nu ,mark where are you with your comments ????

If Mr. Lieberman really wanted to prevent anti-Semitism from further spreading, why bother passing Laws in Countries, that in fact, have "prosperous" communities?

Why not focus on implementing such hate speech Laws in Countries like say Iran, where there is obvious and "in your face" anti-Semitism?

A few qoutes from fellow jews of judas--
Norman Finklestein- 'The holocaust is a shakedown (extortion) racket against Europe and used as an ideological weapon to wage war'
'Why is the holocaust seperate from all other genocides?'
Gilad Atzman- 'To oppose the jewish state and jewish nationalism (zionism)is the true meaning of the memory of the holocaust,to say NO to Israel is to say NO to racism'

No further comment is necessary from Myself,Mark,Law ,JustAsking and all the others that you would like to silence--your own people are awakening to the dangerous lies done in the name of Israel.

Actually Ricsi, that was not my point. My point was, that Countries around the World should not be expected to implement Laws on the demands of another Country.

I would expect that Israel have Holocaust denial Laws for that was why Israel was formed.

Asking for assistance via education on help to prevent spreading of anti-Semitism or any other type of anti-anything, I am all aboard.

Expecting Countries to fight Israel's battles via Hate Laws specific only to them, not kosher.

Holocaust remembrance is a boon for Israeli propaganda
Gideon Levy – Haaretz January 28, 2010
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=12059
This article is so well written by Mr. Levy that I hesitate to quote one part because I do not want to imply that the rest is not as important as the part I quote. However, the part I quote is especially significant for this discussion group where we have Jews pretending to be German, Hungarian, Irish and whatever and condemning Hungarians for not wanting to turn their country over to colonial interests. The Hungarian saying “bagoly mondja verébnek hogy nagyfejű” is very appropriate to these Hungarian haters.
We should be grateful to and honor decent Jews such as Mr. Gideon Levy. He has more humanity in one of his little fingers than all the Jews spreading hatred on this list and elsewhere.
Here is the part:
“Netanyahu spoke of a new "migration policy," one that is evil through and through. He malevolently lumped together migrant workers and wretched refugees - warning that they all endanger Israel, lower our wages, harm our security, make us into a third-world country and bring in drugs. He zealously supported our racist interior minister, Eli Yishai, who has spoken of the migrants as the spreaders of diseases such as hepatitis, tuberculosis, AIDS and God knows what else.”

Judas: “nu ,mark where are you with your comments ????”

What do you want me to say about Avigdor Lieberman the terrorist, racist, hate monger, war criminal nazi? You must have never read any of this racist’s comments not to laugh out such a man wanting a “hate speech law”. Lieberman is hate. What else is to say?

Does Murkybrain really believe that Viking, me and some others are "Real Jews" or what goes on in his deluded head ?

Has politics.hu turned int antisemitism.hu or what ?

Mark and justasking, take heart! I have. A Google search will reveal that only jew papers marked ‘ “ holocaust” remembrance day’. That, I’m sure, was on orders from jewry’s leaders to their international media empire. They know that holocaustfesting only magnifies Israel’s, and jews’ generally, vital-organ-thieving, child-murdering depravity.

A Google search will reveal that only jew papers marked ‘ “ holocaust” remembrance day’
Marksupporter at January 28, 2010 4:54 PM
---
Is this a self-fulfilling prophecy?
Just define any paper honoured the Holocaust Remembrance Day as Jewish and you have immediately 100%. Real clever argument.
-
Exactly the level of cleverness the Jobbik-Nazis who love to honour the Nazi 'Day of Honour' in Budapest (http://dayofhonour.hu/).
Just do not complain that people will not be so happy with your Neo-Nazi celebrations.

How glad we Hungarians are to have Israeli cabinet ministers informing us of what our domestic legislation should be.

And how kindly they take to it, when anyone internationally attempts to do the same to them.

There is nothing Nazi about Jobbik but Avigdor Lieberman and Israel are Nazis.
Why be so modest? Hitler would be so proud of all you Jew Nazis.

Justasking wrote:
"Asking for assistance via education on help to prevent spreading of anti-Semitism or any other type of anti-anything, I am all aboard. "

Hahahahahahah you're KIDDING, right? All anyone has to do is mention "jews" on this site and you are ALL OVER that action! I don't know WHY, don't much care, but clearly any outsider can see Jews get stuck in your craw for whatever reason. Your problem...

Mark wrote:
"Lieberman is hate. What else is to say?"

Well, how about this... Mark is hate... what else is there to say?? Pot/kettle/black

Do you not see the irony?

Oh well, like FL says this is all SO tiresome!

Indeed very tiresome, especially when a terrorist, racist, Israeli leader famous for his hateful speeches and actions comes to Hungary asking for hate speech law.
One has to be blind not to see the irony in that.

How glad we Hungarians are to have Israeli cabinet ministers informing us of what our domestic legislation should be.
bobscountrybunker at January 28, 2010 6:30 PM
---
Probably as glad the Slovaks are when the Hungarian politicians tell them how they should write their Language Law?
====
One has to be blind not to see the irony in that.
Mark at January 29, 2010 8:33 AM
---
To be against hate-speech laws does not mean that one need to hate Jews, like Mark and his ilk.
And that is definitely no irony, just simple fact. The most outspoken critics against any hate-speech laws are the pro-Nazi groups, which on an European level are on small level.
The main anti-immigration popular movements in Western part of this continent are more anti-Muslim and pro-Zionists. This anti-Jewishness is mainly a thing in the old Soviet-occupied part of Europe.
Nowadays even Jews vote for Le Pen in France.

I am not a supporter of those people who just rant and rave and blame the jews for everything.
Nor am I a supporter of a regime that should put its own house in order before suggesting what other countries should, and should not do.
My personal feeling is that the Israeli government is just another outside entity that
believes it can kick poor old Hungary around like
some pigs-bladder of a football.
How Israel has the bloody nerve to voice its
ill-founded comments and the sheer audacity to
intefere in issues of a separate and independent sovereign state, I just don't know.
Maybe they would be better off considerings how many friends they have made (not) in the handling of the Palestinians?

every time I am surprised that members of the Isrealian government tell the independed state of Hungary what to do!!!!!!!
It is a big shame on Hungary that no one in Hungarian politics tell them to mind their own business!

So Lieberman we are not a province of your country!!

geza,
liebrman told Hungary what to do?????
Where do u take that from?
He noted that Hungary ,as a state( and that does not mean u personall agree wit that)had an outstanding position among israel's friends and he expressed hope that "modern states" like Hungary would "reinforce Israel in its fight" for example to fight anti-semitismn.
Do not spoil Hungarys good image it got itself.
Or are you a nihilist?

justaking,

it seems to me your propsal to call on Iran to
implement holocaust denial laws is with the current leadership there a bit out of contact with reality. Once the iranians choose to oust their current leadership,and it seems the persian
population moves in this direction,there might be no need anymore for laws like this.Iran has historically always had good relations with the jewish state.

justasking,

israel should implement holocaust denial laws???

I somehow do not quite follow(maybe due to intelectual shortcomings) There are no holocaust deniers in israel as far as i know ??

@judas;

My point was, implement all the Laws you want regarding the Holocaust in Israel and keep it there.

The excuse being used to introduce specific Hate Laws in Hungary and other countries, is "to prevent anti-Semitism from further spreading" Bullshit.

If Israel was that concerned about hate speeches directed towards groups of people and wanting the World educated so that Genocide, Holocausts etc, never happen again, there would be a push for a blanket Law on hate that would include EVERYBODY.

Israel could give 2 shits about other groups of minorities, they are only interested in taking care of their own, as they should. Just please, stop the fake "not wanting this to happen to others what has happened to us" speech.

But my favourite part in all this, is that I am suddenly an anti-Semite, which is news to me, just because I do not agree with such a Law.

So excuse me, if I am starting to believe that there may be an ulterior motive behind this Law, when I get unjustly labeled by a person who claims to be Jewish.

Things that make you go Hmmm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein
More than one insane and extremist Jews called Dr. Finkelstein, an outstanding scholar and fantastic human being a “holocaust denier”. It just shows how low and evil some of these insane and extremist Jews can go.
While any group would proudly call Dr. Finkelstein their own, scum like the terrorist, racist Avigdor Lieberman is despised by most. Dr. Finkelstein speaks in defense of abused Palestinians and for that, he is hated by such extremist scum as Dershowitz and his ilk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein
More than one insane and extremist Jews called Dr. Finkelstein, an outstanding scholar and fantastic human being a “holocaust denier”. It just shows how low and evil some of these insane and extremist Jews can go.
While any group would proudly call Dr. Finkelstein their own, scum like the terrorist, racist Avigdor Lieberman is despised by most. Dr. Finkelstein speaks in defense of abused Palestinians and for that, he is hated by such extremist scum as Dershowitz and his ilk.

Time for some history obviously:
The Jewish community is not a single united group and responses vary both between and within Jewish groups
One of the principal divisions is that between secular Jews and religious Jews
The reasons for secular opposition to the Zionist movement (where it existed) were very different from those of religious Jews
Prior to WWII many Jews regarded Zionism as a fanciful and unrealistic movement
Many liberals during the European Enlightenment had argued that Jews should enjoy full equality only on the condition that they pledge their singular loyalty to their nation-state and entirely assimilate to the local national culture;
they called for the "regeneration" of the Jewish people in exchange for rights
Those liberal Jews who accepted integration and/or assimilation principles saw Zionism as a threat to efforts to facilitate Jewish citizenship and equality within the European nation-state context
The full knowledge of the Holocaust altered the views of many who critiqued Zionism before 1948
And it is here we come to people like Mark
Mark just loves the Jewish State of Israel
It is no wonder that Mark regard the
http://dayofhonour.hu/
as an 'Patriotic Hungarian' event
The people who killed the Jews are to be honoured
The killers' Jewish victims are to be dis-honoured
No wonder Mark loves the Jewish State of Israel because in his world it was created to keep the Jews out of Hungary, hence Mark's 'Heroes' succeeded and need to be 'honoured' on Feb 13

Don't know how a viking that sailed his longboat up the Danube would know so much about jewish history.
And, for that matter, why he should be so concerned.
Unless, of course, that he is a member of
the twelve tribes himself?
Perhaps you might go so far back in history as to remind us all of Moses, the Burning Bush, the Feast of the Passover, Pogroms, the Pharisees, the Wailing Wall, etc etc.
I feel sure that Mark is holding his breath in
uncontrollable anticipation. I know I am.
The jewish parliament should pass an act to prevent loud mouthed jews telling other nations what to do.

The jewish parliament should pass an act to prevent loud mouthed jews telling other nations what to do.
Detente at January 29, 2010 9:44 PM
---
Like Hungarians telling the Slovaks were to put their Language Law?
You make a good commercial for Slota.

@Detente:

Perhaps you are a little jealous someone else is more educated than you? I am a Jew and I would say that Viking seems to know quite a bit about history and contributes a lot to these threads.
You, on the other hand spit the words "Moses" and "burning bush" out of your mouth like they are poison. I am assuming you are not Christian then because these things are "supposed" to be special to Christians too (just like they were to Jesus... who was born a Jew). I'm sure you would spit on Jesus himself were he to appear before you. And again I hope there IS a Hell, a place for people like you.

@Justasking who said "Israel could give 2 shits about other groups of minorities, they are only interested in taking care of their own, as they should."...
Well I can't speak for the State Of Israel since I am American and have many disagreements with Israel's policies... however if what you meant to say was (and I think it partially WAS) is that "JEWS could give 2 shits about minorities..." then I would say that you are WRONG, since many human rights movements for ALL peoples not just Jews (incl. Amer. Civil Rights) have had Jews in instrumental roles... I was brought up learning a racist of any kind is the worst possible hypocritical thing I could be (eg use "N word" etc) because people throughout history discriminated against us, and so we should FIGHT racism to help the world. Justasking gave away HER philosophy taking care of their own, as they *should*." Why?

@ anyone

What exactly is a Nazi Jew? I think maybe it's Wolfi.

He is German and does not hate anyone. Am I on the right track?

So German = Nazi
Not hating minorities= Jewish

Got it!

Wolfi - at least you are in good company with the Present Pope

I was sent a video link for the Pope's recent speech. (haven't seen it, not much into religion)

For anyone interested this is what I was sent

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2010/january/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20100117_sinagoga_en.html

BTW -How come Rakosi hasn't been mentioned on this thread yet? Mark, you are lagging behind

@ Bystander

I am so sorry to break this to you but you are behind the times. Jesus was not a Jew.

We have been fed a lie for 2000 years - every mainstream Christian religious leader today is blind to the truth. (Even the Muslims have been mislead in the Quoran)

"The Truth" according to Law is that Jesus was not Jewish. Now instead of wasting time on your silly postings, just get busy and thank the Lord that you have stumbled upon this great website and learned what most mortals don't know.

Are you saying to yourself : "If Jesus was not Jewish, what was he?"I have no idea, you have to ask Law. The truth has been revealed to him.

@Bystander;

I am going to make clear, my position on Laws that prohibit individual opinions, once and for all, and no more.
When Laws are introduced, that dictate to me, what I can and can not believe, what I am and am not allowed to question, I consider that censorship in it's truest form. Period.
We are all trying to carve out an existence on this Planet. I do not believe on group of people are above another, I am honestly of the belief, that we are all equal.
Extremism in any way shape or form, I will not tolerate and in fact condem. Yes, that also applies to Hungarians, Canadians, Muslims, Jews, Swedes, Brits, etc, etc, etc.
You assumed that I had a hidden meaning when I wrote "Israel could give 2 shits". No, I wrote, what I meant to write. If I would have meant "Jews", I would have wrote Jews. We are talking about what the ISRAELI Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister would like to see forced. I already gathered he was a Jew.
As for my "philosophy" on my Country taking care of it's own. I demand it. Don't you?
It is the duty of my Country to promote and protect it's citizens, in anyway shape or form. Nothing more, nothing less.
Judas said, "why introduce Holocaust denial Laws to Israel, when nobody denies it? That was my point. Countries can not be and should not be allowed to force their views/beliefs/histories above and onto others, in the name of "protection". It is not protection, it is CENSORSHIP!

@ Viking;

Why don't you just focus on pushing Granny off a hill, so that you can get an extra muffin okay?
Your "survival of the fittest and all".

Lets just leave Slovakia and it's language Laws out of this, before it gets suggested that Israel support the reversal of Trianon and supporting of anti-Hungarian hate speech Laws?

What do you say Bjorn?

Bystander: “I was brought up learning a racist of any kind is the worst possible hypocritical thing I could be”

Just as long as it does not condemn JewNazi racism against Palestinians. Right? Where are all these “holocaust” promoters and “hate speech” fighters when it comes to Israeli genocide of Palestinians? Lieberman is one of the worst racists, a terrorist and a hatemonger.

“BTW -How come Rakosi hasn't been mentioned on this thread yet?”

Rakosi the sadistic Jew monster was no more Semite than Lieberman who appears to be a reincarnation of Rakosi.

@Bystander. You are a self-confessed idiot of no fixed abode. Hell would welcome people like you with open arms. "Educated"? Don't make me bloody laugh you gormless fucking moron!
@Viking. Minimum effort for maximum result?
About time that longboat went into dry dock.

When Laws are introduced, that dictate to me, what I can and can not believe, what I am and am not allowed to question, I consider that censorship in it's truest form
justasking at January 30, 2010 6:54 AM
---
We are discussing 'Hate Laws' that would limit peoples right to 'freedom of expression', not limit their possibility of 'Freedom of thought', how 'justasking' justproposed
-
From wiki:
Freedom of thought (also called freedom of conscience and freedom of ideas) is the freedom of an individual to hold or consider a fact, viewpoint, or thought, independent of others' viewpoints. It is different from and not to be confused with the concept of freedom of expression
-
From wiki:
Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak without censorship and/or limitation. The synonymous term freedom of expression is sometimes used to indicate not only freedom of verbal speech but any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used. In practice, the right to freedom of speech is not absolute in any country and the right is commonly subject to limitations, such as on "hate speech"
-
So, 'justasking' no one will limit your ability to think, just limit the ability to freely express opinions that are not in line with the current legislation
In a sense we all accept this, then we accept that people can take each other to court over libel, so obviously there is no such animal as 'Free Speech', it is more a question of 'Free Hate' or 'Limited Hate'

Lets just leave Slovakia and it's language Laws out of this
justasking at January 30, 2010 7:09 AM
---
Why, ask the Slovak Nationalists what they think of Hungarian opinions on 'their language law'.
Are just not the Slovak Nationalists doing what you are stating a few minutes before:
===
As for my "philosophy" on my Country taking care of it's own. I demand it. Don't you?
It is the duty of my Country to promote and protect it's citizens, in anyway shape or form. Nothing more, nothing less
justasking at January 30, 2010 6:54 AM
---
The Slovak Nationalists are just "promote and protect it's citizens", at least the 'Slovak majority' and 'protecting the majority' is never bad when we speak about protecting the 'Hungarian majority' in Hungary against those evil Jews and Roma, right?
I have noticed that you are always changing principles depending what you are debating, or more you maybe do not have any principles?

@Olga.

Thanks for your kind comments, but I'm not into religion at all ...

About the German pope Benedict: He was at the university where I studied in the late 60s, but he left because of the revolutionary and unmoral goings on there, you know "sex and drugs and rock'n'roll" ...

I was in the middle of it too, organising a cconcert with the German/American group Xhol Caravan and demonstrations against the catholic church's stand on sexuality.

Did you know that into the 60s in Germany we had laws which made abortion, adultery, a doctor sterilizing a married woman who wanted no more children, homosexuality and so on a crime - even if a house owner let a girl stay overnight with a student that had rented a room, he could have gone to jail for "Kuppelei" like a pimp ...

So my stand on religion is similar to Richard Dawkins' who wrote " The God Delusion".

I'm more for humanity and decency - you don't need religion for that ...

To conclude from my earlier post:
-
The rationale is that Hungarians want to protect 'its' minority in Slovakia (and the rest of old pre-Trianon).
Israel wants to protect 'its' minority in Hungary, so the principles are the same, hence the contradiction when people who here argue Hungary's right to do this, then are upset when another country do the same.
In both cases there are difference in opinions among the different minorities in the 'helpfulness' of whatever the 'Home-Country' comes up with.
Not all Hungarian-speaking Slovaks are happy with this hard speaking between the two countries, then they would like to solve it as an internal Slovak matter.
I would assume that not every one identifying themselves as a Jew in Hungary are happy over statements from any Israeli Government about things in Hungary.
It just works that way
And principles for what is right and wrong should not change just because we pass a border to another State

Viking,

"Hungarians want to protect 'its' minority in Slovakia (and the rest of old pre-Trianon).
Israel wants to protect 'its' minority in Hungary, so the principles are the same,"

Well, one of the principles in the same - that an ethic state has the right to act to protect members of that ethnic group that live outside its borders. But the other principles are different; that expressing an opinion that is anathema to an ethnic group -'Holocaust denial' - should be punished; and that an ethnic group should be free to use their own language in the public sphere.

I don't agree that the British state should interfere with Hungarian domestic politics on behalf of ex-pat Brits like me (in anycase the EU will do it for us). So I don't agree that Israel should tell Hungarians what to do. Nor do I agree that the Hungarian state should tell Slovakia what to do (but I think the EU et al should stop sitting on the fence and clip the Slovaks around the ears).

Otherwise I am as in favour of of the legal recognition of Hungarian in Slovakia as I am of Welsh in the UK, or Sami in Sweden. As for Holocaust denial - no thanks, not interested in burning heretics.

Sophist,
I think we agree on the Slovak situation, I did not equal, even if it came out that way maybe, the Hungarian demand on Slovakia with the Israeli demand on Hungary.
The 2 situations are different also.
As you noticed it was on a level of 'if we accept that we can tell others, then we must also accept that others tell us'
Another thing is if we really like to be told (which ever country we live in) by some one else.
A third dimension is of course is a specific demand 'correct'?
If we look at an out-side report:
The "very high level of constitutional protection afforded to the freedom of expression has to date made it impossible for the authorities to legislate effectively against racist expression: under Hungarian law, only the most extreme forms of racist expression, i.e. incitement liable to provoke immediate violent acts, appear to be prohibited, a standard so high that it is almost never invoked in the first place. While it is true that legislation alone cannot turn racist attitudes around, the almost total absence of limits on free speech in Hungary complicates the task of promoting a society that is more open and tolerant towards its own members"
(Fourth report on Hungary 24 February 2009, p 8)
http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/ecri/Country-by-country/Hungary/Hungary_CBC_en.asp
The link give an option to chose the English, French or Hungarian version
-
Cont

Cont
-
Sometime in 1982-83 the Hungarian Oi-band Mos-oi went to jail for performing their extremely racist song about killing Roma and creating 'Gypsy-Free Zones'
Today you would not be jailed for that.
Today we do have Racist Serial Killers (The Debrecen-Nazi) that have their roots in the middle of 90s Hungarian Skinhead movement, were songs like Mos-oi's were very popular and 'Gypsy-Free Zone' was their graffiti
Part of the 'Debrecen-Nazi' were even convicted for a break-in and vandalising the synagogue in Debrecen middle of the 90s
-
Would a 'HateLaw' have picked up these guys before and spared some Hungarian lives?
Clearly a 'HateLaw' would have criminalised these guys before, even if one already had been convicted (but he was a good boy inside, like the Debrecen court thought). These guys were given all signals by society that it is OK to hate, it is OK to be a racist
Is that the society we want?
-
I agree it is always a hard question where to draw the line, but only Hungary have Racist Serial Killers and Hungary is one of the countries with the most relaxed laws on 'Hate Crime' and 'Hate Laws'
Maybe there is a connection?

Maybe you've heard already of this prototype of a catholic reactionary and holocaust denier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Williamson_%28bishop%29

People like him are one of the reasons why I won't have any thing to do with the catholic church. The German justice system is trying to get hold of him - I think he should rot in jail (hell, if there were a place like this ...)

Viking,

"I agree it is always a hard question where to draw the line"

For me it's pretty straightforward, because I regard the distinction between opinion and incitement is an instance of the is-ought problem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is-ought_problem

The example you give, a song "about killing Roma and creating 'Gypsy-Free Zones'" is about what ought to be done, and is definitely incitement and should be treated criminally. But claims about the holocaust are about what is (or was) the case, and do not logically imply that Jews ought to be killed or persecuted in any way.

In fact, although I recognise that a lot of antisemites deny the holocaust, it is not obvious why this is important to them as antisemites. For example, as a Brit I'm profoundly prejudiced against the French, but I celebrate those historical occasions where we have kicked French butt: Agincourt, Seven Years' War, etc. It seems odd to me that antisemites don't want to celebrate the holocaust as their finest hour.

(cont)

Viking, (cont.)

I can think of two possible explanations for this strange behaviour:

1) They are conflicted about their antisemitism. They hate Jews, but are ashamed by the expression of that hatred in the holocaust. Holocaust denial neatly takes away the shame, and replaces it with another reason to hate the Jews.

2) Their antisemitism is subordinate to their paranoia, Jews are the hidden persecutors, and the "holohoax" an instance of that persecution.

In either case I think therapy is a more appropriate response than punishment.

Why is it that Zionazis parading as everything under the sun but Jews are so eager to enact “holocaust denier” laws? It should be obvious that with a “holocaust” law written the way they want they would decide who is and who is not a “holocaust denier” and use that power to silence the critics of the racist, inhuman, genocidal actions.
MSZP, the party of horrible Communist, mostly Jewish Communist murderers wants a “holocaust law” that would make it a crime to mention the crimes of Jewish Communists. That would give them free run to defame and condemn everyone without their victims having any counter argument against their lies and distortions.
It is best to insist on protection of freedom of speech because the laws they propose would make slaves of everyone to their never-ending one side propaganda.
Most decent Jews oppose the use of "holocaust" propaganda as a weapon against others.

@ Sophist

The two reasons you gave for denying the Holocaust makes sense.

However, no matter how anti-semitic people are, there are 3 to 5 million non-Jews killed in the Holocaust (numbers vary according to sources)

I came across this website once while trying to figure out numbers. I don't think the author is
"an authority" - I am only quoting it because I think her pain comes through loud and clear about the forgotten non-Jewish victims

http://remember.org/forgotten/

BTW - have you ever heard a Jewish person complain about Hitler and the past as Mark complains about the Communists?

Also, why is Pope Benedict so adamant about not forgetting the Holocaust? Being my cynical self, would he prefer the world to focus on Hitler atrocities as opposed to the Catholic Church scandals? Maybe, maybe not. Just a thought.

From a speech made by Pope John Paul II

"As bishop of Rome and successor of the Apostle Peter, I assure the Jewish people that the Catholic Church, motivated by the Gospel law of truth and love, and by no political considerations, is deeply saddened by the hatred, acts of persecution and displays of anti-Semitism directed against the Jews by Christians at any time and in any place.

The church rejects racism in any form as a denial of the image of the Creator inherent in every human being."

Oh well, probably he was just another Communist Jew pretending to be as a Catholic with a Polish background. (ask Law and Mark, they have the inside scoop)

@ Viking;

I am very well aware of the difference of between "Hate Laws" and "Freedom of Expression" without having to run to Wiki for a definition.

If you would reread the article above, Israel is pushing for "Holocaust Denial Laws", sighting that this type of Law would help prevent the spread of anti-Semitism. That's their argument.

The way I see it, censorship is being tucked into a blanket, in this case the "blanket" is a Hate Law. So if somebody were to say no to the proposed Law (Holocaust Denial), it can be thrown in their face that they are than anti-Semetic.

So when I said that about "somebody telling me what to do and think etc, I was referencing the prposed Law of Holocaust denial.

I personally like to compaire apples to apples and not apples to oranges when I am making a point.

You see, your example of Slovakia and the Hungarian Minority re: Language Law is a apple to oranges comparison, when used against the proposed Holocaust Denial Laws. You see, the Hungarians living in Slovakia are in the same position that the Palestinians are in with Israel. THEY BOTH HAD THEIR LAND STOLEN FROM THEM! These 2 groups of people are essentially fighting to keep evidence of their very existance, alive on their own land. Can you at least try to appreciate that?

So no, my principles do not change with each debate I enter into, they remain the same. You try and make them appear to have changed with the way you twist what I write around.

Justasking: “You see, the Hungarians living in Slovakia are in the same position that the Palestinians are in with Israel. THEY BOTH HAD THEIR LAND STOLEN FROM THEM! These 2 groups of people are essentially fighting to keep evidence of their very existance, alive on their own land.”

Do you expect that to acknowledge the difference? Part of the idea of “holocaust” laws is to be able to accuse those who oppose Nazi Israel’s treatment of Palestinians “anti-Semites”. The funny thing is that these people are not even Semites. Lieberman and Weasel said just about that much on their visits. These are heartless murderers, war criminals and human right violators trying to play the role of innocent victims.

Olga,

"The two reasons you gave for denying the Holocaust makes sense."

This makes me very uncomfortable - I don't accept any "reasons" for denying the holocaust. If I did I would be a holocaust denier, which I am not. What I offered was two psycological "explanations"
of what motivates people to deny the holocaust.

"BTW - have you ever heard a Jewish person complain about Hitler and the past as Mark complains about the Communists"

No, But Jewish individuals (not in need of therapy) and organisations (not least the Isreali state) continually remind us of what happened. Given the disproportionate influence of Jews in the media, the holocast certainly gets more attention than other genocides - Communist ones included.

@ Sophist

I meant the two point explanations you gave made sense to me possible reasons for denial of historical stated facts.

The same people who deny the Holocaust are often the same people who will believe in the Bible as facts. Bizarre

Re:"Given the disproportionate influence of Jews in the media, the holocast certainly gets more attention than other genocides - Communist ones included."

IMHO this Holocaust does not necessarily gets the attention because of Jewish influence but because it is "debated " - So it's the debate that keeps the discussion alive

I have never heard anyone say nor have I seen articles written stating that the millions of lives lost through the Stalin era are less valuable than the lives lost through Hitler.

But the tragedy is agreed upon by history so there is nothing to debate.

I often wondered if the Holocaust denial is considered positive by the Jewish version of the right wing extremists because as long as the debate continues, the Holocaust will make the headlines.

I would like to "debate" the non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust as well, so they will be remembered as well.

@ga.
"The same people who deny the Holocaust are often the same people who will believe in the Bible as facts. Bizarre"
Strangely enough this, in my personal experience I have found to be true.
Millions of jews died at the hands of the nazis and commies. Pogroms were carried out intermittently in Russia.
I don't know the reason why people should want to deny the holocaust?
My opinion is, by so doing, they reveal themeselves as nazi sympathizers.
I don't feel a law is necessary to ban holocaust denial. Those that chose to argue that millions of jews didn't die in nazi death camps support the perpetrators of those crimes.
I hold right wing views and I want to see a strong,vibrant Hungary. I want an end to the endemic corruption, constitutional reform, a workable tax system, improved bureaucracy, and policing methods, an overhaul of the justice system, etc.
I had hoped Jobbik were going to be a breath of fresh air and give us a wider choice in the voting stakes. But now I have grave doubts.
Fidesz for the third time. O my Goodness...help!!!

Just tonight saw a report on German tv channel Phoenix about the problems the Jews had in communist east Germany in the 50s and 60s, when Russia wanted to make friends with the Arab countries.

While Stalin was alive after WW2 Jews were treated even worse ...

But of course Mark is sure about communist jewish zionazis ...

Olga,

"I have never heard anyone say nor have I seen articles written stating that the millions of lives lost through the Stalin era are less valuable than the lives lost through Hitler"

But how many Films have you seen on the topic? How many books have been written on the topic, How many hours of television? How prominent is it school and college syllabuses? At least in the west there is now a serious attempt to realise Stalin's evil, but what about Mao? Over his thirty years of rule, he ran a whole range of genocides: the campaign to suppress counterrevolutionaries, the great leap forward, the cultural revolution. the deaths run into the tens of millions. Surely Chinese lives are just as valuable as European? But they don't get nearly as much of our attention.

For me it's pretty straightforward, because I regard the distinction between opinion and incitement is an instance of the is-ought problem
Sophist at January 30, 2010 4:59 PM
---
I do understand what you are writing, even if I do not follow your thinking on that link, but that cab be me
I hope we can agree on the Council of Europe's evaluation on the Hungarian Laws on 'Hate Crimes ' (not 'Hate Laws') are a bit to soft to actually be used. I assume/hope that the aftermath of the trial against the 'Debrecen-Nazi' will be a clarification of these Laws.
-
To be a bit more realistic to what should be discussed, let us take the Polish Law:
In addition to Holocaust denial, the denial of communist crimes is punishable by law in Poland.
-
Act of 18 December 1998 on the Institute of National Remembrance - Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation (Dz.U. 1998 nr 155 poz. 1016) Article 55:
He who publicly and contrary to facts contradicts the crimes mentioned in Article 1, clause 1 shall be subject to a fine or a penalty of deprivation of liberty of up to three years. The judgment shall be made publicly known.
Article 1
This Act shall govern:
1. the registration, collection, access, management and use of the documents of the organs of state security created and collected between 22 July 1944 and 31 December 1989, and the documents of the organs of security of the Third Reich and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics concerning:
-
Cont:

Cont:
-
a) crimes perpetrated against persons of Polish nationality and Polish citizens of other ethnicity, nationalities in the period between 1 September 1939 and 31 December 1989:
- Nazi crimes,
- communist crimes,
- other crimes constituting crimes against peace, crimes against humanity or war crimes
.
b) other politically motivated repressive measures committed by functionaries of Polish prosecution bodies or the judiciary or persons acting upon their orders, and disclosed in the content of the rulings given pursuant to the Act of 23 February 1991 on the Acknowledgement as Null and Void Decisions Delivered on Persons Repressed for Activities for the Benefit of the Independent Polish State (Journal of Laws of 1993 No. 34, item 149, of 1995 No. 36, item 159, No. 28, item 143, and of 1998 No. 97, item 604),
.
2. the rules of procedure as regards the prosecution of crimes specified in point 1 letter
a),
.
3. the protection of the personal data of grieved parties, and
.
4. the conduct of activities as regards public education
--
So would this be an acceptable law (of course fixed for the Hungarian dates involved)
Or the question would be *which* dates should be in this Hungarian law?
Would the dates include the Horthy period with its open discrimination against the Jews or only when Hungary was occupied 'officially' by Nazi-Germany October 1944?
But then Mark and his partner cannot call http://dayofhonour.hu/ an 'Hungarian Patriotic' event any more and what will he do on 13/2

MSZP, the party of horrible Communist, mostly Jewish Communist murderers
Mark at January 30, 2010 5:15 PM
---
Have poor Mark lost it totally now?
MSZP was formed 1989/90, with some of the old communists. The ones who did not go on to MDF and KiszGazda, to later go to MIEP and Fidesz and probably Jobbik.
It would be nice if Mark could name any of these 'Jewish Communist murderers' that makes up such a big portion of the Hungarian electorate that have kept voting for the MSZP.

I am very well aware of the difference of between "Hate Laws" and "Freedom of Expression"
justasking at January 30, 2010 6:08 PM
---
The difference was between 'Freedom of Expression' and 'Freedom of thought'.
Try reading up on those definitions
For the discussions on 'Hate Laws' or 'Holocaust Denial Laws' I recommend my post on:
January 31, 2010 12:33 AM in this thread
There we have the Polish example, with both Nazi and Soviet crimes

the Hungarians living in Slovakia are in the same position that the Palestinians are in with Israel. THEY BOTH HAD THEIR LAND STOLEN FROM THEM! These 2 groups of people are essentially fighting to keep evidence of their very existance, alive on their own land. Can you at least try to appreciate that?
justasking at January 30, 2010 6:08 PM
---
No
Are you a Fucking Moron or are you just born that way?
I have been in both Slovakia and on the Westbank and on the Gaza Strip. I have spoken with the fishermen who cannot go more than 50 m out of the beach before they are shot at by the Israeli Marine.
I have spoken with the family of 15 who lived in a house which is smaller than my living room.
Their house was in the UN Refugee Camp with the nice name of 'Beach Camp'. It has been there since 1948, there is still no sewage or water. In middle of the 80s when I was there it was at least one house bulldozed to the ground on every block by the IDF then 'resistance fighters' had lived there. No one was allowed to build up the house again. If some one did, the bulldozers came back
-
This is what you compare to the Hungarian minority's situation in Slovakia?
Pitiful, shameful and how much Jobbik-'ideas' your mind works in. It is truly showing your own total detachment of the real world and what you read in kuruc disinformation on a daily basis.
-
The only reason I do not employ 'etnic Hungarians' from Slovakia, is that the have it better in Slovakia, than working in Hungary
-
Cont

cont
-
And WTF come over Trianon and Slovakia. Go for the EU as the 2nd best alternative, you can never ever turn back the clock, it just ticks forward.
And, I tell you the big secret, Hungarians have not lost the most in history, just compare to the Swedes:
- We were the Rus, who injected good DNA in the local women in what you now call Russia,
.
- We lost Northern Poland, all Baltic states, part of Russia (even if our bastard children made it big), Finland, and we gave away Norway for free
-
This is what happens in war and the Hungarian leaders chose to join on the Austrian side, so you fucked up big time.
Why should the world care more for the Hungarians than for the Swedes that Stalin moved forcefully from Dagö (Balticum) to what is today the Ukraine?
The old people still speak Swedish there, but 5-20 years later that culture will be totally dead.
The Hungarian culture in Slovakia, Romania and Serbia will not be dead, because they are/will all be inside the EU.
The Hungarian culture in Ukraine is though another issue, there your party has some ideas with Mr Put In that they do not want to share with us officially yet
-
Your pathetic comparison with Hungarians living in Slovakia and the Palestinians just shows how confused you are
But do not be afraid I will remind you

At least in the west there is now a serious attempt to realise Stalin's evil, but what about Mao?
Sophist at January 30, 2010 11:38 PM
---
First this concentration on Stalin will disappear in Europe rather soon, then Russia is not interested in that
Just go on a trip to Moscow and look at all the Communist symbols still being displayed at central locations
Listen to the Nationalist rhetoric, echoed from Put In and down:
- Soviet was good
- Stalin was good
- WWII was good
Discussions on Stalin's purges etc is not so interesting now, when Russia is going to be Strong Again
Stalin purges and big forceful movement of people did not happen to 'Real Russians', it was the Georgians, the Swedes, the Kazakh, the Ukrainians, etc
Any way if some 'Real Russian', and not a Jew of course, was sent to Siberia, well he is dead any way.
Let us concentrate on the Great Future
-
Same thing with China, forget Mao and make business.
-
There must be a reason why Jobbik pointed out just Russia and China as the big partners in the future for the Hungarian economy, so forget anything about moving any Soviet WWII monuments, in Jobbik-land they will just be bigger and more shining
And anyway Stalin killed a lot of Jews, so he cannot be that bad in the end, right Mark?

The best argument for not giving the Zionazi a free run is that they are the worst and most hypocritical deniers of Armenian Holocaust. Zionazi reasons for Armenian Holocaust denial are two-fold and both very disgusting. One is Israel’s security agreement with Turkey and the other, even more disgusting is that they are concerned that it would take some attention away from them as the ONLY victims of men’s inhumanity to man.
The irony and insanity is that these holocaust deniers are screaming for laws to punish holocaust deniers. It just has to be the right “holocaust”

The Psychological Satisfaction of Denials of the Holocaust or Other Genocides by Non-Extremists or Bigots, and Even by Known Scholars
.
Denials of known genocides are not only the work of bigots, such as antisemites and neo-nazis who deny the Holocaust or Turkish ideologues who deny the history of the Armenian Genocide, but are voiced by many people in all walks of life, and even by bona fide respectable academicians
It is important to understand the motivations and thinking and mind formulations through which such denials are constructed and promoted
The present paper focuses on a concept of 'innocent denial' where the denier really may not be consciously entirely aware of the facts and not necessarily aware of their personal interests in choosing to join with deniers of a known genocide. However, it is emphasized that one must be alert to deniers who pretend 'innocence'
Five "thinking defense mechanisms" or ways of constructing and justifying denials are analyzed in a comparative analysis of two examples of denials, by German professor Ernst Nolte who denies the Holocaust, and Jewish professor Bernard Lewis who denies the Armenian Genocide
Interpretations are also given of David Irving a denier who denies being a denier, and Noam Chomsky who stands adamantly for the free speech of deniers in their relationships to denials of the Holocaust, and two case histories of denial of the Armenian Genocide in Israel are presented
-
http://www.ideajournal.com/articles.php?id=27
-

@Viking:
Did I say "The present standard of living, hardship and discrimination that the Palestinians are presently experiencing, by the hands of the Israelis, is similar to that, of what the ethnic minority Hungarians are experiencing from the Slovakians?" Hmmmm? I didn't think so either.
I wrote " The Hungarians in Slovakia are in the same POSITION that the Palestinians are with Israel" And did I stop there? No, I continued on to make sure that I would be understood with my example. "THEY BOTH HAD THEIR LAND STOLEN FROM THEM" Did these two groups of people in question, have their land stolen, taken, scooped up from under them, or not?
Now, let's please keep in mind, that it was YOU who threw in the Slovakian Language Law and the Holocaust Denial Law and tried to compare the two.
" And WTF come over Trianon and Slovakia" Here, you lost me. I could not make out hide-nor-hair, of what you were trying to say. I think it must that "English as a second Language" issue on your part.
Now, let'e talk about this "big secret" that you feel the need to share with me. "Hungarians have not lost the most in History". Really? Who said they did? Not me. So here again, I don't quite understand the road you were trying to go down. I do however, talk about Hungary and Hungarian history on occasion on this site. Is that what you were trying to tie into?
I think your little "rant" would have had more of an impact if you would have actually read what I wrote. But since you didn't...

To the previous post:
I think I gave Mark the bone of the denial of the Armenian Genocide by Peres and some other Israeli politicians. StormFront and Kuruc, which Mark normally reads does not contain such complicated facts.
To lift the debate to a higher level I posted the link to an article by Dr. Israel W. Charny (born 1931) an Israeli psychologist and historian, world renowned genocide expert
He is the editor of two-volume Encyclopedia of Genocide, and Executive director of the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem
He is best known for his active stance against denial of the Armenian Genocide, and has written essays and given lectures on the subjects of genocide and genocide denial
He is most noted for his comparison of Armenian Genocide denial to Holocaust denial, citing that they both have similar techniques and psychological motivation
Next time you meet a Turkish Nationalist, ask him about the Armenian Holocaust
Then you check if the Hungarian Brother-Party is not Jobbik
Most likely he will deny the Armenian Holocaust and the Hungarian equivalent will be Jobbik for him

Viking,

thanks for the ideajournal link, seems I'm not alone in wanting to give a psychological explanation of Holocaust denial.

As for the Polish denial laws, I have an immediate problem with "and contrary to facts". Facts are tricky things, one of the primary functions of a court of law (in the UK, at least) is to determine the facts. This law presumes the facts.

I can appreciate Viking's point of view on how people get displaced after war and become part of a different nation. Iraq is cobbled together from different tribes etc. Iran has Persian and Arabic
ties.
The world economy is fucked up and this means 'watch out' - trouble ahead!
America selling billions of dollars worth of arms to Taiwan, Russia selling nearly two billion to Libya. Iran going for the jackpot with its nuclear program, and Israel ready to strike the Iran regime at any time.
Africa is in turmoil and we have the natural disasters to contend with as well - the earthquake in Haiti has claimed more than 200,000
victims.
We in Hungary have to get a grip on reality and start planning for our future. Continually raking over the past doesn't help.
It would be nice to see a carefully written plan by any future government delineating exactly how they intend to steer us fron the current road to economic ruin.

@ Hustings

Re: "I hold right wing views and I want to see a strong,vibrant Hungary. I want an end to the endemic corruption, constitutional reform, a workable tax system, improved bureaucracy, and policing methods, an overhaul of the justice system, etc." - then you became disenchanted with JOBBIK

When I first heard about JOBBIK, I was really impressed because I also thought it was the party that you summerized in the above paragraph. The party leader (Vona) was a well educated young personable man, Krisztina Morvai was known to be a Human Rights champion and I was impressed. Kind of like finding a shiny red apple. You know the rest about biting into it.

When I heard about the MG (deja vu Mussolini) and listen to the the trailer trash mouth of KM and the crap about Jews and Roma and reclaiming Trianon borders, I decided this was not the party that will bring Hungary the future you described. A platform of hate and distrust.

I truly hope that the voters in Hungary do not obsess about dead Communists, China, Israel targeting Hungary, Roma women poisoning babies, and whatever the f... the irrelevant "topic de jour" is, and concentrate on electing the best person and the best party (available) in the spring. It is sad that JOBBIK has the liabilities I mentioned because it could have been the fresh face with no baggage offering the hope that Hungary so badly needs.

@Olga
I cannot disagree with what you have outlined.
The trouble is Hungary and Hungarians need to get there skates on, or skis, with the amount of snow we have had recently.
The problem with Jobbik is that it has to somehow
moderate the "nazi" elements within its ranks and
come up with a workable modus operandi that can
achieve success through much-needed reforms.
I have nothing more to say on that front and let's see what happens come Spring.
I fear that progress is hindered in the general arena because of the lack of quality of competent
politicians. This is a great concern to me and I just wonder what the answer can be.
Farkas Lásló often talks about Hungarians traveling abroad to gain experience.
Perhaps would-be politicians should study the
political systems in other countries and perhaps
this would give them greater insight into improving the situation here?

"THEY BOTH HAD THEIR LAND STOLEN FROM THEM" Did these two groups of people in question, have their land stolen, taken, scooped up from under them, or not?
justasking at January 31, 2010 9:34 AM
---
Israel, as the exclusive Jewish State of Israel was created under an UN-mandate. In that sense any statement of 'theft' could be correct, as Serbs in Kosovo would be able to claim.
This is though only Israel proper according to 1947 borders, after that the expansions that have happened, like in the Westbank and the Gaza Strip has happened in open war and the current situation reflects the latest wars
Both the Gaza Strip and the Westbank was not seized from Palestine, but from Egypt and Jordan
Palestine, which did not exist before Israel, as an own state, never lost a war in that sense. It was always occupied by the British, the Ottomans, the ...
-
The 'ethnic Hungarians' in Slovakia did *not* have their land stolen from them and the live today better than many Hungarians do, with the Euro and much lower taxes etc
The discussed Language Law has obviously not created a big number of court cases yet, so it is questionable how these people are affected by it
-
If you want to check a similar question that has gone over centuries since the 13th century with several countries involved, please check this link:
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelia
.
And you will not hear any Swedes demanding the return of Karelia to Sweden and of course Finland to Sweden
Look forward

@ Hustings

Farkas Laszlo's ideas ought not be ignored.

If you looked to Canada, there are several parties running in the Federal election but basically only the Liberals and the Conservatives have a chance to win. I am a Liberal but I have no problems with our last Conservative win because neither party is a horror show like some of the parties appear to be in Hungary if what I read on this website is true.

On the other hand, Canadian politics is downright boring compared to your spring election. Now that I believe I am coming out of total confusion concerning your politics and graduating to egy kicsit ertem, I am really hoping for that better future that Hungary deserves.

BTW, I don't see a wonderful political and/or a prosperous climate anywhere in the Western World
so to me a "better future" for Hungary means an even playing field with those countries that enjoyed Democracy in Europe after WWII.

As you said, let's see what happens in the spring...

Viking: “The 'ethnic Hungarians' in Slovakia did *not* have their land stolen from them…”

It takes a bold-faced liar or a moron to make a statement like this. I vote for bold-faced liar and moron because it is very easy to refute this lie and most people know why.

Dear Hustings and Olga,

Travel may broaden a politician, then it may not. They may find out the latest in consumer and luxury goods, sure. When it comes to policy and administration, it all depends. If a politican is too dependent on corruption to stay in power or to be rich, then he is invested in the status quo, not in progressive change. Such a person will not become a better public servant after visiting a better administered country.

The utterly corrupt late Mobutu of Zaire was a good case in point. In the 1970's, he was reputed to have over 60 billion (!) stashed away in Switzerland, where he made frequent trips, both to his banks and for medical treatment. The country he came from was a shithole compared to Switzerland. (Mobutu didn't pay his police or army, they were told to rob and shake down people!) No matter how many times he visited that prosperous and well ordered country, none of it rubbed off on him when he went back.

Besides the leaders, there is the people. The people themselves have to have aspirations and expectations that the leaders can respond to. It's foolish not to want to learn from the experiences of others, and so I have advocated that our youth travel and become familiar with how different parts of this world are. To see countries both worse off and better off than Hungary and learn from that. That's how they can better understand what choices they have for the future.

it is very easy to refute this lie
Mark at January 31, 2010 6:43 PM
---
Which version do you use:
- Hungary existed as a free State and was therefore responsible for its actions, so then this was just a loss of war?
.
- Hungary was *not* an independent State, but occupied by the Habsburgs and therefore Hungary did not loose anything, because it did not have anything?
It already had lost it all to the Habsburgers
-
Do you have a 3rd alternative that I have not yet heard?

@ Farkas László. I appreciate your comments and realize that "corruption" is a deep, deep, problem everywhere, especially in Hungary.
I have expereinced many problems in Hungary over the past three years as far as business matters are concerned. It appears (a lot of the time anyway) things have not moved forward since the soviets disappeared twenty years ago. Small and medium-size businesses do not possess the know-how
in the are of marketing, advertising, self-promotion etc. Bureaucracy can also derail many good business deals.
It is my opinion that Hungary has had many opportunities during these last three years
and squandered them.
Many reasons for this but I believe bad government and corruption are the main two culprits.
Hungary has to start to take the incentive in improving matters for itself and not become to dependent on loans from IMF/EU in which, invariably, there are conditions to be met which intefere with domestic planning.
I repeat that the caliber of current politicians from whichever party are not of the standard that
can provide Hungary with a platform for success.

Hello again Hustings,

Experiece abroad might definitely offer perspective to young Hungarians reegarding business management, customer service/relations and marketing. Our weakness or inexperience in those areas, especially the latter, is a cultural legacy of our past and needs improvement.

One of the riske we run is that if our youth travel, they may decide to stay abroad. (Part of the problem being a lesser developed country.) I say it's a "numbers game" and a race against the clock.

How is Lieberman, the terrorist, racist, hate monger demanding hate speech law any different from Polanski, the child rapist becoming a child protection advocate?

@ Farkas László. Indeed to be sure "a race against the clock" to ensure we don't lose any more of our talented young people to other countries better able to offer them more pay and better prospects.
The next government must not only address the vital issues facing Hungary but start repairing the damage that has been done over the past twenty years or more.
Every Hungarian needs to understand that they must
contribute in a positive way to fighting corruption,and start asking questions about what the politicians and other government officials are doing to get us back on the right track to success.
The MSZP has just about burned every bridge available to it including the Margit Bridge.
Hungary has squandered great opportunities in recent years. This situation must not be allowed to continue.

@ Farkas Laszlo

On another thread, I mentioned you should be "cloned" - of course I was kidding but I actually regretted writing that even as a joke. It assumed that you were a minority in the way you think. On second thought, there are hopefully a huge Hungarian majority who think like you but they simply don't speak English and therefore I don't have the opportunity to read their thoughts.

It's no coincidence that the people I can relate to on this website are the ex-pats like Vandorlo, Viking. Sophist, Wolfi and a few others. All brought up in the Western world as opposed to Hungary. If they wrote about American or Canadian politics and policies I would most likely agree
with their thoughts as well.

Anyway, this is a question not a comment: Hungary had Democracy for approx. 20 years which is less than a blink of an eye in terms of history.

What is wrong with not inventing the wheel and borrowing business and political ideas from other parts of the world that "work"?

I don't know the answer to this, but are any of the former Communist countries more prosperous than Hungary? Do any of those countries have less problems with corrupt governments? Are any of them in better shape financially and owing less money? What about foreign investments? Are they resentful of that or do they encourage it?

Is political corruption rampant in these other countries?

Personally, the fact that Developing countries'
politicians are even more crooked than Hungary's cont...

cont...

seem relevant. I know that children in India
live in worst poverty than children in our native communities but that does not excuse Canada.

So I would compare Hungary to the other former Eastern Bloc countries as opposed to some far away land.

If what I am reading on this website is true, then the only option the Hungarian electorate has if voting for the least offensive party.

I hope I got it wrong about my last sentence.

Correction

I meant: "Personally, the fact that Developing countries' politicians are even more crooked than Hungary's seems irrelevant"

Hello Hustings!

Nice to dialogue with you. The sad reality of "people loss" leaves open a number of issues that need further consideration.

"Gone" doesn't mean a person should be a write off! Ex-pat Hungarians join those who have gone before. Hungarians abroad and their descendents run into the millions and are scattered throughout many nations in Europe and North and South America. This raises some important questions and possibilities:

1)How do we turn these facts into a resource?

2)How do we gain commercial advantages from Hungarians in so many countries?

3)How do we cultivate an interest in Hungary for the millions of Hungarian descent abroad, many of whom are interested in their heritage?

4)How should the above questions and considerations affect:

a)the tourist industry and it's marketing
b)govt finance in the form of bond and securities sales to foreign Hungarians.
c)The raising of capital for business
d)marketing and sales of Hungarian goods and services to the above groups.
e)the raising of money by social agencies, cultural orgs. and non profit organizations
f)donations and endowments to Hungarian universities

5)What long term plan should be implemented to try and win back people, like working adults as well as retirees from foreign lands?

These are serious strategic issues that entail much economic potential. There is lot to gain and little to lose, except more people.

You have it exactly correct in your last sentence Olga as far as I am concerned.
Russia is still rife with corruption as is the Ukraine, Estonia, and Rumania and Bulgaria. The last two I can vouchsafe from personaé experience.
Rumania and Bulgaria did make huge efforts to try and rid the old corrupt practices handed down from the former soviet regime with some success.
Unfortunately, in more recent times, the bad ways
have seemed to have crept back in and there is a lot of discontentment among the people in Bulgaria and Rumania.
I have always maintained Hungary is only one good,
honest government, away from achieving success.
Vándorló knows a great deal about the things you
have asked - but wheteher he has the time, or the will to comment, is another matter?
I feel sure if the debate is opened up we will all benefit. The to-and-fro contradictory posts do get irksome and predictable. I have always found FLs posts to be interesting and, for the most part, accurate. Unbiased too! Which is a rarity.

Are any of them in better shape financially and owing less money?
olga at February 1, 2010 4:12 PM
---
The two countries in Europe that was hit the hardest with the financial meltdown over a year ago, was Latvia and Hungary
Both had basically the same problem - a too big bank bubble that burst
In Latvia it was mainly Swedish banks that had supplied 'cheap loans' that became extremely expensive when the local currency went through the floor
Latvia has a problem with the IMF, then the emergency loans Latvia had to accept or go bankrupt stipulated the introduction of a real estate tax, similar to the Hungarian
As in Hungary the new real estate tax did not realise yet, so they will need to find the money some other way, like Hungary
It is my understanding that Hungary is in a better position at the moment than Latvia, but Latvia 2 years ago was the wonder-child of the new EU member states, with the highest % of all the right indicators
Latvia's fall from grace become a bit harder, than Hungary's that was anyway struggling on slow speed ahead
All European countries have been hit hard with the recession and now Germany seem to be in for a bit hard ride, then they have run out of the money the used to cushion the effect of the crisis
Conclusion is that there will be harder to get money from the West in the nearest future, better fix the shop by ourselves instead
-
For corruption I have no real opinion, more than I have seen it in Czech Republic and it was harder than Hungary maybe?

Dear Olga,

Because we have missed out on so much in the past, there is a process of trial end error going on that takes up decades and which will likely take up decades more. This pertains to how an economy and democratic system of government should be ordered.

A combination of history, culture and national temperament determine how well (or badly) the individual ex-communist nations fare in the post 1989 world. Also factors are what immediately saleable raw materials and exports a nation has to offset it's adjustment difficulties. Hungary not being large or rich in raw materials, is thrown back upon the resourcefulness of it's people. Slovenia is doing markedly better than Hungary, and I attribute that to their unique culture, location and history.

Whatever has gone on in the past to contribute to present probems, it's the responsibility of each of these nations to pick themselves up off the floor and figure out a way to go forward.

Honestly, I'm not sure the period of "wandering in the wilderness" to use a metaphor, is about to end, but I hope we make significant progress soon about some vital issues. There are degrees of cluelessness, and I don't want to see it get worse or for the stagnation to go on indefinitely. The optimist in me hopes that we are actually learning something from the mistakes and missed opportunities of the last 20 years.

PS: voting for the last objectionable party seems to be the common bane of all democracies!

Hello Viking,

Re: relative corruption in Hungary vs. other nations, take a look at a past thread on politics.hu on the subject, where the header article referenced "Transparency International". I went to their website and broke down the results for all to see at:

http://www.politics.hu/20091118/hungary-scores-poorly-on-new-international-corruption-ranking#c2

Out of a 180 nation sample, Hungary scored 46th on TI's corruption index. (Czechs came in 52nd place) When I broke down the results for ex-communist countries, we came in third place, with Slovenia on top, Estonia second, Hungary 3rd. Although we sometimes give in to exasperation based on our own experiences, the TI results are somewhat encouraging. When it comes to crookedness, we apprently don't even come close to taking the prize! (How sweet is that?)

By all means feel free to check the TI website if you are curious about how the results were obtained. It is dense with statistics, numbers crunching and polling methodology.

Farkas László/Viking/Olga
Hungary is riddled with corruption from top to bottom. People accept it as the “norm”.
The Orange Revolution in the Ukraine changed nothing. Corruption abounds there and it is also accepted as normal.
Because corruption exists at different levels in other ex- eastern bloc countries doesn’t mean we should give up on our fight to combat it.
Scandals are highlighted on a daily basis here, in the papers, on the news etc.
See below:
“Budapest court announced on Friday that former director of the capital's transport company (BKV) Attila Antal has been put under house arrest.
“Criminal proceedings are under way against Antal who was taken into custody on Tuesday on fraud and other charges, the court said on its website.” (realdeal.hu)
“The former human resources director of BKV, Eleonora Szilagyi, was arrested in early January for alleged embezzlement after she had received 86 million forints (EUR 320,000) in severance” (realdeal.hu)

And, lest we forget: remember not so long ago Hungary’s ex- PM, Gyurscany Ferenc, and his contemptible remarks about conning the public about the state of the economy etc?

Dear Sentinel,

Thanks! I heard about those stories. In spite of what we see and know, TI still ranks us in the 74% percentile among a 180 nations!? That says every bit as much about the world at large as it does Hungary! An important thing for Hungarians to keep in perspective is that other nations have overcome greater problems in the past, while many others are even more afflicted. I therefore would like to think that many of our difficulties are solvable or at least can be reduced!

The Nógrád-Gömör chapters of the HVIM organized a
memorial tour, commemorating to the heroes of
Balassagyarmat. In 1919, after Trianon peace treaty,
when Hungary lost more than half of its historical
territories, the Czechoslovakian army invaded the
small town of Balassagyarmat, in the north wanting
to carve out the city from the territory of Hungary
and attach it to the new entity of Czechoslovakia.
Hungary was practically, defenceless at that time,
without army and functioning self defence forces.

Railway workers, ordinary citizens and remnants of
the disbanded army just returned from the front
line, joined forces and organized themselves into a
ragtag group of armed militia; the group
successfully attacked and driven out the
Czechoslovakian army units from the city of
Balassagyarmat and from the surrounding areas. As a
result of their heroic endeavour, Balassagyarmat
remained part of Hungary.
To commemorate to the heroes of Balassagyarmat, 64
members of the HVIM set out from Magyarnándor to
Balassagyarmat. Among the participants, there were
members of the HVIM from the occupied territories of
Felvidék and Délvidék, as well.

Just when I thought there were a few more reasonable voices aboard this site (Thanks Hustings and Sentibel!) and started to read here again - more hate propaganda - TRIANON straight from the shithole of Hungarianambience, quoted in full length by this idioz of all idiot lawless.

Does this creature really think people here as stupid as him and can't follow a link - or has he realised that no sane person will ever follow a link to Hunshittance ?

Still he keeps posting this Trianon crap, which immediately turns everyone off ..

Farkas Laszlo/Viking/QC/Sentinel

Today is my lucky day – Actually read 4 really interesting responses that directly relate to today’s Hungary. Wonders never cease.

None of you mentioned Poland, Slovakia, and the economy of the Czech republic (Viking mentioned crooked politicians)

Slovakia’s politicians are grossly unfair to Hungarians but that does not mean they also abscond with taxpayers’ moneys. Do they? How about Poland ?

Do the countries mentioned above encourage or discourage foreign investment ?

About all democracies voting for the least offensive party – despite the fact that I vote for the Federal Liberals, the only truly odious party for me is the PQ because it wants to break up Canada. I can’t think of a political party in Canada that is corrupt to the extent that political parties are alleged to be corrupt in Hungary.

@ Sentinel. Please note, I am not arguing with you because I am sure you know the situation much better than I do. I just want to play the Devil’s Advocate -let me know if what I write has any merit.

Is it possible that the politicians you mentioned are charged and arrested with various crimes not because the corruption is on the increase but rather that Hungary is taking a stand now as opposed to closing its eyes like previously?

About Gyurcsany – the Canadian papers are not exactly full of Hungarian political news. The Gyurcsany story made headlines not only here but all over the world (cont...)

cont...

I think the international media picked up on the story because they felt it applied to their own countries; politicians mislead and lie but the others did not have the laughable misfortune to have the “true confession” leaked – So political lies and promises are a dime a dozen. In fact, what Gyurcsany said was most likely the most honest political statement the media ever heard of. (Different from embezzling. That’s another issue completely)

What do you or anyone else think?

PS - Sorry for taking up 2 postings, I try not to do that as a rule

Hi Olga. Gyurscany Ferenc is gone. And for good we hope. Many Hungarians can't bear to hear is name and, it is best not to bring the subject up. That is, if you live in Hungary.
Hungary, in my opinion, is a good country and ripe for investment.
It is at the heart of Europe and has many talented people and great traditions.
I have learned a lot from FL and I hope he will remain optimistic and continue to entertain
and educate us.

Hi Sentinel

Thanks for your response - I am glad you told me that Gyucsany's name is not to be uttered in Hungary - promise to "abide by the rules" in the future.

Hungary is a great country!

I too have learned a lot from FL and many others
whose opinions I respect.

I actually think that a lot (maybe most?) corruption in Hungary is opportunism and relatively localised.That is not to say that organised corruption doesn't exist, but that is also true of every nation.Just a few for example: Australia-Gordon Nuttall, Britain-MP expense rorts, US-'selling' Obama's senate seat, and so on and so forth.I see the sense in what Olga says that at least when there are high profile arrests, it shows that the system is working to some, even if a limited degree, which is better than not at all.My biggest gripe with Hungary in this regard is the inefficiency and general attitude of making everything harder than it needs to be.'The chief aims of bureacracy is to keep itself in a job'.

FL: earlier in this thread you were talking about the 'brain drain' from Hungary and it had me thinking about the risk that some might stay abroad.One of the things that bothers me is how often I see Hungarians who leave characterised as 'traitors' or at least disloyal and subsequently cut off or otherwise attacked.This is in marked contrast to the attitude I see in Australia where we celebrate the sense of adventure and of looking forward to seeing our loved-ones return.You have also astutely pointed out that for people to return to Hungary, they must have something to return for...in that discussion you were speaking about economics, but I also think that the FEELING of being welcomed back also plays a huge part in the psychology of staying abroad or returning (compare with soldiers returning from Vietnam to jeers and accusations at home)All is not lost for Hungary though, because I think in most people, there is a longing to return to your origins that never completely goes away.I know this to be true because of my wife's experience who although having had an awful experience in Hungary and who desperately wanted to leave, after being abroad for a year and four months, has started to recall the nice things that she did enjoy.Sometimes, time away can heal old wounds, yet again supporting the view that it would do Hungary and Hungarians well to travel and become more involved in the big wide world.

Dear Cinead,

What you are talking about is a sign of cultural backwardness. There are nations much poorer and less developed than Hungary, where yet you don't see the resentment against those who have left. The fact that people leave for better opportunities elsewhere is an unwelcome reminder that all is not well at home, and that other nations have made more economic progress; thus it is a blow to a fierce national pride in many.

I also think the sense that the country isn't making much progress feeds into many forms of resentment.

@Bobs, Mark: "Israeli cabinet ministers informing us… bagoly mondja a verébnek, etc." Úgybizony! Avigdor, like BTW at least half of the Knesset, is a gangster, literally, a common law criminal -- which is apparently a normal career path for a Zionist. He's a former bouncer from Soviet Moldova, 'Russian' maffia dude, ex Kach member (Meir Kahane's extreme Nazi perverts hysterically howling for the Endlösung der Arabfrage) indicted in Israel for "bribery, fraud, money laundering, witness harassment and obstruction of justice…" among other numerous charges http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1104522.html And this piece of human trash preaches at us about hate… Döbbenet. "Avigdor Lieberman… nazi…" Zionist are and have always been Nazis. Menachem Begin spent _years in the Third Empire collaborating with the government on the 'final solution' which was of course the forced emigration of the Ashkenazim, wherever. Palestine btw was just one of the destinations they had in mind for their grotesque Potemkin /Esperanto state. Madagascar was in fact the practical first choice as long as the Germans were ahead. ( Which is Katzenberg and Spielberg's inside joke in http://➡.ws/朣쯎 ) Zionists had in fact welcomed the much needed apartheid laws just like they welcome and incite 'Antisemitism' today.

@justasking: "Iran, where there is obvious and in your face anti-Semitism?" There is, believe it or not, no 'anti-Semitism' in Iran whatsoever. But then Persian Jews are not Ashkenazim either, are they? They are very loyal to Iran too. Which is why Mūsā Qasāb or Moshe Katsav was so brutally discredited and set aside. Pending an attack on Iran the Ashkenazi elite just couldn't trust a Parsi.

@Soph: "the expression of that hatred in the holocaust." Misleading! It's just like saying Dózsa's revolt or any other peasant revolt was an expression of hatred for the nobility. Well, it was but that isn't the whole truth, is it? Not to mention the mountain of BS the Master Race lay on us about the so called 'Shoa' without proving their fantastic fairy tales beyond putting us and our historians in prison for a few decades if we dare to not believe that crap. "Jews are the hidden persecutors," Did you say 'hidden?' "therapy is a more appropriate response than punishment." Preferably in a specialized http://➡.ws/킬坣 state asylum?

@Viking: "Today we do have Racist Serial Killers (The Debrecen-Nazi)" You're lying. "Part of the 'Debrecen-Nazi' were even convicted for a break-in and vandalising the synagogue in Debrecen middle of the 90s" And lying and ad nauseam LYING! You even keep lying after we show you up for your lies! What an asshole you are, no dignity whatsoever… "only Hungary have Racist Serial Killers " This is clearly hate speech, Lapp... Now, what do you think we should do with you? As for the Gypsy Snuffing Nazis ballyhoo I wish we had politicians like John Brumby
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/international/article99931.ece who stands up to such nasty sewage instead of the cattle and whores that we're stuck with. I almost regret I bad mouthed the Aussies. (No offense, Cini.) "Charny" What does he write about the West Bank including Gaza? "Next time you meet a Turkish Nationalist, ask him about the Armenian Holocaust" Why? What would it accomplish? Can you even name a 'Turkish Nationalist?" "Then you check if the Hungarian Brother-Party is not Jobbik Most likely he will deny the Armenian Holocaust and the Hungarian equivalent will be Jobbik for him" Viking at January 31, 2010 9:40 AM Dead drunk at 9:40 AM… How sad.

@ Pava;

At present, I'm reading a book titled "Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel" by Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinsky. Which, you guessed it, is a political book on Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel.

Because of this book, I understood when you referred to "Ashkenazi Jews" vs "Persian Jews". This book goes about explaining "modern Israel", to people like me, who really, do not know much about it, along with it's internal dynamics, etc.

I have to admit though, what I have read so far in these pages, shockingly unexpected. I would even go so far as to say disturbing.

Glad your back, just wish you'd post more often.

@ Wolfie;

And since I know how that little pee brain of yours works, no, it did not come from Mark's personal library. In fact, I purchased it from Amazon.com. Go figure.

@Pávaszem
What do you know about this article? This is just one paragraph:

“A nyugati pénzügyi tőke megtiltotta Antall Józsefnek, hogy az államadósságot a saját elképzelése szerint kezelje - állítja Bogár László. A közgazdász szerint hazánk - már a rendszerváltást megelőzően - egy globális és végtelenített adósságszivattyúnak, egy kifosztó szivattyúnak lett az áldozata.”

Hungary never had a chance. It came as a shock for me but it explains why Jobbik must go back to 1989 and review all the shenanigans that occurred since. It ma take some time but these things have to be corrected.

Hi Z
Shocking and disturbing on the evaluation of
"Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel"
Very few outside of Israel have been properly
informed about the extent of the fundamentalist
movement or the theology upon which it is based.
American Jews, in particular, seem unaware of the
extent in which their propaganda is promoted by
leading rabbis. The hypocrisy of these satanic
worshippers who are in key political and corporate
positions around the world, who hide the truth
from the mainstream. Spread the news! We are
awakening and have to use tactful ways in which to
expose the truth about their agenda.
Keep up the great effort in exposing the lies in
which they have been drumming into everyone,
especially Olga appears to be the one under their
spell whilst Viking, Vandorloo, Wolfi and the rest
of their entourage are all part of the shocking
agenda. with love "Szebb jövőt!

@lawless:

"satanic
worshippers "

Yes, I'm very interested in that! Please tell me more ...

And lying and ad nauseam LYING! You even keep lying after we show you up for your lies! What an asshole you are, no dignity whatsoever… "only Hungary have Racist Serial Killers " This is clearly hate speech, Lapp... Now, what do you think we should do with you?
Pávaszem at February 5, 2010 9:49 AM
---
You could start with showing your 'evidence' about the 'Debrecen-Nazi', so far I have seen nothing that goes against what I have claimed from the day after they were arrested
I even have provided a report in English from middle of the 90s where one of the brothers are mentioned for the break-in and vandalism of the Synagogue in Debrecen.
What do you have to show, except some deranged ramblings?
In whose ass-hole do you get *your* dignity?

@Law;

I stumbled across this book, while I was researching another, from the same author(s). I do not see this political book as a " Lets bash the Jews and Israel" at all, in fact both authors are (were) devout Jews themselves. I believe, one of the authors is still alive.

I decided to look more into this topic, just from comments made on this site, believe it or not. I wanted to appease my own curiosity, nothing more nothing less.

I tend to lean towards books for research, as opposed to strictly relying on the inter-net. In my opinion, some sites, that intellectually, have yet to emerge from the primordial ooze, can do more damage than good.

Anyway, hope things have started to settle down for you and all is going well. Take care and keep in touch.

Z

I do not see this political book as a " Lets bash the Jews and Israel" at all, in fact both authors are (were) devout Jews themselves. I believe, one of the authors is still alive
justasking at February 6, 2010 9:16 PM
---
I hope at least it is a "Lets bash Israel"
-
If you are so interested in Judaism and also in Hungary maybe you should study:
Satmar (or Satmar Hasidism or Satmarer Hasidism) (חסידות סאטמאר) is a Hasidic movement comprised mostly of Hungarian and Romanian Hasidic Jewish Holocaust survivors and their descendants
It was founded and led by the late Hungarian-born Grand Rebbe Yoel Teitelbaum (1887-1979), who was the rabbi of Szatmárnémeti, Hungary (currently Satu Mare, Romania)
The name of the town is Satmar in German, which was also used by the Yiddish-speaking population, then the common language of the local Jews
Members of the movement are usually referred to as Satmar Hasidim or Satmarer Hasidim
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satmar_(Hasidic_dynasty)
-
Real Original Hungarian Jews opposing Zionism
Not what you expect listening to your friends Law and Mark, right?

@ Viking;

"Real original Hungarian Jews, opposing Zionism"
" Not what you expect, listening to your friends Law and Mark right?"

Actually, I don't think my friends Mark and Law are Jewish. Their just Real original Hungarians opposing Zionism.
--------------------------------------------------
As for the interest in Judaism, yes and no. Although, basic understanding of this religion, the "highlights" if you will, are covered in this book.
Right now, I am more interested in how Jewish Fundamentalists are viewed by their fellow Jews.

That does not mean that I will not eventually look into the book that you recommended, just not right now. I do thank you for that though.

@justasking: "Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel" Thanks, I put it on my reading list. Another must read on this incredible rogue, pseudo 'nation'/organized crime stronghold is Victor Ostrovsky's By Way of Deception: "While at first rejecting an offer to be trained as a recruit for the assassin's squad, Ostrovsky eventually accepts an offer to become a katsa and joins a class of Mossad candidates going through tradecraft training…" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/By_Way_of_Deception The worst imaginable crimes are committed by a legitimate government since the Stalinist horrors (and guess who committed or executed those?) against not just Palestinians or Arabs but against all of us as it has so chillingly been shown up by the Lindh, Haider and other assassinations. What makes Ostrovsky's book scarier than 'Fundamentalism' is the fact that his subject is not some spaced out cult but a super or supra power that taxes both the US and the EU to the tune of at least a dozen billion Euros every year which is more per 'Jewish' Israeli citizen than the average income in most of the taxed or member states. the money they extract from our governments finances a terror apparatus universally feared like no criminal organization or rogue government or has been feared since the Indian thugs or thuggee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee

@Mark: "What do you know about this article?" Not much. And I couldn't find the original video on Echo TV. I've found a synopsis of the program http://➡.ws/耽 (hit 'translate to English' if you don't know Hungarian) though on soc.culture.magyar which is fascinating to say the least. Bogár was of course the Secretary of State of the first non-Soviet Antall government. He debated Bencze Izabella, a former Vice President of the Treasury on the TV program, who claimed that we could have easily repaid our national debt if we don't privatize the way we have and if we wouldn't have had the rampant corruption. Bogár claimed that we were forced to privatize and increase our debt. I found this little passage: "Soros György és Andrew Sarlos azt javasolta Antall Józsefnek, megvásárolják Magyarország adósságállományát, amely akkor huszonkétmilliárd dollárra rúgott. Ennek fejében a nemzeti vagyon legértékesebb darabjait kellett volna átadni az üzletembereknek. "Antall akkor azt válaszolta - nem szokott ilyen kifejezéseket mondani -, hogy ez kommunikálhatatlan, ezzel ő nem tud kiállni a magyar társadalom színe elé. Nem tudja elmondani, hogy a Nyugat, amelytől a felszabadításunkat vártuk, azzal kezdi a felszabadításunkat, hogy az adósságunk fejében elveszi a nemzeti vagyonunkat." particularly fascinating. Don't you?

@Viking: "What do you have to show" No, what do you have to show? I say _you killed them Gyps or can you prove that you haven't? "provided a report… where one of the brothers are mentioned" I think you did it. ( And now you're mentioned too... ;) "In whose ass-hole do you get *your* dignity?" OK, so you don't know what dignity is. What else is new… Now, I'm not going to tell you what it is because you're lazy enough as it is boozing your mind away in that seedy saloon of yours all day but I am going to give you a little hint. I'll tell you what it is not, OK? DIGNITY is not the sick shit you do with your reindeer and bouncers Understand? Dipshit.

@Pava;

Looked into the book you recommended and noticed that he (Victor) has another book out titled "Other side of Deception". Another book that was suggested to me " Every Prince is a Spy" by Dan Raviv. Same topic as Victor's.

Have you ever heard of " The Bilderberg Group" by Daniel Estulin?

@ Viking;

Knowing your position on Israel, you too might find these books interesting, I think. Have you ever heard of the " The Bilderberg Group"?