The radical nationalist Jobbik party called for the removal of a Soviet war memorial from Szabadsag Square in central Budapest at a press conference on Tuesday.
The prominent memorial has been a subject of dispute since the change of regime in 1989. It has many fierce opponents who argue that it is the only Soviet memorial left in its original pre-1989 place in the city and it should go. Radical nationalists have on several occasions defaced the memorial for which courts have handed down fines.
Jobbik deputy leader Elod Novak however said that a prosecutor’s office has recently declared the symbols of authoritarianism – the hammer and sickle – on the obelisk illegal, yet no action has to date been taken by police or government to remove the monument to a sculpture park or a cemetery. He added that Jobbik had plans to cover the reliefs on the monument with black foil on Tuesday, but round-the-clock police presence prevented the action.
Jobbik would like to see a memorial for the post-WWI Trianon treaty with a national flag half-mast returned to the square.
Hungarian laws ban the distribution or public use of symbols of authoritarianism, such as the swastika, the SS-badge, the arrow cross, the hammer and sickle and the five-pointed red star.
However, the obelisk located in downtown Budapest’s fifth district is protected by a Hungarian-Russian agreement of 1995 which also protects memorials to fallen Hungarians in Russia. The agreement stipulates that war graves and memorials can only be removed with mutual consent.
Novak said the Hungarian government could unilaterally terminate the agreement. He added that it would be incorrect to draw a parallel between the obelisk and the Hungarian war graves in Russia as no Soviet soldiers are resting under the Budapest obelisk.
Come on boys, where are you??
Little over a month ago the likes of Vandorlo and very much Viking, oh yes Viking couldn’t get enough of it, were going on constantly about it!
Claiming that Jobbik was refusing to face this issue because it was opposed to all foreign interference in Hungary except Russian, of course. Ho ho ho.
All silent now, aren’t you my little Scando-nutter? I do love it when your constant stream of utter bullshit ends up all over your face.
I agree with jobbik, to hell the communist pigs, take that insult to hungarian society down! The freedomfighters didnt die to have symbols of soviet dominance to have a place in hungarian society.
RIA RIA RIA
to hell with the communist pigs* dammit, does anyone know how to edit your postings?
@Bobs…: I know, read it and thought how spooky they go and do exactly what I was whinging they hadn’t done. Especially the bit about putting the Trianon memorial back. Will it be the original flowerbed in the shape of ‘greater’ Hungary or just some tasteless red and white stripe affair?
Perhaps they can reuse the Lord Rothermere memorial near to the Szabó Ervin Könyvtár?
Are we going to get anymore financial details of their plans or is this the extent of their populist policies?
I asked you specific questions about pensions, education reform and their (jobbik) continual reference to curtailing or abolishing media they don’t like. Any chance of a response on any of those things?
you can bet that if Hungary does get rid of the memorial in Budapest, the Russians will dig up the one in Russia; war graves or not.
…not that I think the Soviet memorial should stay, because I can see why it is upsetting to many Hungarians.
I’m not so sure about the Trianon memorial. I have no problem with there being a memorial, but I think it’s important to think about what it supposed to achieve. If its aim is recognition and memory, then no problem, but if it is to provoke or inflame negative attitudes, well, that is something different. I like the Trianon memorial in Debrecen because of its simplicity and the call to remember the lost children of Hungary. I don’t think having a flag constantly flying at half mast is a good idea nor as Van raised some reference to suggest a return to ‘greater Hungary’. Ok, so yes, I know that it’s up to Hungarians to decide and I respect that, but yeah, while I don’t question the patriotism of the more extreme right-wing, I’m not convinced that the outcomes of their policies will actually make the country better off.
The idea of greater hungary will lead to our deaths, it is a dream that we all wish would come true, but it wont. Unless we discover a super weapon that no one else has then maybe…
Germany wanted Greater Germany and that didnt go to well for them. So i still don’t understand why hungarians chase this illusion? Have they seen the future or have ingenious plan to get it back? At the moment we are just screaming that we want it back, which is pointless.
In my opinion i think that war is probably the only way we will get it ALL back at the moment , i doubt our neighbors will just give it back to us if we just talk to them.
Little over a month ago the likes of Vandorlo and very much Viking, oh yes Viking couldn’t get enough of it, were going on constantly about it!
Claiming that Jobbik was refusing to face this issue because it was opposed to all foreign interference in Hungary except Russian, of course. Ho ho ho
bobscountrybunker at February 10, 2010 11:46 AM
—-
Nice to see that I still can influence the policy of Jobbik
Like a few years ago
-
I have a friend who was in Russia this year on an international conference. Mostly old Soviet Republics were there, just a few outside the old Soviet union
One of the Russian Vice Presidents asked the conference why other countries did not respect Soviet WWII monuments?
For my friend this trip to Russia was very much about to discover that the Russian leadership regards the old Soviet union as their Trianon-loss
-
So, Jobbik, the most pro-Russian party in Hungarian politics, just go on and attack that monument!
RIA RIA RIA
@ bobscountrybunker
You are so right about Jobbik and all the lies about Jobbik but you are dead wrong about these pests ever shutting up.
@Vandorlo
Sorry, I was not being deliberately evasive. And I have no recollection of this enquiry, unless I return to a thread, and if someone makes a comment after you I have no way of telling if you have addressed one to me, do I?
I only returned to this thread, for example, because I noticed Mark’s one to me on the Politics.hu front page.
In any case I am spending less time here because I’m on the road and will be for a while. Feel free to ask again in a week or so, if we get the chance.
@Cináed
…not that I think the Soviet memorial should stay, because I can see why it is upsetting to many Hungarians.
—–
I don’t think I am admitting to anything shaming when I say that my grandmother was raped by the Red Army during Hungary’s “liberation” pretty much every woman in Budapest was.
This is why that monument is a disgusting stain on the country. This is a fact, and there is no reason why it ever should have been a party political issue. Just like the gypsy issue, and rampant political embezzlement, the state of Magyar communities outside Hungary, and multi-national corporation malpractise the only reason why these matters have ever ended up being possessed by the far-Right is because the SZDSZ, MSZP, MDF and Fidesz have simply refused to ever face or address them. But the people want these matters addressed, which is why they vote for Jobbik.
Bobs..@Thanks for sharing those feelings,my heart goes out to your grandma and all other who suffered.
Your comment is so true and reasoned.
My relations in the South did not suffer like those in BP, but the wars final months were still hell.
@ Bobs;
You took me back when you mentioned your Grandmother being raped.
I remember my Mom telling me years ago, that during the war, they basically hid her older sister under pillows and would not let here out of the house, for fear of her being raped as well.
Saddens me, knowing how evil people can be towards one another.
Recommended reading:
http://www.amazon.com/Woman-Berlin-Eight-Weeks-Conquered/dp/0312426119/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265823418&sr=8-1
@ Bobs;
Just checked out your recommendation on Amazon and added it to my wish list. That’s the kind of book that takes me a good couple of months to finish. I end up bawling, giving myself a headache, which in-turn scares the kids. Ah well.
That is one of the reasons why everybody should hope for unity, if not the world, then at least first in Europe – because we don’t want any more wars!
Of course terrible things like rape and wanton killings happen in wars, I too could tell stories of German girls being raped by Moroccan soldiers in the French army – but of course German and Hungarian soldiers raped Russian girls too and so on …
Just think about what happened in the Balkan not too long ago!
Therefore I am against all kinds of Nationalism and Patriotism which says “we are better than you” or “we want this land back” – it could only lead to more horrible wars.
And so I am very thankful for the EU – even though it is some kind of bureaucratic monster, but all governments tend to be like this …
bob: you raise a good point, and yes, I agree that there should be no shame for the victims of rape at the hands of Red soldiers.
What bothers me is that while Jobbik might be able to tap into the feelings of hurt, resentment and unrecognised trauma within the population, this is not enough on its own to make it a good government. I know that Hungary’s transition out of communism is often regarded as a soft transition, but I think the failure to deal with the long term abuse and neglect of the nation and its population by the communists at the time of transition sowed the seeds of later radical nationalism. In any case, in my view the result of extreme language is extreme actions, and I can’t see any good coming from that. Someone else posted here that Hungary needs a revolution, which I just can’t agree with. Revolutions are often violent, messy, difficult to control, have many unforeseen consequences and often end up with autocratic, undemocratic governments in control.I think calls by other posters to hear what Jobbik’s policies are on health, welfare and education are valid, because mostly what I read and hear about is their policies on questions of nationalism, expressions of antagonism for other groups and a desire to de-link with the international community, which would be a disaster for the Hungarian economy.
Hungarian economy is already in shambles by corrupt ex commie leaders, Neo Liberal liars who have sold out the country, you prefer this then Cinaed you idiot!
I don’t think I am admitting to anything shaming when I say that my grandmother was raped by the Red Army during Hungary’s “liberation” pretty much every woman in Budapest was
bobscountrybunker at February 10, 2010 6:03 PM
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On 15 October, Horthy announced that Hungary had signed an armistice with the Soviet Union. The Hungarian army ignored the armistice, fighting desperately to keep the Soviets out. The Germans launched Operation Panzerfaust and, by kidnapping his son Miklós Horthy, Jr., forced Horthy to abrogate the armistice, depose the Lakatos government, and name the leader of the Arrow Cross Party, Ferenc Szálasi, as Prime Minister. Horthy resigned and Szálasi became Prime Minister of a new “Hungarian State” (Magyar Állam) controlled by the Germans
In cooperation with the Nazis, Szálasi attempted to resume deportations of Jews, but Germany’s fast-disintegrating communications largely prevented this from happening. Nonetheless, the Arrowcross launched an unbelievable reign of terror on the Jews of Budapest. Thousands were tortured, raped and murdered in the last months of the war, and their property looted or destroyed
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So what goes around comes around
That is why, as Wolfie pointed out, peace and cooperation is better, than ‘Nationalism’, regardless if you has it on its own, with a ‘Inter-’ or a ‘Social ‘ before it
That is why it is important to be totally clear that today, February 11th is not the
-
http://www.dayofhonour.hu/
-
It is a day of disgrace
Get ready for a roller coaster ride that will really rock the boat for your ongoing propaganda Viking!
Your historical quotes are lies of propaganda to support your aganda of Neo Liberal corruption, nearly all mainstream history written on our Hungarian History are lies. You’re going to regret ever moving here, now you will see how much Hungarians had to suffer under your lies, Karma is going to bite you on the arse, not long now.
You’re going to regret ever moving here, now you will see how much Hungarians had to suffer under your lies, Karma is going to bite you on the arse, not long now.
Law at February 11, 2010 10:17 AM
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Aah, now it is getting fun
The old Vikinga-blood is starting to warm up
Time to sharpen the sword and check the material in the ‘awakening’ of April 12
Or was it something else, Law meant:
-
http://www.nfp.hu/rendezvenyeink/3-rendezvenyeink/5-campaign-meeting-of-the-national-revolutional-party
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JustAsking – Do you bite someone “on the arse”, or ‘in the arse’, or just ‘bite some one’s arse’?
So many options in this strange language
Why cannot all just speak the language of the Brave and Good
(That was Swedish for the imbecile lot on this site)
-
Well, I survived the first Fidesz Government, despite unique serial-numbers on all wine bottles, not allowed to have more than one bottle of the same type of drink open and bomb threats from high Police Officers if we did not buy security from them
So what can ‘new’ Fidesz do worse?
@ Viking;
How Law phrased it was correct, although in Canada we do not say “arse” we say “ass”.
If you were to bite someone “in the arse/ass” that would require one to actually crawl up into a person’s asshole and chew from there. That would take a little time and alot of KY, so in my opinion, I would suggest the route of biting one “on the arse” it is quick and right to the point. As for the “bite some one’s arse”, I would say that could be used in a sentence similar to ” To night I think I’ll just go out and “bite some one’s arse/ass” OR “go get a drink” OR “go see a movie”. Something along that line.
Did that help you at all?
@ Bob
Your grandma’s rape is a horrific tragedy and having worked with rape victims, the trauma is never forgotten by the victim; it’s a lifetime sentence.
“Feminists identify rape as a systemic, historical and patriarchal construct
of war. Starhawk [Digest #7] has shown that throughout history, rape has
been an omnipresent aspect of militarism, and to this day, basic military
training establishes women as targets for sexual conquer. This endemic
sexual violence against women in conflict zones reflects an ingrained
misogyny which views women as the “spoils of war”, whether for satisfying
the sexual appetites of the troops, destroying the community pride of the
vanquished, punishing women who have resisted their conquerors, or as part
of an overall strategy of genocide.”
Reference: WAR and RAPE: A DIGEST OF REFERENCED ARTICLES
On Sexual Violence and Armed Conflict: Unparalleled military violence
against women at the dawn of the third millennium
As I write this, women are being raped in war torn countries – so no one should limit this horrific crime to their own history and use it as a political propaganda because it negates the suffering and humiliation of woman in past and present world wide.
Which is why I recommended that book, “A woman in Berlin.” Her determination not to become a victim. There is so much in it. Like the fact that the women of Berlin knew what was going to happen to them, but some even welcomed it. The phrase was, “Better a Russian on top than an American overhead.” Such was the psychological effects of the constant aerial bombardment. I also understand that a film of the book is actually due for release this year.
Anyway, without wishing to trivialise, I think we have managed to confirm that a big pink phallic Red Army monument has no place in the centre of Budapest. And thinking that does not make you an extremist.
@ Bob
Sounds like your grandmother refused to be come a victim as well because she told the story. Therefore, she was not ashamed of what happened to her, did not feel she was somehow “responsible” and did not keep it a secret. Part of the healing process. Unfortunately not every woman is as strong as your grandmother appears to have been
About the Russian Monument – on the surface it seems so obvious that it ought not be there that I think I am missing part of the story. Is it possible the government is afraid to take it down in fear of the Hungarian graves in Russia being then desecrated? The fact that this monument doesn’t have Russian soldiers buried under it, does not mean the Russians would not retaliate
and destroy memorials to fallen Hungarians in Russia. (That’s how much “trust” I was brought up with when it comes to Russia)
Off topic: Are you living in Britain? Met a man recently who is in Canada for a year “turning a British company around” – meaning he will cut staff and increase unemployment. Not someone I’d like to spend more time with but he “held court” on European politics.
He had terrible things to say about the BNP as well as the “Lunatic Left” in Britain. Would be interested in what you thought – his take was different from what I expected. I only want to post it and paraphrase it if you are actually living in the UK
I also forgot to reference my previous posting re war and rape as I only copied one paragraph
http://www.peace.ca/warandrape.htm
I received 1 st credit loans when I was 25 and that aided my family a lot. But, I need the car loan again.
“For my friend this trip to Russia was very much
about to discover that the Russian leadership
regards the old Soviet union as their Trianon-loss”
United Russia didn’t until Ivan III (1470′s) the
russian Empire is young. Most of its conquered
territories were only 200 years old. Their
population was only between 5-6M in the 16th
century:))))) They hadn’t great medieval past. They
lost only 20% of their former soviet territories.
Hungary was born as a big and united country.
@idiote idiote:
You must be very fond of irrelevant numbers – why don’t you go out and count to one million – very slowly …
At least that would keep you occupied …
Bob,
It’s a not secret that the Russians committed attrocities in Budapest and Berlin and maybe elsewhere. However, one has to ask whether it was better that Hungary remain under German control or be liberated by the Russian army.
The fundamental problem was not Russian liberation, but the fact that the Russians would not leave.
There are many ways the attrocities committed by the Russians, including a monument to the victims.
To me that is more savvy way of making the point than dismembering the Russian memorial in Szabadszag.
Bear in mind the Russians can retaliate quite easily against the Hungarians since Hungarians fought with the Germans against the Russians.
No one is innocent in Eastern Europe …
AiB,
“No one is innocent in Eastern Europe …”
Why limit it to Eastern Europe, do the innocent live exclusively in the West?
Hungary was born as a big and united country.
For idiote Viking at October 24, 2010 8:35 AM
—
When trying to make yourself look big and beautiful – complaint about the competition
A concept for success?
-
That other countries *think* they have *their* Trianon-stories, it does not mean that everything must be a copy
Demanding a copy is like when certain people claim that there is only one “Holocaust”
Not every one agree, even if the Jewish Holocaust was different from the Armenian
-
If we now should concentrate on your statement above, which “Hungary” was that?
Did “Hungary” exist before the ‘Honfoglalás’, (896 AD), like ‘Gyula László claim with his thery of the ‘kettős honfoglalás’ (the first one was 670 AD)?
Or do we just speak about the 100 years between the ‘Honfoglalás’ and the coronation of St. Stephen (1000/1001 AD)?
Because you can just not just betray Koppány and call “Hungary” the country that pulled down its pants and bent over just to be part of Europe with the betrayal of the Magyar tradition of agnatic seniority by fejedelem Géza?
But if you do, did that country not disappear as an independent NationState in 1526, just to have major parts occupied and the Hungarian Nobility split in which ruler they should support?
This is the country that was affected by Trianon
Maybe Trianon would not have happened if fejedelem Géza had not done his coup d’état by naming his son Vajk as his successor and there by creating the Arpad dynasty?
@ American in BP
I believe you mentioned you were Jewish and that you presently lived in Hungary and sang France’s praises after Sarkozi ‘s actions against the Roma
Thanks to this website I caught a permanent but slight case of the Conspiracy theory bug.
Every now and then I think that some of the worst racist “JOBBIK supporters” are planted by the other political parties on this website to disgrace JOBBIK from possible main stream support
On that note, you must be a JOBBIK plant because you are doing a fine job to encourage anti-American and anti-Semitic feelings
United Russia didn’t until Ivan III (1470′s) the
russian Empire is young. Most of its conquered
territories were only 200 years old. Their
population was only between 5-6M in the 16th
century:))))) They hadn’t great medieval past. They lost only 20% of their former soviet territories.
For idiote Viking at October 24, 2010 8:35 AM
—
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
-
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o’clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
And you try and tell the young people of today that ….. they won’t believe you.
ALL:
They won’t!
@Olga,
“On that note, you must be a JOBBIK plant because you are doing a fine job to encourage anti-American and anti-Semitic feelings”
Why does that have to be the scenario?
Is it not possible that this Zionist American, who lives in Hungary, who really should be living in France…speaks his own truth? Is it not possible for people like him to exist?
@olga
You are quite right. There are several people who
wander in and out with that objective.
I only ever caught one red-handed. There was this
“Laszlo kovasc” character who would come here with
very bad English and start by saying he was just an
ordinary reasonable Jobbik supporter and then by the
end his post would always descend into advocating
violence and the invasion of Hungary’s neighbours.
Myself and Vándorló examined his language and it was
clear from some advanced grammar and vocabulary,
that he was someone with much better English
pretending to be somebody s/he wasn’t.
@ justasking
Of course it’s possible, but I am always amazed
when people try to sabotage their own agenda or hurt their own people. (That’s what I have against KM because IMHO she hurts female lawyers’ reputations, women in general and Hungary’s image)
I don’t care what I would advocate for – JOBBIK, MG, Zionism, Muslim Terrorits, Illegal Immigrqants, Cigarette smoking, the topic is irrelevant but I would want to put my cause in the best light.
Remember someone posted a YouTube clip about David Duke singing the praises of white supremacy?
I was impressed by his delivery, carefully chosen words, calm cool demeanor and I could understand how pople would be impressed by his bullshit. I would give him an A for being a fracist pig ( apologies to all pigs)
I don’t know about you but the way people present their causes around here sabotage the very ideas they are supposed to stand for or hurt the people they supposedly care about.
Thus why would American in BP want to increase anti-Semitic feelings with his offensive postings unless he had a hidden agenda ?
I did warn you I caught a slight case of the Conspiracy Theory bug
Just because your paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not
all out to get you…
@Olga,
“I don’t know about you but the way people present their causes around here sabotage the very ideas they are supposed to stand for or hurt the people they supposedly care about”
Hey, you and I have talked about this and you’re right. No matter how good a persons intentions are, it will get lost in translation when you start jumping up and down like a raving lunatic.
I appreciate when a person presents to me a reason why they might resent/disagree with a situation/person etc and will listen to them. Might not agree with what they have to say, but will try and understand where they are coming from.
I immediately shut myself down when I am presented with blanket statements IE: ‘I hate this’ ‘they deserved that’, deliveries.
“Thus why would American in BP want to increase anti-Semitic feelings with his offensive postings unless he had a hidden agenda ?”
Why does he have to have a ‘hidden’ agenda? Why can’t he just be sharing his feeling, beliefs etc like some people around here, and simply could careless on what others think? I find people with these extreme ‘gettim at any cost’ type of attitudes, could give 2 shits on how it can/does impact others.
They feel that they are in the right/justified and that is that. That’s why in the end it always blows up in their faces…history proves that.
“I did warn you I caught a slight case of the Conspiracy Theory bug”
Me too. I have to keep pulling myself back.
“Ragaszkodni fajához, életével védelmezni honát,
hitét, szabadságát, függetlenségét, lelkesülni
őseinek dicsőségén és soha el nem feledni a
csapásokat, a melyek nemzetét sújtották s inkább
örökre elmúlni, mint nyelvéről és faji egyéniségéről
lemondani: ez a nemes magyar lélek.”
Eötvös Károly: A Bakony (1908)
@ justasking
On my posting to Jassi, I cut and pasted a comment from someone called Peter concerning the rather ridiulous sounding lawsuit that was commenced in Chicago against the Hungarian Railway.
Peter’s comment I could understand and he certainly questioned the Jewish relatives of the Holocaust victims safely living in the US making it difficult for Jewish people living in Hungary.
I believe that’s what American in BP is doing and while he can leave hungary and live in glorious France or the US, the Jewish people in Hungary might not have that option.
I always mentioned that my sympathies are with the Roma in Hungary because I think their options in Hungary are much more limited than the Jewish people’s.
BTW, I did agree with Bob – if an Israeli newspaper writes that anti-Semitism is worse in Sweden than Hungary then I am all for writing the truth and let’s not call BP the anti-Semitism capital of Europe, it’s bad enough without being labeled the worst
I see Law is alive and well and still able to post Hungarian poems. It’s a beautiful verse, wish I understood every word but most of it and also understood the meaning, so if you understood every word then your Hungarian language skills are better than mine – not that it’s a contest but I want to be better mert en ott szulettem and don’t your forget it.( Hope you know I am kidding)
BTW, I did agree with Bob – if an Israeli newspaper writes that anti-Semitism is worse in Sweden than Hungary then I am all for writing the truth and let’s not call BP the anti-Semitism capital of Europe, it’s bad enough without being labeled the worst
olga at October 24, 2010 8:24 PM
—
May I just point out that ‘bob’ in his original post on Malmö did not not coin that expression “that anti-Semitism is worse in Sweden than Hungary”
Neither did the Israeli paper
*But* Hungary is probably leading the pack on Continental Europe when it comes to “Death Squads” roaming the countryside killing off Roma on random
The similar serial attack we had in Sweden beginnings of the 90s was performed by a single lunatic. On the current serial attack, just in Malmö and not targeting Jews, we can just speculate on, but all witness so far have only spoke about a single attacker
The Slovak anti-Roma serial killer earlier this year was also another lone lunatic, so Hungary seem to have the lead in organised “Death Squads”