The Prime Minister nominee of the conservative opposition Democratic Forum (MDF) party will deliver his “state of the nation” speech and present the party’s election programme on Sunday, deputy party leader Karoly Herenyi said on Wednesday.
The speech by Lajos Bokros will be different from the usual political assessment, said Herenyi. Instead of simply assessing the events of 2009, Bokros will talk about issues that need to be addressed in order for Hungary to recover from the crisis, he added.
Bokros has invited the leaders of the radical nationalist Jobbik and the main opposition Fidesz for a public debate about the parties’ programmes but they have both rejected this.
Orban will deliver his state of the nation speech on Friday. Orban has launched a profile of Facebook with the aim of collecting suggestions and ideas on what topics he should discuss in his speech.
Bokros has invited the leaders of the radical nationalist Jobbik and the main opposition Fidesz for a public debate about the parties’ programmes but they have both rejected this
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Well both Orban and Vona seems to have some contact with reality still – they know Bokros would sweep the floor with them, so better run and hide
I think their reasons for not wanting to engage in public debate with Bokros, to be ironically, a lot closer to most people’s disinterest in engaging in debate with you. And it’s got precious little to do with either running or hiding.
You see, you can’t reason with a lunatic, at best you can humour him.
And what purpose would be served by Vona or Fidesz humouring the MDF/SZDSZ? None. Just giving them/you the oxygen of publicity they/you crave. It is for this reason that most people now totally ignore your lengthy assinine posts; in the same way that everyone is paying no attention to Bokros’ quixotic behaviour. And the fact that the pair of you console yourselves by thinking that this is because they “just can’t handle” you, is a tribute to the immensity of your respective misguided egos.
Bokros doesn’t need a debate with Vona or Orbán to succeed, in the same way that he doesn’t need its absence to fail. His party has already accomplished its demise in its electoral alignment with the SZDSZ. The 2009 Euro election result could not have been clearer in its communication of the Hungarian electorate’s desire to be rid of the SZDSZ once and for all.
And in throwing the SZDSZ a lifeline, Bokros and the MDF will incur the voters’ wrath for so clearly flying in the face of their unambiguous wishes.
In the hopes of garnering the support of SZDSZ voters in Budapest, they will succeed in nothing more than alienating their own voters nationwide.
@Bobs..: “You see, you can’t reason with a lunatic, at best you can humour him.” So Bokros is the ‘Lunatic’ in this world and Vona the ‘genius’ (as you called him at least once).
Planet surfing isn’t my thing, so back on earth I’m wondering what you are inhaling.
Tell me, which part of Bokros’s statements would class him as a lunatic? I can find plenty for Vona, including trying to work with Krisztina. Anyway, so as we don’t get distracted in a slagging match let’s just pick on Bokros’s ideas/plans.
You have a head start, just look at the joint author of the Bokros’ Package, Surányi György’s statements on the way the economy and crisis has been handled http://nol.hu/archivum/teves_diagnozis__teves_terapia
p.s. Vona is chicken shit for not wanting to talk with anyone as is Orbán – and being unable to defend any of his pathetic plans in coherent discourse. You know it as well as I. Empty rhetoric is his one and only debating skill.
Just giving them/you the oxygen of publicity they/you crave
bobscountrybunker at February 4, 2010 1:14 PM
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Well, you can only boost my ego by comparing me with Bokros
On the other hand when was the last time you discussed the content of a debate/argument, than just its form?
I can understand that you, who would like to offer Jobbik as an intellectual party with a well-thought program and stay away from your ‘partners in crime’ Law and Mark, do not want to discuss the real content of Jobbik policies, loaded as it is with “Zsideszre” and close cooperation with kuruc, like in:
-
http://www.egerjobbik.hu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10855:bemutatjuk-a-salgotarjani-gyilkos-ciganyt-fekete-laszlo-a-fidesz-lungo-dromjanak-jeloeltje-volt&catid=40:kekhirek&Itemid=62
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It is hard to keep those countryside folks in order, is it not?
But it is there where Jobbik has its biggest support-base, so it is there we find the ‘Real Jobbik’
@Vándorló
It would prove much more interesting, worthwhile, in fact it might even end up as a pleasure, debating with you. Were it not for the fact that you deliberately and constantly misrepresent, to serve your own ends – which never really amount to anything more than petty pieces of point scoring – and which vanish as soon as any scrutiny is paid to them.
You know – full well – that when I was talking about a lunatic, it was our Swedish fruitcake that I was describing. So why did you pretend that I meant Bokros?
I have spoken of Vona’s genius, not Vona as a genius. Again a distinction someone whose first language is English would be able to discern only too well. As yours is, and as you did. So why again the deliberate dishonesty? Why the need to say I meant something when you know – only too well – I meant another?
You cannot expect respectful engagement if this is how you persist in behaving.
How I described Bokros was quixotic, and I’m quite proud of this description: because it is an accurate one. There is much, much more at stake here. Vona is correct, 2010 is in effect, a referendum on the last 20 years.
The romantic quixotic misguidedness of Bokros, is the obsession with the, primarily economic, plan. The plan is wrong. The plan needs improving. The plan must be overhauled. And I take no issue with him on this point.
But this point, misses the point. Because it is not the “forgatókönyv” of Hungarian government that has been the chief problem, but the “szereplők”! A secure, condescending, self-satisfied, smug, spoilt, self-serving, corrupt, criminal, nationally disinterested, and amoral political elite. Whose origins lie in Hungary taking the wrong course (and being deliberately steered into it) in 1989. And in this refusal to “grasp the nettle” as the English say, the MDF bear the chief responsibility.
IHMTS [Hungary] Regime change? …not really.
Finally, if what Vona has managed to do for Jobbik, taking it from where it was in 2006 to where it is now: a potential party of opposition; while under the unceasingly negative and critical portrayal both by the national media and political establishment, and through the former’s conscientiousness, the international media and political establishment too – for the whole of the intervening 4 years; if that doesn’t count as political genius? I really don’t know what does…
if what Vona has managed to do for Jobbik, taking it from where it was in 2006 to where it is now
…
if that doesn’t count as political genius? I really don’t know what does
bobscountrybunker at February 4, 2010 3:02 PM
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The world is obviously filled by ‘geniuses’, like
- Jörg Haider, Austria
- Mogens Glistrup, Denmark
I think you know more than me
All of these have led right-wing fringe parties from nowhere to total fame for a few years, after to disappear in infighting and split
In common for all these, and I include Vona here, is something new populist for that country
Vona had his Magyar Garda, it filled a need for many Hungarian, especially on the countryside
All these people are/were smart to use these populist methods and had instant success, then they did not need to follow the normal dull political way of working
Smash bang, instant action
Real genius
For a few years
-
The other topic ‘No real system change took place’
So, what is the cure for that?
Not allow anyone over 40 years to participate in political work?
We all know that politicians inside all parties, not only MSZP were active before 1990, should they all be ‘disbarred’?
Where should the line be drawn?
That you today is not working for MSZP?
Or SZDSZ?
Or MDF?
Or LMP?
Or Centrum?
Or ?
As I said:
“You see, you can’t reason with a lunatic, at best you can humour him… …It is for this reason that most people now totally ignore your lengthy assinine posts.”
Why you insist on making my point for me, I really have no idea, but it is very kind of you.
I mean really, for what seems like the 100,000th time: what the fuck are you talking about? This is your idea of a cogent argument, is it?:
“The world is obviously filled by ‘geniuses’, like
- Jörg Haider, Austria
- Mogens Glistrup, Denmark
I think you know more than me
All of these have led right-wing fringe parties from nowhere to total fame for a few years, after to disappear in infighting and split”
But the point is, you moronic imbecile, that neither Haider (FPÖ), nor Glistrup (Progress Party), nor Vanhecke (Vlaams Belang) nor Griffin (BNP), nor Le Pen (Front Nationale) ever stood a chance of becoming the party of official opposition. The 2nd largest power in their respectve parliaments. Jobbik does. This is Vona’s accomplishment.
And as for “to disappear in infighting and split”? Again, wtf are you talking about numbnuts? The FPÖ, Vlaams, the FN and the BNP are all ticking away with no prospect of disappearing any time soon. LePen and Griffin have been secure for decades. Haider, erm, died. So no chance of him still being leader. And the support of the Progress Party just switched to the DPP which is going from strength to strength…
Lincoln once said that it is, “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.“
This is clearly a sentiment with which you are completely unfamiliar.
Why would anyone debate a candidate of a makeshift coalition of MDF/SZDSZ?
MDF just paid off a 10+ million forint judgment from money they did not have. It seems that their new partner, the Communist SZDSZ has plenty of money and they are willing to pay for the privilege of running under a discredited but less discredited MDF banner.
Hungarians know all they need to know about the joys of “Bokros csomag” he hoisted on them under another Communist regime and they can make up their mind about his promises without listening to his garage.
But the point is, you moronic imbecile, that neither Haider (FPÖ), nor Glistrup (Progress Party), nor Vanhecke (Vlaams Belang) nor Griffin (BNP), nor Le Pen (Front Nationale) ever stood a chance of becoming the party of official opposition. The 2nd largest power in their respectve parliaments. Jobbik does. This is Vona’s accomplishment
bobscountrybunker at February 4, 2010 4:35 PM
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1st) Should we not wait for the morning of April 12 before we call it a victory?
.
2nd) “becoming the party of official opposition”?
So, now Jobbik Game plan is to be in opposition to Fidesz (or is it Zsidesz?)?
Why then this support for Fidesz/Zsidesz all the time then before the election?
Why not call them Zsidesz if that is what you think?
.
3rd) Haider’s party came into the Government in Austria, is that not bigger?
Is not a political party’s responsibility to influence and where can you do that more than in the Government?
.
4th) Le Pen went to 2nd round of the French Presidential Elections, a one2one match. Is that not bigger?
-
Of course choosing your view and just look at one pixel Vona can be a Giant
@Bobo…:
Your last statement as usual describes yourself and your rantings very well …
Of course Haider’s FPÖ was “the” opposition once, stronger than the Austrian socialists – until he decided to split “his” party in half.
Probably the overwhelming majority of Austrians is glad that he killed himself by drunk driving (He was not murdered!), even his party members …
Regarding the rise and fall of right wing loonies, Viking is totally correct (and I’m glad about that, gives me hope for Hungary!) – we have had the same phenomenom several times in Germany, countrywide and locally …
Anyway in the long run, we’ll all be dust
@Bob
Some people are beyond help. You just explained to him why his lengthy, confused ramblings are useless and meaningless. What does he do? He comes back with another just as confused and meaningless post
And as for “to disappear in infighting and split”? Again, wtf are you talking about numbnuts? The FPÖ, Vlaams, the FN and the BNP are all ticking away with no prospect of disappearing any time soon. LePen and Griffin have been secure for decades. Haider, erm, died. So no chance of him still being leader. And the support of the Progress Party just switched to the DPP which is going from strength to strength…
bobscountrybunker at February 4, 2010 4:35 PM
—
Of the 2 I mentioned:
* Haider led FPÖ into the Austrian Government in 2000. In 2005 he split from FPÖ and formed BZÖ
So, FPÖ was no longer Haider’s party, BZÖ was
Infighting and split
.
* Glistrup:
On 22 August 1972, Glistrup founded the Progress Party, and in the landslide election of 1973 the party gained 28 seats of 179, making it the second-largest in parliament.
Was not Vona a ‘Genius’ today, for maybe making that in the future?
You claimed that no one done this – You lied, or you are just stupid?
I do not care
I am just laughing
You are as funny as Mogens Glistrup that suggested to replace the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs with an answering machine saying in Russian that Denmark surrenders
But for you Jobbik-guys that is not a joke, that is what you are planning
@Bobs…: Ok, how about this for a simple idea. Vona thinks he is bigger and better than normal people and won’t lower himself to explaining his policies (God forbid) unless he personally approves of who is asking the question (like that was ever relevant to content). But, let’s suppose for the sake of conjecture that he has a coherent policy and is open to debate. If this were the case would it not be in his and others interests for him to share his wisdom with the common people in an open forum? Now Barikád, Kuruc, Jobbik etc… – all the websites that wet themselves in their own tears every day moaning about the freedom of speech – don’t allow or support open discussion, in fact the actively hate and suppress it, as Vona has also said he wants to do. But how is he going to communicate his ideas? Does he just *tell* people and we bow our heads and be thankful that he has taken the time to communicate? Who is good enough for Vona to speak to? What circumstances will he engage with the electorate? Is this the pattern of things to come? You get what you are given and be damn well thankful he can be bothered at all with the likes of you surly plebs…?
He is scared of debate, he doesn’t like it because he really doesn’t have the ability or the facts, let alone the ability to reason and communicate coherently.
Mark is the idea Jobbik supporter. He is exactly what Vona wants from Hungarians – stupid, ignorant, grateful without reason, tame, repetitive, vacuous bollocks-mungers
Hike up the ante about the so-called far right all you want. They have not been near the parliamnet buildings in Budapest yet.
MSZP have been the government for the past seven years or so, Fidesz before that, and again in April.
Viking says:We all know that politicians inside all parties, not only MSZP were active before 1990, should they all be ‘disbarred’?
Answer: Yes. All clueless and corrupt -
no intellectual argument however long and convincing will change this fact.
@Vándorló:
You are much too kind to Murkybrain …
If we just ignore those jobo rantings, the discussion here is on a good level again – thanks for all the info (also to Viking, Olga etc …) – I’m still pessimistic though about the next four years.
We just have to wait for a new generation of politicians (and managers, teachers, etc) and hope that they weren’t spoiled by the example of those dreadful ex-Stalinists in all political parties and other positions in today’s Hungary …
Jobbik has a program and it is consistent with Jobbik’s positions we hear from their leaders. The Communists have admitted that they are liars and there is every indication that their campaign will continue to be drives by lies. So many of them are in jail, under arrest and under investigation that they have a hard time coming up anyone who is not a criminal. That takes care of MSZP and SZDSZ. To save what they can of their criminal organizations, MDF and SZDSZ combined forces. There is a lot of money pouring into MDF they did not have before they went to bed with SZDSZ.
Should Orban of Fidesz or Vona of Jobbik give these criminals some respectability by debating them as if their words were worth anything? I would consider that a mistake.
@AprilShowers: Whether you are talking about the left or right they are all tarred with the same brush with a few decent people amongst them (both on the left and right). Now I have said it before but talking of left and right means nothing in Hungary as there is a clear division between social and economic policies with each respective party adopting the opposite economic policies from those typically expected. MSZP is on the right (not too far) economically, MDF more to the right, Fidesz economics on the left (quite far) and Jobbik extreme (marxists). The joke is having Vona talk about economics when he would, as Bokros has said, ruin the country, absolutely. This country would never recover from having Jobbik in any power position and Fidesz are incapable of working with them. Fidesz have only been able to work with parties in the past who were either politically naive or easily absorbed into Fidesz rank and file (the embrace and destroy tactic).
So what is your point?
Since they have not been in power they have no duty or obligation to explain to people how and what they expect to govern?
It’s not about pointing the finger Hungarian style and moaning, it’s about having policies and coherent discourse.
The obligation is to communicate. So why the uncomfortable silence?
MDF just paid off a 10+ million forint judgment from money they did not have
Mark at February 4, 2010 4:50 PM
—
Wow,
That must be the guys to run Hungary in the future!
The people who will pay off Hungary’s debt to IMF/EU without even having the money to do it
That are the magicians Hungary needs
Mark, Hungary is indebted to you!
What did Fidesz do when they were in power some years ago ?
I wasn’t too much interested in Hungarian politics then (while still working in computers), just thinking that the transformation from a communist regime into a market driven one would take some time.
Can anyone point me to a desription of the developments during the “Orban years” ?
This might help me understand what ‘s in store for Hungary now …
Hike up the ante about the so-called far right all you want. They have not been near the parliamnet buildings in Budapest yet
AprilShowers at February 4, 2010 6:16 PM
—
But they have been in local assemblies around Hungary since the Autumn of 2006 and in the European Parliament for over 6 months
Many local assembly Jobbik-politicians were before Independent or on the MIEP-ticket, so they are not born yesterday
What special has Jobbik to prove that makes them so extremely different?
Maybe they are also just happy with getting paid by tax money for doing their own business?
===
“Viking says:We all know that politicians inside all parties, not only MSZP were active before 1990, should they all be ‘disbarred’?
Answer: Yes. All clueless and corrupt”
AprilShowers at February 4, 2010 6:16 PM
—
Well “corrupt” is a crime and if convicted that politician is away for some time, but the Constitution does not stop him or her to make a ‘come-back’ and why should it?
.
For “clueless” I have not seen that been made a crime anywhere in the world yet (I could be wrong, so please correct me!)
How do you actually define and evaluate “clueless”?
Who should do the ‘evaluation’ and how do we know that the people doing the evaluation are not “clueless” themselves?
.
I think, we who do not regard ourselves “clueless” when it comes to the principles of Parliamentarian Democracy would regard ‘Elections’ like that ‘evaluation-process’
.
But on the other hand, maybe we are all just “clueless”…
What did Fidesz do when they were in power some years ago?
wolfi at February 4, 2010 8:09 PM
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Good question
You lived here at that time also?
And you did not notice any dramatic shift?
I noticed in 1998 that the Top Management for the Hungarian State Owned Company I had some dealings with during the 90s (as employed to a foreign supplier who had a contract with them) totally changed the highest 3 levels
Many of them disappeared in 2002
Otherwise I started my restaurant during this time and that was quite an experience in being the target of organised crime from inside the Police
I was looking to buy security for my new place and approached different Security companies. One of them I later found out was run by one high boss of the Pest Detectives and his girlfriend, a Madame who supplied the girls to Escort Services
When we where discussing with them we actually got a bomb threat from some unknown gangster, who came in companion with some local street guys, who we recognised and therefore could assume it was just a ‘marketing gimmick’
In the end we bought security from the guy who protected the Russian Mafia’s rep in Hungary before. He was totally OK and honest and he was the only one who had license for a sub-machine gun for personal protection
The earlier years had been a bit rough in this business so you needed some kind of protection, with out that your place ended up belonging to any of the criminal gangs
-
Cont
Cont,
-
So these years 1998-2002 were not so different from the years before, but I would say that today that type of problems is much less and we have not needed any protection for 7-8 years or so
The other thing that has changed over the years, and this goes against mainstream screaming, and that is that what I can see corruption has been less
Corruption was big in the 90s, the Orban years did not change so much there. Actually I think the last time I had to pay in a Police checking (I was driving with the fog lamps on) was around 2000. It was definitely during the Orban years, but earlier in the 90s, especially 93-95 you had to drive with the 2-wallet system. Your real wallet you had under your seat, the one you gave the Police Officers just contained not so much
I was driving a Swedish registered car at that time and of course I was stopped a lot and not that it took half an hour every time while they were checking every bolt, just give them the driving license inside your wallet
Orban did a few things that I remember:
- Minimum wages which was very hard against everyone in the catering industry where most of the salary was built upon tip
- Attacked the usage of sugar in wine production and introduced that every wine bottle has a unique serial number, so it can be traced back. This was to increase taxes to the State and take away cheap competition to the old pre-communist owners’ new vineyards. This raised the price on wine very much
-
cont
Cont
-
- Also many of the small beer-breweries needed to close due to more tax checking and that of course made the market more for the bigger previous state-owned breweries
-
This has all been a very personal remembrance of these years, but the strongest memory and which is also personal is on the morning of the day after the General Election in 2002, when it was clear that Orban/Fidesz had lost
We are called by a good friend who always voted MIEP before and now Jobbik. He was terrified. He had not slept all night “Now the Communists will come back, it was suppose to be impossible”
He was seriously thinking of emigrating the next day
Of course he is also a US citizen, but like me he thinks life in the US sucks, but it is great in Hungary
-
This is the feeling (and despair) one have to understand among some of the people voting for MIEP and Jobbik. For us coming from another background, some of these guys are so stuck into this mentality that “the Communists” rule, even if everything they want is Kadar-time back, when all was so safe and predictable
-
So, a short answer what happened during Orban’s years 98-02 – not so much different from what happened before and after
For me it was actually more ‘socialism’ during Orban’s years. More taxes, more ‘efficient’ tax checking, more people employed at the tax office
And maybe was it that what people realised in 2002 and changed him for a non-socialist “Communist”?
@Viking:
Thanks a lot for your insights into the “Orban years” – for me as just a kind of regular visitor at that time it was a period of chanhing to the capitalist/ market oriented system in Hungary, I didn’t look very deep, because I did not believe that I wpuld spend so much time here.
My house was thought of more as a holiday home for the whole (extended) family and friends.
Well, Hungary has seen a lot of changes in the last 12 years, let us all hope that it gets better …
It seems that the money source for the MDF/SZDSZ coalition is drying up. Their sugar daddy Mesterházy (the other Mesterházy not the Senkiházy MSZP candidate
was busted for stealing from the public. Will he be able to write checks for David and Bokros from jail?
Mesterházyt őrizetbe vették, a következő Demszky lehet
http://www.magyarhirlap.hu/belfold/mesterhazyt_orizetbe_vettek_a_kovetkezo_demszky_lehet_.html
Not long before all the Communists go to prison
Not long before all the Communists go to prison
Mark at February 5, 2010 8:40 AM
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May we just remind Mark, while working hard to connect MDF to some alledged bad deals some SZDSZ politicians are accused of, that MDF’s chairwoman Ibolya Dávid was the Hungarian Minister of Justice between 1998-2002. She was the only female Minister in the government of Viktor Orbán
So accusing Dávid to be part of the “MSZP/SZDSZ/MDF Communist Mafia” as Mark is doing all the time, would then put some stains on Viktor Orbán and his Fidesz, would it not?
So why not call Fidesz for Szidesz, as Jobbik does officially?
Vándorló. Jobbik are growing because of the discontentment among voters with the old guard of Fidesz and MSZP.
I am not moaning. Could I care less?
I know that Bokros has a hold on reality as far
as the economic side of things is concerned.
I have continually asked the parties (especially
Jobbik) about their policies.
Jobbik produced an 88-page document and I have extrapolated some of the finer points.
I am very wary of what Vona/Morvai are saying about trading partners i.e. Russia, China, and Turkey. They have a sour taste in their mouths about the EU. But, then again, so do a lot of people.
I speak for myself. I do not speak for any individual party. You might be a liberal and expound your viewpoints from that perspective.
Good luck.
I am no fuckin’ mug. So please do not take me for one.
I will respect you as long as you observe my last sentiment.