The radical nationalist Jobbik party has prepared for the election campaign and is ready to take over government “in the interest of saving the country”, party leader Gabor Vona told a press conference in Budapest on Saturday.
Vona, who is Jobbik’s candidate for prime minister, said that his party would be able to win even with the limited means at their disposal as “the strongest weapon”, justice, was on their side.
Jobbik is campaigning on a platform of full accountability, radical change, national self-determination and justice, Vona said. Now is the time for the economic and national policies of the past twenty years to be destroyed “entirely and forever”, he added.
Jobbik will set up a shadow government in the weeks to come.
Jobbik, which has no presence in Parliament, appeared on Hungary’s political scene in force during the European elections last June, winning nearly 15 percent of votes and three seats in the European Parliament.
General elections are scheduled to take place in Hungary this spring.
is ready to take over government
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I suppose that is what justasking call having a ‘healthy ego’.
In the summer Vona claimed that Jobbik would get 30% at ‘next election’, now that they will get ’50%+1 vote’ in the next Parliament.
Let see if Vona do as MIEPs Csurka Istvan did in 2002 and go to the races on election day and win 100.000 HUF.
That was the only win Csurka Istvan could count home later in the evening.
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It will be really interesting to see who they put in their “shadow government”.
I’ll join the shadow government!
But only if I can wear the uniform…
And they will save the country by doing………..? To destroy the economic and national policies of the past 20 years may be an aim, but with what will they be replaced? Anarchists have similar ‘negative’ policies….demolish and see what happens, never rebuild.
Problem is, so many people are disillusioned with the current and past governments that they may vote for this nonsense.
@Abácsi
“And they will save the country by doing………..?”
Dude, read the manifesto.
You can’t come out with that old “Jobbik doesn’t have any policies” bullshit any more. Not that I think it will stop you though.
read the manifesto
bobscountrybunker at January 18, 2010 1:51 PM
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Yes, chasing out any western investors and inviting Russian and Chinese investors is a *big* change in policy.
The question is though how that will improve Hungary’s situation.
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But, the article does not mention anything of these changes that are inside the manifesto, but it quotes Vona as just saying:
‘Now is the time for the economic and national policies of the past twenty years to be destroyed “entirely and forever”‘
“Yes, chasing out any western investors and inviting Russian and Chinese investors is a *big* change in policy.”
You’ll forgive me if I, or anyone else, don’t take your one sentence interpretation of a 25 page section on economics in the manifesto as definitive. Not that I believe you’ve read it at all frankly.
“The question is though how that will improve Hungary’s situation.”
No. The question was the one posed. Abácsi saying that Jobbik were policy free anarchists. This is what I addressed. You just came in and changed the subject. As usual. This is what you do.
“But, the article does not mention anything of these changes that are inside the manifesto, but it quotes Vona as just saying:
‘Now is the time for the economic and national policies of the past twenty years to be destroyed “entirely and forever”‘”
You find what Vona said disturbing? So you think the last 20 years have been an unquaified success do you? Hungary has been on the right track, as far as your concerned? Let me assure you that MTI’s reputation for quoting out of context is still very much intact. The full speech is again available online. It’s just doing its standard job of selective quotation for the benefit of non-Hungarian speakers. As usual. This is what they do.
But what I find much more telling, is the fact that “the article does not mention anything of these changes that are inside the manifesto”! Wonder why that might be?
@Bobs…: If it’s important for Jobbik to get their message across internationally, why don’t they make sure that there is at least an English summary?
Those of us that can read it are not going to do their job for them.
China just restored text messaging, internet access and phone calls in the Uighur region, having cut it off in July due to disturbances. Russia is widely known for its democratic stance and open tolerance of dissent also. Perfect partners I’d think. Mix in Taiwan’s way of debating in parliament and Jobbik are all set for a bright future: http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=52807
@Vándorló
On your first point I couldn’t agree more. I was very surprised, particularly in light of the misrepresentation they continually get in the international press, that they didn’t roll out an English language version at the same time. Maybe it’s a work in progress?
But really guys, what have the Human Rights records of Russia or China got to do with anything? You’re clutching at straws.
There’s not a man posting here whose socks weren’t made in China so the high and mightiness is a bit unfounded I think. Deny it.
Did you cut of your home from consuming Russian gas over the winter Vándorló? Hmmm?…
And the EU’s Human rights record is hardly examplary, e.g. Slovak language law, October 2006 etc. You might recognize the last two, given that they’re issues that actually impact on Hungarians.
And the EU’s Human rights record is hardly examplary, e.g. Slovak language law, October 2006 etc. You might recognize the last two, given that they’re issues that actually impact on Hungarians.
bobscountrybunker at January 18, 2010 2:54 PM
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The obvious is of course to ask how many have died due to Human Rights Violations in Hungary the last years.
I will not, because every one knows it is zero (0).
But I would say that what has impacted Hungarians inside the post-Trianon borders (and most probably outside those borders also) has more been the Russian Gas Deliveries, or the lack of it.
Put In using them as political pressure.
But what the heck, you guys want to work with him.
Put In is your big Guru nowadays.
Wonder why an old KGB-boss has reached cult-status among the European Radical Right?
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To the question of China (as someone else pointed out the last days):
* Why is China investing in Hungary today?
Because it is inside the EU, Hungary is on of the Chinese gateway into EU.
Hungary outside the EU, why should the Chinese bother?
If you think US and European bad Capitalists are really bad, well visit China and see the conditions there.
@Bobs…: Well exactly. Should we hold Russia at all accountable for the atrocities committed by its previous Soviet regime, or seek some way of working together and moving forward. Meanwhile back at home Jobbik do not consider people whose opinions to not confer with their own to be Hungarian and would like to hold their children fully accountable for the Soviet regime’s actions. You reject the West for what reasons (capitalism? consumerism? open markets?) and your embrace the East for what reasons (communism? fixed trading? closed markets?). Why chose East over West if not only to be lame, cantankerous contrarians?
And let me get this right you think EU Human rights are on a par with those of Russia and China?
Tell me, does Jobbik leadership, deep down, really give a shit about the suffering under communism, or is it just useful psycho-social leverage on a blunt minded and ill-informed public?
‘Now is the time for the economic and national policies of the past twenty years to be destroyed “entirely and forever”‘”
You find what Vona said disturbing?
bobscountrybunker at January 18, 2010 2:17 PM
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Yes, I find what Vona says “disturbing”.
Why?
In the years 1990-2010 Hungary has gone from an economy when just a few, who had good connections to the Communist Party, could open private businesses and basically be guaranteed monopoly for a geographic area.
This is the time my wife calls ‘the time when you told the tax office 10% of what you sold and earned 90%’
Today she calls ‘the time when you tell the tax office 90% of what you sell and earn only 10%’.
You and Vona may be free to share my wife’s opinion that it was better before.
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It has been much easier to start your own comapny in Hungary, this is of course bad, because Jobbik is not for entrepreneurs, then it was better pre-1990 and that is why we need to throw away the last 20 years of economic policies.
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Hungary has joined both Nato and the EU during these last 20 years.
Yes, we know Jobbik think that is bad, because it makes us dependent on the US and the Jews in Brussels. The ones who are not already here of course.
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Let us say, that I do not share Jobbik’s opinion that everything was bad the last 20 years.
I would state that most of the things were good that happened, but there is always things that need to be better.
Vona’s stand-point is that everything that happened the last 20 years was bad.
All those who were present and all those who watched the live Internet feed of the meeting had the privilege to witness Hungarian history in the making.
Jobbik’s program is impressive. It will take more than a day to study the 88-page document but what I have read so far is very good.
What Jobbik is proposing is the responsible thing to do to save Hungary a free and independent nation.
Watching the video presentation of delegates, one could not help noticing the many young faces and some old faces standing shoulder to shoulder such as the freedom fighter Levente Murányi standing with young men and women who were born years after the Uprising.
I believe that while not every Hungarian is a Jobbik supporter, Jobbik is for every patriotic Hungarian, Jobbik supporter or not.
@Vándorló
“And let me get this right you think EU Human rights are on a par with those of Russia and China?”
You are being dishonest again, and you know it. I did not bring up the subject of Russia or China, but as you and I both know, China for example is not a purported democracy that attempts to arrogantly proclaim its superiority on issues of human rights. The EU is.
The difference is (he says stating the obvious – yet again – to people who know precisely that it is the obvious, and who continue wasting everyone’s time by pretending otherwise) that the EU continually fails to live up to what it says it is. While China makes no such claims.
China has never claimed to be a champion of human rights, and even less a champion upon whom Hungarians could rely to ensure these rights are not abused in Hungary.
The EU is.
I should have thought this was a distinction even you would have been capable of appreciating.
@Viking
“It has been much easier to start your own company in Hungary, this is of course bad, because Jobbik is not for entrepreneurs…”
Please be kind enough to point to which part of the manifesto you are using to justify this nonsensical assertion. I know you’re used to just making stuff up because it fits your conceptions, but go on have a try.
Is it the commitment, in Section II.1.7., to decreasing Capital Gains and Income Taxes on Small and Medium Sized Enterprises to 30%? (Or are you defining firms like Tesco as entrepreneurs, as opposed to SMEs?) Or perhaps it is III.1.16 which says that in Jobbik’s view the dominance of multinational corporations has unjustly prevented Hungarian SMEs from flourishing. In other words, that they have prevented Hungarian entrepreneurship. Just read sections III.1.7, III.1.11, and III.1.12 and try and understand: you can no longer just decide to make up whatever unfounded bullshit just happens to pop into your head and then say, “This is Jobbik’s policy”.
It is they who decide what their policy is is not you.
So why don’t you actually try and find out what it really is for a change?
It’s just a thought…
bobscountrybunker: “It is they who decide what their policy is is not you.”
Are you sure that these people are ready for anything so radical. Backing up their claims about Jobbik’s program using Jobbik’s program would deprive them the opportunity to make up stuff and lie.
I noticed that these “people” constantly ask proofs of even the most elementary and most obvious for no other reason than to get one into a never-ending cycle of stupid questions followed by more stupid questions. I do not play…
Ii it too radical to ask these people to point out where in Jobbik’s program they find all those lunatic claims they make about Jobbik’s program.
We saw more than one time the question; what does Jobbik want. Well, it is there in their program. That is what Jobbik want. They have to read it instead of asking the same mindless and useless question repeatedly.
Is it so hard?
Please be kind enough to point to which part of the manifesto you are using to justify this nonsensical assertion
bobscountrybunker at January 18, 2010 4:13 PM
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Who is now changing the subject?
The subject was:
(Vona states:)’Now is the time for the economic and national policies of the past twenty years to be destroyed “entirely and forever”‘
You find what Vona said disturbing?
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That is what I answer, and I knew you would come up with the manifest, *but* Vona’s statement means that he (and therefore the whole Jobbik-crew here) thinks that 1990 was better than 2010.
That is it – It is a bad statement, Vona flopped.
Or was it really better in 1990, than now in 2010?
Please give examples on what have been sooo much worse due to “the economic and national policies of the past twenty years”?
It is not, ‘if we would have been in power it would have been better’-type of statement.
It is a total rejection of the last 20 years of development in Hungary, nothing else.
You do not need to have something to be ‘destroyed “entirely and forever”‘ if it just was ‘not good enough’.
My personal opinion is that the last 20 years was just that, not good enough. Not enough hard cut in public administration, not enough *proper* privatisation, like BKV should be operated by independent contractors on 5 year contracts to a fixed price and agreed Quality of Service, etc
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Vona’s argument is just that populist trash that you guys love to throw around you.
Complex things simplified into a slogan
“That is what I answer, and I knew you would come up with the manifest, *but* Vona’s statement means that he (and therefore the whole Jobbik-crew here) thinks that 1990 was better than 2010.”
It means no such thing. Saying the last 20 years were flawed does not mean that 21 years ago was glorious: anymore than my saying I disliked the last 20 minutes means that I thought the preceeding hour was a joy. What is it about this proposition that you find so difficult to understand? What is it about basic logic that is just so totally alien to you?
Addressing myself directly to your statement is not changing the subject. Yet somehow you think it is… You seem to convince yourself that it is you who knows all about what Jobbik thinks. So you said “Jobbik is not for entrepreneurs.” I am asking you to justify this statement by indicating a relevant part of the manifesto.
You have not done so.
You are always the one who reacts to Mark or Law or anyone else saying, “Give me a concrete example.” “Please link to a document.” “Show us what eveidence.” Etc. I am simply asking you to practise what you preach. Please do so.
If you cannot prove this assertion. And so prove that what you think Jobbik stands for is demonstrated by what they actually say in their manifesto. And you continue to dodge the question. (Which you will.) Then we are all perfectly justified in thinking every other, unsupported, nonsensical statement you make about Jobbik to be similarly absurd.
It means no such thing. Saying the last 20 years were flawed does not mean that 21 years ago was glorious
bobscountrybunker at January 18, 2010 5:17 PM
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But Vona did *not* state that the “last 20 years were flawed”, he stated ‘Now is the time for the economic and national policies of the past twenty years to be destroyed “entirely and forever”‘
If he meant ‘flawed’ I think he should have said that, but he did not.
Time to get a better speech-writer?
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For the amount of avoidance-tactic you put down on this obviously ‘flawed statement’ of Vona, so for the moment just remember what I wrote, and stand for:
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It has been much easier to start your own comapny in Hungary, this is of course bad, because Jobbik is not for entrepreneurs, then it was better pre-1990 and that is why we need to throw away the last 20 years of economic policies.
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Vona’s now ‘flawed’ statement was that it was better to run private businesses under the Communists (this was possible in the end of the 1980s, but it was a bit of tricky to get the license).
If Vona makes a statement where he rejects the last 20 years development, well then Jobbik is hardly good for entrepreneurs, or actually any now living Hungarian, except for a few old Communists that did not adopt to the new situation post-1990.
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So if we now agree that Vona’s statement was flawed, then I will look into what Jobbik has to offer me as an entrepreneur.
Better to read Jobbik’s program before making too many stupid statements about it:
http://www.jobbik.hu/sites/jobbik.hu/down/Jobbik-program2010OGY.pdf
@Viking
Now you are just making even more stuff up. Absurdity is piling upon absurdity. It is really very very simple indeed. Even you can understand it.
Point 1.:
Imagine that you spend an hour in a cold dark damp basement with nowhere to sit down. Then after this, someone takes you out of this basement and spends the next twenty minutes pouring buckets of hot custard over your head. After this ordeal you say, “I disapprove of the last 20 minutes. And would rather they had not happened.”
Is your tormentor now justified in turning around and saying, “Ah ha! Saying this means that he clearly approves of the preceding hour when he was in the basement!”?
Of course not. It is utter nonsense to suggest such a thing, and it would not confuse or fool an 8 year old. But for you Viking precisely this kind of assertion is not only valid, but positively persuasive and conclusive.
It’s moronic.
Point 2.:
Again, very very very simple. You don’t have to make anything up or engage in any more crazy imaginary flights of fancy.
(a) You said Jobbik was anti-entrepreneur.
(b) Please prove this assertion by pointing to a single sentence in the document that outlines their policy. What they actually believe. Not what you have decided to imagine that they believe. Namely, their manifesto.
You continue to avoid doing this very easy thing. And everyone knows why this is… because you’re talking out of your arse. And the only person here who doesn’t think this, is you.
“I disapprove of the last 20 minutes. And would rather they had not happened.”
Is your tormentor now justified in turning around and saying, “Ah ha! Saying this means that he clearly approves of the preceding hour when he was in the basement!”?
bobscountrybunker at January 18, 2010 6:17 PM
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Of course, What is your problem with that?
You can ask Law for help, then he thinks Hungary has been in a downright spiral since WWII.
How are every one suppose to interpret that?
It was worse before in 1945?
If something has gone worse since 1945, how can it then not have been better before 1945?
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You do the same thing in your comment:
“So you think the last 20 years have been an unquaified success do you? Hungary has been on the right track, as far as your concerned?”
bobscountrybunker at January 18, 2010 2:17 PM
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Yes, the overall impression has been positive.
Remember I have lived here since 1993, so I compare myself with 1993 and my wife, her parents and Hungarian friends help me understand how it was 1970 to 1990.
The overall impression is, of course, positive.
That is not what you can claim that Vona is stating in his suddenly ‘flawed’ statement:
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Now is the time for the economic and national policies of the past twenty years to be destroyed “entirely and forever”
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What we have done the last 20 years have been so wrong that all “economic and national policies” must ‘be destroyed “entirely and forever”‘.
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So what was so bad?
NATO, EU, that Hungarians in exile could return?
We are still *yawn!* all waiting for your provision of proof that Jobbik is anti-entrepreneur.
Still we wait. And still you dodge.
@bobscountrybunker
Your last response is the only response he deserves. You appear to have excellent command of both English and Hungarian and know your stuff but I believe that with these “people” it is not an advantage. On the contrary, it is a disadvantage. You think that your reasoning will overcome limited minds but it does not work that way. They can keep throwing the same questions at you that you answered numerous times hoping to find some contradiction between response 287 and 698.
For a debate to have any chance of success of resolving issues, you need some integrity on both sides. Without that, all we have is mud throwing. To avoid the mud throwing, I state my position but ignore these people’s repeated questions combined with their distortions of responses they receive. It is not worth it.
Reading Jobbik’s program, it should be obvious to anyone that Jobbik is not anti-entrepreneur. On the contrary, they provide strong incentives for Hungarian entrepreneurs who are systematically destroyed by the Communist MSZP/SZDSZ government.
waiting for your provision of proof that Jobbik is anti-entrepreneur
bobscountrybunker at January 19, 2010 3:14 AM
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As stated several times above, that statement was after Vona stated that it was better 1990 than 2010.
Making such a claim is of course clearly “anti-entrepreneur” itself, than the process to start a company 1990 was terrible complicated, compared to how it is today.
But, if you want to discuss my evaluation on the point:
III.1.5. A külgazdasági orientációnk kelet felé fordítása
you are free to look at my post at January 16, 2010 9:09 PM:
http://www.politics.hu/20091217/pecs-council-puts-up-illegal-roadblock-to-stop-construction-of-nato-facility
in the meantime you are waiting.
For some reason I never have seen any comments from any of you guys, even if I have posted info on it one or two more times.
Viking. People are allowed to open businesses in Hungary now the soviets have gone. Trouble is, they don’t readily know how the free market works.
And, same goes for the MSZP and Fidesz.
Do you honestly believe that Gyurscany Ferenc and
Orban Viktor were/are capabale of leading this country away from its corrupt an incapable communist past?
Corruption is the watchword. Scandals appear on a daily basis to underline just how much progress has been made (NOT) over the last twenty years.
Empty promises, amateur politicians,corrupt officials, people in despair, high costs and low wages ad infinitum. These are the facts. And, any new political force will have to come up with a recipe that not only addresses these concerns but put measures in place that can physically change things for the better.
DraconianMeasures at January 19, 2010 10:11 AM:
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Do you honestly believe that Gyurscany Ferenc and
Orban Viktor were/are capabale of leading this country away from its corrupt an incapable communist past?
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Viking: No, but the last 20 years development is not the question of 2 politicians.
Viki was PM for 4 years, Ferrie for 5 years, that makes 9 in total. Some others were responsible for the remaining 11 years.
Politicians, even PMs, can just influence that much. After 1990 much of the development has been going by itself, very much influenced by financial factors that Hungarian politicians have little sway over.
Of course politicians could have chosen not to join the NATO and EU, but both were accepted in referendums, so?
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Corruption is the watchword
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Viking: As in Greece and Italy?
Are those countries better or worse from Hungary?
Corruption exists when the State has too much to say, to control.
Want to get rid of corruption – privatize and have open competition, equals more free market, less State intervention
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any new political force will have to come up with a recipe that not only addresses these concerns but put measures in place that can physically change things for the better
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Viking: What does
“physically change things for the better”
mean?
Have you seen any political party proposing that here in Hungary?