...to come into conflict with IMF,USA and israel
over bid to reform hungarian finances..?????

I am puzzled:
1)Before he wants to reform hungarian finances he has much to do to reform jobbiks finances..

2)He is already in deep conflict with US and Israel, but not over hungarian finance reform...

what a prick!

vonaton i agree, he really is...

We need to bring to justice the IDF war criminals and all those in the Nazi Israeli government who are responsible for the slaughter of Palestinians, mostly women and children and the continuing human rights violations of Palestinians.

Mark is this an impressive STATEMENT.

I would not mind discussing the issued on their merits because I know that it is reasonable and just for Hungarians to want a free and independent country of their own but those who want to dispossess Hungarians as they have dispossessed the Palestinians do not want a reasoned debate. They want a mud-throwing contest and you people turn every topic into garbage. You know why you do it and we know why you do it.
You will keep smearing Jobbik and other patriotic Hungarians by calling them Nazis and I will remind you of the horrors of Jewish Rakosi and his gang and the barbaric treatment of Palestinians. It does not have to be this way, we could stay on topic and dispense with name-calling and insults but it would not suit you and your “friends”.

@Mark,

If it's OK with you I would like to offer a "reader's digest" of your material to make available for some of the slower-learning Jobbik newbies... would that be OK? I think by eliminating most of the words but retaining your key points you can make a more direct impression and really Cut To The Chase, as they say.

For example Mark COULD have said:
"Blah blah smearing Jobbik and patriotic Hungarians blah blah blah remind you of the horrors of Jewish Rakosi blah blah blah IDF war criminals blah blah Nazi Israeli government blah blah Palestinians."

So Mark, how bout for every 100 "Palestinian" references you make you can tell us ONE thing you have done personally to HELP Palestinians (not counting your ranting and raving).

I'm LISTENING.

Mark if you would follow the palestian-israeli conflict and wider arab -israeli conflict of the years your statements seems to me very selective
and manipulative.

1)Nobody in Israel wants to dispose palestians
(with the exeption of a few crazy ones).Israel
as well as majority of palestians want a just
and durable peace.
Israel has achieved at least with its neighbours jordan and egypt a peace-agreement.
With the palestians (and i do believe you know
the internal palestian problem between Fatah and Hamas )each side knows what it will lead to.
An indepent palestian state alonside israel.
However extreme islamist have much against that.
This is their worst case scenerario.That why the
keep the terror up,lobb missiles into israel and
keep busses blowing up.(Killing jews and non-jews)
To protect its citizen,like any other country would do,Israel hit back several times. Very restrained however to avoid civilian casulties.
Unfortunately innocent people died do to the nature of the guerilla warfare chosen. This is regrettable and not a planned mass extermination
of palestinians by israel.
I know you see this differently and i can not change your views .I only know we will come with the palestians to a 2 state solution.And then waits for us already the next problem..Iran.

judas, it is not true that Israel wants a viable and independent Palestinian state alongside Israel. If there, were any truth to that, Israel would return to pre-1967 borders and not keep on destroying Palestinian homes to make room for Israeli settlements. You cannot build walls that take Palestinian land vital to a viable Palestinian state and abuse the Palestinians to force them off their lands.
Israel tries to justify the slaughter of about 1,400 Palestinians, many women and children while destroying schools, hospitals and UN compounds by the racket attacks that resulted in about 20 Israeli deaths. The disproportionate and barbaric retaliation is a war crime and crime against humanity. This is what the German Nazis did when they were attacked.
Congratulations, Hitler would be very proud.

"Vona also surreally added that were Jobbik to come to power, they would ban the commercial television stations RTL Klub and TV2."

Forgive me, but I fail to see exactly what is surreal about it. It is far from a new statement. This, for example, is Vona saying it in October 2008:
Vona Gábor a magyar média szereplőiről ( RTL Klub / TV2 )

Did you noice, as I did, the rapturous spontaneous applause that this "surreal" idea received? That is populism Viking, just so you know.

Two more articles that might be of intetest to peope:

British businessmen 'tricked' into Hungary jail (Guardian)

Afghans top illegal migration list, says police expert (MTI)

Funny thing about that last one, if only someone might have predicted it... oh that's right. I did.

Bystander obviously does not want a reasoned debate because he is afraid of the truth. If you say “blah blah blah” to “the horrors of Jewish Rakosi”, I say blah blah blah to your “holocaust”. If you want respect, give respect. If you do not give respect, expect none.
Are you sure that you want to make fun of the Jewish Rakosi horrors?
Would it not be logical to accept that Hungarians have every right to determine their own destiny and keep their farmland and other resources for their own people?

mark, your comments on the palestian israeli cinflict shows that you are not quite up to date
but then this is not your hometurf..
Anyway your equation attemps are somehow "soft"
and i do not understand why you try so hard??

But: Hungarians have the full right and duty to
determine their own future.the question is only
why you outcast hungarians which are hungarian jews,gypies and gays for example.They are here
and for good.To deny them full integration is somehow a shot in your own foot.
Who or what exactly is a Hungarian in your view?
Do you know waht you are,where you came from and what your values are? What is your vision of Hungary besides the blah blah hungary for hungarians?

@judas
You an Israeli speaking on behalf of Jews in Hungary remind me of Hitler speaking for Germans in other countries. Are they Hungarians or Israelis? I do not believe that the definition of a Hungarian posted here a few times would exclude anyone who calls himself a Hungarian, loyal to Hungary and act in Hungary’s best interests.
In Hungarian context, I see Vámos as Hungarian while I see Lendvai as a Communist Jew. In American context, I see Dr. Finkelstein as an American and as a great human being while I do not see an American in Dershowitz but instead a Zionazi driven by blind hatred for all he sees as not unconditionally 200% for Israel. The irony is that I consider Dershowitz and not Dr. Finkelstein a threat to Israel and world peace. The irony is that while Dr. Finkelstein’s parents spent time in Hitler’s concentration camps Dershowitz is just a hatemonger.
As you can see, there is room for all kinds of people as long as they meet all three of above criteria.

Mark-Beautifully put but I fear wasted on these,the blind zionist hatred and eagerness to copy the worst of Nazism can only lead to one conclusion,for history will repeat itself.I only fear for the millions of innocents of all colour and creed caught up in this crazy journey to self destruction.
To quote Rommel in July 1944 staff conference after the Normandy retreat-'make peace whilst you still can!'Of course he was ignored too....

‘To protect its citizen, like any other country would do, Israel hit back several times. Very restrained however to avoid civilian casulties.’

Indeed, judas, ‘very restrained’. Remember ‘Operation Cast Lead’? That, I take it, is ‘restrained’ in your sense of the word? But why am I writing you, an old Jew who has nothing better to do than fall over himself to malign Hungarians? Perhaps it is only to let you know that I think you are a pointless little blot.

PS: Do you feel that the time is nearing (JOBBIK is coming)when your Hungary-based loot will dry up?

Vona Gabor has been saying this ever since the
beginning of the Jobbik party, appears it has taken
this stupid Neo Liberal site this many years to only
discover this now? This is belated news for Christ
sakes Erik... keep up with the latest News please!!
why do you think Jobbik are growing in Support?
People no longer believe the mainstream media trash
and they're politically savvy, Go you good
thing....Jobbik!!!

People in Hungary possess only a very short-term memory if they forgot, that it was IMF, which bailed Hungary out from a certainty of bankruptcy two years ago. IMF is not a charity organization and if it provides a loan, it will expect to get it back. A country is thus logically imposed with strong budget restrictions.

Three days divided Hungary in October 2008 from its failure to fulfill its fundamental obligations. If IMF hadn't lent 25 billions to Hungary, social system in Hungary would have collapsed and innumerous Hungarians left without basic help would have had other problems than to chase Hungarian national pride in the streets and to contemplate about the problems distant thousands kilomentres away.

Perhaps international community made a mistake, when it provided Hungary with immediate help. Maybe Hungary should have been asked to do something with its political scene first. Or to taste the consequences of its irresponsible politics for a little while, because seeing an amount of Hungarians which is able to respond to a party like Jobbik, there's not clarity that Hungarians had taken a threat of their country's failure seriously.

The International Monetary Fund was set up with an
original task of countering economic crises around
the world, as crises often know no borders, while
policies intended to contain them do.

Without wasting your time with necessary
statistics and important historical episodes, I’ll
get down to pointing out why the IMF is a subject
of much dissatisfaction among the friendly rioting
community.

1. The IMF is a bastion of indulgent free-market
policies. They have systematically proposed
contractionary fiscal policies at times of crises
to developing nations, while proposing
expantionary policies to advanced nations. They
still don’t know why they failed with the former.

2. They propose capital-market liberalization on
ideological grounds, despite having enough
empirical evidence to show that this only
increases instability and makes crises more
imminent.

3. They preach these policies as gospel, and leave
no room for debate. There have been cosmetic
changes, but no real directional changes.

4. The voting pattern is faulty and skewed.
Advanced nations get proportionally more votes
than poor nations, despite the fact that the poor
nations are impacted more by the actions of the
IMF than rich countries.
cont

5. Special interest groups, such as private
capital firms and banks have a big say in policy
making.

6. Trade ministers of various nations attend their
meetings, not the finance ministers, not the
environment ministers, not the labour ministers,
despite the fact that policies that result affect
national economies, the environment, and workers.

7. There is no transparency to speak of. Okay, a
little maybe. Whenever there are leaks, the IMF
has to come out with clarifications. Hey, that
counts to something! Special Interest Groups can
hence have their way, as can corrupt and
ideologically inclined bureaucrats.

8. Officials are selected to be a part of IMF only
if they are true to the free-market ideology, not
by their skills and qualifications. Those are
secondary facets.

9. They haven’t learnt from mistakes of the past.
They repeated mistakes of the East-Asian crisis on
other nations, especially on the Latin-American
crisis that followed. In other words, they are
systematically stupid.

10. Their surveillance reports focus on inflation
rather than on unemployment or growth.

11. Their bailout packages have failed. They
historically put unrealistic conditions on their
bailouts, and these bailouts were been milked by
private firms. These bailouts caused moral hazards
and risky behaviour. And importantly, their
bailouts did not create liquidity during crises.

cont

12. Post the East-Asian crisis handling that failed
miserably, there were a few reforms that were
proposed. They were resisted by the IMF. The only
ones that were accepted were the ones that gave
greater powers to the IMF and greater obligations to
developing countries.

This of course, is only one side of the IMF coin.
The other side has George Washington’s head on it.
So fellow dummies, I hope you could comprehend the
source of the itch that bothers our polite comrades
with Molotov cocktails as their preferred alcoholic
beverage.

A Dummies Guide to Why the IMF Screws Up

Haiti's vulnerability to natural disasters, its
food shortages, poverty, deforestation and lack of
infrastructure, are not accidental. To say that it
is the poorest nation in the Western hemisphere is
to miss the point; Haiti was made poor--by France,
the United States, Great Britain, other Western
powers and by the IMF and the World Bank.

Now, in its attempts to help Haiti, the IMF is
pursuing the same kinds of policies that made
Haiti a geography of precariousness even before
the quake. To great fanfare, the IMF announced a
new $100 million loan to Haiti on Thursday. In one
crucial way, the loan is a good thing; Haiti is in
dire straits and needs a massive cash infusion.
But the new loan was made through the IMF's
extended credit facility, to which Haiti already
has $165 million in debt. Debt relief activists
tell me that these loans came with conditions,
including raising prices for electricity, refusing
pay increases to all public employees except those
making minimum wage and keeping inflation low.
They say that the new loans would impose these
same conditions. In other words, in the face of
this latest tragedy, the IMF is still using crisis
and debt as leverage to compel neoliberal reforms.

cont

For Haiti, this is history repeated. As historians
have documented, the impoverishment of Haiti began
in the earliest decades of its independence, when
Haiti's slaves and free gens de couleur rallied to
liberate the country from the French in 1804. But
by 1825, Haiti was living under a new kind of
bondage--external debt. In order to keep the
French and other Western powers from enforcing an
embargo, it agreed to pay 150 million francs in
reparations to French slave owners (yes, that's
right, freed slaves were forced to compensate
their former masters for their liberty). In order
to do that, they borrowed millions from French
banks and then from the US and Germany. As Alex
von Tunzelmann pointed out, "by 1900, it [Haiti]
was spending 80 percent of its national budget on
repayments."

It took Haiti 122 years, but in 1947 the nation
paid off about 60 percent, or 90 million francs,
of this debt (it was able to negotiate a reduction
in 1838). In 2003, then-President Aristide called
on France to pay restitution for this sum--valued
in 2003 dollars at over $21 billion. A few months
later, he was ousted in a coup d'etat; he claims
he left the country under armed pressure from the
US.

IMF to Haiti: Freeze Public Wages
by Richard Kim

Funny thing about that last one, if only someone might have predicted it... oh that's right. I did.
bobscountrybunker at January 26, 2010 6:08 PM
----
As I remember your 'prediction' was that a lot of out-of-Europe immigrants would come into Hungary.
That has not happened.
Read the article, it is already 200.000 Afghans illegally in Greece and they are now trying to go to Western Europe.
Look at the map over Europe, Hungary is in between, and the Hungarian Border Police find some of these refugees in transit.
According to the old rules '1st country of entry into the EU' these illegal immigrants can be sent back to Greece.
The new rules are to more evenly spread illegal refugees out of different EU member states on a voluntary basis. Those who take over refugees from other member states, will get extra funds for it.
I assume you missed:
-
http://english.mti.hu/default.asp?menu=1&theme=2&cat=25&newsid=267229
-
And we are all very, very, very sorry for those nice misunderstood British Businessmen, who just had the misfortune to cheat some stupid Hungarians. You are right, they should be treated as a superior race, My God They Are British and not just some common European scum!

Law,
I'm sorry but you're completely out of line chasing smoke in a distant land.
The burden of inordinate social system and thus of the Hungary's state debt lies completely within the competence of Hungarian government and thus, in a longer term, of Hungarian electorate. Hungarian electorate has completely inapropriate views and requirements on what it can expect in comparision on what the country can afford.

But I'm sure that you have prepared another compilation on how Hungarian government is controlled by adverse foreign sources, which indebted Hungary and Hungarians againts their will.. I suggest that you save them for the use of your inmates.

I would like to fast forward to April 12 and see the Hungarian Parliament being turned into the battleground against the Evil 'ZionNazi'. Day after day we will hear Gábor Zázrivecz (aka his Cover Name 'Vona') make the one fiery speech after the other against Israel, while rest of Hungary is thinking how IMF will react to the latest signals of no payment of old loans.
The EU will consider the latest Slovak and Rumanian proposal to cut subsidies to Hungary, because Hungary do not fulfil their obligations to the other EU member states (Hungary is a net beneficiary of money to and from the EU).
The State will not have money to pay salaries, when it was discovered that Gyurcsany only owned a 3-room flat in Roszadomb, that his mother live in, so he could not pay the back any money.
-
But hey, who his coming with new money?
Of course Put In sending his special envoy Roman Arkadyevich Abramovich or Рома́н Арка́дьевич Абрамо́вич as Hungarians need to start to educate themselves in Russian again.
Abramovich being Put In's favourite Jew, will back up his bid with funds from different Israeli conglomerates.
One has to be impressed, as usual, with good old Russian Intelligence work. Since the Tsar-time they have been the world-leader, with a bit low-period after Stalin, but Put In got it working again.
This whole Black-Op with Gábor Zázrivecz could be the best operation since Philby. And how cheap they will get Hungary for also, it will be totally bankrupt rather fast.

So now not only are Swedes Hungarians, but Afghans are not from outside of Europe. Man it must be some crazy ride living in your head.

Ricsi: “Mark-Beautifully put but I fear wasted on these,the blind zionist hatred and eagerness to copy the worst of Nazism…”

I agree with you that it does not do any good to reason with “blind zionist hatred” but there are others who read this list also. The likes of Viking and wolfie are here for only one purpose and that is to provoke Hungarians into reacting to their never-ending lies and slime with some outbursts. Let me assure you my friend that they live for the moments when they can get those outbursts with their provocations and parade it as if that is what we stood for. Never mind that the outburst was preceded with countless disgusting provocations, even more disgusting forgeries. What counts for them is that outburst that they repeat and celebrate as some trophy. Always keep your cool my friend.

@ Mark;

Saying that Viking is here to provoke...Nah, I really do believe, that he is from a dark and scary place with enchanted creatures.

As for Wolfie, that boy has little to NO molecular movement between his ears, and the way I see it, his IQ unfortunately does not exceed that of celery. Again, that's just my opinion.

Hold down the Fort and I will see you in a bit. And remember, don't get too......:))

Z

mark,
1)I never pretended to speak "On behalf" of
hungarian jews...I wonder where u take that from.

I take liberty though to express my opinion
and ask questions.

I am though a little bit disappointed with
your answers concerning Who or what constitutes
to be a hungarian.It is somewhat watery...?

So if i understand you right basically it is in the eye of the beholder to decide when somebody or group is hungarian and when not ????

or did i miss something...?

Vona also announce that Jooobik was diametrically opposed to the number 14, the color yellow, and the smell of fresh juniper. On a side note, why do any of you engage Mark anyway, it's futile.

c'est moi,

why we refer to mark and friends at all...

First and foremost it is highly enjoyable to get the best out of them and sometimes they really
use freedom of speech to "perfection".
Secondly it is a kind of therapy. Those depressed
hate-mongers are really a case study for learning
about the mind set of jobbik followers and MG
lovers.

and only wait how they will comment on
israeli FM Avigdor Lieberman's current visit
to hungary. I am already exited...

What would you like to tell us about the terrorist, racist, nazi, criminal avigdor lieberman?

@Murky:

Maybe someone should tell Mr. Lieberman about you and your rantings ?

Hello Everyone!

I see in this event - ‘Vona said they would come into conflict with the IMF, United States and Israel in their bid to reform Hungary's finances and economy’ - a perfect capture of why we love Jobbik. And I shall spell the reason out. Vona here voiced the essence of our nationalism. That nationalism is a peculiarly Hungarian one. It is not exclusive (we accept as Hungarian pretty much anyone who says he/she is), it does not claim our superiority on any ground, but it is intrepid and action-ready. We are not slow to challenge the coloniser and ransacker. We did it to the Turks, the Austrians and the Soviets. Sure, we took a drubbing every time, but then, our adversary was smacked about enough to know that it was dealing with a determined people. But in the end, we got what we wanted. The Turks left Hungary, the Austrians accommodated us very liberally in a dual monarchy, after 1956 we never saw another Rákosi, our gulás communism, which had us living far better than anyone in the communist bloc, was not long in coming.

Jobbik resonates our brand of nationalism beautifully. Jobbik is ‘us’. We idealise ourselves in terms of our ‘bátorság, tisztesség, büszkeség’, (daring, decency, pride), and unite in our love of our homeland. We will throw off the occupier. Recall that we dared to confront the Soviet army in 1956. The world marvelled at that. Confronting ‘the IMF, United States and Israel’ is a slam-dunk in comparison.

You are our house flabby old STASI-wolfie. It is your job to go after people.

(cont.) The funny thing is that we do not necessarily make the reasonable chance of our victory a pre-condition of our willingness to confront the threat we perceive. That is what has held us together as a nation, against the odds.

Judas, you do not even begin to understand us, as this comment of yours betrays: ‘and only wait how they will comment on israeli FM Avigdor Lieberman's current visit to hungary’- January 27, 2010 3:55 PM. If by ‘they’ you mean Jobbik, I can tell you that Jobbik will not even notice this very unsavoury little man. But it might, like the rest of us, indulge a smirk. His visit does no good to the MSZP’s already woeful electoral standing.

Dear Elle,
I nominate your post the best post of the week.
Thank you!

@Murky:

In november I was your favorite Nazi, in december I was a jew and now I'm a stasi agent - well it seems I'm developing fast, thanks to your efforts ...

PS:

Do you have any other interests in Hungary besides those that we might talk about ?

@judas "Those depressed hate-mongers are really a case study for learning about the mind set of jobbik followers and MG lovers." Just because they cup the balls and lick the shaft, I wouldn't call them lovers because they have their price...this makes them whores.

Thank you, Mark. Now, if you will excuse my opportunism, I want to ask a favour. Will you, as your time allows, give me your thoughts on what constitutes Hungarian nationalism? I confess that this is the subject of a part of my academic work.

I shall bookmark this page, and come back to it as soon as time permits.

Meanwhile, Isten Veled.

I am not an expert on definitions. I can tell you how I feel about things but that would not be good enough for your academic work. Wanting Hungarians to be free and independent in their own country is Hungarian nationalism. If you can read Hungarian, I would recommend the first verse of Hungarian Anthem. It reflects the love of our people and our humble prayer to God for a better future. None of these is good enough for your academic work. If you stay around for a while and can put up with the sliming that goes on here, you might see Bob or Pava post here. They are very knowledgeable and could provide you with a definition more suitable for your work than my definition.

@ Mark;

Actually, Elle has been here before, just not lately.

@ Elle

Welcome back!

@elle
What is nationalism? Does Hungarian nationalism vary from, say, German nationalism?
What was National Socialism?
(A contradiction in terms on first sight.)
Can the term ”nationalism” in fact be defined insofar as it would meet with common approval?
P:S:
Mark has passed the buck already. I don’t blame him.
Nevertheless, it would be interesting to hear other people's thoughts on the subject.

@Justasking: As anyone who has spent time on this site will know Elle = Sophie = ..., who stormed off when people started writing under one of her pseudonyms/usernames and occasionally pops back under one or another name (Marksupporter being a recent one). The idea that Sophie based in the UK is writing a thesis on Hungarian nationalism is laughable. Just and excuse to pollute this site in more of the same from Mark. And list to the little prince 'I am not an expert on definitions'. Go away, you're kidding right?

p.s. I have a good memory, so used no fancy crap to work out what is obvious to me, but other people think is appalling voodoo.

p.p.s. Having said that I came across a great trick today to find out which sites people have been to and are using outside of the one they are on. It's so simple it's brilliant.

Elle,

if you are studying Nationalism academically, you are probably familiar with the source I'm about to post, and are probably more interested in what is meant 'vernacularly' by Hungarian Nationalism. However, I still feel this might provoke something more concrete:

"..nationalism ... can signify:
1) the whole process of forming and maintaining nations and nation-states
2) a consciousness of belonging to a nation, together with sentiments and aspirations for its security and prosperity
3) a language and symbolism of the 'nation' and its role
4) an ideology, including a cultural doctrine of nations and the national will and prescriptions for the realization of national aspirations and the national will
5) a social and political movement to achieve the goals of the nation and realize its national will."
- Anthony D. Smith, National Identity, pg 72

(cont.)

Elle, (cont)

We get lots of 2) and 3) on this site - fairly harmless if you're not Jewish or a gypsy. But I find 1) the most interesting.

I've studied nationalism from a linguistics perspective, and although Hungary in one of the oldest national states in Europe, the processes through which Hungarian came to be the national language are quite similar to the process through which national languages are adopted in post-colonial, multi-cultural situations. This process in turn alienated old Hungary's minorities which contributed to the butchering of old Hungary at Trianon.

The ultimate tragedy of Hungarian nationalism is that when an independent Hungarian state finally emerged after hundreds of years of occupation, colonisation and dominion it was in a territorial form that bore little resemblance to the historical nation. It was then pretty immediately again under occupation - Soviet this time. Hungary hasn't had much opportunity to be a nation in the modern sense, and it now has to make its way in a world which is again moving to supra-national forms of government. I can see both why Hungarians are so attracted to nationalism, and how it is a course that is still fraught with danger.

@ Vandor;

I could care less, who writes under what. All that I care about is what I do, and that's writing under this one handle of "justasking".

Quite impressive, this new found knowledge that you posses.

So, can I assume that you know, that I am in the process of renovating my upstairs bathroom? If so, I could use some help. Regarding the bathroom fixtures, should I stick to the contemporary look, or shake it up a bit and switch it all over to a ultra modern look? Should I go with the brushed nickel finish or the pressed brass, espresso brown finish?

What is a girl to do!!

PS: Exhibiting symptoms similar to that of a peeping-tom, do you ever feel that you might have some issues? I mean some serious issues? As in, book some time with Cinaed issues?

@Justasking: Receiving psychological profile from trailer trash is new for me, so I'll not respond directly to your probing analysis of my mental/social state. The only reason I tell you is to make it clear to all you clueless f**kers that collecting information on anyone is really easy and very common. I also tell it to you all because the half computer literate such as Ricsi think they understand how some of the technologies that are used over the internet work and what is and isn't possible. But most of all I tell it to you lot because you mean absolutely *nothing* to me. I really couldn't care less about shit like you. If I did, you would know f**k all about what I know. The only person here who appears to understand these things well enough is Pávaszem, which is telling in itself.

So now not only are Swedes Hungarians, but Afghans are not from outside of Europe
bobscountrybunker at January 27, 2010 12:11 AM
---
Your original complaint was still that the EU with the Lisbon Treaty would import refugees from outside Europe to Hungary. Your ultimate proof was that the UN moved one department from Switzerland to Hungary.
The Afghan refugees you refer to now have been in Greece for some time and do not belong to any 'new import' that you claimed originally would flood Europe and Hungary especial.

Please, Vándorló, don't tell these white trash jobos too much about how the 'net works, they might find someone to help them use it too ...

Saying that Viking is here to provoke...Nah, I really do believe, that he is from a dark and scary place with enchanted creatures
...
Hold down the Fort and I will see you in a bit
justasking at January 27, 2010 8:47 AM
---
Yes, actually I am sitting in the Mossad office in Canada (your neighbour from hell that claims he is Slovak, but we 'Real Hungarians' knows that Slovakia does not exist of course)
-
Interesting that you will "see" Mark "in a bit". Is Mark your husband, or maybe the 'US Lover'?
Maybe Van can shred some light on this?

@ Viking;

When I say "see", I mean it metaphorically.

As for suggesting that Mark and I maybe an item...nope. So the coast is clear for you, if that was what you were really getting at. Although, I don't think your chances are all that great.

@ Vandor;

Judging by the amount of asterisks in your last post, I gather I'm on my own regarding the bathroom fixtures?

I think that by making such a statment Mr.Vona missed his VONAT!(Train).

@justasking. You are not on your own, mate. Vándorló is colour blind so he couldn't help you anyway. My advice is keep it simple: 15 litres of blue lagoon emulsion paint, standard bath fittings, brass if poss, multi-functional shower unit with in-built toaster, radio, kettle etc.
Jacuzzi - optional.
Get the wife (or partner) to slap the paint on whilst you do battle with your adversaries on polygon.hu.
PS
I was going to post something meaningful about "nationalism" but I've come up with this drivel instead. You can see how transparent I am?

@ Mark: Thanks again, Mark. Actually, you have given me exactly what I am looking for re Hungarian nationalism. Of course, I know and love the Himnusz, as we all do. Your reference to it alerted me to a facet of the expression of Hungarian nationalism that I have not been thinking about. That is, we do tend to huddle sometimes, to feel the tragedies we’ve known, and to plead for a better future. This is very significant. I’ve been too concentrated on our expression of nationalism as defiance: ‘Magyarok istenére esküszünk, ssküszünk, hogy rabok tovább nem leszünk’ (We swear by the God of the Hungarians, we swear, that slaves we shall no longer be. There are rather better translations!)

@ justasking: Hi! And thanks.

@Rhinegold: I have a feeling that Hungarian nationalism is unique for the content and constancy of its expression. Cf the vastly different, triumphal ones: Rule Brtiannia, Britannai rules the waves; Avant, enfants de la Patrie. That element is entirely absent from Hungarian nationalism. German nationalism is not voicing itself at all, except very occasionally, surreptitiously, sotto voce. But more importantly, the latter three nationalisms have changed over time, and their contemporary footing is uncertain. Not so Hungarian nationalism, which has been constant for the past century at least, and is exultant today.

(cont) @ Sophist: What you say is interesting and valid. Expressions of nationalism have fallen almost silent in most parts of the ‘developed’ world. But not for us, the Hungarians! I can see why you see danger in that. But there is danger also in the sense of nationalism that cannot find its voice (e.g. the present English one) except as surly frustration. And you are right regarding our state-status problem. That has bred a unusual territorial ambition into our kind of nationalism: we want back what they’ve taken, not to take theirs.

Thank you, all of you, for your comments. Work forces me to absent myself for a few weeks. But I shall re-visit, in the hope that other people have spoken, or spoken again.

I'd say that US nationalism is as strong as ever, there is growing nationalism in Australia (which is not a 'good' kind of nationalism), Russian nationalism seems to be growing and reasserting itself.Interesting comment though on the comparison with 'Rule Britannia'.It would seem that the territorial aspirations of Hungarian nationalists is to reclaim the pre-Trianon areas, but beyond that, not much more.What worries me is not the territorial ambitions, but what they declare their interests to be within these borders.
Sophist...will post again in a second regarding your comments.

Sophist.I think I see what you mean about the difference between Magyars and Anglos in terms of their relative need to be close to their geographical and familial roots.I'm not sure I agree with the assertion that this means that these ties mean more to Hungarians than to others.I think instead it is a difference in cultural outlook of what independence and adulthood mean.Anglos have a long history of travel and exploration, but it doesn't mean they don't still have strong ties to their homelands.This was evident even in the earlier years of nationhood of former colonies.For example, in WWI, many Australians felt that they were still British and that since the motherland was at war, that we should rise to her aid.
I also think that there are many places where the ties you mention are very strong and the decision to leave causes great distress.An example is rural areas where some families have lived for generations, but tough economic times are forcing them off the land.These people suffer greatly with depression and high rates of suicide after being dislocated from their communities.Although I am 7 hours flying time from my family, it doesn't mean they are any less important.My mum cries on the phone often when we speak because she misses us, but she understands that we need to go where the opportunities are.She also knows that by letting us go, we will always eventually return; which I think is different to the fear that Hungarians have of losing their children forever.

Reading the various responses to Elle’s question on Hungarians nationalism one could not miss the usual provocateurs and slime balls that had nothing to add besides their perversion typical of these people. Maybe we should be getting used to these people looking at others through their own perversion but I still get offended by them. There is nothing surprising about these disgusting “people” snooping around other posters. They are so afraid of truth that they will spare no effort to identify those they do not like, harass them, their families, parents, spouses and of course their children with threats and obscenities. Why are these “people” surprised at not being loved by those they harass?

Mark,
Instead of speaking in typical general populist form, maybe you could point out which 'definitions' that are wrong, then you seem to have the answer to anything 'Hungarian'.
Because in Jobbik-land there can never ever be a difference in opinion or a discussion, right?
There will be the Great Uniform Consensus defined by the Great Leader (fill in name here then it will change due to in-party fighting)

The glorification of being a "nationalist" for its own sake does not inspire confidence nor a yearning to be declared as one.
My parents, friends, and family, suffered greatly during two world wars. Some were killed, others lost their homes - bombed to the ground.
Children were evacuated for 2-4 years having little contact with families.
Men spent five years battling in trenches and wives had to sit and wait, and wait, and wait.
Hitler's idea of National Socialism was partly responsible for all this.
Nationalism and Nationalist ideas tend to get out of control if you would accept Hitler, Mussolini, and Napoleon as examples.
Hungary has suffered because of Communist and Nationalist ideas in the past. Its leaders have been atrociously bad and the people have suffered as a consequence. Even to this day the current government has led the people up the garden path to economic ruin.
Those who wish to preach about Hungarian nationalism from a far off land under the guise of completing a dissertation are misguided and unaware of what makes the world go round.

Elle,

this might be interesting for you:

http://esbalogh.typepad.com/hungarianspectrum/2010/01/changing-nationalities-a-natural-development-in-eastcentral-europe.html

Cin,

"I'm not sure I agree with the assertion that this means that these ties mean more to Hungarians than to others"

I think the word I prefer is 'value' rather than 'mean'. Your mother illustrates this difference:

"My mum cries on the phone often when we speak because she misses us, but she understands that we need to go where the opportunities are"

However strong her feelings, she thinks that following your opportunuities is more important (valuable) than staying with your family.

"Vona said they would come into conflict with the IMF, United States and Israel "et al" in their bid to reform Hungary's finances and economy"
I am not sure I would vote for someone that has declared half the world the enemy before attempting to win an election. If Vona and his party by some miraculous chance did win -would
they then declare the other half of the world
the enemy too?

Vona never spoke of enemies. Universal has to be Viking or Viking’s twin because the distortions are very typical for his ilk.
Hitler would be proud of Universal/Viking...

@Mark: Quite right, you do't need to make anything else extra up the nonsense he spouts is enough to go on: "...were Jobbik to come to power, they would ban the commercial television stations RTL Klub and TV2..." So he would interfere with commercial businesses and free speech on what grounds? And then there is all the creative book-keeping. Jobbik have already massively failed to meet their own benchmarks. Where is the openness, transparency, honesty, honour? Pathetic.

p.s. Please stop overusing using the word ilk. Try another: likes, line, lineage, lot, nature, number, pedigree, progeny, race, sort, species, stamp, stock, strain, stripe, type, variety

Communist MSZP/SZDSZ officials are being arrested in droves for stealing from the public and we have some morons who are whining about late campaign finance filing.

So many of these MSZP/SZDSZ/MDF politicians are trying to get into the Parliament to avoid sent to jail that it is getting to be a shoving contest about who gets on the list. I have some bad news for them even if they managed to get into the Parliament they will not be able to hide from justice because the new majority will probably hand them over to the cops. The only good Communist is a Communist in jail.

So many of these MSZP/SZDSZ/MDF politicians are trying to get into the Parliament to avoid sent to jail
Mark at January 30, 2010 7:27 PM
---
There are 3 problems with that statement:
1) Which Mark himself corrects a few lines down, that a qualified majority can remove a MPs right to immunity against prosecution.
.
2) This is just though a delay in prosecution and the prosecution can be active the day the MP is no longer an MP (for whatever reason)
.
3) Then it would be more honourable by Mark to include Fidesz on that list, then they were in Government when one of the 2 Gripen-deals happened. If one was corrupt, why was not the other?
As usual no proofs, just a lot of opinions.

I am very impressed! In fact delighted. Poltical issues getting discussed. Keep it up fellas...the good work I mean!
I have one further comment: can the next government introduce new legislation that will remove completely the protection from prosecution
that politicians currently enjoy? Then we can fill up the jails with the scheming bedwetters.

One country Jobbik promises *not* to be in conflict with is Russia
And today's news from Russia:
-
http://www.theotherrussia.org/2010/01/31/160-detained-at-freedom-of-assembly-rally/
-
This month marked the seventh time that the rallies were denied sanction by the Moscow authorities
Coalition leaders began holding the rallies in 2009 on the 31st of every month with that date , in defence of the 31st article of the Russian constitution guaranteeing freedom of assembly
Each has been banned under a variety of pretexts, but organizers have held the protests nevertheless
This is Jobbik-land

It is not good politics to draw up a hate list
of other countries and organizations just before a general election. It is the equivalent of 'shooting yourself in the foot'!
Russia and Turkey seem strange bedfellows for Hungary?
Russian gas is expensive. What sort of trade is Vona expecting to do with Turkey, China, and Russia?
Chinese imports are dreadful. Cheap - Yes. But they last as long as a politician's promise.
Russia is riddled with corruption and it's the equivalent of the masonic's handshake attempting
to trade with them.
Joibbik will have to find out the hard way. Where's the palinka? (again).

@ Kereskedelem

Do you think the comment goes with the territory?

The philosophy that "we are an an entity of our own, we don't give a shit what other countries think, we are self sufficient, we are strong, blah, blah, blah?" - Just a thought, not sure

BTW, once again Canada is not considered important and omitted from the list. I am really insulted and feel slighted.

@kereskedelem
As usual, the article and its heading are misleading. No big surprise here. Jobbik is smart to anticipate conflict with those who wish to take over Hungary’s resources at a fraction of their value and turn Hungarians into slaves. Conflict does not mean enemy but that is Political Pest is for, to distort things. It will be very smart for Jobbik and beneficial for Hungary not to put all eggs in one basket and get some negotiating leverage with trading partners.
Unlike most of us posting here, most Jobbik supporters and most Hungarians have only one country, they owe alliance to only one country, and that is Hungary. Foreigners, dual citizens and those who are citizens of countries who have been stealing Hungarians blind these past 20 years should temper their criticism and worry about the politics of their own country instead.

Very interesting Mark. Broad, sweeping statements,
that neither address nor answer my questions. Is it not the freedom of speech that we now all enjoy and that my family and others fought for that is under scrutiny?
Has the list just grown longer for Jobbik to include:interfering foreign busybodies, as well?
I am sure you enjoy a pint in the UK. Cheers!

It will be very smart for Jobbik and beneficial for Hungary not to put all eggs in one basket and get some negotiating leverage with trading partners
Mark at February 1, 2010 5:21 PM
---
And what are all these
'Made in Hungary, by 100% Hungarian-owned companies'
products that so many "trading partners" would fall over themselves to 'negotiate' about?
Trianon-stickers?

What the nation wants from the next government?

http://ajanlomneked.webege.com/content/választás-2010-mit-kíván-magyar-nép

Hi Istvan,
“What the nation wants from the next government?”
I looked at the site but did not find much information. Will look later. The forum has some interesting topics. Not sure what to think.
Thanks.

Sophist: I had a look at your link: http://esbalogh.typepad.com/hungarianspectrum/2010/01/changing-nationalities-a-natural-development-in-eastcentral-europe.html.

I cannot work out why Eva Balogh rests so heavily on the surname business, despite her own claim that it is immaterial. Take this sentence of hers, for instance, in which she refers to what she (wrongly) claims is Vona Gábor’s change of surname:
'Not that it really matters That doesn't make him better or worse. But, of course, the fact that he felt he had to change his name to Vona tells a lot about him.'
Why her obscurantist insistence that Vona changed his name? She knows that Vona’s boodline name was Vona: Vona Gábor’s father was the son of his grandfather, also called Vona Gábor. The name ‘Zázrivecz’, Vona Gábor’s surname at birth, came into his family when Vona’s grandmother re-married after her first husband’s death in battle (WWII), and her second husband adopted Vona Gábor’s father. Quite obviously, Vona Gábor the JOBBIK President REVERTED to his bloodline name; he did not change it.

(cont.) In any case, Eva Balogh trips herself twice in her (above-quoted) sentences: (i) If this name issue is not something that ‘really matters’, as she says, then ipso factor it is incapable of telling ‘a lot about him’. You can hardly have it both ways; (ii) if it is something that ‘tells a lot about him’, then it certainly does not tell against him, as she implies. Indeed, it speaks poignantly for Vona’s loyalty to his bloodline, and for his loyalty to his grandfather, who died a fighting soldier.
You know, if Eva Balogh were to look into her own surname at birth, I’m sure she would find that it is not her bloodline’s surname. She would find a genuine instance of name change there!
All that aside, it seems to me that how individuals change nationalities, or how nationality changes generally, does not yield insight into the nature of any brand of nationalism. Nationalism, I ague, is the COLLECTIVE expression of national consciousness. It may or may not vary over time. It is not a rostrum for individual self-expression. The latter, I argue again, is more aptly called ‘patriotism’.

Just an 'aside' to my last post: I know there is a published study of Hungary's genetic composition. I had it some years ago, but set it aside for close study after a rapid reading -- then lost it. Can someone please give me a reference to it? (Pávaszem, did you make a reference some while ago to the strong genetic connection between (some parts of) us and the Iranians? It you did, could you please give me your source for this?)

@Elle: As you may know the field of genetic is increasingly accelerating following the various genome mapping programs. Some references that gives the broad outline would be:
1. Az Európai Népek Eredete by Kalevi Wiik
2. A Magyarság Genetikája, Dr. Czeizel Endre
3. 'Genetikai átjáró: különbözőségünk története' Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza (HVG könyv)
Other links
4. scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2008/08/genetic_map_of_europe_genes_va.php
5. http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2008/08/18/306-the-genetic-map-of-europe/

Plenty of other stuff out there.
p.s. I'm not interested in hearing Laws rants about these things so kindly fuck off and keep your 'opinions' to yourself. I'm merely responding to Elle/Sophie's request for info.

Vándorló, thank you! I recognise the name 'Czeizel'.
He is the chap I'm looking for, I think. Thanks also for the other refs.

@ Elle

We often interpret statements subjectively.

Re: "Indeed, it speaks poignantly for Vona’s loyalty to his bloodline, and for his loyalty to his grandfather, who died a fighting soldier."

That's exactly how I would interpret the name change under normal circumstances. However, the Zazrivecz last name was good enough for GV's Father and good enough for GV until he became a JOBBIK leader that emphasized the "Tiszta Magyar" ideal and now one is stuck with a not so Tiszta Magyar name.

So for me, Eva Balogh's comment meant that a name change in itself means nothing but in this particular case there might be more to the story than simple "loyalty" to the Grandfather.

Moreover, GV's on Dad was "proud" of his son's decision - Gee, the Dad had a lifetime to reclaim his own Father's name - how come he didn't do it?

BTW - "You know, if Eva Balogh were to look into her own surname at birth, I’m sure she would find that it is not her bloodline’s surname. She would find a genuine instance of name change there!"

What exactly are you implying? Why not come out and say it?

I was thinking of looking into my own maiden name - I may find out I am really Jewish or Roma. Better not. I may have to make plans to take over Hungary or kill my neighbours

Mark and friends,
i miss in all these postings still a comprehensive
vision how you want hungary to look like in the next lets say 20 years.
I only learned till now want you do not want,what you want to exclude.
Even though it seems much easier to express what you are against it is not a recipe for the future.
To try to continue there where Horty left off is
somehow uncreative and yesterdays paper.
Is there a possiblity to get a more detailed
"road map" for hungary?

@Vandorlo, who wrote: "p.p.s. Having said that I came across a great trick today to find out which sites people have been to and are using outside of the one they are on. It's so simple it's brilliant."...

I would love to hear the trick if you feel like sharing it! If there's any way you can encrypt this so that the hatemongers here can NOT read your post that would be even better...

Very interesting the genetic maps of Europe as well... If you look very closely at a map of Texas you can see the little "dipsh*t" icon that corresponds to one of our prominent posters here, but don't worry, he's not *really* from Europe anyway... Just likes telling people in Europe what to do...

Thanks in advance V -- and keep up the good work!

Prominent poster from Texas? Why would he/she be interested in Hungary and posting on this forum?
And, why consider them as "prominent"?
I don't like the idea of "veiled" threats against posters no matter how unacceptable their views might be.
Analyse and contradict and debate what people are saying rather than what and where they are.

Elle,

"Nationalism, I ague, is the COLLECTIVE expression of national consciousness. It may or may not vary over time. It is not a rostrum for individual self-expression. The latter, I argue again, is more aptly called ‘patriotism’."

What do you mean by COLLECTIVE here? Most ordinary langauge definitions of 'collective' are in terms of individuals, i.e (from OALD) "done or shared by all members of a group of people" (members are indivuals). Do you mean something like Jung's idea of a collective unconscious, which is again defined in terms of indidvuals but puts the issue beyond the reach of individual choice? i.e. You can't choose a national consciousness.

I think I might be sympathetic to this approach, I can't think of myself apart from my Englishness (an ethnic national consciousness), but think my Britishness (a civic national consciousness) is pretty superficial). But where does this leave entirely civic national consciousneses? (a particular problem for the Anglo-sphere, is American, Canadian or South African as deep as identity as English)

@Sophist: But the corollary of individualist nationalism is the Joycean nationalism ('to forge in the smithy of ones sole the uncreated conscience of one's race')
"– Look here, Cranly, he said. You have asked me what I would do and what I would not do. I will tell you what I will do and what I will not do. I will not serve that in which I no longer believe, whether it call itself my home, my fatherland, or my church: and I will try to express myself in some mode of life or art as freely as I can and as wholly as I can, using my defence the only arms I allow myself to use – silence, exile, and cunning."

@Viewpoint: Logically it doesn't matter where a person is, unless that is the subject of the discussion and part of the context in which the discussion is placed, particularly when a person tries to misrepresent their relationship to the discussion at hand and their experiences. Such is the case with a number of contributors who use 'we' 'here' etc.. when they neither share the costs nor burdens of the suggestions they propose, nor are they 'here' and so cannot seriously be said to represent the views of those for whom they claim to speak.

@Sophist
I rather think that what you call your Englishness is what I would call your being at one with the English collective. Let me put it to you that ‘my Englishness’ is not the equivalent of ‘I am one of x number of English individuals’. That is, ‘my Englishness’ is not numerically referenced, as ‘the individuals/members of the group’ necessarily is. I am tempted to say also that there is no ‘group’ concept in ‘Englishness’ either. Rather, there is an existential concept of the English collective’s expression of its (manner of) being. That might well be what you call ‘ethnic national consciousness’, although I am not sure how you accommodate ‘ethnic’ here. ‘Collective’ in this sense, is an abstract group, not an enumerable one. (I should rather keep well away from Jung, though. His proposition of the unconscious, personal or collective, leaves me cold. But I am sympathetic with your ‘[you] can't choose a national consciousness’, although I do not think that this could be a Jungian position: it is only the unconscious that is involuntary, on his account.)
I’m afraid I have no idea of whether ‘American, Canadian or South African as deep as identity as English’. And the civic concepts of nationality are clear enough: they are neutral concepts, like juridical ones.
I do appreciate your ‘I can’t think of myself apart from my Englishness’. Ditto I about my Hungarianness.

@ olga
‘However, the Zazrivecz last name was good enough for GV's Father and good enough for GV until he became a JOBBIK leader …’
Gábor Vona resumed his bloodline’s surname when he turned eighteen. That was well before he ‘became a Jobbik leader’.
‘So for me, Eva Balogh's comment meant that a name change in itself means nothing but in this particular case there might be more to the story than simple "loyalty" to the Grandfather.’
Yes, EB did mean that. The purpose of her sly innuendo is, of course, obvious.
‘What exactly are you implying? Why not come out and say it?’
Err … I said everything directly, as far as I can see.
‘I may have to make plans to take over Hungary or kill my neighbours.’
Poor you! Should you see a doctor about this?

@Elle
Vona reverting back to his family’s original name seems the right thing to do for a young Hungarian man. There are several reasons why people change their names, some such as Balogh to hide their true identity while others to confirm their Hungarian identity. The ignorance of some people never ceases to surprise me. The same people who protest against those who believe that Hungary is for Hungarians are unable to understand that Hungarian is more than a place of birth, a bloodline or even common language.
Hungary’s most honored poet is of Serbian background, the martyrs of Arad came from several ethnic groups and the hero of Hungarian Uprising is also of mixed ethnic heritage. They are all Hungarians, honored and respected Hungarians whose memories will be honored as long as there is a Hungarian nation.
These idiots just do not understand what makes a Hungarian and what make a Hungarian hater. Eva Balogh should be the last person to criticize Vona for his name.
I believe that you are on the right track in search of Hungarian nationalism. If you would read about our Aradi vértanuk of 1848 Szabadságharc and learn about the background of the hero of Corvin köz, you would get a better handle on Hungarian nationalism and patriotism.

Vona reverting back to his family’s original name seems the right thing to do for a young Hungarian man
Mark at February 10, 2010 7:31 AM
---
We all know that Gabor Zazrivecz changed name to Vona because Zazrivecz was too Jewish sounding
This name change is only important if you want to understand what motivates these people who like to call themselves 'Hungarian', even as Mark points out they were Serbians, Slovak, Romanians etc
-
I looked up a place in Western Ukraine, close to the border to Romania and therefore not so far away from Hungary. It had specific names in Ukrainian of course the official today, but also in Hungarian, Romanian, Russ (not Russian), Polish and another language I do not remember now.
It just shows that the place changed hands during the years so many times and for so long time it made a name in all these languages
Compare that to what an Israeli Professor stated in a study many years ago (and which he was severely attacked by all Zionist groups):
"The Real Jews are the Palestinians, then farmers stay with their land, religions come and go with different occupiers"

Hello, Mark! Did you really write this: ‘If you would read about our Aradi vértanuk of 1848 Szabadságharc and learn about the background of the hero of Corvin köz, you would get a better handle on Hungarian nationalism and patriotism’? Or, to put it in a less personally-affronted way: I know every nook and cranny of Hungarian history; but I admit that there is no reason why you should assume this and not the contrary. And yes, of course: the episodes of a nation’s history that it celebrates are the builders of its national narrative, which cannot but inform the nature of its nationalism. We are particularly strong on this sort of celebration. It is to this that I attribute our more-than-a-little reckless propensity to challenge our túlerő oppressor. Active defiance is a prominent expression of our nationalism. It is, I propose, into that that JOBBIK has tapped, and it is for its having done so that we love it. This is almost an oddity on the contemporary political scene. Who but we even thinks of throwing down the gauntlet to multinationals and other kizsákmanyoló ‘investors’? We have taken a thumping for our audacity in the past. But we have also gained good ground, thanks to it. The upcoming elections will say a lot about the health of our nationalism. No other upcoming national election has this character. (I do hope to hear from you again, Mark. I shall always respond. Please attribute delay to my being on the road, or otherwise under the work hammer.)

No other upcoming national election has this character
Elle at February 10, 2010 1:30 PM
---
In several European countries the anti-immigration parties are gaining strength and they also raise their form of 'Nationalism', so I am not sure your statement really holds up
Later this year Sweden will go to national elections and the biggest anti-immigration party Sverige-Demokraterna (SD Sweden Democrats) are tipped to make it into the Swedish Parliament
SD is not Jobbik's Swedish partner, though
Jobbik's partner is National Demokraterna (ND National Democrats) which is a split from SD, when SD cleaned up their anti-Jewish act and became the most pro-Zionist party in Sweden, they are concentrating an the anti-Muslim thing
ND contains the normal riff-raff of neo-Nazis and lost skinheads, so it is no wonder why Jobbik chose them
Or more correct, due to Jobbik's neo-Nazi ties SD refuses to work with them
So, to claim that 'Nationalism' exists more in Hungary than in other European countries is probably a bit over the top

@ Elle

Eva B was “sly”?? Seemed pretty up- front to me. When I read about the name change a couple of months ago, it made perfect sense that someone advocating a “Tiszta Magyar” platform does not want a foreign sounding name. There was no need to read EB to come to the same conclusion.

What exactly do you mean by “reverting” to a bloodline name? Are you saying he did not change his name legally though the courts and just uses the name Vona ? If so, you are correct and I apologize for doubting you.

While I would not say you were “sly” you are far from “direct” I still have no idea what you and Mark are implying about E..Balogh’s name. Pavaszem claims she is a closet antisemite ; so according to these innuendos, is she Roma, Slovak or which “enemy group” is she alleged to belong to?

Viking wrote that the name “Zazrivecz” was Jewish sounding - Jaj!

BTW, what is this seemingly ingrained national obsession and useless diversion from important issues to care about people’s ancestors? How does it impact on the upcoming elections and the present problems facing Hungary? (I do know the
answer. "It doesn't")

Thanks for the suggestion that I may want to see a doctor – however if you read my posting correctly, I chose not to look into “ the history of my last name”, a very common simple Hungarian last name. Not taking a chance in discovering that I may be Jewish or Roma and then be obligated to “act accordingly”

@Elle
You may know more about Hungarian history than I do. It would not surprise me since much of what I learned under Communist years from books written by “historians” pushing Communist propaganda is garbage. I would venture that most of Balogh’s dissertation is also garbage. Thankfully, we have more and more real Hungarian historians who are a lot more capable than I am to read between the lines and put together what is real Hungarian history. I do not know you and I would not be surprised if you were one of them. In any case, no offense was intended.
What I was trying to say is that the ethnic mix of some of our greatest and most patriotic poets, our Aradi vértanuk and our heroes of Uprising against the Rákosi, his gang of Jewish murderers and Soviet occupation would surprise you if you already did not know it. I marvel at the dedication to Hungary of these people of varied ethnic backgrounds. It is even more refreshing that the parents of some of our heroes and martyrs were not Hungarians but some other nationalities. It is equally disappointing that at the same time people of some other ethnic groups give us the worst Hungarian haters having lived in Hungary for many generations. Only the members of those groups could tell us why they gave us Béla Kun or “people” who scream as wild animals, “megölünk minden magyart” or scream “megölünk minden keresztényt” on Hungarian radio. How does that fit with the unselfish dedication and sacrifice of such heroes as the Armenian, Austrian, Croat, German, Serb ethnicity of, eight out of thirteen Aradi vértanuk?
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aradi_v%C3%A9rtanuk

Viewpoint wrote: " Prominent poster from Texas? Why would he/she be interested in Hungary and posting on this forum?"

Excellent question... maybe because he was tired of spending so much time on the BNP site?

@Bystander
Must be hard to part with your old KGB habits. Your ilk is famous for snooping around to find out whom the people are that you do not like. You use that information to harass and threaten people using the most vile and disgusting threats, anonymous phone calls from pay phones and anything you can conjure up in your evil hate filled minds.
Thanks for letting us know the kind of people you are.

@ Bystander;

Don't you live in the States as well? I remember a while back, that you had said you were Hungarian American, am I wrong?

@ Viewpoint;

I would say that the people that post on this site, have a connection to Hungary, in some way shape or form. So for me, I don't see the issue of where a person lives. Even if a person were not to have any connection at all, good on them for showing an interest in World politics.

There is less then a half a dozen people on this site that are actually living in Hungary: Law, Viking, Ricsi, Vandor, Elle are the ones that I know of, off the top of my head. Other posters like Olga, Bystander, Bobs, Mark, Judas, Curious George, Cinaed and myself, all live in other countries. I'm not sure where Pava or Farkas Laci live.

All the people that I just rattled off, are either Hungarian by birth, have Hungarian ancestors, married to Hungarians or have worked in Hungary.

So you see, we're just one big happy dysfunctional family, that positively adore each other, as I'm sure that you have already gathered.

@Mark who wrote: "Must be hard to part with your old KGB habits. Your ilk is famous for snooping around to find out whom the people are that you do not like. You use that information to harass and threaten people using the most vile and disgusting threats, anonymous phone calls from pay phones and anything you can conjure up in your evil hate filled minds."

Thanks for making my day, that was HILARIOUS!! Yes, I am former KGB from Sovietchunion! Yes, I like making anonymous calls from PAY phones, jsut for fun! Do pay phones even exist anymore? Also, weren't you warned about overusing the word "ilk"? Bad Mark, Bad! Thanks for giving me a great laugh today!! Seriously. Just when I thought "no way these paranoid xenophobic bizarre folks are for real... too much like cartoon characters accusing everyone left and right of working for the 'enemy'! (sound like any Stalinist types to anyone here?). Mark, YOU ARE AWESOME!! :) I'm starting to realize you must be joking all along.

@Justasking - you didn't understand my comment. I was criticizing the fact that Mark seems to have LOTS of ideas as to what Hungary must DO... "Hungary for HUNGARIANS only!" etc. stuff like that. "Hungary MUST do this and that, and JOBBIK is the only way" etc. I.e. Telling people over IN Hungary what they must do, without doing anything but giving lip-service to people overseas. As for ME...("bystander") I have been at the fringes telling NO ONE what to "do"... just asking questions like you.

Vona reverting back to his family’s original name seems the right thing to do for a young Hungarian man
Mark at February 10, 2010 7:31 AM
===
What I was trying to say is that the ethnic mix of some of our greatest and most patriotic poets, our Aradi vértanuk and our heroes of Uprising against the Rákosi, his gang of Jewish murderers
...
It is equally disappointing that at the same time people of some other ethnic groups give us the worst Hungarian haters having lived in Hungary for many generations. Only the members of those groups could tell us why they gave us Béla Kun
Mark at February 10, 2010 5:37 PM
---
Now it gets fun!
So, the Jobbik leader's name change from Gábor Zázrivecz to the more Hungarian-sounding Gábor Vona is a Good Thing(tm), but Béla Kohn changing his name to the more Hungarian-sounding Béla Kun is a Bad Thing(tm)
The same thing when Mátyás Rosenfeld changed his name into the more Hungarian-sounding Mátyás Rákosi. Rosenfeld/Rákosi was born in today's Serbia, pre-Trianon in Hungary
Béla Kun was born in Szilágycseh, Transylvania, Austria-Hungary (today Cehu Silvaniei, Romania)
Gábor Vona was born in Gyöngyös inside today's Hungary.
So, no wrong in changing to a more Hungarian-sounding name, right Mark?

Book learning is a marvelous thing. Especially when you go out into the real world and have that
knowledge turned upside down and you land on your arse.
Knights on white horses and the seventh cavalry riding remorselessly to free the people and convert them to one religion or another.
Puppet patriots and tin soldiers and those that confess they know everything about Hungarian history? They are the blabbermouths that do not listen to the cry of the people in modern-day Hungary. NO JOBS, NO MONEY, LOW WAGES, HIGH PRICES,SCANDAL, CORRUPTION, BUREAUCRATIC INEFFICIENCY, COUNCIL INEPTITUDE, and so on.
Get to grips with these issues and get your heads
out of those history books that can only remind you of lost battles and a few dead heroes.

Hi Ricsi! Why'd you change your name again?

Hello again, Mark!
‘It is equally disappointing that at the same time people of some other ethnic groups give us the worst Hungarian haters having lived in Hungary for many generations. Only the members of those groups could tell us why they gave us Béla Kun or “people” who scream as wild animals, “megölünk minden magyart” or scream “megölünk minden keresztényt” on Hungarian radio. How does that fit with the unselfish dedication and sacrifice of such heroes as the Armenian, Austrian, Croat, German, Serb ethnicity of, eight out of thirteen Aradi vértanuk?’

The recent ‘we will kill all Hungarians’ from a few Roma, and the ‘I’d like to kill all Christians’ from a drunken telecaster on Christmas Eve just a few years ago, is rather the zeitgeist. But we sat on the latter, if you will recall the march on the radio station of the largely middle-aged and middle-class. The former, I think, is containable, albeit encouraged by the latter kind; all we need is the change of government that is now inevitable. And the good thing is that our enemies within know that the empathy of most Eastern Europeans, and of the in-the-know Western Europeans, is with us, not with them. There is a shade in that of our non-Hungarian vértanuk (martyrs) of yore. (All will be well ithon, Mark. I’m sure of that.)

Bystander@Sorry but these days Ricsi really is Ricsi-no more name games I promise!
I am too busy to appear often,but when I do I will be Ricsi. Besides Mark is fighting our cause very effectively together with a few others,good work guys.

@ Elle;

May I ask what exactly are you working on, or is that private? Because if not, and if it were possible, I would like to read what ever you have written.

@Ricsi/Mark --

So you DO coordinate your online strategies with Mark then?

Do you give him tasks, like "OK here are these various links/documents... help me out and paste them around the sites listed on document B" etc.?

Cause sometimes it FEELS like that reading the interaction between you two...

I'm glad to hear he's doing good work for you and for JOBBIK! :P

The recent ‘we will kill all Hungarians’ from a few Roma, and the ‘I’d like to kill all Christians’ from a drunken telecaster on Christmas Eve just a few years ago, is rather the zeitgeist. But we sat on the latter, if you will recall the march on the radio station of the largely middle-aged and middle-class. The former, I think, is containable, albeit encouraged by the latter kind; all we need is the change of government that is now inevitable
Elle at February 10, 2010 8:50 PM
----
This is too sweet
Take 2 different examples from individuals and make it as the evidence for the whole group you want to hate
May I also remind sweet Mark on the fact he claims only Germans in Hungary were Nazi, so we have *the* largest national Hungarian minority is also Hungarian-haters
Let sum it up:
- Hungarian Roma hate 'Hungarians'
- Hungarian Jews hate 'Hungarians'
- Hungarian Germans hate 'Hungarians'
Why the remaining national Hungarians minorities would not hate 'Hungarians' is a puzzle for me, but Elle and Mark can without a doubt find some Hungarian Slovak, Romanian, Serb, etc that did something bad that can be pinned to the whole group
I mean think if we, non-Hungarians, would think that all 'Hungarians' were like the murders in the Novi Sad massacre, who killed several thousand innocent civilians?
Or like the 'Debrecen Nazi' who killed several innocent Roma at random?
Are these individuals the 'Real Representatives of Hungarians'?
Following Elle's and Mark's reasoning, they are

Exactly correct... but they will NEVER "get" it, will they?

Hearing THESE Hungarians (and I use the term loosely) one might be tempted to believe that ALL Hungarians were xenophobic, medieval, minority-haters... I hold out hope that these folks are NOT the majority, as considering that would leave a bad taste in my mouth about the future of Hungary, and that would be sad.

Luckily the reasonable voices around here convince me that not ALL Hungarians are racist bastards.

@ justasking
I am slowly winding up my doctoral thesis. Its proposal is that the absence in international public law (other than as scraps of customary international law) of states-and-borders regulation has to be remedied. I commend a model law, derived from others' and my empirical study of nationhood aspirations, as the appropriate remedy. I’m flattered that you are interested in reading it. But there’s just the little problem of delivery. And I really urge you not to publish any contact address of yours here.

@justasking

Include me on the list of those resident in Hungary if you like. I sometimes pop up now and again :)

“And I really urge you not to publish any contact address of yours here.”

I agree with you 100% and caution others about disclosing any personal information. My response to Bystander about their never tiring KGB habits is based on personal experiences my family had with his disgusting ilk. They take special delight in scaring the children with their filthy calls and death threats and always from pay phones. I do not believe in hate but I despise these people and for good reason.
It seems that Ricsi and Law were not aware of the disgusting nature of these people and in their naiveté; thought that they were engaging in somewhat controversial but still social climate. I hope they learned their lesson. Sorry my friends, but I still cannot get over you telling these people anything about yourselves. Better luck next time.

@JA- Just a minor correction - I do live in Hungary and have so for some time.

Besides Mark is fighting our cause very effectively together with a few others,good work guys.
Ricsi at February 10, 2010 9:02 PM
----
So, Mark is good, a self-confessed Nazi-admirer, who today had planned to celebrate the
-
http://www.dayofhonour.hu/
-
Due to Mark's German Neo-Nazi friends are busy doing their thing in Dresden instead, Mark has now to wait until March 6th, because honouring the 'Hungarian Patriots' can only be done when the German Comrades are present, a sign from the old times:
In September 1944, Soviet forces crossed the Hungarian border. On 15 October, Horthy announced that Hungary had signed an armistice with the Soviet Union. The Hungarian army ignored the armistice, fighting desperately to keep the Soviets out. The Germans launched Operation Panzerfaust and, by kidnapping his son Miklós Horthy, Jr., forced Horthy to abrogate the armistice, depose the Lakatos government, and name the leader of the Arrow Cross Party, Ferenc Szálasi, as Prime Minister. Horthy resigned and Szálasi became Prime Minister of a new "Hungarian State" (Magyar Állam) controlled by the Germans
-
On 28 December 1944, a provisional government was formed in Hungary under acting Prime Minister Béla Miklós. Miklós immediately ousted Prime Minister Ferenc Szálasi's government. The Germans and pro-German Hungarians loyal to Szálasi fought on
-
These are the soldiers that Mark call 'Hungarian Patriots', not the ones that stayed loyal to the Real Hungarian Nation

@ Bystander

"Luckily the reasonable voices around here convince me that not ALL Hungarians are racist bastards."

Just so you know, I wrote a personal email to Vandorlo months ago - I just wanted to know if the
not so reasonable voices are representative of Hungary as a whole - He seems to really care about the country, its people and he assured me they do not represent the majority.

Take a look at the posting of "Crusader" on Feb 10th 7.58 on this thread. To my mind, truer words have never been spoken. The only proviso I would have is that no one should post that unless they are living in Hungary - I believe it would be very inappropriate and offensive otherwise.

Do you visit Hungary often? My son is at a very large American University doing post-grad work. He was surprised to learn how little fairly educated Americans knew about Canada and its politics. I can imagine the vast knowledge Americans have about Hungary. Toronto is different. Whenever I tell people my background they have something positive to say about their travels in Hungary and its people.

@ Pip:

Sorry, I know nothing about you and have only seen you around a couple of times.

@ George;

For some reason I thought that you moved your family around alot because of your work. I stand corrected.

Olga,

I have actually never been to Hungary though I would absolutely like to -- in my family, about the only remnant of "Hungariosity" is my last name -- my great grandparents came over before 1900 and were long dead before I was born, so, sadly, no one in my family speaks the language knows how to cook the cuisine, NOTHING.

In fact I haven't even mentioned to my family members that I have tried to take an interest in my heritage by doing things like participating here, reading up on current events in Hungary, hoping to see FLs "film festival" (soon! too much work!) etc. My family is extremely assimilated into American culture with a little "Jewishness" mixed in.

Which is why it is extremely sad and embarrassing that my first attempt to acquaint myself with my family heritage is met with what FEELS like about a 40% ratio of in-your-face-Holocaust-denyin'-Arrow-Cross-Marchin salivating hatemongers!! I am trying very hard to fight off the instinct to tell myself "You know what? I'm AMERICAN at this point, and from the way Hungary sounds nowadays I can't count my blessings enough that my forefathers got the F*CK out of that backward-ass hellhole".

I don't WANT to feel that way, and I'm sure that the haters that literally infest this site WANT us to feel that they represent about 40% of the Hungarian population, but thanks to people like you, Vandorlo, FL, Viking, Wolfi, and the many others, I can see a glimmer of hope that Hungary is NOT like Ricsi/Law/Mark.

@Olga;

A friend of mine works for an international company, that just finished grouping their American and Canadian offices together. Anyhow, a meeting was held here in Canada so that all parties involved, can now get to know one another. Well, one of the guys from the States, actually said to my friend, that he considered Canadians "Mexicans with sweaters". At first I laughed, then I though..."Hey, that's not nice at all".

I just thought you might want to know what SOME Americans not ALL, think of Canadians. I don't know if you have ever heard of Rick Mercer; but, he did a show awhile back on how much Americans know about their neighbours up North. Lets just say that it wasn't very flattering.

@Justasking,

If you took a poll about Canadians in the parts of America that *I* know, people would probably mostly say they consider Canadians to be just like "*Americans* with sweaters", not Mexicans!

Very odd comment that person you mentioned made, I've never heard anything remotely insulting about Canadians like that and I think they were just trying to be funny (unsuccessfully?).

The impression of Canadians that most Americans have as far as I know is that they are very similar to Americans except that they say "eh?" a lot, wear flannel a fair amount, are politically slightly more liberal, less "puritannical", less obnoxious/rude/kneejerk and slightly more sophisticated or reserved than Americans.

The impression of Mexicans in America is very different, and there are a lot of racist attitudes toward them that I do not approve of.

So, I just wanted to assure you Justasking, that Canadians are not by *any* stretch of the imagination a "hated"/"discriminated-against" group in America. Your one person there was quite an anomaly. Oh, and also Catholics are (nowadays) not at all discriminated against/hated in America either. Hope that makes you rest a little easier and maybe you can spread the tolerance a little, knowing now that your "Canadiosity" is nothing to be ashamed of.

Re; Canadian/Americans:

On the other hand, all Canadians that I've talked to felt very superior compared to the American proles. Of course that was not necessarily a representative selection ...

One nice example:

In the Levis's shop in Niagara Falls (Canada) I was looking for clothes for me (size xxl) and my Hungarian neighbour (XXXL) asked the saleslady, why so little stuff was available in these sizes. And she looked at me and said: This is not the "States"!

Bystander@ If what you say is true then I appologise regarding my assumption that you are just another zionist lover, however you must realise that from your US sanctuary you may not see just how Hungary,indeed most nations,have been literally raped by Friedman economics.That is why we feel it is time to stop the rot.Sorry if you fail to see this whilst the US thinks the only way out of a crisis is to start yet another war against Iran for Israels benefit.

@ Wolfie;

That comment made by the sale clerk had me laughing out loud. Politically incorrect and true, yet funny non the less.

@Bystander;

I am in no way shape or form, embarrassed to be either Catholic nor Hungarian Canadian.

I just thought that as a fellow Canuck, Olga would find that little "Mexican in Sweaters" comment, again as one Canadian to another, funny in an ironic sort of way...eh!

As for the issue of Canada relations to our neighbours to the south, I know that not only is our country bigger; but, we are also smarter. And if we would be in jail....you would be my bitch!!

Christ, lighten up, I was just joking!

@justasking, bystander and wolfi

justasking - Rick Mercer? I love the guy. I think everyone in Canada knows him. Favourite skit: George Bush with our PM Jean Poutine. If I recall, Mr. Bush was not amused. Not surprised you follow Rick Mercer since you show every evidence of being a political animal mint en - We are just on different sides.

Bystander - you are so naive! You must be young and from the East. Since this is a Hungarian thread, I shall just ask you to listen to Anne Coulter and her charming view of Canada. I think you have to live in the Sarah Palin support areas to find out the resentment towards Canada for not being engaged in the war in Iraq.
My son never experience hostility just lack of knowledge re Canada like justasking said. He made many good friends and likes the American people. BTW, after he graduates, he could be earning a lot more money in the US than here, but he is a real Canuck and will be leaving the US come next May.

@all Canadians:

Must be terrible to be surrounded by USA and Palin's Alaska - but wait: didn't she resign ?

I followed her antics (unmarried daughter pregnant, boyfriend's mother a drug dealer) before the presidential elections in the Anchorage newspaper, that's how I learned the expression "trailer trash" - has become one of my favorites,also "hillbilly heroin" for that speed type of synthetic drug that (some) Alaskans seem to thrive on ...

@ Wolfi

you are behind the times - Sarah is reborn and in the headlines. Almost-son-in law gracing Playgirl cover. I think she got a part time job at Fox news. Won't waste other people's time on Sarah on this website, but let me assure you, "Sarah lives on" - and promoting her book daily on TV

See what you are missing by not living in N. America?

Yes, Olga, that "Playgirl" picture was even in the German news ...

It's really strange, whether USA, Germany or Hungary the news are always full of VUPs as I call them:

Very Un-important People ...

Now Vona's last sentence almost makes sense: "ban the commercial television stations RTL Klub and TV2" - and the corresponding stations all over the world, but I know that people everywhere want "panem et circenses"

Bystander. You are just one more nit-picking naff nincompoop that, in the light of having nothing else better to do, post your indifferent and useless shite on this forum ad nauseum.
(A well-wisher)

@justasking. No worries, I've been a long-term reader over the last 3 years or so. I don't comment that much anymore, but I was a bit Demagogic and Doktrinal (ki?) in the past....

Pip@ Please ask your LMP friend if it is not true that one of the candidates,Pécs/Kozármisleny? is not actually a lady called Bokos Sára,who was 'dismissed' from Pécsi Reformatus Gimnázium for apparent 'misappropiation'of school funds. Politics can be different? :)

Szebb jövőt

Having reviewed this thread, I am moved to comment on Vona Gábor’s vow to sort out, inter alia, the IMF-imposed management of the Hungarian economy. Perhaps if ‘book learning’ were better respected by more contributors to this thread, there would have been a higher level of sensitivity to the huge implications of this. Recall that once in the IMF grip, no country has been able to halt its rapid and chronic economic downward spiral. Hungary sure is in that grip, thanks particularly to the Meggyesi and Gyurcsany cabal’s last two lots of massive IMF loan indulgences. But what were the ‘crises’ that made this economy swoon to the point that IMF loans became the only ‘remedy’? (Remember that under the Orbán government there was a thriving economy?) The simple answer is that an intentional wrecking of the emerging private sector economy got under way, with foreign ‘investors’ buying up working industries, then shutting them down. The outcome, obviously, was a shift of employment from the private sector to the public sector. Real wages rose (funny?) and are still rising, which made possible the sharp VAT hike and the consequential rise in the consumer price index.

(cont.) That left a smallish part of our nation laughing, and the rest of it desperate. And all this happened under the strict tutelage the IMF insists on exercising. Now, the last 20-billion-euro IMF bailout loan expires in March 2000, and the country is supposed to finance itself by securing ‘market’ loans. That means more foreign-currency denominated loans from foreign ‘investors’ that we can go on paying off forever after, and at the same time, experience the impossibility of becoming competitive in the market into which this forces us. This is the sort of rut in which a corrupt government can keep a country, even one as well resourced as Argentina. There is no way out of this, unless the IMF-led design is frustrated. Vona Gábor has signalled that this is what he intends to do. Implicit in that signal is his intention to turn to a market that is not in the sphere for which the IMF has prepared it. I am not sure if we will hear Vona outline his economic policy before the elections. But so long as JOBBIK gains a decent representation in the Országgyűlés, I think we can expect economic policy that will free us from the track onto which the IMF and its pals have set us. Adja az Isten.

Hi Ricsi,

Sorry, I'm not personally acquainted with anyone from LMP or anything to do with them, though I did vote for them here in BP during the Euro elections if that counts ;)

I would suggest emailing or calling them with that question. Would be interesting to see what they say about it (and a possible opportunity for some journalistic investigation).

PiP@ Thanks for your reply,I was trying to point out their hypocrisy--We know you are not connected with them,we also know who is!
They will never answer that simple question,so now maybe you realise your vote was wasted.
Politics can be different! Indeed,but not with these LMP liars.

"once in the IMF grip, no country has been able to halt its rapid and chronic economic downward spiral" Elle at February 11, 2010 9:04 PM.
Indonesia, Thailand and Korea all managed to recover and grow their economies within 5 years of their loans. All 3 countries now have restrictions on their foreign borrowings, and have economies which are doing fairly alright. Thailand has a slight hiccup recently with their politics, but that was an internal issue.

@wolfi & olga.

I can tell you that Sarah's 'going rogue' continues apace. She is currently employed by FoxNews as an 'analyst', has been reported as using money from her own supporters fund to buy her books, thus pocketing the money as profits (quite a money loop scam that), and is helping to lead the 'assimilation' of the Tea-Party movement into the GOP.

I predict that she will be running for the GOP candidacy in 2012, but maybe something will happen between now and then (maybe she raptured away or have a snow-mobile accident or something).

@Anonymous
True. But the Malaysian leadership in that sector was vocal about how ASEAN should operate to avoid IMF railroading and its consequences. The sector took its advice. There is no ASEAN equivalent in Eastern Europe … yet. A JOBBIK-propelled Hungarian government will be in a good position to initiate the creation of one.

That comment made by the sale clerk had me laughing out loud. Politically incorrect and true, yet funny non the less.
justasking at February 11, 2010 6:59 PM
---
Hear, hear (or what those 'English MPs' cry when they want to support something)
-

We know you are not connected with them,we also know who is!
Ricsi at February 11, 2010 9:17 PM
---
Ricsi in the knows
Who is now keeping tabs on everyone
Registration of people on their political beliefs?

A JOBBIK-propelled Hungarian government will be in a good position to initiate the creation of one.
Elle at February 11, 2010 9:35 PM
----
But there will be none "JOBBIK-propelled Hungarian government" because here in Europe we actually care for the rule of Law
Just forget it

Wotcha Ricsi,

Your last comment to me seemed to imply that you know who I am, other than just my online presence. I hope that it was just an allusion to knowing who I am online and not an attempt to infer you 'know who I am' in real life. I doubt we have ever met or will meet, but maybe I'm wrong.

However, no matter and on with the show and all that...Having had a rummage around on t'Net it appears that Baka Sára certainly was the principal at that school for 10 years. However, I can't find any news stories of her 'dismissal' (not that I would expect to, knowing the standard of journalism in Hungary).

Do you have any links to impartial info on that case, or is it anecdotal information? I have to say I expect the latter but that doesn't mean I doubt it, just that I doubt it's impartiality. Any independant links would be cool.

@ Pip

I can see you are a big Sarah fan (Not) -

I have American friends who are both Democrats and Republicans. Some Democrats love her because she divides the Republicans. Our friends care about the USA first and parties second so the bottom line is they find her a complete embarrassment in front of the world.

I personally see a similarity between Sarah and Krisztina Morvai. I consider Sarah a moron and KM very smart, but I thought that given the trailer trash comments, JOBBIK would want to distance itself from her the same way that serious Republicans would like her to "just go away" and not hijack the media's attention with her antics.

Anyway, I asked Pavaszem if she was still an asset to the party ( I am sure you know, but in case you don't, he is the resident JOBBIK supporter who can actually come up with postings that are more relevant than "fuck off" or cut and paste useless information)

He said she was still an asset - Go figure.

PS : I sent her comments to a lot of friends. They thought it was a joke, even though I gave background info about, her including that she was a lawyer turned politician. Several emails later, I convinced everyone she was "real"

Too bad there is no Tina Faye and SNL equivalent in Hungary

@olga : Yes, SNL is (especially "was") great and there are also great comedians and political shows in Hungary, but my wife tells me, the best of them "Heti Hetes" has become rather tame now before the elections ...

IT's a pity though we can't receive SNL in Europe. When I saw (on MTV Eorope!) the early shows with the Blues Brothers or the Coneheads, also early Steve Martin years ago - I almost lost my head laughing.

On US humour:

My favorite "newspaper" with something on mrs Palin
http://www.theonion.com/content/from_print/line_to_meet_sarah_palin

Enjoy!

Hi olga,
You noticed :)

Interesting comparison between SP and MK though. Both of them are from the more rightwing parts of their respective political spectrums. Both try to use the "I'm just a normal working mother" routine to ingratiate themselves with voters who generally would rather vote on emotive issues rather than dry boring issues, like the economy for instance.

But at least MK doesn't claim to have voices in her head that tell her what to do (as far as I know)...Palin's religious posturing (not her faith, that's seperate in my eyes) and manipulation of the religious right by the GOP in the States is often a little scary (but also often funny) to watch.

And as for having a Tina Faye, Jon Stewart or SNL over here...well, one can only hope it'll happen one day. We badly need it nowadays, and the amoount of material to base it on is colossal. Political satire and using humour to combat 'The Powers That Be' seem to have died a death in the last decade or so in Hungary. The majority of satire that does exist is either too 'vanilla' in content or just crude and abusive.

Maybe we need to import some of those comedians and comedy writers that Canada is so famous for...

@wolfi

Heti Hetes is far too vanilla, and it always was. It's a weak attempt at "Have I Got News For You" without the politicians being ribbed, and sometimes ripped apart, on-air by comedians and commentators.

Case in example: the former Labour No.2, Roy Hattersley, was compared unfavourably to a tub of lard on the show. And the tub of lard was deemed to be more up to date on current affairs and political issues (mainly due to the teammate of the tub of lard scoring more points than the team Roy Hattersley was on).

The dynamic between the media and politic class here in Hungary really seems to be the wrong way round. Politicians should be scared of the media, not the other way round. Maybe it's due to a hangover from Communism, maybe it's present-day partisanship and sycophantic behaviour. I don't have an answer for why it is like that, but I wish it wasn't so.

BTW: you can get The Daily Show and The Colbert Report online in Hungary. Just go to Comedy Network's .com and yea shall find.

@ Pip and Wolfi

INHO, neither KM nor SP will ever win the Mother of the Year award. Since KM is smart so she can't even be excused for being plain stupid.

KM is hurting her children by making ugly remarks about Jews when the kids are 1/2 Jewish. Beyond my comprehension.

SP was dragging around her Downs baby in huge crowds as a vote-getter despite the fact that those babies have a suppressed immune system. (I Moreover, having worked full time while raising my children, I am not against Mothers working. However, a special needs child and having a high pressure political career is not a good mix.

Since this website has its share of conspiracy theorists and you seem to both like Jon Stewart:
He interviewed Orly Taitz on the Comedy Network (Russian Queen of the Birther Movement) I don't ever remember watching a skit 4 times but this one was worth it. It was on the Comedy Network and the skit is now blocked in Canada for some reason. If you can watch it somehow, let me know what you think.

I don't know anything about comedians in Hungary but when we visit, I try to catch any musicals I can. So much talent there both the acting and the production. Saw Rudolf and loved it and I believe it was also shown in NY city. The musical made Rudolf into a romantic figure which he was not, but it was great entertainment with twisted historical facts.

@Elle - I'm glad you agree that the 3 countries emerged relatively healthy from the "grips of the IMF". It would be disingenuous to claim otherwise.
All 3 countries (Korea, Indonesia & Thailand) had reserves, current accounts, tax revenues & economies which were relatively healthy. Their main problem was the extent to which the local companies had borrowed internationally. Hungary's (& Argentina's) main problem is that the govt had borrowed, had large deficits, and was broke - a very different kettle of fish.
Malaysia's gripe was that the IMF's recommendation of high interest rates to prevent currency speculators (one particular 'Hungarian' comes to mind), hindered the effective operations of profitable local companies which employed thousands of people. Mahathir's complaint was that by recommending high interest rates, and doing nothing to prevent currency speculators (not really their role), the IMF was abetting the speculators . To summarize, ASEAN central banks agreed to support one another's currency, on the understanding that the member countries would adopt more transparency, reduce moral hazard, and limit their govt & local companies' borrowings (all IMF requirements).
I honestly an ASEAN is required here. We already have the EU. One of the basic tenets of ASEAN is the strict adherence to non-interference in the internal affairs of other member countries, and the resolution of territorial disputes through negotiation or mediation. Seriously,... Vona?

Elle: “Recall that once in the IMF grip, no country has been able to halt its rapid and chronic economic downward spiral. Hungary sure is in that grip, thanks particularly to the Meggyesi and Gyurcsany cabal’s last two lots of massive IMF loan indulgences.”

I am afraid that they stabbed Hungary in the back at the time of what we thought was rendszerváltás but really gengszterváltás. Bob or Pava could probably tell you more about it but I pasted in a small section, hoping that you can read it and find the rest. Hungary deserved better:

A nyugati pénzügyi tőke megtiltotta Antall Józsefnek, hogy az államadósságot a saját elképzelése szerint kezelje - állítja Bogár László. A közgazdász szerint hazánk - már a rendszerváltást megelőzően - egy globális és végtelenített adósságszivattyúnak, egy kifosztó szivattyúnak lett az áldozata.

"Antall Józsefet 1990 elején, amikor még nem volt miniszterelnök, de már látható volt, hogy ő lesz a soron következő kormány feje, számos alkalommal vitték el azokba a nyugat-európai pénzpiaci központokba (Frankfurt, Párizs, London), amelyek a világ pénzhatalmának európai centrumai voltak" - mondta Bogár László közgazdász az Echo Televízió Kiút többszemközt című műsorában. Bogár László szerint Antall Józsefnek alkalma nyílt mindenkivel találkozni, aki ebben a pénzhatalmi rendszerben számít. A kilencvenes év végén drámai hangú beszélgetésen mondta el Bogár Lászlónak azt, hogy mi történt ezeken a beszélgetéseken. A rendszerváltás első miniszterelnöke szerint egy globális vélemény hatalmi terrorja nyilatkozott meg a találkozókon.

@Mark: Please have the common decency to list your sources. Cutting and pasting stuff is completely unnecessary if you actively select the most important bits *and translate it*. You claim you are Hungarian but we have seen no proof. You can't write simple Hungarian and you have shown no signs of understanding it and being able to explain things in English you claim to read.
Your source was: http://www.magyarhirlap.hu/gazdasag/kiarusitott_magyarorszag.html
Let's start seeing some proof you are actually Hungarian. Cutting and pasting makes you look (more) ridiculous.

@Elle - Apologies- the above anonymous was from me.
Also, the one sentence in the post was meant to read "I honestly don't think an ASEAN is required here".
I visited all 3 countries during the financial crises, and was based in Malaysia studying the their response. Your understanding of the situation there and how it differs with Hungary's situation is quite superficial. It's a good thing your thesis focuses on nationalism and not on international economics.
As usual, our resident poodle, Murkybrain Marf, shows his ignorance. Read again slowly, Marf - Korea, Thailand and Indonesia recovered with IMF (& other) assistance after reorganizing their economies.

I agree that not everything that not everything the IMF or Worlbank does is 'evil', however, there is a degree to which there is an element of favouritism that makes it possible for some countries to develop more quickly and more securely. The dynamics of geopolitcs and development mean that some nations will be 'invited' to develop depending on what potential they might have in terms of economic or military strategic value. This is particularly true for the 'Tiger' economies of Asia. It doesn't come without risk, however, as was seen during the Asian economic crisis. I think the situation is very different for Hungary, since it doesn't really have much of the resources or strategic potential that some of these Asians have like land, a large population (market potential), a cultural crossroads with another large economic system or easily obtainable natural resources like coal, metals, etc.(there is some military strategic value but small compared with proximity to China) Hungary does have some great products, production opportunities and the EU though, which by proxy could give it greater bargaining power as long as it can improve its economy and social cohesiveness within and without. Social and economic connection and openness is essential for secure long-term development; just compare China's experience comparing the 19th and late 20th/21st century.

CuriousGeorge@Who f...ked up those economies in the first place? Put the politics aside and try reading Naomi Klein's brilliant 'The Shock Doctrine'and learn all about Friedman economics.

@Cináed:

You forgot to mention something really very valuable that Hungary posesses and has been exporting for a long time:

BRAINS!

If Hungary tried to get more of those people that emigrated to return something (or return in person even) to Hungary that would mena a lot "added value" to this country ...

PS : of course there is this little problem, that some of the emigrants (like the Jews and maybe some people of German descent) had to leave Hungary or face oppression and death ...

@ Curious George
‘Your understanding of the situation there and how it differs with Hungary's situation is quite superficial.’

You drew the comparison, not I. And how, pray, is my understanding ‘superficial’ … because you claim that you have a better insight that you do not demonstrate?

‘…Korea, Thailand and Indonesia recovered with IMF (& other) assistance after reorganizing their economies.’

Nope: ‘despite’, not ‘with’ IMF ‘assistance’. They outwitted the IMF.

‘I honestly don't think an ASEAN is required here.’

Whether Eastern Europe would benefit from an ASEAN-like organisation will be determined when we see how the Eurozone handles the current Greek fiscal crisis. If even a Eurozone country is thrown to the IMF dog, then what can EU countries that are not in the Eurozone expect? (And what is the future of the Euro if the IMF can insinuate itself into the Eurozone?)

@ Mark
Quite. That is exactly what I have in mind when I argue that foreign economic plans are laid for Hungary by foreigners, in the interest of foreigners. (I love your ‘what we thought was rendszerváltás [regime change] but really gengszterváltás [change of gansters]’!) Allow me to translate three key sentences of the Bogár László text you quote:

‘A nyugati pénzügyi tőke megtiltotta Antall Józsefnek, hogy az államadósságot a saját elképzelése szerint kezelje.’ [Western fiscal capital prohibited Antall József’s handling of the national debt according to his own plans.]

‘A közgazdász szerint hazánk - már a rendszerváltást megelőzően - egy globális és végtelenített adósságszivattyúnak, egy kifosztó szivattyúnak lett az áldozata.’ [According to the economist (Bogár László), our homeland became, even at the run-up to the regime change, the victim of a global and infinite debt pump, of a robber pump.]

‘A rendszerváltás első miniszterelnöke szerint egy globális vélemény hatalmi terrorja nyilatkozott meg a találkozókon.’ [According to the regime-change’s first prime minister (Antall), the enormous dictat of a globalist mindset revealed itself during these meetings], ‘these meetings’ being the tour of the fiscal-policy greats of the globe on which Antall was taken.

Well done, Mark. Your reminder that Bogár László is one economist well worth listing to is very timely indeed.

Hungary has yet to make the transition from Communism to Captitalism.
Twenty years have gone by and most of what went on
when the soviets where here still persists.
I read yesterday the government gave 9 billion forint to a plastics company because it said it was going to employ at least a hundred more people.
I want to see the paperwork: spreadsheets, company documents, accounts etc.
And, if the company needed at least one hundred
new workers that meant they must have some "tasty" new contracts. Why, therefore, did they not approach the banks or ask for EU funding?
Something smells and it is not the rotting fish from Lake Balaton.
Local Councils get involved in commercial and private enterprise beyond their means and capability. This should stop now.
Adopt and adapt to the free market or perish. We all shall, very soon, if this cold weather keeps up!

That is exactly what I have in mind when I argue that foreign economic plans are laid for Hungary by foreigners, in the interest of foreigners
Elle at February 12, 2010 3:54 PM
----
Well those money borrowed from IMF during the Communist period before 1990 had to be paid back, right?
It was in the end the reason for the Bokros-package during 1995-1998, when the Hungarian State Finances were cleaned up enough to be able to handle the old loans
This mopping-up operation has then been destroyed by Orban, Medgessy and Gyurcsany, starting 2000
And that is why Hungary again need the guy from yesterday, Bokros, to clean up the future State Finances

Vandorlo: “Let's start seeing some proof you are actually Hungarian.”
You confuse me with someone who cares what you and the likes of you think.

@Elle
Just when I concluded that these pretend, Irish, German, Swedish and whatever provocateurs are completely useless one of them posted the link to the article I quoted from in my earlier post to you:
http://www.magyarhirlap.hu/gazdasag/kiarusitott_magyarorszag.html
It is interesting that Magyar Hirlap printed the Bogár article. The owner is a Fidesz booster and very much against Jobbik but this article shows that Jobbik is on the right track for wanting to review everything, and I mean everything since the gengszterváltás. The reason I say that is because the owner of Magyar Hirlap is one of those who managed to amass a large fortune exploiting the muddy waters after the gengszterváltás while ruining some Hungarian industries and throwing hundreds of people on the street.
Given all that has happened during these past 20 years, I support anyone who advocates a total review of every deal, every loan without regard to the perpetrators. Only Jobbik is clean enough to undertake the house cleaning that required.

@ kerskedelem:
‘Twenty years have gone by and most of what went on when the soviets where here still persists.’

True in some sense, but not entirely: ‘gulás communism’ burgeoned in the post-1968 part of that time, when the Új Gazdasági. Mehanizmus (GAZMEG) came into being to allow an open-ended level of private enterprise. Hungarians thrived on the extra income that GAZMEG enabled them to generate. Energising though this was for a good ten years or longer for many, people without skills marketable domestically began to suffer, for the cost of living went up with the risen incomes of the GAZMEG-enabled.

I put it to you that what ‘persists’ is the political/economic power of the pre-GAZMEG Stalinists. Those of them who did not flee Hungary after the Uprising were not particularly visible when Kádár János was the Hungarian Communist Party’s General Secretary (1956-1988), but they were still well ensconced in the power establishment, although keeping their heads down, for Krushchev, then the Soviet leader, was not fond of them. It is they who reared up again with the regime change, having handed down the reins to those who now serve the interests of foreign capitalists with the same enthusiasm with which their forebears had served Stalinist communism.

It is as well to remember that the GAZMEG part of the time ‘when the soviets where here still’ was more the best of times than the worst of times; that is not true of the present time.

Dear kereskedelem and elle,

It seems to me that is was going from one unsustainable set of circumstances to another. The pre-1989 regime of course couldn't last, but then neither should what prevails now.

What depresses me is that even an unsustainable and stagnant regime or set of circumstances can last for many decades. I hate to keep making allusions to Africa, but observe there that 40-50 years after independence most of those nations are a serious mess, with talk of it continuing so for another generation or two, at the least(!) I don't believe that those nations can be helped by getting rid of multinationals; doing so would just leave the field open to mismanagement and thieving by their own locals, and nothing would improve. That is my fear for Hungary.

Some nations have made specatacular economic progress even with the presence of multinationals on their soil. The most dynamic economic "tigers" went on to create their own succesful multinationals. When are Hungarians going to be doing that? I'm seriously afraid that if it happens, it won't be in my lifetime.

In my travels through rising economic powers throughout Asia, I notice that the people are just more pragmatic and grounded than Hungarians seem to be. The Magyar national temperament, influenced as it is by emotion, sadness over the past and dreamy fatalism, is ill suited to a world ruled by business, commerce and calculated risk taking.

@ Mark

‘It is interesting that Magyar Hirlap printed the Bogár article. The owner is a Fidesz booster and very much against Jobbik …’.

Interesting indeed, Mark! I wonder if I dare smell in this the JOBBIK-driven Fidesz I hope to see in parliament after the upcoming election?

Like you, I should like to see ‘total review of every deal, every loan without regard to the perpetrators’. But then, I’m happy to settle for the looming threat of it. Then, Putin-style, only the worst of them needs to be indicted; the rest will scarper, as they did from Russia.

@ Farkas László

It is not the multinationals per se that irk. It is the ‘since Meggyesi to now’ tax leniency they enjoy. It need not be anywhere nearly as favourable as it is. (They would not pack up and leave if it were considerably less so, for they do compete to territory among themselves.) And surely, we don’t need all of them, especially not the Tesco kind that rips off our remaining farmers and buys up agricultural land.

And László, I would not forget our work ethic and igény, even though ‘[t]he Magyar national temperament, influenced as it is by emotion, sadness over the past and dreamy fatalism, is ill suited to a world ruled by business, commerce and calculated risk taking’. Then again, yes: we are rather as you describe. And I love us for that. But I love us also for our refusal to be sat on. (Shucks, you’ve got me worried … )

Elle@You are definately on the right track,well done! Try reading Naomi Kleins book 'Shock Doctrine'for a fantastic explanation of Friedman economics and the deliberate chaos caused all in the name of 'Globalism'. That is the shit we are against.
Best wishes

elle/Farkas Laszló.
Hungary always has been let down by its leaders.
A fresh start was to be made when the soviets left in 1989.
Twenty years have gone by and a lot of money and good chances have been squandered by successive
governments.
If you live in Hungary like I do you will realise that there is a great despondency in the air at the moment (as well as a lot of snow).
People do not seem convinced that a new government
in the Spring will make any difference.
The only new face on the scene is Jobbik. I do not know if they are just another far right-wing
outfit that will be here today and gone tomorrow?
Hungary lives in the past, dreams of the future. But in my opinion as done rather well in terms of
standard of living. This has been mainly due to
increase in national debt and many loans being written off. I say this country is in trouble and there are no immediate solutions to resolve
the insurmountable problems we now face.
I despise Tesco, Ikea, McDonalds and so on.
Everything I ran away from in the UK is creeping
up on me again as Hungary becomes one great shopping mall with the same inferior and
cheap, Chinese imports, that last as long as a mayfly.

@Ricsi- "who f***** up the countries in the first place?" To me, I think it was mainly irresponsible companies who borrowed recklessly, and corrupt governments who gave them clout to do so.
I'd normally agree with a lot of the social aspects of what someone like Klein would say. However, in this case, I think I'd disagree because I've met so many like her who've usually misread how business operates, and the responsibilities attached to each party (customer, company, govt, and society at large).
If you compare the effects of the Asian crises on countries like China, India, Taiwan and Singapore, versus countries like Korea, Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia, you'll notice how one group avoided a disaster, while the 2nd required IMF bailouts. Both adopted what Klein would term "Friedman economics". The main difference was in their policies and how they controlled their finances.
I'm not a capitalist nor an apologist, but a realist. I understood long ago that the business world has its own way of deciding survival of the fittest, and there is no conspiracy. When I saw the dozens of companies shutting their doors in Russia in the 90's, I realised that no amount of govt protection would have helped them survive. Many of those companies couldn't compete even with some smaller companies from my country, let alone with multis. cont'd

I know a cafe in Vienna which lasted for 4 generations. A few years back, Starbucks came into the neighbourhood and ate into their business. Do you think they would have been immune to competition if Starbucks hadn't moved close by? No, an enterprising Austrian who'd seen Starbucks could have easily set up something similar. Just look at Dieter Mateschitz, who saw Red Bull in Thailand and decided to bring it to Europe. He was just an invidual with an idea. It is impossible to control ideas, and no-one has a monopoly on them, or can limit its use. Smaller companies have no choice but to innovate, and create value (much harder said than done, but no-one gonna give you a free-pass). Travel firms which used to get 7% commission from the sale of airplane tickets, now get nothing since people buy tickets on-line. When is the last time you went to a travel agent for a ticket. Are you responsible for their demise? Or of VCR firms demise, or firms which produced cameras using film.Companies around the world are increasing their competitiveness so fast that the added efficiencies will make many more business & people redundant whether we like it or not. Companies just have to keep up, and wherever possible seek efficiency gains by co-operating, and cutting waste. If you dont cut out waste and redundant activities within your operations, I'll guarantee you 1000 similar firms around the world (your competitors) around the world would be. I'm curious, what's your move?

@ Ricsi
‘Try reading Naomi Kleins book 'Shock Doctrine' for a fantastic explanation of Friedman economics and the deliberate chaos caused all in the name of 'Globalism'. That is the shit we are against.’

I’ve read it, and I agree with you, on both counts.

@Elle - you've already admitted that the 3 countries I named put your earlier statement about being in IMF grips to the bin.
Your perception of Malaysia taking on the IMF in '98 and winning, and the implication that such a situation had a lesson for Hungary, was neither true, nor did it have any similarity to Hungary's dealings wrt IMF. No ASEAN country took Malaysia's advice (as you call it), nor imposed similar capital controls. They simply agreed to co-operate and help each other if each country agreed to be responsible.
Outwitting the IMF? In your dreams! The 3 countries swallowed their pride and agreed to almost all the conditions the IMF put before them. They learned a painful lesson, and I know they'll do everything to avoid repeating those mistakes. Would Hungary act likewise?
ASEAN, as a free-trade area, has looser affiliations between its members than a custom, monetary or political union. There is nothing which would benefit any East European (or ASEAN) member of a free-trade area in the event of a default (see Iceland). As a member of the monetary union, members (like Greece) have an added (but not guaranteed) layer of protection. Ultimately, countries have to decide whether to be responsible, or put everyone else at risk. Likewise, non-affected countries can decide if they want to help out, or bail out.

And after that you can continue with the
-
http://www.munkaspart.hu/2010valasztas/Program2010.pdf
-
It goes much faster than the Jobbik 88-page program to read, but much of the ideas are the same anyway

Dear Elle and kereskedelem,

The problem in many lesser developed countries, is that the leaders end up exploiting the weaknesses of their people. This is all the more true the poorer the nation. It is a very difficult thing to change, especially when so many educated youth end up leaving. The more the backwardness, the longer the stagnation may continue.

@ Farkas László

‘The problem in many lesser developed countries, is that the leaders end up exploiting the weaknesses of their people.’ László, you are surely not saying that this is our problem, are you?

@ Curious George
The IMF instructed the ‘Asian Tiger’ countries that accepted its ‘aid’ to cut spending and deflate their economies. That forced their economic slowdown, which incurred enormous human suffering. They were required also to accept conditions for the liberalisation of their financial markets. Malaysia’s Mahathir thumbed IMF assistance, and imposed capital controls to prevent speculative trading in its currency. The IMF giggled at him. But Malaysia suffered a far less severe economic slowdown than the other countries. Faced with this evidence that it was currency speculators, not economic fundamentals, that had brought on the East Asian economic meltdown, the IMF had to back off as the coercive adviser. So yes, the IMF was outwitted: South Korea, the IMF’s (and the US’s) primary target, did not halve its growth rate, as the IMF had required. Neither did the others, following suit. Recovery was therefore quite quick. You might like to read: RP Buckley and SM Fitzgerald, ‘An Assessment of Malaysia’s Response to the IMF During the Asian Economic Crisis’, 96 Singapore Journal of Legal Studies, 2004.
`There is nothing which would benefit any East European (or ASEAN) member of a free-trade area in the event of a default’
No? What about IMF-thumbing action, such as in East Asia, that exposes the IMF and frustrates its plans to reform an economy to suit its own objectives?

Dear elle,

Perhaps I should leave that up to you to think about! Politicians everywhere are opportunists; how much and what they can get away with varies from place to place, depending on what checks and balances exist, as well as what the collective expectations of the citizenry are. In some countries the penalties if caught are high, in others the people just shrug it off. In some nations the leaders are expected to be public servants; in others, the concept of public service is unheard of and considered naive. African leaders are an extreme example of that, but the problem isn't confined to Africa

I have written quite a bit on the Mako gas project. I have also expressed fear and concern that the gas extraction may proceed on the "Nigerian model": viz. that a corrupt political class makes it's deals with energy majors, fills it's own pockets, and the people experience little if any benefit from all the wealth pumped out of the ground. There has to be transparency and accountability in these deals for one thing. There also has to be a tax policy that can be revealed to the public. How will the revenues be taxed, and what will the money be spent on? If the people don't force the issue, there will be a lot of swindling going on!

@Elle - you wrote some points (not all) which are true. However, (it appears) that the inferences and perceptions of some of the actions are probably skewed by political leanings, and your disdain of the IMF. I don't want send an immediate reply without acknowledging what's true, and addressing what is incorrect in your statement. Give me a couple of days.

Hello, László!
I think I am beginning to follow your concerns about the Mako gas fields. It is on record that Magyar Energia Hivatal allowed MOL to delay the registering of Surgutneftegaz’s 21.2% acquisition (bought, allegedly at twice the market price, from Austria’s OMV) until MOL amended its charter to allow the (government-backed) board of directors, i.e., not the shareholders, to hold decision-making power. This is highly open to challenge, for EU company law directives have obliged member-state legislatures to forbid the actions of a public company that prejudice the interests of a class or group of its shareholders.

It will be good for Hungary if Surgutneftegaz mounts a challenge against the MOL board of directors once our rotten present government is gone. We will then get an insight into what sort of Hungarian tax MOL is paying. It will be very interesting , inter alia, to see whether MOL is observing the ‘arm’s length’ transfer-pricing rule in the way it calculates its Hungarian tax liability. Such a challenge might even uncover our own Khodorkovsky in the person of Csányi Sándor and his OTP banking group, who enabled the Rothschilds’ control of MOL. If Surgutneftegaz is not interesting in mounting this challenge, the new government might/should be. (Given that the corporate veil is very difficult to pierce, our only hope of transparency re the Mako gas fields is legal action. And the only entities with standing to bring it are the MOL shareholders and the regulator, Magyar Energia Hivatal.)

Hello Elle!

That's the spirit! Your post shows the awareness that more Hungarians should share about this whole thing. The voters and the people should all be talking about the issues surrounding it. Given that production is due to start in the political midterm, the 2010 election is the elction for politicans, voters and the people to make it a political question.

This is expected to be the third largest gas field in Europe, third after Russia and the Netherlands. We can't blow this! This could generate the financial boost that our poor and demoralised nation needs to truly renew itself. If a bunch of crooked politicans and corporate players make secret deals and hide financial information from a public that has every right to know, then shame on the public that allows it! Every political party should have a public position on the project and how it's revenues would be used. If they remain silent on it, they may be in cahoots with the crooks or with shadiness.

Either we aspire to be like a developed European nation, or become more like the corrupt African nations. It's a stark choice. Look at Nigeria, lots of oil, but what good does it do? Not a good role model for Hungary!

Thanks for your post Elle, and do keep up with your concerns. If you or anyone else has further information to share about the project, please post!

I am posting for the third time on this website a series of questions about the Makó project that I first presented on:

http://www.politics.hu/20091117/orbans-energy-independence-pledge-just-a-bunch-of-hot-air#c41

I share this with Elle and anyone else that cares about Hungary's economic future, especially in an election year.

=================================================

Makó raises economic and political questions of the utmost importance:

1)What will be the effect on the nation’s GDP over 30 years?

2)How will this windfall be taxed?

3)How will that tax money be spent?

4)What kind of tax policy and incentives are appropriate in this case?

5)How can public and govt policy affect research and development, plant construction and further exploration?

6)What kind of “trickle down” effect or economic multiplier ripples be expected?

7)How will the private sector spend the proceeds?

8)What impact will this have on the job and real estate market, especially in S.E Hungary?

9)How can these gas revenues be employed to improve our infrastructure, education and other economic capacity?

Last but not least,

10)How can we profit from this as individuals?

================================================

I'm sure other concerns can be added to the list. Let's all keep talking about this issue!

@Elle - As a lender of last resort to countries, the IMF has a responsibility to ensure that their 'public' funds are not misused (eg Russia in '98). While it has many smart people in the org, it doesn't know everything. In the past, it approached countries with the same recipe for stabilizing a country's economy when their finances have gone haywire.
The IMF approached the 3 Asian countries with their standard recipe even though these economies and budgets were relatively healthy. These countries had depleted their reserves to prop up their currency, which was targeted by currency speculators. The main recommendation was to stem the flow of cheap credit to speculative activities & favoured corrupt companies. All the countries recognised & did just that, and were able, after some time, to resume their export-related activities helped by their depreciated currencies. Property, finance & retail remained depressed.

In imposing capital controls, Mahathir tried to address the problem that the IMF ignored (not their role). The controls were targeted specifically at people like Soros whom the int'l community didn't (& given how currencies flowed, couldn't) control. Before Dr Mahathir imposed those controls, I know he was tutored by a ex-central bank governor for 6 months, from 6-9am everyday, to understand currency-flows and its influence on the economy (I'd hope to see Vona show this sort of tenacity in understanding something before outlining a policy).. cont'd

In reality, Malaysia went further than any IMF recommendation by shutting down 80% of banks (22 of 28 banks), cutting off funds to unsustainable activities, requiring all companies to show sources of funds, customer bases and contracts, & getting CB approvals before money could be sent overseas. Mahathir, however, was smart enough to continue to aggresively seek more foreign investments in manufacturing & IT, and to ensure that such valued local or foreign economic activities would not be hindered.
I don't see this as thumbing the IMF. The 4 govts recognized the extent to which cheap funds & moral hazard has exposed their economies, & essentially did deflate the unsustainable even if they didn't like it. Their main dilemma was political - their own continuity if people lost jobs. The ASEAN free-trade area played no part in any response.

So, yes, I do agree the IMF recommendations weren't painless(I saw it firsthand in 3 countries), but they were required to protect the economies from further speculation. Given their role & tools (and the body of knowledge at the time), it was logical & had an economic basis. As I told Ricsi, the business world is changing (faster than any legislative), and it is a challenge for organizations to keep up. To reject the IMF when Hungary's (& Greece) problem is old-fashioned financial management is short-sighted. All countries can avoid the IMF by simply being responsible. What would your alternative for Hungary have been in Oct 08?

'In reality, Malaysia went further than any IMF recommendation by shutting down 80% of banks (22 of 28 banks)...'

Mahathir went 'other than', not 'further than' IMF recommendations.

@ Farkas Lászlo

I am interested in your enthusiasm for buying MOL shares. And sincerely, I hope your judgment is sound. But I’m worried. Orbán is telling us that we will have free energy. Yet if MOL, whose activities are pretty strong in Pakistan and Iraq and elsewhere, were paying its the taxes as it should, Hungarian state coffers would be full. There would have been no need for the last IMF loan. So has Orbán settled for something as minimal as free energy rather than pursuing MOL for its tax obligations? In that case, MOL shares will become the highly-paying shares you expect them to become upon the Makó fields’ production … provided that the Surgutneftegaz presence in it will not be disruptive.

Also, MOL is certainly a Rothschild-controlled company, so Hungarian only inasmuch as it is registered in Hungary. It is closely associated with the Nabucco pipeline (see http://www.jamestown.org/programs/edm/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=35009&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=27&cHash=e82236e7c0), therefore in competition with Russia’s South Stream. This, added to the Surgutneftegaz acquisition of 21.2% of MOL shares (which makes it the biggest single shareholder), puts Rothschild and Putin into serious face-off mode. And given the shafting Putin gave him with Lukoil, it is unlikely that Rothschild is happy with a Putin presence in MOL. Would Rothschild go as far as to scupper MOL to get rid of him?

"Mahathir went 'other than', not 'further than' IMF recommendations."
Had you fooled, didn't he?

Dear Elle,

Good questions you raise, as they highlight so much of the uncertainty. There is no clear answer to them, as they pertain to present and future intrigues. It's like playing cards with Machiavelli.

The people might have lost already. What I see shaping up is a policy of what I call "Nigeria Lite". What that is is a corrupt political class that gives a little something to the public, like "free" or subsidised energy, as opposed to nothing at all!

That we could move in the direction that the Netherlands did when they started extracting their gas in the 1950's is unimaginable to me. They had more experience in self rule, as well as a political system that had more transparency and accountability. Also they had centuries of experience with commerce and merchantilism, and their people are more used to handling wealth, something that our people lack.

That many billions of euros could be coming out of the ground doesn't seem to compute in the minds of many Hungarians and their leaders, unaccustomed as they are to good fortune and wealth. There is NO excuse for not taxing that production, as that is money that needs to be put to many other important uses. Foreswearing taxation is to me a "de facto" sign of corruption. It's giving an enormous free ride to the majors, such as they could never get in their home countries. It's selling the people short. I invite, I beg the political parties to make this an election issue.

Netherlands or Nigeria?

Hello again Elle,

My study of stock market and corporate history, especially under regimes of poor government oversight and regulation, tells me that we can expect a rocky road to real national wealth and empowerment through Makó.

One problem that you mention is that existing producers like Russia, will be less than delighted to find a vast new sourcce of supply, as it impacts market share and market price. Traditionally, majors have dealt with this problem by extracting new finds at a reduced rate of output, and even "capping" wells that are otherwise viable. These are practices that I have expressed concern about on another thread in dialogues with Zsuzsa (justasking). She is an investor in Falcon Oil I believe, which is one of the Makó principals. (Not a bad idea in my opinion) In Oct. Falcon called a press conference to suggest that the potential gas is of an inferior quality and that it is considering capping the wells- something that they later disavowed. This is all part of the game playing that we can expect when there is so much wealth at stake. The issue of "capping" is something our hick leaders have probably not considered at all. (What would be their policy response? They themselves don't likely know!)

(Cont)

When we talk about personal investment in companies like MOL, we are removing ourselves from the political arena and it's public policy questions (although an investor continues to be affected by what goes on on that front). If the politicians have already sealed the deals with the majors, it becomes an issue of do you "want in" yourself or just be on the sidelines?

Share ownership in these enterprises is how the "big boys" and their political friends expect to benefit from the production. (It would be interesting to know how many shares are owned by Hungarian politicians!) Watching share prices is probably the best way to monitor project viability and see through the lies and bullshit. (When Falcon made it's Oct announcement, MOL stock stayed steady, and even went up.) Since I wrote that thread, MOL stock has gone up almost 4,000 FT per share.

I believe in hungarian empowerment, not just in terms of public policy, but on the individual level as well. We are a people that need to make good financial investments. Please review my discussion of stock ownership issues and risks on the above referenced link. Become informed and act wisely.

@ Farkas László:

Hello, László! I was writing to you when your answer came. Thanks for it. It’s interesting that Zsuzsa (really? justasking?) has this burning investment. I hope it works for her. But now I am again full of questions, which condition sent me back to your comment: ‘There also has to be a tax policy that can be revealed to the public. How will the revenues be taxed, and what will the money be spent on? If the people don't force the issue, there will be a lot of swindling going on!’ February 13, 2010 3:56 AM
How right you are! We need only look at the barefaced admission on MOL’s ‘Ownership Structure’ page to see instantly that our commercial law is such that the ownership structure of this, the biggest company registered in Hungary that controls our best natural asset does not even have to fully disclosed: ‘Please note, that data above do not fully reflect the ownership structure in the Share Register. The registration is not mandatory.’ http://www.mol.hu/en/about_mol/investor_relations/shareholder_info/ownership_structure/.

@ Farkas László (cont.):
And what happened since 1999, when it was said of MOL that ‘[t]he Hungarian government owns 25% plus one of the ordinary shares, plus a special (golden) share, while institutional and private investors own the remaining 75%’? http://www.molgroup.hu/en/investors/news_releases/mol/archives/1999/16_august_1999_/
Who has since got the ‘25% plus one of the ordinary shares’ once held by ‘the Hungarian government’? That is a huge chunk of shares. It is damnably suspicious that NO political party is talking about this. So you are no doubt right: our beloved political class helped itself to it. Besides, why was it not the Államkincstár that held these shares? Who has ever heard of public assets being held by governments?

This is all bloody disgusting. Perhaps I shall buy MOL shares, then contribute to the university you are going to found. (László, please do not feel obliged to answer these miriad questions. They are probably more aptly called screams.)

FarkasLászló
The Mako Gas Field is a done deal and now it is just a matter of sharing the spoils?
I don’t think so!
Gas at 6000 metres – making it difficult to extract and hindered further by large amounts of water. This, ultimately, will make the gas expensive and possibly not competitive on the world market.

O Contractual relations in Makó trough
Although the largest acreage owner of the unconventional gas resources in Hungary is MOL, the news of Makó deposits was publicized mainly in connection with a series of announcement of joint deals between Canadian Falcon Oil and Gas Ltd., Hungarian MOL, and USA based ExxonMob
Jan. 8 (Bloomberg) -- Exxon Mobil Corp. seeks more than added reserves with its takeover of XTO Energy Inc. The biggest U.S. oil company also intends to prevent a repeat of exploration flops such as a Hungarian well that struck more water than gas.
I suggest all interested parties should check out how much has already been spent on
this little exercise over the past ten years. A considerable sum I can tell you.

Dear Prospectus,

I appreciate every bit of news and information about this subject. We are acting properly as thinking and concerned Hungarians when we ask the hard questions and question what is going on. I welcome further participation from all who have information and sources to share.

I have no doubt that much has been spent already, and yet the majors must feel it's worhtwhile, otherwise they couldn't justify further efforts and expense. They are responsible to their shareholders, and it is their money. If this thing was known to the insiders as a real bust, the price of MOL stock would take a big nose-dive, which it has so far not done.

A comment was made, on how expensive this "tight gas" would be at present to extract and from what I am told it is. That being said, that does not mean that it will always be that way. It just means that gas has to hit a certain amount, before it would be profitable to extract.

The same thing happened in the Alberta Oil Sands. At one time the thought of boiling oil out of sand did not only draw blank stares from some; but, also required that oil hit (I'm just throwing an amount out) say $ 70.00/ barrel, before this area was considered a gold mine. Now look at it.

@Elle;

Yup, name is Zsuzsa, feel free to use it if you want. I ended up buying shares in Falcon Oil for the simple fact that they were selling @ 14 cents a share. I would have been stupid not to buy at that amount. Not only does Falcon have the Hungarian nest egg, they apparently have another ace up their sleeve in Australia.

@ Farkas Laci;

Your right, I would be screaming from the roof tops to these political parties about their intentions regarding Mako, if I was living in Hungary.

Dear Elle and Zsuzsa,

The "smart money" is backing this, horse, so I believe the project is quite viable. Exxon, MOL as well as the bought off and silent Hungarian political class are all in on the deal, so it must be good, or they would get out.

The way things are looking, the project isn't going to be a big direct benefit to the people, unless they start buying shares and making a personal investment.

Cheer up ladies! The geologists think there is enough gas there to last a few generations, and extraction might become more efficient with time. Meanwhile things "on the surface" might change someday. A new political order may come about that forces some issues in a way that tips the balance of benefit more in favor of the people. For one, I can't see "non-taxation" as a permanent state of affairs. That will have to change someday. Anothe issue that can be forced is requiring the multi-nationals reinvest a certain percentage of their profits in Hungary. (These things have been done elsewhere.) A demand such as that is especially appropriate if they have been given a big tax freebie.

In other words, I'm hoping the supplies of gas will outlast the period of our corruption! The religious among us can certainly start praying...

We need only look at the barefaced admission on MOL’s ‘Ownership Structure’ page to see instantly that our commercial law is such that the ownership structure of this, the biggest company registered in Hungary that controls our best natural asset does not even have to fully disclosed: ‘Please note, that data above do not fully reflect the ownership structure in the Share Register. The registration is not mandatory.’ http://www.mol.hu/en/about_mol/investor_relations/shareholder_info/ownership_structure/.
Elle at February 15, 2010 5:47 PM
----
Are we not just a bit into conspiracy-theories now?
It is totally normal that shares do "not fully reflect the ownership structure in the Share Register. The registration is not mandatory"
The shares that I have in Sweden (cannot remember if I sold them or not actually) I can chose to 'register' or not.
The only thing is that when it is voting time I better prove that I do own my shares.
If I am not registered, the Company is (obviously) not obliged to inform me in person when the next vote is (the Company does not know me) and that is why all Companies must publish their next voting time in an official publication, for us to read, who do not want to tell the Company that we own their ass.
Welcome to Capitalism, Elle
Maybe a read-up on laws that regulates these things should be recommended?
I think you could find something on the Uni you claim you are spending your time with
-
And this is written by a guy who skipped Secondary School...

@ Farkas László
‘For one, I can't see "non-taxation" as a permanent state of affairs.’

László, are you assuming that non-taxation of MOL is the present case? My worst thought has been that MOL is not paying the tax it should be paying against its revenue size, which must be considerable. (If it were, Hungary would not be in financial trouble.) Profits that investors, e.g. Exxon, extract might well be tax exempt, depending on the bilateral tax treaty that is operative between the countries where they are domiciled and Hungary, on the terms and types of their contracts (eg. ICSID) with the government and the business domiciled in Hungary (e.g. MOL), etc. But a tax-exempt domestic company is unheard of, surely. The dickens! Do please tell me anything else you know on this point.

@ justasking

Hello, Zsuza! Well done with Falcon. I hope it gushes for you! And, of course, you must not forget László’s university when it does. Csokollak.

@ Viking
A company’s ownership structure is not a list of its shareholders by name. It is a breakdown of its shareholder sets, or classes.

Hi Elle,

My concern was about the taxation of foreign multinationals. Also I wonder about reduced or lowered taxes as well.

A company’s ownership structure is not a list of its shareholders by name. It is a breakdown of its shareholder sets, or classes.
Elle at February 16, 2010 1:26 AM
---
How many shares of type "A", "B" or "C" (with different voting-weights) is always known (Share Capital)
What is not known is who owns which shares, then shares are traded freely at any time and some one can hold shares in trust for some one else
This is the Registration procedure
Normally when you have amassed 10% or more voting rights you can push for a seat on the Board of Owners, but then you better prove that also
-
That the EU is against "Golden Shares" and shares with diluted voting-weights is of course true then those shares are used by a few powerful shareholders to get in capital to the Company, but not give out the power of votes
This technique has traditionally been used by the richest family in Sweden to control the most important Swedish Companies for decades since the 1930s
The Companies who has taken this procedure to European Courts have mostly been non-Europeans, like US Companies, then they claimed that different European been illegally too protective against foreign buy-outs from mainly the US

My concern was about the taxation of foreign multinationals. Also I wonder about reduced or lowered taxes as well.
Farkas László at February 16, 2010 1:37 AM
----
As an Hungarian Company MOL pays tax for its Hungarian operation, but a multi-national company like MOL, can chose where to have its HQ, where it would then normally pay the most tax
They way to 'cheat' (another word is 'plan') with the tax, normally used by most (all?) US Energy Companies, is to buy the products from outside the country they are selling it in to a higher price, creating a minus in operational cost
This is only illegal (tax evasion) if it can be proven that the buying price is artificially manipulated, which is not easy
For MOL, which has its HQ in Hungary, would then do the cheating in such way the money would be ending up abroad and MOL would officially make a minus
The problem in Hungary is that Companies pay tax regardless they make a profit or not. This differ from many other countries and it makes it not always a 'very good business' to take down the profit and being forced to pay taxes with new owner capital
That an Hungarian Company, like MOL, has Hungarian Owners does not change the taxation logic for Hungarian Companies like MOL
That there are different Joint-Ventures is one thing, but given the Hungarian Tax Legislation, it is more likely that those JVs are based abroad in a Tax Haven, which would be the optimal solution for the Share Holders of any Hungarian Company, like MOL

@ Farkas László

László, something is happening: ‘EU opens state aid probe into tax break for energy group Mol’, 13 January 2009, http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/1231860721.8. This might be worth watching.

The investigation, which was prompted by a complaint, targets the government's recent exemption of MOL from an increase in mining fees on hydrocarbon exploitation.

"The commission is concerned that MOL may be favoured vis-a-vis its competitors," EU Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes said in a statement.
---
So it is basically this type of tax breaks that Jobbik would promote - Hungarian companies getting better terms for competition than their peers from other EU member states

Hello Viking,

How will Exxon be taxed for it's share of Mako? What have you heard?

What are the taxation options open to the Hungarian govt for operations that are not registered in Hungary? Can a foreign registered firm get away with paying no local tax? Can tax incentives be applied, like pay less tax if you reinvest in Hungary for example?

Its all one long merry-go-round ride of corruption and never-ending scandal that goes on forever here in Hungary.
One stone is turned over and reveals twenty examples of double-dealing and misconduct. The Hungarian beach is awash with big rocks that conceal misdemeanours that stretch from the Carpathian Basin to tax havens around the world.
The Mako Gas Field will see the rich get richer.
(Tax free as well)

@ Elle;

I've been thinking how we can go about getting together to so that you can forward me some of your articles. I thought of creating a one time only e-mail and giving you the address, then ditching it after.

I will be in Hungary this Spring, we can always agree to rendezvous somewhere. I'll wear a tan coloured trench coat, with a fedora...that's how you will recognize me. Ha, Ha.

Seriously, if you have any ideas on how we can go about "talking", other sites etc, I'm open for suggestions. Take care.

Z

Hello FreeRide,

You have expressed succintly my own concerns.

One reason we (the posters here) are all struggling so much with the issues surrounding Mako, is because the poeple who hold resposible positions, in government, in political party leadership and MOL, are not forthcoming about the hard questions we are posing here.

Who gets what?
What taxes?
Where any of the original property owners in the production field offered "points" when they sold to the oil producers? (If not, they had poor representation!)
How will the billions pulled out of the ground benefit the nation?

Our shit political class has nothing to say about any of this. All we hear is silence. Orban's offer of free or subsidised energy is not enough. It's a cheap bone tossed to a gullible, poor and financially unsophisticated population. There is such a thing as "lost opportunity cost", and his free energy may end up costing the people more in lost tax revenues and opportunity than it gives.

Welcome to Nigeria.

How will Exxon be taxed for it's share of Mako?
...
What are the taxation options open to the Hungarian govt for operations that are not registered in Hungary? Can a foreign registered firm get away with paying no local tax? Can tax incentives be applied, like pay less tax if you reinvest in Hungary for example?
Farkas László at February 16, 2010 4:51 PM
----
Mako-specifics I do not know about and there is and will probably be some specifics there based on that it would be interesting to get in foreign capital to invest in Hungary for specific projects
The golden rule is that business is local and to do business in Hungary you need to have an Hungarian company
-
At least inside the EU a company belonging to another EU member state can do business directly but there are a lot of rules around that would make it impossible in something as big as the Mako-project, also the time of the project would kill that idea
-
So anything that would need licenses (and we speak a lot of them, with thousands of locals employed, with hundreds of sub-contractors) must of course be done in what is legally an Hungarian Company, either a RT or a ZRT. The difference is that ZRTs are publicly traded, not likely in this case. It could be a KFT, but the level of capitalisation would probably demand it to be an RT
-
If "Local tax" is to the local village, then it is something that has been fixed for other investments all over Hungary for a limited time
-
Cont

Cont
-
State Tax is another business
Remember that big noise in 2007 (I think) when Audi (or BMW) was pissed off due to a new company tax, I think it was called 'Solidarity'-tax', was introduced as part of the failed '300 HUF/Doctor visit'-package?
When the Hungarian Government did the deal with this specific Company they 'promised' (probably shook hands and looked each other in the eyes for a as long as a second) that 'no more taxes would be applied for the next 4 years'
I do not remember the details, but it was impossible to not apply the tax on this specific company also
That is the reason why the EU is looking into the "recent exemption of MOL from an increase in mining fees on hydrocarbon exploitation"
It flies in the face of 'Free Competition' and that state tax-payers money are not supposed to be use to favour one specific company or a group of companies, like 'Hungarian companies with max 10% foreign ownership' or what ever
-
So in general to do major business in Hungary a foreign company must set up an Hungarian company.
That company can be exempted from local (not state) tax and get other local freebies, like access roads built and new public transport set up to transport material and workers to and from the place
An important factor here is access to local skilled cheap labour, which in the Mako-case can be hard
-
That rich people get richer is an eternal truth, until we loose it all on gambling or shares

To ease the Hungarian gloom that Hungary is a country full of corruption I can just add that it was just published in Sweden that one or more Tax Office employees had cheated the Swedish Tax Office on allegedly up to 12 Million Euros, which is not a bad sum even in Forints.
-
On the other hand I was in Jobbik-land in the weekend (North Eastern part of Hungary) in 2 places speaking about starting new businesses
Of course the people I spoke with had a problem that I wanted to pay them white
When you officially live on a meagre income from your business, it is not so good to get paid a bunch of millions suddenly
I definitely need to get some black income, it seems impossible to make business here otherwise...

Control of the economy has been lost. The situation in Hungary is critical.
Tax avoidanec is legal but, tax evasion is illegal.
There are very few new jobs and businesses go bust as fast as corruption scandals are reported in the news.
Fidesz has no clear policies as to how it intends to deal with
the mess left by the MSZP. (This is the worst part of the equation).
Tax havens around the world hold trillions of euros. This money belongs to
Hungarian tax exiles who do not feel confident about keeping their money in Hungary.
Glorious chances have been lost over the past three years. Opportunities that only come once in a lifetime and other countries would certainly have converted into a success story.
It is time for every Hungarian to say, enough is enough, and start trying to change things by whatever means possible. To do nothing is a vote for bad government and corruption.
PS
The Mako Gas Field which should be a boon for the economy will not benefit the man in the street. The dividends will be shared out among the political elite and the multi-national companies that are past masters at using the profits to their own ends and means.

Control of the economy has been lost
remélni at February 17, 2010 12:13 PM
----
Given the fact that even the 'evil Communists' borrowed money from the 'evil IMF' in the 80s to fix the Hungarian State finances, it is questionable if there ever has been any 'control' over the economy, even during the nice 5-year plan economy, where 'control' was the most important word

Dear viking,

I thank you for your informed response. It is hard to counter the atmosphere of suspicion and distrust among the "common people", or even informed voters, especially when it comes to a high stakes project like Mako. This seems all the more so when the subject is off the table of political discussion, even in an election year. Do let us know if you find out anything else.

@ justasking

Hello, Zsuzsa! I’ve been thinking on it, but I made the mistake of referring the matter to my husband. He, the genius, suggested we co-opt the services of the turul madar. I couldn’t even thump him, for he’s driving as I’m bumping this note out. But I shall be at home (Hungary) for months after 1 April. We’ll think of something by then!

Kedves remélni,

If any average Hungarian is to benefit from Makó, I'm afraid that they will have to do so in the capacity of corporate shareholder, as I fear there will be no public policy response that will transfer much in the way of benefits from the wealth extracted, to the people via the govt.

Getting involved with share ownership would be a new experience for many Hungarians, I admit; but it's about time we "grew up", economically speaking. A people can't get by on just salaries alone, that's the sign of a poorer and less developed country and people.

If Makó pays off, then I can gaurantee that that wealth will be reflected in the prices of MOL and Exxon stock.

It's a risk, sure. Don't invest more than you could afford to risk, and consider pooling your investment money with those of others, in the form of an investment club, or buy into an energy related mutual fund. As long as citizens are allowed to buy shares (they haven't gotten around to making THAT illegal, yet), they should seriously consider doing so.

For us, I am afraid there will be no "Kuwaiti model" (The ruling Kuwaiti sheiks have paid huge cash gifts to every family in the kingdom
, not knowing what else to do with all that money!) We appear to be leaning more towards the "Nigerian model", which is no model at all.

@ Elle;

That would be great and until we do, take care.

Z

@ Farkas László

Dear László,

'EU Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes said: “The Commission is concerned that MOL may be favoured vis-à-vis its competitors. We have to make sure that no unfair advantage is granted to any company at the expense of Hungarian taxpayers."'
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/09/39

How 'bout that? This appeared on the European Commission's website today.

@ Elle & Farkas Laci;

" No unfair advantage is granted to any company at the expense of the Hungarian Taxpayer"

Forgive me; but, hasn't that been the "theme" or "attitude" by one Government after the other in Hungary for the past umpteen years?

I wonder if any of the agreements/contracts/decisions etc, that have been made/signed/granted to date, to MOL, can be either reversed/re-written, if it is eventually shown that there is a unfair advantage, and would MOL have to make retro payments because of this?

Thank you Elle!

The thing to do in such situations is to keep watching the stock price. If there is no big negative change in the next few months, then the market is discounting the bad news. If it goes down a few thousand FT per share, that just might be a buying opportunity.

Keep one thing in mind always: if this project is good and profitable for the future, it will be reflected in the stock value. So what if they get fined a few million Euros, that can easily be recovered out of what will come out of the ground.

Zsuzsa, as I understand it, the EU disciplining action in this case would be of the Hungarian government. If it is found to be in breach of EU equal-treatment regulation, it will be required to correct the breach. Normally in this circumstance, a government would not suffer any financial penalty unless somebody claims damages against it on that breach-related ground. (The government would probably argue in its defence that it is constrained by a contract with MOL that pre-dated its accession to the EU, or something like that.) What interests me more than anything is the implication that MOL is not paying the taxes it should be paying, courtesy whichever was the bastard government that enabled it not to.

László, I could not give a fishy hi-ho about the prospects of MOL’s stocks. I just want to see MOL made to pay a huge amount of tax in Hungary.

@ Elle;

" a fishy hi-ho"-that had me laughing out loud and I will be using it.

I agree with you though, to hell with the stocks and up the royalties that are to be paid to the Government, which should by right, trickle down to the people of Hungary.

This appeared on the European Commission's website today.
Elle at February 17, 2010 10:46 PM
===
The government would probably argue in its defence that it is constrained by a contract with MOL that pre-dated its accession to the EU, or something like that
Elle at February 18, 2010 12:28 AM
---
The Press Release was dated
Brussels, 13th January 2009
so it is over a year old
The conclusion of the 1st investigation, that started in 2008 was:
"Decision
1. In the light of the foregoing considerations, the Commission has decided to initiate
the procedure laid down in Article 88(2) of the EC Treaty, and requires Hungary, within one month of receipt of this letter, to provide all documents, information and data needed for assessment of the compatibility of the aid"
...
"3. The Commission wishes to draw the attention to Article 14 of Council Regulation
(EC) No 659/1999, which provides that all unlawful aid may be recovered by the Member State from the recipient"
-
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/register/ii/doc/C-1-2009-WLWL-en-13.01.2009.pdf
-
The Govt used Elle's argument in 2008, but it was refuted by the EC, as can be seen by the doc linked
-
I do have a problem finding out what happened with this issue in the end, given the fact that Hungary should have answered before February 13, 2009
Maybe they are still thinking about the answer?
Or some one out there knows more specifics?

Dear ladies,

I want very much for both MOL stock to go up AND for them to pay enough taxes for there to be social benefit.

I want for the possibility of good tax revenues, as well as for the chance for individuals to get rich, as I believe Hungary could use a few more millionaires! (Such a thing could have a big ripple effect)

One thing that always concerns me is disinformation, and so that is why I recommend looking at the stock price as one means of seeing through that. The market discounted bad news last Oct. for example.

Somebody else mentioned around here that they think the particulars of Mako are already a done deal, and that the citizenry are not going to have much input in it all. Given the corruption of the politicians, and the size of the potential revenues from the project, I don't doubt that may be true. If it is true, then it doesn't leave the individual citizens with much hope except to consider becoming shareholders.

I know that traditionally Hungarians have not been big stock market players, but I'm asking them to adapt and change.

@ Farkas László

'I know that traditionally Hungarians have not been big stock market players, but I'm asking them to adapt and change.'

Hello, László! Says one of the ladies: YA BOO!

The infamous Hungarian-American
Jewish billionaire said Gold is the
ultimate bubble.
Is this why he has just doubled his investment
in the precious metal?
The investment being something like
Hungary’s GDP for the next twenty years.
What is the reason for this.
Over to you FL or any up-and-coming
world economist?
PS @justasking. You assume the fish is caught
and is ready to be prepared for cooking?
Many a slip between cup and lip!
You can't loose anyway @ 14 cents a go.
Falcon should be a mighty hawk.

George Soros is the billionaire - for those who don't know already.

@Investor: You seem to have a grossly inflated sense of Soros's investment and worth, or rather underestimate of Hungary's GDP.

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:HUN&dl=en&hl=en&q=gdp+of+hungary

Set this against the news reports: "Billionaire investor George Soros' hedge fund more than doubled its bet on the price of gold during the fourth quarter, a portion of the firm's total U.S.-listed equity holdings of $8.8 billion at the end of 2009."

The reasoning behind his apparent contradictory statements seem pretty clear to me.

Unbelievable! Almost 20 comments without any reference to "Jewish commie Zionazi billionaires" - impossible here, but someone saved the day!

Must be another anonymous jobo lurking after the others have left the building ...

I went to a panel discussion with George Soros a couple of weeks ago and thought he was really interesting. One of the things I really liked was that (and I'm paraphrasing) that economics should be seen not as a mathematical science, but a social science. He was saying that no matter what your intentions are, there is always a gap between expectations and actual consequences and that this has a lot to do with the irrational behavior of human beings. As far as the gold bubble, he said, whenever he recognises a bubble, he buys, the trick is knowing when to get off the ride.
You know the strangest thing about the whole experience? As hard as I tried, I couldn't see his horns or tail.

@ Investor;

I am not the type of person that spends before I have, nor puts all my eggs in one basket. I do however, like to buy "high risk stocks" every once in awhile if something about it sounds interesting to me. I know that sounds silly, sometimes it works for me and others times not. That's why I only invest enough to not miss it is it's gone.

@Wolfie;

Just knock it off will ya? We don't need the peanut gallery (you) egging people on.

@justasking. Well you must have heard what Mr Micawber had to say about spending.
@Farkas Laszlo.Szolnok Formation of the Hungarian Makó Trough, and that the well has been temporarily plugged and abandoned to allow future access as required.

The well was flowed for a 130 hour period. Initial gas flow rates of 20,000 standard cubic feet (560 cubic meters) per day depleted to 7,000 standard cubic feet (200 cubic meters) per day at the end of the flow period. Initial water flow rates averaged over 3,400 barrels (540 cubic meters) per day going to approximately 300 barrels (50 cubic meters) per day at the end of the flow period. H2S rates averaged 50ppm and CO2 averaged 10%.
@Wolfi. You must be getting desperate now your friends have supposedly left. Which end of the bottle are you looking at?
The air down in Heviz must be affecting you.
The "jobbos" (I am not one) as you call them are out campaigning. They have just about given up on expecting your vote. You old scoundrel. I bet you were an International Socialist in your student
days. Spitting at reborn Nazis wherever they happened to show up. Or, maybe you were a Stasi member as Mark often suggested?

@Investor:

I always was and still am a humanist (liberal) and it seems the "left" in Germany hate me as much as the jobos in Hungary ...

@ Cinead, Wolfi, justasking

Re: "As hard as I tried, I couldn't see his horns or tail." - That's your problem related to your upbringing. You were simply poorly raised and was taught to judge people for who they are rather then look for horns and tails based on people's race, religion and skin colour. Bet some people around here had no problems finding the horn and tail that you missed.

Wolfi - you seem to have suffered from the same poor parenting skills.

justasking - I am sending info about Mako Oil to everyone I know who invests in stocks and I know quite a few people. I sent the website below as FYI , plus copies of some postings from politics.hu . If you know of a better website, let me know

http://makotrough.blogspot.com/

Regarding the horns and tail, you'd be surprised what make-up can cover up!

Regarding the horns and tail, you'd be surprised what make-up can cover up!
justasking at February 18, 2010 11:01 PM
---
So you are still surprised every morning checking the mirror before leaving home?

@ Viking;

Ssuhlammbb!! You got me good on that one, I'm impressed. Whats happening to you? That's the second time you made me laugh out loud.

"You a funny guy" (picture me saying this with a Chinese accent)

On a side note, I saw a bumper sticker that had me laughing and I thought that you would appreciate. It said " Worship me, or I torcher you forever... it was signed "God"

Zsuzsa: to be honest, I'm undecided how I feel about Soros. Just for the sake of clarity (for others) that he's Jewish makes no difference to me at all. While I do like the philanthropic work that he does and do agree with some of his theories of social behaviour and economics, I have reservations about the morality of his stock market dealings. One of my problems with high level trading in general is that a lot of it seems based on a false economy of perceived or expected value rather than something real. I admit that I don't know enough about Soros's personal dealings to make a precise judgement, but to me, the idea of furiously buying on what he knows is the up side of a bubble, only to sell before anyone else is, while 'smart', also has a big effect on smaller investors and just the cost of living further down the food chain. I like what Soros said that traders should never be allowed to gamble other people's money though, and I respect that he does 'put his money where his mouth is.' so yeah, I'm undecided. I still don't think he is the devil though...maybe a lesser minion perhaps. Besides, we all know George Bush is the devil don't we?

It said " Worship me, or I torcher you forever... it was signed "God"
justasking at February 19, 2010 4:53 AM
---
Yeah, that is one of my 'aliases'

George Soros is George Soros. It doesn’t matter about his religion or background.
(Not to me anyway.)
He has been convicted twice for insider trading. And he seems to like to play the vulture as far as -ailing- currencies go. This is his speciality. He made a killing in the UK when
the Brits courtesy of Lamont and Major played monopoly games on the Exchange Rate Mechanism and failed miserably. It took the UK ten years to recover from that economic debacle.
Soros saw the weakness and exploited it. Predators observe the law of the jungle.
Love or hate Soros many lessons can be learned from the way he operates.
(Excluding his penchant to cheat on occasions).
PS. Vándorló might like to comment on the OTP scandal involving Soros?

Viking: Wait...you ARE God? I thought you were an atheist? So you actually know for sure that you don't exist. "...and with that, God disappeared in a puff of logic." (Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy)

Dear Olga,

I checked your makoblog, and downloaded the PDF file presentation made by the Falcon geophysicist Hughes. (The presentation was made this very month, so it is faily recent.)

=================================================
Hungary Overview
• Six exploration wells drilled and cased to total
depth ranging between 3,600 and 6,100 meters.
All six wells encountered extensive gas shows
• Long-term production licenses secured for entire
BCGA resource under Falcon’s exploration license
– Acquired 1,149 square kilometers of 3D seismic data
• Entered into Production and Development and
Operating Agreements with ExxonMobil
– ExxonMobil and MOL have completed the Initial Work
Program of the agreement by drilling and testing Foldeak-1
• Algyo Formation above BCGA shows interesting
anomalies
– Recent analysis of reprocessed 3-D seismic data shows:
• Numerous anomalies (39) ranging from 4 km2 to 32 km2
• Possibly charged with hydrocarbons
• Potential reserve size ranges from 5 to 50 mmboe for each
lead/prospect
• Production license extended to include Algyo Formation

================================================

Thanks for the article!

I keep monitoring MOL stock prices as well. Within the space of just one year, MOL stock more than DOUBLED, going from 8000 Ft/share in Feb of 09 to over 17,000 Ft/ share this month (recent high over 20,000) There is something definitely going on here!

@ Farkas Laszlo

Perfect - will copy, paste and send another email out. Thanks

Important meeting re Mako Gas Field- 15th next month in London.
CEO and top execs. will be there.
Make a note!

Thanks for the reminder noteworthy!

It is wonderful what I am seeing here on the subject of Mako on this website! So many good people putting their heads and contributions together. Working as a group we can learn a lot and be better informed.

The "deal", such as it is (and I'm not exactly sure just what it is!), is a collusion by very big, powerful corporate parties as well as people within the Hungarian govt. I don't think the citizenry, through their political process (such as that is!) can make much of a difference to the overall arangements, although I'm open to discussion on that sensitive point. If that is going to happen, it's got to be brought to the fore in an election year.

It is my sincerest hope and wish that every person here, whatever their political pursuasion, find some way to personally profit from it all!

I will not let go of the subject. Instead of "cooling off", instead I see it all "heating up" in the next few years!

Best wishes and good luck for the future, to each and every one of us here!

@ Farkas Laci;

I heard today that Falcon stock trading has been halted pending some big announcement.

As for what you and Investor posted about the Well flows and analyzing of the 3D data, is a little over my head and I will be contacting a friend who can put this into English for me. If you want me to share what he has to say I will, if you understand all that info...I won't, just let me know.

@justking/FL. OK. Exxon wanted to recruit more specialists to deal with extracting the gas if the economics were right etc.
Gas is at extremely deep level further hindered by
a deluge of water.
Please keep posting whatever info you have.
I have some confidential news about the admin side etc but don't think it appropriate to reveal at the moment.
I will send it later next month.

@ Farkas László, justasking and Investor:

Hello, Laci and Zsuzsa and Investor!

I’m hanged if I shall ever get a handle on oil politics. How about this:

Both Exxon and MOL have suspended their Makó operations:
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9DVFA3G1.htm, but Falcon is still in.

I wonder if this has to do with Sugurneft’s 21.2% stake in MOL, and/or with the EU Commission’s now-commenced investigation of MOL’s mining-fees concessions:
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/register/ii/doc/C-1-2009-WLWL-en-13.01.2009.pdf ?

Will Exxon still retain its 40% ownership of the Makó fields? (Or maybe we shall get to grow onions in Makó again.) I wonder if now is the time to buy MOL shares (while the Makó trough is being talked down), or whether MOL's 'ultimate beneficiaries'- to be revealed to the EU Comm - are looking to scuppering the company.

Dear Elle,

The contradictions one hears in the public announcements regarding this project are truly something! It all smacks of "talking the market down" (so that key people can buy in lower) and disinformation. I've seen this sort of thing in other situations, but never before to such an extent and with such frequency! What this tells me is that there must be the expectation of a very valuable pot of gold down the line for those who are in the know and who are involved.

When people who have inside information on something this big want to buy more shares, then keep in mind they are not talking about 100 shares or so, but are thinking of buying thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of shares. It's hard to do that without causing a quick spike up in the share price, so they release these announcements from time to time, hoping that it would create a price dip for them to buy in. (So far MOL stock prices have not been negatively affected by these announcements, which to me is a good sign.)

If on the other hand they know the project is a potential bust, they would be doing the opposite; they would be "talking the market up" and dumping their holdings on the upswing.

(cont)

What we can be very sure of is this: that players as rich and big as Exxon, Falcon and MOL have done their feasability studies and geology reports. Trust me when I say they are very informed as to the nature of the project and what it might cost to get the product out. Exxon has already spent 19 billion dollars on this development, and you can bet that they would not have done that unless their technical people have assured them of the liklihood of payoff.

What these public announcements are trying to do, in my opinion, is to keep the stock price from "overheating", i.e. going up too fast. The insiders do want to see their shares go up, but not too quickly. Why? For people who already have a big stake, that can only make sense if they want to buy more(!)

There is enough gas in the Mako field to supply Hungary, Serbia, and Croatia, for the next hundred years.
Exxon does not have the expertise to get at it, though.
They bought another company that does.
Wait until after the 15th March before jumping to further conclusions. Let it rest for the moment.

I'm just curious if Investor who "has confidential information" which he can't release just now is talking the market "up" or "down"?
He certainly gives the impressions that Mako has a few hundred years of energy to HU, HR, SRB, and that Exxon now, has the expertise to get at it.
I just can't help wondering that "Investor" appeared after FL wrote to MOL telling them about this site and our interest.
Oooooh, conspiracy theories are catching, aren't they?

Dear George,

A person posting here, especially under a pseudonym, would not be in a postion to "talk the market up or down" as I mentioned it. I was referring to official announcements from the companies involved, some of which so far have been contradictory. Even those have not had the logical market response.

I prefer to not use the expression "conspiracy theory" when it comes to public announcements that could affect stock prices. What I have seen throughout stock market experience and history is the use and misuse of such information for the benefit of insiders who often want to buy or sell large blocks of shares. That can be quite illegal depending on how it's done, and would in many countries throw up a red glag for securities regulators. Post 1989 Hungary has been at this sort of thing for only about two decades, and many members of it's govt are suspected of corruption; hence there is a certain brazeness I sense to what is going on.

I am a bit beyond questioning project viability at this point. I'm assuming there is a lot of gas there to extract, otherwise the majors would have packed up and left by now, and MOL stock prices would be half (or even less) than now. What I am concerned with is what will happen when gas is extracted; will the rate of flow be reduced to support a world market price? Those who know the answer to that are not making public announcements!

Hi FL: hope all is well. Was just watching a report on Al Jazeera about the disaster on the island of Java caused by oil and gas drilling. Not that I really know anything about the geology of the Mako field, but I really hope that the environmental impact studies have been done properly, and that any concerns are met before drilling starts. I know it's tempting to rush into production when the economic climate is suitable, but the last thing Hungary needs is an ecological disaster like that.

@FL - I agree with most of what you said, but you misunderstood. It was just my (weak) attempt at conspiracy theories, in implying that Investor was trying to do that on a unrelated website with 567 readers/day.
Anyway, insider trading is a problem in real life, A stock-xchange in a emerging market with limited players & volume, and where information is scarce, is definitely more prone to disinformation, pumping up/down of prices, and insider trading. I'm not sure if you believe in the efficient market hypothesis (my wife is the expert on that), but you seem to take both sides with your posts.
I can only speculate about the viability of Mako, but as you highlighted, if someone like Exxon spends $19bn on it, they are not likely to do so if they didn't think it worthwhile.

But nationalistic feelings aside, why not hedge your bets and also buy Exxon if you want Hungarians to get richer? It is traded on a more transparent market, with much higher levels of scrutiny, and the market is more likely to get & price information about Exxon much better than of MOL on BUX. Also, if what you say is true, I get the feeling my (financial) interests would be taken care of more by Exxon than by MOL (I know it doesn't sound very nice for a Hungarian). But, in case, I sincerely hope you get your rewards in MOL, and that future elections & political maturity will result in greater transparency, higher accountability and better redistribution of wealth for the Hungarian people).

@FL - sorry that anonymous was mine!

Hi George

I've written quite a bit on the subject around here, and I did suggest that those who want to invest should consider investing in the other Mako principals besides MOL, especially Exxon. Look at the thread where I first brought up Mako:

http://www.politics.hu/20091117/orbans-energy-independence-pledge-just-a-bunch-of-hot-air#c41

What I did notice when I compared Exxon with MOL, is that MOL pays almost 5 times the stock dividend that Exxon does, an amazing fact in itself. Not only is that beneficial to the shareholder, but marks the company as a "cash cow" to corporate raiders and buy out specialists. Thus the shareholders of MOL could wake up one morning to hear that they are either being offered way over the current market value of their shares in a buyout bid (and those can be very lucrative), or they are offered a 2 or three for one stock swap in exchange for their agreement.

I also noticed that MOL stock has been doing a lot better than Exxon, especially in terms of steadiness of value. Because MOL is a lot smaller than Exxon, I reason that a Mako related windfall would more positively affect the price of MOL stock than it would the much larger, and more globally diversified partner.

I do make some use of nationalism as a device, hoping to get Hungarians more involved in corporate investing and shareholding, especially as it appears there would be no other way for them to directly benefit from the project.

Hello Cináed,

The problem you mention on Java is that of mud flows and "mud volcanoes". To get to the oil and gas they had to go through a lot of mud, thus releasing the pent up pressure and causing a mud burst. The problem could also have been exacerbated by an earthquake as well.

The geology of the Mako trough is very different, as almost 3 miles, or 6,500 meters of rock (and not mud) seperate the product from the surface.

Also, Mako is at least land based. The second largest gas field in Europe is in the Netherlands, and half of their field is under the sea, which brings a different environmental risk factor into the picture. So far the clever Dutchmen have managed it well.

Speaking of the Dutch, it would be clever of the Hungarians to try and learn a few things from them, as they are an EU member state that has been exploiting it's natural gas resources since the 1950's. They thus have 6 decades of experience with their own gas field, and they were big energy players even before that.

Hungarians should establish contacts and delegations with their producers and govt agencies. Of vital interest would be the production, marketing, processing, distribution of the gas, as well as the corporate, environmental, public policy, EU trade and taxation issues. Much could be learned from the Dutch experience, if only Hungarians would have the sense and humility to reach out to them.

FL: as long as people like you don't give up, there is always hope. I sincerely hope that Hungary does get the full benefit of the Mako gas, and that whatever happens, that the profits stay in the country rather than bleeding off everywhere else.
-
I figured that Mako wouldn't have a mud problem, as interestingly enough, Hungary's geology is very similar to where I grew up. I just somewhere remember seeing something about the gas being located in a difficult area with trapped water in the rock above or around it or something (can't remember exactly). Like I said, I'm no geologist, but I do know that unforeseen problems do occur...take the 'hot rock' experimental station in Australia that nearly ended up at the centre of the earth along with a nearby town, and the vast wastelands in former soviet union caused by a lack of respect for nature. I'm just saying that as a small and relatively less well off country, Hungary cannot afford any mistakes.
Good luck with your investments (and to everyone else who has invested), I hope it all goes well.

@FL: Thanks for all that info on the Mako gas field, makes interesting reading, even if I'm too old to speculate on that.

Don't want to be nitpickingthough, but some of your numbers are wrong, maybe just a typing error. How deep is that gas's location ?

3 miles would make it 4.827 m - we're not talking about nautical miles here, are we ?

Anyway keep up the good work!

Dear Cináed,

When I heard that Exxon will be getting 40% "bite" out of the whole project, I understood that a lot of the profit will indeed leave Hungary. Now this is because foreign capital was needed to get the product, so I believe in French they say: "C'est la vie"? (If we didn't need foreign money or expertise to get at the gas, it would be a different story.)

I anticipated this issue on the thread link I posted. There, I said that given that Exxon will be taking money out of Hungary when the gas flows, that some of that money should at least be "repatriated" to Hungary, by having Hungarians own Exxon stock. The wealth could partially come back by experiencing capital gains and dividends. It wouldn't be total payback of course, as Exxon has many shareholders, but then "half a loaf (so to spaek) is better than none"! Also, you can't deposit self pity in the bank!

Dear Wolfi,

You show the admirable German attention to detail on that one! The depth of the gas is quoted as a range, from 5000m to about 6,500m, given that it distributed in a curved pattern (hence it's called a "trough" or depression) Whenever you are talking either 3 miles or 4, that is deep, and hence quite expensive.

FL: If I had the money, I'd invest myself and find a way to spend the proceeds in Hungary. I'd love to travel there again. I miss the place. A colleague asked me how I felt when I was there and I just kind of looked at him...he said "Ahh, Hungary is now in your soul."

@FL - good call on the dividend yield. Absolutely right that the profit windfall would be larger for a company with smaller market capitalization.
I just was puzzled that you seemed to be say that the share price was a good indicator of market information, but also saying that the market price was being manipulated up & down by insiders for personal gain. Or maybe I misunderstood your earlier post.
I don't know about anyone trying to take over MOL totally. Somehow I find it hard to imagine that any Hungarian govt would allow that, and I hope they don't.

Dear Cináed,

I appreciate and understand your concern about not having enough investment money. It's a problem shared by many, especially in Hungary where wages and discretionary funds are not all that high. Here too I anticipated such an issue on the energy discussion thread I provided above. There I posed a number of rhetorical questions and responses, one of them being: "What if I don't have a lot of money to invest?"

To that I suggest that you pool your money with friends or family in an "investment club". There has to be a written set of rules that all participants sign on to, especially pertaining to buying decisions, pro rata profits and dividend reinvestment, as well as withdrawals. Go google this subject and you will find a lot out there that can help you get started.

You can also start by finding an online broker that will let you buy "odd lots" (i.e., less than a hundred shares at a time); some will even let you buy one share with no minimum account balances. (Some brokers want high minimum balances; shop around)

If you don't want to do an investment club with 10, 20 or 30 people, then you can also joint account with just one or two others that you trust, and just find a broker that will sell you one share at a time, and add to your joint portfolio each payday. When you look at it this way, then I think almost anyone could get involved if they really wanted to.

I'm not writing this for just Cináed , but others as well. Good luck!

Dear George,

I want to thank you and the others for keeping this very vital subject going! I enjoy responding to constructive concerns. The more we discuss and learn, the more we can appreciate that this is a complex subject with many pitfalls. It's like playing 3-D chess with extremely high stakes.

In terms of potential importance and financial return within the corporate world, the Mako project and it's future revenues are simply off the "Richter scale"! Estimates of future possible revenues of course vary wildly, depending on how much gas is extracted, and at what future market price. But even the conservative estimates are enough to make the savvy corporate chieftains of this world gasp and swallow their expensive hand rolled cigars!

No doubt in my mind that the well placed and powerful of this world view the Hungarian milleau with a certain amusement and condescension; that they must think that the country, it's govt and population are inexperienced and unsophisticated in the ways of power capitalism and how to regulate it or negotiate with it.

Now I can't prove that the public announcents are disinformation per se, intended to allow inside people to buy lower; I just suspect they are, and there is a lot of historical precedent for it. If I were in a position to really prove it, I would be immediately removed from my access to those sources, and dealt with in a number of possible ways. In spite of that, the market is discounting such efforts.

Hello again George,

When you ask about the possibility of an MOL buyout, here's what I know.

There was such a hostile attempt back in 2008 by a partially state owned Austrian firm called OMV, which many assume was backed by a Russian concerns as well, notably Lukoil and Gazprom. As much as 11.5 billion Euros was tendered for just MOL's refining division (!). The takeover bid was fought successfully, when MOL started a share buyback scheme (to drive up the potential price of acquisition to OMV) The MOL shareholders were the winners, as the price of their stock almost doubled as a result of these buybacks.

The Hungarian parliament then passed a law restricting the purchase of Hungarian firms by companies that are wholly or partially govt owned, which then knocked out OMV as a future bidder. This law does not prevent a wholly private firm from buying out MOL or one of it's divisions. Tht is an option MOL management might want to retain anyway, as they are all big shreholders themselves, and buyouts are very profitable for shareholders.

The Mako Gas Field.
Not a conventional field but a BCGA.
Basin Centred Gas Accumulations.=
A class of -tight sands-
Characterised by overpressurised,
gas-saturated, low permeability,
resevoirs.
They differ from conventional gas accumulations in that
they,
1) Cut across stratigraphic units
2) Commonly occur structurally downdip
From more permeable water-filled resevoirs
3 Have no obvious structural and stratigraphic
tapping mechanism.

Exxon are in no great hurry. Falcon perhaps are.
Falcon are the experts and they know the gas is there in large quantities.
The extraction is the problem. Needs expertise, and a lot more cash
invested.
Recently, Exxon have bought a company that specialises in
the extraction of gas from the BCGA type. (work out why).
And, there is no conspiracy theory. A meeting will take place in the
UK next month with the major players which is of great importance.

Falcon stock started trading again today, their up to a whooping 15 cents a share!!!

Dear Investor,

Semantics are important. "Conspiracy theories" are often based on paranoia and fear of power and powers beyond our control. I on the other hand, accept a certain amount of disinformation from corporate interests as par for the course, a minor annoyance to be gotten beyond. We can especially expect it in an environment where regulation of insider trading and behaviour is perhaps a bit lax.

The proof is always in the pudding. Keep your eye on the ball, no matter what. A stock that doesn't sell off on bad news is a good sign. If it does fall and comes right back, that also is good.

Talk is cheap, but that gas is worth money!

@justasking. A night on the tiles for us? One cent profit??
@Farkas Laszlo. I deal in facts. I don't need conspiracy theories which are bandied about by some of the lesser informed (read: halfwits) hereabout.
Falcon have persisted and insisted that Gas is
bountiful at the Mako trough. It is. Exxon are gathering momentum as to how and when they will strike!!!
I believe the meeting of the big players next month will reveal a lot.
Best wishes and look forward to Bela Lugosi tribute. When is it?

@ Investor;

Polish up those dancing shoes...

" I'm in the money, I'm in the money!" :)))

Hmmmm, what to buy first? A boat? Budapest? What to do, what to do!

Dear Investor,

I agree. People bigger than us have done their research and put up their money.

Bela Lugosi's birthday is Oct 20. In case you missed it last time, the thread link is:

http://www.politics.hu/20091019/news-flash-not-everything-that-happened-since-89-is-worth-celebrating

You should take a look at it. There is not only bio and film links, but a very lively discussion following with links to a lot of classic Hungarian film, newsreels and csrtoons. I have suggested to Erik that these film tributes be reused annually to keep the tradition alive.

Dear Zsuzsa,

That's the spirit! Better to dream big than not at all! "Mighty oaks from small acorns grow"!

@ Farkas Laszlo,

Please read this article : http://cnw.ca/en/releases/archive/February2010/19/c3263.html

When you encourage people to buy MAKO stocks to benefit Hungary, is it still the FO on the Toronto Stock Exchange?

@ Olga;

"Mako" is the name of the project. Similar to "Alberta'Suncor/Oil Sands" project located in Fort Mac. For you to invest into this project, you would have to go about by investing in one of the 3 companies involved that have partnered up. The 3 partners on this project are: a) Falcon Oil (FO symbol) on the stock exchange, probably Toronto's

b) MOL- Hungarian Oil company similar to our defunked Petro Canada

c) Exxon Mobil from the US

For us being Canadian, investing in a Canadian company (Falcon Oil) is easier than investing in say Hungary's MOL. THIS IS HIGH RISK STOCK, for every one that pays out, 10 fail. So if you are interested in investing, go with a small amount. Remember, until it's out of the ground (the gas), it's worthless, no matter how much is there underneath.

Just keep in mind BR EX. Remember that scam?

News of great importance to Hungary:

Exxon and MOL have withdrawn from any further exploration efforts in the Mako trough. They are leaving Falcon Oil of Canada to be the main developer. Falcon is looking for "strategic partners".

Exxon does not have the expertise to extract this difficult to get to gas deposit. What they did do about a month after their test well results, was acquire a firm that does have that expertise, XTO Energy Inc., for 28 billion dollars. It is not clear whether XTO will be used to help develop the Mako project further.

Falcon is left "holding the bag", mainly because they specialize in "unconventional gas", which is what the Mako deposit is. they continue to hold license to 247,000 acres.

MOL never sunk much money into the project, leaving that to foreign registered firms. I believe their role was that of "straw partner"; a partnership based on legal and operational concessions for their foreign partners.

According to the Budapest Business Journal, www.bbj.hu :

"The Makó trough belongs to MOL's “unconventional” portfolio."

"The company said it remains committed to this portfolio and to the exploitation of the future opportunities it holds. Accordingly, it will continue its operations in the western part of the Makó trough as well."

(cont)

From www.tradingmarkets.com:

"Falcon said that in accordance with the production and development agreement or PDA, ExxonMobil's and MOL's respective participating interests in the contract lands, the Foldeak-1 well, and all other interests will automatically revert to Falcon."

From Business Week:

"Exxon, which has been amassing leases in Poland and Germany to search gas-bearing rock formations similar to the Hungarian prospect, is maintaining an office in Budapest that employs almost 1,300 people, McGinn said."

"Exxon plugged the well in November and a month later agreed to buy XTO Energy Inc. for $28.3 billion, in part to acquire more sophisticated gas-drilling expertise."

"Dora Somlyai, a spokeswoman for Mol, declined to comment."

Ms Somlyai makes a career out of declining to comment, an interesting thing from a corporate public relations executive. She is the person I publicly and privately adressed on this website to inquire about project concerns a while back. That she woud blow me off is one thing, but in the above case she blew off Business Week and a Bloomberg reporter. Great job!

From www.portfolio.hu:

"MOL has three other unconventional gas exploration projects in Hungary, where the most promising one (Derecske basin) is already producing small amounts. MOL plans to drill two additional wells in this area this year and stimulate them in 2011..."

Portfolio.hu is a well put together business website in both English and Hungarian, that specializes in Hungarian corporate, stock market and economic news.

For those that want to contact MOL, here are some numbers and email addresses:

Tel.: +36 1 209-0000
Media relations
· Address: H-1117 Budapest, Október huszonharmadika u. 18.
· E-mail: internationalpress@mol.hu
· Mobile: (+36) 20/9-665-665

Investors relations
· Address: 1117 Budapest, Október huszonharmadika u. 18.
· E-mail: investorrelations@mol.hu
· Phone: (+36) 1/46-41-395

Checking the MOL website will not give any news (so far). Their latest news item from earlier this month is about a couple of medals won in a sabre competition! What I think of that, I'd rather not say.

@FarkasLászló
Stranger than fiction? Certainly surreal…!
"Old Mother Riley Meets the Vampire." Gordon, a frend of Lugosi, had arranged a Dracula stage tour for Lugosi in England. For $5,000, Lugosi, well past his prime, was eager to make the film.

‘The plot involves Mother Riley getting her mail mixed up with a mad scientist named Von Housen (Lugosi) who thinks he's a vampire. Mother Riley gets a killer robot, Von Housen gets a bed warmer. Von Housen uses the robot to kidnap Mother Riley to his mad scientist house, with sinister servants and secret passageways, etc. Von Housen, delighted to find out Mother Riley has his favorite blood type, serves her lots of rare beef and liver. Von Housen, also seeking uranium to build more robots, has kidnapped a young lovely (Maria Mercedes) and her boyfriend. The girl's dad apparently knows where to find uranium, or something.’
Add Ed Wood’s ‘Plan 9 From Outer Space’ (1959) and Lugosi must have fallen on hard times to participate in such rubbish!

So as a wrap up, (and then I'll open the forum to others)

Mako is now officially a speculative investment for Falcon. To get at the gas, expensive know how is required that even a player like Exxon does not have.

To get at the gas, much money will be required that MOL did not put up. That is why their stock price was not so negatively affected by the announcements of last October. MOL let it's partners sink the money.

MOL is not totally uninvolved from the project, and of course has many other irons in the fire globally. It appears to be a good investment overall given it's diversification:

"Hungary's MOL posted a fourth-quarter net profit of HUF 27.3 billion ($136.5 million), versus a loss in the year-ago period, as upstream performance improved while downstream remained weak."

(From Budapest Business Journal)

Yesterday's announcement is a big letdown for a nation struggling to find it's place economically. It goes beyond investor concerns.

I've received word from Müller András, editor of www.portfolio.hu about the prospects for Mako:

"As far as I'm concerned, it has been suspected for a while now - especially by those who have much more extensive knowledge of the issue than I have - that the whole project was a mistake."

"At this point, though I cannot tell you more than what was already published on our sites.
You find some related articles here:"

http://www.portfolio.hu/en/tool/search.tdp?q=falcon&x=0&y=0
but I'm sure you've already read these reports.

Regards,
Andras

I wish to thank Mr. Müller for his reply.

================================================
Dear BlackCatMoan,

Thanks for the information! Usually nothing cheers me up like talking about old films, and I do love our Mr. Lugosi, a fine Hungarian man! I have not heard of that particular film, so good research on your part! It's true that he accepted any role in any low budget horror/sci-fi film, where he was so typecast as villian or mad scientist. He did express his personal regrets for that off screen, wishing that Hollywood could use him for straight roles.

FarkasLászló. I wouldn’t be too concerned about recent announcements
Concerning the Mako Gas Trough.
All the techincal information has been made available. There is
Gas in sufficient quantity to make the project viable.
What has hindered the whole thing is, as usual, cash!
MOL won’t invest, Exxon are -edgy- because it is
a non-conventional gas field which is not their
speciality. Admittedly they have bought a company
recently that specializes in –tight sands- operations
but I think they are going to wait a while before
taking any further decisions on the Mako project.
I mentioned several times about a meeting next month
of the main players and it would be wise to reserve judgment
until then.

Dear Investor,

Your sentiments and encouragment are much appreciated! When I read yesterday's announcements, I thought of you and your posts actually. I sense you are right, but it will take time to see how things play out. I look forward to any future announcements. It is a waiting game.

It's such a bitch. That there is much value and potential wealth in the ground there is beyond dispute. The catch is getting it out and doing so economically.

When it comes to my own personal investments, I'm a big guy and can take care of myself. I know when to cut my losses short and all that. My concern on this website was motivated by more than just a desire for personal profit. Patriotism makes me want the the nation and my people do well also. The more of us benefit, the happier I am. Seeing Hungarians struggle breaks my heart. We've had too much ill fortune over the centuries.

@Cináed: "Was just watching… disaster on… Java" And I was just listening to Democracy Now about 'fracking:' 'two of the largest gas drilling companies have pumped hundreds of thousands of gallons of diesel-based fluids into the ground' http://bit.ly/ax8oYG that I mentioned on another board http://bit.ly/dadfT2 (#c325) earlier and I've been wondering what environmental damage these bastards have done already.

@Cináed, continued: There is also a Sundance prize winning documentary called Gasland http://bit.ly/5W4t2h that shows some pretty awful footage of shit that happens to your neighborhood when it gets fracked. ExxonMobile may just be laying low until they pay off enough congressmen to make their problem disappear… Also, they are only mentioning Földeák-1, how about the other Makó-Hajdúság wells? ExxonMobile has also kept all its offices and hasn't let anyone go in Hungary which doesn't sound like they are all done here. Hydraulic fracturing BTW is a Halliburton (yes, THAT Halliburton, Cheney's company) technology. If they come on board here we are screwed for sure, they are the scum of the earth. Unless Falcon Gas is not really owned by Halliburton already…

Hi Pav. Much has been said to me and about me, calling me anti-Hungarian etc, but believe me, when I heard that there was a significant amount of gas there, I rejoiced...energy dollars are big dollars. Hearing about 'fracking', incidentally, the Battlestar Galactica substitute for 'fucking', I just couldn't help but feel a sense of sick irony. Is it damned if you do damned if you don't with Mako? I hope there is a cleaner, safer way to get it out, and I hope that Hungary can cash in. This was the first good news I've heard in ages, and I hope it doesn't just end up another sad disappointment, or worse, an environmental disaster.
By the way, thanks for bringing back that thread...did you hear about this?
http://vindalooagainstviolence.wordpress.com/

@Cináed, more: The Malvinas debacle and Chávez's comments are also food for thought "La flota inglesa que se movió en el 82 para las Malvinas sabía lo que estaba haciendo. Ahí hay petróleo, ahí hay gas... A los ingleses se les está acabado el petróleo del Mar del Norte, están desesperados. Los yanquis están desesperados, no tienen más reservas..." http://bit.ly/aDmPUh The bastards are pretty desperate -- have been desperate for some time. Laci is right about learning from the Dutch but we could also learn a lot from Norway 'From the beginning, before the first drop of oil emerged, the oil and gas reserves within Norwegian jurisdiction were defined by law as common property resources, thereby clearly establishing the legal rights of the Norwegian people to the resource rents' http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/1199

@Cináed: "did you hear about this? … http://vindalooagainstviolence.wordpress.com " Sounds like a rip-off of Eat for Equity which is not the only thing they are ripping off but, hey, what else are blond people there for? Brumby has egg on his face though. Singh may have set himself on fire but apparently there were over a hundred similar incidents not just in Victoria ( where 'people are weird' :)) but all over Australia. Not much of a moral basis to call us waycists (waycist! waycist!) or help the Nazis kill Hungarians, is it? Australian citizens at that… Shame, shame. "anti-Hungarian…" Some people apparently confuse 'lefty' with anti-Hungarian when you're obviously more pro-Hungarian than many Hungarians. So is Vándorló BTW, he's just... ahem... 'misguided?' Your sources give me the heebie-jeebies and your ideas like chocolate for a dog -- just plain poison for us. We're NOT Australian, Canadian or Scandinavian: we're still dirt poor for Pete's sake. Hungary has also been ruled by learned helplessness for most of the past century if not longer while in the West learned stupidity is the preferred tool of governance.. Anyway, I think that your ideas are worse than the flu virus the conquistadores gave the Aztecs and the Incas but you really mean well and in that sense you're not 'anti-Hungarian.' "Is it damned if you do damned if you don't with Mako?" Well, we sure ain't Norway... I wonder how they did it. They used to be dirt poor too.

Pav: well, 'lefty' is not the worst thing I've been called lately. Rest assured, my tendency towards the 'left' in Australia is part a reaction to the racism and failure to the Australian people of the former government, and part a relatively greater degree of agreement to the 'less' racist and 'marginally' more environmentally responsible attitude of the current government. Will there be a day when I vote right again...quite probably.I also do agree that there is a racist element in Australia and it worries me that it's growing.I also posted recently that I don't think Australia can point its finger at other countries when it has its own issues at home to deal with.Despite characterisation to the contrary, I personally don't presume to lecture Hungary either.The most I ever do is express my disagreement with the opinions of individuals who post here.I also don't call Hungarians in general racists...only the racist ones.
-
what sources of mine don't you like? I'm just trying to remember what sources I gave.
-
chocolate for a dog...oh yes, I know what that's like.You're right, Hungary is not Australia etc, and I agree, the policies of its government need to be appropriate to the needs of its people. (cont)

I'm also not completely certain which ideas of mine you find objectionable.I will say that I have been thinking a lot about multiculturalism lately and do accept that what we have in Australia really wouldn't work in Hungary.I don't actually recall if I've ever said that it should though.Australia has more of a 'facilitation' or 'scaffold' system (that clearly doesn't always work) and that is just not the same Hungary.Anyway, I think the stronger Hungary is, the better.If it takes a right wing government to do that, then great.When I express my concern about what might happen in the future, mostly I'm thinking about how bad things turned out in the past when the nation rose up.I just can't help thinking that reformation and revival would be better than revolution. Again, this is my personal opinion, and I don't speak 'as an Australian' just as myself.
ps. I had to laugh at the 'blonde people' comment.Incidentally, one of my best friends in primary school was Indian. He was a nice guy, but I kind of avoided going to his place because his mum kept feeding me raw onion. ...like chocolate to a dog.

by the way...another Australian I knew in Hungary said to me once. "What's the difference between Australia and a tub of Yoghurt? The Yoghurt has a culture."

@Cini: "'lefty' is… a reaction to the racism" What do you mean by 'racism?' "racist element in Australia… worries me… growing" Why? What's wrong with it? "what sources of mine don't you like?" If I remember right you cited Freud and several members of the Frankfurt School as influences… "I'm also not completely certain which ideas of mine you find objectionable" Not really 'ideas' but your unwillingness to question dogma. I also didn't say 'objectionable.' I actually find myself agreeing with your opinions more and more and even when I don't I usually see where you're coming from. ( So, what do I say that you find objectionable? :) "I'm thinking about how bad things turned out in the past when the nation rose up..." A. k. a. 'learned helplessness?' "I just can't help thinking that reformation and revival would be better than revolution" Is reformation and revival possible though? And if yes, what do you think we should do first? "his mum kept feeding me raw onion" Chutney? Hmmm.. I LOVE Indian food. Take away my curry and I start posting on politics.hu :) "Australia and a tub of Yoghurt" And yet Australia is on top of every quality of life list I have seen.

@Cini, continued: I just hope there is no connection between no culture and happiness… As for _our culture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7AKPYyc08A or whatever is left of it if anything, I keep thinking of something that you once wrote about Hungarians wandering among the ruins of their civilization not even knowing what the ruins mean… It's an almost perfect snapshot of what we have become.