February 23rd, 2010

Hungarian MPs criminalize Holocaust denial

The denial of the Holocaust will be punishable by law under a bill passed by Parliament on Monday afternoon.

Those who publicly deny the Holocaust, call it into doubt or present it as insignificant may be sentenced to up to three years in prison.

The motion submitted by Socialist prime ministerial candidate Attila Mesterházy was passed with 197 votes in favour, one dissension and 144 abstentions. Free Democrat József Gulyás was the lone dissenter; Fidesz MPs abstained.

If President László Sólyom signs the bill into law, it will enter into force 30 days later.

Fidesz submitted a motion to criminalise the public denial of crimes against humanity committed by communist as well as fascist regimes but Parliament rejected it by a vote of 178-146.

Mazsihisz president Péter Feldmájer, executive director Gusztáv Zoltai and several Holocaust survivors attended the voting at the invitation of the Socialist Party.

Parliament later made participation in the leadership of a dissolved social organisation punishable by up to three years in prison, raising the seriousness of such activity from a misdemeanour to a crime. The bill was passed by 177 affirmative votes and 140 abstentions, as Fidesz did not support it.

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  • http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,785907,00.html BIG JIM IS CURIOUS

    Are these stinking Communists out of their minds?
    How about those who are just sick and tired of this never-ending holocaust garbage?
    Do they have enough prison space to house all those who say fuck it?
    Don’t the Hungarians have something in the Constitution protecting free speech and don’t they need 2/3 to override it?
    Same questions about free association.
    Is Lenvai a Rákosi clone?

  • wolfi

    “Fidesz MPs abstained” – They did not vote against this law. Interesting …

  • olga

    @ Wolfi
    Trying to read between the lines.
    FIDESZ abstained from voting but : “Fidesz submitted a motion to criminalise the public denial of crimes against humanity committed by communist as well as fascist regimes but Parliament rejected it by a vote of 178-146.”
    Did they abstain because they could only support legislation that’s “inclusive” ?
    “crimes against humanity committed by communist as well as fascist ” sounds fair.

  • Bystander

    I completely agree with Olga on that.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    This is bad news, and I’m not surprised why people are upset about it. Sometimes I just shake my head and think this is exactly the kind of thing that just inflames tensions.
    I do believe in freedom of speech and think this kind of move is only going to backfire.None of this should have happened in the first place, but the defeat of the communist atrocity denial bill just really makes it all too much.
    -
    It’s pretty clear to me that the holocaust did happen, but to criminilise its denial is not right. All of WWII was a holocaust, including the sins of the allies, east and west.

  • justasking

    Orban abstained from voting because he knows which side his bread is buttered.
    This isn’t bad news, it’s sad news.

  • olga

    @ Cinaed
    It was not my intent to unleash a debate about “Holocaust Denial”
    I was trying to figure out why FIDESZ abstained from voting and given the motion they later introduced, the answer became clear to me.
    So from my perspective, it’s like opposing legislation that limits “Domestic Abuse” to women.
    I would oppose such legislation

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Hi Olga,
    When I posted my post, it was only second on the board. When I came back to check, there were others ahead of it…perhaps we all posted at the same time and they were all in a queue. I don’t know…it gets a bit glitchy sometimes. Anyway, point is, my post wasn’t a response to yours, it was just my own thoughts in general.
    -
    For the record, on this topic, it should be all or nothing. Either denial of all state sponsored atrocities is outlawed, or none are. Personally, I prefer the second option, because although ‘turn around is fair play’, ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’.
    -
    sorry for the gratuitous use of cliches.

  • olga

    @ Cinaed
    I totally agree with your second paragraph.
    What I find strange about this website is that less than 2 months before the election, party platforms are still unclear while past issues are hotly debated.
    I recognize that I am an outsider and have no right to interfere in Hungary’s election process, but hopefully it’s not considered “treason” to be puzzled.
    The thought has occured to me that Orban’s campaign people have advised him to “plead the 5th ” and just cross his fingers that the polls are right.

  • justasking

    @ Vandor,
    My ability to follow conversations is just fine, I do however begin to have difficulty following some conversations, when they get twisted around.
    Like what is happening now.
    I NEVER said that Elle was upset about anything you wrote. I left HER a note saying I liked her play on words regarding your name.
    Olga, than threw in something about Elle saying that your brain is not wired properly?!? Where she got that one, ask her.
    The impression I got from Olga, was that she was accusing Elle of trying to pick a fight with you, where I than said read the comment that you left her ( Elle) in Hungarian, and see why she “could” have made the statement about your brain, retaliation if you will.
    Now, is that as clear as mud? Will you leave me alone now?

  • justasking

    My apologies, I posted a response to the wrong thread.

  • http://www.centralbudapest.com Vándorló

    @Justasking: Fair points all. Apologies if I appeared to be badgering you about it. Personally I thought Elle took it in bad faith and needs to learn that to affect a real hoity-toity attitude she needs to leave her natural hoi-polloi pedigree behind.

  • justasking

    @ Vandor;
    Truth be told, it’s kinda hard to figure out, when your “joking” around and when your not. You don’t exactly come across as a person who has a wicked sense of humour, nor who appreciates people that do.
    I just get the impression that your a “fuddy-duddy” who’s face would crack if ya smiled. Who knows, I might be wrong.

  • Robocop

    @justasking. I don’t think you’re wrong.
    xxx!

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    Orban abstained from voting because he knows which side his bread is buttered.
    This isn’t bad news, it’s sad news.
    justasking at February 23, 2010 4:42 PM
    —-
    I suppose you do not agree with the constitutional scholar Joseph Magnet that argues Canada has more hate crime legislation forbidding certain ideas from being promulgated than any other country in the world, then?
    (Magnet, Joseph. Free Expression. p. 229 & 244)
    -
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime#Canada
    -
    Or, did I misinterpret you, and you think it was sad that Orban did not vote for the new legislation, instead of abstaining?

  • ti

    It would be a fair law if there were also a law making it illegal for the jews to deny that they did not deserve it. Then everyone could at least agree.

  • justasking

    @ Viking;
    Your gone from Politics for a couple of days and come back making even less sense then you normally do. What, did ya get into the Opium whilst on this “money making ” endeavor?? I bet it was one Hell of a trip. Wink, wink!!
    So here goes, lets talk turkey.
    I do agree with Mr.Magnet, Canadians try to cover all corners and all possible scenarios, and because of this attitude, what ends up happening… a shit load of Hate Crime Laws. That’s just the way we tick in the North Country. They tend to be broad based Laws that include ALL CANADIAN CITIZENS and not just SOME CANADIAN CITIZENS.
    Are you understanding the difference between our Canadian Hate Crime Legislation and the Holocaust Denial Law?!?? No, well then let me explain it another way.
    We Canadians pride ourselves on being an inclusive society, a politically correct society, a “come on over,were all equal” society. Sometimes, I admit, we fail; but, more often than not, we don’t. So,try and understand where I’m coming from when I see Laws introduced that essentially say:”This group of people are more important than the rest of you, and if you dare say other wise, your going to jail” That to me is sad, elevating people on the backs of others.
    Now,I’m in the middle of watching Canada vs Germany. Oh,Germany is getting it’s ass handed back to them on a silver platter. Last time I check it was 7-1 for Canada and still 11 min in the 3rd period. Must be Wolfie the good luck charm.Well good luck for Canada that is!

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    I do agree with Mr.Magnet, Canadians try to cover all corners and all possible scenarios, and because of this attitude, what ends up happening… a shit load of Hate Crime Laws. That’s just the way we tick in the North Country. They tend to be broad based Laws that include ALL CANADIAN CITIZENS and not just SOME CANADIAN CITIZENS
    justasking at February 24, 2010 3:41 AM

    Hate Crimes as such happens to “SOME CANADIAN CITIZENS”, not “ALL CANADIAN CITIZENS”
    It is built in the concept that Hate Crimes is about the hatred to one or more specific groups (at the specific time of the crime)
    No one would be accused of Hate Crime when attacking a “CANADIAN” in Canada based on the concept the victim is “CANADIAN”, then the concept of being “CANADIAN” is that you comprise of all your minorities
    Exactly the same thing being ‘Hungarian’ in Hungary (post-Trianon)
    Hate Crime is that you are attacked of being a member of a group, not that you are a bad person yourself (here the legal evaluation comes in if the victim was attacked as a proxy for a group or not)
    -
    Now I have not seen the new Hungarian law, but as I understand it, the existing Canadian Criminal Code prohibits “hate propaganda” and here we do have 99% of ‘Holocaust-denial’
    The Canadian Human Rights Act prohibits discrimination on various grounds, and forbids the posting of hateful or contemptuous messages on the Internet
    My question should more be interpreted in:
    * How can you live with all these restriction of ‘Free Speech’?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    For me the following paragraph is the most interesting in the article:
    -
    “Parliament later made participation in the leadership of a dissolved social organisation punishable by up to three years in prison, raising the seriousness of such activity from a misdemeanour to a crime. The bill was passed by 177 affirmative votes and 140 abstentions, as Fidesz did not support it”

    I read this as a targeted law against the legally dissolved Magyar Garda, but so far no comments on that…
    And for laws goes, all can be changed by the next Parliament and they start working sometime in May, after the 2nd round (April 11 + 2 weeks) has been legally finalised
    Will be interesting to see what changes Fidesz will do to these laws, if any at all
    -
    Any way these laws will be challenged up to the Constitutional Court as soon as Solymon signs them
    Maybe the trick is actually just to get Solymon to refuse them, then this Parliament cannot work with them again and the next Parliament will chose to do something or not
    A bit of election tactic

  • bobscountrybunker

    “I read this as a targeted law against the legally dissolved Magyar Garda [sic Association], but so far no comments on that…”

  • godot

    Dear God,
    This last year you took away my favorite singer,
    MICHAEL JACKSON, my favorite actor, PATRICK SWAYZE and my favorite actress FARRAH FAWCETT.
    Let me remind you
    that my favorite politician is MAHMOUD AHMEDINEJAD. And my favourite political organisation is jobbik.
    Please don’t forget !!!
    thank you very much!

  • bobscountrybunker

    That’s right boys, arresst Vona and ban Jobbik. That’ll make the problem go away.
    You can’t possibly refer to a segment of 7% of the population using the term “gypsy crime” because that would lead to dangerous levels of alienation and the distinct possibility of legitimate violence unrest. Look at Sajóbábony! Who could have blamed the Roma, right, my liberal friends?
    But denying 15% of the electorate their deomocratic rights and imprisoning their polticial leaders. That’s fine. That’ll never have consequences. Never…

  • judas

    it is not the first time that the law to punish
    holocaust denial was tabled in parliament.
    Previous attemps were unsuccessful and it seems
    that this time too solyom will find a way to send
    it back to parliament, most probably on grounds that it is not competible with hungarys basic right of “freedom of expression”.
    Now ,one might even doubt if this the right way to go.Should not education be more emphasized?
    should we not forget the whole thing altogeteher
    not to “wake up sleeping xenophobics”or to antagonize the extreme right?etc.
    I think for the time being a 2 way approach is surely necessary.Yes,under current circumstances
    a law which punishes holocaust denial and hate speech is needed. In the same time a major
    educational effort has to get under way.
    Germanys efforts in this respect are exemplary
    and hungarian politicians might well learn a thing
    here.

  • judas

    Dear olga,
    the socialist tabled this law (not the first time)
    at the end of their term knowing it will not be ratified.A costfree attempt to get jewish or
    ‘hungarian closet jews” votes. Fidesz abstained
    because the might loose the right voters. Its pure
    pre-election politics ,no honesty,no civil courage,no ethical motivation…pure ,dark,tribal
    survival insticts, archaic at best.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    But denying 15% of the electorate their deomocratic rights and imprisoning their polticial leaders. That’s fine. That’ll never have consequences. Never…
    bobscountrybunker at February 24, 2010 1:15 PM

    bob continue to play with numbers
    There is no 15% of the electorate
    The close to 15% was in the last EP-election and with a voter turnout around 43%, that was less than 500.000 actual voters
    So if the turnout had been 100% the % would have been less, then Jobbik-voters are more inclined to go and vote, then they feel more pissed off and think they can make a difference
    But still less than 500.000 actual voters
    If Jobbik will break the glass-ceiling of 500.000 real voters on April 11 is a good question
    Today’s polls do not suggest that
    -
    The law that is discussed above was about making the ‘punishment’ more severe, not arresting more people (“raising the seriousness of such activity from a misdemeanour to a crime”), but that is of course out of bob’s and his best friend godot’s scope

  • olga

    @ Judas @ justasking
    Thanks – rather disappointing opinion but then again politicians do what they have to do – sell their soul for votes. Part of the dirty game called politics.
    @justasking – pretty good summary of the Canadian system. I know that if an actual crime is committed and a person or persons can be charged with something “other than hate crime” under the Criminal Code, the Crown will proceed under the “other crime” because hate crime is hard to prove.
    BTW, being raised in Canada, do some of the postings against minorities make you want to throw up? Or do you just consider it “freedom of speech?”
    Did you see the Hungarian figure skater last night? Of course everyone had their kleenex out when Canadian Joannie Rochette got into 3rd place (Her Mom died unexpectedly after opening ceremonies)

  • justasking

    @Viking;
    This Holocaust Law forces people to, without question, accept an “Historical Event” as explained/presented/defined by a group of people. Then adds insult to injury by threatening incarceration , to cement into place, the power that this group of Fundamentalists weld.
    That’s what the intent of this Law is, no more and no less, so please lets not sugar coat it further.
    This has nothing to do with “Hate Crime Law” and all to do with muzzling people’s right to Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Expression, Freedom of Thought and any other “Freedoms of” you may care to throw in.
    I see no difference between this Holocaust and the one that occurred under the Communist regime, one targeted people because of their Ethnicity, sexual preference and religious beliefs and the other targeted people for their Political beliefs and the way they parted their hair. One event was German led and the other Russian.
    At the end of the day, the result was the same. Innocent people paid the ultimate price, so that a few freaks could realize their dreams.
    ————————————————–
    Now, you ask me how I can live with all these restrictions of Free Speech? Good question.
    Truth be told, I just don’t think about it unless I forced too. Sounds odd; but, it’s true.

  • Bystander

    @Ti (and his think-alike-buddy Bobs…) who wrote:
    “It would be a fair law if there were also a law
    making it illegal for the jews to deny that they
    did not deserve it. Then everyone could at least
    agree.”
    .
    OK you ‘historians’ please explain to this Jew
    exactly WHAT Jewish women and children did
    prior to 1942 that justified marching them
    straight into gas chambers again? Please
    enlighten me. Please explain why I should not be
    worried this will happen again.
    .
    We are not talking “collateral damage” or
    accidental deaths or a cholera epidemic… it was
    a deliberate calculated Plan (by people you
    sympathize with apparently) to kill an entire
    *race* of people (got HALF of us!) by tricking us
    into getting onto trains without a fight.
    .
    How would *you* feel, smart guy, if half of all
    Hungarians were wiped out in cold-
    calculated move within the space of a couple
    years… hmmm? I’ll bet from how angry you get
    about a few Roma waving axes, that you would lose
    your m*therf*cking MIND. So please be a human
    being a give us a break. I understand you are
    sick of hearing about the (Jewish) Holocaust, but
    you are losing your humanity by losing your human
    perspective.
    .
    Try and remember (unlike in the Spanish
    Inquisition where Jews were allowed at least to
    CONVERT to save their lives)… innocent Jews, 6
    million were killed because of their race ONLY,
    given no choice… They could’ve cried out “Don’t
    kill me! I will convert!” and your ‘heroes’ still
    would’ve killed them.

  • justasking

    @ Olga;
    I have to admit, that some of the posting on this site do make me feel uncomfortable. There is Freedom of Speech, then their is Freedom of Speech. Is it because of the “culture” in Canada, a bit reserved, toned down on how we present not only ourselves; but, our opinions? Obviously, it does.
    As for the Hungarian skater “Julia Sebastian” or something like that. Yeah, I saw her, she came in 13th place. Have you noticed that none of the Hungarian Olympic athletes have Hungarian sounding names?
    Did you watch the Hockey game?? It was painful to watch…okay, maybe not that painful. Maybe the Germans should just stick to designing cars and stay off the ice!
    @ Wolfie;
    Could you please go over and offer Russia your serves as a “good luck charm”? :)))

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    I will always be a big defender of free speech, because I believe it is a necessary and fundamental right. Having said that, just because something can be said doesn’t mean it SHOULD be said. The problem is that when people ‘exercise their right to free speech’ without self-moderation too often, they just end up fracturing the community even more, raising the level of fear and alienating themselves. I don’t like the villification of Jews and the denial of the holocaust, but I think sometimes we have to remember that the laws that allow us to say what we want have to be universally applied. Finally, to me, the constant claims of Jewish conspiracies and the tireless need to ‘prove’ the holocaust didn’t happen become a case of ‘crying wolf’ and makes it hard to take other legitimate social concerns seriously.
    -
    Again I’m sorry for using a cliche, but I’m reminded of that “mother’s wisdom” quote: “The reason we have two ears and one mouth is because we should listen twice as much as we speak.”

  • wolfi

    Germany has a law against “hate speech” in general -Holocaust denial and enticing people to lynch justice (which we’ve seen here) is just one special case of that. At the same time German society (just like most Europian societies) is rather open.
    The USA have “freedom of speech” but in reality a strong censorship – anybody remember “Nipplegate” or look at what Apple is doing right now – and the US have a thriving porn industry too, seems strange to me …
    So there’s a lot of hypocricy around …
    @justasking:
    I’m not into spectator sports, don’t know anything about the Olympic Games – didn’t know that you’re a real couch potato, watching a hockey game against the poor Germans …
    PS: Holy smoke, just looked it up, Germany is no 2 with medals – strange …
    PPS: Since we don’t like winter too much, we prefer to go on holiday to the Canary Islands or Florida in November/December.

  • justasking

    @ Wolfie;
    Viking said that you were “on your way to Germany” to watch the game a few days ago.
    Nope, not a couch potato, just support our National Sport.
    PS: I don’t mind the Winter for we have it roughly 7-8 months of the year so we kinda have to deal with it; but, that has nothing to do with enjoying beach vacations. Which I do. Turks and Caicos and Mexico, my faves!

  • olga

    @ all who commented
    Bystander: Trying to make Holocaust Deniers change their mind is expecting criminals to own up to their crimes. Take the largest USA jail and send out a survey of who is innocent in the crime they are serving time for – Based on the expected results, we will be able to conclude that jails are full of innocent people and the Holocaust is a Hoax.
    Do you think that giving the nutcases “air-time” perpetuates the debate? How much time would you want to spend trying to convince people that 9/11 was not just trick photography?
    @justasking – glad to hear that some of the postings make you uncomfortable.
    @Cinaed – Like you, “I will always be a big defender of free speech, because I believe it is a necessary and fundamental right” Me too . I also believe in “artistic freedom” – Except when a defense lawyer is trying to use that excuse when defending a client on “possession of child porn” – In some cases, “free speech” and “artistic merit” take on a whole new revolting meaning

  • wolfi

    @Olga:
    My favorite joke is about the defense lawyer who pleaded for lenience for his client, because he was an orphan.
    You know what he was accused of ?
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    He had b eaten his mother and father to death …

  • Bystander

    @Olga,
    Again I completely agree with you both about the
    fact that free speech should really never be
    curtailed (except for the “fire in crowded
    theater” example)…
    .
    It really IS better to let everyone speak up and
    let the lunatic Deniers and hatemongers make
    themselves look stupid…
    .
    Unfortunately sometimes I can’t resist the urge to
    speak up and attempt to talk sense/humanity into
    them. It really IS a waste of time, and probably
    perpetuates their imagining that someone actually
    cares what an extreme hatemonger would
    think. But the urge to persuade is what brings me
    to sites like this.
    .
    You are correct, these people will never be
    persuaded, but I feel I must TRY since paranoia
    and scapegoating really CAN lead to
    “extermination” as history showed not long ago at
    ALL. I’m sure the idea of “never again” is
    lampooned ferociously at Jobbik meetings but if
    they were in other shoes they might realize that
    exterminations could happen EASILY again in Europe
    as clearly evidenced by some opinions on this
    site!

  • Farkas László

    Laws against holocaust denial had their origin after 1945, when the victorious Allies wanted to maintainin control and order in newly conquered Germany and Austria. Their main concern was a Nazi resurgence which might lead to ongoing active resistance against the Allied occupation. Not only did holocaust denial become “verboten”, but open expression of support for the Nazi regime, it’s leaders, ideology as well as the flaunting of it’s songs and symbols all likewise became illegal. Concerns that the old regime not come back and that hostilities truly end superceded concerns over violation of “freedom of speech”.
    That the civilian German govt took on these restrictions and incorporated them into it’s constitution and laws, was a show of good faith to the world that Nazism was dead in Germany. (Therefore it was OK to buy German made products again and get the “Wirtschaftswunder” underway.)
    These are all factors that were unique to that time and place. To extend the concept to circumstances that are removed from it brings up free speech concerns. Hungary is not a freshly conquered, recent ex Nazi state. (Quiet in the peanut gallery please!)
    But passsing a law denying the possibility of an “Ungarische Wirtschafstwunder”, well hey, now there’s a thought! Got to keep up morale you know…

  • ti

    @bystander. i understand your english probably sucks, but i used a double negative so read it again and this time use your brain.

  • Dave

    A Nap vicce
    A rendőrség rosszul értelmezve a tv-t, sorra kérdezi a lakosságot:
    - Tagadja holokausztot?
    - Már mint, hogy volt?
    - igen.
    - Dehogy, biztos volt! Sőt, lesz is!
    - Na, azért!

  • Bystander

    @ti –
    .
    I DID see the double negative, and funnily enough
    chalked it up to the fact that *you* must be not
    so great at English and made the only presumption
    that makes sense to me… that you made a small
    grammatical error. Yes I really DID see that.
    .
    You said “It would be a fair law if there were
    also a law making it illegal for the jews to deny
    that they did not deserve it. Then everyone could
    at least agree.”

    .
    Then… can you clarify what you ACTUALLY meant?
    Because from the construction of your sentence, it
    is *your* English skills are suspect… But I
    eagerly await your explanation/clarification…
    Please write back!

  • ti

    @bystander
    omg. because it would be a stupid, and pointless law, just like the one which was past. it serves to help no one, not even the jews, because now they will just be reviled even more. and since they are in the mood to pass stupid laws, then why not?
    here’s one that will really confuse you. they should also pass a law that makes it illegal to not cast a jew in a film production. it wont change reality at all, but it might serve to help them alienate themselves just that little bit more, you know, really twist the knife.
    as you can tell, i dont take this too seriously at all, i dont deny the holocast, i realise and understand it happened, but as a rather independent observer, who doesn’t really take sides on this issue, i can say that the jews have always been good at alienating themselves and then becoming confused and upset when they realise people dont like what they have done. they start pulling the anti-semite card, and everything turns into a f@#$%(g mess.

  • justasking

    @ ti;
    Well said! Direct, to the point and funny. Not often do you get that kind of combination.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    as a rather independent observer, who doesn’t really take sides on this issue, i can say that the jews have always been good at alienating themselves and then becoming confused and upset when they realise people dont like what they have done. they start pulling the anti-semite card, and everything turns into a f@#$%(g mess.
    ti at February 25, 2010 6:27 AM
    ===
    @ ti;
    Well said! Direct, to the point and funny. Not often do you get that kind of combination.
    justasking at February 25, 2010 7:34 AM
    —-
    What ‘ti’ is stating above is just typical racial profiling and why are we surprised ‘justasking’ just loves it
    -
    There is a need for people like ‘ti’ and ‘justasking’ to understand the difference when people makes a point due to religion/ethnicity, they do it for a political reason, meaning the Israeli Government screaming ‘anti-Semitism’ on every anti-Israel criticism is a political argument that actual hurts the main part of Jews much more
    Same thing when different militant ‘Muslims’ do stupid announcement, they represent just a few fanatics, not the wide mass of (even possible) Muslims
    -
    ‘ti’ is deliberately playing the blame game by claiming that Jews is some homogeneous group and some individuals using the ‘anti-Semitic Card’ represent Jews, because Jews, in difference to us, White Christians, who are all respected individuals and have 1000s of different churches and religious differences internally and do not look the same, etc
    Just the ‘others’ are a big confusing mess/mass

  • ti

    @ viking
    “when different militant ‘Muslims’ do stupid announcement, they represent just a few fanatics, not the wide mass of (even possible) Muslims”
    that is totally true, i agree with you entirely. not argument whatsoever.
    but you need to see that the crucial difference is that these extremists are NOT the one’s running and representing a country which has been founded purely upon a religious base. Which is what is happening with the jews and isreal.
    “the Israeli Government screaming ‘anti-Semitism’ on every anti-Israel criticism is a political argument that actual hurts the main part of Jews much more”
    The reason that this is a representation of the jews, and not just profiling is because the israeli government was elected by the jews to speak for the jews in a country which was based on their religious belief of judaism. So how can an independent outside observer not “claim that Jews are some homogeneous group and some individuals using the ‘anti-Semitic Card’ do not represent Jews”. obviously they do represent jews, and they represent them on an international scale, and they do so becuse other jews elected and put them there through a democratic vote.
    but you are right, we should make the one exception where if a democratically elected representative of isreal makes a statement, that they do not represent israel and its jew inhabitants, who voted, and put that same official there. quick, better draft a law for that one too while ppl are still making dumb decisions

  • justasking

    @ Viking;
    You do thrive being in an environment of constant chaos, misinformation and misinterpretation don’t you?
    The Israeli Government, from here on known as Jewish Fundamentalists, could give 2 shits about the “main part of Jews”, just like the Muslim Fundamentalist could give 2 shits about the “wide mass Muslims”.
    Whenever you hear Ricsi, Law, Mark or whoever, say anything against the “Jews”, it was always in reference to the “establishment” code for Jewish Fundamentalists and you know this.
    You just take great pride in stirring up the shit, then throwing it on people to discredit them, which then tricks people into viewing them as supposed anti Semites.
    The sad thing is, this same group of people ( Jewish Fundamentalist), have convinced/manipulated “the main part Jews” to see boogie men at every corner.
    This paranoia then leads people to “hear” QUESTIONS about the Holocaust, to mean a DENIAL of the Holocaust. Which we all know could be further from the truth.
    So please, do not lecture me on racial profiling, for I have never done nor will ever do anything like that. You maybe, but not me.

  • Curious George

    @justasking – if you mean the Israeli govt, why not just say so?
    Why use an alternate term “Jewish fundamentalist” where others could mistake (God forbid) that you also want to include Jews (like bystander & others) who are not part of the Israeli govt?
    You wouldn’t want people to “hear” what you’re not saying, do you?

  • wolfi

    It’s typical:
    The right wing loonies go on for pages about “Jews” and everyone who does not agree is “against Hungary” and so on, then there are “The Germans”, “The Slovaks” …
    If someone tries to argue with them, sudenly they reply “I only meant the Israeli government” or this group or whatever – they can’t differentiate, they always have to generalise.
    Once and for all:
    I and many people here like Viking or CG or Olga (I believe I can vouch for them) don’t HATE Hungary and Hungarians – on the contrary I love my wife very much and I really like Hungary and enjoy the contact with my neighbours and acquaintances – I just can’t stand those miserable “foaming at the mouth” jobos (most of them have less connection to today’s Hungary than I) who think they speak for Hungary (just like Jobbik, which are really a small but loud minority) …

  • ti

    @ viking
    also, jews aren’t a race. so how can they be racially profiled?
    jews are ‘racially’ more arab than anything, they just branched off a while back to follow the jewish religion, which you could class as ‘ethnicity’ perhaps, but even that is broad because it would still lump in a large group of arabs that don’t follow judaism.
    im going to leave this largely open and unresolved, so no doubt ppl will disagree that jews are not a race. but just wanted to point out that i never racially profiled anyone because i simply don’t consider jews to be their own race.
    @curiousgeorge
    if bystander is a jew, ergo, that is the religion he believes and follows, then it is only logical to say that in his ‘homeland’ israel the beliefs of its leaders are the same as his, these beliefs also lay the foundation for israels foreign policy. so isnt it understandable that if this is the case then the israeli government represents all jews internationally, because their actions are not only those of a nation but also of a people connected by a common belief?
    so, indavertantly all jews are a part of the israeli government because that government is founded on the jewish belief, and as much as they may honestly (claim to) disagree with the actions of israels government the fact remains that to the rest of the world isreal is the voice of judaism. If the jews want to truly change negative perceptions of them they need to rethink who they elect, and how those elected will represent them.

  • Curious George

    @ti – So many contradictions in your post, not sure where to begin.
    “Jews are not a race “- well bystander is a non- practising American Jew (ancestry Hungarian – I believe his family went to the US long before Trianon). He has said he doesn’t have any family or links to Israel (or Hungary), and he considers America his home. So how do you conclude that the Israeli govt reflect his beliefs, unless you were racially profiling him? You even go to the extent of calling Israel his “homeland”.
    As someone who has a Jewish partner (from Israel, no less), I have interacted with several Jews (& Israelis) who rail against what the Israeli govt does, and especially for not concluding a peace deal with the Palestinians. Just because you see all Jews as part of the Israeli govt doesn’t mean that the rest of the world sees them that way. Most people, where I come from, certainly don’t.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    ti: I agree with you that the rather ‘fluid’ definition of Jewishness is a real problem. As I have said before, really, in terms of this forum, it just means ‘other’, so that as you say, anyone who disagrees must be Jewish. However, I can’t help but think that you are doing something very similar, even if in another direction. For you to say that the current government of Israel is representative of Jewish people generally is just as off the mark as anything else. …or did I misunderstand?
    -
    also, as to the isolation of Jews, it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Historically, they have been ostracised by others just as much as they have isolated themselves, and I think that from their perspective, isolation was the only way they could preserve their culture.In any case, there is no justification for a systematic plan to exterminate an entire ethnic group. (the Nazis saw Jews as an ethnic group whether you do or not)and it’s no surprise that they hold on to that experience, not unlike Hungarians remembering Trianon.
    -
    For the record, I am absoltely DISGUSTED with the behaviour of the Israeli govt in forging passports (including Au now).Was it worth it for the sake of killing one guy? I think not.I hope they are held to account for it. …I’m not going to harrass CG or Bystander about it though, it’s not their fault.

  • Curious George

    @Cinead – perhaps it is time for the countries affected &/or the EU to start imposing visa requirements for all Israeli passport holders. Considering that many Israeli’s legitimately have dual citizenships, it probably wouldn’t stop all travel, but it would send a much stronger message to the Israeli govt than mere condemning statements.
    And since, it is an issue about authenticity of travel documents, and all indicators seem to point towards Israel, no one can complain that such a measure is anti-semitic, but rather one of ensuring national security.
    ps. I’d be really surprised if ti held me accountable for that.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    CG: I can’t speak for the country’s affected, but it won’t surprise me if Australia responds with visa restrictions on Israel. The Au government is already in a programme of reviewing visa restrictions to many countries, and judging by the comments made by KRudd and Steve Smith (“that is not the action of a friend”), this won’t be the last we hear.
    -
    my point regards ti, was that you can’t always blame people for the actions of their government. Referring to you and the current passport issue was just an example.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Goddammit…my grammar is shit lately. I’m ashamed of myself. COUNTRIES, not COUNTRY’S. BAH!

  • http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,785907,00.html BIG JIM IS CURIOUS

    @ti
    It would be a fair law if there were also a law making it illegal for the jews to deny that they did not deserve it. Then everyone could at least agree.
    You said a mouthful but you need to clarify it. Did they deserve it by murdering millions before they got some of it back?
    MH HEADLINE: VILÁGSZERTE SZÁZMILLIÓ EMBERT GYILKOLTAK LE A KOMMUNIZMUS NEVÉBEN
    Care to name some of the top Communists responsible for the death of all these people?
    Ever hear of Samuely?
    Ever hear of Kohn?
    Ever hear of Rákosi?

  • Géza

    I don’t care what people have to say about any subject! I care about freedom of speech…!
    EU dictarorship is coming to the surface more and more…..that’s where this law originated…
    I am waiting for the laws where you can not speak out against foreigners, moslims, massimmigration, the EU ect.
    The end of free speech is very near and the hungarians could enjoy it since 1989, to give it away because of the EUssr…

  • olga

    @ all
    Re: ti’s comment: “so, indavertantly all jews are a part of the israeli government because that government is founded on the jewish belief, and as much as they may honestly (claim to) disagree with the actions of israels government the fact remains that to the rest of the world isreal is the voice of judaism. ” etc
    I am making a list of people I should hate and I don’t want to miss any race or religion
    The Jewsish people top the list. Can I substitute “Jews” for Muslim, “Israel” for Arab countries etc, and hate all Muslims?
    The killing of one man in Dubai is horrible – are suicide bombers worse or better? What about Daniel Pearl an American Jewish journalist Daniel Pearl? Kidnapped, tortured, murdered by Al Quaeda.
    Does his murder count or bad example because he was Jewish? Maybe the suicide bombers’ victims and the 9/11 victims still count so all Muslims are to blame.
    What about Catholics? Should I hate them? I no longer consider myself Catholic so I am ok, but others who do should be held responsible for all those children molested by priests. Let’s blame the Vatican, the Pope and Mother Theresa (must be a reason)
    Jan Slota said something about wanting to destroy Budapest – I thought he was a stark raving lunatic with leadership qualities in Al Quaeda had he been born under different circumstances. But like all evil humans , he has at least one redeeming quality. He hates the Roma. #4 on my list
    I need 7 groups – one for each day of the week. Help!

  • Attila

    “The denial of the Holocaust will be punishable by law under a bill passed by Parliament on Monday afternoon.”
    Many EU nations(Germany,Austria etc) have laws like this so I’m not surprised that Hungary would eventually introduce it.
    I find it pathetic of the parliament to reject Fidezs motion so to not allow communist from denying they had done nothing wrong to the Hungarian people. This alone convinces me that the government is corrupt as hell or just plain fucking stupid (excuse my language) because clearly they don’t care about victims of the communist regime and would rather say that it never happen at all.
    Makes me want to start a revolution…..

  • olga

    @ Attila
    I completely agree and it makes no sense except to
    a. piss people off
    b. give the message that Communist victims are simply not as important as Holocaust victims
    c. make it even worse for Holocaust victims and resent them even more since it implies their lives were somehow “more important”
    So why would Parliament do something “just plain fucking stupid ” before an election?
    I understand that politicians would give their soul for votes but this decision would go against the grain of every eligible voter – so it makes no sense.
    Please be the Devil’s advocate and give me one reason why this Motion was not passed. (other than f… stupid)

  • Bystander

    @ti…
    I’m going to go a little easy on you because it
    appears you need to get up to speed on some
    issues… I agree with how most of the other
    posters responded to you but let me do a little
    experiment so you can see more clearly the total
    absurdity of your statements — I am going to
    paste your comments below but substitute the word
    “Hungarian” for Jew and maybe you will see how
    ridiculous your comments were. Let’s try, shall
    we?
    “if TI is HUNGARIAN, ergo, that is the
    nationality he believes and follows, then it is
    only logical to say that in his ‘homeland’ HUNGARY
    the beliefs of its leaders are the same as his,
    these beliefs also lay the foundation for
    HUNGARY’S foreign policy.
    so isnt it
    understandable that if this is the case then the
    HUNGARIAN government represents all HUNGARIANS
    internationally
    , because their actions are not
    only those of a nation but also of a people
    connected by a common belief?
    so, indavertantly all HUNGARIANS are a part of
    the HUNGARIAN government because that government
    is founded on the HUNGARIAN belief,
    and as
    much as they may honestly (claim to) disagree with
    the actions of HUNGARY’S government the fact
    remains that to the rest of the world HUNGARY is
    the voice of HUNGARIANS…”

    .
    Now is it just me, or does it sound like you are
    mentally challenged? Or please explain how the
    analogy/metaphor is inaccurate. Thanks in
    advance!

  • Bystander

    and…
    to repeat again, I completely agree with Olga that
    laws inhibiting free speech are a BAD IDEA!

  • justasking

    @ George;
    No, I said it the way I wanted to say it, no more no less, nothing hidden there. So if you want to look for a more deeper sinister meaning, fly at er’ your going to anyhow.
    Besides, I would hardly consider Bystander a Jewish Fundamentalist, passionate about defending his religion and events in it’s history yes…doing it on the backs of other, that’s not the impression I get of him.
    But, according to you, anything is possible.

  • http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/war_propaganda.htm Bali cover up

    @ Cinaed
    Israel controls Australia, who are the people of Israel? Who are the people behind the IMF ? Who are the people behind the Australian media “Media prostitutes”? why can’t you see the obvious?
    Open your mind from ignorance.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Here we go again.

  • Pávaszem

    The ‘holocaust’ is a con game, it’s a hoax. Madoff’s gig was peanuts, AIG is peanuts and the Lehman Brothers were small time crooks compared to the peddlers of the SHOA BUSINESS… Just to give you an idea how _their sausage is made here is a lovely little stomach turning piece from Gawker: “Herman Rosenblat is the Holocaust survivor whose Oprah-endorsed story of meeting his wife while in a concentration camp turned out to be fake… Speaking of the ghostwriter, perhaps you were wondering how much ghostwriters get paid these days? Well, to write fake Holocaust memoirs, they apparently get…” http://bit.ly/7GrJNf What’s in it for Mesterházy though besides a fat paycheck transferred monthly to an off shore bank account? He’s obviously trying to drive as many people as possible away from Fidesz to Jobbik. Guess why. While the Zionist party’s paradegoy is trying to create the illusion that ‘Jews’ have nothing to do with the whole circus/outrage. Grotesquely stilted as usual.

  • Pávaszem

    @Cináed: “It’s pretty clear to me that the holocaust did happen” If it’s so clear why do its peddlers need long prison sentences to convince people? Historians BTW will also go to prison if they discover anything unorthodox. So much for the ‘accepted record’ Ván keeps whining about. If the educational and media juggernaut ain’t enough, the war on Catholic education ain’t enough, all the psychological terror ain’t enough to steamrolling humanity into submission it is perhaps time to come up with a new bloodsucking scheme — before another big time pogrom occurs…

  • Pávaszem

    @Olga: “why FIDESZ abstained” Because they were ordered to abstain, Blondie… A propos holocaust, how do you feel about Martin Kramer’s Endlösung speech at the Herzliya Conference? “HARVARD FELLOW CALLS FOR GENOCIDAL MEASURE TO CURB PALESTINIAN BIRTHS… a proposal that appears to meet the international legal definition of a call for genocide…” http://bit.ly/d3UFSH A real gentlemensh and a scholar, yes? Don’t forget: he is the victim! You’ll love the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaJXFbH4McM

  • ti

    @bystander
    awesome, thats a fantastic transposition argument. too bad you swapped out a religious group with a NATIONALITY. if my initial statement had used israeli in place of jew then you would be right, and i would agree it is a really bad generalisation that is clearly ignorant. unfortunately for you i did’t make that statement so you basically wasted your time arguing against something i never even proposed.
    i do see what you are trying to say though, because unlike americans i have been educated to look at an argument from multiple perspectives. a major downfall of the american education system, don’t worry though it’s not your fault and i won’t blame you for that.
    you see, the reason jews and the goverment of isreal can be so closely linked is because the government is jewish run, and they always push their religious agenda in foreign policy, or basically any policy. also, followers of the jewish faith (over 70% of the israeli population) voted the leaders into power, so of course not all israelis agree with the goverment decisions, just like many hungarians do not agree with their governments decisions. but surely you can see how it can be PERCIEVED that all jews are supporters of israli policy, as its it PERCEIVED to be predominantly jewish driven.
    I am not trying to push any hatered or anything, and i can see you are getting upset, but really I am just trying to inform you of why jews as a group are affected by israels actions, even if they dont agree

  • olga

    @ Pavaszem:
    Re: “@Olga: “why FIDESZ abstained” Because they were ordered to abstain, Blondie…”
    Aha!! They were ordered. I should have known.
    No, I am not going to ask who “ordered” them to abstain or what proof you have because that would mean you’d actually have to come up with a straight answer. Not exactly your MO.
    BTW, this is not specific to this thread but this one is as good as any other.
    There are only two minorities that are actually represented in Hungary. Jewish people and the Roma.
    Just exactly how would you solve these problems ?
    Try not to be vague, ambiguous , talk in riddles and use phrases like ” you would be surprised if I told you”. Serves no purpose plus I don’t want to be surprised, I just want to read your direct answer.
    I am sure you “friends” would want to know too. I take that back – I am not sure. I think they are happy just reading all that venom and hate . Doesn’t tak much to make them happy.
    However, not one to avoid a challange, I just know you have “The Final Solution” – oh, I am sorry, that phrase has been used. I am sure you will think of something equally catchy. (Shows how much confidence I have in you)

  • justasking

    @ Olga;
    I’ve been thinking about what Pava said about the point being made, not in Hungary.
    I think what he meant, was that you would be surprised about a “person” making a point who does not actually live in Hungary. Do you know what I mean? Talking pro-Hungary, yet living elsewhere. He obviously knows something about some of the people on this site that we just assume.
    Don’t quote me, I’m just guessing that’s what he meant.

  • Curious George

    @justasking – Ma’am, you’re doing a heck’uva job interpreting for Pava, Elle, Law, & Mark etc. Well done!
    By the powers vested in me, I hereby declare you The Jobbo-Interpreter. Now go forth, and clear that mud for us!

  • justasking

    @ George;
    By the powers vested in me, I hear by declare that you kiss my ass!
    Now go forth and pucker up!
    PS: Sir, maybe you’ll get a ” heck of a job” salute as well. Well done on using that chap lip balm!

  • http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,785907,00.html BIG JIM WANTS TO KNOW

    The holocaust is such a nice get out of jail free card. You catch a Jew, say Polanski, raping a child and the first thing we hear about is that he is a holocaust survivor.
    Was Madoff a holocaust survivor? Maybe he was not because if he were he would be free instead of locked up. Oh yes, he also ripped off some “holocaust survivors” and that is why he is a bad boy. Somebody please explain to BIG JIM what a “holocaust survivor” is. If you survived, how could you be a holocaust victim?
    Is Rakosi a holocaust survivor?
    Is Bauer a holocaust survivor?
    Is Apro a holocaust survivor?
    It is so confusing that it is best to put people in jail for even thinking of asking questions. Just ask Lendvai and she tells you all you need to know or else…
    One does not have to agree but easy to understand why the MSZP did not want to include victims of Communist terror in their denial law. How do you claim your get out of jail free holocaust card if you were also a Communist murderer of innocents? That would be difficult. No?

  • http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,785907,00.html BIG JIM WANTS TO KNOW

    Why did it take 26 (and counting) Jews with all those different passports to murder one Palestinian?

  • wolfi

    @Big Jim:
    Didn’t you read my posting ?
    This murderer was probably taken like the one in Agatha Christie’s Orient Express …
    If you don’t know about it – read it or watch the film …

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    “If you survived, how could you be a holocaust victim?”
    -
    So going by this logic, does that mean we will never hear about Hungary being a victim again? Dumbass, you don’t have to die from something to be a victim.

  • wolfi

    @justasking:
    You shouldn’t read too much of pavian’s vomit – his sickness might be contagious

  • http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,785907,00.html BIG JIM WANTS TO KNOW

    Maybe I should have put it in simple terms for the simpletons who have a hard time understanding my question. Let us focus on only one person, a Jew, a horrible, sadistic mass murderer Jew such as Rakosi. Do Rakosi and other monsters such as him qualify for the grand title of holocaust survivor and should we regard him as a victim or as cold-blooded mass murderer?
    What is the difference between a holo-victim and a holo-monster?

  • olga

    @ Justasking
    Re: “I think what he meant etc” – that was really my point. You should not have to interpret if his posting was clear.
    My work background amongst other depressing social issues included “prevention of child abuse” When the Catholic Church scandal became public, I was involved with policy re “future safeguards” My role was at a pretty low level,but I had to be knowledgeable about the issues.I am writing this only to show that I have nothing against the Church; just happen to have a working knowledge of facts.
    Anyway, attending endless long meetings with experts on the subject, of course blame was never attached to “Priests” or “the Church. The people responsible were held accountable. I heard public criticism (professionals did not concur) that it was an “unnatural state” to be celibate , and that led to the problems.- that’s garbage.
    People don’t molest children because they are Catholic or because they are Priests – they were child molesters – period. They may have joined the priesthood or chose another profession that gave them access to kids but that had noting to do with religion or the profession
    Think of all the dedicated Priests world wide. Should they all be responsible for each pedophile? If not, then why hold Jewish people responsible for the “Rakosis” of this world.
    BTW, just because I left the Church doesn’t mean
    I don’t respect others who find great comfort in
    religion provided it does not involve hating others who think different

  • olga

    @ Big Jim
    Hi, how is Mark doing? please say hi to him for me.
    I see you completed the training period and will join this website for the time being.
    Don’t forget to post something positive about Pavaszem – part of the job . If you run out of names for “evil Jews”, he will have names at his fingertip. Then you could concentrate on the Roma
    Remember that if you post 6 half-truths they become 3 “Truths”
    No need to thank me.

  • Bystander

    Let’s play a game and see how bad “Little Jim” loses
    his mind if NO one were to respond, ever, to his
    dumbass attempts at provocation…
    .
    Who’s with me? I think it could be a fun
    experiment!

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    but you need to see that the crucial difference is that these extremists are NOT the one’s running and representing a country which has been founded purely upon a religious base. Which is what is happening with the jews and isreal.
    ..
    The reason that this is a representation of the jews, and not just profiling is because the israeli government was elected by the jews to speak for the jews in a country which was based on their religious belief of judaism
    ti at February 25, 2010 8:43 AM
    —-
    The Israeli Government can only be accused of speaking on behalf of the Jewish State of Israel, in a similar way the Hungarian President can only be accused of speaking for the Republic of Hungary, *even* if both (the Israeli Government and the Hungarian President) claim that they speak for all Jews/Hungarians, regardless where they live
    -
    Or do you claim that the Islamic Republic of Iran, which is a Islamic republic (a “theocratic republic” a much more religious connection between state and religion, than Israel is Jewish), also speaks for all Muslims in the world?
    -
    The Holy See (commonly known as the Vatican or Vatican City) is another of these theocratic States, so the Pope speaks for all Christians, right?
    .
    But who speaks then for all atheists?
    Maybe I should join the church, but hey the Pope does not speak for the Protestant, Baptist, Pentecostal and all other different congregations that claim to be ‘Christian’
    But we are ‘White Folks’ so we can be different, right?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    Whenever you hear Ricsi, Law, Mark or whoever, say anything against the “Jews”, it was always in reference to the “establishment” code for Jewish Fundamentalists and you know this.

    So please, do not lecture me on racial profiling, for I have never done nor will ever do anything like that. You maybe, but not me.
    justasking at February 25, 2010 9:18 AM
    —-
    1) No, I do not “know” that, then I read what I see
    ‘Racial profiling’ (also in the sense of ‘ethnic profiling’) is *exactly* this
    To make a general claim that can be targeted on a ‘group’ and then in defence state ‘oh, I just meant Mr X and Miss Y’
    You should say what you mean and I really think that “Ricsi, Law, Mark” knows *exactly* what they mean. They are not stupid, how you want us to believe
    -
    2) Maybe not exactly to Jews, but you have no problem believing unsubstantiated claims that Roma women hurt their unborn babies
    Why do you have no problem believing that?
    Because you do not think Roma women can have your feelings for an unborn baby, because Roma women are just that different from us ‘White Folks’, right?

  • justasking

    @ Bystander;
    Like, how old are you? Seriously, I could almost hear your pathetic giggles through my monitor as you submitted that post.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    What’s in it for Mesterházy though besides a fat paycheck transferred monthly to an off shore bank account? He’s obviously trying to drive as many people as possible away from Fidesz to Jobbik. Guess why. While the Zionist party’s paradegoy is trying to create the illusion that ‘Jews’ have nothing to do with the whole circus/outrage. Grotesquely stilted as usual.
    Pávaszem at February 25, 2010 8:12 PM

    Hhmm, let us see here:
    * Mesterházy, PM-candidate for MSZP wants to drive people from Fidesz to Jobbik
    .
    Yes, if Mesterházy succeeds Jobbik will be bigger in the next Parliament than MSZP, which would be the *ultimate* proof that this conspiracy theory is correct
    -
    Pav is playing all combinations before the Election, so he can claim a profit afterwards
    .
    Yes, Pav is clearly the guy with the brains on this site

  • justasking

    @ Viking;
    What is your problem? You might hate the fact that you are white and feel the need to apologize for it; but, I don’t.
    I never said that I believed Molnar’s claim and I didn’t say that I don’t believe Molnar’s claim. I believe that desperate people will do desperate things, no matter their ethnicity.
    So please keep you little jab about the Roma women and your attempt to paint me as a racist.

  • olga

    @ justasking
    I agree with your comment re: “I believe that desperate people will do desperate things, no matter their ethnicity”
    There is no proof that these women did what they were accused of doing. That was the problem with the statement in the first place.
    Maybe you and I would both steal if our kids were hungry and they needed food. But until we are caught stealing we are not guilty of theft.

  • Attila

    its so nice when things go off topic :)

  • justasking

    @ Olga;
    You darn right I’d steal. As a matter of fact, there is very little if anything I would not do for my babies. What normal parent would not claim the same?

  • Curious George

    @Olga, justasking – Would you beg instead of stealing? I’m just curious, because I often see women begging (sometimes with a kid) when I go into town. What do you think? Should they beg, or should they resort to stealing if their kid was hungry? This is a real question.
    I would really hate to imagine my mom begging if she was in that plight.

  • wolfi

    About begging:
    When we were in Germany this January there were several women begging, one or two with small children, and men playing (horrible!) music all over town …
    My wife overheard some of them talking – it was Hungarian and they probably came from Romania.
    That week I saw a report on German TV that they come in clans and some of these women “rent” other women’s babies to make an impression on their “customers” …
    Some time ago in another German town I saw a small group of those beggars getting into an old Mercedes, but couldn’t see the livence plate.
    So for them it’s a kind of profession, there might even be schools where you learn, I’m quite sure it’s not poverty that moves them …

  • justasking

    @ George;
    Begging vs stealing.
    I can see a man would find stealing more appropriate for somehow it can be perceived as a masculine thing to do. “Only a man with balls would attempt to steal” kind of mentality.
    Begging on the other hand, gives the impression of a weak person, a wimp, someone with no pride.
    Does it really matter what kind of beating your ego has to tolerate to ensure that your child does not go hungry, go without needed medicine or to keep them warm? I put my children first, above myself. I’m sure your Mom does the same.

  • olga

    @ Curious George
    I would be willing to beg borrow and steal for my kids (probably.) Don’t forget these women were brought up with begging as the norm – for me it’s pretty hard to think of “begging” to be a way of life for me
    I was actually trying to demonstrate that “stealing” is a crime but no one ought to be accused of a crime without proof. Substitute “stealing” with any other crime.
    BTW, Toronto is full of homeless people and beggars. Minus kids.
    I don’t believe Hungary has the luxury (funds) to apprehend Roma kids when they see them begging – it would mean placing them in available foster homes at the taxpayers’ expense.
    If anyone was seen begging with a child like in Europe, my guess is the situation would last 10 minutes before the child was picked up by the cops and handed over to Children’s Aid Society.

  • Elle

    @justasking
    ‘This isn’t bad news, it’s sad news.’
    Hello, Zsuzsa. Thanks for your agile defence of me. It was cosy to come back to. I shall be good in future, to spare you more hassle: I’ll avoid reading the known prats, to make sure I keep my promise.
    On the current topic: There’s probably no need to worry. This was a contemptible little performance that did the Socialists no good at all. Sólyom will send the vote outcome (tee hee: the village idiots are calling it ‘this law’!) back to Parliament, of which the composition will by then be very different. He can hardly do otherwise, given the bloc abstention of FIDĖSZ. Not a bad tactical move, that: it made abundantly clear that a substantial proportion of parliamentarians denies the propriety of the proposal that was put to vote. After all, the Constitutional Court has already ruled unconstitutional a previous effort along these lines. (On second thoughts, I wonder if the Constitutional Court’s existing decision on this ‘denial’ nonsense still stands? After all, what has changed?)
    @BIG JIM IS CURIOUS
    ‘Is Lenvai a Rákosi clone?’
    No: she is slightly uglier.

  • justasking

    @ Elle;
    If what you say is true about this “Law”, you can imagine how happy and relieved that makes me.
    Now, as for avoiding the “prats” DO NOT and keep responding in kind.
    Hassle, smash-ell, makes life interesting.
    Z

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    I never said that I believed Molnar’s claim and I didn’t say that I don’t believe Molnar’s claim
    justasking at February 26, 2010 6:56 PM

    Not correct. Let us check some statements made in the threads:
    -
    http://www.politics.hu/20091005/mayor-embroiled-in-furor-over-roma-claim-unrepentant-vows-to-sue
    ===
    I agree witth Elle. As well who in their right mind would commit possible political suicide on just here say? Nobody, so obviously there is some type of evidence to support this mans claim.
    justasking at October 7, 2009 4:11 PM
    ==
    Again, here you have a TV company, displaying an article, for all to see, supporting the claim by Molnar.
    justasking at January 14, 2010 11:06 PM

    Continued into next post because Erik does not allow 2 links in one post

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    Continued

    http://www.politics.hu/20090909/fidesz-under-pressure-over-remarks-about-unborn-roma-children
    -
    Is it because there maybe some truth to what this man is saying? Now really, why would Molnar make this up knowing that it would be political suicide?
    Is it possible that there are people of any nationality/faith, that are so evil/sick, that would consider this, a possible area to exploit?
    Think of it, does it not just send shivers up your spine to think that people would actually consider this as an option?
    justasking at September 14, 2009 7:13 AM

    Remember Molnar said very clearly
    “Roma women hurt their unborn children”
    Molnar did *not* say:
    ‘Some women in this area hurt their unborn children”
    .
    That is Racial Profiling, and you chose to believe it, as the other stuff Molnar said about Jews also (do not ask me to repeat it, it is out there on the same threads as above)

  • olga

    @ Viking and justasking
    I think Mr. Molnar (who is btw exempt from libel )and his allegations take a backseat to the real issues
    I am more concerned about the children. Any statistics concerning babies born to Roma women vs. Hungarian women who are also poor? Poverty means less pre-natal care, poor nutrition and irregular check-ups. Not the formula for giving birth to healthy babies.
    Are there any safeguards in place to take a baby away from his/her Mother if the doctor feels the baby is at risk after birth? Regardless of the race, colour religion or political leanings of the Mother?
    Just watched a work related documentary on our Native Children being brought up on certain reserves in horrific conditions. Their circumstances must equal to the worst Roma children’s circumstances in Hungary. They don’t have a chance of a normal life.
    Canadians have no reason to feel smug that “our children are not facing the same hardships as the Roma children” because plenty of them do
    We simply don’t have Mr. Molnars around to add insult to injury. Either way, the kids are the ones who suffer.
    I guess Children’s issues, whether Roma or Hungarian children living in poverty are not popular election issues; too busy equating Rakosi with Lendvai.
    There must be plenty of evidence that she is also directly responsible for torturing and killing masses of innocent people. Otherwise, it would be horribly unjust to the Rakosi victims’ memories to equate them with her victims.

  • justasking

    @ Viking;
    It’s a pity that you are not as smart as you think you are. Unfortunately, the only thing that, on a regular basis, you do seem to prove is how truly ignorant you are.
    Judging by the ” direct quotes” that you painstakingly gathered, I assume that you had a physical response upon reading my post? Thought so.
    Now lets begin.
    As far as I can tell, the only thing that you managed to “prove”, is my position that people would not make such inflammatory remarks/claims unless they have an “ace in the hole”
    Further more, you are accusing me of “racial profiling” the Roma community, yet you use a quote of mine that specifically states “possible that there are people of ANY NATIONALITY/FAITH, that are so evil/sick…” So again, where is this elusive racial profiling that you claim that I do???
    As for your little veiled threat of “do not ask me to repeat it” No your right, I’m not asking, I TELLING you to do it.
    I have been quite vocal of my opinion of Jewish Fundamentalist who favour messianic tendencies.
    So what is your point, do you think that I was going to deny my position? Think again.
    I repeat ” I never said that I believe Molnar’s claim and I never said that I don’t believe Molnar’s claim”
    Now, if you will excuse me, I’m off to watch the hockey game where Canada is leading the Slovaks 2-0. Wha Who!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    As far as I can tell, the only thing that you managed to “prove”, is my position that people would not make such inflammatory remarks/claims unless they have an “ace in the hole”
    justasking at February 27, 2010 4:30 AM

    And exactly that is the proof again
    Here we have a Mayor that *is* doing racial profiling by claiming Roma women are doing these things
    He claims that ‘Roma women’ do this, not ‘some poor women’
    He has never ever produced any proof to his claim
    No one has been able to prove that that region has more children with those symptoms than the average
    No one has been able to prove that ‘Roma women’, just being ‘Roma women’ and therefore representing the Roma community, would be more eager than any ‘other kind of women’ to hurt their children unborn or born
    .
    But ‘justasking’ has the “position that people would not make such inflammatory remarks/claims unless they have an ‘ace in the hole’”, so the guy, who undoubtedly is using racial profiling must be correct
    By supporting a person claiming something, based on racial profiling, assuming he must be correct, is that not supporting the use of racial profiling?
    .
    ‘justasking’ normal debate-style is to support any one who makes a claim based on racial profiling, let it be Roma or Jews and then claim ‘No I did not support any one’
    Not true, just try to find ‘justasking’s’ posts where Molnar is stated to be untrue in his statement of ‘Roma women’
    The overall impression is that ‘justasking’ supports Molnar’s claim

  • Dave

    I look at it as a big circus a big parade whatever metaphor you want to call it, when your born in to this world you’re given a ticket to the freak show, when your born in America your given a front row seat.

  • thats mr. president to you

    thats because friends and family of the star performers always get the best seats.

  • Elle

    I wonder if one can fake stupidity as profound as Viking’s? He has just learnt the term ‘racial profiling’, and thinks it’s got to be a winner every time, everywhere. Justasking is positively saintly for her preparedness to debate this asshole.

  • Anonymous

    I wonder if one can fake stupidity as profound as Viking’s?
    Elle at February 27, 2010 11:58 AM
    Apparently, in Hungary, 10 million people can fake it.
    …………oh, they weren’t faking!
    Now, I’m not saying Hungarians are stupid, and I’m not saying Hungarians are not stupid. But there must be some evidence otherwise I wouldn’t have said it.
    Huh, ……I dunno, maybe I need an interpreter.

  • justasking

    @ Viking;
    If you would spend less time looking for meanings between meanings on top of meanings in my posts, you might actually understand what I am writing.
    I am not one to sugar-coat where I stand and what my opinions may be.
    As for your comment about the impressions that my posts invoke, that’s subjective. It has nothing to do with the post content themselves per say and all to do with the readers feelings/opinions towards the subject at hand and towards the writer
    Did it ever occur to you, we may have been looking at Molnar’s statements from different perspectives, just based on our sex?
    Any woman who has felt a child grow in her body, understands when I say that I find it incomprehensible how any woman, irregardless of ethnicity, could willingly commit such an act of pure evil. That, to harm the unborn child.
    You see, I care if children are being harmed and I have yet to hear you express such concerns. So again, I make my stand….I don’t know what to believe.

  • justasking

    @ Anonymous;
    Instead of an interpreter, may I suggest a lobotomy?
    @ Elle;
    Did you get the post that I addressed to you about our meeting up?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    So again, I make my stand….I don’t know what to believe.
    justasking at February 27, 2010 7:33 PM

    Well, I have no problem believing that social/biological parents of both sexes hurt ‘their’ children deliberately, regardless they are born or still unborn
    About 10-12 years ago it was popular (maybe still is?) for Germans to travel 1-2 km over the border into Czech Republic and pay double money to fuck a pregnant whore, best price was for the whores that were 7-8 months pregnant
    Many of these whores were trafficked in from Moldavia, Albania and Bulgaria. The children that were actually born were left by its own and had to be picked up by the Czech authorities
    Does anyone think that these children grew up as the brightest in their class?
    Many were probably damaged by the physical abuse and the drugs used by the women
    -
    Are/were these women hurting their unborn children due to they belonged some ethnic group?
    Of course Roma women were among these women, as they in Hungary make up the biggest part of the prostitutes (prostitution in Hungary is legal)
    I have not heard similar stories in Hungary, but it can be a difference in Customer preferences also
    -
    Also see ‘olga’s’ comment at February 27, 2010 2:58 AM, similar situations happens all over the world in similar social settings – a total devastated community that cannot manage to handle their own situation
    To claim an ethnic group as such would do this for fun, what would you call that?
    ‘White Folks’ do this also, even Swedes

  • http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,785907,00.html BIG JIM IS CURIOUS

    @Elle
    ‘Is Lenvai a Rákosi clone?’
    No: she is slightly uglier.

    I am not sure. Shave Lendvai’s hair and they could pass for identical twins.

    Still do not know why it took 26+ heroic Jews to murder one Palestinian.

    Is it a holo-crime to call Lendvai butt ugly?

    @Olga
    Mark says hi and wants to know if Herenyi and Barandy are correct in claiming that the victims of Communism had it coming.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    @ Viking;
    It’s a pity that you are not as smart as you think you are. Unfortunately, the only thing that, on a regular basis, you do seem to prove is how truly ignorant you are.
    justasking at February 27, 2010 4:30 AM
    ===
    I wonder if one can fake stupidity as profound as Viking’s?
    Elle at February 27, 2010 11:58 AM

    Well, given the fact that you always seem to be able to ‘interpret’ our resident racists (Law/Mark/Ricsi and their other aliases) into something totally different from what ever they write, like;
    * ‘jew/zion-nazi’ does not mean Jews in general, no that is supposed to mean the ‘Israeli Government’ or specific historical persons that themselves normally had denounced Judaism before
    * ‘gypsy/cigany’ does not mean Roma in general, just the poor and socially outcast in segregated villages close to the Ukrainian border
    -
    So people have to chose between posters like me, the idiot who I think people understand what I am claiming, or our very clever and intelligent resident racists (Law/Mark/Ricsi and their other aliases) with their special ‘Oracles’ (‘justasking’ and ‘elle/sophie’) who ‘interpret’ Mark and his kind God-like scribble into something understandable, and of course definitely *not* racist, statements
    .
    Or, our very clever and intelligent resident racists (Law/Mark/Ricsi and their other aliases) actually means what they are writing?
    Will we ever see ‘justasking’ and ‘elle/sophie’ admit that?

  • justasking

    @ Viking;
    Look, we are all guilty of picking peoples posts apart, especially from those individuals that we do not see eye to eye with or ones that tend to sit on our last nerve. We also conveniently, make no comment, when one of the “team members” post something we may not necessarily fully agree with.
    There are some on this site,that will deliberately twist and misrepresent posts, because they either strongly object to the contents, to the author, or both.
    I personally, have become desensitized to the terms “Nazi, fascist, racist and anti-Semite, for they are not only misused, but overused, everywhere in life. I notice that it usually gets thrown in for effect, in an attempt to throw the other guy off.
    I have never seen the 2 quotes that you provided, nor do I know who wrote them; but, I’m sure that I could hazard a guess. The way I read it, the author was stating his/her position that there are people from all walks of life that are pure evil. Not the entire “group of people” just some of them, which is true. Just like some Germans were Nazi’s and some were not. The problem is, that some nationalities/groups of people are allowed to be talked about in certain ways and others not, for that is when the name calling begins.
    So, do I actually believe that Mark, Ricsi and Law mean what they are writing…yes, I do. Do I think that they get a rough deal by being deliberately misquoted…yes, I do.
    So there you go my little Swede, ask and you shall receive.:))

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8zHXTMkMzc justbitching

    Christ,
    I dont know anymore what’s going on!
    I can’t tell wheather I wrote the thing or read the thing, or maybe both?
    On the other hand I just LOVE Elle’s comments!!! Especially when she speaks in LATIN!!! It’s justsosexy!!!
    I think its fair and just to smash the heads of little jewish kids as a revenge for the Rothchildren getting so damn rich! Isnt it?
    I think its kosher to kill the piano teacher whose mother was jewish as a payment for Bela Lugosi Kuhn’s crimes during the Tnacskoztarsasag Red TERROR in 191919.
    I cannot find my last post? Maybe i filed it with the recipes? is there any other clueless person out their in Canada who can help me?
    Law, are you canadian? What about you muszka kurva?

  • justasking

    Ah, your back.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8zHXTMkMzc justbitching

    Ah, your still here… or their…or whatever

  • justlaughing (olga)

    @ justbitching
    No time for the Internet but read your posting – did not understand your last sentence, but what the heck? (understood the last word)
    Liked your logic about the Jewish kid and the piano teacher. Some people may take you seriously and you will be admitted to “the club” if you are lucky
    No, Law is no Canadian. Had to be said. My civic duty. (Australian I think.) I gather you have read his profound postings and I feel Australia should be given the credit for him.
    Being competitive, I want to impress you with my Latin.
    Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
    (Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound)
    Of course it’s fresh off a google search for Latin phrases.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Olga: “Australia should be given the credit for him.”
    I think he would disagree. I would tend to disagree too. I’m not exactly sure who should get the ‘credit’, but it seems a dubious honour.

  • http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,785907,00.html BIG JIM SAYS GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE

    Why should anyone take credit for Law when we have 26 heroic and of course innocent Jews who stuffed one Palestinian? Why is Israel so reluctant to credit for these heroic Jews?
    Hamas man was drugged before murder: Dubai police
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/28/AR2010022801606.html
    Just like the AVO, it took 26 brave and heroic Jewish terrorists to murder one Palestinian but only after drugging him. It should go down in history as one of Israel’s most celebrated and heroic events. It beats the heroic IDF soldiers’ target shooting and murdering Palestinian mothers and their children.
    All hail to Israel, the most heroic and most innocent country on the planet.

  • justlaughing (olga)

    @ Cinaed
    Hey, to be honest I don’t care who gets the “credit” Just wanted to make sure Canada does not get the “dubious honour” as you put it.
    I just wanted to do my patriotic duty to Canada and make sure no one ever thinks he is from here.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    olga: fine, no problem, but do you have to remind the world of the truth? There is a cringe factor at work here.
    -
    by the way, congratulations to you and zsuzsa on the hockey.

  • olga

    Hi Cinaed
    So you are a “patriotic Australian” – Well, JOBBIK can always claim him as one of their own.
    That was very exciting re last night’s Gold.
    BTW, talking about crazy patriotism. My son drove 5 hours yesterday to a Canadian city from his US University and 5 hours back because he “had to be on Canadian soil” with Canadian friends to cheer the team. At least the 10 hr drive was worth it.

  • Curious George

    “I’m not exactly sure who should get the ‘credit’”
    Cináed at March 1, 2010 4:40 AM
    @Cinead – I’m surprised. The Jews should get the ‘credit’, of course. If it wasn’t for the Jews and the “Establishment”, we might never have been ‘graced’ with Law’s presence here.
    I hope you’re not one to think the Jews can only take ‘credit’ for the negative things which happen? Tsk, tsk.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    A Patriotic Australian? Hmm. There are things that I am very proud of Australia for, and things that I am very much not proud of.
    Patriotism for me is a tricky thing. While I think it is normal to have an attachment to the place where you were born, I don’t necessarily see anything mystical about that. It’s little other than random chance that I happen to have been born on that particular piece of dirt. Don’t misunderstand though, if Australia was invaded I would do everything I could to defend it. I think Australia, like every nation, really should take responsibility for its faults and mistakes and not cover it over with patriotic zeal. I’m concerned at the rise of nationalist sentiment in some sections of the community…and that is something that certainly doesn’t fill me with any sense of patriotic pride when I see it on the news.
    -
    I am actually happy for Law that he found a sense of home in Hungary…and I honestly don’t mean that sarcastically.I just worry that in the euphoria that comes with belonging to a group, it is all too easy to forget one’s humanity and do things in the name of the country that will actually bring it much greater shame and pain in the long run.

  • olga

    @ Cinaed
    Re:”I am actually happy for Law that he found a sense of home in Hungary…and I honestly don’t mean that sarcastically”
    Me too except I mean it sarcastically.
    We can conclude I am just not as nice a person as you are. Mit lehet csinalni?

  • wants to know

    “I am actually happy for Law that he found a sense of home in Hungary…and I honestly don’t mean that sarcastically.I just worry that in the euphoria that comes with belonging to a group, it is all too easy to forget one’s humanity and do things in the name of the country that will actually bring it much greater shame and pain in the long run.
    Cináed at March 1, 2010 3:58 PM”
    Please tell us about all the horrible things Law is doing to bring “shame and pain” to himself or to Hungary. You must have some real damning things you can tell us in a world where murder by Israeli agents (latest update has 27 Jews who drugged and murdered one Palestinian) using various EU passport.
    Did Law do anything like that?
    Scores of MSZP and SZDSZ politicians and officials are hauled off to jail for crimes so disgustingly craven that only the Lendvai types would still be proud while others would be deeply ashamed.
    Did Law do anything like that?
    Did I mention the murder of all those Gaza Palestinians by the heroic IDF soldiers? In some countries, they are considered war criminals but we know that only Jew haters would object to the murder of a few hundred Palestinian women and children.
    Did Law do anything like that?
    Law must have done something very bad to speak of his “shame and pain” with all those wonderful things our Jewish friends are doing. Please tell us exactly what it is that Law did. You would not want to appear to be a dishonest and contemptible defamer. Would you?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    Scores of MSZP and SZDSZ politicians and officials are hauled off to jail for crimes so disgustingly craven that only the Lendvai types would still be proud while others would be deeply ashamed
    wants to know at March 1, 2010 6:54 PM

    Today the Jobbik-rep in Bicske, a bit outside of Budapest, was arrested as a suspected member of the Budahazy Molotov-Cocktail Shakers
    But that is of course nothing to be ashamed of,
    like the Keszthely Jobbik-rep that was found gulty of serious tax-fraud the other day
    Which Jobbik-rep will be arrested tomorrow?

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    I bear Law no ill will. Neither did my post defame him. Nor did I suggest that he has committed any illegal act. At no stage have I ever attacked him personally, or attempted to humiliate or discredit him. He, on the hand, has not done the same. I expressed my concern that in the long-run, the views he appears to hold may not reflect well on Hungary in the future.I wish Law well, and regret that he chose to see me as an ‘enemy’.
    -
    Israel has nothing to do with my opinion in this matter. I have more than once expressed my personal opinion of Israel’s behaviour, so this part of the post is irrelevent to the matter at hand.
    -
    I have expressed many times my deep affection for Hungary and my hope that it will return to prosperity. I have also constantly expressed a desire to do what I can to further Hungary’s interests. To characterise people as either ‘with us or against us’ is an awful waste of human potential that could assist Hungary in its endeavour for self-actualisation.
    Regards,
    C.

  • Elle

    ‘ … human potential that could assist Hungary in its endeavour for self-actualisation’
    Err … ? Fair dinkum or self-actualising innocent abroad?

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Elle: I didn’t understand your post.
    I guess what I was hinting at is that although there are people around who may not hold Hungary as their core identity, they may nevertheless come to help the country anyway. Whatever good will there is that might exist should be accepted and encouraged. Of course Hungary should be in charge of its own destiny, but just as FL says that we should learn from other countries re: their oil and gas technology, I’m sure the true can be said in many other areas. I think it’s sad when ‘outsiders’ are painted as ‘hungarian haters’ when they clearly aren’t anything of the sort. Hungary needs all the help it can get.I for one hope that I never take from Hungary any more than I give. If nothing else, in a few years, who knows, there might be a few more Hungarian speaking toddlers.

  • Law

    Lets just say Cinaed I don’t agree with your approach to applying the grey, liberal philosophical / agnostic illusion application to Hungary, simply it wont friggen work! We’re not in Australia or west where your whole political and education system has seriously inflicted deep wound into the populations psyche that it will take a major disaster to shake you out of the trance that majority are under, and you cant see it because you “Can’t see the forest for the trees.” You are far more dangerous in your position then I am and you don’t even realize how much damage you are inflicting by not seeing the obvious.
    Leave it at agree to disagree, why is it that you want to be everyones buddy? And if they don’t agree with you it’s like an ongoing rash that arises within your soul when your immune system begins to weaken. I give you a hint this rash is your ego trying to justify itself, It’s an issue you have to work on, by pulling the beam from your own eye.
    In Hungary there has been many political disasters to have kept a large majority of people out of the trance that you are in and that’s because Hungarians are one Gods last hopes to help awaken the rest of civilization. Szebb Jovot!

  • Curious George

    …because Hungarians are one Gods last hopes to help awaken the rest of civilization.
    Law at March 1, 2010 8:01 PM
    So you are the real chosen people. Now, you tell us!

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-PNagzijy0&feature=related Dave

    Billy Dont be a Hero

  • Elle

    @ Cináed
    I meant to suggest that you are either impossibly patronising in the well known Aussie way, or improbably naïve in the ‘new male’ way. It is very likely that you do not realise that you might be one or the other or both, because you are fully convinced that your off-the-peg ethics is impeccable. It is not, for reason alone that it is off the peg. People like Law have the courage of their personal convictions, and they voice them. People like you feel safe in your standard moral platitudes. Law’s integrity cocks a snook at those platitudes. Law thinks for himself. He does not tumble into the ‘ooo … let’s be inclusive’ morass of the mind-numbed. He knows who and what is good for Hungary. You do not even begin to have a clue.
    D’day mate! :)

  • justasking

    @ Elle;
    What does “cocks a snook ” mean?

  • Elle

    @ justasking
    Zsuzsa, to ‘cock a snook’ at something is to show that you don’t respect something or some. I usually cock a snook by saying f… off, or f … that.

  • olga

    @ Elle
    I just read one of Law’s sentences: “that’s because Hungarians are one Gods last hopes to help awaken the rest of civilization ”
    How do you feel about that statement?
    a. does it make you roll your eyes,
    b .cringe because you wish it hadn’t been written
    c. do you agree

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    We’re not in Australia or west where your whole political and education system has seriously inflicted deep wound into the populations psyche that it will take a major disaster to shake you out of the trance that majority are under

    In Hungary there has been many political disasters to have kept a large majority of people out of the trance that you are in and that’s because Hungarians are one Gods last hopes to help awaken the rest of civilization. Szebb Jovot!
    Law at March 1, 2010 8:01 PM

    Yes, as CG pointed out “God’s chosen people” and end with a traditional Hungarian Fascist Salute
    Yes, it must have felt hard that the Germans all became like Wolfie, just so ‘Westernised’ after WWII. Better German stuff between before WWII, right?
    .
    But is it not the same situation in Romania, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Serbia and of course, Russia?
    Why are Hungarians better than Russians, both have their ‘Trianon’. Russia’s is just of a later date, but they are in a real position to do something about it
    Maybe the Russians, with their Little Father Put In, is the real chosen people?

  • Bystander

    @Elle,
    Who wrote to Cinead who sounds like a nice person
    (since when is that something bad? In fact people
    who are NOT nice probably don’t have a lot of
    friends which leads to a miserable life, but hey
    that’s my opinion)… you said to Cinead: “you
    are either impossibly patronising in the well
    known Aussie way, or improbably naïve in the ‘new
    male’ way. It is very likely that you do not
    realise that you might be one or the other or
    both, because you are fully convinced that your
    off-the-peg ethics is impeccable”

    .
    So WHO is patronizing? Do you have ANY idea how
    obnoxiously arrogant you sound? ANY freaking
    idea? You sounded much better before when you
    were trying to sound academic… When you get
    personal boy are you a black talking kettle!
    .
    Hey and take this from an overeducated arrogant
    Jew… I know what I’m talking about!
    .
    Might wanna think about it… Cinead (IMO) comes
    off as modest yet informed. You on the other
    hand….

  • Rosza

    I woiuld criminalize the politicians as well.
    Square the triangle you might say.
    PS Standby your man:” Hey and take this from an overeducated, arrogant Jew…
    I know what I’m talking about!”
    (2 out of three ain’t bad…) But just keep on playin’ the idiot.
    The gallery love it…rotten tomatoes at the ready!

  • ti

    @bystander
    ma man! just cause you had to pay alot for your overpriced education does not make you overeducated, it just makes you ripped off.

  • justasking

    Now, now everybody! Bystander said awhile back he that he went to an Ivey League College.
    Hey, wait a second, didn’t George W Bush go to one as well :))

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Bystander: Thanks for the compliment.
    Elle: That was a pretty personal attack, which I can’t see as being justifiable. From what I see, you called me either arrogant or stupid and too dumb to know it.Anyway, perhaps that’s your style. “Patronising Aussie”. Actually, I am acutely aware of the tendency of westerners in general to think they know better than everyone else and that they have a mandate to moralise.There is a saying that in this context “Morality is the luxury of affluence”. Call it a hangover of ‘manifest destiny’.I don’t like this any more than you do, and if you read back through my posts you’ll see that I consistently say that Australia (or the west in general) shouldn’t be lecturing Hungary on what to do, as much as trying to cooperate with Hungarians on fixing the problems.”Naive new male”…is that some kind of veiled misandry? In any case, it’s sad you have misjudged who I am.Actually, I have seen far more of human nature than I would have preferred, and my position of seeking reconciliation is more based on seeing first-hand the result that enduring hatred has on people.It would be very easy to go to the opposite extreme, but I have chosen not to because I believe that to improve ourselves, we have to break the cycle.So to you it might sound like a string of cliches and bleeding heart rhetoric, which I agree is sometimes so ‘sweet’ it’s nauseating.”So open minded that your brain leaks out.” as it were…(cont)

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    …so just as not all conservatives are Nazis, it’s not the case that anyone who is doesn’t identify directly with the conservatives is a ‘neo-liberal’…or arrogant, or naive.They are just different to you.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Law: Good of you to comment and yes, the agree to disagree idea works for me. Again, with both you and Elle though, I get a distinct impression that you are speaking in my direction but see someone else. As far as wanting to be everyone’s ‘buddy’, I don’t see what the issue really is.Why is it such a bad thing to be polite or to try to learn from those on ‘the other side’ of the political divide? Afterall, this has been one of the biggest and most consistent criticisms from the ‘pro-Hungarian right’.Judging from your posts, I think that one of the big differences between you and I is that in our respective ‘ideal’ worlds, you could live in mine, but I would not be allowed to live in yours.By the way, I have never suggested that Hungary should follow any particular political, social or cultural model.I don’t think there is any single most-legitimate form of government other than the one that brings the most good to all of the people.Anything that requires force, repression or that pits one section of the community against another is headed for trouble.As you have said to me before ‘be careful what you wish for’.I agree that Australia is an adolescent among nations, and that many Australians are complacent and ignorant of bigger issues.It’s certainly not the worst place to live in the world though.
    (cont)

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    by the way, I don’t think that agnosticism is necessarily for everyone. That’s where I’m at right now as part of my ongoing life journey. I respect religions and think that freedom of religion is another fundamental human right, except where a religion mandates or condones violence, repression or deprivation of rights to others. I also think separation of church and state is essential.
    …so when you get down to brass tacks, I’m not a neo-liberal, nor necessarily a liberal at all. I’m not a religious nut, nor am I an anti-religious nut.I am definitely not ‘pro-establishment’, which is something that I would have thought would show through my posts. I’m not completely nihilistic either though, because afterall, we do need some institutions to function even if they aren’t perfect.They need to be improved, not destroyed.Actually, the values for government I hold are the same ones that are written into many constitutions (though often forgotten)around the world that protect rights and perpetuate a nations sovereignty.
    -
    I don’t see the point, or the need to hold moral values that deliberately hurt others, and I don’t see why the desire to raise questions to that effect should be seen as a bad thing.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Elle…incidentally, I don’t go in for that ocker ‘true Aussie’ style. …I have no time for idiotic macho bullshit, and I can’t stand stuffy academics who talk a lot of ‘theory’ but haven’t taken a step into the real world or written anything practically useful in the last 20 odd years. “New male?” whatever that is…I’m just not a jerk and don’t think one needs to be an arsehole to get one’s point across.

  • Elle

    @Cináed
    ‘Why is it such a bad thing to be polite or to try to learn from those on ‘the other side’ of the political divide? Afterall, this has been one of the biggest and most consistent criticisms from the ‘pro-Hungarian right’.’
    You do have a very high opinion of yourself. But let me point out to you that you give yourself away in your above-quoted sequence. What you call the ‘most consistent criticisms’ has never emanated from the ‘pro-Hungarian Right’, nor has it been levelled at it. You think that because the Hungarian Right comes in for virulent attack from certain sizeable quarters, you can safely mount such an attack yourself. Indeed, you, a pack hunter, feel that you SHOULD mount that attack. There is blood-lust in that, and it gives the lie in the ‘I don’t see the point, or the need to hold moral values that deliberately hurt others’ banner you waive so insistently. You go in for the kill, provided that you are in the safety of your pack.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Elle: Hell’s Bells!
    perhaps I should have clarified my post by making it clear I was talking about the ‘pro-Hungarian right’ at this website.
    -
    After that, the rest of your post was just full-on. ‘blood lust’? ‘pack hunter’? …and what was wrong with the question I asked? Why is it a bad thing to be polite and to learn from those who are represent a different point of view? My God, how you managed to read into that all of the evils of humanity I’m sure I’ll never know and perhaps I am better off not knowing.
    -
    Also, how does my wanting to be polite and to learn from others make me have ‘a high opinion of myself’? What should I say? When have I ever said to you or to anyone that I was superior, or that my view overrules theirs? When have I ever used my education or my experience to belittle others? If people have felt that way it is, of course, regrettable, however, just like everyone else here, you included, I use this site to express my views. I don’t see what is so arrogant about that. Would it be better if I became rude, insulting and generally nasty? How does that do anything but demean us all?

  • Elle

    @Cináed
    Your questions again betray you. You put them to deflect attention from what was said to you. For instance: ‘how does my wanting to be polite and to learn from others make me have ‘a high opinion of myself’?’ I did not say that it does, not that this is what you are doing. Did you miss my point? I told you that I see you as a pack hunter, i.e., not as a person capable of independent attitudes, nor as a person who resiles from vicious attack in the safety of the pack. Now, I disengage from the otherwise very boring topic ‘you’.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Wow, I sure my hope my mum never finds out she gave birth to the spawn of satan. She would be most disappointed.
    -
    Sure thing. Of course, let’s change the topic that you raised, when you decided to go on a character assassination.I still don’t see who the ‘pack’ is. In case you haven’t noticed, I don’t really belong to any group here, or anywhere else for that matter. In fact, among the people I respect most on this site are FL, Zsuzsa and Pav. I sometimes agree with Viking and Vandorlo, but probably also disagree just as often.As for whether or not you see me capable of having my own opinions…I guess that’s your opinion. How you can make a judgement like that, I think goes beyond the limited amount of information you’re ever going to see presented here. You know how the saying goes though, “To a man (or woman)with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”
    -

  • http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601081&sid=aF4ye33tJ.18 BIG JIM’s MONEY IS ON THE HYENAS

    Reading all these attacks on Law brings up the picture of a lion surrounded by a pack of hyenas nipping at him. Alone, not one of them could bring down the mighty lion but 27 of these hyenas give each other the courage they would never have alone.
    My money is on the 27 hyenas, the hyenas with the Australian, British, French and Irish passports :-)

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    “Reading all these attacks on Law…”
    Who attacked Law?

  • http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601081&sid=aF4ye33tJ.18 BIG JIM

    Cináed reminds me of Lanny Davis who starts out most of his slimy attacks with “love him like a brother” just before he stick the knife in his brother’s back.
    I bear Cináed no ill will but his slimy attacks on Law will bring him much shame and pain in the long run :-)

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    BIG JIM at March 2, 2010 12:42 PM

    Today’s question:
    * Why did Mark change his alias into “BIG JIM”?

  • http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601081&sid=aF4ye33tJ.18 BIG JIM

    Good one!
    1) Everyone who speaks favorably of Law is Mark
    2) Everyone who speaks against Jobbik is Jew
    Not sure if we can make this a universal truth but why not :-)

  • Elle

    This one won’t was, BIG JIM: ‘2) Everyone who speaks against Jobbik is Jew’. There’s Lovas Istvan, very prominently, and quite gloriously.

  • olga

    @ Big Jim
    Regarding Law:
    Elle won’t answer, maybe you will but I doubt it. Not in the script you were handed.
    Do you find anything wrong with the statement that Law posted:
    “that’s because Hungarians are one Gods last hopes to help awaken the rest of civilization ”
    In order to meet JOBBIK standards and not be considered an “enemy of Hungary” does one have to buy into that philosophy?
    I think it’s an excellent statement to sum up what you and the Hungarian ultra right wing believe in but the rest of the free Democratic world world might not agree. Of course there is a possibility the rest of the world is in denial
    Do you agree with the statement, yes or no?
    Viking – Remember Tom? Tom was followed by Mark, Mark was followed by Big Jim. I don’t think they are the same people. Different writing styles but IMHO there is a connection.

  • Elle

    @ olga
    For my personal amusement, please explain what you understand ‘that’s because Hungarians are one Gods last hopes to help awaken the rest of civilization’ to mean.

  • http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601081&sid=aF4ye33tJ.18 BIG JIM

    Olga, it really does not matter what you and I think. What matters here is what Law and Elle think. They are the real thing. You should ask Law to explain what he said. I think I understand what he is saying and my interpretation is that he was speaking of Hungarians’ historic role as defenders of western civilization and as the most courageous and self-sacrificing defenders of freedom. They showed that in 1848 and again in 1956. That makes Hungarians very special.
    On the other hand, my interpretation could be completely wrong and that is why it is best to ask the people what they meant by what they said instead of asking others or worse falsifying what they are saying.
    A little integrity goes a long way…

  • Curious George

    @Big Jim, Olga – Actually, I would agree with you.
    I don’t think Mark would know about, or understand Keeping Up Appearances. Sounds more like it would come from our pig-farmer friend from Pecs.
    Anyway, I really think Elle would make a very good ‘Hyacinth’. I wouldn’t be surprised if she even has some nice Herend with the hand-painted periwinkles, or some other flower.
    @Olga – I think it’s unfair to ask Big Jim to comment on Law’s statement. We have an official Jobbo Interpreter for such matters.

  • Elle

    ‘… he was speaking of Hungarians’ historic role as defenders of western civilization and as the most courageous and self-sacrificing defenders of freedom. They showed that in 1848 and again in 1956. That makes Hungarians very special.’
    BIG JIM at March 2, 2010 2:28 PM
    Exactly, BIG JIM.
    Is that the sound of grinding teeth I hear? CG has already ducked for ad hominem cover. You sad little snivellers.

  • http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601081&sid=aF4ye33tJ.18 BIG JIM

    Well, it is a lot of fun watching the village idiots arguing if I am Mark, Ricsi, or someone else but I have to run. I do appreciate the entertainment and while I am not commenting much on our chief village idiot’s pearls of wisdom, he should not take offense. I read them and they are something else…
    Elle, I like Lovas Pisti also. Give him time and he will come home

  • olga

    @ Big Jim, Curious George, Elle
    I am really not up to speed on what Jewish people claim(ed) but if they claim that “Jewish people are God’s chosen people” – it simply proves that insanity is alive and well amongst the Jewish people.
    Ditto for anyone claiming that Hungarians are “chosen”
    Statements like that make me automatically assume that the person’s mental health ought to be questioned and if the political party stands behind such statements I question that party’s agenda and credibility.
    Crazy anti-Hungarian me believes that God does not have chosen people. All humans on earth were, are and will be equal. End of the debate as far as I am concerned. (It is tempting to believe that being born in BP entitles me to special privileges in God’s eyes, but I am having trouble getting my head around such a claim)
    BTW What could a JOBBIK supporter ever say that may be over the top?
    Why is JOBBIK as opposed to every other political party in the Democratic world is ” above criticism” around here?
    Reminds me of the scandal in Denmark
    when an “anti-Muslim” cartoon was criticized or the fiasco when Salman Rushdie was put on a “hit list”
    Fanatics are not limited to any race of religion, are they now?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    my interpretation is that he was speaking of Hungarians’ historic role as defenders of western civilization and as the most courageous and self-sacrificing defenders of freedom. They showed that in 1848 and again in 1956. That makes Hungarians very special
    BIG JIM at March 2, 2010 2:28 PM
    —-
    1) “defenders of western civilization”
    Was that the war against the Turks you lost?
    And needed help from the rest of Europe to throw out of ‘your country’?
    .
    2) “self-sacrificing defenders of freedom. They showed that in 1848 and again in 1956″
    1848-9: Lost against the Habsburgs
    1956: Lost against Soviet
    How do these 2 loses differ to Czechoslovakia’s loss to the Soviets in 1968?
    Or the Yugoslavian Resistance in WWII that could fight off the Nazi-German troops by themselves and keep the Soviet troops outside Yugoslavia and therefore enjoy a higher degree of national freedom compared to Hungary in the period 1945-1990?
    -
    Is it not a bit cynical to claim that one country’s losses and sacrifices for its freedom is/was better than another countries’?
    On the other hand, that is the essential of ‘Nationalism’

  • Curious George

    @Big Jim – Who cares if you’re the Illinois Nazi or the Pec Pig Farmer. I addressed you as Big Jim. I just said that the Nazi probably wouldn’t know about Hyacinth, while the Pig Farmer would. For all I know or care, Big Jim could be the Woolly Pig himself!
    Sad little snivellers is not ad-hominem, but Hyacinth is? …. Only in the Jobbo world!

  • Elle

    Ditto for anyone claiming that Hungarians are “chosen”
    olga at March 2, 2010 3:02 PM
    But then, only you are claiming that.

  • olga

    @ Elle
    You are correct and I apologize. The phrase “Chosen people” was not mentioned and I am the first one who hates it when people twist words. No excuse for me here.
    Re:”that’s because Hungarians are one Gods last hopes to help awaken the rest of civilization”
    I shall rephrase my question.
    What do you think of the exact claim made my Law concerning “God’s last hope” as it relates to Hungarians?
    Not that I speak to God , but I would think God’s hope would be for humans (His Creations) to get along and to kindly not destroy the planet He created.

  • Curious George

    @Olga – Apologies! I understood it to mean ‘chosen people’. We are still waiting for the official Jobbo Interpreter to give the actual meaning.
    Apparently, she’s busy keeping score somewhere. Didn’t anyone tell her that the Olympics was over!

  • justasking

    @ Cinaed;
    Actually, Law, Mark and Ricsi have been used as punching bags lately even though they have not really posted here continuously for a bit. I figure it’s one thing to attack posters when their around and quite another when they are not.
    If you ask me, I think Viking really misses those guys.
    @ George;
    Always the little jabs. You were the one that gave me the honorary title of Interpreter. Short of asking Law directly, I like Jimbo’s version.

  • Law

    Olga, Cinaed CG and the Neo Liberal rat pack,
    I never claimed Hungarians are the chosen people it’s your social conditioning that has illustrated this image in your mind.
    I wrote Hungarians are one of Gods last hopes in helping awaken the masses.
    Hungarians have had a very volatile History and if you study the real cause of their demise It’s because the power elite have infiltrated, manipulated Hungarians true origins, they have a philosophy and history much more elaborate then the western societies and cultures are familiar with, and as soon as Historians and Scholars begin presenting this information they’re trashed by the mainstream academia because it would challenge the current Status quo, and too many people within the establishment would be exposed so they are trying to protect their lies with corrupt Laws.
    I discovered your rat pack is part of a larger illusion,that once this illusion is shattered the whole deck of cards will com tumbling down.
    Jobbik and National movement have begun banging on the doors of the parliament ready to expose the cheats, corrupt liars that have robbed Hungarians of their monies, historical identity, culture and are trying to turn them into the same empty souls of the west, this is where I say we are one of Gods last hopes to bringing hope not only to Hungary but to the rest of society, and this is what keeps me alive, Hope for an awakening that will help my nation.

  • Law

    „Hiszek egy Istenben, hiszek egy hazában:
    Hiszek egy isteni örök igazságban,
    Hiszek Magyarország feltámadásában! Ámen.”
    Hungarians have had a Christian history, which is not meant to be confused with the mainstream version; there is so much interesting lectures available buy numerous Hungarian scholars who have donated their own time and energy, whom most volunteer
    their to spread information about the fascinating Magyar peoples History that has been oppressed.

  • justasking

    @ George;
    See! Ask and you shall receive.

  • justasking

    @ Viking;
    The point is not whether people win or loose. It’s that they believe in something so strongly that they would fight for it.

  • Curious George

    @justasking – Without knowing Law’s meds, it is sometimes a bit difficult to unlock the actual meaning of what he is trying to say. Too many illusions, there.
    Thanks JA, but we always seem to understand you much easier! To us, you’re heaven sent!

  • Elle

    What do you think of the exact claim made my Law concerning “God’s last hope” as it relates to Hungarians?
    http://www.politics.hu/20100223/hungarian-mps-criminalize-holocaust-denial#c163
    Was there an ‘exact claim made by Law’ of the kind you posit for my assessment? I seem to have missed it. Look again. Keep in mind while looking that Law is an intelligent man: he does not talk drivel. But perhaps I can help a little. This is what Law said:
    ‘In Hungary there has been many political disasters to have kept a large majority of people out of the trance that you are in and that’s because Hungarians are one Gods last hopes to help awaken the rest of civilization.’
    I think he left out ‘of’ between ‘one’ and ‘God’s’ (typo). I think also that by his ‘that’s because’ Law means ‘that is why’. Remember that English is not Law’s first language. (I wish my written Hungarian were as good as Law’s English, by the way.)
    So, do you feel inclined to re-think your question to me? (Take your time.) Meanwhile, I am happy to tell you that I like this rhetorical flourish of Law’s. But if you need it reduced to workaday prose, you should refer it to him.

  • Law

    Whoops! I’m sorry, Law. I did not realise that you had written before I posted my answer to olga’s question.
    Szebb jövőt!

  • Elle

    Oh, no! The last ‘Law’ post was mine. Sorry!

  • justasking

    @ George;
    You know, sometimes we all hit below the belt, me included, on some of our slams. But, to deliberately humiliate another poster just for fun is uncalled for. And that person should be ashamed of themselves.
    In my world, we are all Heaven sent. In my World, my God does not place one group of people above the another.
    I appreciate how Law, Elle, Pava and Farkas and others do love Hungary and stick up for it at every opportunity.
    The prayer that Law included on his last post was one I remember saying as a young child and had forgotten about. I do not think that anybody should have to apologize because they happen to deeply love their country.

  • Bystander

    Does anybody find that the exchange below seems to
    imply that either Law and “Elle” are the same
    person or that “Elle” has some identity issues?
    Whoops! I’m sorry, Law. I did not realise that
    you had written before I posted my answer to
    olga’s question.
    Szebb jövőt!
    Law at March 2, 2010 4:51 PM
    -
    Oh, no! The last ‘Law’ post was mine. Sorry!
    Elle at March 2, 2010 4:53 PM

    .
    Perhaps Law/Elle has a better explanation? It
    seems to me that by the second posting Law/”Elle”
    forgot which moniker he/she was using…
    HILARIOUS!

  • Bystander

    I guess palinka and “impersonation” don’t mix very
    well, do they?
    -
    My money says “Big Jim” will be the next to slip
    up… Mark will come back and talk about the fabled
    “27″ or something…

  • Elle

    @ Bystander
    Thank you. I feel deeply complimented by your suggestion that I can be mistaken for Law. Thank God nobody has suggested that I might be you. (I take it you are now putting on display the traits of the ‘over-educated Jew’ you say you are. Most unconvincing, so far.)

  • Bystander

    Elle,
    -
    Gosh do you sound like an a-hole! :)
    -
    Just for the record, in my humble opinion ;)
    (thought you’d like that), you are not admirable
    just cause you put up a FIGHT… Anybody can be
    wrong, yet be a “fighter”.
    -
    I’m sure this is lost on you, but totalitarian
    regimes ALWAYS had ranks and ranks of
    ‘nationalistic but wrong, fighters’ on their
    side… So don’t go trying to paint yourself as
    noble just cause the chip on your shoulder is
    oversized.
    -
    You *really* should hear one day how you sound
    here. Yeah yeah, I’m sure *I* sound like a
    dangerous character to you (and Big Jim!).
    -
    Look into getting that “chip” removed from your
    shoulder… it would really enhance the debate, or
    actually allow an actual debate to *happen*. You
    appear to have no sense of humor to boot… just
    an observation from one of the “27″… we’re
    everywhere and we like to KNOW things!

  • Elle

    Go on then: debate away. I’d quite like to see you capable of anything other than borish insolence. Somehow though, I expect to be disappointed.

  • Bystander

    Sorry to disappoint you but I wasn’t involved in
    your debate.
    -
    I just thought I would use my God-given right of
    self-expression to point out my opinion on who here
    sounds convincing and who here sounds like an
    enormous pompous ass with a huuuge chip on his/her
    shoulder.
    -
    We have a winner!

  • Bystander

    By the way, it’s “boorish”!
    -
    And you said I couldn’t be an asshole! ;)

  • Elle

    I rest my case.

  • Bystander

    @Elle,
    Don’t make promises you know you can’t keep!

  • http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601081&sid=aF4ye33tJ.18 BIG JIM

    My money says “Big Jim” will be the next to slip
    up… Mark will come back and talk about the fabled
    “27″ or something…
    Bystander at March 2, 2010 6:03 PM
    ———-
    Why are you so interested in identities? What names people use is their business as long as they do not forge other posters’ names to do dirt. If you are bothered by people, using false identities you must be going nuts over those 27 Israeli terrorists/murderers that used fakes identities and passports to drug and murder one Palestinian. Very heroic. No?
    They used Australian, British, French and Irish identities or something like that. Now, that is evil. People wanting to post as Bystander, BIG JIM, Mark, Clueless George, Elle, Viking or whatever is just fun and games. Do you have a problem with that?

  • Farkas László

    A “debate” is possible when there is a third party judge or audience to give feedback on who did a better job of stating their case. The type of competitive debating seen in schools and colleges is an example of that. When you “win” in a school debate, that doesn’t mean you are “right”, it just means you did a better job than your opponent in defining your position and countering your opponent’s arguments. School debates are structured. They begin with opening arguments, and each side is allowed so many opportunities for rebuttal. Then it comes to an end and the judges make their decision.
    Ongoing controversies on politics.hu do not fit this mold. When people go on about whether their was a holocaust or not, they are not “debating”, they are argueing. An argument, unlike a debate, is unstructured, unmoderated, often unjudged and goes on indefinitely. Because the two sides accept different foundational assumptions and facts, neither ends up convincing the other.
    For there to be a formal “debate” on this website, Erik would have to pick an issue, a panel of judges, a moderator as well as disputants. Each side would be allowed only so much time or opportunity to state their position and to rebut the arguments of the opposite side. Facts and evidence could be presented by both sides. Then it would be over and a judgement rendered.
    Come to think of it, this might not be a bad idea for the most volatile issues. Maybe politics.hu could use a “debate”

  • Curious George

    But, to deliberately humiliate another poster just for fun is uncalled for. And that person should be ashamed of themselves.
    justasking at March 2, 2010 4:54 PM
    @JA – I agree with what you said. Where did I get the impression that you enjoyed sitting back, and looked forward to someone being humiliated and/or getting his ass kicked. (I think that show should be in 2 days time – the director;)usually drops by on Thursdays or Fridays)
    Anyway, I do think your below-the-belt jabs aren’t mean spirited, and they are sometimes even funny:) But, I’m not so sure about the child-molesters, the mind-numbed, the snivellers, the village idiots, the pack hunters, the slinky jews, the stinky jews, or even the unwashed masses.

  • justasking

    @ George;
    Oh, I do enjoy when Pava kicks peoples asses all over this site. I have no issue calling people village idiot, asking if they are on crack etc. Your right, I don’t try to be mean spirited per say. Sometimes I succeed and other times I don’t.
    I do however, feel lately that instead of getting one up on each other, the attacks are getting more personal. The one from you about Law and meds, or the time that I threw in Vikings face his dyslexia. Those are the examples that I was talking about, the ones that are not meant to be funny; but, meant to hurt. I for one was ashamed of my self for stooping so low. Calling a person child molester is right up there as well.
    I just wish we would go back to the lighter slams that are indeed funny. Mind you, we all have different opinions on what is funny and what is not. I personally think that I am as funny as Hell!!!

  • olga

    @ Big Jim
    Re:”They used Australian, British, French and Irish identities or something like that. Now, that is evil.”
    At this point no one has been charged nor convicted of the assassination. Moreover he belonged to Hamas and last time I checked members were considered “terrorists” – Members of Al Queda are considered terrorists and can’t imagine too many Americans or Canadians being outraged if one of them was murdered.
    Anyway, I realize that charges and convictions are not that important to you but you seem to be following the story and maybe you can clear something up for me.
    According to Dubai police, “there is DNA evidence” pointing to Mossad.
    I can understand that that DNA was left by the people responsible for the assassination, however in order to connect the crime to the actual guilty party or parties, it’s a scientific fact that the Dubai police must have the assassins’ DNAs for comparison.
    So if the premise is true and the assassins were Mossad agents, then Mossads’ DNA profiles are on file. If they are on file, passports, fake IDs are not all that relevant because DNA would prove
    guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
    Kindly explain this since you seem to have inside information

  • anonymous

    yes big jim, if it took 27 amerikans to kill osama bin laden would that be ok with you? the hamas military wing leader was negotieting to buy advanced weapons to point eslusivly at civilians. is that no terrorist? 27 sounds good. about right.

  • wolfi

    I’ve just started to try reading all this heated discussion, but I don’t get it somehow ???
    Elle wrote:
    I think he left out ‘of’ between ‘one’ and ‘God’s’ (typo). I think also that by his ‘that’s because’ Law means ‘that is why’. Remember that English is not Law’s first language. (I wish my written Hungarian were as good as Law’s English, by the way.)
    So what is Law’s first language – is he from another planet ß
    That might explain why some people here think he’s crazy …

  • Curious George

    @justasking – What’s the difference with being on crack vs being on meds? If one was to choose any person here who was thought to be on crack, who do you think that would be?
    btw, I never felt Perverszem really kicks ass. I always thought he just vomits on some people, and takes others on a round-trip sight seeing tour until they forget what they came there to see. eg, Wolfi is jewish because he share the same last name as Markus Wolf. Uh, did you or anyone else here believe that was relevant to the argument, or was that supposed to be ass-kickingly funny? Does it even matter (to you) if Wolfi was jewish?
    I’ve been on his tour before, so I’m not expecting anything different. My expectation is that he is gorging himself to get ready for a major puke. I’m more interested in seeing how many people (FL & Cinead esp) are actually going to buy his explanation on the Soviets, or whether he is conveniently going to avoid providing any convincing info on that.

  • justasking

    @ George;
    Usually people on crack, I would think, would not want to post on a Political site, just in case it might ruin their “trip”
    Meds on the other hand, are prescribed to people for whatever reason, due to conditions that are out of their control.
    One is said in an attempt to be “funny” in an ironic sort of way, (actually Olga said it to me once) and the other is not meant to be funny at all.
    As for Pava’s guided tours, Hell I always try and get a window seat.
    As I said before, I could careless what nationality, ethnicity, religion or planet people are from. I’ll talk to pretty much anybody as long as they are decent towards me.
    Is Wolfie really Jewish?

  • wolfi

    Wow,been off this site for a few days (Now in Germany again) and look at the “new level” the discussion has risen to …
    @justasking:
    If I weren’t happily married to my sexy Hungarian wife, I’d invite you to see for yourself (circumcised or not …?)

  • Curious George

    @justasking – is Wolfie really Jewish?
    I guess that depends on whether your window seat is on the left side or the right side:)

  • justasking

    @ Wolfie;
    Was that really necessary you pig?
    @George;
    You know I sit on the right.

  • wolfi

    @justasking:
    Just think about the hundreds or even thousands of lines pavian has written on this “very important” question (you don’t have to read that regurgitatet shit of his ) – Then you might realise whether it’s important or not …

  • Curious George

    @JA – It’s still difficult for me to answer exactly. Most of the right side windows have their blinds down, so I’m really not sure what view you’re seeing.
    Maybe you could ask Wolfi’s wife to answer from a Hungarian POV.

  • justasking

    @ George;
    But you don’t understand. We actually see the real view through our special X-ray glasses that looks through the blinds.:))

  • olga

    @ Elle
    Please explain this obsession of interpreting what other ultra right-wing supporters mean? Did the cat get their tongues or in these cases spray on their key boards and thus they can no longer use their computers?
    You excused Law’s words and come up with a typo and stated his English was not great. Is there an other official language spoken in Australia? I thought his sentence was crystal clear especially since it matched previously posted rhetoric. I do think you deserve an “A ” for creativity as well as loyalty.
    Justasking felt the need to interpret Pavaszem”s posting – I am sure he will be grateful although I believe he prefers his own “confuse and conquer” tactic where ambiguity rules.
    I hope no one ever has to “interpret” what I write and if something is not clear I would be given the courtesy to explain my own words. Unless of course I couldn’t because of “cat problems” as noted above.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    @ Viking;
    The point is not whether people win or loose. It’s that they believe in something so strongly that they would fight for it.
    justasking at March 2, 2010 4:38 PM
    —-
    The point is also that not always this is a ‘just cause’, take ETA’s fight for a Free Basque Nation, or Serbian Nationalist’s fight for Greater Serbia
    In the latter case you definitely have a conflict
    directly to Hungarian interests
    Also, which people has not representatives that would fit into this category. Historically these reps have not always been treated fairly, or even ‘been right in their cause’
    Let us go back to my favourite, Kossuth, the Super-Hungarian, who very few today would give real credit to. Instead people of today think of the time 1849-1920 as something good in Hungary
    Doing that means Kossuth was wrong and if we would have lived in Kossuth-time, but with today’s political language, all Hungarian Governments would have called Kossuth a ‘terrorist’
    Because that is what you call a ‘political movement’ that actively prepares the overthrow of the current Government and State (Kossuth failed 3 times to set up an external army that would have invaded Hungary to liberate it from Austria and the Habsburg)
    Give some food for thoughts who was yesterday a terrorist (Nelson Mandela and all the WWII anti-Nazi resistance movements, etc) are heroes today
    Similar yesterday’s heroes would be called terrorists today if they would do today, what they did yesterday
    Who wins decide the perspective

  • http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601081&sid=aF4ye33tJ.18 BIG JIM HAS SOME QUESTIONS

    Kindly explain this since you seem to have inside information
    olga at March 2, 2010 9:04 PM
    You are not the brightest bulb in the pack, are you? Murder is murder and forging of passports is illegal. My sources are the same as your sources, CNN, BBC and such. If you think that all these networks are out to get that those nice and innocent Israelis then you are more entertainment than I hoped.
    Mixing up Hamas and Al Queda is fine but not very informed. The “terrorist” thing is another question that has as many answers as there are sides. It is often said that one man’s “terrorist” is another man’s “freedom fighter”.
    To describe it so that you can understand, these Israeli terrorists are probably considered heroes by you and the likes of Bystander, Viking, wolfie and all those Jews who think that Hitler had only one fault and that was his dislike of Jews. To most people, murder is murder and a murderer is a murderer. It does not matter if that is a Palestinian who blows himself up to murder Jews or if it is an IDF pilot dropping cluster and white sulfur bombs on Palestinians and others. At one time, President Reagan called the Taliban freedom fighters but it was when they were giving the Russians the business. Somewhere, along the line these wonderful “freedom fighters” became nasty “terrorists”. Some call Hams a terrorist organization is that they are fighting against Israel to get their country back. I find it hard to believe that every one considers them terrorists.
    You can find the answers to most of your questions in the media, mostly Jewish media but even there is enough to make a thinking person wonder why these Jewish murderers used for instance British identities. You are so good at asking questions. How about answering some:
    Are the Australian, British, French and Irish government Nazis for protesting the forging and misuse of their passports?
    Is everyone Nazi who protested the slaughter of Palestinians, hundreds of women and children?
    Is it OK for Jews to murder Palestinians with weapons so terrible that they are forbidden by international laws?
    Should not the responsible members of IDF and Israeli government be prosecuted for war crimes?
    If Hungarians and others can be called Nazis for wanting to keep their own country, should the Jews be called Nazis for stealing the Palestinians and Hungarians’ country?
    Is murder or protesting against murder is hate?
    Who is murdering people, the Hungarians of the Jews?

  • olga

    @ Big Jim
    I only wish I had the time this morning to properly reply to your missive in detail but unfortunately I don’t
    Thanks to this website, the Jewish population grew and now includes not only me but Viking, Vandorlo, Wolfi, Cinaed ,Curious George and maybe others.
    While I appreciate your thoughtful provoking questions, you failed to answer the one question I asked about DNA evidence. I understand how passionate you are about your beliefs and that it was an oversight.
    I can assure you that not “everyone” thinks Hamas is a terrorist organization. I trust that will brighten up your day.
    Moreover if you are puzzled as to why the assassins used fake passports, let me try to figure that one out. Ok, I think I know.
    They probably used fake passports so their true identities would not be known. Just a guess
    I’ll tell you one thing – next time I need a hit man I will still give my business to the Mafia .
    I am confident it would not have taken 27 people to assassinate one person. No wonder no organization wants to admit such incompetence.
    In closing, please explain the DNA evidence since that was the only question I actually asked.
    Did you have problems at school with focusing on a question that required simple answers?

  • http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601081&sid=aF4ye33tJ.18 BIG JIM

    Dear Olga,
    The answer to your DNA question is both technical and confidential. I will explain it to you the next time Mark brings you to our meeting. Try to hold down the luvy dubby stuff because we may have to kick Mark out of the group. Of course, the DNA stuff will have to remain our secret. It is the same technique we tried to make a Hitler clone but the Jews beat us to it. That is how they got Joe Lieberman. Must be the Ivy League education. We give up because the world could only handle one Hitler and we just have to be happy with Joe Lieberman.
    Cheers, Jim

  • Dave

    Dr. Árkay László Monográfok
    Research of Professor W. Penfield commissioned by the Rockefeller Foundation
    A few years ago (*) Professor Wildred Penfield, an eminent scholar at McGill University, received a research assignment from the Rockefeller Foundation, to determine if there was a primordial human gene on Earth, and if there was one to identify it. He had received an enormous financial grant amounting to millions of dollars. The covert, but real objective of the research assignment was to find the Semitic gene as such a superior entity.
    A large research team was employed on the task. After several years of work they indeed found the sought after gene. However, they found not only one, but TWO. It was determined of these two that they may be temporarily suppressed through generations and even centuries, but afterward they break out again, while German and Negro, for instance, atrophy and disappear. These two genes break out again after centuries and they clash with each other.Temporarily, one gene may suppress the other, they can even combine, but after several generations one surfaces and becomes the exclusively dominant gene. Thus, the Penfield research team indeed found the hoped-for Semitic gene, but also found another such primordial gene which had no name.

  • Dave

    Of this second gene, Professor Penfield reported that, its purest representative is found in the Hungarian people of Central Europe and he added in his final report that this very same gene can be found also on five scattered points of the globe. The consequence of this finding – which ruined the hoped-for expectations of the pro-Semitic Rockefeller Foundation – was the immediate cancellation of the funding, and, banning the publication of the report. The research team, of course, was disbanded. The report did not see the light of day.
    “At one point I had the final report in my hands. The five spots identified by the experts are exactly identical with the five spots on the globe where the pentatonic Hungarian folk music can be found. “ added Dr. Árkay. “But the best of it is to come.!
    “I had an extraordinary telephone conversation two or three years ago with my dear friend, professor Tibor Baráth. He said that he was not a musician and does not know anything about folk music. He had a world atlas on which he marked every finding in recorded history where any ancient, Hungarian or other writings were found and deciphered. But he admitted, that he was at a loss because these five spots were scattered all over the globe.”

  • Dave

    “I pricked my ears” says Dr Árkay. “Which are these five spots?” I asked. “Well, 1. Hungary and Central Asia Ural Region but not the Slavic areas, 2 the Far-East, in China and Japan, 3. Central Africa, 4. the Indian regions in America and 5. Scotland”. I was stunned and ready to sit down. For, these spots were exactly identical with the five large spots where pentatonic music and the genetic spots identified by the Penfield research team were found.
    This evidence then brought to a common denominator the results of investigations that began in three different and disparate scientific disciplines, research of folk music, archeology of great antiquity and genetic research.
    (*) cca. 1960’s

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    Ahh, this BS has already Law published before, or was it Beju?
    It will not become more correct for that, just because you Jobbik-Kuruc Internet Commandos keep inventing new aliases
    Or you have started from page 1 of the Instruction Manual again?

  • justasking

    @ Viking;
    I can always trust you to explain away anything positive about Hungary, it’s History and the Hungarian people.
    I can always trust you to explain when something bad has happened to Hungary and the Hungarian people, why they ” deserved it”.
    I was reading an article this morning about a 92 year old lady that passed away due to a severe beating that she received from some gypsies.
    I saw it as another crime against Hungarians, that goes unchecked.
    You on the other hand would seen it as a clear case of misunderstanding. How this frail little old lady just “happened to repeatedly stumble into their fists and that she should have been more careful”.

  • Bystander

    @Dave,
    I would be interested to know how during the 1960s
    “scientists” managed to come up with ANY useful
    genetic data as we now know it, considering the
    techniques now used to sequence individual DNA
    genes at any kind of useful speed (see also “Human
    Genome Project”) were only invented in the last
    20-30 years.
    -
    Sounds like more crap science, but hey I’m open to
    hearing some facts mixed in if you can find the
    real source data (DOUBT it!). Also, the
    “pentatonic scale” is used in nearly ALL native
    musics as they are the simplest five notes
    generated by the natural acoustic circle of
    fifths… (see also “Pythagoras”).
    -
    Nothing against claims of ancient Hungarians as
    the “Master Race” but like some here like to say
    about Jews, claims of “racial superiority” about
    ANYone makes me shudder to the bone.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7l8rlnMpCI&feature=related Dave

    You’re very ignoarant bystander
    DNA was first isolated by the Swiss physician Friedrich Miescher who, in 1869, discovered a microscopic substance in the pus of discarded surgical bandages.
    In 1953 James D. Watson and Francis Crick suggested what is now accepted as the first correct double-helix model of DNA structure in the journal Nature.
    In an influential presentation in 1957, Crick laid out the “Central Dogma” of molecular biology, which foretold the relationship between DNA, RNA, and proteins, and articulated the “adaptor hypothesis”
    Final confirmation of the replication mechanism that was implied by the double-helical structure followed in 1958 through the Meselson-Stahl experiment.
    Further work by Crick and coworkers showed that the genetic code was based on non-overlapping triplets of bases, called codons, allowing Har Gobind Khorana, Robert W. Holley and Marshall Warren Nirenberg to decipher the genetic code. These findings represent the birth of molecular biology.
    Bystander again you are out to spread lies you Neo Liberal C**T!

  • Bystander

    @Dave,
    Um, it is not *I* who is ignorant, especially
    after having worked myself at a virus research
    laboratory (looking into your ancestors)under the
    auspices of the former head of Harvard’s molecular
    biology department — I am *fairly* well up-to-
    date on my recombinant-DNA-technologies… you?
    -
    I admit that I am no longer working in that field,
    however I imagine I have quite a bit more
    expertise than YOU.
    -
    Noting like you said that the structure of DNA
    (using X-ray diffraction, like Crick/Watson)
    includes base-pairs/codons and amino-acid
    construction and so on does NOT yield specific
    genetic sequencing information that in the current
    state of the art — especially post-Human-Genome-
    Project — could possibly have yielded any useful
    genetic information on specific individuals or tie
    them to race/geographic information at the time
    period your fake-data suggests.
    -
    You are welcome to try “at” me further on this
    topic, but I have the feeling I will be able to
    rebut anything you have on this one (as long as
    the data is from the 1960s), as I gather I have
    quite a bit more expertise on this than you. Feel
    free to try, however.
    -
    While you’re at it, see how many references to
    this original source data you can find on the web.
    You’ll prob just find amateur people like yourself
    who regurgitated the same info for novelty’s sake.
    -
    If the data had come from within the last 10-15
    years, I would certainly find it 1000x more
    convincing.
    PS Science isn’t Liberal or Conservative.

  • Pávaszem

    @Olga: “Aha!! They were ordered. I should have known…” You should have indeed… The largest shareholders of Fidesz are BAE and Lockheed Martin. Do ’1999 Lockheed scandal’ http://bit.ly/aLg6O8Steven or the names Steven Jones, Balsai István and Selmeczi Gabriella ring any bells? How about the 31 Fidesz MPs that were also involved? The jig’s been up for them and confirmed again and again ever since. “have to come up with a straight answer. Not exactly your MO” Let me give you a little friendly advice honey (bucket): accuse me of shit a little less obviously false and you’ll look a lot less ridiculous, OK? You have yourself admitted more than once that I do answer questions. YOU on the other hand do not while you accuse me of what you are doing. How typical.

  • Pávaszem

    @Olga, continued: “There are only two minorities that are actually represented in Hungary. Jewish people and the Roma…” Bulgarians, Gypsies, Greeks, Croatians, Poles, Germans, Armenians, Romanians, Ruthenians, Serbs, Slovaks, Slovenes, and Rusyns (“Ukrainians”) are actually all officially recognized minorities in rump Hungary. Although ‘A common feature of the majority of Hungary’s national and ethnic minorities is that, having lived within the framework of the Hungarian state for centuries, they profess a dual identity: their consciousness of being Hungarian is as strong as their nationality ties. Most left their original homeland and communities before the formation of a structured literary language, and as a consequence the languages and dialects they use to this day are in general archaic linguistic variations…’ http://www.szmm.gov.hu/download.php?ctag=download&docID=1281 There are apparently no Jews living in Hungary so I was probably just imagining the crowd pouring out of that Synagogue were all Jews… They were probably German tourists dressed up as Hassidim…

  • Pávaszem

    @Olga, more: “Just exactly how would you solve these problems?” Good question! The answer is that I don’t know. We’ve had the Jew/Gypsy problem for at least 500 years and nothing I mean NOTHING seems to work. Maybe we should invite that Harvard scholar, what’s his name… Kramer… dr. Kramer! http://bit.ly/aXB4fl to sterilize and starve them to death… If it works in Palestine why shouldn’t it work here, right? I mean look what happened in Ózd: “kilencvenkét éves… Solymosi Miklósnét… január 19-én verte meg a házában három [cigány], egyikük tizenegy, társai tizennégy évesek. A brutálisan bántalmazott nő három héttel később, február 13-án a kórházban életét vesztette.” http://bit.ly/a7rJFy Úgyizony. Szögi Lajos, Marian Cosma, és még sorolhatnánk Oroszlányon, Tarnabodon, Gadnán, stb. stb… Let’s alert Anna Porter! I am sure she’ll rush in to fight the injustice with another passionate article in the Globe and Mail. What do you think?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7l8rlnMpCI&feature=related Dave

    Professor Penfield reported that, its purest representative is found in the Hungarian people of Central Europe and he added in his final report that this very same gene can be found also on five scattered points of the globe. The consequence of this finding – which ruined the hoped-for expectations of the pro-Semitic Rockefeller Foundation – was the immediate cancellation of the funding, and, banning the publication of the report. The research team, of course, was disbanded. The report did not see the light of day.

  • olga

    @ Pavaszem
    Re:”The largest shareholders of Fidesz are BAE and Lockheed Martin. Do ’1999 Lockheed scandal’ http://bit.ly/aLg6O8Steven or the names Steven Jones, Balsai István and Selmeczi Gabriella ring any bells? ”
    I am having one of those days where I have very little time to come to my “favourite website” – Very interested in you paragraph and will check out the topic
    Quick, neutral question (you never said to stop asking questions so I gather it’s ok) that may result in a direct non-partisan answer.
    No need to remind me that Hungary is not Canada nor the USA . I get it.
    The Hungarian election is just over a month away.
    Is there a website preferably English (Hungarian will do) that outlines VERY BRIEFLY and broken down by political parties, the 5 or 6 salient and most urgent challenges that Hungary is facing and how the parties plan to resolve it.
    This hypothetical website will not include rhetoric and if it”dumps” on an other party, it’s not enough to say the opponents are crooked thieving lowlife bastards. Rather an outline of the balances and checks that will be put in place to prevent corruption. Political corruption is like an illness , you can’t avoid it but at least prevent it from crippling the country
    You are correct – you do answer questions. Problem is you play the “confuse & conquer game” -
    Half truths and “truths” not verifiable like the Kiraly allegations. Anyway, to be honest, I just want to concentrate on the upcoming election issues.

  • Mosoly

    The Greek debt is something like 300 billion dollars or euros, I’m not sure. A bond issue is expected to save the Greeks from the brink.
    Where will the bubble-and-squeaks make the savings
    to stop the receivers piling in? By refraining from putting feta/fetid cheese on the mousetraps.
    The squeakers will starve to death instead of being garrotted.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    I was reading an article this morning about a 92 year old lady that passed away due to a severe beating that she received from some gypsies.
    I saw it as another crime against Hungarians, that goes unchecked.
    You on the other hand would seen it as a clear case of misunderstanding. How this frail little old lady just “happened to repeatedly stumble into their fists and that she should have been more careful”.
    justasking at March 3, 2010 3:32 PM
    —-
    Who is now ‘putting words in my post’?
    .
    So, if we now is going to use this old woman’s faith as political gain:
    “I saw it as another crime against Hungarians, that goes unchecked”
    “another crime against Hungarians”?
    Was this not a ‘Hungarian on Hungarian’ type of crime?
    Or the perpetrators have been arrested and identified as being non-Hungarians?
    .
    If your children would be run over by a drunk driver in Canada, would it matter for you the colour of the skin of the driver?
    .
    Do you really think this old woman would have been more happy if she would have been beaten up by a gang ‘Tiszta Magyars’?
    .
    Why is the colour of the skin so important for you?
    Are not criminals just that, criminals, regardless skin-complexion?

  • Bela

    Big difference is there is a high percentage of gypsies who have no respect for human life, and majority are committing horrific crimes against Humanity and they use the law in their favor, three strikes and your over and out will be the law soon.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    three strikes and your over and out will be the law soon.
    Bela at March 3, 2010 11:01 PM

    And that have made a great improvement in California, where you live?
    One of the biggest State cost is now the parts that relates to the many prisons and their staff and the prisoners themselves
    Even if tax is low in the US, it must be fun to support the criminals so they can enjoy their time

  • Farkas László

    I see the purpose of “three strikes” sentencing as removing problem,repeat offenders from society so that they can’t hurt the public anymore.
    I’ve said before on this website that if you really start three strikes sentencing in earnest, then you will have a growing prison population that will cost a lot of money to incarcerate. (Keep in mind that the “third strike” means the prisoner is incarcerated for life, which can cost a lot of money, especially if the offender is young.) Can Hungary and it’s politicians put sufficient money behind such an idea, without borrowing it from the EU? We can gauge the seriousness of the politicians about crime by asking what funds they will put up for an expanded prison network, as well as for the keeping of internees for life.
    Comparison to the US is difficult, because that country has more financial resources available for purposes that it’s ruling classes consider “priorities”. Political and economic elites there enthusiastically appropriate funds more more police, prisons and prison maintenance. As so many prison jobs and services have been farmed out to the private sector, companies view prisons as “profit centers” and a lucrative source of government contracts.

  • justasking

    @ Viking;
    Oh! So that’s how you try to wheedle your way out of a corner when you encounter something you can’t talk your way around or out of? You use the “were all created equal” card. Unfortunately, some people are considered more equal then others, as in the case of Gypsies vs Hungarians. Where the Hungarians tend to be the latter.
    Nice attempt on your part I have to admit. Trying to give the impression that I don’t consider Gypsies Hungarians.
    I personally, would be thrilled if the Gypsies of Hungary would consider themselves Roma Hungarians. For that would mean that they are integrating into society, Hungarian society. And when people do that, they tend to have an appreciation and respect for that country and not an attitude of contempt towards, essentially, the hand that feeds them.
    And no, I am not referring to all Gypsies; but, some Gypsies.
    No, it should not matter what colour your skin is, just your crime. And in a perfect world that would be true, but it’s not a perfect world now is it? And skin colour does play into things.
    The way I see it, Hungary’s penchant for tolerance is being used against it’s self again. Only this time, the situation was caused, as far as I’m concerned, by the same people that will be voted out in April. The same people who caused Jobbik and the Magyar Garda to be formed.
    So, you don’t want to admit that there is a situation that has escalated out of control? That’s your business. That is, until you experience it.

  • Bela

    Who said it would be expensive?
    It wont be modelled after the USA style, these prisoners will have to work for their food and if they dont produce they starve. The best treatment for psychos is treat them like psychos and then they might realise who and what they are.

  • jail bait

    @bela
    only problem is that if they are as bad as looking after themselves as the jew then they will all starve to death, and then it will be called a “death camp” and although we just want them to concentrate on making their own food and stuff, thereby distracting them from their evil ways people will begin to say even these “concentration” camps are bad. and by then we’ve done a full circle, and even though we began out just trying to rehabilite them and teach them the errors of their ways, all of a sudden we are the bad guys? I know, it doesn’t make sense right? but i think thats what will happen. and although it could be the most successful, and pioneering rehabilitation model, if they are lazy and stupid then such a system is bound to fail, perhaps one already has, somewhere, at some time. you see, the people you put in those places are no good at making anything for themselves, they can only take, and if that source of taking is cut off then they die out. and the ones who get away will have learn’t nothing, and will continue to live as psycho’s, only they will be… psycho’s with a vengance: Part Duex!

  • Dave

    Esy for the psychos prisioners the reason for death was suicide then, why complicate the situation, we will be targeted anyway by the Neo Liberals no matter what we do, so why not begin a model that will help Hungarians who are the majority not continuously feeding the leeches of this nation.

  • Farkas László

    Where there isn’t enough political will to collect taxes properly, I seriously question whether there will be the will (or the money) to prosecute and put away criminals.
    Suppose a fully implemented three strikes approach means you now have say, 200,000 new inmates to house for life. Is the present prison system able to take that on, or do new facilities have to be built? What would that cost, and what would it cost to staff them? I’m all for making prisoners work for their keep, but does their labor cover the costs? Are Hungarian prisons presently paying their own way through convict labor? If on the other hand too many of them end up dead for whatever reason, it attracts attenttion and becomes a public issue eventually. (There was a period in Hungarian history when many people could die in prisons, and you were never to question it or talk about it!)
    The training and maintenance of police, prosecuting cases and putting the criminals away is all a big financial obligation to society, and needs to be funded. But how serious are our politicians about this? If they are not serious about collecting taxes and organizing public finances to meet the need, then I’m afraid not much is going to change. When fighting criminals, we musn’t forget to go to the top of society.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    And no, I am not referring to all Gypsies; but, some Gypsies.
    No, it should not matter what colour your skin is, just your crime. And in a perfect world that would be true, but it’s not a perfect world now is it? And skin colour does play into things.
    The way I see it, Hungary’s penchant for tolerance is being used against it’s self again. Only this time, the situation was caused, as far as I’m concerned, by the same people that will be voted out in April. The same people who caused Jobbik and the Magyar Garda to be formed.
    So, you don’t want to admit that there is a situation that has escalated out of control?
    justasking at March 4, 2010 1:05 AM
    —-
    So, skin complexion makes a difference, but how?
    Are people of a certain skin-complexion more violent as such?
    First you say no (“And no, I am not referring to all Gypsies; but, some Gypsies”),
    then you contradict yourself (“And skin colour does play into things”),
    but how did that affect the old woman who died?
    -
    Blaming the Government is all too cosy, but I have earlier showed you the texts from the Hungarian Oi-band Mos-oi that 1982 (Communist-time) wrote a song that was popular in Hungary and the lyrics was about with a flame-thrower create ‘gypsy-free’ zones
    The primitive hatred against Roma has nothing to do with which Government has been in power the last year, it is part of an old tradition
    Admit and face that and you can move forward
    -
    So how fight crime?
    With Racial or Criminal Profiling?
    So far Racial is your answer

  • Elle

    @Dave
    Your posts on this thread about Prof. Penfield’s research constitute the single most interesting thing I haveread on this blog (or anywhere, in recent years). Thank you very much. The information you gave has stirred real interest in my work circle, and we are preparing a research paper that invites geneticists’ and musicologists’ comments on the viabilities of each of our several proposals about what is inferable from Penfield’s work for the purposes of illuminating the concept ‘national consciousness’.
    It is amazing how significant research can be consigned to oblivion when its findings are inconvenient. Well done, Dave, for keeping it alive.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Hi FL I’m glad you posted on this.You are, of course, right about the enormous cost of constructing and operating prisons and the greater justice system including police, courts and associated offices.The reality is that Hungary’s justice system is already hopelessly backed up, prisons are overflowing, while budgets are shrinking.I have first hand-knowledge of this, having had the opportunity to interview various staff who work in the Hungarian prison system including a commandant, prison psychiatrist, general staff and some prisoners.Making laws tougher will definitely flood an already overburdened system with more inmates, which will only make conditions worse.Worldwide, research and experience shows that the worse conditions are, the less hope there is for any kind of reform, and the more likely prisoners’ propensity towards crime will shift towards more serious offences.”…worsening prison conditions signficantly increase post-release crime, and that this increase is skewed towards the commission of violent crime.”(Chen & Shapiro,2002).The idea of running prisons as businesses sounds inviting, but in practice, savings are minimal at best, while raising other issues of increased bureacracy through monitoring and maintaining contracts etc.
    (cont)

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    Well, why do you Ladies get together at:
    -
    http://www.mcmlove.nl/english/articles/menu.htm
    -
    “Hi, I AM Marjan Meijer, a freelance journalist, I settled on the Hungarian Puszta – in the middle of nowhere – after a walkabout through Europe”
    And continues:
    ” Tears over Holland: Pim Fortuyn is dead (May2002)
    Pim Fortuyn has died for ALL of us, in order for us to awaken from our centuries old state of zombie like spiritual apathy, which has so far stood in the way of changes for the better. This cowardly assassination will create a landslide, not only political, but especially spiritual… and ALL of mankind will be touched by this… Trust the Dutch to lead the way… The assassination of Pim Fortuyn is the big turn around mankind is waiting for… is yearning for… and it has to happen… Be straight forward and be always honest to everybody and not in the least to yourself… The Apocalypse has begun… Now is the time to come to terms… More tears will be shed along the way… ‘
    This Lady lives in ‘”
    -
    Yes the Apocalypse began in 2002…
    With Bob’s interest in all Dutch things, he can probably join you Ladies?
    -
    *And* already in 2004 she published the script by Dr. László Árkay “Research of Professor W. Penfield commissioned by the Rockefeller Foundation”, which ‘dave’ so eagerly wants to share with us about ‘the “primordial human gene” and there appeared to be a second gene and that gene is Hungarian’
    .
    Yes, Hungarians are the source of it all
    Pity no one told God that

  • Ricsi

    Viking@God already knows,he is also Hungarian :)

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    The idea of putting prisoners to work also sounds inviting, but is not without drawbacks.Where prisons tender for commercial contracts eg: making phone books or car rego plates, because of the ‘captive’ work force, outside companies are not able to compete, putting non-criminals out of jobs.It’s not, however, a bad idea to develop prison work programmes for training and internal prison needs.By far, the most effective way to reduce crime, both in terms of financial and social cost, is to prevent it.Better education is the best place to start with.I can give a heap of sources that show real experience to this if you’re interested.
    -
    now I know that what I write is likely to be attacked as ‘neo-liberal rubbish’, but whatever you like to call it, the figures don’t lie.I know that being harder on criminals feels more satisfying and does help people to feel some sense of justice, however, the reality is that being too harsh just creates more problems and more criminals.Also, many criminals don’t see the connection between offence and punishment, so the lesson is lost.The problem of dealing with crime really needs to come BEFORE the crimes are committed by dealing with the social problems rather than AFTER the fact when the chances of improvement are much lower.
    -
    The business of creating ‘concentration camps’ and letting prisoners die is not worth commenting on.

  • Elle

    @ Dave
    I hope you are still here. Hiding you Penfield postings is a chief concern of the usual suspects. I shall make a point of reviving them from time to time, unless you mean to do that.

  • olga

    @ justasking
    Re: “And skin colour does play into things.”
    Yes, unfortunately it does. In Toronto and the USA for example. Not sure if where you live is “white” like small town Ontario or if it’s a large city with a high visible minority population .
    No “big news” that poverty ,lack of education, unemployment, growing up with violence in the home lead to crime. Therefore if minorities fit those circumstances more than Caucasians, then crime will be higher amongst these groups.
    Take the largest prison in either Canada and the USA and let’s see how many well educated middle class raised inmates you are going to find.
    Last night’s news carried a story that an American teenage beauty-queen was murdered by some Caucasian repeat-offender psycho. So what does that mean? White males are predators? Must be. Ted Bundy, Geoffrey Dahlmer were white too. Now 3 examples are surely reliable stats.
    Moreover, “racial profiling” can produce expected results. If a cop pulls over 100 cars driven by
    by young males and 90 of them belong to a minority group, 10 Caucasian , then most likely the one with drugs in the car will be a minority (luckily we have laws that protect people from illegal search and seizure)
    The other reason more minorities are in jail because they are poor and cannot afford expensive lawyers.
    I know this is simplifying complex issues.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Olga: Hi how’s it going?As you pointed out, the issue of racial profiling is very tricky.For sure there are all kinds of equity and rights issues that make it ‘bad’, but I can see why it happens, especially in Hungary.According to the commandant at the BAZ county prison in Miskolc, approximately 80% of his ‘guests’ are Roma, showing that right or wrong, there is such a thing as ‘Gypsy crime’.The big question, therefore, is not whether or not it exists, but what to do about it.As for the police, they are put in a position of being ‘post-crime social workers’ as well as referees and law-enforcement.They are already undertrained and under-equipped to deal with this kind of situation, and so racial profiling becomes the easiest and most obvious choice.The problem with racial profiling is that even though by averages it’s often correct, as you point out, it doesn’t do anything to change offending behaviour, but reinforces stereotypes of minority groups, and a sense in minority groups of racism etc.
    Again, the answer lies in dealing with the social issues at their core, not leaving it to corrections after the crimes have already been committed.

  • olga

    @ Cinaed
    We have a few areas in Toronto where daily shootings occur. They killings are gang related and most of the victims are gang members but ever now an then innocent people including kids get murdered in the crossfire.
    Toronto has set up “Community Policing” – police on foot or bikes patrol the area and make “friends with the kids” – they play basketball with them and generally perform a public relations job teaching kids that cops are not the enemy.
    There must be stats available as to the success of such a programme but I don’t have it because I have no direct involvement with crime prevention so I only know what I read in the papers.

  • Farkas László

    Of course what to do with violent repeat offenders is a big question, and I think three strikes legislation can be very helpful there. At some point society has to decide on whether to take any more chances on turning an individual loose. The crime and prison problem in Hungary is a symptom of a bigger issue, and that is governance, corruption and poor public administration.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    FL: Again, I agree with everything you said. Of course, I’m not suggesting that we should get rid of prisons, or that all prisoners should be put back on the streets. Certainly the protection of the public is paramount, and I do believe that the commission of a crime should involve forfeiture of some rights. I’m certainly not in the camp that sometimes seems to get so involved in prisoner rights that they forget the rights of existing past and potential future victims. The three strikes idea does have some merit, though when it’s employed in Australia, it is more that you get two chances of community based corrections and the third strike is a mandatory sentence, not necessarily life imprisonment, depending on the crime. One of the big problems as you rightly point out is administration and bureacratic incompetence. I also think that another major issue is the length of time it takes between arrest and trial.By that time, any emotional connection between the two (for the offender) is lost.Forgive the analogy, but it’s like kicking the dog for digging a hole hours after the ‘crime’ was committed. The dog has forgotten about the hole, and just thinks it’s getting abused for nothing.Most criminals don’t think about consequences when they commit crimes, and having such a huge lag between arrest and conviction only makes it worse.

  • olga

    @ Cinaed and FL
    I mentioned before that I put in mega hours for a Federal Liberal Candidate’s election campaign
    He was a lawyer and wanted to make changes in our Young Offenders’ Act (YOA no longer exists, renamed and irrelevant to this posting)
    He found it wrong to have youths convicted of really serious violent crimes to be in the same space with kids who committed non -violent crimes.
    The new legislation is a bit more “child friendly” but no by much.
    No one in Hungary seems to deny that “Roma Crime” is a problem – however if it’s true that a Roma youth murdered a 92 year old woman, he is not “cut from the same cloth” as someone stealing the neighbour’s chicken.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Olga…it is essential to separate younger, less experienced offenders of lesser crimes from older more serious and experienced offenders. I’m sure I’m not telling you anything new about the reality that prisons very easily become ‘crime schools’…especially when the focus is punishment rather than retraining/rehabilitation.
    -
    My reference to ‘Gypsy crime’ was really to reinforce my view that it is a ‘symptom’ of social issues rather than anything genetic. To say it is cultural is only half true. Again, I don’t think we disagree on that and I don’t think I’m saying anything you don’t already know.
    -
    I know that it is eminently more satisfying to react with calls for tougher sentencing and making criminals ‘pay’ for their crimes, and I don’t blame people for doing it.Actually, it’s very natural.I know if someone I loved was hurt or worse by someone else I’d probably be the same.The truth is though, it just doesn’t work.It doesn’t solve the problem, it doesn’t undo the crime and it rarely brings enduring satisfaction to the victim.

  • Bystander

    @Elle, who wrote:
    Your posts on this thread about Prof.
    Penfield’s research constitute the single most
    interesting thing I haveread on this blog (or
    anywhere, in recent years). Thank you very much.
    The information you gave has stirred real interest
    in my work circle
    “…
    -
    Seriously are you KIDDING?
    -
    Feel free to refer to my comments around this site
    about how the genetic “results” claimed in Dave’s
    post are ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to have been
    produced in the 1960s… the technology was not
    available! I have some expertise in this field
    and I will gladly take some time out to explain
    exactly the details. This has nothing to do with
    “hiding” or “burying” results… it’s just not
    POSSIBLE! It’s like talking about someone who was
    working on nuclear fission in the 1700s… it just
    didn’t HAPPEN! I will try to be polite if you
    would like me to clarify… But something tells me
    you don’t want “clarity” you want “propaganda”.
    Hope I’m wrong!
    -
    “…single most interesting thing you have read…
    ANYWHERE”?!! “…real interest in your work
    circle”?!! I’m sorry I really am not trying to
    insult you, but from where this former molecular-
    biology worker sits that really does NOT say much
    about your ‘work circle’!!! Holy Mackerel, what
    else do you discuss, “Phrenology”??!
    -
    I am available to discuss this further should you
    want me to provide further proof/evidence.

  • olga

    @ Cinaed
    You are the researcher not me but what is the explanation for the dismal failure of the Roma in Europe or First Nation people in North America assimilate into our culture?
    I read many articles about the conflict between
    immigrant children in Canada refusing to adapt to their parents’ ways and wanting to be just like theCanadian kids. Sometimes girls get murdered by their families for turning their back on religion and culture but that’s another issue.
    I am not aware of huge problems (unless the parents make it into a problem) of immigrant children in Canada assimilating into Canadian society.
    I also don’t know how many Roma babies were adopted at birth into Hungarian families and how that worked out. I do know that Native babies adopted at birth often end in failure. More so than other adoptions. ( very difficult legal procedure, the Band doesn’t want babies adopted by non-Natives)

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    According to the commandant at the BAZ county prison in Miskolc, approximately 80% of his ‘guests’ are Roma, showing that right or wrong, there is such a thing as ‘Gypsy crime’
    Cináed at March 4, 2010 2:32 PM

    I think we need to get the nomenclature correct:
    * “gypsycrime” is a political term used in Hungary to claim a genetic disposition for certain type of crimes committed by Roma
    .
    * Roma that commits crime, is something else
    Just what it sounds as, individual Roma (“real” or perceived!) that commits crimes ad hoc or are just your ‘friendly professional criminal’, where criminality is like a profession or way of life
    Not all professional criminals are Roma and not are even Hungarian (Roma or not)
    That minority groups, especially those who live in extreme poverty and are outcasts, are of course represented in a higher % of criminals
    This is a normal fact, and part of Criminal Profiling for certain poverty-related crimes
    -
    Normally if the Police wants to make a difference they focus in on the top 1-10% on the real professional criminals, basically harass them on a 24/7 schedule (how much harassment the law allows). In Sweden this have given good results with the Biker Gangs (HA, Bandidos, Outlaws, etc). Actually in the end it was the old Capone-trick = the Tax Man
    All Biker Gang Leaders are officially retired in advance due to sickness (pay a doctor), so how can they then run businesses etc?
    So now they have big fraud law suits and a cop following every step they take

  • Elle

    @ Bystander
    Thank you for your offer of co-operation. But our own university’s geneticists are handling our approach to specialists in this area. For your record: none of them appears to share your view that Penfield’s findings were impossible to produce in the ’sixties. Perhaps you should reconsider your views on this matter in the light of Dave’s post, addressed to you: March 3, 2010 6:41 PM.

  • justasking

    @ Viking;
    You know, if I knew this conversation would be going somewhere, I would continue with it. But since we both know that it won’t….why bother?
    I will comment though on this:
    “primitive hatred towards the Roma, apart of an old tradition”
    Hardly, although I’m sure that this is what you believe, because that is what you do.
    I will say, general mistrust and suspicion of Gypsies, is more of an old tradition. A well deserved one I might add. I also see how it has graduated to resentment and again, well deserved I might add.
    I will not lay all the issues at the feet of this Government regarding the Gypsies, but nor will I ignore that they have made sure that the resentment has replaced the mistrust and suspicion.
    It worked in their favour and that was their intent.
    From the conversations that I have had with people that actually remember Hungary in the 30′, 40 and 50′s, because they lived and experienced it and did not have to rely on Wiki for their info. Hungary is the same today as it was in 1944

  • wolfi

    @Bystander: This Wilder Penfield was a neurologist – nothing with genetics as far as I could find out. The links by dave are ridiculous – it’s like “Hollow Earth” and Roswell conspiracy …
    @Olga: In Germany also several Turkish/Arab girls/young women were murdered by their brothers/fathers because they showed “wrong behaviour”, like having a boyfriend or just putting on the wrong clothing or wearing lipstick …

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    Hungary is the same today as it was in 1944
    justasking at March 4, 2010 5:31 PM

    I believe that makes sense for you, but not for me
    What was so special with 1944?
    The last free Hungary (1920-1944), or what?

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Viking: yep. that’s kind of what I’m really saying…but perhaps in a different way. Again, what people call ‘gypsy crime’ could be the ‘right’ term for the ‘wrong’ phenomenon. I’m saying that to deny there is a crime problem within the gypsy community is clearly not correct. The issue though is that in recognising that there is a problem, the equally mistaken believe that it is inherently genetic just fuels the fires of racism and ultimately just perpetuates the problem.
    -
    Just the same as many sicknesses can have ‘flu like symptoms’, and yet be completely different illnesses, what we know as ‘gypsy crime’ is the right name for the wrong social ‘ill’.

  • Bystander

    @Elle,
    I DID reply to his comments in MY comment of March
    3, 2010 8:20 PM! Maybe if you read my comments
    you would see that I know quite a bit about this
    stuff.
    -
    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE report the results of your
    “geneticists” here. Perhaps I can make a bet here
    and donate the proceeds to the political party of
    my choice! I cannot WAIT to hear what sort of
    pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo you all will attempt
    to come up with to support your hypothesis that
    Hungarian gene is a “Superior Entity” (to quote
    Dave)!! Don’t you realize all this Master Race
    fake-science crap was already DONE by Hitler’s
    “scientists”?! They beat you to the punch.
    -
    All this REALLY brings into question what sort of
    “University” you claim to work at!!! What is it,
    the Third Reich University of Phrenology?
    -
    Again, read MY posts and I challenge you to come
    back with ANY sort of results that show any
    “Professor Penfield” could have any useful data in
    the modern sense of what the current state of
    “genetics” means. Maybe he tried to put together
    Gregor Mendel-style dominant/recessive trait
    gathering data, but this type of data could not
    REMOTELY begin to draw anything like the kind of
    conclusions Dave mentioned.
    -
    Enjoy your Master Race Pseudo-Scientific
    conference!! And don’t forget the last step of the
    Scientific Method is to share and distribute your
    RESULTS! I await with bated laughter. What a
    waste of everyone’s time.
    -
    Wolfi had it right… you’re sounding a lot like
    the Hollow-Earthers & “ilk”!

  • olga

    @ all
    Saw the Opera “Carmen “the other day ( I only like 2 operas so I am not trying to come across as a cultured Opera lover. My loyalty is with the Rolling Stones)
    Anyway, the opera was first seen in 1875 and based on an earlier novella somewhere around 1830
    according to the hand-out at the theater.
    Carmen was the immoral Spanish gypsy and she and her friends were portrayed as thieves.
    It’s the 3rd time I saw this opera but only this time did I pick up on the stereotyping .
    Who can I thank? The budapest.hu website of course.
    Anyway, there is a lot to be said for my wise and well researched decision to be born into a Caucasian family and not having to deal with the “minority” label in Europe or North America which are the only places where I lived. I never bought into the” adversity make you stronger” philosophy.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    Hi Olga,
    I’m about to head off to bed, and so can’t answer your question now. I’ll try to remember to do it tomorrow. What I will say briefly though is that I don’t think you can really compare Roma issues to first nation issues. While the ‘symptoms’ of minority group issues look the same on the surface, often the underlying factors are very different. (similar to what I was saying about same symptoms wrong diagnosis)
    As to the difference between immigrant children and first nation kids, again, it’s a similar issue. Not that I am all that familiar to Canada specifically but assuming its similar to Au, I’d say that generally speaking, immigrants know they’re newcomers and so feel the expectation to fit in, whereas first nation people are in a different situation. Also, prejudice within society is not uniform, and there are subtle differences in attitudes towards various different minority groups.some are accepted conditionally, others are viewed more suspiciously or are presented with higher standards before acceptance is granted…I think Europe and the Roma issue is a different kettle of fish, and I’ll try to answer that tomorrow.

  • Curious George

    @Hyacinth – I concur with Bystander, and I’ll bet you $100 (to be given to any Hungarian charity in the name of this website) that it was not scientifically possible, in the 1960′s to determine any such nonsense.

  • olga

    Curious George
    A Canadian born Black friend of ours worked in BP
    for a year and was appalled at the prejudice against Jewish and Roma in certain circles (his circle did not include ultra right wing people)
    Anyway, he felt welcomed and experienced no prejudice at all. He thought ” there were just not enough of us to make the Hungarians nervous”
    He also laughs off the number of ignorant people
    in Canada who ask him what “country he is from” because the answer is that he is 3 generation Canadian.
    BTW if you ever come across a research study that claims people born in District XIII in BP are genetically superior to every other human race on the planet, it’s true. The key to the truth is District XIII – other districts don’t qualify. (You’ll never in a million years guess where I was born)

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    Don’t you realize all this Master Race
    fake-science crap was already DONE by Hitler’s
    “scientists”?!
    Bystander at March 4, 2010 5:58 PM

    Actually Hitler’s “scientists” used very much the findings of ‘Statens institut för rasbiologi’ (SIFR, Swedish: The State Institute for Racial Biology) which was a Swedish governmental research institute founded in 1922 with the stated purpose of studying eugenics and human genetics. It was located in Uppsala and as a governmental agency, it was the world’s first of its kind
    The official assignment of the Swedish institute was to study the inhabitants of the country from a racial perspective. They studied the life conditions and environmental developments of different families. They tried to explain the biological hereditary and the effect the environment has on people. They also studied mental illnesses, alcoholism and criminality. Svenska sällskapet för rashygien (Swedish Society for Eugenics) was founded in 1909 and paved the way for SIFR
    -
    This type of research lead to several activities that are today a no-no, like forced sterilisation of people of undesired material (Roma, Same, Travellers) probably all into the 1960s
    What is know is that several Nazi-scientists visited this Institute to learn methods and results
    -
    So, as a Swede, I definitely know what I am talking about when we speak about Racial Profiling, etc

  • Curious George

    @Olga – your ‘birthplace’ comes through quite strongly on these boards. I’ll be going to District XIII tomorrow, so I’ll try and look out for that piece of research. Not sure of my chances though. However, I’m sure Pava would have a copy stored safely in his strongbox, under his bed.
    I know about the treatment towards Jews, but I don’t really know too many Roma here. I’ve only known really 2 during my time here, and both were not very comfortable speaking about Roma issues. Personally, my wife and I have not had any bad experiences in Hungary (other than these boards). We’ve always found Hungarians to be tolerant, although they can be suspicious at times. Having spent enough time in Russia and Germany during difficult times, I’m familiar with how things can go south under the wrong circumstances. I’ve personally experienced being caught in a race riot when I was young when I lived in a foreign country. I’m a bit careful now especially we get emails just before public holidays warning about possible dangers and places to avoid. The school had a couple of exchange students hurt in the riots 3 years back. In any case, I think we will probably be leaving in a year or so. We’ve always known Hungary would not be more than a temporary home. Nothing to do with Jobbo’s, but I think they’ll be thrilled, nonetheless.

  • olga

    @ Curious George
    Of my Gosh! You are a Mossad agent, How else would you possible have guessed that it was me who was born in District XIII ?
    My family lived on Vaci Ut, across a railway station that is now the West End Centre.
    Are you returning to your homeland?
    I enjoy reading your postings. I knew about foreigners getting emails from their Embassies regarding safety issues because someone else told me. I was surprised when I first heard it . It was from an American but I am sure the Canadian and all Embassies must do it.

  • wolfi

    @Olga:
    Aren’t we all Mossad agents here ?
    At least those who aren’t “agents provocateurs” – or are we the same really ?
    This somehow reminds me of Chesterton’s “Thursday” …
    You know the story ?
    To think it was written more than a hundred years ago – and Chesterton became a catholic later, just like B”liar” – strange things are happening in this “Hollow Earth” – or is it “Flat Earth” ?
    Should we ask bela or pavian for “The TRUTH” ?

  • Bystander

    @Elle,
    I can’t wait until you show up here again so we
    can talk more about Wilder Penfield’s amazing
    genetic research…
    -
    I took a few minutes to search for info about him
    – I actually recall the name after some
    refreshing about his advances in neurosurgery…
    However Google comes up with basically zilch when
    you search his name + Hungary/Hungarians +
    genetics, so I look forward with PROFOUND
    FASCINATION as to how your claim that:
    our own university’s geneticists are handling
    our approach … For your record: none of them
    appears to share your view that Penfield’s
    findings were impossible to produce in the
    ’sixties

    -
    Oh REALLY. So your fake geneticists have already
    responded to non-existent data “out there”, hm?
    -
    Please I look forward to your explaining why you
    are not just a PLAIN OLD BALDFACED *LIAR*! If you
    have the nerve to even show your face around here
    after being such a lying liar, I eagerly look
    forward to hearing how what you said before was
    not fiction concocted out of whole cloth… And
    you try to present yourself here as an “academic”!
    Are you the best Jobbik has to offer!? Please
    send the next one…

  • Curious George

    @Olga – damn, you blew my cover! It’s those Vaci Ut genes again, isn’t it. Guess, I’ll have to make preparations to leave sooner than I expected. Now which passport should I use? Maybe I’ll try the Hungarian:) one this time. No one would ever suspect that a Maygar would be ‘Jewish’!
    No, we’re not planning on going home yet. Somewhere near water would be nice. Thailand? Australia? Spain? Don’t know yet. You’re still welcome for coffee, though.
    You like my postings? Thanks. I think yours are great. I’ve saw your replies to Pava (I can only imagine what he wrote, since I didn’t read them). But, I don’t think any Hungarian ever took him on, and exasperated him as you must have. Wish I had your patience. Not quite Cinead, but still way better than me.

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    CG: I’m sure you’d be welcome in Australia. Just make sure you take your summer clothes. Anywhere from Brisbane South gets coolish in winter (about zero C), but everywhere in the country can get really hot in summer. Having said that, Australia is truly beautiful, especially the coastlines. I strongly suggest visiting New Zealand too…the climate is a bit more ‘Euro-friendly’ and the scenery is absolutely spectacular. The people are not exactly the friendliest I’ve met, especially the further south you go, but it’s still one of my favourite places.

  • Curious George

    @Cinead – Thanks. My wife and I have been to Australia before (not together), and we really liked it. I went along the Princes Highway, beautiful Great Ocean Road and also to the Grampian mountains (saw something called the Jaws of Death). That trip was one of my mother’s fondest memories. The people were really friendly everywhere, and you’re right, it was hot, even for someone who never gets sunburnt. Unlike Hungary, I promise, I’ll learn Australianese (Law’s first language:)) if we stay there for an extended period.
    I haven’t been to NZ, but I do have a cousin there who married a Kiwi. She’s been asking us to visit for a long time. My wife is afraid of heights, and she’s afraid she might fall off the edge of the world, but we’ll probably visit them too. Strange, but I’ve heard that unfriendly comment about the Kiwi’s too, from another Australian too. But, I’m sure it’s not altogether, that bad.
    Oh, yeah, forgot to mention, that we were also considering China, although, the job offer we once had in China is probably gone by now. The one place we would probably not look at, is the part of China which occasionally has acid-rain;).

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    From MTI:
    UPDATE – President signs Holocaust denial bill (adds details, background)
    3/10 11:20
    .
    URGENT – President signs Holocaust denial bill
    3/10 10:58
    .
    So, he did that this year
    What made him change his mind, since the earlier refusals?

  • Elle

    Does anyone have any insight into what is going on here? I just referred the Sólyom signing to a friend, professing puzzlement about why he signed this bill when he had earlier deemed it unconstitutional, and the Constitution has not changed since then. My friend asked whether I was aware that the EU Commission has brought down its Directive ‘EU Framework Decision on combating certain forms and expressions of racism and xenophobia by means of criminal law’, OJ L 328/55 [2008], together with the provision that it be implemented in member states by 28 November 2010. (I had long stopped watching this bloody Framework Decision, thinking that it will never be ratified.)
    Now, it’s likely that Sólyom signed the Holocaust-denial bill because this Directive made it pointless not to. But the bill itself, because it refused to include the other (commie) genocide-denial prohibition, does not satisfy Article 1(1)(c) and (d) of the Directive. Obviously, Parliament will have to come up with a new bill that is fully compliant with the Directive. But that still does not explain why Sólyom signed this bill; he could simply have thrown it as insufficient for the purpose of accommodating the Directive. (The relevant section of the Directive follows.)

  • Elle

    EU Framework Decision on combating certain forms and expressions of racism and xenophobia by means of criminal law, OJ L 328/55 [2008], Article 1(1)(c) and (d):
    (c) publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes as defined in Articles 6, 7 and 8 of the Statute of the International Criminal Court, directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin when the conduct is carried out in a manner likely to incite to violence or hatred against such a group or a member of such a group;
    (d) publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising the crimes defined in Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal appended to the London Agreement of 8 August 1945, directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin when the conduct is carried out in a manner likely to incite to violence or hatred against such a group or a member of such a group.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tBNwFngVcY bobscountrybunker

    @Elle
    How right you are. The Framework Decision…
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:328:0055:0058:EN:PDF
    …shows up the Hungarian anti holocaust denial legislation for being nothing more than the hollow politically-motivated gesture it is and always was.

  • Elle

    Bobs, yes. But the damned EU Directive has now imposed the genocide-denial law on all EU member states. The only relief is that it no longer purports that only one genocide is worthy of a denial law. For compliance with ss.(c) and (d) of 1(1), FIDĖSZ’s commie-genocide proposal should have been included in the bill that Sólyom signed into law. I cannot guess why he signed it in when he could have declined to do so on the ground that it is not Directive-compliant. The incoming government will of course have to amend that law to bring it in line with the Directive. So perhaps Sólyom thought it not worth the hassle. Or what?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    But the bill itself, because it refused to include the other (commie) genocide-denial prohibition, does not satisfy Article 1(1)(c) and (d) of the Directive. Obviously, Parliament will have to come up with a new bill that is fully compliant with the Directive
    Elle at March 10, 2010 6:40 PM

    You have read the bill?
    Can you supply a link to it?

  • Elle

    I take it on trust as reported by the media that the government refused to include the commie genocide-denial provision that FIDĖSZ wanted included. Now, please. Viking: I’m interested in this issue, but not in your view of it. Excuse me if I do not respond to more of your posts.

  • olga

    @ Viking
    Canada considers both Nazi crimes and Communist crimes on equal footing – luckily there is no neo-Communist parties in Hungary who idolize Stalin, Rakosi and their reign of terror
    Too bad the same cannot be said for Hitler.
    http://www.communistcrimes.org/en/News-Events/Latest-News/365/liberal-mps-pass-motion-to-mark-august-23rd-as-black-ribbon-day

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    @ Viking
    Canada considers both Nazi crimes and Communist crimes on equal footing
    olga at March 10, 2010 11:00 PM

    The EU framework has 2 main references:
    1) The (c)
    “publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes as defined in Articles 6, 7 and 8 of the Statute of the International Criminal Court”
    This covers all possible (?) crimes against humanity and war-crimes, none mentioned, none excluded (hopefully)
    Stalin’s forced movement of different nationalities would probably fit the bill here, and of course much that happened during the Yugoslav break-up
    -
    2) The (d)
    “publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising the crimes defined in Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal appended to the London Agreement of 8 August 1945″
    This is the victorious parties trials against the Axis powers from WWII
    -
    Any ‘Holocaust’-denial can go in on both paragraphs then it is a question of genocide
    Same thing with denying the Armenian Genocide
    -
    ‘Communist-crimes’ are a bit different, then they normally, especially in the Hungarian case, were not aimed at any specific group, just political opponents
    Political opponents are not per see regarded as a religious, racial, national, ethnic group, so here other rules have to apply

  • Pávaszem

    @Olga: “Is there a website…” I doubt there is although Tellér’s (ex MP, founding member of SZDSZ) http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell%C3%A9r_Gyula essay (Középfajú pártdráma http://bit.ly/9HlQof Nagy Világ, LIV. évfolyam, 9. szám 2009. IX. 776. oldal) comes pretty close to what you are looking for. It’s not short though at all…It also doesn’t offer any solutions, unsurprisingly, it is just a snapshot of the Hungarian political process. It also doesn’t mention that Fidesz is an SZDSZ spinoff. It started out as the youth movement of SZDSZ — like KISZ was the youth movement of MSZMP (the Communist Party’s last known name). “not verifiable like the Kiraly allegations” Let me see… ‘verifiable’ is what you want to hear, right? Verified by desire… :) “I just want to concentrate on the upcoming election issues” Why?

  • Pávaszem

    @ Wiking : “Why is the colour of the skin so important… ? … Are not criminals just that, criminals, regardless skin-complexion?” No, why is it not important to you now when it was so important with those bums that were railroaded when a couple of Gyps got snuffed instead of just Magyars? Do you know what I would LOVE to do with you, Lapp? I would LOVE to dump your dumb ass in the middle of the Hétes projects in Ózd where Mr. Solymosi was just butchered and see how long you survive. “a song that was popular in Hungary and the lyrics was about with a flame-thrower create ‘gypsy-free’ zones” It was as popular as eating dogs is popular in Sweden. 99.9% of the population hasn’t even heard of these mini-cults that you dig up and try to sell as ‘typically Hungarian.’ “Statens institut för rasbiologi… forced sterilisation… all into the 1960s” That’s right motherfucker: you did it it’s a Protestant German gig. We weren’t part of your insanity back then and we won’t be part of your equally insane guilt trip now. And we will certainly not let the Gypsies exterminate us because it would be ‘racist’ to defend ourselves. We don’t give a flying fuck about the PC or race aspect of this tragedy we just want to survive. Does that bother you spaced out, demented morons? Tough. (Have I btw told you that you disgust me?)

  • DoubleH63

    Article 19 of the UN Human Rights Charter explicitly states:
    “Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.”

  • wolfi

    And also:
    Article 29.
    * (2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
    You shouldn’t forget that “respect for the rights and freedoms of others”

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    No, why is it not important to you now when it was so important with those bums that were railroaded when a couple of Gyps got snuffed instead of just Magyars?

    Have I btw told you that you disgust me?
    Pávaszem at March 11, 2010 2:28 AM

    1) Because it was important to you, when you post after post tried to enforce on us your ‘theory’ these serial killings were just normal ‘Roma on Roma’-violence
    You, as always, make the skin-complexion important, similar to others about being a ‘jew’ or not
    -
    2) Thanks, it makes my working Sunday feel not so bad then

  • DoubleH63

    And how having an opinion and expressing that opinion about the Holocaust infringes on the rights and freedoms of others?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    And how having an opinion and expressing that opinion about the Holocaust infringes on the rights and freedoms of others?
    DoubleH63 at March 21, 2010 4:18 PM

    To deny genocide “infringes on the rights and freedoms of others”, regardless which genocide we speak about, regardless if it has got the ‘degree’ of being called ‘Holocaust’, which is just another name for genocide
    Since the end of WWII the International Laws has been re-written and many new have come
    We live in another era nowadays than pre-WWII
    Other rules apply

  • DoubleH63

    I only said “having an opinion and expressing that opinion about the Holocaust”. I didn’t say to deny it. I don’t think there are to many people who deny totally the official version of the Holocaust but there are many who question certain aspects of it.

  • Elle

    I say with Vona Gábor: ‘már a könyökömön jön ki a holokauszt!’

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    I only said “having an opinion and expressing that opinion about the Holocaust”. I didn’t say to deny it. I don’t think there are to many people who deny totally the official version of the Holocaust but there are many who question certain aspects of it.
    DoubleH63 at March 21, 2010 4:51 PM
    ===
    I say with Vona Gábor: ‘már a könyökömön jön ki a holokauszt!’
    Elle at March 21, 2010 5:26 PM
    —-
    Discussing aspects is one thing and is basically for the historically introvert, but ‘Holocaust/Genocide denial’ is a total different thing
    .
    You can always ask ‘elle/sophie/tunde’ what she thinks of the ‘Holocaust’
    She subscribes to the idea that Hitler had one big failure, he did not finish the job properly
    Even if her grandfather the Hungarian General helped out as much as he could, but they still missed a few ‘unwanted’
    And the ‘unwanted’ have now come back to haunt them

  • Elle

    Might as well begin cooking dinner, since only the chief village idiot is online.

  • Pete H.

    Disgusted,
    “And we will certainly not let the Gypsies exterminate us because it would be ‘racist’ to defend ourselves. We don’t give a flying fuck about the PC or race aspect of this tragedy we just want to survive.”
    Thankfully only a small part of Hungarian people think their survival is at stake. Most know what a remarkable country Hungary is and will work to integrate the Roma and absorb from the Roma what the wider culture finds useful and interesting. If Hungarians choose the path of integrating the Roma, instead of following a reactionary path, I believe that in 30 or so years Hungary will have its first Roma President. This decade will be looked upon as the last gasp of the old right-wing hatred. Why do I think this? Because, Maygar youth are more tolerant.
    Why do you hate Hungary that you think an underprivileged minority would be a threat to her survival? A minority that’s been part of Hungary for over 400 years. Do you really think Hungary’s cultural traditions, language, and history provide such a weak base of national stability?
    And how do you propose to deal with the Roma?
    The psychology of this fear, and hate it creates is quite predictable. We see it emerging today in the Tea Bag movement in the US. At its root is a fear of blacks and homophobia. Scared little people left behind as the rest of their culture matures and embraces diversity instead of running from it in fear. Yesterday’s outbursts at the Tea Bagger rally in Washington DC is proof of t

  • Elle

    Pete H, you are on the wrong blog! Quick, run off to Juicy, or something, and address your remarks about integration and paranoia to the Israelis. They are, as we speak, ‘defending themselves’ with a new bombing campaign against the unarmed Palestinians.

  • http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601081&sid=aF4ye33tJ.18 lopott holmi vissza jár

    Pete H, you are on the wrong blog! Quick, run off to Juicy, or something, and address your remarks about integration and paranoia to the Israelis. They are, as we speak, ‘defending themselves’ with a new bombing campaign against the unarmed Palestinians.
    Elle at March 21, 2010 6:35 PM
    ——————-
    It is always nice to get a lecture on racism and tolerance from those who stand with the racist, brutal, war criminal country of Nazi Israel. I take special offense when these masters of hate and mass murder accuse others of hate.
    HUNGARIANS SHOULD TAKE A VERY CLOSE LOOK AT THE TREATMENT OF PALESTINIANS BY NAZI ISRAEL. It is no wonder that the mű-isralei Avigdor Lieberman, a Russian Jew and Israeli minister of foreign affairs, rejected that the 24-month peace plan. There are so much more Palestinian women and children to murder and so much more Palestinian land to steal that 24 month is just not enough to carry out their racist genocidal plan.
    These mű-israleis should stop lecturing Hungarians who only want to live as Hungarians in their own country. They do not murder little children by the hundreds and call it self-defense as the mű-isralei do.

  • Pete H.

    Oh poor Elle and BJ,
    You really do have small little minds.
    Why do you always have to fall back on bashing Israel when someone makes a statement about Hungary?
    Stick to the subject if you can handle it.
    For the record I have never defended Israel actions in Palestine and have always felt the relationship of the US with Israel was too biased towards Israel. Given our level of military support for Israel, we should have a lot more say.
    However, I do not conflate my dislike of the Israeli government policies with a general hatred of all people and things Jewish or even Israeli. I’ll leave that kind of simpleminded reactionary thinking to the two of you.
    So once again do any of you have a viable solution to dealing with the Hungarian Roma?
    And do you really believe such a strong culture as Hungary’s is threatened by an underprivileged minority?

  • Elle

    ‘So once again do any of you have a viable solution to dealing with the Hungarian Roma?’
    I do not, personally. But JOBBIK does. You should read its election manifesto. Interestingly, no state seems to have found a way of integrating the Gypsies. Can you think of any that has? Central European Gypsies, particularly Romanian ones, have tried to settle in Italy and Ireland. Italian authorities regularly bulldoze their settlements. Nothing even remotely resembling this has ever happened in Hungary.
    Romanian Gypsies have tried twice to settle in Ireland, once in 2007, in quite small numbers. Somehow, the Irish managed to send them home. They tried again more recently, towards the end of last year, in some hundreds. They found themselves fleeing for their lives, and asking to be returned home. They were flown back, pretty rapidly, as far as Hungary. And they did not turn up, upon Irish investigation, in Romania. So, they stayed in Hungary.
    Why do you think Gypsies are in Hungary in such large numbers – usually estimated to be 7%-10% of the population? Is it because Hungary is the worst of places or the best of places for them? And if it is the worst of places, why do they not go to better ones? Remember, EU membership guarantees the freedom of movement of peoples in member states.
    And do you really believe such a strong culture as Hungary’s is threatened by an underprivileged minority?’
    No-one has ever suggested that our culture is threatened by anybody. (Again, you will have to go to Israel to find the siege-mentality you wrongly attribute to Hungarians.) But we certainly will not tolerate Gypsy lawlessness. Nor will Jews run our country. But, as I said before, you should be turning your attention to Israel. At least you have a connection with that country. You have none with ours.

  • DoubleH63

    Viking,
    Here is a quote from an English philosopher and MP which sums up pretty much what I think of these “ Holocaust Denial” and “Hate Speech” laws.
    “We can never be sure that the opinion we are endeavoring to stifle is a false opinion;
    and if we were sure, stifling it would be an evil still.”
    John Stuart Mill

  • Advocate

    Why deny the holocaust? It happened. The Russians had their own version of it too. But it is seldom mentioned. Why?
    How anyone would want to deny the murder of millions of Jews and others in nazi concentration camps is a mystery.
    My city was bombed to the ground by the Luftwaffe
    and my father’s brother was killed in the war.
    He was a survivor from a torpedoed ship and as he made his way up the beach the Japanese bayoneted him.
    There were other deaths in the family and my father’s six brothers all lost six years of their lives fighting the nazis.
    I don’t think holocaust denial should be criminalized. Any one who denies it is insane.
    Let’s here from the “deniers” because then we know straight away they are the new nazis.
    I just feel very uncomfortable at the necessity to ban something seventy years after the event.
    We forgave Germany but have not forgotten Hitler and his henchmen.: including Albert Speer and Karl Doenitz.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    They were flown back, pretty rapidly, as far as Hungary. And they did not turn up, upon Irish investigation, in Romania. So, they stayed in Hungary.

    Remember, EU membership guarantees the freedom of movement of peoples in member states
    Elle at March 21, 2010 8:16 PM

    Why were they flown back to Hungary if they were Romanian citizens?
    “flown back” means that they did not travel back voluntarily and if they were expelled they would have been returned to their home country

    Freedom of movement, but *not* freedom of settlement in the sense that you always need top provide means for your survival
    If you do not have sufficient means, or cannot show that to the authorities, they can expel you.
    So other countries Roma cannot come to Hungary and claim benefits, that is a pipe dream, that some people smugglers earn money on
    At the moment some Roma from Serbia is making their way into some parts of Western Europe on organised trips. They are getting ripped off by unsubstantiated promises of money and work where they will arrive, but will most likely need to return home after paid a lot of money for these ‘trips’

  • Pete H.

    Elle,
    “No-one has ever suggested that our culture is threatened by anybody.”
    Yes, they have. Both on this site and in speeches by right-wing politicians.
    Disgusted wrote: “”And we will certainly not let the Gypsies exterminate us because it would be ‘racist’ to defend ourselves.”
    Not let the Gypsies exterminate us – how is that not feeling threatened.
    And I have heard the same sentiment to a greater or lesser degree many times before.
    In Jobbik’s platform we have this language: “The continuation of the Gypsy
    people’s circumstances along their current course is nothing short of a potential time-bomb, and if it is not subject to concerted intervention, our mutual home could sink into a state of virtual civil war.”
    Yeah, if the Garda keeps marching into Roma neighborhoods.
    It sucks for the Roma pretty much everywhere in Europe. This blog is about Hungary and I was trying to discuss the shitty plight of Roma in Hungary. But, as usual I get some version of deflection.
    Roma in Hungary face intense job discrimination, the worst of schooling, severe unemployment, and racist violence. Where is the, I am Roma and so glad to be in Hungary in that?
    Besides the Roma are Hungarian – the vast majority speak Hungarian, have incorporated much of Hungarian culture into their own, and have no wish to or the means to leave the country of their birth.
    I did read Jobbik’s rather weak Manifesto, and the part that dealt with the Roma was little more than a law and order platform.

  • Elle

    ‘Besides the Roma are Hungarian’ (!!!!)
    Pete H. at March 21, 2010 10:04 PM
    I think you will find that the Romanian, Russian, Slovak, Czech, etc. Gypsies will correct you on that. Only some Gypsies are Hungarian. And do you know why you think Gypsies are Hungarian? It is because you have heard of Hungarian Gypsy music. Now, which other nation has adopted Gypsies to quite this extent? Which other nation’s music academies have quite such a disproportionately large Gypsy population? That is, who is as good as we are at promoting an enduring Gypsy talent? Also, look around upmarket restaurants and other entertainment venues in Hungary. Who are the musicians in them? In these times of high unemployment (over 10% and rising) in Hungary, proportionately, the Gypsies are the best employed. I am not here referencing the feral among them who run around murdering old ladies with wooden spoons, or knifing people (mostly their own), nor quaffing and peddling drugs, nor pick-pocketing tourists. For those, what you call the ‘law and order platform’ is highly appropriate. Why is there no such platform, nor any platform for Gypsy betterment, of the present government? Now, ask yourself that. And try to answer honestly. But you know nothing about Hungary. You are only mouthing the Jewish line on Hungarian Gypsies. You lot persist in thinking they are your best asset against Hungary.
    But Vona Gábor has you there. He has proposed that the Hungarian Gypsy problem be considered a European, not a Hungarian, problem. Deafening silence followed that one. Now that I think of it, why not help us solve our Gypsy problem by giving them, an itinerant people, the right to be itinerant throughout the EU? They should be entitled to receive unemployment benefits payments wherever they go. Do you think EU member countries will come at that one?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU&feature=related Viking

    They should be entitled to receive unemployment benefits payments wherever they go. Do you think EU member countries will come at that one?
    Elle at March 21, 2010 11:21 PM
    —-
    Why should the Roma be different treated than any other minority in Hungary?
    And Peter meant the Roma that have lived in Hungary for at least 600 years are to be called Hungarian, not the Russian or Finnish ones
    I hardly think your family has lived in Hungary so long, especially given your blue blood
    Most Hungarian aristocracy was imported from western Europe, you know the rich foreign bastards that come to Hungary and by up the land

  • http://www.never-a-protege.webs.com.au Cináed

    “He (Vona) has proposed that the Hungarian Gypsy problem be considered a European, not a Hungarian, problem.[...]Now that I think of it, why not help us solve our Gypsy problem by giving them, an itinerant people, the right to be itinerant throughout the EU? They should be entitled to receive unemployment benefits payments wherever they go.”
    -
    Actually Elle, I don’t disagree with you on that. If one of the aims of the EU is to break down barriers and increase a sense of community and respect for cultures, then yes. …and I’m not being sarcastic. It would take one hell of a cooperative effort to set up such a system…and would require governments (and people) of all participating states to share information and resources, and allow such a lifestyle though; which I realise runs counter to the strong sense of attachment to land that many European cultures have. I also think it would be really hard to get many Roma to go back to the traditional itinerant lifestyle though. After centuries of being pressured (in various degrees) to give up this part of their culture, it is not something they would just take to overnight. Just as a lot of Magyar history and culture has been stolen, erased, or otherwise lost, the Roma people have also suffered a profound loss of history and culture, which I think is why so many see them as having no culture at all. …and yes, I agree, kudos to Hungary for taking on Gypsy music.

  • Trojan

    Some gypsies have made good. Settled into the system and run businesses, become leaders in their own community.
    Ordinary Hungarians (Roma et al) struggle to make a living at the moment. Petty crime in villages is a problem. The church organist has fell victim three times and he is a tad bitter about it.
    On two occasions gypsies were arrested. But I believe it was only vegetables they stole.
    What is gypsy music? Gypsy musicians are very good, undoubtedly.
    Gypsy culture I am not so sure about. Many Roma struggle with settling down to routine life and having to go to school etc. I can understand this.
    The idiots who blame Hungarians for gypsies living in poverty etc are misinformed and would do better to cease making these false accusations.

  • http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601081&sid=aF4ye33tJ.18 lopott holmi vissza jár

    Let’s here from the “deniers” because then we know straight away they are the new nazis.
    Advocate at March 21, 2010 9:32 PM
    There are deniers and deniers of all kinds and shapes. Those who deny Communist crimes and the holocausts perpetrated by the Communists in the former Soviet Union and in Eastern Europe are also deniers. The current denier law, passed by the Jewish/Communist MSZP/SZDSZ coalition is a Jew law because it values only Jewish lives. It makes no mention of Communist crimes because many members of MSZP and SZDSZ were formerly members of Communist MSZMP responsible for the Hungarian Holocaust.
    Speaking of “new nazis”, you need to go to Israel to see the “new nazis” at work. Their treatment of Palestinians is very similar of Nazi Germany’s treatment of Jews. Some say, they are worse.
    The sad truth is that all this holocaust business has nothing to do with remembering the victims of Communist and Nazi atrocities. It is about the “new nazis”, the Israeli Nazis, and Jewish Nazis everywhere covering whatever horrible thing they commit with the “holocaust card”.
    While I do not believe a lot of the claims and new and new twists to the holocaust story, it is not about denying it but it is rather getting sick and tired of Jews using it to get away with stealing, murdering, and getting a free get out of jail “holocaust card”. They are the ones who smear the memory of their own people. Most others do not care to deny or bother with it. Just get over all the atrocities or remember them all, Communist and Nazi atrocities.
    Fidesz is expected to modify the law to include Communist crimes also.

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