apparent.
It’s not a great start when Vona back’s away from an open discussion. His response is a cliched regurgitation of HirTV talk. There was barely a single intelligible sentence.
He should have taken more time, thought about it and then responded.
Outside of any of that it is a shame for his party because they rely on his calm and cool handling of the difficult questioning he always gets. This backing off and away from open questioning is a first for him as far as I know.
People are bound to ask why.
He was asked to spend only an hour and a half of his time, at a time of his choosing.
He is obviously made uncomfortable by the Bokros highlighting that the would be emperor has no clothes.
Once the populist rhetoric of any particular party is dispensed with we/you can get down to the brass tacks of debating/discussing what meat is left on the bones of a party manifesto (a document of intent)..if indeed one exists.
Simply issuing statements and slamming the opposition and promising change (if elected) is not enough from the usual suspects.
Jobbik have a niche market, don’t they? About ten per cent of the vote. Similar right wing parties exist in a lot of countries but do not get the same pounding as our good friends Jobbik and the Magyar Garda.
There is insufficient evidence that any party is going to make a jot of difference to what already exists here- corruption, communist-style bureaucracy, and inefficient politicians.
Elections coming early next year. If you did a poll and asked what the MSZP and Fidesz stood for and what was in their election manifesto I guarantee 99% of the people surveyed would not have a clue. I don’t!
Evenin’ All…
@ DeedPoll
Thank you so much – you made my day.
“If you did a poll and asked what the MSZP and Fidesz stood for and what was in their election manifesto I guarantee 99% of the people surveyed would not have a clue”
It’s not just me and my vast number of friends living in BP (3 in total) who have no idea what MSZP and FIDESZ stand for.
If the other political parties agendas were clear, JOBBIK wouod not be getting the “air-time” around here. I give them an “A+” for making it clear they are a bunch of lunatics led by white trashand represented by outlawed thugs. (Now that the MGis illegal, I am looking forward to their new name and look based on the Hungarian Ambiance website – white horses and red soldier outfits circa 200 years ago.)
@ Mark – I remember you posted the phrase “smut is smut”? – Have your read the classy Krisztina’s message to Jewish men about the size of their “dicks”? Where I come from,( and where you live ) politicians don’t talk like that. White trash are the words that come to mind.
BTW, how do you feel about a woman saying anti-Semitic remarks and crude phrases whose children are half Jewish?
Step back and think how you would feel if you were her child. Hope those kids are seeing a good therapist.
Jobbik’s EP program is 56 pages long and anyone can download it:
http://jobbik.hu/program
Anyone who is not able to read and understand it should refrain from criticizing Jobbik’s program because that would be very foolish to criticize something one knows nothing about.
We should be able to access Jobbik’s program for Hungary in a few days. When it comes on line, I will post the link for it.
I do not agree that Jobbik is right wing. Jobbik is the right party for Hungary after 65 years of Communist rule. The current MSZP/SZDSZ coalition is not Socialist but Communist. These very rich Communists managed to turn the blood of Hungarians on their hands into billions. They are as extreme as one can imagine. Compared to them, everyone is moderate.
I am sure that Jobbik’s program will address all areas of Hungarian life and have a program promoting the best interests of Hungarians but I would be happy with Jobbik if they had nothing other than their determination to protect the Hungarian farmland for Hungarians. No nation can sustain its national identity without ownership of their farmland. If Jobbik does nothing else, I will not complain but there will be a lot more to benefit the Hungarians.
@Mark: Both You, Bobs… and others have all admitted in the past that this does not contain any details. For that Jobbik have promised a document that will be released on January the 16th.
The document you refer to makes 3 main point:
1. Hungarian history is fundamentally that of the struggle between the classes.
2. In Hungary’s capitalist society, an economic elite minority dominate and exploit the working class majority.
3. In order to overcome the fetters of private property the under class must seize political power through a social revolution and expropriate the elite capitalist classes and place the productive capacities of society into collective ownership.
All sounds very familiar doesn’t it?
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism
I never said what you attribute to me and the program does not say what you say it does.
Why must you be so dishonest?
@ Mark
I believe this is true.
“These very rich Communists managed to turn the blood of Hungarians on their hands into billions.
Any idea why no legal action is pending to take properties and “billions” away from people who amassed their fortune illegally?
Is it possible the State has no benefit thus they don’t bother? (When all is said and done, the properties would not go back to the State but to the individual rightful owners. As Viking pointed out, some of them are Jews who had their properties nationalized by the Communists. You don’t really want that, do you?
Re JOBBIK agenda: Protecting farmland for Hungarians sounds good – As my grandmother used to say (excuse spelling) “A vak tyuk is talal szemet”
I am looking forward to my question to you about Krisztina Morvai. (Love her pearls. I want a strand exactly like hers for Christmas. Hope the foul mouth doesn’t come with it)
@Mark: I would debate much of tis document with you and have tried with Pávaszem and others in the past, but all I get is empty rhetoric back.
You, on the other hand, show know signs of actually understanding the stuff you cut and paste.
Let me restate the three tenets of Marxism in another way, as I did here on June 30th this year:
Jobbik’s unwritten, but often stated, manifesto is basically the 3 tenets of Marxism.
1. The conflict for the control of the means of productions (dialectical and materialist)
2. Anti-capitalism and the redistribution of wealth
3. The need for a ‘revolution’ to re-istablish the alienated works as the inheritors of their wealth.
Or as I stated to Pávaszem on October 16th quoting from this ‘program’:
This is not a program: “Fontos összefüggés még, hogy a pénz- és profitközpontú szemlélettel szervesen együtt jár annak elkerülhetetlen „fátumkénti” kezelése, hogy a kapitalizmusban a gazdaság vezérelve a minél nagyobb profit realizálása, amelyet a költségek leszorításával lehet elérni. Ebből következően le kell nyomni a munkabéreket, minimalizálni kell a munkavállalókra, illetve általában az emberekre fordítandó költségeket… (pro)aktív szerepet kell betöltenie az emberközpontú gazdaság és társadalom kialakításában, amely szerepbe beletartozik a munkavállalók és a fogyasztók tömegeinek a nemzetközi tőke irányában kialakuló kiszolgáltatottsággal szembeni védelme.”
That is just the second tenet of Marxism reworded.
@Vándorló
You just keep dancing around. Here it is again:
“I never said what you attribute to me and the program does not say what you say it does.
Why must you be so dishonest?”
It should be easy to give us links to support your statements or back off but instead, you dig yourself into a bigger hole.
In America, the government controls business practices and many other things to protect the people. There is a constant debate on how much control is healthy and when do these controls do more harm than good. Some people, very few people who call these people oriented measures Socialist or Communist but these people are ignorant. Hungarians know what the Communists are, they torture and murder people, and abuse the workers worse than the Capitalists did. That is why I despise Communists but western style social welfare is not Communism. Try to show some integrity and stop making claims you must know are not true.