Jobbik to appeal to Sólyom over PM's "prejudiced" remark about party

For god or bad, it is customary that existing Parliamentarian Parties get preferential treatment when it comes to State-controlled TV-time etc.
On whom the PM, which is a political post, chooses to speak with and about what, is strictly up the the PM and the people who elected him, the single majority of the MPs.
The President of the Hungarian State has hardly anything to say about this formally, but he can of course have an opinion, which the Parliament does not need to care about, if they so chooses.
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"was put into his current post by a politically and morally illegitimate parliamentary majority," Balczó said"
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So, Jobbik want to make the PM directly elected by the voters?
Or how is "politically ... illegitimate parliamentary majority" suppose to be interpreted?
There is no difference in any way how all PMs have been elected since 1990, so the current PM is, from a 'political' point of view as valid as the others.
That his opponents do not like him is another thing, but that does not make him 'illegal'.

Bajnai the “libatolvaj” does not consider Jobbik “a democratic force”.
Here is a man, a criminal who robbed many Hungarians, forcing many of them into total desperation and suicide while lining his pockets with the money he stole from the people who trusted him.
How does this man, if one can call someone as depraved as the “libatolvaj” man, the puppet of Communist MSZ(M)P responsible for the murder of hundreds of thousands and terrorizing millions dares to speak of democratic force? What does he know besides stealing and lying?

@Mark: It's often stated, repeatedly, that 7-9 people directly committed suicide as a result of Bajnai. I have never actually been able to find any direct source to support these statements. And I have looked for them repeatedly.
As you also repeat these claims, can you provide any direct sources.
I am genuinely interested and would just like to establish the facts. Given the strength of feeling that this arouses, I think it's only fair to talk from a position of fact rather than hearsay.
Any links, sources, resources would be appreciated.

Look for articles in Magyar Hirlap. I also saw such reports on HirTV.

@Mark: I've obviously looked at both of those, but while HírTV is happy to repeat these statements, they have never provided a single reference or report to any facts. MH, similarly.
What I am looking for is the initial facts, not simple stories repeating the claims.

@Vandorlo: I hope you are not trying to pull a viking on me. I answered the best I could. If you need more information, you will need to do the work yourself. Magyar Hirlap and Magyar Nemzet had numerous reports on it, HirTV had it share of programs talking to people Bajnai the libatolvaj destroyed, and showing the company, he used to siphon out the money and leaving these people bankrupt. I do not have anything more than that but it should be enough because if the charges were not true, Bajnai the libatolvaj would have sued. He did not.

@ Vandorlo

Regardless of personal opinions about JOBBIK, does the PM have the legal right to withhold information from the party if he "does not consider to be a democratic force."?

I am asking because I am interested in the discretionary power of the PM

Can the President over rule the PM's decision(s)

thanks

@Olga: Obviously this situation is ridiculous. This information shouldn't be withheld from anyone. let alone Jobbik or any other party.
Whether in the long term Jobbik will be a democratic force or not is yet to be seen, but it is a democratically elected party with a mandate from the Hungarian people. It's not for the PM or anyone else to argue with the mandate of the people. And it is true that Jobbik are the one party that has yet to be found trying to stuff ballot boxes or subvert elections.
Their policies, intimidation and hate speech are one thing, but they are a political voice.
The Hungarian Data Protection Act and Freedom of information act is all rolled into one. This makes it clear that the affairs of state cannot legally be withheld from Jobbik.
I can see the problem of appealing to Solyom too. He has made it pretty clear over the years that he is a Fidesz puppet and has already spoken in the same terms as Bajnai. While he talks about caring for the constitution he clearly mocks it with his actions.
I think it's time Jobbik start to educate their people about the pester power of the pen. Stop the silly uniforms and marches, stop being led like sheep and start using the law as it exists to open up government and making people follow the letter of the law as much as the spirit - both lacking in Hungarian political life.
You can find some things in English here: http://abiweb.obh.hu/dpc/

@Olga: Bajnai may claim an exception on the gorunds of
Act LXIII of 1992 on the Protection of Personal Data and Public Access to Data of Public Interest,
Chapter III PUBLIC ACCESS TO DATA OF PUBLIC INTEREST, Article 19, exception d, namely:
"(3) The organs mentioned in paragraph (1) shall grant access for anyone to the data of public interest processed by them, except for those data which are classified as state or service secret by organs authorized to do so under an Act, or for data classified on grounds of an obligation resulting from an international agreement, or furthermore except, if the right to public access to specified categories of data of public interest is not restricted by an Act in the interest of

a) national defence,
b) national security,
c) criminal investigation and crime prevention,
d) financial or foreign exchange policy of the State,
e) international relations and relations to international organisations,
f) judicial and administrative authoritative proceedings."
http://abiweb.obh.hu/dpc/index.php?menu=gyoker/relevant/national/1992_LXIII

I would be surprised if anyone could make that stick.
In the long term, these people are just making this place harder for themselves. They have been so use to distorting the system themselves that they will do anything to hide information that should be in the public interest.
Jobbik announced on Monday that they have completed their election program that they will release on the 16th.

@ Mark;

Although I had heard of the suicides and Banjai involvement (Goose Industry), it's all still a bit vague...what exactly happened? How is Banjai involved? His involvement, was it legal or a conflict of interest in anyway? Is there any future means possible to hold him, even impart, accountable?

Z

@ Vandorlo

Thanks - that's what I thought as far as being "open" is concerned. Especially given past corruption. It would be interesting what FIDESZ
will do about "open records" - I gather the FIDESZ victory is a given.

The one thing positive I can say for JOBBIK is that at least it has enthusiastic followers. Pathetic but true

I haven't seen any enthusiasm for any other party although I am only reading English websites. I am convinced if there was a really good mainstream party that was not tainted by crooks or former Communists, ( Csirkefogok as my Dad said) Hungarians who want nothing to do with JOBBIK would not be so apathetic.

I would love to know what kind of Hungary the victims of 1956 would have envisioned for 2010
I don't think a party full of hate nor parties that rob the taxpayers blind are what they had in mind

I am a big fan of Eva Balogh - this is the first
paragraph of a long article from Hungarian Spectrum dated January 4, 2010 so I am not exactly signing up for my JOBBIK membership yet.

"Jobbik's party program is not yet public but we have already some ideas of what it will include because Gábor Vona, the party's leader, gave a fairly lengthy interview to the Internet paper Barikád (www.barikad.hu). Barikád is a virulently anti-Semitic, anti-Roma publication that can be considered the official mouthpiece of Jobbik."

@justasking
I am not able to provide you with any more information than I already did. To me it is criminal what Bajnai did but it may not be illegal. Perhaps that is why he can be called all these things in the media and not being able to sue because the accusations are true but still not in violation of current criminal code. Jobbik promised to go back to the beginning of “gengszterváltás” and review these cases. Vona mentioned it in his recent interview but first they have to win the election.

@ Vandorlo

hard to believe I am defending JOBBIK rights.

I read the legislation - sounds like our FIPPA Act (Freedom of Information and Privacy Act)

"which he does not consider to be a democratic force." is irrelevant. Who is he to decide which party is democratic?

I am honestly beginning to understand why so many "average Hungarians" are apathetic. It must be self
preservation to avoid ulcer attacks

@ Mark;

You miss understand me...what exactly happened? How was Banjai involved in all of this?

@justasking
It has been a while since I last read or heard about it but I will give it a shot. Bajnai made contracts with many people for goose (liba) to market. He took delivery of many thousands and thousands of geese from these people and failed to pay them. Instead, he transferred the money from the company he set up to pay these people to his offshore company until he bankrupted the local company. Many people lost everything, some committed suicide while he got billions. I believe that a marketing scheme in America is illegal and if he pulled the same thing in America, he would be sent to prison for a long time. Maybe you can understand the outrage of most Hungarians every time this criminal opens his mouth. As bad as his crime is, the Communist MSZP is even worse to make this man, if you can call him a man, the PM of Hungary.
It will not hurt my feelings if anyone can provide a better description of these events.

@ Mark;

What can I say? Of course I can understand Hungarians outrage, why would'nt I?

I can not accept that absolutely nothing can be done, that he can't be held accountable on some level. Since the company you said went bankrupt, could he not be personally sued?

Security around him must be pretty thick.

@justasking
It is much that is hard to understand under the government that should soon dumped on the garbage heap of failed and corrupt political parties. Recently, a small town mayor requested that the police assign someone to the bus the locals take to work and school because the gypsy children became so abusive that it is a horrifying experience for all the passengers. The police rejected the request claiming shortage of manpower. The same police leadership would assign hundreds of fully equipped police, trucks and aerial surveillance to a peaceful gathering of Magyar Garda on private property. Just a few more months of this madness…

@ Mark

How did we get to gypsy children?

What about Bajnai? People can't steal millions without a paper trail. That's why Madoff and our very own very blue-blood Canadian, "Lord Conrad Black" are sitting in jail where they belong. (Black is the guest of the USA at the moment.)

So is there evidence why has he not been charged?

There is EVIDENCE - right? I hope the evidence is stronger than the evidence Molnar offered regarding the Roma women

Olga,

"There is EVIDENCE - right?"

If there is you are unlikely to get from Mark, as he wrote earlier in the thread to Van:
" If you need more information, you will need to do the work yourself"

This has been a regular response from Mark, Bobs and Ricsi when their beliefs are challenged. I have found it frustrating waiting for cogent replies to questions I have posted to them. However "Nationalist" posters who are prepared to argue their case include Pavaszem, Justasking and Law.

My interpretation of MBsR's behaviour is that they have a particular agenda to support, and that they see it as more effective to post regularly; insinuate rather than substantiate ("some town mayor", "horrifying experience", "peaceful gathering" blah, blah, blah´); and to move on quickly to new threads. They are not interested in discovering or defending their version of the truth, just repeating it over and over again.

In conclusion, we got to gypsy children because Mark is unwilling - and one has to infer unable - to address Justasking's legitimate question "Since the company you said went bankrupt, could he not be personally sued?". I could be wrong, but I would like to know that I am.

I think we need to clear out some things here:
1) The PM is *only* responsible to the Parliament.
2) Jobbik has no representation in Parliament, so therefore Jobbik, as a legal entity, cannot ask anything more than what any private citizen can do.
3) The PM knows this and is playing with words, because he would never be *obliged* to answer a question from Vona as long as Vona is not MP.
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Bajnai and the Goose Story.
Between 2000 and 2005, Bajnai was CEO of Wallis Rt. an investment company. His duty was to restructure the company, make it more efficient and to manage its investments. Among the more than 100 Wallis-owned company a poultry processing firm, Hajdu-Bet went bankrupt during 2003. Bajnai was not with Wallis when it bought Hajdu-Bet.
In 2003, the National Association of Managers selected Bajnai as the "Young Manager of the Year". In the same year, as the head of Wallis, he concluded the liquidation of Hajdu-Bet, during which a great number of suppliers breeding geese suffered great losses.
This is the background, Bajnai got criticism for being too hard, but the question is if he did anything different from what GM will do with SAAB?
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Mark 'reversed proof' ("I called him a thief and he did not sue me") is not the same thing as Bajnai has admitted he was a thief.
In Europe it is allowed to call a 'public figure' a thief. That public figure would never win a libel case, then he is just 'public'.
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Just try to keep to the facts, it makes life easier.

@Viking;

I don't understand why you mentioned that Bajnai was not around when Wallis Rt bought the poultry company. Is it not more important that he was around when it went bankrupt? Is this how he helps make Wallis more efficient?

From my understanding, when companies are liquidated, outstanding debts are paid from what is left over. So when he liquidated said company...did he attempt to pay of the companies out standing debts? Also, what happened to all the Geese? And exactly or roughly how much money are we talking about here that these farmers lost. Thousands? Millions? Billions?

@ Sophist;

I actually consider myself more "patriotic" as opposed to "Nationalist", both to Hungary and Canada.

No Balls Mark does not rely on facts. He lies, and will try to pass off his comments as facts. If challenged, NB will avoid providing any evidence and change the topic, even if his statements stands to gain a Hungarian charity $10000 if true. NB is an appropriate moniker for such a liar.
@Justasking - Holding companies do not necessarily run the companies they own. The extent to which they get involved in these companies depends on their importance, and state the companies are in. Even when liquidating a company in distress, suppliers are often the last people to get paid (employees, banks come ahead in priority).
As to holding Bajnai responsible, I think the directors of the banktrupt firm have more accountability and liability than the holding company. In the event of that the liquidation was due to poor management or strategy, then I'm not even sure that they are legally (or personally) liable.
Bearing in mind cultural differences, we are very wary of people calling themselves 'patriots'. Patriots are normally identified by others who recognise the deeds and actions of individuals who distinguished or sacrificed themselves for the nation. People who blow their trumpets and thump their chests (breasts) usually come across to others as nationalists.

@Viking: Thanks for taking to summarise the background. And I agree sticking to the facts is the aim. That is why I directed my question at where everyone gets this often repeated statements that 'nine people were ruined and committed suicide as a result of Hajdú-Bét not honoring its debts (to them)' ("kilenc ember ment tönkre és lett öngyilkos azért, mert a Hajdú-Bét nem fizette ki tartozását nekik" http://index.hu/belfold/baj627p/ )
I tried to find where this 'nine people' figure comes from and have had no luck. When Bajnai was appointed PM I was surprised Jobbik and Fidesz didn't hold a widows wake to try to milk these people's misery for their own gain. Rather, they kept their distance and refer to these figures obliquely.
Anyway, I would just like to know how well founded this is.

On the other issue of Jobbik not having MP's yet, I take your point, but that notwithstanding it's not particularly clever or diplomatic for the PM to be deliberately deciding which people get which information. Information which should be in the public domain anyway.
Given MSZP's ratings what on earth do they hope to gain when there is, by all accounts, 25% of the population sympatheic to jobbik policies.

I don't understand why you mentioned that Bajnai was not around when Wallis Rt bought the poultry company. Is it not more important that he was around when it went bankrupt? Is this how he helps make Wallis more efficient?
justasking at January 5, 2010 10:03 PM
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Part of Mark's accusations is that the whole Poultry Company was a big scam from day one. Maybe it was, but it is important when discussing who was doing what, that the Poultry Company was not bought/set-up on Bajnai's watch.
He was severely criticized for closing down the Company too fast. Legally I would assume everything was OK in the sense of an OK bankruptcy (companies goes bust sometimes and the whole idea is that they should be allow to do that).
In Wallis RT's book-keeping a loss of 10 billion HUF/40 million EUR. It was the part that took Wallis RT down financially those years around 2003.
The Hungarian Poultry market collapsed and many farmers had done investments that never could be recovered, so it was a hard time for them.
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Facts is one thing, the political and moral evaluation another thing.
One can say that Wallis RT that had Graboplast and other big companies should have taken money from those businesses and given money to the farmers, but idealism is one thing, Accounting Laws and Legal Responsibility is another.
The Tax Office would not be so happy if money was moved between different companies - ask me I have several Hungarian companies and the Tax O just hate me if I move money between them.

not particularly clever or diplomatic for the PM to be deliberately deciding which people get which information. Information which should be in the public domain anyway.
Given MSZP's ratings what on earth do they hope to gain when there is, by all accounts, 25% of the population sympatheic to jobbik policies.
Vándorló at January 5, 2010 11:23 PM
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I think this is for 'Internal Use Only!'.
It is a message to the MSZP-Left = "We will stand firm against the Fascists!".
One thing is that Bajnai is not up for re-election (or even election) so he can pretty say and do what he wants and if needed Meszterhazy will 'explain' (probably not 'correct' Bajnai).
I think MSZP is trying to consolidate its base, especially the 'Left Wing', before it has disappeared totally.
The worst that could have to MSZP would be a credible challenge from 'the Left'.
MSZP's election machine has pulled good the last 2 General Elections.
Fidesz has probably the hardest position at the moment, they can basically just loose now (in % to Jobbik and MDF).
Jobbik on the other hand will be judged much harder this election, so their program will be important and scrutinized.
If MSZP succeeds to arouse its voter-base on the election day they can do better than expected, which would be hard for Fidesz.
I think we will see more of this from MSZP, in a way of defining MSZP as anti-Jobbik (which is nothing new), but by that forcing Fidesz to take a more open anti-Jobbik stand, or open for attacks from MSZP.

@ Sophist

I suspected there was no evidence but wasn't sure.
Had to ask.

Just like there is no evidence about the Roma women. Ditto about Israeli children learning Hungarian and Israel wanting to devour Hungary.

Of course, there is no evidence that JOBBIK leaders are connected to Mossad - no matter how crazy the allegation, there is always something more bizarre around the corner. Comforting.

You mentioned you understood Law's postings - obviously your command of the English language is much better than mine. It helped when he posted
the giant conspiracy about H1N1 vaccines - kind of made future postings easier.

Pavaszem is different - never have problems understanding him.

@ Viking - thanks for the crash course in Hungarian businesses. If I understood you correctly Bajnai no more committed a crime than the GM Executives in the USA. Different reasons for bankruptcy but "crime" was not the cause.

Kind of ironic for the Goose story to turn into "Mother Goose"

@ Curious George

I always defined Patriotism the same as you.
"Patriots are normally identified by others who recognise the deeds and actions of individuals who distinguished or sacrificed themselves for the nation." - personally, people who ran to the border for a better life (like my parents) as opposed to leaving for fear for lives don't seem overly Patriotic to me.

On the other hand, it may be a subjective word and if one thinks s/he is a Patriot it's not for me to judge

@ Olga;

Where exactly did you read "no evidence"? I heard people commenting on what COULD have happened and what MAY have happened, in their opinion. Vandor stated that he could not find any evidence, this does not mean that there is NO evidence. So, Mark stating that Banjai, whether directly/indirectly being involved, may infact be true. So that leaves me with your Mother Goose comment, is that now you?

@ Mark;

I found your reference to my chest (breasts) inappropriate. Fortunately, you did open the door though. Definition of Patriotic: Feeling, expressing or inspired by love for one's country,(or in my case countries), Answer.com. Yup, that would be me, bearing in mind cultural differences of course. People that usually talk out of their asses, come across to others as morons.

@Olga;

One more thing, I said I consider my self "patriotic" not a patriot. Do your parents know that you think so little of them?

@ Mark;

I'm sorry, sorry, sorry! That post that I wrote with your name in it, was actually meant for Boy George

NO one, and I mean no one, has ever made the names of these suicides which are allegedly linked to the Goose Story.
No families nothing.
Probably some one made an estimate among the suicide for those areas in Hungary and built a political claim on that.
How many suicide notes claiming "I kill myself due to the Goose Problem!" has been shown?
No, it is most likely the same old victimisation/politic stunt, that I call the 'Mouse-tactic'. It has typically been the hall-mark of the political right of right. We know all who are included in this group.
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This political group normally use Christian Values (with a very capital V) to define their 'moral'. Traditional Christianity, like Judaism and I think even Islam (bit unsure there), is very outspoken about Suicide. It is just forbidden. Traditionally people who committed suicide were not allowed to be buried inside the Christian grave-yard (Holy Ground).
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For me, this must be a ideological problem for 'True Christians' to use these people who violated God's Will so much that they did the ultimate thing and took their own life. "Weak people, whose bodies we even do not want to touch and wose souls will burn in the Eternal fire" in one sense and a political argument to win sympathy for your cause (normally anti-capitalism).
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These guys are complexed individuals who must fight a lot of daemons every day with their inconsistent thinking.

@justasking
“@ Mark;
I found your reference to my chest (breasts) inappropriate. Fortunately, “

I do not know what you are talking about. I do not like to use sexual innuendos or make references such as the one you attribute to me. Please explain.

@Vandorlo
“When Bajnai was appointed PM I was surprised Jobbik and Fidesz didn't hold a widows wake to try to milk these people's misery for their own gain. Rather, they kept their distance and refer to these figures obliquely.”

This is not correct. I have seen some people on HirTV talking about what Bajnai has done to them. There was also plenty of press coverage. The only question is why Bajnai is PM instead of being in prison for his crimes. I do not have the answer to that but I suspect that it must be the many loopholes in Hungarian laws. I much prefer the American legal system to the legal system of any other country and I am not able to explain why some things happen in Hungary as they do. I do not like many court decisions because I do not rust the judges who I suspect have strong ties to the Communists. Hungary needs radical change. That is why I support Jobbik.

Regarding the pretense questions and challenges of trolls such as Viking and some others, I have no interest in wasting time on them because they are without any integrity and twist everything you tell them. Even in a debate with those one completely disagrees with there has to be some rules that these do not understand. I spend too much time arguing even while limiting my responses only to those I consider “honorable opponents”. I have no time for trolls.

I have seen some people on HirTV talking about what Bajnai has done to them
Mark at January 6, 2010 8:07 AM
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Of course.
If I was interviewed I would tell what Bajnai has not done for me.
In a bankruptcy there is a legal valid priority list:
1) First comes the State with all Taxes, etc
2) Employees salaries
3) The rest
Suppliers, which we are speaking about here, are among "The rest".
The reason why a company goes bust is lack of funds (50% of capital), so where are these funds suppose to be taken from?
The process of finding resources to pay "The rest" is called Accord, it means that you take all resources (buildings etc) and try to make that into cash, to be able to give some 'cents on the dollar'.
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I have myself in 2 times ended up with my Customer went bust (or for other reason refused to pay me).
One case, a Swedish company, I forced the new owner, who were not obliged to do that, to pay my old Customer's debt to me, otherwise I would not work with them.
In the other case it was more trickier with a Czech company but I got them to pay in the end.
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One can of course always argue, from a moral point, that not being able to pay your suppliers (if you were able to pay the earlier 2 groups) would be immoral, but it is, for good or worse, the norm.
And we got this behaviour from Mark's Good Ol' US, so it is crocodile tears from Mark, as usual.
Blaming Hungary to be too much like his own country is a bit revealing (of laughter), but that is how their 'logic' works

Justasking,

"I actually consider myself more "patriotic" as opposed to "Nationalist", both to Hungary and Canada."

Well, that's what the quotation marks were for. I probably did more damage to Pavaszem's position than yours, but I don't want to use "right-wing".

Here's a "test" question: do you think that people who support the MSZP are unpatriotic?

There are some people - my wife for example - who regard themselves as both patriotic and MSZP supporters, and get really angry when their party preference is treated as treachery. One of the things that is unusual about Hungarian politics for a Brit like me is this kind of polarity.

@justasking
I found the author of the inappropriate comment:
“thump their chests (breasts) usually come across to others as nationalists.
Curious George at January 5, 2010 11:21 PM”

A strange but not surprising comment from someone who would put sheets over his women so that only their owners, their masters would see them. There have been cases of Hungarian girls, knowing nothing about their culture an customs, would merry to some of these who are very skilled at behaving as if they were civilized but once they got them to their own country, all hell broke lose. In some cases, the Hungarian government had to bring them home because they were kept as virtual slaves, servants or even used as prostitutes.

A strange but not surprising comment from someone who would put sheets over his women
Mark at January 6, 2010 10:44 AM
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Not to forget the Good Ol' US Mormons, who just love bigamy and forcing women to be sexual slaves to the Grand Master.
But hey, they are White Folks and they are not Jewish, so what can be wrong?

Mark wrote: "someone who would put sheets over his women so that only their owners, their masters would see them"

Could someone please explain whom/what he means by that ?

Has he gone completely over the hill now ? Does this mean we get rid of him ?

That's probably too much to hope for ...

How Many Jews Are There?
How many Jews are there in contemporary Hungary? Demographic research during the last decades focused on establishing exact numbers of losses, including Jewish losses, during World War II. Mainly for political reasons, there are no reliable records available on the Jewish component of the population in contemporary Hungary, but some data exist, though fragmentary and secondary.
According to estimates made immediately after World War II, about 190,000 people escaped the Holocaust. In Budapest, about 119,000 people survived. The number of Jews returning from German concentration camps was estimated at 116,500. From these numbers, one has to deduct the unknown number of people who emigrated right after the war, sometimes right from the German camps, to Palestine and, later on, to Israel, including an estimated 15-16,000 in the very first year. In 1949, the last census in Hungary that did ask after one's religion registered approximately 134,000 "Israelites."
The Budapest Community today registers more than 7,000 taxpayers. However, behind that particular figure are some families consisting of only an elderly couple or a widow. The Jewish Community's taxpayers and their families, the people maintaining a more or less traditional life, total about 30,000 in the capital and the provinces. The largest existing Jewish organization, the Hungarian Jewish Cultural Association, had at its beginning around 2,000 members, though this number has now decreased >

somewhat. The Lubavitch Hasidic community claims to have a list of 17,000 Jewish names and addresses. Jewish Community officials and rabbis speak of about 80,000 Jews in Hungary today. In fact, there is no way to get exact numbers since the number of Jews depends on the definition of Jewish.

Olga,

"Patriots are normally identified by others who recognise the deeds and actions of individuals who distinguished or sacrificed themselves for the nation."

I think this definition of Patriotism is problematic because it defines it in terms of "nation", so you can't separate patriotism from nationalism. Patriotism is a classical concept and so predates "nation". If I was a Hungarian in 1848, I would probably stayed loyal to the Habsburg regime, and would have seen myself as a patriot rather than a nationalist.

PS I don't claim to understand Law's version of the truth, just observe that he defends it.

At the very least, foreigners and those Hungarians who do not read, write or speak Hungarian should have the decency to leave it to Hungarians to decide who is a Hungarian patriot and who is not.
Using Bayer’s classic words of wisdom: Egy lószart, mama!

@Mark: "...foreigners and those Hungarians who do not read, write or speak Hungarian..." Fine, then can you tell your friends Ricsi and Law to button it?

How could I say anything to them? According to some of these lunatics, I am Ricsi and Law. That is fine with me as I consider them patriotic Hungarians. I would not trade them for a million of these trash-talking foreigners.

@ Sophist

Finally ! Someone (your wife) supports MSZP. Maybe I will be lucky enough to read that someone supports FIDESZ and will tell me why (rather saturated with JOBBIK supporters but at least I know why they support the party. In fact , the JOBBIK agenda seems to have the clearest agenda. I just have to be patient for a few more days to find out how the goals will be achieved )

Please tell me briefly why she favours MSZP.

Patriotism/Nationalism : Whatever. - If Law , Mark, Justasking etc consider themselves true Patriots – then Congratulations. For me, being born there, never paying a dime towards the economy , and eager to understand Hungarian politics are not enough to consider myself a patriot. End of the discussion as far as I am concerned.

About Law searching for the Truth – show me a fanatic who doesn’t search for it and finds it.

Mark,

"At the very least, foreigners and those Hungarians who do not read, write or speak Hungarian should have the decency to leave it to Hungarians to decide who is a Hungarian patriot and who is not".

Why? Patriotism is not a Hungarian concept, as far as I can tell it's a Ancient Greek one - though Bobs. could probably put me straight on that. If you want to limit discussion to Hungarian speakers, wouldn't you be more comfortable in a Hungarian language forum.

Sophist,
I see some of the biased anti-Hungarian reporting, staring with the selection of topics and hope to balance it a little. What is your purpose here?

Olga,

"Please tell me briefly why she favours MSZP."

When I met her (1993) during the time of the Fidesz/SZDSZ alliance she voted SZDSZ (party) and Gábor Fodor (local candidate) - and this is the first thing to highlight - the person is more important than the party. She became interested in the MSZP in 1998, when her High School Economics teacher became local mayor in the MSZP interest. (I enjoyed pointing out that unlike most high school teachers he had six houses). Interestingly, when Fodor fled Fidesz it damaged him in her eyes - "I don't know what he believes in anymore". The final straw with her relationship with Fidesz was in 2002, when Orbán tried to incorporate March 15 into his election campaign (hence my earlier comment about party preference and treason). Now I think she is more anti-Orbán than pro-MSZP, although she knows enough economics to understand that Bajnai has done a good job of stabilising the economy. She worries that a vote against Orbán is wasted vote, so some sort of tactical vote in process, given that our children are not "real Hungarians" Jobbik is unlikely to benefit, maybe I can lure her into the MDF camp.

Mark,

"I see some of the biased anti-Hungarian reporting, staring with the selection of topics and hope to balance it a little. What is your purpose here?"

To discuss Hungarian politcs intelligently (in English), please oblige me.

Why is the reporting "anti-Hungarian"?

Sophist,
You would have to see what is out there in the Hungarian media and what is selected to decide if the reporting is biased or not. I do not believe that you would accept my take on it so why bother. I do not believe that anything any one of us posts here is going to change our positions because we have our own convictions. You and some others will never understand Jobbik because you reject the basic idea that Hungary is for Hungarians. You or anyone else cannot stop it because they tried in the hostile, anti-Hungarian media to smear them, misrepresent them and ignore them but their support keeps on growing. Attacking them only makes them stronger because they love their country and attacks by outsider only brings them closer together. I must be wasting my time trying to explain something like this to you because in the decadent West it is an alien concept.
One reason I copy some Hungarian text here is that these topics are ignored by the list owner. The other reason is that it the satisfaction of putting some people in place who keep blabbering about who is a Hungarian and who is not in English.

@ Mark;

I did explain to you, if you would look 2 postings down from the one I accidently made out to you. I guess I just had you on my mind when I wrote that response, it was not done delibreately to insult nor provoke.I do not buy into a "gang" type mentality

@ Sophist;

I didn't know I was being "tested", and for what I might ask? Anyhow, your question " Can supporters of MSZP, be patriotic as well" Of course, why couldn't they be? Different political views, are just that different political views. I bet if we started talking about " non-political" issues, you would find alot of us have the same/similar beliefs. Having said that here's a "test" question, What is your wifes opinion on this present MSZP Government inregards to their performance over the last 8 years, towards Hungary and the Hungarian people?

@ Olga;

I'm trying to figure out if you are pretending to be an idiot or you are an idiot. I have already figured out that you can not read OR if you can, you ignore what is writen and fill in the blanks with what YOU want in there. For the last time I SAID "PATRIOTIC" AND NOT "PATRIOT". Now do you understand you halfwit? The way you run around this site, sucking up to Viking, Wolfi, Sophist and Erik, if anything, is obvious and pathetic. So why don't do just focus on hating you parents...hmmm.

@ Sophist

Thanks. Sounds like your wife and I have a lot in common - I often think the person is more important than the party (especially in Hungary given what I have been reading) and I also believe in tactical voting if I am not in love with the favourite to win

Moreover, we both have "nem Tiszta Magyar" children. Kind of tainted by WASP blood, don't you think? A cross they must bear.

On the other hand, both you and my husband realized that if you wanted perfection, you must choose a Hungarian wife (ditto for Viking and Wolfie)

I don't even to pretend to understand Hungarian politics but pathetic as it is, the only world wide attention Hungary received in the political arena was the Gyurcsany fiasco. Without knowing any facts, I thought that Bajnai must be very brave to want to take over knowing he will always be associated with Gyurcsany and be considered his protege.

BTW, I am not sure if this could happen in Hungary and I will make it brief. Many years ago, there was a Provincial Election in Ontario- Liberals were the incumbents and were expected to win. Two other parties, Conservative and NDP ran against them. People were pissed off with the Liberals and wanted them to have a Minority gov't this time, so they voted NDP ( "tactical voting" )as the NDP was the least likely party to win. Yep, the NDP won

@ Curious George/Boy George;

There is a comment for you, from me, 27 posts down. I accidently wrote @ Mark.

@justasking
I would take issue with your response to Sophist that supporters of MSZP may be patriotic as well. You would have to put many qualifications on it. Bob translated the paragraph for Bayer’s article better than I could have. He probably not inclined to translated the entire article but it would answer many questions. MSZ(M)P is responsible for the torture and murder of countless Hungarian patriots and those people who assisted these criminals in any way are traitors.

Mark---Thanks for the kind words,take care and do not waste too much energy here-the real hard work starts from next week!
Viking is an arsehole agitator with a very intelligent Hungarian wife-what is in her heart will never go away,no matter what her idiot husband say's to her.
Vandorlo is a cry baby coward who likes to play 'site meter 'games and throw statistics at you but never really speaks honestly.He reads too much but knows nothing of the real world,however Erik loves him,so expect no changes around here.
Take care,keep low key, and we all WILL meet soon.
Szebb jövőt

@Justasking

Want to acknowledge your charming missive posted at 4.03 BP time.

I am sure you did not expect an answer. If you did, sorry to disappoint you.

@ Mark & Sophist;

Mark, I agree, it would largely have to do with ones mindset. Sophist asked me if it was possible to be both partriotic and a MSZP supporter, I took him literaly. Meaning, if his wife has " feelings, expressing or inspired by love for one's country" then in my book you could not would not hurt your fellow country men for you own gain. Now, if he were to have said to me " my wife is corrupt and supports MSZP, my answer would be different.

Sophist;

Please tell me you wife is not corrupt and does infact feel towards Hungary like I described.

@ Olga;

Your right, no answer was required because no question was asked.

@justasking
Olga got under my skin because I expected better form her. I did not tell her off as you did out of respect for her parents but I have been ignoring her. I am not angry with her. It just a sense of what’s the use.

@Ricsi: "Vandorlo is a cry baby coward who likes to play 'site meter 'games and throw statistics at you but never really speaks honestly.He reads too much but knows nothing of the real world..."

Perceptive as well as smart.

Happy New Year, to you too.

Oh, hold a mo', the Russian Orthodox Christmas is only tomorrow (7th), so it's a little early for you. New Year is on the 13th isn't it.

Oh, and when you next report in to your masters could you ask your friends in the Politburo to lay off on the Finno-Ugric minorities in Mari-El and elsewhere please?

They've been having a hard time for well on 10 years now (the Putin years from 31 December 1999 onwards).

Hi Ricsi,
Have a super day my friend.
Szebb jövőt

@ Mark;

Well, at least somebody respects her parents, cause it sure in the Hell ain't her. Christ, even Viking or Wolfi don't stab their wives in the back, their country yes; but, not their family.

I suppose this is what people were talking about, back when the AVO was around, you trusted nobody, not even family, for they could, would and did turn you in.

@ Mark;

Well I guess thats the example that Olga was looking for.

Sorry folks, the above post was to go onto another thread. The one for Gov't says decision on secret...

@justasking
Do not be so hard on Olga. She reads Balogh’s blog. It is enough to confuse anyone. The translations from Hungarian to English are excellent but the way she slants everything against Hungarians is astonishing. Olga was searching for something and she thinks she found it.

@ Mark;

Oh, does Eva Balogh give step by step advise on how to shit on ones parents in public/on the internet? I did not know that, maybe I should than back off on her a little bit.

@justasking

Not sure why I bother responding to you - I drank too many teas with honey so I think I am sweeter than usual.

Please accept my apology if I am incorrect in my memory of your posting last October - The Revolution's Anniversary was the topic.

I believe one of your Uncles was a freedom fighter and your Dad witnessed his death or he was not a witness but lost his brother. When your Dad left the country, he may very well have feared a Communist reprisal because of his brother's actions.

My Mom and Dad were jailed around 1950 for trying to escape Hungary (Maybe you read Anna Porter's book about her attempted escape from Hungary at that time, it was the exact same story)

My Dad was not involved in the Revolution - he always feared the Communists, feared the neighbours reporting his listening to Radio Free Europe - (he was fluent in English and German) He never mentioned fear of reprisal connected to the 56 Revolution.

So for the sake of families like yours, I do not want to include myself in the same category.

My opinion has not changed. I believe people who had no fear of reprisal from being involved in the '56 Revolution, they left the country for a better life. I was brought up on an anti-Communist diet including "Communists are running the Canadian Liberal party" - My Dad thought I was "misguided" but he also respected the fact that I thought differently. He said:" "Te soha nem fogod megerteni hogy mit tudnak a Communistak csinalni" We left it at that

@ Olga;

You really don't pay attention to what you read. No, I never said that my parents escaped Hungary for fear of prosecution for the actions of my 2 Uncles that died in front of him. My Dad was right behind them, meaning he was in on whatever they were doing. My parents escaped Hungary for a better life, knowing that it was not going to be in Hungary anytime soon. Having their fear confirmed when seeing Russian tanks barreling down in the streets of Pest, destroying everything and everyone in it's path. My parents were 20 and 24 years old, they were kids, they were sacred and they were human. Just like the many thousands of other Hungarians that you take great pleasure in insulting everytime you open your stupid mouth.

I could care less what opinion you hold of the people that left in 56'.

As for your Dad speaking German, so what, so did my parents, for you had to learn it in school and later I believe Russian.

I highly doubt that your Dad "respected the fact that you thought differently (now there's an oxymoron if I ever heard one, you thinking) more like shut his mouth and wondered how he could have Fathered a child so basic.

Vandorlo@Happy new year to you also, in all sincerity.
My offer from last year still stands-just mame time and place (not February-too many travels to UK and Russia)for an amicable glass of wine (or two!)

@Ricsi: Thanks for the greeting. Send me an email vandorlo AT centralbudapest.com and I'd be glad to meet. As I warned Olga it takes me a while to answer email, so send it well in advance and give me time to pick through the filters should it get digested - I have them set on 'paranoid', but as a Snort pro, you'll understand why.

Vandorlo--might just do that-soon!
best wishes you Irish blood hound.

@Justasking - Apologies. I mean to write "chest thumping (or breast beating)" since I was directing my comments at a woman, and I did clarify that it was a cultural thing. Nothing sexual. Just trying to be PC and inclusive.
I was just trying to explain that we set a very high bar for someone before he/she can be declared a patriot.

Yes, it must be comforting to know that I AM PATRIOTIC, like Kossuth, who also fled Hungary to never to come back.
The others came back and did cosy up with the Habsburgs with the Ausgleich/Kiegyezés by Ferenc Deák.
Some got some nice positions, like Andrassy.
Are we to remember Deák and Andrassy as traitors?
Or did they do the best that could be done for Hungarians in that situation?

Hi Mark

In reference to your comment re Eva S Balogh - I copied the info below from the Internet in case you are interested or if you are not, maybe someone else is. (You may also know all this info and it's no news)

When I first read her articles, I wanted to know the person behind the writings and I was impressed by her credentials plus I gave her bonus points for getting her Undergrad degree in Ottawa (just kidding about the last sentence.)

"Eva S. Balogh received her B.A. in history at Carleton University, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. She continued her education at Yale University: M.A. in Russian and East European Studies and Ph.D. in History. She taught at Yale University concentrating on East European history, the diplomatic history of World War I, and nationalism. In addition, she served as dean of Morse College, one of the twelve residential colleges at Yale University. Since 1994 she has thrown herself into a new field: current Hungarian politics."

Thus she pursued the "new field" for 16 years.

Could it mean that following Hungarian politics is fascinating and addictive for anyone who has ties to the country?

@ Boy George;

Think nothing of it!

Just a little Anatomy 101 for you. Womens "breast" are located on our "chest", similar/same area to the male "nipple" or sometimes known "man boobs" being located on men.

So, if I am to understand your correctly. When I am directing comments to a male, in your culture, I should, instead of saying "chest beating" say "'nipple beating", is that right? Especially, if I want to be PC and inclusive and not have my comments construed as sexual? As for "breast beating", I've never heard of such a thing, so it must be exclusive to your culture. Interesting.

I would think that all cultures view their "Patriots" in a similar respectful manner and in high regards. That is why I would never call myself a "patriot", only "patriotic".

@ Viking;

Fascinating! Exactly who are you "patriotic" too? As for the rest of your comment, you'll have to decide for yourself, I can't decide for you.

@justasking - thanks for your anatomy lesson (as your know, Boy George has no real interest or knowledge of breasts, boobs etc).
Yes, I agree that you defined yourself as patriotic, however, there appears to be many people declaring themselves as patriots here.

you'll have to decide for yourself, I can't decide for you.
justasking at January 7, 2010 3:39 AM
---
This is a try (again) to a serious discussion.
I have children (OK bastards ('half-blood')) who spend their day in the Hungarian School System.
Should they be told (indoctrinated?) that Deak and Andrassy were Great Hungarians (and therefore Great Patriots), or they should be told (indoctrinated?) that these 2 historic figures were cowards sucking up to the Habsburgs and the only 'Real Hungarian Patriot' was Kossuth?
It has bearing on any discussion on Hungarian Patriotism, then it shows that people so opposite in outlook (Kossuth versus Deak/Andrassy) could or could not be regarded as Hungarian Patriots at the same time, even if they regarded the other party as totally wrong and totally disagreed on the tactic for the Hungarian Nation.
By discussing another historic period we take away much of the Jewish question that seem to poisoning every debate here, but maybe that is the problem?
-
So was it correct by Deak/Andrassy to choose the way where Hungarians became the Habsburg's favourite servants, instead of the Slavs?
Because this was their tactic, to get the Habsburgs to stop playing the Slavic Card against the Hungarians and get the upper hand against the Slavs.
Was this an act of Patriotism or not?
This lead eventually to the situation at WWI and Trianon.
Kossuth continued to travel the world as the 'Real Patriot Hungarian', but was he?

Mark,

"You and some others will never understand Jobbik because you reject the basic idea that Hungary is for Hungarians"

It's not a question of understanding, it's a question of interest. I've lived in Hungary for 14 years, I work as a school teacher, I pay my taxes, I raise my family. But by no stretch of the imagination could I ever be regarded as a Hungarian. But I don't see how I can be damaging Hungary or Hungarians.

It is also seems odd to me that you want to classify Jews and Gypsies living in Hungay as non-Hungarians. You argue that speaking Hungarian is the key to a Hungarian identity, but regard Morvai and György Baló as being an ethnically mixed couple - "It is not be the first time that the parents’ mixed race or ethnicity causes conflict for their children". Do you think he doesn't speak Hungarian.

Justasking,

" What is your wifes opinion on this present MSZP Government inregards to their performance over the last 8 years, towards Hungary and the Hungarian people"

I think that last part of your question implies that the MSZP can be seen as having acted against the interests of Hungary, in favour of foreign influences. That it not the way that she looks at it. She sees the Government acting against the interests of Hungary, in favour of themselves. As she expects all politicians to be corrupt, it is important for her to support one that she knows to be better than most.

Personally, I can see a way in which self-interest and foreign interest can be combined, when domestic politicians get involved in supernational organisations, and advance themselves within those organisations through cutting deals which benefit those multinational organisations. Gerhard Schröder's involvement in Gazprom is an example of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der#Gazprom

I know that Gyurcsany has been sniffing around for work in Germany, but Hungarian politicians rarely have the international clout to be corrupt in this way.

@Everyone: Just noted a story that may take a day or two to get out. Jobbik have just announced that they are putting Pörzse Sándor to stand as their candidate in District I (aka Castle District).
Can someone tell me if it is true that he was fired last year from EchoTV after he slaughtered a horse on live TV? I read about it last year and it stuck in my mind (for obvious reasons), but I've never seen another story about this. After a quick search I found the original blog post: http://fricska.blog.hu/2008/10/04/porzsolo1
Is it true?

@Sophist
The fundamental concern for Hungarians is the ownership of Hungarian farmland and other real estate. This became is especially a concern after Peres’ bragging about buying up Hungary. Sukoró is just one instance where Jews in Hungary and the government tried to transfer choice real estate to Israeli ownership. I call that treason.
The other major is public safety and crime, mostly gypsy crime and corrupt politicians and government officials. Unless you are engaging in these criminal activities, you should not be concerned about Jobbik’s goal to clean up crime and corruption.
I am concerned with your approach what I, Law or other Hungarians concerned for Hungary post. You take a statement and run off with it, expanding it and adding your own interpretation as it was mine.
Your comments about Morvai and her husband Balo make no sense at all. Why is it a problem for you that Balo is a Jew if I am not concerned? I think that it is sick. Hungarians are a made up of people of different ethnic background. I feel sorry for your pupils if after spending 14 years in Hungary I have to tell you what makes them Hungarians.

Justasking,

"Please tell me you wife is not corrupt and does infact feel towards Hungary like I described"

Ok, the last part is easy: my wife is very attached to Hungary. Before we married I was working as a "management consultant" for an international country, after working in Hungary for two years, I went on to Russia, the Czech republic and back to the UK - asking her all the time to join me. She wouldn't budge, and to be with her I had to move back to Hungary, and give up any hopes of similar employment - a decision I do not regret.

The "corrupt" question is more difficult, because there is lots of aspects of everyday life in Hungary that strike Western Europeans/North Americans as corrupt, generally falling under the Hungarian word "protekció". Though it could be more charitably called "networking". For example there was a problem with my paycheck, and because my wife works in the same office she was able to bypass a level of bureacracy to get it sorted out more quickly - I think that is "corrupt" in the sense of exploiting a personal contact, but I would be pushed to find a Hungarian living in Hungary who does.

"ownership of Hungarian farmland " by foreigners must be something terrible!

Now I have to tell you that the brothers who sold their dead parents' farmhouse to me almost 12 years ago (from 1998 it was legal for foreigners to buy houses) also wanted to sell the neighbouring peace of land (outside the village's built area) but that was not possible -

so the lawyer made a contract that gives me the right(and the obligation!) to use that land and I paid for that.

I didn't really want to buy it, 1500m2 is enough for me, but none of the neighbours was interested in buying that 4000 square meters of farmland ...

There are enough peaces of land around here that have not been cultivated for years - nobody wants to work them ...

Mark,

"I feel sorry for your pupils if after spending 14 years in Hungary I have to tell you what makes them Hungarians"

We're obviously getting our wires crossed. You're the one saying "Hungary for the Hungarians", you're the one that needs a definiton of Hungarian, not me. I've never told my students what makes them Hungarian, because I don't know.

Let's make this really simple:

1) Is Krisztina Movai a Hungarian?

2) Is Győrgy Baló a Hungarian?

You can answer those in two words !!

Sophist: Yes

Sophist, why even answer. Mark isn't even a Hungarian, nor is Law. They are both outsiders wanting be what their parents ran away from.

@Sophist
I give you one more answer and it is about their children. They could go either way.

Mark,

"Yes":

presumably to both?

"They could go either way."

If both parents are Hungarian, "either way" doesn't make sense, there's only one way the children can go. (Presumably a jobbik !!!)

What you have written doesn't make sense, please clarify.

Sophist,
You, a teacher and you should be able to figure it out yourself. This is not something so difficult. A lot depends on the influences as they grow up and the parents’ relationship. Dr. Morvai is a leader of a movement for a better Hungary, an independent, strong Hungary fro all Hungarians of the Carpathian Basin. There is no question about her vision for her children but outside influences cannot be ignored.
Take a look at Olga, at the very least she should not be hostile towards Hungarians but she is. I do not blame her parents for that but her environment. Maybe her marriage to a Canadian and her desire not to be different made her what she is. Some children of immigrants are proud of their parents’ heritage while others are ashamed. Law and Olga are perfect examples. I suspect that Olga was ashamed of whom she was long before she heard of Jobbik…
Going back to the children, if they learn that Hungarian resentment at the horrors of Communism, mostly Jewish Communism and Israeli designs against Hungary does not mean that Hungarians hate Jews, they will be fine. If they are exposed to the likes of Balogh and other Hungarian hating Jews, they will turn into Hungarian hating Jews.
I hope for the best…

@ Mark

I am not going to dignify your comment with a response that could possibly interpreted as a denial "I suspect that Olga was ashamed of whom she was long before she heard of Jobbik…"

I am curious though -Please let me know very briefly how you came to that conclusion.

Off Topic: Are you familiar with Anna Porter and have you read any of her books or her article about JOBBIK?

Go Jobbik!! This guy will be a bonus for Hungarians.

http://barikad.hu/node/44395

"Ha ott van a szíved, mindig találsz megoldást, ha nincs ott a szíved,
mindig találsz kifogást."

@Olga
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/leaders4_5.htm
“Author Anna Porter has just released a book in which she defends that Rudolf Kastner, who was found to be a Nazi collaborator in a Jerusalem trial in the early 1950s, was instead a great Jewish hero”
So much for Anna Porter

@ Mark

AS usual you avoided answering the questions. You are never going to answer directly , are you?

Instead you sent some website review of one of Anna Porter's books. Newsfalsh: controversial books supporters and detractors.

I guess she is just another anti-Hungarian like I am.

BTW since you are such a patriot, I shall cut and paste a quote for you. I am getting good at cutting and pasting.

"The people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders. All you have to do is tell them that they are in danger of being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
Hermann Goering

JOBBIK tactics?

Jobbik program
Constitutionality
After German occupation in 1944, Hungary was deviated from legal continuity and neither communism nor the system change clientele was interested in restoring constitutionality, so we aim: to replace the current Constitution with one based upon Szent Korona-doctrines.

Mark,

"This is not something so difficult."

Maybe not, but it still seems illogical.

"Dr. Morvai is a leader of a movement for a better Hungary, an independent, strong Hungary fro all Hungarians of the Carpathian Basin. There is no question about her vision for her children but outside influences cannot be ignored."

OK,fine. But what about the father; is Győrgy Baló a Hungarian? Or is he an outside influence?

PS Can you give quote me something Olga has posted which is anti-Hungarian?

With Mark banging on about Jewish Communism, again, here's a link to something more substantial on the topic.

web.ceu.hu/jewishstudies/pdf/01_krajewski.pdf

courtesy of

http://varangy.blogspot.com/2008/08/stanisaw-krajewski.html

Friggen Jewish Crap!!

@Sophist
I see no problem with Győrgy Baló. He would not have married a strong Hungarian woman if he did not consider himself Hungarian. Why is it a problem for you if it is not a problem for me? While I will never forget or forgive the horrors the Jewish Rakosi gang inflicted on my people and support Jobbik’s efforts to protect Hungary from Israeli takeover, I do not see all Jews as evil. I have not seen anything to doubt that if Baló says that he is Hungarian, he is Hungarian. If I have no problem with that, why should you?

There is another thing, I find it very amusing that some of you think of me as a spokesperson for Jobbik. I tell you how I feel about things an what I support an what I oppose but I only speak for myself. Some of you ask me questions pretending that they are addressing Jobbik. If you want to know what Jobbik stands for, you need to read the Jobbik site. They have an English version. It is not as complete as the Hungarian version but it still has a lot of good information.

The way Olga talks about her parents, Jobbik and Magyar Garda and quotes Goering shows not only that she is anti-Hungarian but also very ignorant.

Mark,

"I have not seen anything to doubt that if Baló says that he is Hungarian, he is Hungarian."

Now we're making progress. So if Morvai is a Hungrian, and Balo is a Hungarian, in what sense are they a mixed race couple? Why did you write
"It is not be the first time that the parents’ mixed race or ethnicity causes conflict for their children"? Mistake or some subtle difference I haven't dragged out of you yet?

Also, how does this self-declaration principle apply more generally. For example, 2/3rds of the people that sociologists regard as gypsies in Hungary, declare themselves to be Hungarians, how will Jobbik deal with "Gypsy crime" when the criminals declare themselves to be Hungarian?

@ Mark

"He would not have married a strong Hungarian woman if he did not consider himself Hungarian. "

I think most people marry for love - they normally don't care about the person's Nationality unless they need a "green card".

This may come as a shock but you do not make up the rules of who is and who is not Hungarian despite you and Law thinking you have the market cornered on the rules and regulations.

The absolute gall of someone sitting in the USA and telling me who is and who is not Hungarian
is astounding.

From what I understand, you are a Yankee and Law is an Australian and if push comes to shove, I am more Hungarian than both of you unless your birthplace is Hungary. Then you are as Hungarian as I am. Like it or not.

If you don't see the Goering quote as the JOBBIK
MO then you are blind.

As far as this crap that Law posted - so he wants
Hungary to have a King? WTF is he talking about? Going back to the feudal system? Hungary is going to resemble the logo on the Hungarian Ambiance website? I guess there will be less pollution with no automobiles around.

You make accusations without a scintilla of evidence. That's exactly what those f...ing Communists did that you despise.

They decided who was the "enemy of the State" and if no evidence could be found, they invented it.
Just like you.

One must understand that in the Hungarian Kingdom everything belonged to the Holy Crown, which possessed all the powers of the land; the king merely enforced the Crown's laws. This was a highly idealistic form of governing.
In one of his letters dated from the middle of the thirteenth century, King Béla IV (1235-1270) spoke of the Crown being Holy; he separated the king's power from the Crown's. Some suggest that this crown was made for Jesus, to crown him at the time of His resurrection as King of the World  that would account for the source of its holiness. It is incredibly intriguing that such a thought could crop up in anyone's mind. But, that's just part of its allure: the numerous unsolved mysteries surrounding the Hungarian Holy Crown.
Jews ridicule the Holy Crown because once it’s implemented all the truth about the Jews lies will be exposed..

He would not have married a strong Hungarian woman if he did not consider himself Hungarian
Mark at January 7, 2010 4:56 PM
---
You just must love Mark's "logic", it is just so cool.
And itmake myself and Wolfie and Sophist and ...? into 'Hungarians' because you do not mess about with our Hungarian wifes, right?
If I remember correct Wolfie's wife may be Schwäbish, but I still have to find a Jobbik person that will attack that minority (the only one left?). Probably too close to the German thing (in their mind).
Otherwise I have a similar story as Sophist, I tried to get this Hungarian woman to move to a place where we would be on equal footing (two foreigners), like Australia, but in the end she refused, so here I am.
Not that I complain.
-
Sophist, what happened with Varangy?
He seems to deteriorate mentally and putting up a post every 6 months or so.
Or he is just pestering us under other aliases, but he had a certain style that I do not recognise nowadays.

Kings and Queens from all countries down the centuries believed they ruled by, "Divine Right".
The French Revolution circa 1789 certainly relieved the erstwhile nobles of this theory. Trouble is, they lost their heads also and weren't around to acknowledge the outcome.

To go back to this of being an 'Hungarian Patriot' and Mark's repeated behaviour to talk-down everything in today's Hungary.
The last days Mark has, as 'Mr Patriotic Hungarian' several times claimed that the situation in the US is better. The US has better laws, in the US all bad politicians would be in jail etc.
To me it seems Mark is a better 'Patriot' for the US than Hungary.
-
I love it when Mark in one post claims the US 1st Amendment, the right to say what you want about minorities etc, and then in the next post claims that if Hungary had been the US he could have sued every one's ass off because of what they just wrote/said.
Just 'logic'.
Kind of.
Maybe.

@Viking:

Still trying with Mark, our resident "patriot/patriotic/nationalist a**hole" ? Which country /state/nation is he a patriot for anyway ?

BTW:

My wife is a "real" Hungarian "from the Puszta" who moved to Heviz a few years ago (later than I did) and we met "by accident" - actually it was arranged by a common acquaintance who thought we might make the perfect match - and it worked ...

As (im)probable as a win in the lottery, but true ...

@ Viking;

Okay, serious dicussion about Kussuth, Deak and Andrassy. Patriot: One who loves his country and zealously supports it's authority and interests. All three men meet the criteria and deserve the title of patriot. I agree, they all had different approaches ( Kossuth a hot-head in your face kinda guy, Deak: level headed, kept his cool, believed in negotiating) but, all three had the same love and passion for Hungary and it's people and desire to see it succeed. Now, some people are of the opinion that if a person flees their country, for whatever reason, (fear for your life, exiled etc) they automatically loose all credibility. I do not agree with this. Leaving ones country does not mean you suddenly stop loving it, stop wanting what is best for the country and it's people. Yes, there are times when people leave and are not allowed to comeback (case in point Kossuth) yet, for the rest of his life, did what he could with what he had. He promoted Hungary where ever and whenever he could, I do not doubt his love for Hungary. Deak/Andrassy, "cowards sucking up to the Habsburgs" hardly, they negotiated, compromised to "reconcile the union of the empire" so that oneday Hungary would be independent. These are not the actions of cowards, these are the actions of patriots.

On a side note, you were correct, when you said that you and I have different outlooks on what a "loving and stable" environment for our children would be.

@ Sophist;

Please let me rephrase, I believe that the present LEADERS of the MSZP acted against the interest of Hungary in favour for themselves. So, I agree with your wife 100% and tell her I say Hi. Pursuing foreign interest to BENEFIT Hungary and it's people... Yeah Ha!! Pursuing foreign interest with the intent of SELLING OUT your country...Bad!

Corrupt: Lacking in integrity, open to involving bribery, dishonest practices. Do I consider your wife corrupt by "western standerds" NO. Big difference between CORRUPT behavior and "UTILIZING ONES RESOURCES". What your wife did with your paycheque,(had it corrected) would have been done eventually, she just helped expidite it. BUT, if she would have used her personnal contact to double the amout just because, I would call that corrupt.

PS: There is a difference between a "mixed race" marriage and a "interfaith marriage". And no I do not want to be sucked into that conversation.

all three had the same love and passion for Hungary and it's people and desire to see it succeed
justasking at January 7, 2010 9:27 PM
---
Interesting conclusion that is easier to make so long time after, when the real issues has disappeared. Hungary is now an independent State and we do not need to discuss how Hungarians should relate to the Habsburg.
-
On the other hand, maybe Hungary will have a Habsburg as MEP from Hungary in 6 months time (MDF). One question could be if a Habsburg ever can be a Hungarian Patriot?
-
If we know keep this open attitude and look at the time 1945-1990. Were all leaders in Hungary at that time just bad, or were there some that actually tried to limit the Russian influence and tried to keep Hungarians in charge. In a bit similar way as Deak and Andrassy, or is that period still just Black and White?
-
Remember that Kossuth did not have any high opinion of the people that stayed in Hungary and cooperated with the Habsburgs.
Kossuth actively worked to set up an Hungarian Legion that would liberate Hungary from the Habsburgs during the Crimean War and later from Italy. He was not exactly the person who was out to negotiate. I do not think he would like to be remembered on the same level as Deak and Andrassy.
But today we do not need to bother us about the discussions 140 years ago, that is why it is so easier to say that all were on the same level.

Hi Justasking, please don't fall into the the trap
Viking is setting up, he is only on this site to
target patriotic Hungarians and no matter what
evidence you present or believe he will counter by
using smearing tactic, he and his gang are the
lowest of low... No backbone gutless worthless
aresholes..

Hi Justasking you speak from the heart while they
speak from groin area, their vibrations are
manipulated by their lack of heart, they're ignorant
human beings that refuse to unite Hungarians but
rather divide them by ridiculing and tarnishing
anything with element of truth..

I agree that Viking often portrays a negative attitude toward any subject or issue up for discussion on this forum.
Only he knows what his modus operandi is, and we can only guess.
Grandiloquent talk concerning patriotism and nationalism is all well and good on this site between supposedly educated people. But out on the streets in the real world? Quite a different story altogether.
Hungary has culture, and tradition, and a proud people that are steadily losing their way because of successive useless and corrupt political leadership.
Farkas Lászlo provides us with reams of info about Hungarian filmstars and directors that made good.
It would be beneficial to us all if some of the more turgid contributors on these pages diversified and followed in his wake.
Szent Istven, Horvath, Bela K, etc are all dead.
And Israel and Palestine, America and Canada,
are all faraway lands with their own agendas.

@ Viking

The only Hapsburg I know of who truly loved Hungary and the Hungarians loved her back was the Empress Elisabeth and she was Bavarian. History is fascinating - I wonder if the French live in the Court of the Sun King the way some people in Hungary live in the past.

BTW, Can I assume that you don't frequent Swedish websites and make decisions on who should or should not be Swedish?

@ TK

Re: "America and Canada, are all faraway lands with their own agendas."

Who would you like to see on this website? People who live in Hungary regardless of their place of birth and and who have a huge vested interest of the election outcome?

If the answer is yes, it would be hard to disagree with you.

@Olga: As a matter of pure speculation (a thought experiment if you like), do you think Budaházy is similar to Luigi Lucheni as an exponent of 'propagande par le fait'? http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propagande_par_le_fait

@Olga: 'better' link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propagande_par_le_fait though living in Canada, you'd have fewer problems than most.

refuse to unite Hungarians but
rather divide them by ridiculing and tarnishing
anything with element of truth
Law at January 7, 2010 10:31 PM
---
Oh, now I have at least elements of truth, before it was just lies, so I am improving?
No, it is just a try (in vain with Law) to see if it is possible to have a debate on historical matters or not.
Most people seem to think that what Hungarians fought and died for 150 years ago is so totally different from today.
I do not, therefore it is interesting to see how the evaluation of what happened 150 years ago has shifted. Now it is - we were all Hungarians, united, with one goal - and we put Kossuth, Deak and Andrassy in the same club.
They hated each other and would not wanted to have anything with each other to do.
Kossuth's Extreme Liberals were popular among Hungarians, but they lost. The survivors were the 'pragmatic' politicians, how it is normally in revolutions and wars, the hard-liner lose in the end.
If we apply this accepted middle-of-the-road description on the events 1830-1890 in Hungary, where people who 'collaborated with the enemy', like Andrassy did (he became de facto Austria's Foreign Minister) anyhow are described as 'Patriots' and 'Great Statesmen', then it is, at least on a philosophical level, a question why 100 years later there were no Deak or Andrassy in Hungary under the Soviet occupation?
Is it our view on things that is different, or no 'Great Statesmen' existed in this period?

@ Viking;

You asked a question and I gave you an answer, let's just leave at that.

@ Law;

Hi there! Hope your feeling better.

The only Hapsburg I know of who truly loved Hungary and the Hungarians loved her back was the Empress Elisabeth and she was Bavarian
olga at January 7, 2010 11:10 PM
----
Yes, but much of people's knowledge of her is also part of this sugary-sweet pastry that we today recognise as the Double-Monarchy.
In reality I would more believe the following wiki-quote:
"In 1988, historian Brigitte Hamann wrote The Reluctant Empress, a biography of Elisabeth, reviving interest in Franz Joseph's consort. Unlike previous portrayals of Elisabeth as a one-dimensional fairy tale princess, Hamann portrayed her as a bitter, unhappy woman full of self-loathing and various emotional and mental disorders. She was seen to have searched for happiness, but died a broken woman who never found it"
-
The story gets even more interesting when Count Andrassy was probably the father of Sisi's only son, Crown Prince Rudolf. Count Andrassy obviously took his task as 'Great Statesman' to a greath lenght.
-
Crown Prince Rudolf killed his young mistress Baroness Mary Vetsera in 1889, when he was 33 years old. After sitting with Vetsera's dead body in his arms for hours, he eventually killed himself after written a note to his wife.
So, it seems to be some mental problems in that family.
The Kaiser had to go to the Pope to be able to bury Crown Prince Rudolf in the holy Roman family grave. Of course the Pope accepted (after proper 'contributions').

@ Viking

Elisabeth was a Wittlesbach - madness ran in the family.

She was first cousin to Ludwig ("Crazy Ludwig" ) and she "talked to him " long after he was dead.
Otto , his brother was locked up because of insanity. "Mad Ludwig" the movie was Hollywood
nonsense - wonder if FL saw it.

No wonder she was bitter - her Mother-in-law hated her because she loved Hungary while she (Sophie I think) hated and mistrusted the Hungarians because of 1848. For a free spirit, living in the Court of Vienna would have driven anyone mad even if they were not genetically predisposed to mental illness.

From books I read, Rudolf was Andrassy's son but let's face it, unless they conduct DNA evidence which they could, we'll never know.

I also read (theory, no proof) that Rudolf killed himself because he was involved with some plot against his father Franz Joseph and there were plans to have him crowned as King of Hungary and split the Empire. Intriguing but probably false. Moreover, he was supposed to have planned the double suicide with Maria Vetsera because he didn't want to die alone.

I have no doubt that all the documents that would have substantiated any of the "rumours" were destroyed before Rudolf was laid to rest in the crypt.

Fascinating stuff but rather (understatement) irrelevant today.

@ Vandorlo

"do you think Budaházy is similar to Luigi Lucheni as an exponent of 'propagande par le fait'?" ("Propaganda of the deed " was a new term for me. Should apply to suicide bombers and Al Quaida, shouldn't it?)

Interesting question.

Lucheni hated royalty and the upper class and I think his target was not Elizabeth but either a Bourbon or an Orleans Prince , Number 1 target changed travel plans so poor Sisi was the
next best thing for making him famous and getting his name in the paper.

I tried to figure out Budahazy's background when I first heard about his trial but there was not much info. He seems to be your garden variety criminal, charged with various violent crimes. Found his niche within ultra-right wing groups and gets the respect he never got in the real world.

I was not aware of Lucheni belonging to an anarchist organization, nor that he had a criminal past. – have you? I know he was an orphan and probably had a really rotten childhood with a chip on his shoulders. Of course if everyone who fit that description killed someone, we would not have a population explosion.

Pursuing foreign interest to BENEFIT Hungary and it's people... Yeah Ha!!
justasking at January 7, 2010 9:47 PM
---
Why do I think of Andrassy now?
===
Viking often portrays a negative attitude toward any subject or issue up for discussion on this forum
TK at January 7, 2010 10:48 PM
---
In comparison to the positive attitude our resident racist have against Hungary's minorities, I have no problem agreeing with you.
===
if a person flees their country, for whatever reason, (fear for your life, exiled etc) they automatically loose all credibility. I do not agree with this
justasking at January 7, 2010 9:27 PM
---
I do not know any one that would agree with that statement, but we in exile (I have emigrated from Sweden) must understand that our homeland is developing in a 'strange' direction and it is up to the people living there to fix it.
It is OK to ge 'Goodwill Ambassador' for your home country in your new neighbourhood, but I know that my opinions on what is happening in my home country is not welcomed. For the locals in Sweden I am a foreigner and I do not understand their situation after 17 years out.
So, being an Hungarian in exile and feel misunderstood and outcast, is not an Hungarian exclusivity, either.
When we speak about people born abroad and coming 'home' telling the locals off, well, that will hardly win any popular contest.
-
To answer Olga (lost that post):
No, I do not roam around Swedish websites and tell the locals how to run Sweden. It is their problem.

@justasking at January 7, 2010 9:27 PM
This is how I see these people. Not through hate to find faults in them but trying to understand that each did the best they could for their country, given their talents and circumstances.
I shy away discussing the relative merits of Hungary’s past Hungarian leaders with hostiles but I have seen many spirited discussions on some Hungarian lists amongst Hungarians who while treating our past Hungarian leaders with respects, did not shy away from saying where they erred and where they could have done better. I have some ideas of my own but I would never discussed them with people whose only interest is to smear Hungarians. Besides, we have a growing number of young and very talented Hungarian historians who do a much better job that I could. Sometimes it is not enough that your heart is in the right place, as in your case, you also need years of intensive study of historical records.
There are some programs on HirTV and DunaTV (available worldwide) presenting our history from the Hungarian perspective. One such program on HirTV is ŐSÖK TERE. There is so much anti-Hungarian garbage out there, including the trash, Balogh calls her dissertation, that one has to read with a critical eye everything during the past 65 years and even most of the stuff published today.

@Law at January 7, 2010 10:23 PM
I was saying the same thing to Justasking with more words. I like your answer better…

I get a kick out of some of these clowns asking me questions if I were all knowing about things that they pretend to want to know. Whatever answer they get, they go nuts. Maybe I cannot tell who a patriotic Hungarian is from as far away as Houston but I can tell Hungarian hating trash even as far away as the moon. Some of these are not satisfied with sucking the blood of Hungarians but they also want to interfere with Hungary’s internal affairs. In America, they would be deported as undesirable aliens.

Mark,

"I shy away discussing the relative merits of Hungary’s past Hungarian leaders with hostiles"

Who are these hostiles?

"I can tell Hungarian hating trash even as far away as the moon. Some of these are not satisfied with sucking the blood of Hungarians but they also want to interfere with Hungary’s internal affairs"

Who is the Hungarian hating trash?

@Mark: "he transferred the money from the company he set up to pay these people to his offshore company" To Austria

@Olga: "I am a big fan of Eva Balogh" Why am I not surprised… Have you met her? "Barikád is a virulently anti-Semitic, anti-Roma publication" Seems to be anti-Australian too: 'A gyilkosságok idén is folytatódtak: szombat éjjel leszúrtak egy 21 éves indiai diákot Melbourne-ben, amint dolgozni ment egy gyorsétterembe…' http://barikad.hu/node/44375 or were the Cronulla riots http://bit.ly/7glzN6 not that unusual after all?

@Pávaszem: I wouldn't have raised the point were I not interested to find out. The first link to kuruc is just the same, usual caterwauling.

The second does at least mention a direct reference to 'a widow of a goose farmer' ("egy elhunyt libatenyésztő özvegye").

My question (which appears both morbid and insensitive at face value but is not in anyway intended to be) is 'did nine people actually commit suicide as a direct result of Bajnai's actions?'

One widow offering oblations/libation and lighting candles years later does not constitute proof of anything.

Pávaszem to Vándorló “Like hell you are.”

You could say it again and again...

As Pávaszem writes Vandorloo, Viking, Sophist Cinaed, Olga, Erik, are all Demagogues' or ignorantly possessed by the above.
Thanks Pávaszem for the fine detail and helping people with the aha experience..

@Law: '...and helping people with the hahahahahahahahaha experience..' Seconded.

Trying to get nasty!! you filthy low life devilish scum..

justasking,

"What your wife did with your paycheque,(had it corrected) would have been done eventually, she just helped expidite it. BUT, if she would have used her personnal contact to double the amout just because, I would call that corrupt."

Obviously the amount involved and circumstances mean this is irrelevant (I lost out less rather than gained). But think about it systematically. What she did was bypass a whole level of administration - the gazdasági iroda at the school - to process a payment. The reason the school is in the loop is because they actually received my labour - and they should say that they did before any payment is paid to me.

If instead of working for the school, I sold them 100 computers and my wife waltzed in, presented my invoice and the her colleague OK'ed the payment, without the school doing so I think you'd see it differently. Even in Hungary, administrative procedures are usually there to prevent abuse.

By the way, there was a suggestion of scandal involving Magyar Balint and buying PCs for Schools. All I can tell you is that my school is grossly under-resourced and has rooms full of the the latest PC technology which is hardly ever used.

Law is even more funny when his blood pressure rises - be careful, you might get a heart attack - not that I care a lot, but we would have to find another joker here ...

@Sophist: "...my school is grossly under-resourced and has rooms full of the the latest PC technology which is hardly ever used." Isn't that always the case? It's easier to proposed using the latest technology to 'improve education' than concentrate on how people actually learn and educate themselves. It's also an easy visual trick headteachers can play on parents to tell them that the school must be decent as they have all the latest gimmicks. Just look at the laptop for every child brigade and the wireless schools. Keeps head teachers happy though.

@ Pavaszem

You are much too smart to come up defending barikad.hu as a mainstream newspaper because it reported an Australian hate crime.

About not being surprised that I admire Eva Balogh - why should you be?

It also follows that since you diametrically oppose her opinions, you gravitate towards baricad.hu , Hungarian Ambience etc.
No surprise - if I thought like you, I would do the same. Birds of feather etc.

In order to merit names like "filthy low life devilish scum." - all you have to do around here is disagree with an agenda that's hurtful to minorities and question accusations leveled at people without any evidence.

About crimes in Hungary:

Budahazy still has outstanding charges and he has been convicted and aquitted of crimes in the past. I gather he is not just an innocent bystander wrongly accused. However, what I think or what anyone thinks is irrelevant. If the Prosecution doesn't prove its case, I will be glad to see him found "not guilty"

If the politicians you mention absconded with millions, they ought to face criminal charges. If there is no paper trail and can't prove it you don't have a case.

Would you like to see a different type of justice system in Hungary?

I think you actually answer questions put to you
and I never have to ask myself :"what the f... is he ranting and raving about?"

So, what kind of Hungary do you think the 56 freedom fighters wanted to see? Do you think JOBBIK represents the ideas they died for?

@ Sophist;

Now you give me all the background info? Does not matter, I'm sure you get the jist of what I was saying.

Pava:

Go Pava! Go Pava! Go Pava! I just love this guy! No not in the way some of you pigs think either!

@ Viking;

You should also know, that your opinion on what is happening in Law and Pava's (sorry Mark, I don't know where you were born before 56' in Hungary or after 56' in the US)homeland is also not welcome. Maybe it's your approach? Or maybe the fact that you shit on all and sundry, then expect people to have a respectful/serious conversation with you and are surprise when they think you are pond scum. I don't know, I'm just guessing here. I wonder if I should change my handle to "justguessing" Now where was I...oh yeah. " Hungarian exile"-wow, you do take the cake for arrogance.

So lets recap here, Sweden doesn't want you, Hungary doesn't want you ( and vise versa) so why not just leave? And please lets not use you family as an excuse please, you already shared with us you opinion of your kids. Wait an sec, I just had an epiphany. Morvai is married to a Jew, and she supposidly hates them and your married to a Hungarian, and we KNOW you hate US. So, does that not mean that you have more in common with her than you'd like to think? Hmmmmm

The verdict is out:
-
PM's remark on Jobbik free opinion, says President
1/8 16:13
-
From MTI.
Yes Mark, the US Constitution and Free Speech is wonderful, right?

@justasking:

Are you maybe getting a bit hysterical ?

You "friends" have been throwing too much dirt and now it gets hurled back at them ...

Sweden doesn't want you, Hungary doesn't want you ( and vise versa)
justasking at January 8, 2010 4:25 PM
---
And how did you calculate this?
I was honest that in Sweden opinions of swedes that have left the country are not so welcome to tell the swedes how they should run their country, just that. It has nothing if I am welcome there or not.
For business reasons I am there rather often, so you do not need to be afraid of that.
And *who* is representing Hungary?
You, Mark, Law and Ricsi?
You do not start to get some problems, like De Gaulle "Europe? That is me!"
"Hungary? That is me, with my pen-pals!"

@ Wolfie;

I am not hysterical for I have nothing to get hysterical about. Although I can see how you would interpret it as hysteria, for you VERY RARELY have an original thought of your own. Now, be a good boy and go eat some of you wife's langos. Don't forget to tuck in your napkin into your shirt to catch your drool. Off you go!!

Olga: “So, what kind of Hungary do you think the 56 freedom fighters wanted to see? Do you think JOBBIK represents the ideas they died for?”

Nobody can speak for those who died for Hungary in 1956 but how about Gergely Pongrácz, the commander of arguably the largest and perhaps the best-known group of freedom fighters, at the Uprising's strongest and most lengthy point of resistance, Budapest's Corvin Passage?

IN YOUR HIGHLY VALUED OPINION, does Gergely Pongrácz qualify to speak for the freedom fighters?

Did he support or oppose Jobbik while still alive?

@ Mark

"what kind of Hungary do you think the 56 freedom fighters wanted to see? Do you think JOBBIK represents the ideas they died for?"
is not the same as asking him to speak on behalf of those who died. "Speaking on behalf" of people who died would be very inappropriate.

I just wanted you to know I read your posting and not ignoring your question. Never heard of Gergely Pongrácz but I want to know about him and will check him out. Not until Sunday or Monday though

BTW, what I appreciate about Pavaszem's postings and why I asked his ultra-right wing views is because I understand his arguments and can follow them. I can't do that with yours or Laws' and with justasking I don't even try. If it's a shortcoming on my part, then be it.

The reason you don't understand because you're
friggen ignorant and willfully chose to be

@Law:

Your manners are as bad as your command of the English - and the Hungarian language!

What did they teach you at school ?

At least try to use a spellchecker!

@Olga
I wonder if there is hardly any Hungarian who does not know who Gergely Pongrátz, sometimes spelled Pongrácz, was. For many Hungarians, Pongrátz is the embodiment of the very best of resistance to the Soviets. I think of Pongrátz as modern day Botond.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gergely_Pongr%C3%A1tz

Wolfi are you always this stupid or are you making a
special effort today

Hi Law,
He is that stupid. I used to throw him a bone but no more. It is useless. It is not necessary to respond to or refute his köpködését. Just let it go.
Szebb jövőt!

@Law and Mark:

Thanks for the compliments - now I realised why one of my neighbours calls his dog Botond ...

To be called ... by you is surely an honour that I probsbly share with a lot of people ...

Dream on!

why not just leave? And please lets not use you family as an excuse please, you already shared with us you opinion of your kids
justasking at January 8, 2010 4:25 PM
----
Why do you not just leave Canada?
If I interpret Olga as being the Rep for the Canadian population, you are not very welcome there
And do not use your family as an excuse, then we all know that you mistreat them by spending so much time on-line (because that was you some months ago doing the same complaint about me...)
Your kind just love to tell others to leave this or that country, to go and kill themselves etc.
Your kind do have a real problem living together with people of another opinion. You will have a wonderful time when your children gets big enough to denounce all your ideas, then that is what teenagers do in the process of getting independent.
-
On a similar note, I threw a party last night in my restaurant and had a discussion with one of my Jobbik-friends. He was very active before, but now pulled back when Jobbik became a big organisation. Something went wrong there inside, of which he does not want to speak about. He will though still vote for Jobbik for 2 reasons:
- He feel he will get something back personally (Jobbik offers him repeatedly paid positions)
- He gives Jobbik 8 years in the Parliament, then they are out, referring (a bit like me) to the Austrian example. Unlike me, he think Jobbik will though 'clean up' politics during that time.
No 'revolution' though, just small changes.

@ Mark
@ Mark

“I wonder if there is hardly any Hungarian who does not know who Gergely Pongrátz,”

Rest assured – there are others. If you think I am going to lie, google someone and pretend I heard of them, think again.

For once and for all:

I never claimed to be a Hungarian Patriot, never said I was patriotic. I am Hungarian and proud of it. I assume I would be equally proud of being Italian or any other nationality if I were born in that country

I visited Hungary as a tourist many times and I feel “at home” because the Hungarian people made me feel like I am one of them – because I am. If I hated Hungary, I would still be Hungarian. If I hated brown eyes, they would still be brown. I will always be Hungarian despite the fact my heart is not in Hungary – it’s wherever my family is. If they moved to Nigeria tomorrow, my heart would be there.

I haven’t had a chance to learn more about Pongratz but I will. Until September 2009, I didn’t know who Bajnai, Orban, Mesterhazy, Vona, Eva Balogh etc etc were as I didn’t have the slightest interest in Hungarian politics Now I am intrigued by it and challenged to understand it because it’s so confusing.

You, Law and your full-of hate buddies are not representative of the many wonderful Hungarians I met during my visits. Whether you like it or not, you have never written a sentence that supported the premise that you were an asset to the country. cont...

cont...

I don't pretend to me. Law would be if he contributed to the economy but I am convinced he is in a protective environment (not jail) and may not be a tax payer. If he is, then I am wrong and he has a vested interest in the upcoming elections.

The country needs people like Vandorlo, Viking, Wolfi Sophist and any other foreigner who pays taxes and support the sagging economy. They represent the values I was brought up with therefore I relate to them and pay attention to their opinions. I look forward to reading the upcoming JOBBIK agenda especially how they plan make it operational.

Hungarians are survivors – there are people who are visionaries – like FL. His attitude is the country’s hope. I feel confident that he is not unusual, he just speaks English, thus he educates those, who like me don’t speak Hungarian well enough to understand Hungarian newspapers.

How you and your buddies have the absolute gall to set the standards for “being Hungarian” gives the word insanity a new meaning.

@ Viking;

As per usual, the spins you put on conversations, typically come out of your ass. Why should I move, when infact unlike you, I am welcome in my own country? Olga's political beliefs are typical Eastern Canadian and mine, typically, Western Canadian...get it?

As for spending time on the internet and not with my children, you see unlike you, I work around THEIR schedule ( on the net during naps, school time etc)and not force them to "work" around mine.

As for problem living with people of different opinions...nope, have no problem with that. I do however have a problem with people that mock others countries, people of said country, heritage and patriots, all because they think they can.

Now, lets be real, you with friends, I doubt it, aquaintences maybe; but, friends?

Why should I move, when infact unlike you, I am welcome in my own country?
justasking at January 9, 2010 5:37 PM
---
How do you prove that statement?
How do you prove that I am not welcome in Sweden?
How do you prove that you are welcome in Hungary?
You can not do that, I can not do that either, we just believe what we want to believe.
I find it interesting that you say the same thing as I did, but you are not accused of being anti-Hungarian.
-
I sometimes think that Hungarians living outside the boarders of Hungary, are, at times, more patrotic to Hungary then the Hungarians that live inside of Hungary
justasking at January 8, 2010 11:16 PM
(http://www.politics.hu/20091020/slovakian-authority-launches-investigation-over-language-law-violation#c124)
-
That is exactly the point I made, when I used my own experience that people living *in* Sweden do not like it when they are told off on how to run the country by Swedes living abroad.
I do not think that people living in Hungary are so different
-
Of course there are people living in Hungary that do not like me. I do not try to be likeable even, but the few that have passed the barrier are good friends and we have helped each other during the 17 years I have been living here
Most of my Hungarian friends have always voted for MIEP/Jobbik, but another one yesterday was an old communist who worked in the diplomatic mission pre-90 and the financial police during Fidesz reign.
Politics is one thing, personal friendship another thing

Gee I have met many patriotic Hungarians in Hungary,
there are more people becoming interested in
Hungarian culture then ever before with patriotic
websites, Magyar Sziget festival, Szent Korona Radio
have many meetings presenting on historical and
cultural topics, this interest has developed since
the people have become aware of the Communist in
power, especially 2006 police brutalities.

Hungarians are cautious when first meeting
strangers, they are a lot savvier about opening up
about their political views then most other
nationalities,
they have reason to because of their history of
informers and demagogues

@ Viking;

You come across as anti-Hungarian, because you don't criticise Hungary, you pulverize anything and everything about it! I have yet to hear you say ANYTHING nice about Hungary. It is one thing to talk about and on occation, slam Hungarian politics; but, you don't stop there and that is where you, whether intentionally or unintentionally, come across as anti Hungarian.

YOU are the one who says that you are living in exile in Hungary, not me.

Look, this is stupid. Can we just drop it? We are getting nowhere with this tit-for-tat bullshit, lets just move on okay?

@Olga:

Thanks for your reassuring words. We just returned from a very nice dinner in a very nice restaurant (grilled goose liver and a filet steak) and I get to read, well the usual things ...

I'm not complaining though, we'll see what the future brings us ...

Have a wondewrful weekend - the same to everybody!

You come across as anti-Hungarian, because you don't criticise Hungary, you pulverize anything and everything about it!
justasking at January 9, 2010 7:13 PM
---
I cannot remember I slammed anything that has been good about Hungary. I do slam arguments that claim this or that people/country is superior to others, then I do not believe it. This site is about Hungary, so it is Hungary that is discussed.
Also I do not subscribe to the idea that to be 'Hungarian' (or friend of Hungarians) you must hate Jews, Slovaks, Roma and all other. Those arguments I slam.
This is what makes Mark's kind calling me anti-Hungarian, but I suppose that should be worn with pride then.
In Sweden I would be called anti-Swedish by the same kind as Mark's kind.
-
I think you misunderstood the word 'exile'. It does not only mean a punishment, it can be voluntarily also. I was thinking of using the word 'diaspora' instead, but I did not.
Maybe you Canadians speak another type of English than we do here in Europe, especially we who do not have English as our Mother-language?
-
NB: I do not claim any superiority in understanding/writing English and I am (as probably Law) dyslexic, but I use a spell-checker.

@Olga
I see the hate from you and those you embrace. Hungarians do not hate anyone but they want to be masters of their own country. They do not want to tread on others but they do not want others to tread on them either. However, you think that you know it all because you chose the side that wants to rob Hungary of its land and other resources. In your mind, those who do not want to be dispossessed are the haters and those who want to take over Hungary are the innocent victims.
You should not bother to find out about Pongratz, probably the greatest hero of Hungarian Uprising. Your father, if were still alive could tell you who he was but you showed us that you spit on his grave in your puffed up self-righteousness.
Fire away and call me more names but I hope you understand if I do not bother with your posts in the future.

@Olga and Viking:

Of course Mark and Law don't hate us, they just want us "hung", that's all ...

@ Viking;

LAST COMMENT ON THIS!

I have never heard you say anything nice about Hungary since I join this site back in August.

I have never said, nor will I ever say, you have to hate this group or that group to be Hungarian.

I thought it was a leap for you to use the word "exile" whether self impossed or not. A little on the dramtic side if you will.

I too use spell check everytime I post. Although I am not dyslexic, I'm just a plain ol', run of the mill, shitty speller.

There. Now can we move on?

I have never heard you say anything nice about Hungary since I join this site back in August
justasking at January 9, 2010 8:41 PM
---
Most of the discussions here can hardly be described as 'nice'.
I think we are a few that misses the 'nice' statements from Mark's kind in comments like:
- The Jewish Communists Are Ruling Hungary Today,
- The Hungarians are in minority in Hungary, just Jews and Roma,
- Hungary is the worlds most corrupt country
- The Jews are buying up Hungary,
- Roma can kill Hungarians unpunished,
- Hungarians are the Superior Race on the World, even Jesus was Hungarian
- The current politicians should be hung up in the nearest lamp-post
-
The above statements are the message Mark's kind like to spread about Hungary of today.
It is up to everyone to judge if they are 'nice about Hungary'.
I do not.
I think they are untrue and the more general statements are heard by Mark's kind in other countries, it has absolute nothing to do with Hungary and Hungarians.
It is a political ideology based on White Christian Supremacy that increases in strength when the national economy is in shamble and the international situation a bit shaky.
It is the type of ideology that is based on xenophobia and all complex situations can easily be explained in a all-black and all-white description. Hence the need to always have scapegoats and simple solutions.
People like Mark's kind give Hungary and Hungarians a bad name.
I do not expect any of Mark's kind to agree with me.

Viking. I have never heard you say anything nice about anybody or anything.
Why do so many of you respond to Mark and Law's comments if you despise them so much?
All in all this site is clogged up with ping pong contradictions that deter other posters from joining the discussion.
This is a political forum but it certainly isn't
democratic.

Why do so many of you respond to Mark and Law's comments if you despise them so much?
Igaz at January 9, 2010 10:43 PM
----
I debate the ideas they present, not how they are as persons.
I do not know any of them. They may be the 2 most nicest persons on the planet, but that would not change my opinion on the ideas they express.
If you want to read 'this is good'-type of posts I would strongly recommend Mr. Farkas.
And I would challenge any one to point to an original article on this site where people should say - 'Yes, this is good!'.
Most of (all?) the articles here are of the type what is bad in Hungary, so where should we get the 'Good' from?
And when we have posters that think that the Hungary I live in today is a 'communist dictatorship', how are you suppose to be 'positive' in that type of debate?
I do not do that tactical 'padding on the back' that mostly Law/Mark/Ricsi do. It is directly fetched from Bob's 'Teaching on Right-Wing Writing Posts'.
It is part of their 'guerilla-media tactic' to show that there is an 'organised opinion' out there. I try to concentrate on the issue, not the person. Sometimes I fail in that, not even I is 'Good'.

@ Viking;

Naughty, naughty, my little Swedish meatball. We were not talking about Mark, we were talking about YOU.

We were not talking about Mark, we were talking about YOU.
justasking at January 9, 2010 11:48 PM
---
And, how should my answer be then, to get your approval?
Please tell every one what is good in today's Hungary?
When I claim Hungary is a nice country to live in, I will immediately be charged with being a
- 'jew',
- 'communist',
- 'gypsy',
- 'blood-sucking foreigner',
by Mark's kind, so what is the meaning in claiming that (even if I actually think that)?

It's plain to see that viking is an Israel agent
along with his mossad scum.

This is what Hungarians' faced by the Jewish Commies Vörös vihar
http://kuruc.info/r/6/53322/

Hi Law,

Here is another great link
Szárnyaszegett Magyarország
http://barikad.hu/node/44447

The last paragraph is so very true especially about the parasites on this list:

„A kommunizmus megbukott mindenféle értelemben. De a kommunistáktól nehéz lesz megszabadulni, mert senki sem olyan konok és veszedelmes, mint egy bukott eszme haszonélvezője, aki már nem az eszmét védi, hanem mezítelen életét és a zsákmányt." /Márai Sándor/

I met Zsuzsa 2 years ago through friends, she told me one of the most horrific stories about her childhood that shakes me to this day, the story of when the Soviet red army broke into her parent’s home and raped her grandmother and her mother repeatedly.
Her grandmother fell pregnant and because of her Christian upbringing of morals and ethics had the child who was Zsuzsas’ mother.
Over the years the love towards Zsuzas’ mother was rarely expressed because of the mental shock and physical abuse from the memories of her grandmothers’ experience which had left such a traumatic scar that she cursed her daughter for being an illegitimate child and shunned for the rest of her life.
Zsuzsas’ mother also carried the horror of being born into a world of hate and never knowing her true father, only that she was the making of a rape victim, and this trauma and pain still appeared in Zsuzsa who was a 27 year old women. True Story!!

@Law:

This is a really sad story, rape is one of the worst crimes "against humanity" and obviously one of the worst things that can happen to a woman (or a man!).

However something in your stor cannot be true:

"... and raped her grandmother and her mother repeatedly"

°Her grandmother fell pregnant and because of her Christian upbringing of morals and ethics had the child who was Zsuzsas’ mother°

Either her mother was raped or her mother was born from rape ?

I understand the hate that developed from that, but why transfer it to everybody ?

Hi Law,

This is why I consider my enemies those who call “felszabadulás” our loss of war and all that it brought upon our people. The Soviet red army would have raped and murdered as most conquering armies do but the carnage was intensified by the hate propaganda fed to them by such Jewish hate mongers as Ilya Ehrenburg:

And in another leaflet: "The Germans must be killed. One must kill them ... Do you feel sick? Do you feel a nightmare in your breast? ... Kill a German! If you are a righteous an conscientious man - kill a German! ... Kill!"

This is typical of the steady diet of pathological hate fed to millions of Soviet troops by this Jew, safely ensconced far from the front.

Naturally, the hate that this Jew planted in the Soviet troops did not stop at the Hungarian border. It had nothing to do with fighting a war but everything with the horrible rape and murder of countless innocents.

her grandmothers mother you fucking prick, which
makes it her great grandmother, you're the lowest
fucken cunt!! along with the agents you surround
yourself with!

Justasking,
Did you get my point of why say something positive on Hungary and I will be blasted, like the post following mine was:
--
It's plain to see that viking is an Israel agent
along with his mossad scum.
Law at January 10, 2010 8:51 AM
--
Yes, of course we 'foreigners' must be very positive about Hungary and Hungarians when we post something on an English-language web-site on Hungarian politics today.
And it is a "foreigner's privilege" to get blasted by people who claim that they are 'Tiszta Magyar' and the only people who suffered under the Russian oppression.
Yes, it is very easy to be 'positive' in this environment of hatred.

Speaking of hate, Ehrenburg:

"The Germans are not human beings. From now on, the word 'German' is the most horrible curse. From now on, the word 'German' strikes us to the quick. We have nothing to discuss. We will not get excited. We will kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you have wasted that day ... If you cannot kill a German with a bullet, then kill him with your bayonet. If your part of the front is quiet and there is no fighting, then kill a German in the meantime ... If you have already killed a German, then kill another one - there is nothing more amusing to us than a heap of German corpses. Don't count the days, don't count the kilometers. Count only one thing: the number of Germans you have killed. Kill the Germans! ... - Kill the Germans! Kill!"

The same hate mentality guides them when they slaughter Palestinian children mercilessly. Hungarians do not want to end up like the Palestinians. The hate mongers who murder and steal call the Hungarians haters because they want to keep their own country for their own people. That is a problem only for those who want to oppress, exploit and steal everything from the Hungarians.

The real mystery is how Mark, who claim to live good in the US as a US citizen, can have a problem with Jews (because that is what he is aiming at, even if he forgot to spell it out), when Mark's own tax-dollar goes to support the same Jewish State of Israel that he means Hungary has so big problems with?
Obviously he is not a 'Real Hungarian Patriot', if he was he would take the next plane to Budapest and arm his anti-Jewish friends, right?
-
There is of course a reason why Mark's kind are pulling this anti-Jew story and that is part of the pro-Russian support they are establishing.
Jobbik is the most pro-Russian political party in Hungary, and they are proud of that!
Just go to their homepage and read up.
Then you ask your nearest Jobbik-guy when the Soviet WWII-memorial will be removed from the centre of Budapest?
-
That is why it is important for Mark's kind to always push their anti-Jewish agenda, it is part of their pro-Russian agenda.
They are not 'Hungarian Patriots', they are just 'Russian Fifth Column'

Viking Israel agent!!

Viking Israel agent!!
Law at January 10, 2010 11:04 AM
---
I have several times declared that I am against the Jewish State of Israel.
Mark has declared he is for it, with the logic argument 'it is better the Jews are in Israel than in Hungary'.
My anti-Zionist rhetoric is actually harder than that of Morvai, but this is not the correct site for that discussion. In difference from Mark and Morvai's kind I do not hate Jews.
-
If I am an agent for anything it would be a united Europe against the dominance of Russia, US and China over Europe.
To achieve this, we all need to forget what divide us and more look at what unites us. Still holding our differences high, as long it does not intrude on others.
The problem in Europe at the moment is the increasing power Put In's Russia is gaining. After Georgia, the Ukraine will follow and many European leaders are sadly willing to hand Ukraine back to Russia.
This should be an important issue for Hungary, being a neighbour to Ukraine and having Hungarian-speakers in Ukraine as a minority.
Jobbik and their kind is more playing into the hands of Put In's Russia and trying to wedge a rift between the Ukrainians and Hungarians to favour the Russian speaking minority in Ukraine.
Instead Hungary should work together with the Ukrainian-speaking majority against Russian influence.

Viking Israel agent!!

When will you dismantle the Soviet WWII-memorial in centre of Budapest?

Hi Law,
I think you are correct. I read recently how they organize their people to provoke and disrupt. This Jew pretending to be against Israel is just a façade. We have lots of Jews on this list but Bystander is the only honest Jew because he says that he is. The rest are ashamed of who they are. They must know why…
It is funny that Erik told me that I was “jewbaiting”. What about these Jews “jewbaiting”?
I probably would not mention them if they could just stop yapping about themselves :-)

Dear Mark
It’s recognized what slimy tactics these agents are
using. They honestly believe in silencing us however
it’s obvious the continuous exposure is making them
go into a frenzy of disgust.
@Israel agents
What are they paying you agents? Have you no heart?
Just disgusting blind ignorance and selling your
soul..

When will you dismantle the Soviet WWII-memorial in the centre of Budapest?
In the riots of 2006, during storming of the MTV-house, the Soviet WWII Memorial was also attacked, as can be seen by this picture (the last one #13):
-
http://hvg.hu/nagyitas/20090917_MTV-szekhaz_ostrom_nagyitas.aspx#kep13
-
I personally recognise some active Jobbik-members in that group. You can all see the difference in body physics between the pictures showing the avant-garde of the HVIM-guys (mostly made of by our normal collection of football hooligans and skin-heads) fighting it out with the Police and the more 'intellectual' guys trying to dismantling the Soviet WWII. The latter part is the organised Jobbik people on the place that lost control over the crowd, when Budahazy gave the march-order 'Let's storm the MTV-house!', so they retracted to something that was more fitting to their physics.
-
Today no Jobbik-person wants to speak about removing this Soviet WWII War Memorial.
Why?
Because Master Put In does not like it.
The Russians wants to keep their memories of their victories in WWII. Communists or not, is not important. It is the Russian Honour that is important. That is why it is so important for Mark's kind to make Communist=Jew, so Russian atrocities can be explained away as Jewish atrocities.

@Law:

The first really true sentence that you have produced in a long time here:

"... making them go into a frenzy of disgust"

Yes, you are a disgusting pile of feces, I am so happy that you are not Hungarian and never will be ...

BTW: Look up "disgust" in a dictionary, it perfectly discribes the feeling that normal people get in your presence or when they think about you!

’The premier said in an interview with state news agency MTI on Sunday that democratic parties will be allowed to gain an insight into Hungary's finances before the election, but this excludes Jobbik, which he does not consider to be a democratic force.’ ???
I don’t think the MSZP are a democratic force, either. The MSZP will be consigned to the dustbin at the next election (if not before).
PS
Sorry to interrupt your little tete-a-tete with this observation. You can now return to normal service with the usual, back-and-forth contradictions, concerning Jobbik
We are all now suitably bored out of our minds with the never ending schoolboy waffle!
I though it was the MSZP government that had caused so many problems for us in recent times?

Viking@You f---ing moron,always whining about Russia,what is your problem?They are no more corrupt than the US or Israel,but far more patriotic,they have things we all need,and we have things they need-why not follow Chinas example and make business not wars (the US way).I have many friends and contacts in Russia now,they are real Europeans and very astute-open up to them,open your eyes and stop believing the lies of those theiving jewish oligarchs.
I know I waste my time writing these lines but maybe your intellectual Hungarian wife can help you find the way.......

They are no more corrupt than the US or Israel,but far more patriotic,they have things we all need,and we have things they need-why not follow Chinas example and make business not wars (the US way).I have many friends and contacts in Russia now,they are real Europeans
Ricsi at January 10, 2010 3:58 PM
---
1) Thanks for confirming my statements on Jobbik's policy on Russia.
-
2) Yes Russia is a real peace-loving country;
a) Internet-attack against Estonia when they moved their Soviet WWII monument
.
b) The war against Georgia, they were waiting on the other side of the border and broke a lot of international conventions in their attack.
.
c) The Chechen wars have been the most cruel wars for a very long time and Russia has committed numerous atrocities and crimes against humanity
.
d) The increasing sable rattling over the Crimea and the Sevastopol Naval Base and trying to kill the Ukraine President. It is rather clear that Jobbik is betting on a division of Ukraine on an Eastern part belonging to Russia and a Western part that would be given to Hungary in some federation, but also with Russian domination, right?
-
3) What does Hungary have that Russia would be interested in?
Tomatoes?

Viking-You know I am too busy to stay here,and your zionist friends will try to track me again pathetically,but just once I will reply to you (even though you will never learn!)
1-Jobbik policy? When did I mention that?I gave you MY feelings.
2
a Estonia has a large Russian minority,insulting their sacrifice is not a good idea.like it or not 50 years of communism changed Estonias demography forever.
b Georgia was convinced by Rice that an illegal attack against UN protected Russian enclaves would go un-punished by Moscow-they started the war and they lost it despite US and Israeli training-get over it and learn never to provoke a sleeping bear.
c Chechnya was started by drunken Yeltsin taking advantage of US 'war on terror',terrible catastrophe for all,Putin finished it.-get over it.
d Jobbik have no interest in breaking up Ukraine or any other country-Kruschev gave away Crimea to Ukraine from Russia,most citizens are still Russian,interestingly now both contenders for PM are pro-Russian again,Timoshenko recently expressed her bitter disappointment over the west and its treatment of Ukraine at the start of this crisis-Moscow was the first to step in with a lifeline.Most Ukrainians,it is true do not want to re-join Russia but they are not so stupid as to want to be alienated neither.
e Think wider than just Tomatoes!

End of transmission,too much time wasted with idiots is of no value to me.

UN protected Russian enclaves
Ricsi at January 10, 2010 7:42 PM
---
UN never protected any enclaves in Georgia.
UNOMIG ( United Nations Observer Mission in Georgia) had less than 200 military observers checking that the different cease-fire agreements were held between November 1992 and 15 June 2009.
The Russians were the base in the different 'peace-keeping' forces that existed during this time.
The Russians were repeatedly violating their mandate, which the UN had noting to do with, and supplied arms and other logistics support to the rebels.
.
On 17 November 2008, the Abkhaz parliament ratified a bill which authorizes the construction of a Russian military base in Abkhazia in 2009
Since independence was recognised by Russia a series of controversial agreements were made between the Abkhazian government and the Russian Federation that leased or sold a number of key state assets and relinquished control over the borders
In May 2009 several opposition parties and war veteran groups protested against these deals complaining that they undermined state sovereignty and risked exchanging one colonial power (Georgia) with another (Russia)
.
That Put In has reviewed Russia's ambition to become a super-power and control the old countries from the Soviet time is something that should make its neighbours nervous.
Born in a country where you get the fear for the Russian Empire in your mother-milk then we have fought them since 1570 in various ways, I know that we need to prepare.

Chechnya was started by drunken Yeltsin taking advantage of US 'war on terror',terrible catastrophe for all,Putin finished it.-get over it
Ricsi at January 10, 2010 7:42 PM
---
Yes Putin finished it, but only after first re-starting it. That is way we have Chechen War #1 and War #2.
-
David Satter stated, during his testimony in the United States House of Representatives:
"With Yeltsin and his family facing possible criminal prosecution, however, a plan was put into motion to put in place a successor who would guarantee that Yeltsin and his family would be safe from prosecution and the criminal division of property in the country would not be subject to re-examination. For “Operation Successor” to succeed, however, it was necessary to have a massive provocation. In my view, this provocation was the bombing in September, 1999 of the apartment building bombings in Moscow, Buinaksk, and Volgodonsk. In the aftermath of these attacks, which claimed 300 lives, a new war was launched against Chechnya. Putin, the newly appointed prime minister who was put in charge of that war, achieved overnight popularity. Yeltsin resigned early. Putin was elected president and his first act was to guarantee Yeltsin immunity from prosecution"
-
Who thinks that the Russian leaders and the Cheka stopped being clever as they were in terrorising people just because they do no more call themselves 'Communists'?
Are 'Nationalists' stupid?

@When I commented on "us" talkind about you, I was refering to the post that was directly below mine from Jan 9 @ 8:41 pm and not the one from Jan 9 @ 11:11 pm.

I bet my bottom dollar that if you said something sincerely nice about Hungary, nobody would even think of calling you down, in any way shape or form. I mean from the regulars.

@ Mark

“I see the hate from you and those you embrace. Hungarians do not hate anyone but they want to be masters of their own country. “

No one except you, Law and your friends “hate people” – Justasking is an anomaly because she aligns herself with you but I don’t recall any of her postings that are full of hate for any minority group.

Anyone who disagrees with your political agenda is defined as the “The Enemy” What happened to freedom & other points of view?

Should JOBBIK, win a majority in the election then the Hungarian people have spoken and they should have the government they voted for. In fact, every Democratic country should have the party they vote for. So why don’t you let the Hungarian people speak for themselves – we will see what they want in the spring. If JOBBIK remains the choice of the fringe minority, accept it. Is that idea "hateful"?

The Stalinist monsters you mention ad nauseum were forced on the Hungarian people – they were not elected and thankfully they are all rotting in hell. The people you equate with them today, were elected.

@ Law

Hope your blood pressure is back to normal. Please read your posting again re the rape story. It is ambiguous who the victim was. If you really want to understand the dynamics of rape, read the 1975 book by Susan Brownmiller “Against our Will” and recommend it to your friend Zsuzsa. If she received proper counseling, she has already read it. Men who use language like you freak me out; sign of uncontrolled rag

@ Olga;

Nor, will you ever see me enter a post "full of hate towards a minority group" I have to admit, I do not hate anybody. Oh, I resent some people, situations and actions; but, not hate. I can not mentally tolerate the strees, that hating requires.

That being said, that does not mean that I do not take some pleasure, okay maybe a little more than "some", when "those people" that I resent, get whats coming to them. What comes around goes around, I have to believe that.

You never know when you “enter a post full of hate towards a minority group", by Olga’s twisted standards. If you were living in Hungary in a high crime minority area, according to Olga’s definition it would be an act of anti-minority hate if you put an extra lock on your door.
I have never advocated harming anyone innocent and as far as I know neither has anyone on the pro-Hungarian side. Hate is code word the Hungarian haters use when Hungarians resist the notion of being robbed and murdered at will. According to their definition of hate, those who object to Hungarian farmland sold to foreign “investors” at a fraction of its value are also guilty of hate. If you want what is good for Hungarians, it is hate in their twisted minds.
Take a look at their twisted terminology; the Communist MSZP with its horrible history of murdering hundreds of thousands of Hungarians is called Socialist while Jobbik with no blood on its hand is called far right, Nazi and such. Fidesz is called center-right and they do not put up a fuss because they are also the product of Communist indoctrination. They speak the same Communist lingo as the MSZP does. Fidesz actually far more Socialist than the Communist are but the Communists calling themselves Socialist made Socialist into a dirty word.
When is comes to dealing with Communists and their stooges, words lose their meanings. You had to see some of the Rakosi/Kadar era newspapers to understand their foul twisting of words.

far as I know neither has anyone on the pro-Hungarian side
Mark at January 11, 2010 4:21 PM
---
And Csintalan Sándor on HirTV was attacked by fellow Jews (read anti-Hungarian)?
According to Csintalan Sándor it was racists who attacked him and he works on your favourite TV-channel HirTV.
Grow up, read Law's links to his idols the 'Hungarian HighWay Men', there you have a list of what violent acts they support.
Or is Law and his highway-men suddenly not a 'pro-Hungarian'?
Otherwise your example equating 'minority=crime' is racist slur. Look it up.
Putting in an extra lock is not racism.
Grow up.

@ Mark

"According to their definition of hate, those who object to Hungarian farmland sold to foreign “investors” at a fraction of its value are also guilty of hate. If you want what is good for Hungarians, it is hate in their twisted minds."

Farmland? I don't recall anyone supporting farmland being sold to foreign investors. What on earth are you talking about?

Did you miss the part that I wrote about Hungarians ought to choose their own government? If JOBBIK is the choice then be it - if not, support whatever party Hungarians chose when the ballots are counted . That would be the Democratic way - nem?

Farkas Laszlo wrote many poignant opinions saying that Democracy is relatively new to Hungary and choosing the right party is a learning curve.

When Hungary was under Communist rule (the Russian Communists) "freedom" meant having a "Nyugati" government. Disagree?

Give me a straight answer for once. Describe the type of election you would like to see in Hungary in the spring. What political parties would you like to see on the ballots? What choices
would you like Hungarians to have on voting day?

No rhetoric please - name the parties and name the reasons (briefly!!!) why they should be a choice for the Hungarian voters. My question is based on the assumption that you would like the voters to have more than one party to choose from.

@Mark.
Pertinent, relevant, and interesting, questions here for a change.
In my humble opinion twenty years of democracy have not changed the attitudes/mindsets of politicians.
Gyurscany Ferenc proved to be a disaster as leader and Bajnai is no more than a 'caretaker' and is totally in the hands of IMF/EU bureaucrats.
The 'Austerity Package'we have in place is, to all intents and purposes, courtesy of those organizations.
The double-whammy is that Hungary needs a whole host of reforms introduced to enable it to compete on the world stage. And it needs to stamp out the endemic corruption that manifests itself on a daily basis: underlined by the never-ending scandals reported in newspapers, on radio and tv etc.
Farkas Laszlo believes it will be another generation before we see real change.
I say we need it now and we have to find the politicians from somewhere of the caliber that can deliver what most of us want. A level playing field, free from corruption, and an environment where business can flourish and people can find jobs without recourse to traveling abroad.

Kedves Tény,

I don't doubt that we need change now; indeed, we needed it yesterday!

It gives me no pleasure to note that the process of our national recovery will take perhaps another generation!

What I base that upon is the historical experiences of other nations who have experienced problems similiar to Hungary. Those that rise above their restrictions have something in common: there is in the people some strength that enables economic growth, not because of the politicians, but in spite of them! So it will have to be with us.

Whatever party takes over, I say God help them, as they will then have the problem of governance! Reducing corruption is not easy, and almost no nation has ever found it easy to eradicate. The more entrenched it gets, the harder it is to clean up. I've seen some nations where it is so far gone that we may be talking about 3+ generations for any real economic strength to emerge. I've seen places far more depressing than Hungary!

Like most any people who are now really struggling in the world, we are victims of our past, and we have to get over that. Our feudal, fascist and communist masters in the past all had their own reasons for not letting us stand up and be men who decide their own political and economic destiny.

For now, lets make sure our kids get a decent education. If we see good business opportunities, see if you can do it.

We will have to lead the leaders, because they don't know how to lead.

FL wrote:"there is in the people some strength that enables economic growth, not because of the politicians, but in spite of them! "

Exactly! I think I wrote something similsr somewhere on this site - and that is my hope for Hungary, because all the "regular people" that we meet and talk to try their best.

Let's hope it is good enough ...

Wolfi@What you fail to understand is that 'regular'people have been shafted by 'regular'politics in Hungary,hence the rise of a real alternative.

@ Teny

Did you mean to address Markr ?

I asked some questions and you more or less answered - Mark does not answer questions

FL, Wofli and Ricsi following your post made perfect sense. I understand what they are saying.

Ricsi - since you are a JOBBIK supporter, could you please answer the questions I posted?

To repeat: Describe the type of election you would like to see in Hungary in the spring. What political parties would you like to see on the ballots? What choices would you like Hungarians to have on voting day?

No rhetoric please - name the parties and name the reasons (briefly!!!) why they should be a choice for the Hungarian voters based on the assumption that you would like the voters to have more than one party to choose from.

My question relates to the upcoming election in 2010 -

@ all

I was a volunteer for a political party for approximately 6 years spent many hours campaigning, answering phones, organizing events, etc etc. I was "promoted" to the Executive which gave me very interesting insight about the political process which only meant I could work even more hours for free, late into the night sometimes.

I assume that every political party has volunteers who work tirelessly to have their party get as many votes as possible but depending on the political party, they use different methods to achieve their goals.

I am now wondering if Mark, Law and a few others are volunteers for JOBBIK. I don't think that in itself is a bad thing - however I was allowed to answer questions directly about the Liberal Party and if I didn't know the answer, I said : " I am sorry, not sure about the answer,but I can I find out and get back to you?" - but I always had an answer and either I, or a policy adviser got back to the person. I was never handed a script - just had to understand the agenda and how the party planned to put it into operation.

Mark is busy posting paragraphs that seem to come from a hand book. Could his assignment be to choose certain paragraphs and keep posting them? Could that explain why the answer often becomes a Non sequitur ?

If a question is posed to him that cannot possible be answered by one of the given paragraphs, then the volunteer has been given instructions to ignore the question?

I am not sure this is true. Is it possible?

Is it possible that some people are so dense that they do not realize that after accusing others of being haters, Nazis and other junk, their pretend questions are seen as nothing more than mindless provocations?

@ Mark

This was the question: (for the 3rd time)

Describe the type of election you would like to see in Hungary in the spring. What political parties would you like to see on the ballots? What choices
would you like Hungarians to have on voting day?

No rhetoric please - name the parties and name the reasons (briefly!!!) why they should be a choice for the Hungarian voters. My question is based on the assumption that you would like the voters to have more than one party to choose from."

I just know you will also explain how this answer somehow made sense and was not a non-sequitor "they do not realize that after accusing others of being haters, Nazis and other junk, their pretend questions are seen as nothing more than mindless provocations?"

Let me understand - my question went under the heading of hateful mindless provocation? How?
BTW, who accused you of being a Nazi?

Hello Tény and Farkas László,
On one hand, it will not take a generation to turn things around in Hungary but on the other hand, one generation may not be enough and Hungary may become a colony of hostile global interests. All depends if the Hungarian people have the courage to say no those who would enslave them.
The bloodsuckers have done a lot of damage to the US economy also and it is limping under the eight of useless wars and the thievery of such people as Bernie Madoff. Fortunately, for America, the economy has a lot of reserves and it will survive these attacks by those “Americans” whose do not care what happens to America.
Think of a large healthy dog with a lot of flees sucking her blood. It is not a pleasant picture but it demonstrates that while the large healthy dog is hurt by the bloodsuckers, she is not destroyed by them. Think of a tiny, skinny, half-starved dog kicked out by it its heartless owners and countless flees sucking her blood but not one decent mean in site. Before the tiny, skinny half-starved dog has any chance of survival, much less of becoming healthy and happy, she needs to rid herself of bloodsuckers.
Hungary is a country rich in natural resources, the Hungarian people are talented, well-educated and hard working. There is not a single reason why Hungary could not become a healthy and strong nation with enough courage to stop the bloodsuckers. Without the radical changes proposed by Jobbik, Hungary’s future looks very bleak.

Mark. I want to hear what each of the parties that will compete in the elections in the Spring have to say for themselves. Preferably in the form of a manifesto that would outline and confirm their policies.
I am not interested in the contradictions that regularly appear on this site between protagonists with different motives.
Millions of votes will be cast and, dare I say it,
many voters will put an X by the candidates names that promise most without really being able to
substantiate, or deliver, what they say.
PS@ Olga. Are you animal, vegetable, or mineral?
And. Do you have a crush on Mark...or something?

Tény,
Jobbik’s program is on-line. I hope you read it. I am not sure if Fidesz put their program on-line yet but they will probably do. We already know what to expect from the Communist MSZP/SZDSZ. They can make all the promises again but it will be the usual lies. Having said that, I do not believe that most voters will read each party’s program, compare them and make a decision on that. There will an awful lot of Communist MSZP/SZDSZ propaganda, paid by what they stole from the Hungarian taxpayers and Fidesz has their media also. Jobbik will have to rely on community meetings, internet communiqués, personal contacts and such. The least you should do is go to some of these community meetings, talk to them and see if the have horn like these ill-behaved foreign guests try to tell you. The candidate lists are already out and you should know who the candidates in your district are. Try to meet them all. Those that will not face the public have something to hide. Good luck.
I am afraid that with Olga, it has become a case of fatal attraction. Do you think that she will lay off if I tell her that I am a girl or come after me even more?

@Mark: "Jobbik’s program is on-line." Only the old EU program from March is online. The upcoming election program will only be available from the 16th.

I already saw a harsh, biased and very stupid critic of Jobbik’s program on NOL, the Communist rag.

@ Teny;

That was a funny comeback.

@ Mark;

I bet you'd make one butt ugly girl!

@justasking
Yes, very ugly but would I be ugly enough to deter Olga?

@ Mark;

I don't know? I don't think it would, Olgas' more interested on whats on the inside, so you may be in luck. I'll send up a Hail Mary for you though just incase.

@Mark,

You wrote "Think of a large healthy dog with a lot of flees sucking her blood. It is not a pleasant picture..." [no it is not a pleasant picture]

and "the Hungarian people are talented, well-educated and hard working."

Guess not *all* Hungarieans are well educated...
Mark, for next time, in between insults, if you're going to use it 20 times in a single paragraph, you might want to note that the word "flee" means to run away (like you do under questioning) and a "flea" is a small insect.

And cheers to Olga for attempting to get a straight answer out of a Jobbik-party-employee, or wannabee anway...

Bystander,

"Guess not *all* Hungarieans are well educated..."

I don't beleive Mark was educated in Hungary, but in the good 'ole U S of A. My Hungarian students are very contemptuous of American education, even those who have spent an exchange year studying there themselves. I try to persuade them that the Americans, and even the British have a different conception of education, but I don't think they believe me.

I'm feeling a little bad about making fun of Mark's American education... since A. I made a typo myself --"Hungariean"-- and B. it's never nice to ridicule the mentally challenged. I mean, after all it's not *their* fault!

@ Teny and Bystander

Tenny: Re: "Are you animal, vegetable, or mineral?"

None of the above. Just a woman in love. You guessed it.

@ Bystander

What can I say? I never expected to get a straight answer and I knew that. (It was a bet and I won) If my memory serves me right, you are Jewish and from the USA. Since you clearly understood what I was getting at, I think I shall now morph into a Jewish Israeli spy for MOSSAD. That's chance you take around here. No problem for me.

Wolfi went from Nazi to Jew to I am not sure what.

You must know I am not a JOBBIK fan - I know that if I asked either Vona or Morvai that question, I would have received an answer. Ditto for any other party leader. The questions I asked are the norm before an election -

BTW, when I discovered this website and I asked Farkas Laszlo background info about MSZP and FIDESZ, he gave me a very straight very concise history. That's FL for you

Here is a pretty good analysis of Jobbik's strategy.
Unfortunately for LawPaprika, Ricsi and other wannabe Hungarians it is in Hungarian

http://hvg.hu/print/20100111_jobbik_csendorseg.aspx
Maybe bobs could translate it in his bunker for you all

@Olga,
For the conspiracy-theorists around here, the idea that you are a "Communist Mossad spy" is probably next on the agenda!

I would love to see the Master Copy/Paste sheet these guys work from... they should take the time to read the whole thing first, so they can extemporize and go off-script, rather than slavishly copy and paste! It would help create a better illusion that there are actual *people* out there that understand the Jobbik "plan"!

@ Bystander

"I would love to see the Master Copy/Paste sheet these guys work from... " - you think along the same lines.

Very weird that Mark emerged within hours after someone from his State called "Tom" disappeared. Tom actually said he was leaving because someone posted the State he came from.For some reason that upset him. Although the philosophy is the same, and for all I know they are related, the writing style is different. Very strange indeed.

See you at the next Communist Mossad Spy luncheon

@Bystander
I use a spellchecker but unfortunately, it does not work when the misused word is spelled correctly. You are correct. Since you are the only honest Jew here, I take no offense and thank you for correcting my spelling error :-)
Are you sure that you are not getting answers from me? I believe you, Olga and some others are being dishonest because I provide a lot of answers, just not the answers you want.

@Olga
You are big a disappointment to me after you told us about your parents I consider patriotic Hungarians while you do not. I expected better from the child of Hungarians who escaped the Communists that still rule Hungary for a better life for themselves and for their children. They knew right from wrong. In my eyes, you shall not “morph into a Jewish Israeli spy for MOSSAD”. You are and will always be what Lenin called a “useful idiot”.
With all these answers, I do not see how you can claim that I do give you any.

@Houyhnhnm

Well, I read all of it (what a waste of time) and can save “LawPaprika, Ricsi and other wannabe Hungarians” a lot of time by telling them not bother because it is all garbage.

Do not take my word for it. I suggest a “wannabe Hungarian” analysis of Papp László Tamás and how much he rates with “wannabe Hungarians”.

(#20938) Balogh Gábor: Mit kezdjünk Papp László Tamással? - 2009. december 27. - 09:48
http://forum.portfolio.hu/print.php?t=6123

Balogh is fun reading unless one is blinded by hate of everything Hungarian as in case of Lacika…

Without the radical changes proposed by Jobbik, Hungary’s future looks very bleak.
Mark at January 12, 2010 4:30 PM
----
And those 'radical changes' were to replace the current 'jewish capital' with Russian and Chinese capital.
You just show your preference for those 2 countries that are raged by 'irresponsible capitalism' instead of foreign investments from West-Europe, where we have a long tradition of more responsible capitalism.
For a Yankee that is of course hard to understand, then in the US, capitalism is more 'free' and less regulated as in West-Europe.
My bet is that Hungarians prefer the West-European model, but need a political party that is clever enough to lead the way, at the same time needed changes are needed in the old welfare-model.
'More of everything' does not work any more and Hungary's voters will understand that one year later.

@ Mark

All I asked was what political party choices you would like to see for Hungarians on election day.

That's the question that was so outrageously anti-Hungarian that you never answered.

@Olga
I should not ignore you but your questions are so transparent. This time, I will answer your question but let’s make it educational and entertaining. You tell me which party you think I would like to see win and I tell you if you are right or wrong. To make it fair, you have three tries.

@ Mark

I actually re-read my posting to see if my question could possibly have been misunderstood . No way,no how. Very clear but I will rephrase it becauuse you misunderstood.

I know that you would like JOBBIK to win.

Example: I would like Canada to have the Liberal Party to be in power. However, I think the other major parties are honest and I am glad I have 3 strong choices - the other two major choices are the Conservatives and NDP.

The US has the Democrats and the Republicans - You are with me so far?

So on election day what choices would like Hungarians to have? JOBBIK is one and you would vote for them. Understood. - How many other parties should be on the ballot and which parties?

I was also wondering - question to everyone.

IF all the party leaders resigned from MSZP, and a new wave of people took over, would people have confidence is the party again? Is it the party platform or the leaders that are so odious?

@ Vandorlo - you refereed to "Liberals, Socialists and FIDESZ" - Who are the Liberals?

@Vándorló: "same, usual caterwauling" You said Jobbik didn't mourn the suicides and I showed you they did. It doesn't matter who reported it, I mean it does, why didn't the main stream media report it? As for the suicides, they are a lot easier to tally up than the 'six million' that you never for a minute doubt ever, so I am at a kind of loss to understand your hard nosed scrutiny all of a sudden. You "wouldn't have raised the point " my ass… Ignoring my answers is another issue. Haven't I told you that it is both unethical and illegal to publish suicides' names in Hungary? Doesn't that EXPLAIN why you won't find their names in the media? Your tactics remind me of http://bit.ly/6ml39D You also keep ignoring the dimension of this tragedy BEYOND the suicides: 600 hundred families were ruined financially Does it really surprise you that some of them saw suicide as their only way out? And Bajnai and Bajnai's father who were the managers of this ugly business came out of it stinking rich. They are corporate raiders for Christ's sake. Have you seen 'Wall Street?' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7upG01-XWbY 'Greed is good...' Well, that's how the Hajdú-Bét gig went down too.

@Olga: Who are the Liberals? Technically the SZDSZ, but these days these exist in name only as the liberals. They should more correctly entitle themselves 'The Unprincipled jump on any passing bandwagon freeloaders Party' (kb. az Erkölcstelen Potyázónak 'Beszáll a Buliba' Pártja; rövídetés EPBB Párt vagy becenevesen 'EPéseBB Párt').
In English the contrast in party names use to make far more sense: Liberal Democrats (SZDSZ) and Young Democrats (Fidesz). Fidesz, back in the 'Érik a Narancs' days (93-95) were a completely different party, as were the liberals.
In the media and elsewhere there are more people that would call themselves liberals, but who have, for one reason or another, become disgusted with the current political parties and float around in the netherworld of the undecided voters.

@Vándorló, more: Plus all this happened in an industry that threatens French interests … Bajnai, Medgyessy… there is a French Connection there -- yessir! It's not just Popeye Boyle -- French comrades and their Hungarian comrade Quislings… It's definitely not a pretty picture... Here are some quotes from Indymedia (and you like THEM, yes?) about the two scumbags: "Bajnai apja a gabonával tette ugyanazt, amit a Hajdú-Bét a libával, de az is törvényes volt… A valaha nyolcezer libát nevelő férfi ellen tavaly indított felszámolási eljárást az APEH, többek között azért, mert Vajdáék bt.-je adós maradt annak a bevételnek az áfájával, amit soha ki nem fizetett nekik az akkoriban Bajnai Gordon által vezetett Wallis baromfi-feldolgozó társasága, a 2004 óta felszámolás alatt lévő Hajdú-Bét… Csődbűntett gyanújával indított nyomozást a Hajdú-Bét Rt. gazdálkodásával összefüggésben a Bács-Kiskun Megyei Rendőr-főkapitányság," http://hungary.indymedia.org/node/11734 The Wallis scandal had also proved that Bajnai's a lousy manager and then he becomes PM. How do you explain that?

@Sophist: "Who are these hostiles? … Who is the Hungarian hating trash?" Do you want the whole list? Zuroff and the entire fifth column for example...

@Pávaszem: I accept your points and to be honest I find my own question gruesome and insensitive, it's just that part of me that needs facts and details that nags at me. I wasn't asking for names or personal details etc... just stories that clearly point to 'a suicide as a result of...'.
Unethical is a point of debate: "both unethical and illegal to publish suicides' names in Hungary?" That it is illegal I had no idea. Though w quick search using "öngyilkos lett" (committed suicide) would suggest I am not the only one that is not aware of this 'fact'.
Anyway, your points are taken.

@Olga: "barikad.hu… reported an Australian hate crime" Well, who else reported it? No one… It must have been the wrong 'hate crime...' (reminds me of 'thought crime') "[you]… admire Eva Balogh… [you] think [I] actually answer questions..." But you sure don't. I asked if you've actually met her because she is shockingly 'antisemitic' in private. A lot of apparatchiks BTW are. Have you heard of the Zuschlag 'blooper?' "Mivel a "viccelődés" képernyőre került, nem lehetett eltussolni…" http://➡.ws/鐭숏 And it's not just him and her. Go to any commie shindig and you'll hear Gypsy bastard this and Gypsy bastard that as soon as Orbán's name is mentioned. "you gravitate towards baricad.hu , Hungarian Ambience etc." You keep saying that and I keep saying I don't but I suppose you know better so knock yourself out "all you have to do around here is disagree with an agenda that's hurtful to minorities" SELECT minorities since the white minority in South Africa can obviously rot in hell as far as you're concerned. And why is it OK to hurt the MAJORITY anyway like you so smugly imply? "I gather [Budaházy] is not just an innocent bystander wrongly accused." Yeah, right, no one has ever accused anyone wrongly in Hungary... Or anywhere. Are you for real, BLONDIE? And what has he done anyway CRIMINAL? Or even just WRONG for Pete's sake... And police are dealing with THIS while all those people are murdered in the countryside? Döbbenet.

@ Vandorlo

Thanks for giving me a straight answer.

One more question for the day - no more.

A friend of ours works as an engineer is Saudi. He told us it's completely unacceptable and intrusive to ask his Saudi boss: "How are your wife and kids?"

Based on that, I am starting to think that it's unacceptable and intrusive to ask Hungarians which parties they would like to see on the ballots and I am offending people by asking.

True or false?

@Pávaszem: "...Bajnai's a lousy manager and then he becomes PM. How do you explain that?" Well, as we all know hungary is a land of opportunity when Tram Engineers can end up working in the Finance Ministry: http://www.parlament.hu/internet/plsql/ogy_kpv.kepv_adat?p_azon=k240
Makes perfect sense to me.

@Olga, more: "If there is no paper trail and can't prove it you don't have a case." You can still get scum like him if there is a will… If there is a will there is a way! How did Al Capone go to prison? Would you like to see a different type of justice system in Hungary? Yes. "So, what kind of Hungary do you think the 56 freedom fighters wanted to see?" A Marxist state like Canada or Sweden. Just like you, they knew nothing else. "Do you think JOBBIK represents the ideas they died for?" Few people actually died during those few days but anyway the answer is NO, JOBBIK is a little better informed.

Psz.,

" Do you want the whole list? Zuroff and the entire fifth column for example..."

Nah, just the ones posting to this site that Mark
shies away from.

@Olga: "it's unacceptable and intrusive to ask Hungarians which parties they would like to see on the ballots and I am offending people by asking.

True or false?"

Hungarians are pretty open about everything, whether you like it or not, but they are extremely cagey about politics. Elsewhere the question "How are you?" is not taken so literally and is generally not seen as an excuse to list one's ailments or have a description of how the change in the weather has induced 'forgetfulness, headaches and an increased tendency to procrastinate' (as is commonly believed here).

You are generally free to ask anything as long as you prepare yourself for the verbal onslaught to follow.

I find the best way is indirect questions. Up in District XII you generally only have to tell someone that you are heading into town (Districts VII, VIII, IX) to have them start off on one about gypsies, crime, MSZP, communists, neoliberals, traditional values... From there on it's just a case of floating the question of whether they think Morvai Krisztina will return to Hungary for the elections etc...
As with most things a direct question wouldn't tell you much anyway.

No, if you want to know something, ask away. Just stand well back and make sure there are seats to make yourself comfortable.

@ Vandorlo and Pavaszem:

Vandorlo: "You are generally free to ask anything as long as you prepare yourself for the verbal onslaught to follow. " - I accepted the fact that it's my tuition fee. Some cliche comes to mind about getting out of the kitchen if it's too hot or whatever. So far I am ok -

Pavaszem - Believe it or not, I really appreciate you answers.

Vandorlo and others like him more or less echo my political beliefs and values. Doesn't matter why, "it is what it is."

"Meeting" people like you is a real education. Having people cut and paste and repeating things ad nauseam , are at best annoying. Just because I don't like what you say does not mean I don't appreciate your responses. Moreover I understand your postings. So thank you.

Also makes sense now why you asked if I met Eva Balogh - I did not realise she was an anti-Semite in private but I don't know how you define the word.

The Jewish people I know oppose Israel's foreign policy - They want Israel to be a state but they would like Palestine to have the same opportunity and not live in squalor. My Jewish friends are obviously not antisemitic.

Therefore, I am not sure what you mean by Eva Balogh being one but if all it means is opposing Israel's MO in Palestine, then I guess I must be antisemitic as well.

According to some people, being anti-JOBBIK is anti-Hungarian. So if the Premise is "anyone who opposes Jobbik is anti-Hungarian" - "olga is Hungarian" then the conclusion is a given.

@ Pavaszem

Sorry , I meant "olga is anti-Jobbik"

Reading the stuff about Zuchlag you posted - slow going...

@Olga: "I don't know how you define the word" She ain't honest… She doesn't mean or even believe half of things she says. She says things because she thinks it's expedient or a winning bet or whatever her repulsive mind computes. She knows that the key to 'success' is submission to power -- a kind of Islam if you will only you submit to people instead of God. And she knows where the money and the power is. She still wants to become a politician, believe it or not. It has been a life long ambition of hers. People think she is Jewish but she actually ain't. She was born and raised in Pécs (Fünfkirchen) I remember her describing the Volksbund house there, inside and out, in great detail on HAL Forum. She is basically the same kind of scum Király Béla was. You've heard of him, right?

@Sophist: "Nah, just the ones posting" How about the ones just watching?

@Vándorló: "Makes perfect sense to me" Mondjuk a villamosmérnök inkább electrical engineer... Nem is hiszem, hogy lenne külön tram engineer, vagy akár szavunk rá. Ha lenne, most nem lenne ez a BKV cirkusz… :-))

My it staff forces us to use firewall software. The thing is that my google talk software does not perform correctly with it. How can I bypass the firewall to be able to chat with my friends?

Dear antivirus firewall,

It sounds like you are on a company owned computer, whose IT policies mandate a firewall. I don't think it proper on your part to disengage this protection without authorisation, as removing it could jeapordise company files and networks. Also, your internet usage is likely being monitored by somebody. Violating company policies on computer usage can get you disciplined and even fired.

I think it best that you consider getting your own computer.

Hi FL: All of these repeated posts about firewalls and servers, and stuff about 'I liked this page and have added it to my favourites' are actually just spam. They're there to either clog this website, or promote other websites.
Vandorlo would probably know more about this stuff. I wish it would go away.

Psz,

"How about the ones just watching?"

How do you know who's just watching???

Psz,

"You've heard of him, right?"

This Király Béla ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/politics-obituaries/5760915/Bela-Kiraly.html

This Király Béla ?
Sophist at January 16, 2010 7:14 PM
---
He seems to be that type of realistic military person that I instinctively get respect for.
No politic BS, just simple military truths
And it give light to my old question:
* Where there no Hungarian Statesmen 1945-1990?
-
I do not think that there were no Hungarians that tried to limit the impact of the Soviet occupation from 'the inside'.
As a military in the Communist Army Király Béla obviously tried to do what he could do and waited for the opportunity when he could do more, as in 1956
The after-world easily call these people 'traitors'

@ Pavaszem

Re; Budahazy – “Are you for real, BLONDIE? And what has he done anyway CRIMINAL?”

Various criminal charges are pending against him and I believe he was found guilty of some, not guilty of others.

Unless all the charges were fabricated and he is just a poor innocent framed victim then
please say so – is that what you believe?

BTW, I hope we can at least agree that criminal law is not really about guilt or innocence unless you are watching a TV show. I have no doubt that more guilty people are found “not guilty” based on reasonable doubt, than innocent people are wrongly accused (I am limiting this opinion to Democratic countries) I am glad that we have and hopefully you have such a justice system. If there is reasonable doubt in Budahazy’s case, he ought not be convicted.

About Eva Balogh being the same scum as Kiraly Bela.

Allow me the opportunity to call me a dumb blonde again (otherwise I would be lying) No, I have not heard of Kiraly Bela.

However, I read the website Sophist posted. Moreover, I googled his name and read two more websites. Obviously I am not getting the “scum” information. It must be on a Hungarian website. Willing to read it but I can’t search and read a bunch of websites because I am so bloody slow reading articles in Hungarian and you probably have the info at your fingertip.

Articles I read

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/world/europe/08kiraly.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/09/obitua

@Cináed: "All of these repeated posts… are actually just spam..." Sometimes spam, sometimes a 'nácivadász' rolling 'undesirable comments' out of sight… ;)

@Sophist: "How do you know who's just watching???" I am guessing from websites like http://www.ou.org/israel/5762/bias.htm Every embassy monitors local media including new media including comments too... "This Király Béla?" Yessir. Except the Telegraph doesn't know what it is talking about as usua, try ' Az 1945 nyarán zajló igazolási eljárás sikeréhez nem fűzhetett sok reményt, lévén egy fasiszta, egy náci és egy nyilas háborús bűnös kitüntetettje és a nyilas minisztérium alosztályvezetője. Tartott attól, - melynek a valószínűsége kézenfekvő volt -, hogy a sikertelen igazolási eljárást követően a Katonapolitikai Osztály letartóztatja és a népbíróság háborús bűnösként vonja felelősségre. Ezt megelőzően titokban belépett a Magyar Kommunista Pártba, majd levelet írt a Katonapolitikai Osztálynak. Ebben felajánlotta, hogy a háborús bűnösként nyugatról visszahozott Beregffy Károly volt tanára és minisztere ellen tanúvallomást tesz….' http://www.harcter.hu/news.php?readmore=1935

@ Olga: "is that what you believe? " He is basically a harmless prankster... "reasonable doubt" We don't have a common law system. ' Hungarian 'justice' is based on the Code civil (Napoleonic Code, Code civil des Français) in theory In practice Hungarian 'justice' is an impotent, corrupt mess. Unless politics are involved when the 'törvény vaskeze' is swift and efficient ( Judge: "And, what would you like us to convict him of, minister? :) "Eva Balogh being the same scum as Kiraly Bela" On second thought she is more like Jászi Oszkár… Now, HIM I am sure you heard of… "I am so bloody slow reading articles in Hungarian" I am glad you read Hungarian at all. So many of us completely forget… "the info at your fingertip" See above http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/world/europe/08kiraly.html I loved the correction part: "Correction: July 28, 2009, An obituary on July 8 about Gen. Bela K. Kiraly, the commander of the Hungarian resistance in the uprising of 1956, misstated the year that he was captured by Russian forces in World War II, misstated the location of an ammunition dump blown up by his resistance fighters, and included erroneous identifications from an associate for his survivors.

@Olga, continued: General Kiraly, then an officer in the Hungarian Army, was captured in 1945, not 1944, and the ammunition dump was near Budapest, not at the Austrian border. He is survived by a nephew, Attila Tevely, and Mr. Tevely’s children, not a son and a grandson. (The general often described Mr. Tevely as his grandson.)" :-))) The old faggot is lying from the grave… What an incredible BS artist!

@ Pavaszem

If there was an award for condescension, you would win first prize.

NO, I have not heard of Jaszi Oszkar either.
I just read about him - not planning on reading more. http://www.ece.ceu.hu/?q=node/15

I studied European History between 1500 -1915. It included the Hapbsburg Empire but the courses did not go into extensive details about Hungary. Not to the point where Jaszi Oszkar was mentioned.

One of your questions was "Do you believe that?" I believe history books and main stream media. I assume that every history book or text book I read was not based on lies.

Example: I haven't read a book yet that disagreed on why Henry VIII broke away from the Catholic Church although some books are much more sympathetic to him than others.

So please post a Hungarian article published by mainstream media as opposed to the Stormfront concerning the "scum Bela Kiraly." After I posted my reply, I read more articles on line because I was interested - no negative press.

Napoleonic Code dealt with civil law (it was enacted on March 21; it's my birthday in case you want to send a gift) - it's still the basis for laws in Quebec. If Hungary has a corrupt system, it's corrupt for other reasons, not because of its basis on Napoleonic code.

BTW - how do you come to your own conclusions about events? Assuming you were not and are not an omnipotent first hand witness to everything you write about , you must rely on books, media etc. like mere mortals like me.

@Olga: No, pavian isn't a "mere mortal" and he doesn't read newspapers or books, he gets his "Truth" directly from sources like kuruc, stormfront and hun-shittance, that's all he needs ...

Hi Pav: Perhaps you're right that the 'spam' posts are also an attempt to hide posts that someone doesn't want anyone else to read. Perhaps you're right about who that is. It could equally be the 'other side' though. Who knows? In any case, it's still spam.
-
This is a genuine question...I don't know much about Kiraly Bela, except that he was the commander of revolutionary forces in 1956 and went on to be a scholar. I'm intrigued to know why you regard him as 'scum'. Please understand, I'm not trying to bait you. Is the above information actually not correct?

Here is my two cents to those who are nipping at Pav and Bob’s heels. I do know as much as the next Hungarian about Hungarian history and my English is at upper technical (not literary but technical professional) level but these two humble me with their knowledge and mastery of Hungarian and English languages and Hungarian history. Without these two, the intellectual level of discussions would take a nosedive. You may be a Jobbik or Fidesz supporter, an Israeli agent working for the Communist MSZP and SZDSZ, or a Jew parading as German, Hungarian, Irish or Swedish, you better not chase these two away with your idiotic insults because you not only make complete fools of yourselves but you make this list a worthless waste of time.
I can appreciate an intellectually challenging opponent even if that person advocates things that I oppose. I am sorry to say that only one time did I come across one that would qualify on the “other side”. The pro-Communist, pro-Zionist group on this list does not have a single person who measures up. I would welcome such a person but...

Two cents, I would call it more like 2 forints...absolutely useless anymore. And for the last time, stop referring to yourself as Hungarian, you're not.

@ Mark

What now?

Both Cinaed and I asked Pavaszem about Kiraly - there is no confrontation and no trick questions.

You thought I was trying to trick you into God knows what, when I asked you what parties you would like on the ballot aside from the party you support. I should have asked Pavaszem - he would have given me a straight answer, something you are incapable of.

You are insulting him by defending him - he is quite capable of answering for himself, he is a big boy. Let him answer.

I can understand your protective attitude towards Law - he needs all the help he can get. Pavaszem seems quite ok on his own.

@MurkyMark:

Why don't you go and start your own site as I suggested to Lawless and Pavian - you could call it whatever you like.

You could even link to it from here just as Law regularly tries to lead unsuspecting visitors to hun-shittance or whatever ...

Then everybody would have the option of visiting Erik's site or yours or both ...

Good riddance!

@Olga
I was not talking about you. It is sad that you are so ready to fall on the sword for these despicable people. If they had their way, you would have never been born. It is never my intention to hurt you with my posts. Wake you up maybe but I do not see you as the enemy just someone very confused. These two (Pava & Bob) are very smart and you were right earlier when you said that you could learn from Pava. I read their posts with interest. They remind me of young Hungarian historians on ŐSÖK TERE. I am so surprised that they are so well informed and able to discern the truth after all these years of Communist lies and censorship. How do they know all those things and so well?

Nazi Israel will stop being a brutal, racist, terrorist state of war criminals and human right violators before one or two slimy Jews tell us who is Hungarian and who is not...

@ Mark

Allow me to rephrase my previous posting

I feel confident that Pavaszem is a big boy and regardless who asked him a question, he is quite cable of answering it all on his own.

Should someone attack him on a personal level, he is quite capable of defending himself.

I can understand that you defend people who you consider your friends. Some of those indeed may require help because they are unable to defend themselves without a meltdown.

He on the other hand has not demonstrated his need for protection.

How is that?

@ Mark;

I like to view Pava as a predatory type bird, a Falcon if you will. He circles around an area (politics.hu) looking for his prey (stupid comments from people who think they know everything) sees his prey and swoops down for the kill. (his biting, yet oh so accurate, postings, viewed by some as condenscending)

I have admitted to all and sundry, that I look forward to his posts. What I have not shared with anybody, okay maybe my Dad and another person, that I-breath-a-sigh-of-relief whenever I do not see my name attached to one of his posts.

I do not view your comments about Pava as defending him per se, more like an admiration of his knowledge and his ability to articulate in such a manner, that leaves his victums mouth agap.

I would say that he is in the top 3 people that I would sadly miss if he were too leave politics.hu.

Hi Z and Mark
Hope all is well appears you been busy with the
usual, nice to see you're keeping them in check..

Hope all is well appears you been busy with the
usual, nice to see you're keeping them in check.. I
agree Pav and Bob have some intriguing information
to share which is strategically delivered, not like
the Neo Liberals attempting to spread their half
truths.
I have been meaning to ask you Z, what is your view
now compared to when you first appeared on the
scene? What has been the biggest Aha experience you
have had?

@Lawless+Justwhining+MurkyMark*BastardBob:

Pleaaaaase start your own site as soon as possible - your idiotic postings are driving people away from this site - is that what you want really ?

There are so many Nazi sites around that you can connect to - I would like to have reasonable people back here that you can listen to ...

Pleas e go to hungo shittance or whatever!

Wolfi you're the biggest jerk on this site never
making any constructive comments

the biggest jerk on this site never making any constructive comments
Law at January 20, 2010 10:23 PM
---
If blaming Roma and Jews and Foreigners for all the ills of the world and general hate-mongering is 'constructive comments', you are The Most Constructive Commentator around.

@ Viking;

That Law with the line under his name, you just commented too, is not "Law", it's somebody else.

I honestly don't want to add fuel to this fire, but in regard to the 'fake Law' Vs the 'real Law'. If there is indeed someone impersonating Law, how can we work out which is which? I don't want to post responses to a 'fake', especially if this person is posting with the express purpose of making the real Law look bad, or to provoke resentment against him.
Zsuzsa, the 'Law with the underline' has posted a couple of comments, some of which could have been fake, but some which look very consistent with the older posts.
I don't like being in a position where I can't tell who the real poster is, so 'would the real slim shady please stand up'?
(sorry, I'm not really an eminem fan, but I couldn't resist the pop reference)

@ Cinaed;

I honestly don't know what to say. All I know is that, the Law that I have become familiar with over these months, would not have addressed me, nor have asked me a vague question like that. I will check it out and find out more. I am going by my gut feeling and that is, it ain't him.

Z

Law: Wolfi you're the biggest jerk on this site never
making any constructive comments
-
I have to second that. It nauseates me when he starts talking about Nazis. For one thing, I do not like Communists or Nazis. The Communists were and are a lot more harmful to Hungary and Hungarians then the Nazis but the Nazis were also a bad lot. Jobbik has nothing to do with Nazis and while Hungary was forced into an alliance with Nazi Germany, Hungarians were never Nazis either.
On the other hand, this weasel wolfie has all the makings of a Nazi. He could be a German Nazi if he was German or he could be a Jewish Nazi id he was Jewish. Today, only one state resembles Nazi Germany and that is Nazi Israel. That covers wolfie whichever way you look at it.

Zsuzsa, ok...that is a fair enough comment. I know that going back a few months, we were at a point where although we had different views on things, and different life experiences, we were able to get along reasonably well. This has degenerated quite a bit, which I really do regret. I would much prefer to return to mutual conversation, and so if there is a 'pretender' trying to polarise people (which is clearly what is happening) I'd like to find a way around it.
The one thing that has been really bugging me though is that Law posted stuff here in politics.hu which I had posted in the members only section on my own website. I know that nothing posted on the internet is really 'safe' and that is my risk, however, it still does violate my sense of trust and respect. This could not have been a 'fake' Law, as only the 'real' Law has access to my site.
So yeah, I hate this whole layers of suspicion thing.I do take posts at face value...analysing too much does your head in.
@ all: For what it's worth, I don't see the point of telling other posters to get lost or whatever else. We all have as much 'right' as each other to be here...meaning none. So to become so presumptuous as to start directing others as to what and where they should post seems a bit pointless. Ultimately, we all have the same ability to switch channels if we don't like the show, so as much as some of the posts grate on me, the same rule should apply to all.

Hi Cinaed
Let’s see why I have certain views towards people like you, I have observed either you are so close to your belief of trying to find an answer to your arguments that you are blinded by the false reality and are setting up an area of confusion for anybody that reads anything that is related to psychological or spiritual attainment, instead of writing to the point you end up waffling and confusing people to have a grey area of thinking, which is very misleading.
You go on talking about topics for hours, and for some often sound’s incredibly impressive. I have met people who seemed to live for the chance to impress others with their intellectual knowledge, yet these people never seemed to change. And I have met others who couldn’t have explained a spiritual principle if their lives depended on it, but they lived that principle every day.
What I am pointing out here is that the real key to progress is to realize that you cannot approach teaching like a consumer. You have rejected the approach, because you grew up in hellfire and brimstone Christianity and rejected the fear based, judgmental attitude that dominated part of your life. By jumping into the opposite extreme and reasoned that there is no right or wrong, there is no Truth! Implying that any teaching can be true as any other teaching.
cont

Therefore, you have rejected the concept of evil and therefore you reject the idea that there could be power elite who are deliberately and aggressively trying to deceive people and stop them from making real personal progress.
Just ignore me Cinaed because I have no time for deceitful people, it may seem harsh but this is my reality, leave me in peace I have no energy to direct your way.

Hi Law: Thanks for writing your views in such a way.As you have asked, I will not try to engage with you in future.Nevertheless, it makes me sad to see that you have chosen to see things as you have.I also think it is interesting that you have come to believe that I reject the concept of 'evil', that my views are based solely on a negative reaction to personal experience with religion, that my only aim in posting is to attempt to impress people and finally, that you are implying that I do not hold myself to principles and values in my own life.(correct me if I'm wrong)Why I find these things interesting is that I often speak of the very tendency you mention of reacting to extreme conditioning by going to the opposite extreme.In fact, if you go back through my posts, you will find many cases where I quote the Bible in positive ways, and refer to the teachings of various other faiths and philosophies as being useful in developing a view of the world.It is incorrect to say that I have rejected concepts of Truth and evil, although, I do think these things mean something different to you than they do me.I have never actually rejected spirituality either, though again my life's journey has evidently led me to different directions to you.You're right that I do think there are grey areas between right and wrong.I don't think everything is as simple as black and white.It is also true that I refer often to things I have learned through my formal education...(cont)

(cont)...but, I have never had the deliberate intention of trying to use my qualifications to intimidate or invalidate others' points of view.My education has been part of my journey, and I have, over time, changed my views on many things.One of the most important things I have learned is that sometimes even the things that we are most certain of can be wrong, and sometimes it takes only a tiny shift of perception to see this.That is not to say that Truth is not worth seeking, but I think we have to humbly acknowledge the fallibility of human thinking and that there will always be unintended consequences that accompany our actions.So to finish this up, here are some of my favourite quotes that have influenced my life.
"Truth is good and happiness is better, but still, without truth there can be no happiness."(Evtushenko)
"If a man begins with certainties, he will end in doubt, but if he be content to begin with doubt, he will end with certainties."(Sir Francis Bacon)
"Human life begins on the far side of despair."(Sartre)
"Be liberatd from your possessions, for with attachment comes grief."(Ip paraphrasing Buddhism)
"Truth, truth everywhere but not a drop to drink, you can think what you like, but it's not like what you think."(Sarah Blasko)
"OK, that's nice, logical and articulately argued...but what if you're wrong?"(me...to myself)

I forgot to include another quote that has had a profound impact on my life:
"Emancipation is about more than just self-reflection, we must also take action." (Habermas)

Hey Cinead

Nice to see you back - My favourite quote (I posted it before) is :

“Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.” Andre Gide

He also said: "The colour of truth is gray.”

I think both those quotes are very applicable to this website.

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but
the end thereof are the ways of death. (Proverbs
16:25)

So the Bible says ...

And Lawlless says: Jesus was not a Jew ...

And I say: WTF!

@ Wolfi

I never heard about Jesus not being a Jew - so I actually wrote a friend who has PHD in theology and teaches in a US Bible College ( He never tried to make me into a religious person, or force to believe in the Bible thus our friendship endures.)

Anyway, I actually kept his email . Unfortunately I don't really understand the answer because in order to understand it you have to have a basic Bible knowledge which I don't. This was the answer :

"Jesus? He was a Jew without any question whatsoever. The evidence is overwhelming. The first-century Jewish leaders would have loved to prove that he wasn’t a Jew. They crucified him partly because of the common understanding that he was the King of the Jews. When Pilate asked the crowds whether to release their king or Barabbas, and they shouted, “We have no king but Caesar!” It would have been far easier to say, “He isn’t even a Jew!” – because the Jews definitely had no love for the Roman occupation. To say he wasn’t a Jew is a ridiculous anti-Semitic claim."

What it be Cini dawg… "Kiraly Bela… why... 'scum'" You must have missed http://www.prherald.hu/cikk2.php?idc=20090709-154141 or http://www.harcter.hu/news.php?readmore=1935 He was a typical Hungarian Münchhausen, the type that does follow you through a revolving door and comes out ahead. He was a 'freedom fighter' like Elmyr de Hory was Modigliani. He was a completely spineless traitor, a turncoat and an opportunist that used and betrayed everyone he had ever met. He was a Fascist decorated by Mussolini, a Nazi decorated by Hitler, an Arrowcross official and officer who deserted his men and ran over to the Red Army like he always ran over shamelessly to the winning side regardless of who or what the winning side was. After WWII he joined the Stalinist army and actively participated in the liquidation of his ex comrades, mentors and teachers. "titokban belépett a Magyar Kommunista Pártba, majd levelet írt a Katonapolitikai Osztálynak. Ebben felajánlotta, hogy a háborús bűnösként nyugatról visszahozott Beregffy Károly volt tanára és minisztere ellen tanúvallomást tesz…." 2nd link above... Then he ran over to the Americans and betrayed his commie comrades. After he returned to Hungary he continued to betray everyone always managing to jump on the winning bandwagon of the moment. He was also a flaming faggot. So, you know what his "grandson" was, right? In his nineties he still needed it… Isn't that amazing?

@Olga: "I believe history books and main stream media..." ALL history books and main stream media? History books and main stream media from National Socialist Germany, Fascist Italy or Stalinist Russia too? Or would you just have believed those at the time if you would have lived there? (Which is my bet.) "no negative press…" No negative press because both he and his estate has a history of vigorously suing anyone that dares to call him what he is. They've lost every law suit but run their opponents ragged financially anyway so people keep mum. "If Hungary has a corrupt system, it's corrupt for other reasons, not because of its basis on Napoleonic code" We were discussing the assumption of innocence that doesn't apply to Code civil countries. In Hungary or France, or Quebec, you're guilty until you prove yourself innocent. "BTW - how do you come to your own conclusions about events?" Illuminatus sum :)) "assuming" you should never assume Pollyanna, I mean Olga. Don't you even know THAT? "I never heard about Jesus not being a Jew" How do you define 'a Jew' though? That's where the body is buried... ;)

Psz.,

"We were discussing the assumption of innocence that doesn't apply to Code civil countries"

Apparently, it does: "A common opinion held in countries based on common law is that in civil law or inquisitorial justice systems, the accused does not enjoy a presumption of innocence. This idea results from the fact that in some civil law nations, an investigating magistrate supervises police investigations in certain cases. To common law countries with adversarial systems, having an investigating magistrate appears to be hopelessly biased, since the judge should remain as impartial as possible. However the magistrate does not determine innocence or guilt and functions much as a grand jury does in common law nations. Courts are often organized in a manner that it will not be the same judge who will determine the guilt or innocence of the suspect."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_Innocence

France, Canada have the presumption of innocence written into their constitutions.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims, can argue among themselves.
Iran wants the latest 21st century nuclear technology to keep in place a particularly
biased interpretation of the Koran. Islamic fundamentalism spreads its message by blowing up innocent people.
The Americans are not guiltless either. Vietnam, Palestinian disquiet, Iraq, Afghanistan et al. The legacy the Americans have bestowed on these countries and their people is self-evident.
Economic poverty, disease, desolation and destruction.
Jesus was the Son of God . Or so I was told at school. Is God a Jew or an omnipotent supernatural being that we are asked to belive in as a matter of someone else's faith?
If Jesus was merely the son of Mary and Joseph then, by birth-right, he was a Jew.
Just my perspective. Could be wrong. I'M sure a lot of people waiting to tell me I am!

Kiraly Bela… why... 'scum'"
Pávaszem at February 5, 2010 10:22 AM
---
Pávaszem raises some interesting questions when you are an 'Hero' and when you a 'Traitor'
Pávaszem's opinion on Kiraly Bela is clear, but if we compare the criteria how Kiraly Bela is judged after, with one of the 'Great Hungarian Statesmen':
Count Andrássy de Csíkszentkirály et Krasznahorka (3 March 1823 – 18 February 1890)
Was not Andrássy more Habsburg than the Habsburg themselves:
1) He fathered the Habsburg Kaiser's only son
.
2) At the Berlin Congress in 1878 he was the principal Austrian plenipotentiary, and directed his efforts to diminish the gains of Russia and aggrandize the Dual Monarchy. The latter object was gained by the occupation of Bosnia-Herzegovina under a mandate from the congress.
This occupation was most unpopular in Hungary, both for financial reasons and because of the strong philo-Turk sentiments of the Magyars, but the result brilliantly justified Andrássy's policy. Nevertheless he felt constrained to bow before the storm, and placed his resignation in the emperor's hands (October 8, 1879). The day before his retirement he signed the offensive-defensive alliance with Germany, which placed the foreign relations of Austria-Hungary once more on a stable footing
-
So from going from a 'Freedom Hero' at the 1848-9 Hungarian Uprising against the Habsburgs, to become the most influential pro-Habsburg politician in his time
A 'Traitor' or not?
If we ask Kossuth we all know the answer

@ Pavaszem

At his point debating Kiraly is a waste of time. What is there to gain? I have to make choices about what I believe in historical fact and my choice is not the same as yours. Since I have no problems with your choice, I trust you don't have any with mine.

About Rudolf's paternity - today's science could once and for all could put the mystery to rest but no one cares.

Jesus being a Jew? Whatever. Just because every mainstream Christian religion believes he was, does not mean that it's not just another giant Conspiracy to fool the world.

Napoleonic Code - I lost interest. I understand the concept.

So how about getting back to the present? Two questions - not confrontational, requires straight answers.

(a)Why do you think the polls predict a 2/3rd win for
Orban? The question does not require a dissertation on him, just a straight answer of why he is leading in the polls.

I keep thinking (I posted this somewhere) that it's

1. lack of choices
2. The Devil you know etc.

(b) - At his point (not in the past) is Krisztina
Morvai and asset or a liability to JOBBIK?

Yes or No will do

A loose cannon always goes off when least expected and causes maximum damage.
Is Morvai the self-motivated power-seeking maniac some people make her out to be?
How many candidates will Jobbik put up at the next election?
Does Vona love Morvai in a political sense?
Is there enough political glue to hold them together - before and after the election?
You are asking questions all the time Olga.
I'm getting my own back...

@ Kerdesek

I don't have a huge hidden agenda - want to learn about PRESENT day Hungarian politics.

In order to do that I want to read opinions that are not one sided yet do not come from people who I consider "strange" - I am being polite.

Pavaszem does not come under the category of a person whose postings lead me to ask myself: "Oh my God, is he writing from a mental health centre?" -His ideas are interesting while being just about as diametrically opposed to my ideas as possible. That's what makes his postings interesting and informative from my subjective point of view.

So instead of talking in riddles - how about straight answers to those two questions? Your opening sentence can be interpreted two ways.

I really am interested in your answers.

@ Olga. You will never learn anything more than
your bankrupt personality allows.
I think you have let the mask "slip" with that last posting..and now the charade is over.
Please feel free to choose your friends and try to find out things that suit your own agenda by engaging in useless and endless piffle under the guise of wanting to learn more about Hungarian politics.
Sweet dreams my little nastiness of Canadian woodrot.

@ Keresek

Interesting, thought provoking posting. I admire your logical, well written response and your clear understanding of the answers to the questions I posed . Leaves no doubt about you as a person, nor your political leanings.

@keresek
And what a shame it is. From some of her earlier posts we know that her father was a decent patriotic Hungarian who escaped Communist oppression, the same Communist oppression that patriotic Hungarians are fighting today. He would be ashamed of her. Most Hungarian refugees would rather have their children not know or care about Hungary than serving the enemies of Hungary.

Kerdesek = Keresek = ?

Do we have a new anonymous jobo Nazi - or is it just a try for some of the old hands, using a new handle ?

http://kitorestura.hu/

A Kitörés Emléktúra célja, hogy minden év
februárjában megemlékezzen azokról a magyar és
német katonákról, akik a II. világháborúban két és
fél hónapon keresztül hõsiesen védték Budapestet -
és ezzel együtt egész Nyugat-Európát- a bolsevik
Vörös hadsereggel szemben.

Miután 1944. karácsonyán a szovjet ostromgyûrû
bezárult a vár körül, az "Európa Erõd" védõi a
harc nélküli lemészárlást jelentõ kapituláció
helyett -esküjükhöz híven- 1945. február 11-én a
kitörést választották…

Utunk során teljesítményünkkel tisztelgünk a hõsi
halottaknak és azoknak, akik mérhetetlen
szenvedések árán, de életben maradtak.

Oh no! Another impolite Nazi copying texts from neverwhere about the horrors of WW2 - yes we needed that here ...

Is this another of lawless's pseudonyms ?

Or are ther really so many right wing loonies around - not in Hungary I beleive ...

This seems to be an alternative to the http://dayofhonour.hu/ neo-Nazi celebrations which Jobbik likes more
The 60 km hike starts today in Budapest, I.ker. Kapisztrán tér - Magdolna torony and they walk to Szomor, Poharazó bar (against the Church)
Start: 17:30-19:00 hours
-
The 35 km hike starts from Florida saddle, Juniper bar between 22:00-02:00
-
The 3rd march starts also at the same place as the 1st at the same time, but it is only 25 km
-
All marches have the same goal:
Szomor, Poharazó bar (against the Church)
-
Just if someone would like to 'cheer them on...'
The marches are probably full of "blood-sucking foreigners" as Mark like to call them, so maybe Hungarians should show what they think?

I wish the marchers well, but it's too far from here to join - and it's snowing like mad ...

Not as bad though as in other parts of the world right now.

@Olga. I am genuinely sorry about my little rant
aimed at you. I wanted to make the point that you ask many questions to which posters oblige with answers.
You chose not to answer mine in a previous posting
and followed this up with a further insult by asking me another set of questions.
I too learn from all the contributors here about Hungarian politics.
It is rude in my opinion to keep asking why, what, when, where etc. You have to learn to read between the lines. I think so, anyway.
Mark is not the spokesman for Jobbik. And he is always quick to point this out. But we should expect that he is able to precis Jobbik's 88-page manifesto and give us the main thrust of what its about?
Similarly with Vándorló who, I presume, supports the MDF and Bokros.
But ultimately, it up to the individual, and we live in hope. Do we not?

@ Kerdesek;

Hats off to you, for having the balls, to apologise to somebody on this site, so publicly.

We all have at one time or another, gone too far; but, I have only seen 2 apologise extended to correct the possible slight. The 2 from me and now yours.

@Polite
Thank you for your post. A nation cannot prosper that does not honor those who fought and died in its defense. It is encouraging that after 65 years of Communist lies and propaganda; Hungarians are rediscovering and reevaluating their history from Hungarian perspective. Thanks again for taking the effort to post this very important notice. On February 11, we will be thinking of our heroes.

@Kerdesek
It is funny that you chastised Olga for asking a lot of questions while you keep asking the same question repeatedly. You need to read Jobbik’s program for yourself and not expect others to do for you what you should do for yourself. I also have a 7 page, 56-question document on Jobbik’s program but I am not sure if it is for anyone.
Again, understanding that I am not speaking for Jobbik, I would be willing to discuss specific portions of Jobbik’s program. I like the program and I can support it. However, there are basic inclinations in all of us that help us decide what we support and what we reject.
I like Jobbik’s strong pro-Hungarian stand and that makes me more sympathetic that someone who look at Hungary for something to exploit. Those should stay with the Communists.

@ Kerdesek

That's really nice of you.

So why you are apologizing, I will too.

I had no idea you were asking me those questions; I thought you were adding more questions to my questions to someone (certainly not me) who is knowledgeable about the situation.

Hungarians are rediscovering and reevaluating their history from Hungarian perspective. Thanks again for taking the effort to post this very important notice. On February 11, we will be thinking of our heroes.
Mark at February 6, 2010 5:38 PM
---
Read that again:
"reevaluating their history from Hungarian perspective"
Compare Hungary's action during WWII with Italy's
Italy switched side in the middle of the war, they played both teams.
Italy did not avoid further bloodshed, but they ended up on the winning side, Hungary, again on the loosing side.
If Admiral Horthy's alleged attempts to switch side during 1944 would have happened, Hungary would probably not have avoided Soviet occupation, as the Jalta-deal was drawn up, but a lot of Hungarian lives could have been saved
The same thing if Nazi-Germany had done the same thing with Budapest as they did with Paris, just left it without a fight, many Hungarian lives in Budapest, mostly civilians would have been spared
Ought this not be the re-evaluated Hungarian perspective, instead of Jobbik's pro-Nazi-German imported one, as Mark always pushes?
-
The end result would probably have been a less devastated Hungary and Hungary would maybe would have had a more Yugoslav development without any Soviet troops inside its borders after 1945?
.
We only know what happened and that was wrong and landed Hungary on the side of the losers, again. With some real leadership from Horthy, Hungary could have ended up with an easier period 1945-1990

@ Mark. I keep asking the same question because I do not get a proper answer. The questions are not simply directed at you. Ricsi and Law could supply an answer. Up to now they have declined.
It is not the whole manifesto anyway. As I said - just an outline will do. If people come up to you in the street and say: What are Jobbik and their policies about ? Would you give the same answer: read the M. for yourself.
Anyway all I was after is something like : over the next few years Jobbik intends to change things
with sweeping reforms in the areas of education, tax etc etc.
We may make a politician out of you one day.
And, I have read the manifesto now, anyway.
Morvai, Vona, and a third candidate will come and
speak in our town shortly. So I can get the rundown straight from the horses mouth.

@ Mark

I appreciate the fact that you only rant against me and always have something nice to say about my Dad. I want to give you an analogy and hopefully you will understand why I simply can't relate to your extreme feelings.

I know everyone on this website has lost loved ones, friends,aquaintences, co-workers to cancer. Often after a few years of painful treatments.

Some people discuss their pain and talk about their experiences because it is "therapy" for them , others talk about it to help fellow sufferers. Farraw Facett comes to mind of a public figure who chose to make her suffering public to help others in the same situation.

I also know people who you could have asked a day before they succumb to the disease "How are you?" and they would reply they were fine. They are private people.

So my Dad dealt with his "cancer" (living under Communism ) by not talking about it. I only heard disparaging remarks about some Canadian
Liberal or NDP Leader being "a Communist" around election times. Then (I wrote this before) when I went to Hungary prior to 1989, he didn't want me to go because my passport showed I was born in BP and he was convinced the evil Communists would not allow me to leave. When I asked him why on earth would they would want to keep me there, his only answer was that I didn't understand these evil bastards

As far as I am concerned the Communists & the Nazis of the past are dead - Every country, including Hungary should concentrate on the present

@Olga;

I do not think that we ever fully understand people of different generations, because we have not experienced what they have.

I have never had to run for my life, yet my parents did. I never had to watch what I said and to whom, for fear of having either a friend or a family member turning me in to the secret police, yet my parents did. I have never gone to bed scared, for fear my home may be bombed, yet my parents did. I have never lived in a country, where the Governments sole purpose, was to rob the country of it's riches and soul, while keeping it's people living in fear, yet my parents did.

I find it quite sad, that some people feel the need to dismiss others and their "rantings" as inappropriate and old fashioned. Encouraging them to "let go and look forward. The past is the past" While conveniently forgetting, that our parents and others for that matter, experienced this past for us, so that we could go about our charmed lives.

Maybe, just maybe, every-once in awhile, we should stop and listen to what people are not saying as opposed to what they are. Just a thought.

@Olga
I am sure that I would have like your father. What you call “you only rant against me” is not malicious against you; it is rather an expression of my disappointment. You may have noticed that the opinions of Hungarian haters on this list do not bother me and I never ever try to correct their delusions and accusations against me because I see them as harmful parasites. Most of these are ashamed of who they are, ashamed of their country and make up German, Swedish, Irish, Hungarian and other identities. They are nothing.
You are on the other hand a real person who is open and above board about who she is and speak with conviction about things, you do not understand. I believe that if you knew what you were doing, you would not do it.
It is unfortunate that your only source of information appears to be this and Balogh’s site. These sites have a very strong anti-Hungarian bias. I could not tell you how many times I heard the expression “Every country, including Hungary should concentrate on the present” from Balogh types. They say that but at the same time, they never miss an opportunity to talk of the past when it suits their anti-Hungarian hate propaganda. I really think that you should take some time and read this article Bayer Zsolt (Bayer is not a Jobbik supporter) or at least this paragraph:
http://www.magyarhirlap.hu/velemeny/verdij.html
És nyugodtan mondjuk ki, írjuk le ezredszer is: ha a náci bűnökre nincsen bocsánat, akkor a kommunista bűnökre sincs. Az nem lehetséges, hogy egyrészt mindig elmondják minekünk, hogy felejtsük már el végre a múltat, és ne hánytorgassuk, mi történt, majd ugyanazok elmondják azt is, hogy van a múltnak egy, egyetlenegy olyan része, amely nem felejthető, s amelyre folyton emlékezni kell. S akik ezt teszik, ezt mondják, azok egyben azt is mondják, azt sugallják, hogy emberiség elleni bűnt csak a zsidók ellen lehetséges elkövetni.

@Mark.
"ashamed of their country and make up German, Swedish, Irish, Hungarian and other identities. They are nothing."
The people you aim your wrath at are contributors
on this site. They are not representative of the nations you claim they belong to.
Neither, for that matter, are you the spokesman for Jobbik as you have already pointed out.
I believe you have your own agenda and Jobbik is the vehicle upon which you ride to make your ill-founded dreams come true.
Cry into Olga's beer if you wish.
This is a site for grown ups. When you emerge from the kindergarten you perhaps might like to join.

See murky tring to make a compliment to Olga:
"You are on the other hand a real person" - but wait, he goes on "speak with conviction about things, you do not understand"

Clever, isn't he ?

On the other hand I belong to this group "make up German, Swedish, Irish, Hungarian and other identities"

I wonder what he thinks I am (and Viking etc) ?

Must be difficult for his jobo peanut brain ...

Hotpaprika had it easy:
"Your days are numbered Zionist Devils!"

And pavian-szem has the perfect solution:
"we should hang ... on the first lámpavas"

What a nice bunch of loonies - glad that they aren't Hungarian, just "typical Western riff-raff"

“They are not representative of the nations you claim they belong to “

The point is that they are forging fake national identities while probing and questioning the identities of those who call them on their anti-Hungarian hate propaganda. I do not know which one is more underhanded, a Jew calling himself a German or whatever or a Muslim who questions the Hungarian identity of others while too ashamed to name his own country.
Most of that would be mute if they were not the ones who were calling others on the carpet for being “tiszta magyar”, not real Hungarian or whatever they dream up. What is fair for one is fair for the other.

The point is that they are forging fake national identities while probing and questioning the identities of those who call them on their anti-Hungarian hate propaganda
Mark at February 7, 2010 5:59 PM
---
When "anti-Hungarian hate propaganda" equals anti-Jobbik remarks, then the majority of Hungary are "anti-Hungarian"s
When you box in being 'Hungarian' into a party political context, then you diminish the definition of being 'Hungarian'
Hungarians, like all other people, have always had a difference of opinions regarding past, present and future, but they are still Hungarians
If they still want to be
If you want to read anti-Hungarian statements your comrades in arm - the Slovak Nationalists can give you a nice collection
In Slovakia many of us would be accused for being anti-Slovaks, which in this context is rather funny

@ Uberalles:

Everybody that posts on this site has an agenda. Singling out one person in particular, takes away the spirit of Freedom Of Speech, Freedom of Beliefs and Freedom of anything else for that matter. That is the point of this site, I can say that the world is ruled by dinosaurs and in my opinion, I would be right. It is also within your right to disagree.

Also, as soon as a person claims a nationality, you do become a representative of that nation, directly or indirectly, like it or not.

Now, your handle of Uberalles, does that not have a double meaning? One of those meaning being "above everything"? How telling.

@Wolfie;

You are a perfect example of people not listening to what a person is not saying.

The way I interpreted Marks post to Olga was, that as a person born Hungarian, he expected a little more loyalty from her, towards Hungary and the Hungarian people. He is surprised, as am I truth be told, how she can be so vocal about her criticism's of her own heritage to people, who in fact have malicious undertones towards her birth place. Again, this is how I interpreted what Mark was trying to convey.

Now, I personally believe in Freedom of Speech, where as you do not, you like to say you do; but, that's because your an idiot. You prounce around this site, saying what you want, when you want, and when others exercise that same right, you have the nerve to "ask" them to leave. That too me, in my eyes, makes you a Dictator.

@justasking:

Your thinking seems to be the same as those Nazi's:

Loyalty to Hungary must mean loyalty to Jobbik

"Hungary" is much bugger than yor whining and ranting about Trianon and Jewish commies and so on.

Mark is a total idiot when he's trying to provoke me - only my wife could tell him whether I'm a Jew (justjoking) - any way what's that to him ?

I say it again: To me it seems you and your kind are not interested in Hungary, maybe in revenge on people long dead (at least most of them) ...

Viking and Vándorlo and I have stronger ties to Hungary and really are intereted and try to do somethong for Hungary's future - living here ...

@Wolfie;

"Hungary is much bugger"??

Anyhow, YOU think that the only "true Hungarians" have to be Jobbik supporters. YOU.

Imagine, people on a Hungarian Political site supporting Political parties in Hungary. Not just the 2 main ones; but, the small fringe ones as well. Who da thunk?

What exactly do you do for Hungary anyway? It's more what Hungary does for you, so stop kidding yourself. Oh, and you get a warm fuzzy feeling inside because you happen to be sleeping with a local. Whoopty do!

That does not give you ANY RIGHT to tell what Hungarians can say, feel and think, although you feel it is your right. I wont even get into your comment about revenge from a man whose country is reminded of it everyday, and we'll just leave it at that shall we?

As for Viking, don't kid yourself, he's just buying his time and making the best of a other wise hopeless situation, until his in-laws pass on and his wife no longer has an excuse to stay in Hungary. So as far as I can tell, neither of you are doing shit for the country, it's all about your egos. Interested in Hungary, the hell you say, you know fuck all about it and it's people. Do something for Hungary's future, my ass.

What you know about "me and my kind", it that we all know that your a looser and you know, that we know, that you are a looser. That's all that you know and all that you will ever know.

@justasking:

Typical Freudian slip on my side, writing "bugger" instead of bigger (Probably thought about your Nazi friends buggerin' ...)

"Looser" on your side is also very nice ...

What did you think of when you wrote that ?

Please tell murkybrain to stop worrying if I'm a Jew or not - it destroys the rest of his few braincells ...

PS: I'm in this just for fun ...

As for Viking, don't kid yourself, he's just buying his time and making the best of a other wise hopeless situation, until his in-laws pass on and his wife no longer has an excuse to stay in Hungary. So as far as I can tell, neither of you are doing shit for the country
justasking at February 7, 2010 7:50 PM
---
Well mowing from Hungary was a thing we considered middle of the 90s, now the children are so big and today also my mother lives here
And the damned old folks seems to be more and more vital for every year, now it is actually over 18 months since we had to call after an ambulance for my mother, just to hear another doctor tell us she will die soon
Obviously you cannot trust doctors, at least not in Hungary
I am getting to old to change country again, so I will 99.9999% settle in a small farm on the Hungarian country-side when I stop starting new local businesses all the time that means I need to earn money abroad, because it is not easy to make any profit in Hungary
So, sorry justasking I will stay many years here and pay tax to strengthen the ego of whoever is politician here in Hungary
Strangely politicians seem to have their egos in their pockets
And whatever we do here, we do in Hungary and not in Canada

@Mark - I don't consider you Hungarian for the following reasons:
a. You do not live in Hungary nor pay taxes here (and probably never have)
b. You are not a stakeholder in either a business or political sense.
c. You espouse American values for Hungary.
d. You are not like most of the Hungarians I've met (ok, that's pretty subjective)

@justasking - apparently not claiming a nationality makes me representative of
a. Muslims
b Indian child molesters
c. Commie Jews
d. Turkish war criminals
e. Nazi Jews
f. ..............(to be filled in shortly).
I liked a lot of what you wrote at 9.54pm, and I thought it was very well put esp. what older generations had gone through.
I'd only add that people are often more resilient than we think. While we can acknowledge and be sympathetic to our parents plight, we need not relive them in our lifetime. We create our own destiny. Most of the comments about not being able to move on come from those who did not experience Trianon or Communism.
From my own experience, ie. born in one country and (by the stroke of a pen), finding myself a minority citizen of another country, it is not as hard as you think to move on. While I was too young to remember the mother country, the older ones tell me that living and making the best of the present was more important than trying to live in the past. Ex-Yugoslavs, Palestinians, Iraqis, Cambodians & Soviets all had to move on despite having experienced worse circumstances than Hungary.

@justasking: you interpreted my comment totally wrong. This is what I wrote:
"Your thinking seems to be the same as those Nazi's:

Loyalty to Hungary must mean loyalty to Jobbik"

Okay, the "'" is in the wrong spot, but you see the ":" that means this is the jobo Nazis' thinking - you should be more careful or be "justignoring" my postings ...

I wont even get into your comment about revenge from a man whose country is reminded of it everyday, and we'll just leave it at that shall we?
justasking at February 7, 2010 7:50 PM
----
So no sympathy for these good people from the German-Hungarian Friendship organisation then?
-
http://www.hunhir.hu/hir_kepek/nemet_magyar_baratsag.jpg
-
These guys never ever would use the word 'revenge', never

@Viking:

Thanks for that link - though I can't read http://www.hunhir.hu/, the pictures are enough ...

I especially liked this quote:

Ha Orbán Mussolini, akkor Vona mi lesz? Hitler... ?
2010. február 07. 18:43

Wolfie,
If you have missed this in German:
-
http://www.pesterlloyd.net/2010_04/04februar13/04februar13.html
-
"Ungarische Garde" bekennt sich jetzt offen als Neonazis
...
Auf der Webseite der Organisatoren tauchen auch die Namen von "Hüter Ungarische Garde Bewegung (Őrző Magyar Gárda Mozgalom)", und "Neue Ungarische Garde Bewegung (Új Magyar Gárda Mozgalom)" auf, beides Fortführungen der mittlerweile verbotenen "Ungarischen Garde". Damit haben sich auch die Maskeraden von Garde-Gründer und Jobbik-Chef Gábor Vona und der Jobbik-Europaabgeordneten Krisztina Morvai erledigt, die immer wieder betonten, dass Partei und Garde keine Neonazis seien, wie das in westlichen Medien immer dargestellt würde, sondern lediglich ein "unpolitischer" (Vona) Verein zum Schutz des Ungarntums

Thanks, Viking!

This is really outspoken - It's a pity not many people seem to buy the Pester Lloyd anymore.

If I were a German version of Lawless, I'd copy this here ...

@ George;

Lets just this out of the way first.
Ya think that you may have been a wee bit over the top arrogant, when you wrote to Mark, "who you considered to be Hungarian and who was not? Yeah, me too.
And that ridiculous "list of standards" that you measured peoples true nationalities by, sheer brilliance...NOT!
As I said before and I will say again, it is not for YOU to decide who is what and where; but, that person and the country involved. Okay, I'll throw in bloodlines too, what the Hell.
From what I have experienced, I found the people that tended not to, more like can't seem to move on, are in-fact the people that DID experience Trianon and/or Communism. Why I think some of these people are stuck in stop, is because their grief never really was acknowledged and nobody was ever held accountable for those actions towards Hungary. Simple as that.
And for that list of nationalities that you said have had to move on...How's that working for them?

@Wolfie;
Actually, I was emphasizing the 'o' in loser. Next time I'll add another 'o' and spell it like "Loooser".
As for me, misunderstanding what you were trying to say, nope, I got out of what you said, what you wanted me to get. And that was, people who are proud and patriot to their country, simply have too be stark raving mad kooks, that froth at the mouth and run around with their heads on fire. I can understand why you would be ultra sensitive to this; but, not everybody is going to take it to extremes.

@ Viking my pet;

"We do in Hungary and not in Canada" Really. What exactly DO YOU DO THERE that we do not do HERE? Live on a small farm? We have those. Open local businesses? We have that too. Call an ambulance for our elderly Mothers? Yup, unfortunately, I have done that as well, only mine did not survive.

You say that you are " 99.999% sure that you will always remain in Hungary, not daring to commit 100%...leaving open an exit strategy maybe, just in case?

You referred to "mowing from Hungary" Where were you mowing to...Austria per chance? You must have one big mower! Nudge nudge wink wink.

As for you kids being "so big" stop feeding them than.

Truth be told Viking, from somebody who has craved a full and rich life, (from what I gather)for himself in Hungary, I just wish you would be a little more respectful to that country and it's people on some of your posts.

@Justasking - OTT? you're forgetting your own comment's aren't you - Remember your remark on the world being ruled by dinosaurs. So, who are you to tell me how to judge whom I consider Hungarian? I've met thousands here, and I can think independently enough to form my own opinions. I gave you a list of my criteria which almost 10m people here meet.
Your brood of friends doesn't seem to be able to similarly enumerate a clear list - it always reverts back to their political views, which, on occasion seems to exclude Olga, despite her having possibly the strongest links.
Bloodlines? - On Thu., my Slovak-Hungarian student told me she isn't considered Hungarian enough over here. Based on what I've seen, experienced and read, I think I'll put values & attitudes ahead of bloodlines for now.
As for acknowledging their grief, and holding those responsible - I think the world still its hands full coming to terms with responsibility for the more recent events which affects the living. Unfortunately, that's how it is. Wallow or wade.
Oh yeah, all those nationalities I mentioned - I think they're wading, some albeit reluctantly.

@justasking - remember the old lady I mentioned, the one whose father was killed by Hungarian soldiers.
If you met her, would you acknowledge her grief and to similarly want to hold those responsible for her loss? I thought not.

Funny and pitiful that Curious George is ashamed to own up to his own country but not too shy about telling us who is not Hungarian.
I am absolutely, 100% convinced that he has very good reasons to be ashamed of what he is. He is also right that his own country would be closely examined and where called for criticized because that is what fairness calls for. I do not blame him for being a coward and hiding who he is. It is the right thing to do – for him.

You say that you are " 99.999% sure that you will always remain in Hungary, not daring to commit 100%...leaving open an exit strategy maybe, just in case?
...
Truth be told Viking, from somebody who has craved a full and rich life, (from what I gather)for himself in Hungary, I just wish you would be a little more respectful to that country and it's people on some of your posts
justasking at February 7, 2010 11:56 PM
---
The last part of the last % is if you move to Hungary, then I need of course re-think my end of live strategy
Much of my riches has been made out of Hungary, I have just imported it to Hungary and made some investments
Who should I be thankful to?
The guys that sold me too expensive some things, then I was just another stupid foreigner?
The people I give a chance to not be unemployed?
.
Maybe it should be the other way around, all so called Hungarians abroad should thank us "bloody foreigners" for moving to Hungary and keeping the fields open, so the country is nice when you pop over one time over every 3 years and complain how bad everything is Hungary to your poor cousins from the country-side?
-
I honour the people I need to honour
I also regard that the health-care is better in Hungary than in Sweden, but we also of course are in to the Hungarian way of securing a good resource of health-care by paying 'gratitude money' to the different föorvos, professors and specialists involved
The system with 'gratitude money' inside the health-care is older than 1947

@NBM - I told you earlier that I'm not ashamed. I'll happily tell people I meet where I'm from. The usual question is "what made you come to Hungary"? I tell them the truth.
The expats in my country (including the 10x as many Hungarian there) are free to comment on my country on their expat boards. You may like to criticize that too, however, it is of no relevance on politics.hu.
Having lived here, I'm free to (and able) to distinguish between Hungarians and Americans. I dont need a proud Canadian or American to tell me who is a Hungarian. My Slovak-Hungarian thesis student (whom I would consider Hungarian) can explain that to me better.

@Soph: "Apparently, it does..." Apparently it's very fuzzy especially in mixed jurisdictions such as '[Louisiana's…] legal system partially based on French and Spanish codes and ultimately Roman law,' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_law superseded by British common federal law "France, Canada have the presumption of innocence written into their constitutions." See above. Police will also not arrest you because they assume you're innocent… And, in France which is a totally brutal police state the flics will beat the crap out of you until you confess whatever they want you to confess and then some kangaroo court railroads you. Torture by cops and in prisons and concentration camps is much worse in the states though.

@Olga: "What is there to gain?" The truth… Far be it from me to try and make a horse drink but if you ever become interested in him again read one of his own books: Honvédségből néphadsereg, Paris, New Brunswick, 1986. or: Kornis Pál: Tanúként jelentkezem, Bp, Zrínyi kiadó, 1988; Kubinyi Ferenc: Fekete lexikon 1945-1956, Bp, Malomfalvi Kiadó, 1994. továbbá Kubinyi Az árulás anatómiáját, Magyar Fórum, 1992. április; Belügyminisztérium: Király-iratok. One of the letters btw that I linked http://tr.im/NbVE you to was by prof. Bokor, an MTA (Hungarian Academy of Sciences) member. Not main stream enough, huh? Main stream's got to be English... Do you realize how alien the Anglosphere's to us? You'll find more Hungarian history or literature translated to Chinese. "About Rudolf's paternity" Who? I was going to discuss his CIA involvement "Several days later, the brutal Soviet invasion rendered his task hopeless and, sure enough, landed him again on a Communist execution list. Kiraly and his staff -- with CIA assistance -- barely escaped to Austria, and then to the United States…" http://tr.im/NbVh too btw… He had apparently offered his ass and was recruited by the 'Company' before the 1956 riots started. But since nobody gives a hoot I am just going to drop it… Comparing him to B.Éva was wrong too..

@Olga, continued: They are both homosexual, tough as nails and extremely talented but BSE has never really betrayed her comrades like Király always had at the drop of a hat whenever it was in his own interest. I have btw just read the following comment of Éva's on that stomach turning blog of hers (pardon me while I puke): campaign-in-hungary-fidesz-style.html | "Once upon the time I had a roommate in college in Budapest. A girl who was born in Canada of Hungarian communist parents. She spoke Hungarian reasonably well and we were all very disappointed when it turned out that she considered herself to be a Canadian and not a Hungarian. Since then, of course, I have become a little bit more sophisticated. Indeed, she was a Canadian. She was born there. English was her first language and her first visit to Hungary was at the age of 20. Yes, she knew Hungarian but it wasn't her own country. It happens. Not the end of the world. That's why I do not see great harm in people changing language and culture. It happens. It's normal." Posted by: Eva S. Balogh | February 01, 2010 at 06:32 PM http://tr.im/NbSs She is talking about the worst Stalinist years in Hungary, the early to middle 1950's when Westerners were mistrusted with the most extreme prejudice. What exactly was this Canadian girl doing there? Interesting to say the least, yes? You know that Eva's a Canadian citizen, right? Despite having lived there less than 2 years as far as I know…

@Olga, more: Just another Commie from Canada? Or do you think she is special? "Jesus being a Jew? Whatever. Just because every mainstream Christian religion believes he was," You don't seem to get it, prekrasnaya. The pope, Benedetto, Benedictus PP. XVI is a Jew too, get it? You're confusing Hebrew with Jew, dear, and an Ashkenazi Zionist -- and I hate to tell you this -- is NEITHER. "Why do you think the polls predict a 2/3rd win for Orban?" To fool us. " At his point (not in the past) is Krisztina Morvai and asset or a liability to JOBBIK? Yes or No will do" Yes.

Psz,

"Police will also not arrest you because they assume you're innocent… "

Now you're confusing presumption of innocence with your rights against false arrest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_arrest

@Viking: "A 'Traitor' or not?" Black.

"The pope, Benedetto, Benedictus PP. XVI is a Jew too, get it? You're confusing Hebrew with Jew, dear, and an Ashkenazi Zionist -- and I hate to tell you this -- is NEITHER."

Yeah, Pavianszem can really throw it at you - what a pity nobody reads his loonie rantings, it would show the world how crazy things can get ...

WTF is the connection to Hungary there ?

She is talking about the worst Stalinist years in Hungary, the early to middle 1950's when Westerners were mistrusted with the most extreme prejudice. What exactly was this Canadian girl doing there? Interesting to say the least, yes? You know that Eva's a Canadian citizen, right? Despite having lived there less than 2 years as far as I know…
Pávaszem at February 8, 2010 10:42 AM
---
So, what are you saying
* Eva B is a 'Communist agent'?
* Eva B's room-mate was a 'Communist agent'?
* Eva B is not enough 'Hungarian'?
-
Given Ewa B's age, would this not more likely have happened in the first part of the 60s?
Not really "the worst Stalinist years in Hungary"?
-
If it now was, as you claim "the worst Stalinist years in Hungary, the early to middle 1950's" how would that reflected on this Canadian room-mate when she came back to Canada?

@Viking: "A 'Traitor' or not?" Black.
Pávaszem at February 8, 2010 10:51 AM
----
Anyone can help out translating that 'answer'?
"Black"?

@ George;

I never said that you can't judge who you consider Hungarian. I was just exercising my right to point out that the way you presented your "argument" on what standards are to be met before you offer you blessing, I found arrogant in the extreme. As for one of your students complaining that she was not considered "Hungarian enough", well, just tell her it's people like you she needs to thank for that. I, on the other hand, have no issue at all, accepting people as they present themselves, if that is what you want to be, all the power to ya.

As for the your comment of me rejecting this little old lady's right to grieve and desire to hold a person accountable for their actions. I gather your have arrived at this conclusion because the soldier happened to be Hungarian, correct? Well, lets just say this. No, you did not think, you just assumed I would deny her that right, and I wouldn't. It's not for me to judge or comment on what people are allowed to think or feel. I leave that to people like you.

@ Viking;

Over months of "listening" to your attempt at humour and failing miserably, you finally made me laugh out loud when I read your leaving that complete commitment (100%) open, just in case I move to Hungary.

When I say a person lives a rich full life, I do not consider monetary success in that equation. What I refer to are family and friends. Now, I am assuming this about you. Like me, you are surrounded by a loving family, good friends and healthy children. The only thing that you have and I no longer, is a Mother. That's what I meant.

As for who you should be thankful too for having achieved all that you have? You have to figure that out. Just realise, you did not do it all on your own, somebody was always in your corner.

I have nothing against foreigners moving to Hungary and carving out a successful life for themselves, quite the opposite, I say, hats off. I just do not agree with how you expect everybody to kiss your ass for gracing us with your presence.

AS for popping over to Hungary every 3 years. Nope. Usually every Spring and I quite enjoy myself truth be told, especially when money is no object. In a case like that, what can one complain about? No, it is my cousins, friends, Uncles and Aunts, who tell ME, how bad it is in Hungary. Imagine that. Oh, as well, their all from Pest and not the country side. Just FYI. Okay, maybe one or two friends from the country side.

@just whining:

Over months of "listening" to your attempt at humour and failing miserably, you finally made me laugh out loud when I read your new handle ...

Is that space menat to signify the space between your ears where your brain is supposed to be ?

PS : This posting is ecologically correct and consists of 100% recycled comments ...

@Justasking - who said anyone needed my blessing to be Hungarian? You wanna wave your maple leaf and claim to be Hungarian, go right on ahead, eh!
"well, just tell her it's people like you she needs to thank for that". That is a really, really stupid statement. That my student claimed she isn't considered Hungarian enough has nothing to do with me, but what she felt in her interactions with other Hungarians.
Your comment "their grief never really was acknowledged and nobody was ever held accountable for those actions" never seems to apply or be acknowledged when it comes to Hungarian actions towards others?
"It's not for me to judge or comment on what people are allowed to think or feel". Alas, but YOU DO! Your judgements and comments on Wolfi & Viking attest to that.

@Wolfie;

Actually that was a typo. My computer crashed and I had to re enter in my "handle".

I almost forgot. I actually thought of you the other day, I know! Anyhow, I was sent this "thought of the day" something or other, and as I read this certain one, YOU popped into my head. Let me share it with you.

" Some people are like slinkies-not really good for anything; but, they bring a smile to your face, when pushed down the stairs"

Law asked me awhile back what my "aha" moment was since joining this site, and that was it. Realizing that your one of the "slinkies" of the world.

Now, how should I address you in future, I mean you love giving people these little nicknames. Mine being "just whining, Laws "Lawless" and Mark "marky mark" or something stupid like that.

Think, think, think. Wolfie the slinkie...not bad. Slinky Wolfie...Naw. Wolf the Slink..Yes, that's the one. Wolfie the Slink is you new handle from me.

Warm Regards;

Justasking

The above comments were from me.

"bring a smile to your face, when pushed down the stairs" well at least that's a variation from "we should hang ... on the first lámpavas" but not better than "so go crawl back under the rock you came from"

Nazis are showing their faces (or should it be feces ?)

I'm really glad that all the "resident" jobos don't live in Hungary ...

I just do not agree with how you expect everybody to kiss your ass for gracing us with your presence
...
their all from Pest and not the country side. Just FYI. Okay, maybe one or two friends from the country side.
just asking at February 8, 2010 6:59 PM
----
Well, from the perspective of the Buda mountains, Pest *is* the country-side
(And that was supposed to be as much as an ass-hole comment it sounds as...)
I think we understand each other a bit better now, what you wrote about my family and the importance of my life companion, which happens to be my wife also, is totally true
The people who knows me in person know we are a team, we just do different things making us bigger together than the sum of the parts (or however you write that in Swenglish)

@ George;

Christ,get an extra shot of testosterone today or what?

How can you be so surprised, that I wrote that "us mere mortals" would interpret your "list" as something one must strive towards, before you grant your blessings? Who the hell makes a list like that anyway?

As for your student, the Slovak-Hungarian one, no that was not a stupid statement, it was a true one. It is exactly people like you, making ridiculous lists and demanding that people measure up or be denied, which causes individuals, like your student, feel uncomfortable and somehow lacking. So please, stop trying to push YOUR short comings onto me.

Hungary's action towards others? When have we ever had a conversation even remotely close to one like that on this site? NEVER! So stop pulling imaginary points out of your ass when we both know that your are just back peddling.

As for my comments/judgement on Viking and Wolfie the Slink, whats your point? Their all mine and mine alone. What, are you trying to tell me that I'm not entitled to them?

@ Wolfie the Slink;

"crawl back under the rock you came" Nah!

"Go to Hell and take a tooth brush" is better OR

"Please leave now and take the window...it's faster."

Now before I sign off for the night I want you to do something. Using your fore-finger and your thumb make an "L" shape....now put it up to your forehead. Goodnight!

I didn't want to write this - but the psychopaths seem to get even more crazy b efore the upcoming elections.

So to whom it may concern:

Most of those jobos are people whose (grand-)parents lost a lot, having to flee Hungary around 56. Instead of going to a shrink or whatever, they concentrate their hate on all those who dare voice diffrent opinions, it's a sad story.

There might even be ( no, I'm not going on, read what lawless wrote, besides "Viking's an Israel Agent!" and

"@Erik: You are a creepy untrustworthy traitor, even if you may hold a Hungarian citizenship it’s not worth a pinch of shit"
and

"this trauma and pain still appeared in Zsuzsa "

Or :

"He's just a house nigger, man, if he is not lying as usual about his Irish background."

If this is going to get worse - as I presume, someone should ask Erik to take measures maybe ...

Or if "free speech" means "free to say anything here" - I might have a few more stories to tell, just looking back at what the job Nazis have produced here over the years ...

Might be fun yet to remind them ...

@Justasking - testosterone? - looks like you've got multiple shots. And that seems to have affected your reading ability. Go re-read what you wrote, and my reply. Yes, I know your mouth/fingers shoot off faster than your brain, but what the hell, we'll bear with you.
No, you're wrong. Your comment was utterly stupid, because I was not assessing her, nor asking anyone to conform to my list. Hungarians over here have their own way of deciding who they think is Hungarian, and surprise, surprise, you may not be on THEIR list despite what YOU think.
Backpedalling? No, I'm just showing how biased you are when it comes to selective acceptance of responsibility, and exposing your double standards.
My point about Wolfi and Viking - you're as judgemental as they come, but choose not to see it. Now wipe that L from your forehead. Oh, sorry, I didn't realise it was a birthmark! My apologies.

@ Mark and Pavaszem

Sorry, I never got the impression that anyone hated his/her own country on this website.
But then again, I don’t see the world through your eyes. Concerning :” És nyugodtan mondjuk ki, írjuk le ezredszer is: ha a náci bűnökre nincsen bocsánat, akkor a kommunista bűnökre sincs.” - I can’t think of any person in their right mind who would disagree with that statement.

The only reason you consider me “Anti-Hungarian” is my total contempt for any ultra-right wing party. You define anti-Hungarian as anyone anti-JOBBIK You also stated you did not believe that the alleged 2/3rd FIDESZ supporters were anti-Hungarian. Kind of contradictory.

I always considered myself Hungarian – not a Hungarian-Canadian. A Hungarian who was brought up in Canada. This is who I am. It is not debatable and I don’t have to meet anyone’s standards and/or definition on this website.
Just like Wolfi will stay German and Viking will stay Swedish even if they live in Hungary for the next 100 years, I will always be Hungarian in this lifetime. (I may pick a warm climate to be born in the next time around.)

@ Pavaszem – you will be happy to know (you can feel ever so superior and I aim to please) that I found your last posting rather "confusing" - a polite word IMHO.( IE: Pope being Jewish, Hebrews, Eva Balogh's friend) Also want to thank you for the pithy and clear answers re (a) why 2/3rd are predicted to vote for Orban (b) if KM was a liability now or not

I made some enquiries at the tourist office in
Budapest about bus/train timetables and services etc to various destinations. A very kind lady informed me that x, y, z,an so on to the "countryside" was covered by x,y,z etc.
In other words everywhere outside of Budapest was referred to as, yes, you've guessed it -"the countryside"! Hmmmmmm

@ Pavaszem

Forgot: ..... "Main stream's got to be English... Do you realize how alien the Anglosphere's to us?

Ok, for someone who considers the English language alien, you have manged to somehow master this alien language. Good for you.

Now that you explained that you do not consider KM a liability to the party despite her rather less than professional language in the media, I am starting to understand the mindset of your target group.

I came realize that Law's comment "Fuck off and get your priorities right before pointing at a party that wants the best for it's people and nation. " is an excellent, well thought of political motivational speech that would convince most people to support said party.

Easy to see how this party knows what's best for its people and the nation. Hard to question such a convincing argument.

Good stuff.

"Why I think some of these people are stuck in stop, is because their grief never really was acknowledged and nobody was ever held accountable for those actions towards Hungary." (justasking)
-
I agree with this statement.I also think that where this is passed on to subsequent generations, it gets harder to resolve as it becomes part of their acculturation.One of the hardest lessons I had to learn in life though was that sometimes there is just no closure.Please do not read that as being dismissive or condescending, because it's not.After a lot of soul-searching I realised I had to come to terms with the fact that no-one would ever be held accountable for the crimes committed against me (and those around me).It's tragic to see Hungary seemingly eating itself inside because of this unrecognised and unresolved grief.I just also know that the answer is not going to be found in surrendering to hatred, bitterness and/or seeking revenge.

Pav: Actually, I was very interested in what you were saying about Kiraly, but I just haven't had the time lately to read or reply.While I think of it, your reference to John Brumby made me smile.I also found it interesting that Hungary is working to attract Indian students...many times I've heard very uncomplimentary comments about the link between Roma and Indians, and further that being a former British colony, a lot of the Indians I have known (especially those going for post-grad studies) are from the more priveleged classes, many of whom still exhibit some degree of latent 'Britishness'.
Not sure if you know this, but Victorians (the Australian state)in general are a bit weird.It's all that crappy weather and stale air.I do have my own thoughts on the Indian student issue, but perhaps this isn't the place.

re:national identity etc...that's a slippery one and I think ultimately comes down to what individuals make central to their identity development.To me personally, my nationality is not the primary identifier for my sense of identity, though for others from older and more contiguous cultures or those who feel a particular need to belong to a group, I can see why it might be.What I think is important is that nationality should not be the ONLY identifier, and that as I have said before we should see ourselves as human beings first and citizens somewhere after that.
Also, for me, ethnicity is not the same as nationality while for others, it is.So for Mark...my passport says 'Australian', I have Celtic ancestors on both sides.I relate to some Australian things but certainly not all.I also relate to my Celtic heritage to a degree, but again it's not everything.I also do not hate Hungary, in fact, the country and its people have had a profound impact on who I am.
-
Pav:"Do you realize how alien the Anglosphere's to us? You'll find more Hungarian history or literature translated to Chinese."Up until a month ago, I might not have noticed this so much, however, now that I'm living in the 'Sinosphere', I have been surpised by how many people who on finding out my wife is Hungarian say 'oh! I've been to Hungary', or 'we do a lot of business with Hungary', and so on as compared with in Aust where most people couldn't find Hungary on a map, or think the capital is Bucharest

@Olga: "You define anti-Hungarian as anyone anti-JOBBIK" Liar, liar, pants on fire… Stop making things up, Olga, please. "I always considered myself Hungarian" I am glad. Me too… "Just like Wolfi will stay German" He never said he is German. He said he grew up in Germany. ( Are you a Kraut, kiki? :) "Viking will stay Swedish" Viking doesn't want to be Swedish… He wannabe 'European' which is an even looser definition than 'German.' "you can feel ever so superior and I aim to please" I can't as long as you're so nice so cut it out, will you? "Pope being Jewish… confusing" 'Jew' simply means 'people of God.' That's all it means! Some Ashkenazim are the people of God, Zionists certainly are not. They are atheists like yourself. And, the people the unwashed masses call 'Jews' are Ashkenazim meaning German in Yiddish. They are NOT the biblical Hebrews descendants. To call them 'Jews' is like calling e Romane manusha Gypsies or Egyptians which is what Gypsy actually means:'fáraó népe' in old Hungarian. Still confused?

@Olga: "You define anti-Hungarian as anyone anti-JOBBIK" Liar, liar, pants on fire… Stop making things up, Olga, please. "I always considered myself Hungarian" I am glad. Me too… "Just like Wolfi will stay German" He never said he is German. He said he grew up in Germany. ( Are you a Kraut, kiki? :) "Viking will stay Swedish" Viking doesn't want to be Swedish… He wannabe 'European' which is an even looser definition than 'German.' "you can feel ever so superior and I aim to please" I can't as long as you're so nice so cut it out, will you? "Pope being Jewish… confusing" 'Jew' simply means 'people of God.' That's all it means! Some Ashkenazim are the people of God, Zionists certainly are not. They are atheists like yourself. And, the people the unwashed masses call 'Jews' are Ashkenazim meaning German in Yiddish. They are NOT the biblical Hebrews descendants. To call them 'Jews' is like calling e Romane manusha Gypsies or Egyptians which is what Gypsy actually means:'fáraó népe' in old Hungarian. Still confused?

@Olga, more: "Eva Balogh's friend" A Westerner in the 1950's couldn't even have _entered Hungary much less lived here unless he was a 'most trusted comrade' or the spouse or child of a most trusted comrade. It also happened just before Éva was dispatchd to Canada so they may have been in training together (?) which is my guess. "you have managed to somehow master this alien language" I had a deprived childhood… :-) seriously, I meant that not much Hungarian whatever is available in English. And the Anglos are just as ignorant about us as we are about them which is why people like Balogh, Király or Koestler could thrive. "Now that you explained that you do not consider KM a liability" I haven't 'explained' but you are right: I don't think she is a liability just the opposite. Without her calling a spade a spade Jobbik wouldn't be as popular as it is. "her rather less than professional language in the media," What are you talking about? " I am starting to understand the mindset of your target group" Mindset? Target group? Couldn't you wait with those drinks until you finished your comments, Olga? I mean _really… :-( "Easy to see how this party knows what's best for its people and the nation" It doesn't but everyone else is perceived to be worse...

@Sophist: "Now you're confusing presumption of innocence with your rights against false arrest" No, I am not. Are you pulling a Viking on me, Soph, opposing me just to oppose me?) I said that cops will only bust you if they think or know

@Sophist: "Now you're confusing presumption of innocence with your rights against false arrest" No, I am not. Are you pulling a Viking on me, Soph, opposing me just to oppose me? I said that cops will only bust you if they think or know you are guilty. If they think or know you're innocent they wouldn't bother, obviously. I'm just trying to point out the difference between real life and high minded theory here, Soph, which is something we should do daily like we brush our teeth.

@Viking: "Black?" You were supposed to say 'white,' Lapp… If I say up you say down. Whatever I say you oppose it talking out of your ass to add insult to injury. &, Comparing an idealistic revolutionary like Andrássy to a ruthless mercenary like Király is as ridiculous as you can get. Re. Andrássy also: "Not to be a [revolutionary] at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head." "Given Ewa B's age, would this not more likely have happened in the first part of the 60s" She left Hungary in 1956, you moron. Megint olyasmiről jár a szád mint a kacsa segge, amiről fingod sincs. "Eva B is a 'Communist agent?" I think she is an apparatchik, yes. "Eva B's room-mate was a Communist agent?" You bet. "Eva B is not enough Hungarian?" Why don't you ask her what she is? Like one Marxist asks the other… ;) "If it now was, as you claim the worst Stalinist years in Hungary, the early to middle 1950's" how would that reflected on this Canadian room-mate when she came back to Canada?" Good question. What do you think?

@slinky: "what a pity nobody reads his loonie rantings" Wishful thinking? Schizophrenia? Both? And then you comment on my every post… You're such a moron slinky C'est Mois Kraut edition… "WTF is the connection to Hungary there ?" :-) Like you know anything about Hungary… Hey! Can you tell us about your nick, 'wolfi?' How did you pick it? Do you feel like a wolf ? A little wolf: 'wolfie?' Why do you 'Jews' like that name so much? Jibes with your nature, yes?

Pav. I've often thought that the cops bust the ones that are least likely to be able to give them headaches later. They avoid the ones that will either a) make them accountable later or b) who might kill them and/or their family.
...but then, I'm a bit cynical about the police force in general.

pavian was really quick this time:

it only took him three days to answer, usually he spends about a week probably googling evrything so it appears that he's knowing all ...

In reality he's too stupid to know the difference between a Wolf or Wolfgang which are German names (very popular unti 1945, then having had a kind of renaissance much later) and wolfe or wolfie which is a typical Jewish name ...

I remember a nice kosher restaurant on Collins Ave. in Miami Beach, even bought a t-shirt with its address and a wolf on it in 1989 - last time we visited Miami though they were just taking the building down ...

Now let's wait how much time it takes pavian to find an "intelligent" answer to what I just wrote ...

PS: Since I wrote about my family here a long, long time ago I'm not going to repeat myself for a crazy like pavian ...

@ Pavaszem

Am I confused? Absolutely. You confuse me. I can’t figure out how someone seemingly as intelligent and smart as you are can write such shit. (My effort to stop being “nice” -that’s the first time you insulted me)

You define things as “The World according to Pavaszem” (plagarizing the phrase by changing the word from Garp)

No one can deny that Krisztina Morvai is a bright, personable and educated woman. Tell me another civilized country where politicians talk like that and their party would approve. So IMHO if Jobbik thinks she is an asset then without living in Hungary I conclude they are devoted fans of the Jerry Springer show . (I saw it was shown on Hungarian TV in BP) Did you ask me for clarification of what she said that was laughable but embarrassing to Hungary? Does the subject of the male anatomy come to mind? That’s just one of many comments that’s not exactly the Hillary Clinton school of political speeches.

“Jew means People of God” – Once again, I tend to accept dictionary definitions and I haven’t seen the Pavaszem dictonary on sale at Amazon yet. Maybe you could send me an autographed copy.

Re: “" I had a deprived childhood… :-) seriously, I meant that not much Hungarian whatever is available in English.” - did you take a course in how to write ambiguous sentences? - how about a straight answer? Where did you learn English? Agree that Anglos are ignorant about Hungarians. cont...

If Wolfi was born in Germany and was brought up in Germany, does that make him German according to the P.D.? (from here on referred to as the Pavaszem Dictonary) Ditto for Viking being Swedish?

While we are on the subject of the PD – what is the definition of anti-Hungarian?

Why the venom against Balogh? – if she got hit on the head and turned ultra-right wing, you would forgive her in a NY minute and embrace her views. So me thinks your definition of anti-Hungarian is someone who doesn’t subscribe to your agenda.

Name one person on this website who lives in Hungary, lives in the present, opposes your views yet you agree that s/he has a point and is not “the enemy”.

I interpreted the slogan advocating Hungary for Hungarians not as a slogan for xenophobia, racism and violence. I believed it was a demand for a political agenda that advocates policies that are in the best interest for the people living in Hungary. The easiest way I could describe that as “ Hungary according to the world of Farkas Laszlo”

On your posting to Sophist: “I said that cops will only bust you if they think or know you are guilty “ – Yeah, assumption of guilt based on racial profiling

In Toronto, they search cars for drugs and often find them. Defence lawyers make good money on having the charges dismissed by proving there was no reason to search the car. (My son was stopped by cops once in his life when he was a passenger in a very expensive car driven by his black friend. The car belonged to the friend’s Dad and the cops wanted to see the ownership. Hm.)

If I remember right, Wolfie's father was in the German Army (Wehrmacht, not SS) during WWII and Mark has done a big thing out of that for several weeks
Then we can all go and figure out which Nationality Wolfie can have
Chinese?

I apologize for only piping up here when the issue
of *Jews* comes up, but like I mentioned before,
though I have Hungarian blood, I am new to the
culture (sadly) and mostly just listen and learn
on these pages, I have little knowledge to bestow.

However, I just wanted to agree with Olga in
sharing my slight disappointment with Pavaszem's
false-facts on Jews:
Pava wrote:"Jew' simply means 'people of God.'
That's all it means! Some Ashkenazim are the
people of God, Zionists certainly are not. They
are atheists like yourself. And, the people the
unwashed masses call 'Jews' are Ashkenazim meaning
German in Yiddish. They are NOT the biblical
Hebrews descendants. "

It's so disappointing for me to be sitting at the
feet of you "scholars" taking all your Hungarian
facts for Gospel, only to find out as soon as I
actually *know* the topic, that the "facts" turn
to utter bullsh*t. Kinda like Crying Wolf (not
WolfIE!) it makes me now question ALL the "facts"
that spew from someone who took on the facade of
credibility prior... (though I disagree with his
Jobo-osity among other things!) Might wanna ease
back on the High N Highty tone unless you are SURE
you know of what u speak.

From Wikipedia:
Yehudim (plural of יהודי Yehudi) which is the
origin of the English word Jew. The Hebrew name is
derived from the region name Judah (Yehudah
יהודה). Originally the name referred to the
territory alloted to the tribe descended from
Judah the fourth son of the patriarch Jacob
(Numbers).

@Pávaszem
Good set of posts. Very funny. Right on about everyone, especially Comrade Balogh.
I should be nice to Balogh. Anyone reading her lunacy goes away supporting Jobbik or at least Fidesz.
Thanks!

@Bystander
Take a look in the mirror. If you see someone looking like Arafat, you are probably a “tiszta zsidó” because the Palestinians are mostly Semites and their features make them look like Jews to non-Jews. However, you probably will see someone entirely different because you are not a real biblical Jew. They are mostly gone. What we have is Ashkenazi and Khazar who decided to adopt Judaism because it fitted their savagery. Rákosi and Kun are typical Khazar. Actually, it is not fair to blame Jews, real, long gone Jews for the savagery of these people but it is difficult to get into all the details.
When I see the slur of calling someone called anti-Semite, I think that the person is anti-Palestinian. Those would be the Jews, who are not Semites of Nazi Israel.

@Bystander: Pávaszem makes an awful lot of stuff up out of god knows where. Ask him facts and figures, dates etc... he can find an answer for everything, though none of it makes any sense or fits any known recorded facts. Really, his nonsense is so outrageous I don't even bother anymore. I use to try to tie him down to reality a little, but he just doesn't care. He used to have a cohort called Tünde that did the same, but mainly on economics and education. They were a lovely couple.
Sometimes his stuff does get Borgesian, so I enjoy reading it.
Have you ever read the classic Karinthy Frigyes novel/autobiographical account "A Journey Round My Skull" ('Utazás a koponyám körül')? He account reming me of that: a patient undergoing brain surgery and relating in a stream of consciousness what flashes across his synapses. Classic book anyway, and very influential.

@ Mark

"Actually, it is not fair to blame Jews, real, long gone Jews for the savagery of these people but it is difficult to get into all the details."

Not fair to blame Jews? Why not? I think if it wasn't for "them" we would not be facing global warming nor tsunamis. I suspect Bystander had a hand in both issues although I have no proof but last I spoke to Oszkar Molnar he concurred.

Change in topics: I am going to post a link to the biggest Canadian scandal I can recall in recent history. Fresh off the press. How does it relate to you?

Read carefully the man's birth name and origin? You can now conclude that all Slovaks are mass murderers - maybe we can get a break from the Jewish and/or Communist topics

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/col-williams-is-a-man-no-one-really-knew/article1463964/

@Mark,

You embarrass yourself when you attempt to be a
"historian"... why don't you just let your
ventriloquist Ricsi speak for himself, you are a
shameful puppet, can't even get facts straight.

If you were to get data from other places than
Stormfront.org, you'd find some actual facts
occasionally. But you don't care about accuracy,
you go for QUANTITY. Just keep pasting over and
over your utter bullshit and you think it will
stick.

Just one example here: If you want me to rip you
a new academic a*shole here in public on the topic
I will embarrass you. Dare me. Get a real
education on topics you claim to be an expert on
before repeating Stormfront propaganda in public
to avoid the embarrassment you don't even
*realize* you are putting yourself thru -- in
public no less.

From Wikipedia (yes, I'm sure Wikipedia is a
"Zionist conspiracy"): Although the historical
record itself is very limited, there is a
consensus of cultural, linguistic, and genetic
evidence that the Ashkenazi Jewish population
originated in the Middle East. Jews have lived in
Germany, or "Ashkenaz", at least since the early
4th century.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazim

Read the part under "DNA", dipsh*t. You are not
an expert on EVERYTHING as much as you like to
represent yourself as such. And neither are your
"benefactors"/"puppetmasters". You should have
studied harder in school. Your dumbass nature is
clearer to the rest of us than you think.

@Bystander
You did not have to go into all this garbage and pile on all these insults. All you had to do is look into a mirror to see if you look anything like Arafat. If not, you are not a Semite.
Are you afraid to look into a mirror?

I'm his spitting image, dipsh*t!

Now explain why you're so ugly on the INSIDE.

This is the thanks I get for helping you discover your true roots :-)

Vandorlo wrote re: Pavaszem: "Sometimes his stuff
does get Borgesian, so I enjoy reading it.
Have you ever read the classic Karinthy Frigyes
novel/autobiographical account "A Journey Round My
Skull" ('Utazás a koponyám körül')?"

I definitely like what I've read from Borges...
will have to keep my eyes peeled for when Pavaszem
gets "Borgesian"... I can tell he's a bright
person at least (even when I disagree with him)
but, like I said, due to my lack of knowledge at
present on Hungarian issues/history, I'm not in a
position to evaluate (most of) his claims.

I haven't read "A Journey Round My Skull" but I've
seen "Being John Malkovich", where they go on
little trips inside that guy's head...

Mark@Bystander: "This is the thanks I get for helping you discover your true roots…" Hát igen - ütöd vered őket, hogy ember legyen belőlük, anyjuk helyett apjuk vagy és tessék, ez a hála (sigh) Vándorló is… Pitiful…Tünde kicked his ass -- I mean she made mincemeat out of him -- I kicked his ass, no use… he runs away and hides then comes back and spouts the same old Zionist crap like nothing happened. What's on the the deformed mind of an anglicized, double-renegade Irish shaygetz like Ván or LeBor (yo, Olga, look!) I wonder. Do they admire the Kikes because they do to the English what the English have done to everyone else? Are they grateful the Biboldos don't call them Pikey or insinuate that they multiply like rabbits? (Which in Vándorló's case is a little unfair since he won't multiply until he himself can get pregnant.) Someone help me out here. I am sure there are some straight and sane Paddies on this blog. There must be!

@Pávaszem: Q.E.D. (lásd fent!)

Cináed: "I do have my own thoughts on the Indian student issue, but perhaps this isn't the place." Why not? We both seem to have an Indian minority issue, why shouldn't we compare notes? "a bit cynical about the police force" & I probably wasn't cynical enough. I mean you really know them… So much for the assumption of innocence as well

@pavian:

Do you really believe you understand all those strange words it took you a whole week to copy from some crazy sources ?

Well, at least it keeps you occupied in your padded cell ...

Pav: In short, my view of the police training system in Hungary is an organisation that takes fresh-faced innocent young adults and teaches them how to fire guns swing clubs, take orders and don't ask questions. They go into their first post as ARMED fresh-faced, programmed innocent young adults, their first year in the force crushes their individuality and destroys their innocence...then they are trained to perfection!
You know, to me, all the talk of conspiracy in the police force is kind of redundant. There doesn't need to be conspiracy, the police force is following its own culture...no secret conspiracy required that's how it works.
The ones who get disillusioned either end up alcoholics, posted to really hardcore posts or disgraced...the really lucky ones get to teach, as long as they follow the programme. see above.

@Olga: "you... write such shit" But Olga, such language! I am shocked! "Tell me another civilized country where politicians talk like that and their party would approve" That's easy: Iran. (Again: talk like WHAT?) "the subject of the male anatomy" That was a smear, totally untrue: a New York Jew made it up. "not exactly the Hillary Clinton school of political speeches" Hillary Clinton? Are you kidding? "Jew means People of God – Once again, I tend to accept dictionary" Why don't you ask a priest or a minister? Unless you think a Mediterranean cookbook would be a more appropriate resource… "Where did you learn English?" In South Africa. "If Wolfi was born in Germany and was brought up in Germany, does that make him German according to the P.D.?" Didn't you just write: 'I always considered myself Hungarian – not a Hungarian-Canadian. A Hungarian who was brought up in Canada. This is who I am…' Wolfshit is German like you are Canadian or is that too logical for you? "Ditto for Viking" Allow me to not say what Viking is… "what is the definition of anti-Hungarian?" A certain perception of Hungarians which may be expressed as prejudice, hostility or mendacious, dehumanizing and/or demonizing allegations describing us as inferior, 'Nazis,' etc. more often than not to justify our victimization?

@Olga, more: "if [Balogh] got hit on the head and turned ultra-right wing," She would turn ultra right wing on a dime if 'ultra right wing' -- whatever that means -- seized power. Just like Király turned Fascist, Nazi and Communist whenever the wind blew that way: magyarul Balogh is Király is szélkakas. "me thinks your definition of anti-Hungarian is someone who doesn’t subscribe to your agenda." Which is your usual fiction. You really are incorrigible, aren't you? "Name one person on this website who lives in Hungary, lives in the present, opposes your views yet you agree that s/he has a point and is not the enemy" In Hungary Sophist and Erik when he is not whoring. And boy would you be surprised if I told you who I think may have a point not in Hungary.

@Bystander: "From Wikipedia … cultural, linguistic, and genetic evidence" Ah Jeez, you wikied. How clever. Anyway, it's a Shoa business type of 'evidence:' if you say it ain't so you go to prison for fifteen years or your life gets ruined some other way. Try Shlomo Sand's The Invention of the Jewish People (Verso Books, 2009). Dr. Sand is a professor of history at Tel Aviv University so he can say what ordinary mortal historians and geneticists or that chickenshit mercenary Jimmy Wales and his outfit dare not. "Originally the name referred to the territory alloted to the tribe descended from Judah the fourth son of the patriarch Jacob" What does an Ashkenaz have to do with that that a Mormon couldn't claim?

@ Wolfie;

Are you really that thick? Pava chews you up and spits you out on a regular basis, and you still try to take him on?

Seriously, quite while your ahead, your looking more and more desperate!

@Viking: "Wolfie's father was in the German Army" So what, Erhard Milch a Volljude was Generalfeldmarschall der Luftwaffe. The Nazis may have talked the talk but they sure hadn't walked the walk when it came to the Nuremberg laws. Slackers…

@wolfi: "googling evrything so it appears that he's knowing …" Even if I were 'googling evrything' I had to know what to search for you kissass moron. Go google for a brain… "the difference between a Wolf or Wolfgang" OK, since you're obviously as ignorant as you are dumb I will educate you a little but you'll have to thank me by saying 'Thank you Pávaszem, Sir!' Understood? And, since you're a Kraut you'll have to click your heels when you say it, capisce? OK, now let's see what part of 'wolf' you don't understand… OK, note first that I wasn't talking about the Christian name Wolfgang. I was wondering (Olga, did you catch that?) about the Jewish affinity with the first or family name WOLF in all its variations as in „Mischa“ Wolf http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markus_Wolf Are you with me so far you feeble minded ignorant fuck? German and Ashkenaz also overlap or at least seem to overlap since -- as we all know -- beside their 'German' identity and German sounding names such as Schwarz, Weiss, Klein, Epstein, Murmelstein, Goldman, Goldberg, Rosenberg, etc., Ashkenazim also have a Hebrew or 'real name' like David ben Avraham, Shmuel ben Aryeh or Rivka bat Gershon ve Hannah for a female. (Poor slob Krauts…) "[curse. Curse] was really quick this time:" I get busy, kiki… What do you do all day? Quick, say something really stupid!

@justasking:

You really believe that crap that pavian is spouting forth ?

Like his last statement about that general/marshla being a "Volljude" . First it's not true, second what has that to do with me ?

Is ir relevant whether I am half, one fourth or tero Jew ?

Do you jobos eally think a person is more or less important/ valuable/right depending on that ?

Pavian makes up most of his claims here - some stupid people seem to believe his rantings because they are full of "difficult " words or what ?

Like I wrote befor this jobo production is totally insignificant - but it's fun to read, sometimes ...

@wolfi, more: "a nice kosher restaurant on Collins Ave. in Miami Beach… bought a t-shirt with its address and a wolf on it" I bet you did. How did it compare to Wolf's Deli in Manhattan? I assume you visited both… Have you BTW seen anything in America that wasn't 'Jewish' while you visited your wife's mishpoche? Or was it yours?

Hey, pavian, you'll never get it.

I wrote that a long time ago and had been waiting for you to find it. Wondered what your remark on it would be ...

I've even been to the Jeweler's cafe in Manhattan on 42nd st (where all the Jewish businesses in Manhattan are), without being thrown out, because of my "German looks". Kosher food is not bad, it's just different from our pork tradition in the Black Forest.

I've already brought some real Black Forest ham to Jews and also to Muslims from Bosnia - many don't care for these stupid religious rules ...

PS: Your stupid lie about that Nazi Marshal still hasn't been explained by you.

@ Wolfie;

Stealing this from Elle, "I could give a fishy hi ho", what your make and model is, really it means nothing to me. What matters to me is what a person says, how they say it, what they are really trying to say. Your the one who keeps grouping everybody into a nice neat little package. The way I see it, I either agree with everything you say or you call me a "jobo" or something like that.

As for your question do I believe everything that Pava says, for the most part yes and if I'm unsure, I try to find out for myself. But usually he's spot on about history as well as the people on this site. I would give my left nut, if I had one, to find out how and where he gets all his info from. Why else do you think I "live" in fear of him??

I don't really, I'm just kidding.

@justasking:

If pavian told me "two and two makes four" I would first check it, because he is lying most of the time with his "historical facts" that he gets from kuruc or hungarianambiance and other "reliable sources".

He hasn't answered yet my question about that "VolljudeMilch where he obviously was lying, just look it up at wiki ...

BTW: That funny remark about me visiting "wolfie's restaurant in Miami Beach" i posted last year - and you should see the context:

Quote:... It's really funny: I once visited a very nice jewish (kosher) restaurant in Miami Beach called "wolfies", even bought a t-shirt...

"wolfie" is a typical jewish name, like wolfE...

But my father was a German soldier - not a Nazi by the way, so he gave me the name WOLF aka Farkas
wolfi at November 20, 2009 9:26 PM

End of Quote

PS: There is a thread somewhere on the net on "Wolfie's restaurant" and it having been torn down, it really was a Miami landmark ...

I love coming to this site to find that Pávaszem has written. He really is a clever, impressively informed chap – and devastatingly funny when he wants to be. Farkas Lászlo is also excellent reading. He is enormously generous, disarmingly so, even in quite unlikely directions. Justasking is really likeably naughty, a person totally devoted to having fun. Mark is super: my idea of the well-equipped, hard-hitting militant. It is easy to understand why they, and some others, write on this site: they are Hungarians who like to talk about Hungary. But I simply cannot understand the always-here, 24/7 pig-ignorant presences who never have anything to say, spend an inordinate amount of time spinning most unlikely biographies for themselves, and jeer at all things Hungarian, like dumb mutts on the lookout for a heel – any heel. What the dickens do these people want? Are they just without entré anywhere else because they are so objectionable, or are they sinister trolls whose job it is to discourage conversation among people well disposed to Hungary?

"what is the definition of anti-Hungarian?" A certain perception of Hungarians which may be expressed as prejudice, hostility or mendacious, dehumanizing and/or demonizing allegations describing us as inferior, 'Nazis,' etc. more often than not to justify our victimization?
Pávaszem at February 19, 2010 4:35 PM
----
Very simple:
a) Any person who adhere to the Nazi-ideology on other groups of people being 'sub-humans', I will call a 'Nazi' (in some form)
I do not care a shit if that person likes to call himself a 'Hungarian' or a 'Marsian' or a 'Viking', that person will still be a 'Nazi' for me, and I reserve me the right to call any such person for that
-
b) It is a bit hard for an outsider as myself, to feel that Hungarians in general have got a much harder deal than any other people in Europe
The situation for Hungarians in general is rather good. Most Hungarians could continue to live where they did before after WWII, other countries population had much higher degree of ethnic cleansing
Also compare with the break up of Yugoslavia and all bad things that happened there
In the beginning of the 90s it was a small risk for armed conflict between Hungary and Romania, but it was avoided and a treaty was signed that has been hated by the right-wingers ever since
Had a war been better?
Had that bought Hungarians a better status as 'victims'?

I shall now count the seconds before a troll knocks this post off the board:

I love coming to this site to find that Pávaszem has written. He really is a clever, impressively informed chap – and devastatingly funny when he wants to be. Farkas Lászlo is also excellent reading. He is enormously generous, disarmingly so, even in quite unlikely directions. Justasking is likeably naughty, a person totally devoted to having fun. Mark is super: my idea of the well-equipped, hard-hitting militant. It is easy to understand why they, and some others, write on this site: they are Hungarians who like to talk about Hungary. But I simply cannot understand the always-here, 24/7 pig-ignorant presences who never have anything to say, spend an inordinate amount of time spinning most unlikely biographies for themselves, and jeer at all things Hungarian, like mangey curs on the lookout for a heel – any heel.

@Elle: Mától az egyetlen elismert Jobbik (vagy Jobbik-Fidesz) komment droid díjat én osztom, azért tiszta szivemből gratulálok nekem. Abban teljesen biztos vagyok, hogy elégedettek legyenek veled. További sok sikert és csak így tovább!

Vándorolna el ez a ló:

‘… azért tiszta szivemből gratulálok nekem’.

Na, ez elhihető … a tisztaság kivételivel, mer oda nem lehet beilleszteni a szőrös, kiszáratt kis dobogód. (De bunko egy alak vagy! Viszont erröl nem tehetsz. Születési defektus.)

@ Pavaszem:

According to Elle, you are “ a clever, impressively informed chap – and devastatingly funny when he wants to be.”

Yes, you are such a darling – had me fooled all along. Here I thought you were full of hate and anger against certain segments of society and you were just being humorous. I can’t stop laughing.

Since I am up for more laughs – let’s just see:
"Tell me another civilized country where politicians talk like that and their party would approve" That's easy: Iran. (Again: talk like WHAT?) -

First of all, if a female used such language in Iran, she would not live to see the outrage the following day. If you didn’t understand the question (talk like What?) how did you manage to come up with the Iran answer? Oh, because you are “clever”

The male anatomy speech was a smear? I guess I missed the news when she denied making the statement about “tiny circumcised dicks” – She must be an honourable woman who refused an opportunity to make mince meat out of the “New York Jew” who accused her of using such vulgar language.

“Wolfshit is German like you are Canadian or is that too logical for you?” Perfectly logical. You caught me reading that Mediterranean cookbook.(wtf did comment that mean?) I just couldn’t fool you about my own background. Further proof of your cleverness.I completely understand your animosity towards Wolfi. Germans ought to be more like Ernst Zundel.
continued...

@ Pavaszem (cont)

. Such a piss off when they are not. Wolfi is nothing but a traitor to good ol’ Nazi Germany.

Your humour escaped me once again when you defined “anti-Hungarian”. If the majority of pro- Hungarians wanted an ultra-right wing party to lead the country, then they would vote for such a party. If the majority rejects such a party, does it follow that the majority is anti-Hungarian?

According to the world of Pavaszem, what conclusion does one come to about the will of the majority under the circumstances?

Re the people whose ideas you agree with : “ In Hungary Sophist and Erik when he is not whoring.” - As I mentioned, “whoring” is an outdated word thus the meaning is unclear to me. Could you be implying that Erik earns extra income by moonlighting ? Elle is correct, you are devastatingly funny..

Re: “ And boy would you be surprised if I told you who I think may have a point not in Hungary.” Not only clever but coy. Let me guess: David Duke, Ernst Zundel, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

BTW, You are wrong – nothing you write would "surprise me" - "astonished" is more accurate. That's why I always read your postings. I tell myself you can't come up with any more vile comments than whatever I am reading at the time. You are a true champion - always surpass your own record.

You learned English in S. Africa? You must pictures all over your house of Nelson Mandela.

Kedves Vándorló és Elle,

"Rezső Seress - Szeressük egymást gyerekek"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23i_pqSBuUE

Laci

@Olga:

Ernst Zündel will be out of prison om March first - the woman who was his lawyer and was also sentenced to priso is still behind bars (I hope) - these people are really the worst that Germany has procuced during the last 50 years:
http://blog.zeit.de/stoerungsmelder/2010/02/17/inhaftierter-holocaust-leugner-ernst-zundel-kommt-im-marz-frei_2702

It's kind of fummy that one of Zündel's "comrades" is Horst Mahler (a former lawyer) who was involved years ago with th left wing terrorists "Rote Armee Fraktion" who murdered several politicians and business people.

As a mathematician I know that it's not much differene between plus infinity and minus infinity, but it's still a strange "career".

Reminds me of the Hungarian guy killed in Bolivia (forgot his name) who was all over hungoshittance and also seems to have been a marxist once, before moving to the extreme right ...

@Farkas Lászlo

Laci, thank you for that loveable sound clip. (I hope you are someone’s dad: you are an effective but charming disciplinarian.)

But back to the Seress piece: My beloved little town, the hűség városa, had a private diner (in fact the host’s own tastefully biedermeier house) that served lunch at 2.30, exactly, on most Sundays, then entertained guests well into the evening. The star was the host himself, with a preference for ‘igazi magyar nóta’. His favourite was ‘Csak azt mondd meg, rózsám, mellyik úton mégy el. Felszántatom én azt …’. I now wonder if he modelled himself on Seress. Or perhaps this is/was the Hungarian songster tone. Lovely.

Just realised another of pavian's lies or maybe just stupid mistakes. He wrote:

"beside their 'German' identity and German sounding names such as Schwarz, Weiss ..."

Those "German names" for Jews were not handed down to them in Germany but in Austria (including Hungary ?) by the Emperor:

"Josef der ΙΙ. verpflichtete die Juden Österreichs mit dem Gesetz von 1787, deutsche Namensformen anzunehmen. Die althebräischen Namen erklärte er für ungültig. Die eigens für die Namensvergabe eingesetzte Kommission verlieh nach eigenem Ermessen Namen, die für die Juden teilweise beleidigend waren."

Sorry but couldn't find an English source. Anyway it's still funny - Does he really want to proof that I am a Jew, so what ?

I thought there were more important things in Hungary today ...

Elle,

You are my kind of gal!
Lets get together and smash some store windows of you know whom!!!

I'm on the road right now driving my 18 wheeler to Mormon country. I'll be back to you'll from the truck stop.

p.s.: I hope you are not a lesbo bitch...

Dear Elle,

Thanks, that is very sweet of you to say!

I feel that your diner host, like so many of the older Hungarians, was influenced by a 1930's era that was exceptional for composers like Seress and Kálmán Imre, and which also marked the widespread disemination of Hungarian music on grammophone records. I continue to marvel at how good those old 30's recordings sound today! That was also the beginning of interface between records and film music. Much of our old folk music was also recorded then, and it sounds as Hungarian as gulyás!

That was an era before music was "tricked out" with elctronic amplifiers, multi-track mixing and editing and synthesisers. The music on those old records thus sounds pure, authentic and has the immediacy of a live performance, which is what it actually was.

I shall now count the seconds before a troll knocks this post off the board
Elle at February 20, 2010 2:56 PM
----
Elle obviously thinks she, like Ricsi, is above other posters and should have a favourite 'right' to be on "the board"
Says a lot of her thinking and ideology

I shall now count the seconds before a troll knocks this post off the board
Elle at February 20, 2010 2:56 PM
-
What do you mean 'knocked off the board'. Do you mean deleted from the thread or just until someone else posts in the thread and their name goes to the top of the list on the homepage? If you mean the former, then the only times I see posts deleted or disallowed is when they are expressly written to incite actions of violence, or when they include too many links. I have seen all manner of posts allowed, even to the point of spam (bicycle ads, fake computer problem issues etc) just clogging the whole site. If you mean the latter, this is a forum, where the whole purpose is discussion. One person posts, another person posts in response and so on. The homepage reflects the most recent post so that everyone knows when someone has made a contribution.

@ Wolfi

I don't really follow Ernst Zundel's "career" - I am just glad he is no longer breahing Canada's air.

I remember the name Horst Mahler - he was disbarred in Germany so I am not sure how he could have defended him but honestly, I don't care.

I do remember a female who he was associated with - either his lawyer, girlfriend, publicist or whatever. All I can recall is that she had a child with a development disability and thought about Hitler's position on such children.

I believe he was sentenced for his crimes to the maximum allowed under German law, so no reason why he should not be released.

I gather if he continues his activities, new charges will be laid. Wish they would just ignore him because what he really wants is publicity.

@ Cinaed;

I didn't read/interpret Elle's post the way you did at all. I have yet to she her post something so inflammatory, that it would even need to be considered removed. Really, this girl is nobodies fool, to allow herself be cornered by one of her own posts.

As for the second interpretation of people commenting on what she had wrote, I understood it as she was wondering "how long" it was going to take IE: speed. I mean look at what she wrote and who she wrote about? Now, tell me that there's not a couple, three people who eyes would have automatically started twitching once they saw said post?

@ Elle;

Your response to Vandor, that got you a "Stearn look" from Laci Bacsi, was a brilliant play on words. Great sense of humour you have...quick, direct and cutting.

I think your positively fantastic!!

@justasking concerning Elle’s posting:

“But I simply cannot understand the always-here, 24/7 pig-ignorant presences who never have anything to say, spend an inordinate amount of time spinning most unlikely biographies for themselves, and jeer at all things Hungarian, like mangey curs on the lookout for a heel – any heel.”

Elle broke the KISS rule. Not sure if the phrase is well known or not, - it means “Keep It Simple Stupid” ; advice to people who write for any audience that’s not restricted to peers. IE: – Lawyers explaining a piece of legislation to non- lawyers, academics explaining their PHD thesis to laymen etc. ( In Elle’s case my definition of “peers “ = anyone on this website who shares Elle’s political beliefs.)

As much as I want to be a beneficiary of her pearls of wisdom, I simply don’t understand the paragraph and I sincerely want to.

You think even Cinaed had the wrong interpretation and he never breaks the KISS rule – easy to understand what he is writing, nothing ambiguous, no guessing involved.

I will try to interpret the paragraph and try to figure out Elle’s definitions as best I can – if I make a mistake mea culpa ; you two seem to understand each other so it may not be so confusing to you. I only wish I could be part of your “ women’s group” but alas it ain’t gonna happen.

Cont...

@ justasking (cont)

“Pig-ignorant”= anyone who does not agree with Elle’s political beliefs (oink oink)

“People who have nothing to say” = Ditto

“Spending inordinate time spinning most unlikely biographies” = Ditto

“Jeer at all things Hungarian” = Ditto
“Mangey curs” etc = Ditto

I do think this website would improve if the Enemy List (Enemy= anyone having different views from Elle) would be restricted to express their worthless opinions at random (worthless opinions = different than Elle’s)

Maybe Elle could even draw up a schedule so the “nothing to say” group could contribute on a rotation basis only,but not on the same day.

As Elle’s peers (defined previously) would be exempt from said restrictions,it would result in a plethora of postings that reflect Elle’s opinions and the "Real Hungarians" (definition: Those who hold Elle's opinions)

Hat biztos egy jobb vilag lenne.

@ Olga;
What an unfair attack on a person you obviously feel intimidated by. She does not demand that you conform to her views, she just asks that you defend yours and make sure that your facts are straight before you dare enter into a debate with her. If you can't, well then she tends to return your ass back to you, on a sliver platter. Big deal.
Aside from her being stupid smart, I get the impression that she does not suffer fools gladly. Combine that with a quick and sharp whit, these are just a couple of traits that I admire in a person. If that is what is required to be in this "women's group", then so be it and sign me up!! I ain't gonna apologise for that!
Regarding the "KISS-rule", yes, I am familiar with it, and am of the opinion that Elle has yet to violate it. How can you not understand the term "pig-ignorant"? It means when a person is talking out of their ass! Pretty straight forward to me! What, like there's not an abundance of it on this site? Seriously, she's just calling a spade a shovel...what of it? Further to that, it's usually in regards to people commenting on Hungary, it's history, culture, people etc and not peoples Political views.
As for Cinaed, if you re -read the post he directed to Elle, he was referring to her comment about getting "knocked off the comments board" and that was what I too had remarked upon. That's it, nothing more...just that.
Now, if you will excuse me, I have a Gold Metal Hockey Game to watch: Canada vs US

Zsuzsa...ok, fair enough. My question was genuine, I just didn't understand what she was getting at. I agree that I haven't seen Elle post anything that I would think was likely to be deleted. I do think she is cutting at times, but then, that's hardly unusual on these boards.

She does not demand that you conform to her views, she just asks that you defend yours and make sure that your facts are straight before you dare enter into a debate with her
...
Now, if you will excuse me, I have a Gold Metal Hockey Game to watch: Canada vs US
justasking at February 22, 2010 2:59 AM
---
How about Elle gets her fact straight, like it is 2010 now and not 2009 (regarding the EC investigation into MOL's special tax tariffs in Hungary (for some brackets MOL could actually have paid more), or that shares are traded freely and no mandatory registrations applies)?
-
Hmm, what was it - "Gold Metal"?
"Kanada-hatare tystade fansen"
is the headline in one of the big Swedish Sports papers, in English it means:
"Canada-hater silenced the fans"
Ryan Kesler who made the last goal (5-3 to the US) had before the match declared he "hated Canada"
How was it again with that 'Good Feeling' between the US and Canada that you like to claim exist?

@ Viking;
Top of the morning to ya!!! So lets go on and dissect your post shall we?

" She(Elle) should get her facts straight"

Really, and what facts are we talking about exactly? A link that was provided by Elle, from the EU's official website, that applied to a conversation that has been occurring on Politics.hu, over the span of several months. A conversation that I might add, started in 2009.
Yes, we now find ourselves in 2010. The Hungarian Government (MSZP) has yet to provide the information that has been requested of them, from the EU commission, in regards to the "sweetheart deal" that MOL received. A deal that lasts til 2020, if I remember correctly.
Please, remind me again, how Elle fits into all of this? You know, her incorrect facts and all??

Now, lets talk about Canada and the US Hockey game tonight. We (Canada), lost...3-5. SHIT!!! Why you ask??? Because, their goalie (US) was tight and did not let anything slip by him, no matter how brutal the onslaught was.
So now, we have to play an extra game against Germany, before we can play the Russians. Oh well, shit happens.
Now as for my "claim" of "good feelings" between Canada and the US. When have I ever said that? We tolerate the Americans, just like the rest of the World tolerates them. Americans are ignorant, arrogant, egotistical and stupid! That does not take away from the fact that it is nice to have them on your side, when shit hits the fan....Just ask Israel.

@ Cinaed,

Touche!

@JA - "How can you not understand the term "pig-ignorant"? It means when a person is talking out of their ass! Pretty straight forward to me!"

I'm just curious if you think the claim, that the Russians were planning to leave Hungary in 1956 (now that's devastatingly funny:)))) is
a. Pig-ignorant
b. Someone talking out of his ass
c. A historical fact
d. None of the above - you've done the research, but you can't comment because you live in fear of the 'hawk'?.

I know that what your answer will be - e (haven't done the research yet), right? Pretty straightforward to me!

Please, remind me again, how Elle fits into all of this? You know, her incorrect facts and all??
...
We tolerate the Americans, just like the rest of the World tolerates them
justasking at February 22, 2010 9:19 AM
---
Elle claimed some new info on the EU-web in another thread that it happened 'now' when it was actually one year old
I am the one who supplied to total story, as we know it today, that was my link
Elle's link are normally as good as Pav and his dogs, maybe a starting point, but definitely not the end point
-
Nice to hear we agree about "Americans", I just remembered another story before
You obviously did not hear Wolfie is on a plane over to help out the German team?
And whatever, if Canada manage both Germany and Russia, they will lose against Sweden in the end, so just learn to eat 'surströmming'

Shouldn’t all you schoolteachers be marking the
kids books. Instead of trying to impress each other
on polygon.hu?
Canada, US of A, ice hockey and so on
..yaaaawwnnn.
I’M off to download some old-fashioned
head-banging Deep Purple music.
PS. justasking
Don’t judge me too harshly. I did help
with suggestions for your bathroom.
More women on this site – the better!
(Leastways for me anyway) I part my
hair straight down the middle.

@ Georgie,

First off, I said a "Falcon" and not a Hawk.
Secondly, Pava did explain the comment about the Russians scheduled to leave, I believe it was too have happened in 1957; but, off the top of my head, I can not remember all the details, Farkas Laci would know. I just remember that it caused quite a stir here on Politics when that little bit of info was dropped. I know, I was on the phone to my Dad, asking if he knew about any of it. There was a link "Remembering 56' here on Politics and I'm pretty sure it's on there.
So to answer your multiple choice question...when in doubt pick "C". So much for being pretty straight forward huh?

@ Viking;

It's always right out of the gate with you isn't it? I can't even have a bloody cup of coffee first!

It did not happen the way you described. A conversation was going on about MOL and Mako on another thread. Elle, read an article off the EU web site that happen to catch her eye, because it fell in line on what we all were talking about that day on Politics, she thought we would find it interesting and posted it. That's it, that's all.

As for Wolfie, helping out the German team...good. I would hardly call him a good luck charm.

As for Canada vs Sweden...sorry, but they (Sweden)do not strike fear in the hearts of Canadians when it comes to hockey! If anything, we'll just wipe the floor with you the way we did Norway. Hell, I'll even buy you an official Canadian Olympic toque to wear. What's your address?

@Justwastingourtime: "Pava did explain the comment about the Russians scheduled to leave, I believe it was too have happened in 1957; but, off the top of my head, I can not remember all the details, Farkas Laci would know."
Pávaszem didn't explain anything. He made a claim and then provided no proof or sources. He tried to side step by asking for the tape of Gerő's speech, when I provided it he claimed there was another one and made up dates no-one else concurs with. Laci was also interested to know Pávaszem's sources as he had never heard of such a proposition or theory. We are still waiting.
Páva's basic claim is that Hungary was occupied merely as a logistic supply route to Austria. Now a bit of geography would tell you you don't need to occupy Hungary at all to do that, there was Czechoslovakia back then that would give you the land bridge you needed.
Such a waste of space and energy you losers.

Just to clarify a few things, Soviet forces were allowed to occupy Hungary and part of Austria by agreement of the allies.Austria was temporary until May 15,1955. The original treaty allowed for the stationing of Soviet forces for as long as Austria remained occupied,so technically 1955 should also have seen Soviet troops leave Hungary,and indeed they committed themselves to an actual withdrawal date,at the very latest December 31st,1955. Unfortunately the communists introduced the Warsaw Pact treaty in retaliation to the formation of NATO and a new German Bundeswher,a clause of the new treaty called for Soviet forces to protect the borders of member nations,the Warsaw Pact treaty was concluded on May 14th.
The Soviets even anticipated future internal instability,drawing up operational plans "Volna" and "Kompas" in early 1956.
Pava is correct about a Soviet withdrawal but unfortunately out by 2 very significant years. 1955 not 1957.
Source (to please Vandorlo :) ) Soviet military intervention in Hungary 1956.

PS Hungarian forces were never designated to invade neutral Austria,the Soviet plan was for Hungary to assist in a Soviet drive on Italy via Slovenia (Tito could either join in or be invaded!)

@JA - falcon/eagle/hawk - big deal!

c? Oops. Wrong answer!
Any of the other choices a, b, d or e might have been okay.
Don't feel too bad, though. Your answer would have been correct if the choice read
c. A historical fact because a Hungarian thought it would happen.
Better luck next time!

@justasking

What do you mean by “she just asks that you defend yours and make sure that your facts are straight” – what facts?. How can you defend something when the allegations are not clear?

That was the reason for my posting. Accusing people (see point forms) and giving no examples and not backing up one single allegation.. Phrases like “unlikely biographies” ??? Telling Vandorlo he has a birth defect in a previous posting. (his brain is wired different from hers?) Who is to decide what is “pig ignorant”? - Starting to repeat myself.

Moving along… I made the following speech to my son last night on the phone (after the hockey game) who shares all your and Viking’s sentiments re the USA. Please ignore the part that’s not applicable to either of you.

“ How can you be so bloody ignorant and make sweeping statements against a whole country? If you hate the US so much you should not be taking advantage of their education system and its scholarship while breathing the American air. – perhaps you should have applied to the University of Iran and then you could sit around all day with other like-minded students dumping on Americans” -

Viking – I put my gypsy course on Sweden as far as the Olympics go - so Sweden beating Canada ain’t gonna happen. Trust me.

CuriousGeorgi
The Soviets DID actually commit themselves to withdrawal on October 30th 1956,after leaving Budapest. Kruschev and Molotov wanted to start explaining a withdrawal to other WarsawPact members,it was only the defection of Kádár that offered a new glimmer of successfully restoring order and ousting the Nagy government.As we all know the Soviets with the support of traitors returned in force November 4th 1956.

Zsuzsa: thanks for bringing up that issue about Russia planning to pull out of Hungary in 1957. I was intrigued with that topic, but never got to follow it up. Pav, if it was you that brought that up, can you provide any links or sources where I might find further info? I don't want to sound like I'm demanding sources...I am really interested in this. As time goes on and more secret documents are declassified, there is a whole lot of info leaking out about things that went on behind the scenes throughout the Soviet era. I'm particularly interested in the history hidden by the iron curtain, because I know that so much of what we learned was...well, shall we say 'less than reliable'. If you could provide something, I'd be most appreciative.

Hello all,

I first heard about the possibility of 1956 Russian withdrawal intentions from Pávaszem on the thread we had for commemorating the '56 uprising last October:

"Remembering '56: Let the people speak"
http://www.politics.hu/20091022/remembering-56-let-the-people-speak#comment

We did discuss the issue there to some extent, and my reading of Kruschchev's autobiagraphy did indeed show a lot of ambivalence on his part about staying in Hungary. There were "hawkish" elements, according to him, which included the Chinese Communists under Mao, who felt that the coherence of the Communist block called for strong reprisal in Hungary.

Now the idea that the Russians intended to leave anyway prior to Oct '56, and that the uprising was therefore an unecessary shedding of blood, would be very controversial to many Hungarians, especially those who lived through those days. My suggestion would be for us to run a '56 commemorative thread this October again, with the chance for Pávaszem, or anyone else, to present alternative historical theories and evidence. What I would ask for on the part of all concerned is that such an effort take place in an atmosphere of mutual respect and collegiality.

FL@ No the Soviets did not intend to leave prior to 1956,thanks to the WarsawPact treaty (to counter the new NATO)it was written in that they would stay in all 'commie bloc' countries to 'defend' the borders. Prior to the WarsawPact it was expected that they would honour the obligations of 1945,leaving Hungary when Austria was freed of occupiers,1955.I guess NATO destroyed such a hope !
Hungarians only wanted a just result and an Austrian style neutrality not further occupation.

FL: thanks for putting that link up. I had lost that thread. I think it's a great idea to do the commemorative thing again...I just don't want to wait until October to learn more about this. I must admit that it seems hard to believe that they were going to pull out, but then, who's to say? Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. I do know about the pressure from China. I probably shouldn't comment more on that.

@ Vandor out the door, please!

What's wrong? Is baby feeling a little bit left out and unloved, because nobody really gives a shit what you have to say, hmmmm?

@ George,

Blah, Blah, Blah

@ Olga;

Look, you want to get to the bottom of this "pig-ignorant" opinion that Elle has of some people on this site, ask her yourself. That's what I'd recommend, I'm sure she'll tune you in right quick. As for her comment about Vandor, read what he said to her FIRST and then start taking sides.

I do not appreciate you twisting my words around and saying that I hate Americans. I find them to be annoying and shockingly ignorant at times; but, I don't hate them.

@ Ricsi;

Thanks for jumping in there.

Z

@Ricsi - no real issue with your comment regarding events after Oct 23rd.
What I was referring to was Pava's statement that Russia had long planned to pull out permanently before anything happened.

Curious@Like I said,he was wrong,after 1955 and NATO they had no intention of leaving.
The end of 1955 would have seen them leave had not NATO been created followed by Warsaw Pact.

@ justasking

You are right and I apologize. You have never posted anything that would lead me to believe that you actually "hate" anyone because of race, colour, religion, nationality etc.

Your postings often make me think of a kitten who is convinced she was actually a hyena.

That's why IMHO you make a poor JOBBIK supporter unless you plan to sign up for hate lessons. (just my "pig ignorant" opinion of course.)

@ Olga;

Actually, I hate cats. Does that qualify?

Justasking@ Do not waste valuable time on the 'pig ignorant' :)

Watch your steps.
Would be nice to also meet you soon!!!

I love cats, but I couldn't eat a whole one.

Somebody once asked the comedian W C Fields if he loved children; he said yes, but only if they are well cooked!

I hate everything and everyone. That doesn't necessarily make me a bad person.

@ Ricsi,

Well, than lets get something organized. You come up with the guest list and I'll pick the venue. I know! Lets have it at Vikings restaurant and we'll have Pava as a guest speaker! Whaddya think??

Just kidding, I'd get together for a coffee.

@ Cinaed;

I remember watching a documentary on cultures around the World who actually eat cats. YUK! That's just not right, no matter how much I don't like them, ya still don't eat them.

JustAsking@A mutual friend told me you are likely to visit soon..
Would be great to meet up.Smorgasbord and Vodka at Vikings place :)

Contact our friend,we will organise a few regulars (a few surprises for you also!)we know some very good meeting places in BP.

over and out from R to Z

Even more OT:

A cook-show with a recipe for cooking (or barbecueing ?) cats was on Italian TV just a few days ago ...

It sparked a big protest in Italy (Sorry, can't find the link right now, but it was in some German newspaper).

Thats right Wolfi and Cinaed,try to destroy a thread that you can't debate or contribute to, with your stupid humour ! So typical, and very sad to see Farkas Laszlo partcipating.

@ Ricsi,

Will do, count me in.

Z

@ Wolfie;

That's right, I remember now. One of the cultures featured on the documentary that I watch years ago re: eating cats, was in fact Italy. Yukky, yuk, yuk.

If by "eating cats" you include lion meat, then here is a very interesting website for a purveyor of gourmet and exotic meats:

http://1-800-exoticmeats.com/ravioli.html

They sell elephant, zebra, python, lion, swan meat and many more "edibles" as well! They will even stuff these meats into ravioli if you want. Astonish your dinner guests! Eat like the decadent ancient Roman aristrocracy!

@FL:

You forgot to mention wolf- and grizzly-meat (I heard it's eaten in Canada, is that true ?) ...

When I was young, it was wellknown that people in one village in the Black Forest would slaughter and eat dogs and cats. Several people went to jail for that - I am not sure that this custom stopped though.

One of the reason for slaughtering dogs was the belief, that dogfat could let men's hair grow again - it was sold very deaarly ...

Now you talk about the Asians and Tigerpenises or whatever ...

Hi Wolfi,

The website link I provided does sell bear meat! They also sell tiger meat too! No penises though, that's likely a different website!

My God Ricsi, take a pill or something. I make one off-hand comment, a very short one at, that in response to someone else's comment...the REST OF THE GROUP take it up and go on to expand it, while I go off to bed for the night...then I wake up and somehow it is ME that has destroyed the conversation. For fuck's sake.

@ Ricsi;

Actually, I'm the one who started the cat comment, I was trying to be ironic. So really I'm the one who "destroyed" the thread and not Cinaed or (gulp) Wolfie.

I'll take the heat for it.

@Ricsi: Ok, I'll ask one last time and any of you clowns can provide the necessary sources: So Ricsi were are the documents and recorded sources for your 1955 withdrawal?

You see most people have this really strange idea that Russia didn't plan any such things because they are just born oppressors when it comes to Mother Russia, hence their continued activity in most of their previous territories.

Also, most people have the strange idea that there was no inkling of a change in temperament until the leaked speech of the Twentieth Party Congress in the February 25, 1956 in which Khrushchev vilified Stalin. Etc...

Anyway, I await the references and sources with bated breath.

@Justawasteofspace: What did I write to Elle that would have upset her?

Whats the point Ricsi? If Vandorlo really wanted to find the information it's available.

"information" available where ?

Maybe at kuruc or stormfront ?

Thanks for the joke!

Vandorlo@My gypsy wanderer,only one clown here and that be you :)
I will try to make it simple for you.
Under the peace treaty signed between Hungary and the victorious powers (Feb 10th 1947--look it up!)
One clause allowed the stationing of Soviet troops on Hungarian territory whilst there were still occupying troops in Austria (divided into zones,with the East under Soviet occupation)and until Austria regained full sovereignty.
I quote-'During negotiations held in Moscow between April 12 and 15,1955 ..Austria committed itself to Swiss style neutrality.Accordingly the Soviet Union vowed to withdraw its troops 'The treaty for an independent Austria was signed May15, 1955 but in retaliation to the formation of NATO the Soviets concluded the Warsaw Pact on May 14th-those sneaky bastards,thanks to NATO found a way to justify staying in the Eastern bloc.
If they ever intended to leave is of course questionable,but they did agree to this in the Hungarian peace treaty.Of course I am not defending Stalin for I am certain he saw a treaty as a 'piece of paper to be torn up at a later date' to quote Hitler.
Over and out.....

@Ricsi:

That's something you and the communists have in common:

One shouldn't believe a word You're saying ...

Wolfi@You naive fool,I did not write that treaty! Look it up and read it 'Feb 10th 1947,The Hungarian peace treaty.'

Like I keep saying,of course the commies would seek a way to break it,and so they did.

Last comment on this subject.

@Ricsi - Hold on there, Delboy, I'm not buying it just yet. Justasking & horses may consider something from an anonymous source posted on the internet without references as a historical fact, but you and I know better, eh sport?

Let me get this right. So what you're saying is, Russia signed an agreement in 1947 agreeing to withdraw from Hungary after it pulled its troops out from Austria. But, after NATO was formed in '49 and given Russian paranoia about security, no-one actually knew whether the Russians intended to, or had plans to do so (...no one except for Pava, but only, he got the dates mixed up)
Okay, that makes sense.

@ Vandoroffabridge,

What are you talking about? What do I care about what people on this site, or anywhere else for that matter, thinks/feels about you?

@Justasking: You wrote "As for her comment about Vandor, read what he said to her FIRST and then start taking sides." Which is why I asked you what I had written that you think upset Elle. Losing the ability to follow your own discourse as well as others'?

@ Vandor,

My response to you is on another thread. Go look for it if you want.

@Cináed: "Zsuzsa: thanks for bringing up that issue…" It was actually Curious George that brought it up. Can you guess WHY? Have you heard the expression, hogy valaki keveri a szart? "Russia planning to pull out of Hungary in 1957… can you provide any links or sources?" Have you checked out the links and sources I provided on the original http://bit.ly/a0WrQS board where I listed the treaties that stipulated the withdrawal such as Yalta, the Berlin Conference at Potsdam in 1945, the Paris Peace Treaties of 1947 and of course the Austrian State Treaty. I wrote that more than six months before the Allied inspired riots the Russkies had already dismantled the 'border lock' (barbed wire fences and mine fields) on the rump Austria-rump Hungary border. The exact date that can be easily confirmed is May 10, 1956. I suggested that the Allies incited the riot to divert Soviet resources from Suez. In fact any survivor of the 56 riot that had contact with the returning mostly Uzbek and Tajik Soviet troops will tell you that 'the Russian soldiers' thought they were in Suez.

@Cináed, more: I am told that FRUS http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/FRUS/ has some interesting documents confirming my theory but I haven't been able to check them out yet. If you want to go first, be my guest. "As time goes on and more secret documents are declassified, there is a whole lot of info leaking out about things that went on behind the scenes throughout the Soviet era. I'm particularly interested in the history hidden by the iron curtain, because I know that so much of what we learned was...well, shall we say 'less than reliable'." My sentiments exactly. "I do know about the pressure from China. I probably shouldn't comment more on that." Why not? :))

@justasking: "Pávaszem didn't explain anything… He made a claim and then provided no proof or sources..." wrote Vándorló lying as usual, brazenly ignoring everything that doesn't fit his agenda, see above. "He tried to side step by asking for the tape of Gerő's speech" Translation: I demonstrated how historical documents from that period disappear. "Páva's basic claim is that Hungary was occupied merely as a logistic supply route to Austria" True, except it's not just 'Páva's claim' it is laid out in the easily accessible texts of multiple treaties. Vándorló is betting on people being too lazy too look up my original comments and references I guess. He is such a crook. "[Vándorló awaits]... references and sources with bated breath" Why doesn't he just go back to the original board and read them, I wonder… (Olga, did you see that? I said 'I wonder!') He's probably too lazy to ignore them twice.

@Olga: "I can’t stop laughing..." That's not a good sign, Olga… "if a female used such language in Iran" Again, she never used the language attributed to her in the forged email. Iran also does not suppress women like you imply. "I missed the news when she denied making the statement" Like she is supposed to even acknowledge every lowlife that tries to smear her. She is also a lawyer or haven't you heard. "refused an opportunity to make mince meat out of the New York Jew" Again, she won't be provoked or tricked into diverting her time and energy from the issues that matter to us (which is probably one of the things our New York friend had in mind). You're badmouthing her. Will she sue you? "Mediterranean cookbook" Since we were discussing a religious issue I tried to point you to an appropriate source such as a priest or minister instead of the references you were using that are shall we say insufficient. I didn't know that you are filled with such hate toward any faith other than your own Marxist-atheist religion that you will take this as an insult. "Germans ought to be more like Ernst Zundel" Zündel is Canadian. Edgar Reitz is German. Have you seen Heimat? No? Maybe you should.

@Olga, more: "Your humour escaped me once again when you defined 'anti-Hungarian'. If the majority of pro-Hungarians wanted an ultra-right wing party to lead the country, then they would vote for such a party. If the majority rejects such a party, does it follow that the majority is anti-Hungarian?" What are you talking about? You asked me to define anti-Hungarian and I did. What part of my definition do you not understand? "Could you be implying that Erik earns extra income by moonlighting?" Boy, does he ever… :) "Let me guess: David Duke, Ernst Zundel, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad…" Again WTF are you saying? Do any of these people comment on Poltics.hu?

Pav: now I have the thread again, I've bookmared it and will go back to find the links. Thanks also for the FRUS link. When I get a chance I'll see what I can find. One of the really frustrating things about Hungarian history is that there is so little interest in it (globally speaking). It's really hard to find stuff that actually includes Hungarian major events or puts events in Hungary in context with other wider events.
-
re: the Suez crisis. I did know that the west was far more interested in keeping control of the Suez canal than it was in upholding its values of freedom and democracy and countering the communist evil. It doesn't seem likely to me that the west would actually incite an uprising in Hungary as a distraction (did I read you right?), it seems more likely that it was a convenient distraction...but then, I admit I am just speculating.

@Viking: "It is a bit hard for an outsider as myself, to feel that Hungarians in general have got a much harder deal than any other people in Europe" Are you crazy? We lost 78.6% of our territory, out of a population of 19 million 12 million people lost their Hungarian citizenship, we were bombed back into the stone age and loaded up with debt we'll never be able to pay off while we're robbed of all our resources that would allow us to even manage that 'debt.' Who else in Europe was fucked over like that? "In the beginning of the 90s it was a small risk for armed conflict between Hungary and Romania, but it was avoided and a treaty was signed that has been hated by the right-wingers ever since" Do you make these things up on the fly as we go along?

@Curious George: "c? Oops. Wrong answer!" Yo, crackhead, can you tell me why the Soviets leaving Hungary after they left Austria is so unbelievable to you brainwashed cattle? Or don't you even believe that they left Austria? They have also left Hungary by the way or haven't you noticed? Or do you think they are still hiding in the woods somewhere? Apeshit...

@slinky: "Like his last statement about that general/marshla being a Volljude" Can't you even wiki, you cretin? 'In 1935, Milch's ethnicity came into question because his father, Anton Milch, was a Jew. This prompted an investigation by the Gestapo that Göring quelled by producing an affidavit signed by Milch's mother stating that Anton was not really the father of Erhard and his siblings, and naming their true father as Karl Brauer, her uncle. These events and his being issued a German Blood Certificate prompted Hermann Göring to give his famous quotation 'Wer Jude ist, bestimme ich' (I decide who is a Jew). Nonetheless, a further complication is assertions that the Rosenau family of Milch's mother was also Jewish, raising the implication that Milch may have been a full-blooded Jew' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Milch

@slinky, more: Bryan Rigg's (Cambridge University)in his 'Lives of Hitler's Jewish Soldiers: Untold Tales of Men of Jewish Descent Who Fought for the Third Reich' http://bit.ly/9EXnH3 also mentions Milch and the perhaps as many as 150,000 Jews, including decorated veterans and high-ranking officers, even generals and admirals that served in the Nazi military. "I wrote that a long time ago…a nice kosher restaurant" You wrote it a few days ago a couple of comments up you senile prick. "I've even been to the Jeweler's cafe in Manhattan on 42nd st (where all the Jewish businesses in Manhattan are)," It's on 47th between 5th and 6th you clueless moron in the JEWelry District. ALL businesses in Manhattan are 'Jewish' (or so it seems…) Hymietown? 'Jew York' sabe? "I've already brought some real Black Forest ham to Jews and also to Muslims" You keep doing that until you run into some zealot, OK? "historical facts" that he gets from kuruc or hungarianambiance and other " Quote me on one single item I got from Ambience or Kuruc.info. How do you even know what Kuruc.info says when you don't know Hungarian? "Schwarz, Weiss … Those "German names" for Jews were not handed down to them in Germany but in Austria" They are still German names, you moron.

@Pava - same ol, same ol BS repeated. Since your claim in Oct, I usually just skip 3 or 4 posts whenever I see a mix of italics, bold, links, and a bizarre first sentence. I knew you'd reply to what I wrote to JA - mix the shit, if you like. Btw, nice pic! It reminds everyone of what you're trying to do here.

So, what do your comments prove? Squat! You avoided the question, propose the same theory (again), make up some facts, provide a link (which you claim you yourself haven't read) & we have to buy that as a historical fact. Bull-shit! We're not JA!
You state that the Russians planned to withdraw from Hungary just because of some treaties (which predate the existence of NATO), and the fact they had dismantled some borders locks on the Austrian border on 10 May 56? So, how does forming the Warsaw pact (with Hungary in it) 4 days later fit in with your theory? What, they needed the Warsaw pact troops help them carry their equipment back to Moscow? Really! I heard it was Uzbekistan or Tajikistan! You can take your flock on another merry-go-round, but I don't have the time to get on.
Like I said, BS, once turned over!

Well, pavian, the German wiki has it different - anyway your citation contains a lot of speculation.
"Tagebucheintrag Victor Klemperers vom 18. Oktober 1936 belegt:
„Und Martha berichtet von dem Fliegergeneral Milch, der eine arische Mutter und einen jüdischen Vater habe: er gebe an, seine Mutter habe ihn im Ehebruch von einem Arier empfangen.”

And: Milch's father was a "converted" Jew - so was he a Jew at all ?

BTW: Why are Jews or the Jewishness of some people so important to you - do you have personal problems there ?

Do you also mind that Einstein and most of the famous Hungarian physicists were Jews ?

And: Ernst Zündel is a Schwab (shame on us!) who emigrated at 19 to Canada, because he did not want to serve in the military - just like some famous US politicians ...

@ Pavaszem
1. Your commented that "Iran also does not suppress women like you imply.” And you have the nerve to ask me WTF I mean? - Following is an article – kindly pay attention to one paragraph:
"Under Shariah law, the life of a woman is worth half that of a man and therefore her testimony as well in court," explained Afshin-Jam. “
So WTF is your definition of not suppressing women?
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070109/nazanin_070109/20070109?hub=Canada

2. Just typing Ernst Zundel’s name makes me ill but I did a google search (.Link re recent article below) I am not going to spend any more time on this man, but I don’t believe he is a Canadian citizen – however I am sure you will either confirm that I am wrong or send me an apology if I am right.
The article states he cannot come back to Canada – I believe he could if he were a Canadian citizen.
http://dailygleaner.canadaeast.com/canadaworld/article/958177

Re; Christina Morvai – give me a break. If the email was “forged” which I don’t believe for a second, it was the best thing that ever happened to her in Pavaland – more ultra-right wing zealots “at her feet” I actually heard her name around 2005 and was duly impressed. I thought she was a dedicated lawyer who championed Women’s Rights and I believe she was using her legal brain at that time to advance the Human Rights of Palestinian women.
cont...

@ Pavaszem cont...

Seems the Palestinians had a change of heart (no need to send me links to Mossad agents who were responsible for her being “axed”)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/15/krisztina-morvai-london-conference-ban
I did not take the Mediterranean cook book comment an insult, just didn’t get it.
I realize your favourite hobby is to research the wrong doings of every Jewish ass… e past and present who have insane ideas, and then blame it on Jewish people in general. Have you considered expanding your hobby and pick another group ? You may find that Jewish people do not have the market cornered on the likes of Kramer or whatever the jerk’s name was advocating that birth rates in Palestine ought to be limited. (Advocating Hitler’s agenda to exterminate Jews, Roma, disabled people, gays , that‘s ok of course.)
Re: “Let me guess: David Duke, Ernst Zundel, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad…" Again WTF are you saying? Do any of these people comment on Poltics.hu?

My response was to your question “And boy would you be surprised if I told you who I think may have a point not in Hungary.” - At first I thought you meant people on politcs.hu but then I decided that the only people who agree with you outside Hungary on this website are your little groupies like Mark, Bob etc. I figured that would not go under the “surprise heading”

BTW, please stop playing juvenile games like " "you would be surprised if you knew" - Reminds me of the boring game "Charades"

.

Can you tell me why the Soviets leaving Hungary after they left Austria is so unbelievable to you brainwashed cattle......
Or do you think they are still hiding in the woods somewhere? Apeshit...
Pávaszem at February 25, 2010 7:08 PM

No, they're not hiding in the woods, dickhead. They're all over the place, or can't you see them? In my country, there are 70 times the number of Russians than there are Hungarians. You know, my theory is that they planned this global domination right from the start;)
See my question above, you Carpathian Neanderthal!
You made a bizarre claim, and substantiated it with more outrageous claims. And your proof is,.... an Uzbek or Tajik soldier whispered this to some 8/9 year old Hungarian kid. Foot soldier in the Soviet army? Not really the brightest, or most informed sources, are they?
Don't you get it? No one here has yet bought your BS about the Soviets withdrawing. .
Well, except maybe justasking, but that's only because she's cowering down, terrified of a 'falcon' swooping down on her. The rest of us look up, and just see a one-eyed pigeon with a bad case of diarrhoea, shitting all over the place.
ps. Please keep using the pic. It reminds everyone of what you're doing here.

George the manipulative Jewish imposter bum, who occupies Palestine, and dosen't realise he is a Khazar.

@Olga:

"your little groupies" - that was good!

@Curious George:

"George the manipulative Jewish imposter bum, who occupies Palestine"

You did this on your own ? - congratulations!

Like I sais before - the jobos are getting even crazier ...