As a mass, grassroots party, in terms of rally attendance Jobbik is going to punch well above its weight that it does in the actual polls.

The point of all this relocation is to not make it quite so obvious how much smaller the attendance at the other two parties' events are going to be.
The moving of the Fidesz event away from the Erzsébet Híd Pesti hídfő, to the much much smaller Dóza György tér is a case in point.

"As a mass, grassroots party, in terms of rally attendance Jobbik is going to punch well above its weight that it does in the actual polls."

Their attendance will be under reported as always...

"As a mass, grassroots party"
Well you just order out your Magyar Garda cohort, in plain clothes, and call that 'the people'
The smell will still be there
-
Is it not obvious that MSZP invites you to come and disturb them?
Now you will have ample time between 14 and 15 to move from Pilvax to Deak
Even my old mother would make that stretch in less than one hour
So MSZP will get the violent attacks, which will increase their kernel voters to go to the polls and rightly or wrongly Jobbik will be blamed for it
On the other side of the bridge, Fidesz will stand and shake its collective head at the losers on Pest-side

On the other side of the bridge, Fidesz will stand and shake its collective head at the losers on Pest-side
Viking at March 4, 2010 4:51 PM
-----

Now that'sinteresting... So you've decided not to back the has-beens of the MDF after all then Viking?

Just like a rat to leave a sinking ship, isn't it pal?

So you've decided not to back the has-beens of the MDF after all then Viking?
bobscountrybunker at March 4, 2010 6:38 PM
---
Well, details have never been bob's strong side:
"The small conservative Democratic Forum told MTI it is not planning a street-event on March 15. The party's supporters will mark the holiday on March 13 in the Buda Castle and Democratic Forum MPs will lay wreaths by a freedom-fighter's memorial on March 15"
-
http://www.politics.hu/20100303/parties-to-hold-campaign-rallies-in-budapest-on-march-15-national-holiday
-
So I do not need to chose, not like our normal hooligans, who know will have to split forces much more:
* Screaming abuse at the MSZP-rally
* Throwing eggs at Demszky
* Waiving Arpad-flags at the Fidesz-rally

Seems that they are relocating to avoid being associated with the far right fascists.

Like the tea-party rallies in the USA, I think there will be some great opportunities to get some images from the Jobbick rally that will open people's eyes to the extremists it attracts.

@Pete H.
Interestingly, no Jobbik rally, has ever been associated with any violence whatsoever. Jobbik, I'm sure, would welcome, very much, as much media exposure of their events as possible.

But curiously enough this doesn't happen.

You can go to a rally with 20,000 people, come back home, switch on the TV, and see the news cover it for perhaps 5 seconds. Do you think this brevity of news reporting happens because of the extremism that happens there? I can tell you that they are attended by scores of camermen. Or is it rather, you don't get the coverage, because that "exremism" just doesn't happen?

Another delightful little technique they have is getting the news cameraman to focus as tight as possible on the face of the person speaking at the podium, so you never get to see the thousands upon thousands at the event.

So if you are asking for more exposure I'm certain Jobbik would wholeheartedly agree with you.

And if you have the time, feel free to have a look at the English language version of the Jobbik manifesto that came out today. From what I can see it's an identical translation of their concise program.
http://jobbik.com/temp/Jobbik-RADICALCHANGE2010.pdf
Hungarian parties tend to print two, a long and a short, this is the short.

Have a good hard read of it. And feel free to come back here and quote any "extremism" watsoever you may find in it. Go on.

Give it a try.

@ Bobs;

Well, I actually printed of this manifesto, all 24 pages. I have skimmed through it and will actually sit down & study it this weekend.

The impression that is given on this site, is that Jobbik is a ultra-right-winged political party. But are they really?

So, what I would like to propose (and I know that it is not a Leap Year and therefore women should not be proposing, but what the Hell) why not go through this manifesto, issue by issue, topic by topic, and give our opinions/interpretations on it?

Lets finally call a spade a shovel and either show that yes, Jobbik is in fact what they claim to be "The Movement for a better Hungary" for ALL Hungarians OR what some people accuse them of being "A wolf on sheep's clothing". Considering only SOME people Hungarian.

Why not?

Lets throw out a bone and see what turns up. At the very least, everybody, whether posting on this site or just reading it, will be fully educated on Jobbiks position and outline once and for all. Imagine, no more guessing games and false assumptions.

What do you think?

@Bobs - Thanks, that was very helpful.

Bobs:ditto on the thanks...I'll try to have a read through tonight.

Why bother to read the English or Hungarian version of Jobbik program when we have our village idiots with their “Hungarian wives” and Lendvai the “Botox Woman” to tell us all about Jobbik? Who needs facts when we have these clowns to entertain us?

@ justasking

Excellent plan, Zsuzsa. And bobs did really well to spot the translation and post it. (I toyed with the idea of translating the Hungarian text myself. Thank goodness I did not jump the gun on that one. JOBBIK really is on the ball. I was not aware that it had plans to produce the real McCoy.)

@ BIG JIM

Now, come on! Let's be done with the spectator sport. Then again, the players might now be funnier still. I predict one of their new acts: Jobbik is 'just saying' this. Its real intentions are what the village idiots know they are.

The Jobbik programme (in English):

It's even worse than I had expected. Full of nationalistic and right-wing cliches that appeal to the baser instinct. Typical examples:

Prisons which are financially self-sustaining: Liberal practise has guaranteed the legally sentenced criminal,with establishments that not only allow them to pass the time without the need to work, but are frequently ...

Neither the political crimes of the carnation [the emblem of the MSZP], nor the orange [the emblem of Fidesz], nor any other party can continue to remain ...

Jobbik’s attitude towards social welfare is based on a Christian social foundation: namely, that the state should only intervene once individual, and family, opportunities have been exhausted.

Sounds all very nice, a lot of "good" words:

Family, Christian, ...
And so it goes on and on ...

This is better but one village idiot with one “Hungarian wife” is not enough. We need the other village idiot with his “Hungarian wife” to get the complete, unbiased and undisputable preview of Jobbik’s program. Where is our vájking?
We could ask Law and Elle, the only voting Hungarians on the list for their opinions but that would be too easy. We want people who have absolutely no connection with the Hungarian spirit other than their “Hungarian wives” to tell us what is right for Hungary and Hungarians. Who would dare argue with these village idiots with their “Hungarian wives” tell us that Jobbik’ program is bad?
Not even BIG JIM is smart or stupid enough to argue with the village idiots with their…

@Bobs...: On page 11 of the redacted English version, under "Gypsy Issues" (not a translation of the original title 'Vissza a cigányútról', by any means), 'Cigány' is referred to as endonym used by Roma themselves. This, of course, should have read 'exonym' as all official language uses this term and as with 'niggah/niggas' in American English it is used only as a form to weaken its meaning and not be possessed by the negative connotations with which the out-group wish to stigmatise.

Even if you argue over the words impact, technically 'gypsy' is an exonym and not endonym.

Do no quail, BIG JIM. We now have JOBBIK's worst fault identified by one h-wifer: JOBBIK dares to have 'Family, Christian' concerns. Terrible, this; so 'nationalistic and right-wing'; worse than one h-wifer expected.

Who needs facts when we have these clowns to entertain us?
BIG JIM at March 5, 2010 10:28 AM

@BJ - My Hungarian friend actually would. He is non-political, but I think he would actually vote for Jobbik if they gave him the answer to a question which has been bugging him.
Q. Under Jobbik, would he need to pay more for any goods or services he uses right now, and how much disposable income (in HUF) he could expect to have in his pocket every month. He earns about HUF 180K.

This Jobbik programme is so funny:

Our homeland, situated in the very centre of Europe and at a strategic point of impact, requires a fighting force consisting of a standing army 40,000 strong, increasable as necessary by a reserve fighting force of 10,000; in addition to which, the protection of the country’s hinterland necessitates the creation of a territorial defence entity some 20,000 – 22,000 persons strong.

Who would want to mount an offensive to the "Hungarian hinterland" ?

What about the EU - they don't want it, it seems - so does Jobbik want to leave it ? So they want those forces to defend themselves from the EU or from their neighbours ?

Ridiculous - but fun to read - like "Europe and Russia". So Russia is not part of Europe ?

Will Hungary no longer be a part of Europe under Jobbik rule ?

It gets stranger and stranger ...

@Vándorló
As I said this is not a translation of the longer 88-page program, but the concise 24-page program, where "Vissza a cigányútról" doesn't feature.So it is accurate, you are just not comparing it to the right document.

Don't pretend that "Cigány" is an exonym. The National Gypsy Authority presided over by the serially-accused-of-corruption, Orbán Kolompár, is not titled the "Országos Roma Önkormányzat" is it?

No. It is the Országos Cigány ÖnkormányzatÍ/b>, isn't it?

It is wholely accurate to say that the whole Hungarian population and the Roma of Hungary themselves, use the word Cigány to refer to them. (Saying that it equates to the N-word is a lie. And a poltically motivated one at that.) And that "Roma" is only used for politically correct motives on TV.

There is an interesting question here though, about whether a correct word, can be given a negative connotation solely because it is successively used in a negative context. To which I would ask you to think why it is so often used in a negative context.

In addition, I would very much prefer it that instead of wasting all your, and our, time on a philological study of the word Cigány you actually have a go at telling us what you find objectionable about any of the policy suggestions in the Jobbik manifesto about the Gypsy issue.

Just a suggestion.

So sorry folks, I forgot to close a tag.

@wolfi
I don't think I'm te only one getting a little tired with this.

You post here, time after time, about extremism. Again and again. Yet not one single thing you have posted here from the Jobbik manifesto is anything extremist.

In fact you have, rather dishonestly, downgraded your classification of extremism to stuff you just consider silly.

This is not good enough I'm afraid.

You are the big person yelling "Neo-Nazi" all the time. Well, the time has come for you to put up or shut up. Please provide us with an ACTUAL reference from the ACTUAL Jobbik manifesto ANYTHING that is ACTUALLY extremist.

@ justasking

Would it be possible for you to explain to your friends that it's normal to criticize the political party you don't support? It is called living in a Democratic country.

I understand your support for the Conservatives in Canada, lots of my friends voted for them and they won the election fair and square. I believe if an election was called today, they would win and the Liberals know it. I may not be happy about it, but respect the will of the majority.

In the meantime, the Liberals should get their act together and win the election next time around.

Now another condemnation of JOBBIK's election manifesto, from the same h-wifer: JOBBIK wants to re-establish the Hungarian army, the very body that our delightful governement has scuppered so admirably. Terrible, this! How dare JOBBIK look to Hungarian national security? (I cannot work out what he wants to say about Russia and the EU. This is probably because his English language skills and powers of comprehension are not up to understanding what JOBBIK said.)

And Vándorló has decreed that 'technically "gypsy" is an exonym and not endonym'. It's a pity that Gypsies themselves do not seem to know that, for they do keep on calling themselves Gypsies, although the politically correct and exonymous 'Roma' has been put to them so pressingly.

The other village idiots have gone to ground, preferring to fill the board with 'mgreen1955s' and 'SveaMagyars'. And boy, are they spitting! No reference to the JOBBIK manifesto there.

Boy George, are you trying to outdo the village idiots with their h-wives? Show me any program that has the answer to your question. Not even a sober kemal could give you the answer.

@Bobs..: Fair points all. I've already said elsewhere that I find it remarkable that Jobbik have the most articulate Roma policy of all the parties. In particular the fact that they at least claim that they want to put an end to token employment policies still followed by MSZP and repeated in their manifesto. I also stated (on ESBalogh's blog) that my one main objection is the policy which supports continuing segregation in education. As part of which I did also state that the MSZP and SZDSZ have effectively enforced and supported segregation in education which has resulted in Hungary being taken to the EU courts over this issue.

No, overall, Jobbik's policy is clearly stated and it is up to people to decide if this is the country they want. There's plenty left out and plenty glossed over, but they've done a better job than most.

Where they fail to outline their policy is on clear statements regarding economic goals. Of course from their largely Marxist description of their economic vision it is pretty easy to extrapolate, but I won't since it'll just be denied.

On economic policy this is were the MDF have concentrated pretty much all their manifesto - which of course I prefer - but we all know the ridiculous state of MDF's needless entanglement with the SZDSZ carpetbaggers. By an equal extent, I'd say MDF fail on the social vision.

And as with your repeated gripe about coverage of minor parties, I think this is pretty much true for any party that isn't MSZP or Fidesz.

@BJ - Elections 2008. I saw a Democratic Party flyer dividing the population into 3 or 4 bands, stating the difference (+/-) how much each group would pay in taxes. I think a similar flyer for Jobbik would help, especially considering the current state of the economy.
I'm just curious, what this attraction h-wives have for village idiots?

@Bobs...: I forgot to mention, have you seen this latest analysis of the Jobbik support base conducted by Forsense: http://gondola.hu/cikkek/70078

For those who don't read Hungarian, apologies, but briefly it shows a polarisation between Fidesz and Jobbik support which were once much more deeply overlapping. Jobbik could still potentially steal 300,000 Fidesz voters.

The types of people who support Jobbik can be pretty much divided into two main groups 1. that that support their 'radical' policies 2. those that wish to scare the shit out of the established oligarchy.

Jobbik continue to win the hearts and minds of the younger electorate as MSZP support fossilises in the over 60s. A typical Jobbik supporter is increasingly young, uneducated and from the rural community.

Lots more info in the report. Bet you wished you studied Hungarian more now!

@ Olga;

What do you want me to do? I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to focus on the posts that what to talk about this "document".

Look, I just thought that it would be a good idea. Here we have a manifesto from a Political party, this is a political site, and election is coming up.

Instead of arguing about Ladies rolls in assisting men in becoming gentlemen or who's a "real Hungarian", that this would be sorta fun.

I wonder if we could find some other similar type outlines from the other parties that are running.

Vándorló,

I have to agree with this assessment: "The types of people who support Jobbik can be pretty much divided into two main groups 1. that that support their 'radical' policies 2. those that wish to scare the shit out of the established oligarchy."

Generally those that fall into the first group are the ones who attend the rallies and participate in voter drives, leave comments here, etc. I assume the majority of Jobbik's support in the voting booths comes from the second group, in a case similar to Le Pen's surprise showing in 2002 or perhaps to somewhat of a lesser extent the BNP's success last year in the EP elections. What will be quite revealing is the difference in support for Jobbik in the first and second rounds of the elections next month.

@Vándorló
That's a much fairer, and more level-headed assesment. And thanks for the Forsense study too.

I can only state that I cannot imagine any other Hungarian party doing what Jobbik have done, in publishing this. And I would in fact chide Erik a little. This is extremely important news internationally and deserves the widest distribution. After all we still see stuff on the dead and buried SZDSZ here every other day almost. Surely the provision of information on what is likely to be the next 3rd party in Hungary is newsworthy? But because it's not just a copy of something produced by MTI or Hungary Around the Clock, the revelation of this English program will not have its own article and the syndication that goes with it. We shall just have to discuss it amongst ourselves.

The program is, I can only hope, an indication that more sober heads are prevailing within Jobbik as they are being drawn to the party as its population is growing. This is what I hoped would happen.

@ justasking

I would like you to tell your friend to take a Valium when someone disagrees with a JOBBIK policy

Did you see Vandorlo's comment: "Jobbik's policy is clearly stated and it is up to people to decide if this is the country they want. "

He also wrote yesterday that FIDESZ has not outlined its economic policy and reading between the lines from other posters' opinions, I am getting the impression that Orban is hiding behind his Mother's skirts and not ready to be coaxed out yet. But that's just my impression.

Regarding your comment about "Instead of arguing about Ladies rolls in assisting men in becoming gentlemen ... etc" - I don't know about you, but I never considered it my role in life to train men. One more responsibility for women and then get blamed when things turn out wrong? No thanks.

"similar type outlines from the other parties that are running." would be great. Getting back to election issues would be a novel idea.

The original covering article on jobbik.com from where I got the .pdf download.
Jobbik releases 2010 English language manifesto

@Elle,
So you *are* still here... just hiding from this
page?
http://www.politics.hu/20100223/hungarian-mps-
criminalize-holocaust-denial#c258
-
Where you were called out for "fibbing" about
having a team of geneticists already on the case
about your pseudo-scientific "Master Race"
conference or something?
-
I look forward to hearing from you considering how
strident you were yesterday on the topic... Do
facts always make you run for the hills like that?
Sorry to jump threads, but I saw you over here
dodging questions over there...
-
Thanks in advance for your kind reply.

"Jobbik also considers it important to welcome those American Hungarians, who have preserved their awareness of their national origins, back into Hungarian public life"
---
Funny remark to have in a party program, but as 'Van The Man' pointed out, if you like them vote for them
But why is not SweaMagyar welcome back?
(And he is not a product of my imagination, he probably studies balder.org (Danish hate-site) every day)
Why single out a limited set of "American Hungarians" (does that include Mr Farkas or not)?
.
I just checked out the 'Foreign Affairs Policy" a bit fast, when I have time I may comment on others part, then I notice Mark/Tünde are so eager to hear what I have to say
-
I do notice though in the discussions here, that 'bob' finally came out with some criticism levelled at the Mark/Tünde-type of characters
I really never understood how 'bob' could stand those figures.
'bob' is a bit more "Westernised" (if the expression is excused) in his approach (= it is Islam, not the Jews that is the big threat to Europe)
Probably exist a reason for that

Boy George, maybe you are serious about your question but that only shows how naïve you are about campaign promises. If you asked the same question of a Fidesz or MSZP insider, you would probably get an answer to make you vote for them. The best example of how little trust one should put into campaign promises is Gyurcsany’s infamous “őszödi beszéd” where he admitted that everything the Communist said were lies only to get elected. Fidesz learned from the Communists’ fiasco, not enough and they are much more cautious about their promises than they used to be.
My suggestion to a Hungarian voter is to read Jobbik’s program and see what they would do if they were running things. Decide if their program is beneficial for the Hungarian program and not look for specific promises. I do not trust politicians who promise to give this or that to people. There are numerous safeguards in Jobbik’s rules to prevent the kind of corruption and abuses common with the current parties in Parliament. The Communist MSZP/SZDSZ government and their insiders are probably the most corrupt group that Hungary has ever seen. Fidesz is much better but not as clean as they would like us to believe. Jobbik is squeaky clean for a number of reasons. If one of theirs accused of a crime, they part with them while the Communists pull the “innocent until proven guilty” line. That is only valid for ordinary people but the public should not have to endure the stink of politicians accused of crimes while these same politicians are making laws for the rest of us. The Communist think they can get away with it but they do not. Their corruption eroded their support and it is very likely that Jobbik will wipe the floor with them.
On this list, we see nothing about all the MSZP/SZDSZ politicians and insiders who are coming under investigation and who are arrested in large numbers.
All of these I am telling you are waste of my time and your time because only Law and Elle are the Hungarian voters on this list. Only what they think that matters. The village idiots may be useful for entertainment and at times may be irritating but they count for nothing.

What I would like to see addressed is a plan or program to tap the loyalties and resources of overseas Hungarians and their numerous descendents, a great many of whom have not forgotten their heritage and would jump at the chance to re-connnect with Hungary in some way, even when they are three or four generations removed from their mother country.

When we look at the size of the Hungarian diaspora, spread as it is over many nations and continents over several generations, we can assume that we are looking at a target group whose net worth easily runs into many billions of Euros! Indeed, the net worth of Hungarian descended people abroad may rival the GDP of Hungary itself!

Given these facts, it would be sensible policy indeed to ask how such a pool of human and monetary resource can be tapped. I have long advocated such a course of action here in the past, and I repeat my call for constructive action on this front. I welcome ideas and intiatives from all the political parties on this issue.

(cont)

(cont)

I would suggest a marketing campaign to attract this group to come to Hungary as: tourists, investors (in Hungarian firms and securities) and business partners. For those that can't come, they can be reached out to for donations to Hungarian charities, or as buyers of Hungarian stock and bonds. Retirees, who are recieving old age compensation which can be sent to them anywhere, can also be encouraged to live in the country. Many other countries benefit from such arrangments, why not Hungary?

Foreign Hungarians can also be solicited to remember Hungarian universities, schools, museums and charities in their wills and to leave a legacy. That alone could bring in untold millions!

Hungary can also follow the example of other European countries like France and Germany, which fund educational and cultural centers worldwide for the purpose of teaching the language and culture to anyone interested.

I would also suggest that summer youth programs be set up for the children of foreign Hungarians to live in Hungary. I can assure you that many foreign Hungarians would be happy to send their kids to take advantage of such programs. It would enable an upcoming generation to feel a connection and love for the land of their ancestors. Hopefully, it could turn into a love affair that can last a lifetime.

I feel these are doable, constructive ideas, and other countries are already doing them. All that's needed is leadership.

Boy George asks “I'm just curious, what this attraction h-wives have for village idiots?”
I almost missed that. Sadly, it is economics but I need to qualify it some. It is economics only for some Hungarian girls while most of them would choose poverty with another Hungarian than a comfortable living with a foreigner.
Hungarian girls who marry foreigners make it a project, learn some English, frequent places foreigners frequent and adopt attitudes that make them attractive to foreigners.
I can also see situations where it is for love but that would be the exception.

I think FL has an extremely good point idea
there... As an example of one living in the
"diaspora" a few generations removed from that
part of my family history, I agree that there
might be a lot to be gained by a little thoughtful
harnessing of the extended Hungarian "family"
overseas.
-
With perhaps the right targeted marketing, I'd bet
that a good amount of interest could be generated
at the very least in tourism for those who would
like to visit their "ancestral lands" and maybe
even eventually encourage more re-connection from
overseas folks could lead to helpful investment
and even maybe other kinds of support that perhaps
is under-utilized at present.
-
I for one had never thought of visiting Hungary
until recently, but the more I get to *know* about
it (barring a few individuals) the more it makes
me think about ways to spend my money over there!

Now Vándorló and a new poster, Zoltan, seem to have decided that there is nothing much to ridicule in JOBBIK, so it is its supporters that have to be disparaged. Vándorló, funnily enough, does not find the Forsense report to which he directs this board as disparaging as he feels it should be. So he tells us that ‘A typical Jobbik supporter is increasingly young, uneducated and from the rural community’. The Forense report if fact said this:

'The support base is young, male, and increasingly rural.'(A bázis fiatal, férfias és egyre inkább vidéki’.)
http://gondola.hu/cikkek/70078

I may be mistaken, but isn't the Zoltan who posts here, the same person who wrote the original article for this thread?

@Vándorló & Zoltán
"The types of people who support Jobbik can be pretty much divided into two main groups 1. that that support their 'radical' policies 2. those that wish to scare the shit out of the established oligarchy."
-----

I too concure that this analysis is accurate, but it is also, extremely outdated. It is, I feel, an accurate description of Jobbik's reasons for such a good showing at the EP elections, not, their subsequent growth.

What they then chose to do, was build on this base and the intellectual firepower that came with the EP result, representing as it did the possibility of a Nationalist third-way. The means of growth was to be through the extended process of creating a manifesto with a firmly mainstream appeal.

Their current electoral support is a product of their ability of transmitting this manifesto to the public. Which is why for analytical reasons having an English language version is so useful.

The chief brake on their ability to grow is therefore the obstruction represented by the virtual press embargo they face. Proportionally, still very few Hungarian voters have internet access. Forget the terrestrial channeles, and the respective management of Hír and Echo TV are eyeing future posts in a Fidesz government too greedily to rock the boat.

But forget the hype. When voters ARE being permitted to see the manifesto, they end up seeing neither extremism nor pie-in-the-sky. But rather something both patriotic and rational.

Can’t you read? The original poster was bobscountrybunker. He is also the brilliant chap who posted the English version of JOBBIK’s election manifesto.

Well done, bobs! Best move yet on this blog.

"Can't you read?" Well, apparently I can. Can you?
-

March 04, 2010, 14:32 CET
Political Pest
March 15th madness avoided as parties distance themselves from each other
By Zoltán Csipke

Dear President László,
Some are already doing some of the things you outlined but your detailed description of various alternatives is very helpful. As a word of caution, undertaking these projects often brings clouds of suspicion and accusation against those who donate their time and resources (money) to help Hungarians. I am not saying this to discourage anyone, only to prepare those who wish to help for some unpleasant and unjustified criticism they may encounter. Sometimes, it is a lot easier and a lot less complicated to donate to a well functioning organization than to personally engage with their daily activities.
Your call for retired Hungarians to return “home” also sounds good but that also has to be carefully considered. The laws and customs are so different that a retired Hungarian used to having public officials treat the public with respect could get a stroke the first time he encounters one of those arrogant public officials. Money would not be a problem for those with American, Canadian or British retirements but it may break the heart of an old Hungarian to see the poverty some fellow Hungarians live under for no fault of their own. If you love your people, it is not much solace to have a good life when others around you do not.
One of the reasons why I cannot be as nice and as Christian with others as you do can because I deeply resent that Hungarians, decent, had working, talented Hungarians have to work as slaves in their own country because the Communists, the filthy, murderous, heartless Communists destroyed the country. Drop an old patriotic Hungarian in the middle of this mess and see how long before he gives up his will to live.
Hungarians may not realize but they need Jobbik’s message of hope more than ever.

Hello Bystander,

That's the spirit! Imagine the ripple effect if this were multipilied by millions of people, along with their millions of dollars/euros!

Hungary's political class is too wrapped up in short term, day to day issues and survival. The problem with the sort of proposals I have made above is that they would cost some money and effort to implement, and the payoff would be over many years. Strategic thinking and action, along with long term time framwes, are not a strong suit with us, especially among our elites.

What a contrast to post war Japan! There, in the 1950's, the top leaders of business and government got together in a room and worked out 10, 15, and 20 year economic goals and objectives. It was then and there that they agreed that Japan should be an export driven economic engine, and all policy was coordinated by both the public and private sectors to that purpose. They formed "Japan Inc" to carry it out.

Such long term planning and group cunning is almost alien among us unfortunately, but it's never too late to learn!

@Farkas László @ Bystander
"What I would like to see addressed is a plan or program to tap the loyalties and resources of overseas Hungarians and their numerous descendents, a great many of whom have not forgotten their heritage and would jump at the chance to re-connnect with Hungary in some way, even when they are three or four generations removed from their mother country.

When we look at the size of the Hungarian diaspora, spread as it is over many nations and continents over several generations, we can assume that we are looking at a target group whose net worth easily runs into many billions of Euros!"
-----

If I can quote from the covering article on jobbik.com about the English language manifesto, that I linked to earlier,
http://www.jobbik.com/jobbik-announcements/3152.html
...it says:

"The reasons for its [the document's] release extend far beyond the wish to provide the global press, the curious and second and third generation Hungarians abroad, with unbiased and unfiltered access to information on the reality of what Jobbik wishes to achieve in Hungary."

I think therefore that the production of this English language copy is very much part of such a plan by Jobbik. And about time too, if you ask me.

@Elle
Well someone has to post some actual internationally relevant news about Hungarian politics in English on a site, erm, about Hungarian political news in English!
;-)

Dear Jim,

I am aware of the things you mention of course. It would have to be a very individual decision in every case, whether to visit, or visit again, to donate, to live and get involved. I don't know how long you have been reading my posts, but I deeply regret the communist past and it's legacy. It set up up for a lot of poverty and underdevelopment, which breeds division, ill feeelings and resentment. It leaves us with something that has to be lived down and overcome with time.

While very painfully aware of the past, I am looking to the future. My suggestions can have concrete benefits in the long run, and all of those ideas will have to be carefully considered in some way eventually. Out of the whole group, I most think as beneficial would be to encourage tourism, investment and will bequests to our schools and colleges. (Universities in the Anglo Saxon world reap billions for their endowments and scholarships in this manner!)

I appreciate your post, despite the fact that it is a sad reminder. Many feel they have lost out through an accident of fate and history. We do have to try and see beyond that for the long term, as the need for financial resources will continue, challenging us to new ways to obtain those monies.

@Elle: On the contrary, in the past I have detailed my objections to Jobbik, their leaders, their policies and those policies not outlined in their manifesto. I'm not in the habit of repeating myself endlessly as Mark, Big Jim, yourself, Law and others seem to find fulfilling.

There's plenty of other data out there on Jobbik and their campaign strategy. I was clearly paraphrasing. For example today NOL.hu have a good piece on the Jobbik clearly dominating internet forums and web strategy http://nol.hu/noller/a_jobbik_uarlja_a_forumokat_es_a_blogokat

Hope it doesn't hurt you too much to read from NOL.

Also most media is abuzz with Vona's replay to Orbán, following Bayer Zsolt's letter to Vona last week. Strangely Magyar Hírlap and Fidesz rags are slow to cover this - will be interesting to see what happens if Fidesz do need to work with Jobbik.

Anyway, I think overall Jobbik are certainly getting enough press, even the neo-left-liberal-capitalist-stb press, and they know how to create coverage when the need it - generally picking on a one horde village for an outing of the uniform fairies.

Dear bob,

Thanks for that. By raising the issue of overseas Hungarians, I think Jobbik is raising a challenge for the other parties and the political process on this question. It's up to the other parties to speak out on what (if any) plan they have to utilise the love, money and loyalty of Hungarians abroad for the long term benefit of the nation!

@ Vándorló

And how does anything of what you say alter the fact that you posted a mendacious translation of Forense’s ‘A bázis fiatal, férfias és egyre inkább vidéki’? You claimed that this means ‘A typical Jobbik supporter is increasingly young, uneducated and from the rural community’. In fact it means ‘The support base is young, male, and increasingly rural.’ What is ‘on the contrary’ about this?

@Vándorló
"Anyway, I think overall Jobbik are certainly getting enough press"
-----

Seriously, I don't wish to be rude, but what the fuck are you talking about? The following is data from the state broadcasting comission (ORTT) about how much respective coverage the different political parties get on the news programs of all the TV channels in Hungary:

http://barikad.hu/node/47767

For those unable to read Hungarian there are some very helpful charts, on which you'll have difficulty detecting the Jobbik portion: because it's so minute!

For example the total featuring of Jobbik politicians in news stories, of ALL Hungarian TV channels are:
MSZP: 39.1%
Fidesz-KDNP: 49.9%
MDF-SZDSZ: 11.8%
Jobbik: 1%

When it comes to actual live footage of Jobbik polticians it is 0.4% of coverage. And how much actual speaking time do they get on TV? 0.3%!

So, hardly fair and proportionate for a party scoring 14.7% at the Euro elections, is it?! Of course Jobbik has a massive online presence, because you can't censor the net and they have no other choice!

The above discussion on overseas Hungarians gives me an idea for an intiative that I would like to share with you all at this point.

Hungarian colleges and schools need not wait for action from the politicians when it comes to soliciting for endowments and will bequests. Towards this purpse, they can undertake their own marketing effort, and target whoever they wish. They can even pool resources for the purpose of launching such a reach out.

I am proposing contacting the top universities and trade schools in Hungary, as well as Hungarian organizations worldwide, and bring them together for the purposes of reaching out to potential donors and connecting them with worthy institutions. I will be doing this and report back to this community as to who I have contacted, and what responses we receive.

Endowments are vital to any worthwhie, world class university. Endowment money becomes the principal that becomes invested by the school, and the ivestment income thereon goes toward faculty salaries, buildings, research, maintenance, scholarships etc. (To attract world class faculty, you have to pay competitive wages) Good schools attract business investment and employment opportunities, so the multiplier effect over time can be substantial. Bequests can be dedicated for specific purposes as well, like endowing "chairs" of study or scholarships.

I will draw up a list of organizations and schools to contact. You all are welcome to join in the effort.

@ Farkas Lászlo:

‘Such long term planning and group cunning is almost alien among us unfortunately …’

Laci, why is it that you are so sure? When have Hungarians last had the opportunity to do what the Japanese did, or anything remotely like it? In our post-war condition, as BIG JIM says, ‘the filthy, murderous, heartless Communists destroyed the country’. In our post-communist condition, their progeny did exactly the same. So, please, do go easy on your ‘Hungarians can’t do’ line. What, for instance, could we have done to plan the best use of our energy resources? Our filthy government handed MOL over in entirety to private foreign ownership. This same government is now under EU Comm. investigation for excusing MOL of paying the statutorily determined 30% mining fee. JOBBIK alone has sounded an energy policy, something that has not happened before.

If we can get to the point where we at last have a real Hungarian government, one of the kind JOBBIK aspires to be, and we remain poor all the same, your sort of diagnosis of our economic capability will be warranted. But not until then.

Dear Elle,

Like I said, it's never too late to learn!

The Japanese had their own liabilities to overcome back in the 1950's, as does any other nation tht wants to develop.

Honestly, I don't see much evidence of a long term approach among our elites at the present time. I would love to be proven wrong, not by argument and rhetoric, but by results and actions. Take my criticism as a constructive provocation to try and do better! There is always love behind my critiques; I do understand what the past has brought, now it's a question of overcoming it.

@Elle
I'm afraid I have to back László on this one. The absence of any form of strategic long-term planning is a curse on Hungarian history.

In fact short of Szécsényi and St. Stephen himself I can't think of any Hungarians notable for it!

It is ironic and sad that we spend so much time looking so long into the past, that we spend so little looking any way into the future.
(And this Viking, is your answer to the question of why I consider Islam to be much more of a threat to Europe than Judaism.)

@ bobscountrybunker

We didn't do too badly at all between the mid-nineteenth century and WWI, bobs. The problem then was that the aristocracy hogged everything. And we did very well with the advent of GAZMEG in 1968: we were better off then than any other Soviet bloc country, inclusing East Germany. And the latter was just a tiny window of opportunity. I have every faith in a 'cleanskin' government's ability to give the floor to a new Szécsényi. Vona even has the right looks for the part. (I know the latter. You don't: you're a chap.)

@Elle: I'll dig out the other data relating to educational achievement and social demographics. As with Bobs... you have to be patient because I generally just rely re-stumbling across something I've read. From what I've read everything I've said is an accurate reflection of the available data.

@Bobs...: Thanks for the stats. Fair point again. At the same time, direct involvement and engagement in politics is not well gauged by TV viewing patterns. You say Jobbik use the internet because they have to, but the other supporting data shows that those favouring Jobbik do so outside of their close family circle. Their involvement tends to be with peers and friends in places they prefer to inhabit. In this case Jobbik are proving far more effective and in terms of spending producing a far greater impact. Dominance of the internet, discussion fora and blogs is real active engagement. TV viewing/availability is mere passive push to unwilling consumers.
I'd also say that people know how to ignore TV and standard adverts on a cognitive and social level. People are much less practiced and skilled at using tools/strategies to do the same with emerging media.
As for overall budgets for election programs I'll wait for the Freedom House, a Transparency International & Eötvös Károly Intézet report. Majtényi (ex-ORTT head who resigned over rádiógate) had a bit to say on related issues yesterday too: http://www.fn.hu/belfold/20100303/majtenyi_jobbik_fidesz/

@ Farkas Lászlo:

Fine. But we must not forget that Japan had the fulsome backing of the US at the time. We not only did not have a similar backing; we had a viciously oppressive, murderous communist government instead. I maintain that your comparison does not even begin to be valid.

@Bobs...: After just a quick scan of that data and going to the ORTT site, do you not think it laughable and appalling that Vona repeatedly calls for RTL Klub to be shut down when this channel shows more of Jobbik than any of the others. In particular, it is clear that the Fidesz financed/friendly channels HírTV and EchoTV are the ones that show absolutely no coverage of anyone they don't like, including Jobbik.
Let's face it, his argument that they should be shut down for bias has nothing to do with it. He just doesn't want or respect difference of opinion.

@Bobs...: Please ignore my last comment about the data for RTL Klub. That Jobbik and Vona can distinguish between HirTV/EchoTV and RTL Klub on the basis of this data does still demonstrate their clear bias. I'd either like to see Vona calling for HirTV/EchoTV to be shut down too, or shut up and mind his own business about the media.

The media, and any number of public institutions, are due for a thorough clean-out. Neither Vona nor Orbán will do what you call 'mind their own business' in this matter. Getting rid of the commie-run arms of the establishment is their business.

And Vándorló claims, pn-facedly: 'Vona repeatedly calls for RTL Klub to be shut down when this channel shows more of Jobbik than any of the others.' Shows what, like the lie you told about Forense's Jobbik-voter profile?

@ Big Jim

In response to your paragraph: "All of these I am telling you are waste of my time and your time because only Law and Elle are the Hungarian voters on this list. Only what they think that matters. The village idiots may be useful for entertainment and at times may be irritating but they count for nothing. "

Although Pavaland and its citizens favour postings that are written in riddles, I am becoming a good interpreter. God knows I had enough practice.

I am certain this time that you are saying good bye since Law and Elle have already "seen the light" and thus you see no further need to be either entertained or have your time wasted by the falusi idiotakkal. (I hope I spelled it right)

So before you disappear, I wanted to have the opportunity to say good-bye. You are most likely involved with the Tea Party groups across the ocean, so this website's loss is their gain. All the best

You have quite the wrong expression, olga: 'falusi idiotakkal' means 'with the villagers, who are idiots' (i.e., all villagers are idiots). 'The village idiot' translates as 'a falu bolondja'.

We eulogise our villagers. We do not think them idiots. But then, we are Hungarians.

And don't despair for BIG JIM. He's still here. Perhaps he is busy helping out a village idiot's h-wife, possibly with the bili. For some reason, the chief village idiot has fallen silent. Try as he might, he cannot find extremisms, or nazis, in JOBBIK's election manifesto. And hell, there's a lot of reading there...

Jobbik is squeaky clean for a number of reasons. If one of theirs accused of a crime, they part with them while the Communists pull the “innocent until proven guilty” line
BIG JIM at March 5, 2010 4:47 PM
---
Mazbe Jobbik did this on the Keszthely-President (tax fraud), but what about the Bicske-President (logistics support (ammunition) to accused terrorists) and of course the rest of the Budahazy-cohort
No, they are innocent 'Political Prisoners'
Get accused of cheating with the tax is a no-no, get accused of organising political violence is OK
-
A bit of the world turned upside down, that it should be so hard to get a political party in Hungary that is against both?

@Vándorló
I fail to see what it is you think you are demonstrating.
If Jobbik is well represented on a TV station whose franchise they wish to end, then the only thing that it can prove, is that Vona's motive can't possibly be political after all.

Which is what you and others were complaining about.

Rather, that he really does legitimately object to such stations for cultural reasons, as he said. And it is about time you, and others, started respecting the 20% or so of Hungarian public opinion that agrees with him.

Well so far, what I have read (I'm only on page 10) I have to admit, I like what I see.

I can also however, see how some people could feel threatened by Jobbik. They're pushing the " Were all in this together card" and if you do not feel a strong connection to Hungary and do not consider yourself Hungarian, you could/would incorrectly interpret Jobbiks intent/philosophy.

I have to admit, there was a couple of statements in this manifesto, that I would like to run past some friends here in Canada, so that I could get their impression/interpretation.

I also really like Farkas Laci's suggestion regarding the overseas Hungarians. I think the people in Hungary, would be surprised on how willing, those of us on this side of the pond want to help in anyway we can.

As for retires moving to Hungary, in my Dad's case, he would not be able to live in Hungary full time, he would in fact, have to come back to Canada a few times a year so that his pension does not become void. Trust me, he and I have discussed the possibility of moving to Hungary.

I also will add, what we both saw last year in Hungary, regarding some of the pensioners monthly cheques and how hard they are struggling to make ends meet, literally brought us to tears. As well, catapulted us towards an even more deeper hate towards those responsible, I will admit.

it is about time you, and others, started respecting the 20% or so of Hungarian public opinion that agrees with him.
bobscountrybunker at March 5, 2010 9:20 PM
---
When I went to school, which was a very long time ago, 80% was bigger than 20%
But that was before both a long time ago and not in Hungary
-
To respect is one thing, to bother is another
In this case the reason to have several TV-channels is that they should *not* be similar
If uniformity is a demand, why bother with more than one?

@Viking
"When I went to school, which was a very long time ago, 80% was bigger than 20%"
-----
Nobody was saying it wasn't numbnuts.

What they were saying genius, pay attention now, is that 20% support should not mean 1% exposure on the TV news!

Quite simple really...

@ justasking

‘… if you do not feel a strong connection to Hungary and do not consider yourself Hungarian, you could/would incorrectly interpret Jobbiks intent/philosophy’.

Zsuzsa, I think the problem for those who do not feel a strong connection to Hungary is that JOBBIK is dead earnest when it says that Hungary belongs to the Hungarians. They are not misinterpreting at all: they understand correctly that JOBBIK is saying that Hungarians and their resources are not there for non-Hungarians’ exploitation.

And while I do not deny the good sense in Laci’s suggestion about harnessing the Hungarian diaspora as contributors of good, hard cash to Hungary, I am concerned that he is keen on directing that cash into education. Many efforts have been made to persuade Hungarians that their education system should not be ‘elitist’, i.e., anyone can go to university, not only the academically capable, etc. Despite our meagre resources, we still turn out far, far better educated school leavers that does the US, or even England and Australia. (The Scots and Irish school systems are much better than the English ones.) I would not like to see external finance make a dog’s dinner of the Hungarian education system.

Finally: nobody’s dad who was of military age during WWII should consider returning to Hungary while the present government is in power. Ninety-two -year-old Lieutenant Sándor Képiró, who meant to spend his last years happily in his homeland, is being dragged from court to court on allegations of war criminality. The original court dismissed the charge, but his harassment continues.

I am looking forward to your final assessment of JOBBIK’s election manifesto.

What the example of Japan Inc entails is a closed door discussion between leaders, whatever their political affiliation is:

1)How will we make the country economically self sufficient?

2)How much borrowing or money will that take and where will that come from?

3)What industries will have to be encouraged?

4)How will exports be encouraged?

This is all pretty common sense stuff really. It has nothing to do with being "Japanese" per se. The fact that we didn't have leaders right after 1989 who could have asked the obvious questions and worked them out is the problem.

Did we learn anything from all this lost opportunity and lack of planning? I hope so! If not, we are in for more of the same. Is it too late to learn? Never! It's not Hungarian patriotism to ever give up. Our ancestors did not give up, even when faced with much worse circumstances; they would consider our present "problems" a joke.

@justasking
To quote the words of Jobbik at every local campaign meeting, "We warmly welcome all enquries."

So if that is really how you end up feeling, and I would say the same for everyone else, why don't you just get in touch with them?
http://jobbik.hu/contact
When I wanted a quote on foreign policy in English (for a paper), I went straight to Vona, and eventually got an answer from a person who was bilingual.
http://vonagabor.hu/contact

I'm sure they have someone reading his emails at least who also speaks English. They get many enquiries which they forward on to the right person I think. If you want, spread the word. I don't know, just say that you've read the English language manifesto or something, and you're wondering how you could help.

This is the way people always end up getting involved in politics.

Jobbik most of all. That is why it is grass roots. And because of the press embargo, this is the ONLY way it can spread. I am sure they would welcome you wherever in the world you come from. There might even be a supporters group in your country you have absolutely no idea about, that is already operating.

But the point is, they're not going to ever come to you, are they?
Because until you tell them, they have no idea who you are!

@Laszlo - One thing I would add to your list which contributed to Japan's success is an extension of your point 3) - what industries do NOT get assistance.
With the focus in creating competitively industries, led by advisors such as Deming & Juran, the Japanese were also encouraged to make the tough decision not to support industries which were not deemed strategic. These industries, without support, eventually died out, or else competed among each other to become so internationally competitive, that they too began to help Japan's exports.
One of the main difficulties of Hungary adopting a Japan Inc approach is the unwillingness of parties to make the decision and allow a particular sector to die out. This reluctance becomes a big burden, because it eats into the limited resources which the govt has at hand, and ultimately, makes the priority sector less competitive through reduced funding. With a global market & lower trade barriers, it simply is not possible to re-allocate limited resources from a priority sector to a non-priority sector mid-way, and still remain internationally competitive. Strategic long-term planning also requires a determination to stay the course even when the govt changes.
I agree with your funding of educational institutes, however, I feel that funds should likewise be channeled to selected educational institutes to significantly increase the quality first, rather than diffuse that funding to many and not see significant results.

Dear Laci,

You said:

'Did we learn anything from all this lost opportunity and lack of planning? I hope so! If not, we are in for more of the same. Is it too late to learn? Never! It's not Hungarian patriotism to ever give up. Our ancestors did not give up, even when faced with much worse circumstances; they would consider our present "problems" a joke.'

What is the 'opportunity' we lost? I put it to you that there were none since 1989. And who is talking about giving up? Certainly not JOBBIK. That's why we support this Party in such healthy numbers.

@Elle,
Sorry to beat a dead brain surgeon, but could you
please reply at some point and explain how you
were not just openly lying about having
geneticists working with you that had already
reached conclusions that were impossible?
-
You have been pretty active on this thread yet
ignoring the response I feel I deserve considering
your quite aggressive stance before. Many people
about this forum present facts that allow a
certain amount of "wiggle room" for the truth, yet
our interchange was the first time I feel I have
been blatantly *lied* to, and I feel that your
credibility is at stake if you feel like you can
invent scholars and "university conferences" out
of whole cloth... one wouldn't know what to
believe anymore. I feel I am at least entitled to
some sort of response or at least an admission
that you made that one up!
-
If not why should any of us take you seriously at
all, much less "eulogize" you, to use your word
there... Fair is fair -- I can't go about
inventing facts like "When Stalin invaded Canada
in 1952"... and your comments re: this fishy
Penfield claim fall into the same category...
-
Or you can continue what you are doing and
completely pretend "I never said that" even though
it's sitting there for all to see in the
aforementioned thread(s).
-
Thanks again in advance for your engaging others
in debate and not shrinking away into denial-land.

@ Bystander,

Oh, sod off, you little gutter snipe. You are beneath contempt.

@ Bobs;

I can not see why Jobbik let alone Vona would really be interested in us here in Canada. Really, what could we do from here for him/Jobbik? Trust me, if there was something we could do, Dad and I would.

Besides,by the time we get to Hungary this year, it will be in May and the election will be over.

Mind you, I would like to hear Vona and Morvai speak, so if anybody knows of any Trianon gatherings by Jobbik this June 4Th, please tell me where and when and Apu and I will show up with bells on :))

@ Bystander;

Dude, Elle is giving you the brush off, and I don't think it's because she's scared to enter into a debate with you.

The way your chasing her around Politics, reminds of those nerdy little kids that are reduced to tying pork chops around their necks so that the family dog will play with them.

Please show a little pride. Christ, I'm feeling embarrassed for you, seriously...enough.

@justasking
The way I see it is that Jobbik are definitely interested in developing a network internationally. Because of the staggering misrepresentation they get in the press. This is the reason behind the Jobbik Friends of Hungary in the UK, for example.

But more importantly, there may well already be such an association in Canada, and getting in touch centrally is the only way you're likely to be able to find out.
http://www.jobbik.com/europe-news/3140.html
"The Jobbik Friends of Hungary is an amalgamation of an increasing number of international societies, formed spontaneously by members of the Hungarian diaspora. Societies such as the one in the UK exist primarily to serve an informative purpose: telling Hungarians overseas the realities concerning events back home and the Jobbik party; such is the mistrust of either an intentionally misinformed international media, or a deliberately mendacious national (Hungarian) press."

And I suspect that the desire to create such a network is to build the foundation for something very similar to what Farkas László was talking about. An outreach to the immense resource of talent and knowledge that the Hungarian diaspora represents. But you can't have an outreach unless you have people in these countries to reach out!

So if I were you, I wouldn't worry in the least. You have nothing to lose by getting in touch, and everything to gain. That's what makes Jobbik people different. They (we) do stuff!

@ Bobs;

I just might take you up on that offer to contact Jobbik. I just never thought about it truth be told.

Lately, we have had allot of new Hungarians come here to where to live, especially from Transylvania.

I'll look into it for sure. Who knows where it will all go.

What they were saying genius, pay attention now, is that 20% support should not mean 1% exposure on the TV news!
Quite simple really...
bobscountrybunker at March 5, 2010 10:16 PM
----
We speak about the National elections and the figures you refer to comes from the dreaded European elections
Enjoy bob's arguments where the showing in the EP elections will be used as an argument for anything. It will last until April 12, from April 12 the showing of Jobbik will be the main argument
As it should
Because the showing of the last national elections should be shown in how the parties for the upcoming elections are being invited to different debates in State-controlled media
-
Bob's idea that Tarki/Gallup/etc polls should be used as reference to 'airtime' is novel and will also disappear from April 12
Bob is the first one to question the validity of different polls, so using their validity (and which one shows 20% support for Jobbik?) is not very logic, but do not fear, it is just a temporary thing
-
When we come to media-coverage, it will never be 'correct', depending how it is done.
The current scandals (BKV/Ferihegy/etc) are verz much concentrated (naturally for being in power) both to Budapest and hence to SZDS and MSZP
When is 'news'-coverage turning into 'political'-coverage. Is all news/political-coverage for SZDS/MSZP good for them, or does it actually give more support for the opposition?

nobody’s dad who was of military age during WWII should consider returning to Hungary while the present government is in power. Ninety-two -year-old Lieutenant Sándor Képiró, who meant to spend his last years happily in his homeland, is being dragged from court to court on allegations of war criminality. The original court dismissed the charge, but his harassment continues.
Elle at March 5, 2010 10:26 PM
---
elle/sophie/tünde is claiming that the courts are controlled politically
The proof for this is this court-case about the possibility to put someone before court accused for the mainly Hungarian Gendarmeri massacre in Novi Sad in 1942
Should this really be a political decision, as elle/sophie/tünde wants to make it to, or should 'Justice' be blind and look at the available evidence in due course?
As part of the legal process is the right to appeal, for both parties, but in elle/sophie/tünde's world, that should also be part of the political consideration
-
elle/sophie/tünde feels strongly about this then he/she has earlier claimed to have a grandfather that was an Hungarian General during WWII

I am concerned that he is keen on directing that cash into education. Many efforts have been made to persuade Hungarians that their education system should not be ‘elitist’, i.e., anyone can go to university, not only the academically capable, etc. Despite our meagre resources, we still turn out far, far better educated school leavers that does the US, or even England and Australia. (The Scots and Irish school systems are much better than the English ones.) I would not like to see external finance make a dog’s dinner of the Hungarian education system
Elle at March 5, 2010 10:26 PM
----
Having had children in the Hungarian education system since middle of the 90s, I have heard this complaint how good the Hungarian education system was before and how bad it is now
I still have children in the Hungarian education system and I still hear the same complaint
Some people even show some stats about it
-
Given my experience and what elle/sophie/tünde writes I am a bit surprised:
1) The Hungarian education system is till good?
elle/sophie/tünde obviously suggests that
The normal line from her kind of people is that it is totally destroyed
-
2) The Hungarian education system was actually good during the Communist rule?
elle/sophie/tünde obviously suggests that also
The normal line from her kind of people is that the Communist *totally* destroyed Hungary and took away *any* possibility for Hungarians to prosper
Obviously many poor Hungarians could have a lot of academic titles before

Bystander;
Dude, Elle is giving you the brush off, and I don't think it's because she's scared to enter into a debate with you.
justasking at March 6, 2010 3:54 AM

@JA - It does appear like Elle is a "lying coward*" who gave up, and "scurried away like a rat**". She is also depriving a Hungarian charity of $100.
On the subject of genes & genetic traits - as an ex-soldier, I hate yellow-livered, or incompetent soldiers who often let their men (& their families) face the consequences of their decisions alone. My dad, who was a major then, saw the results of that from both sides.
Wonder if Mark thinks we should also hold their children & grandchildren responsible.
* © 2008, Law/HP.
** © 2009, Ricsi.

Vocational Training and education that will, ultimately, provide the student with the necessary qualifications and skills for being competitive in the job market is what matters.
Many pupils spend so long in school they loose track of what they are there for and become "conditioned" in performing a single function by turning up at school and being lectured ad nauseum.
It is not so much the education system per se but a like of direction as to what the end result should be.
Vocational training that will produce skilled people who can operate in a technological world that is changing by the day should be of paramount concern.

Love or hate Jobbik they have at least made the effort to come up with a manifesto and are creating an awareness among voters that a new era in Hungarian politics is about to begin.
Fidesz will most definitely win the election in the Spring. But this is only the beginning of a long, hard,battle to rid Hungary of corruption,inefficient practices. communist bureaucracy, and a whole raft of other problems. These must be met head-on if this country is to avoid sliding further into the abyss without recourse to a safety net in the shape of IMF/EU/World bank etc.

@Cináed

"I may be mistaken, but isn't the Zoltan who posts here, the same person who wrote the original article for this thread?"

You're not mistaken.

But this is only the beginning of a long, hard,battle to rid Hungary of corruption,inefficient practices. communist bureaucracy, and a whole raft of other problems. These must be met head-on if this country is to avoid sliding further into the abyss without recourse to a safety net in the shape of IMF/EU/World bank etc.
Drumbeat at March 6, 2010 12:59 PM
---
I think unnecessary bureaucracy does not need to be limited to "communist bureaucracy", but I just wonder what were people thinking 20 years ago?
Was not the 'change' in 1990 much bigger than what will happen on April 12, 2010?
Were not the goals the same 1989/1990?
What is the 'guarantee' that this time it will be sooo different?

Zoltan: Cheers. Have a good weekend.

@ George;

Well, appearances can be perceiving.

D'OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "deceiving"

@justasking

Zsuzsa, thanks, but please don’t bother. The offensive little git came up with the ‘discovery’ that I lied to him when I said that I was doing something in the course of my academic work. He seems to think that this is a clever ploy to engage me in conversation with him. I would have thought that my telling him to sod off is enough to dissuade him of the likelihood of that.

D'OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "deceiving"
justasking at March 6, 2010 3:42 PM

JA- Of course they're deceiving, that's what liars do.

Dear Elle,

The opportunity I mention was to better order a number of issues pertaining to economic management and policy. The transition in 1989 was a key moment to do that, as it forced the issue of how to convert from a state system to something else. That was also before we joined the EU, with it's restrictive laws on combining govt subsidy with provate business.

For example, when Japan's business and govt leaders got together and decided their long run policies and formed Japan Inc., they were doing a number of things that would be illegal under EU law. They decided to restrict imports while encouraging exports; they also decided to use govt funding to build industry as well as to open up new export markets with goods priced below cost value i.e. "dumping". The list goes on. This worked for them, because they had a ruling class that knew how to avail themsleves of the opportunities that that created.

It's too late for Hungary to try such things, without leaving the EU. Also I doubt whether our leaders could or would get together in one room and decide such policy questions and implement them. Now I would like to see otherwise. If I could, I would call such a meeting tomorrow, force leaders of govt, the political parties and business to get together, and not let them out until they reached long term agreement on things like how the country was to build it's businesses and exports.

To Elle:

As far as who is giving up. Well it's not me! But I see many who have or have lapsed into apathy. Also, those young people who move abroad have also given up, and their numbers grow. Many of them are educated and the loss to the nation is significant.

I have strived tirelessly to propose constructive suggestions for the future. One initiative that I suggested above involves soliciting foreign Hungarians to leave bequests to Hungarian schools and universities.

I have to be critical of the past 20 years, because it didn't live up to the expectations of many, opportunities were squandered by a political class that was corrupt and living for short term political and private gain. It leaves the nation with a questionable future, unless there is a reorientation. What that could be depends; it depends not just on the political system but the people themselves.

@Elle Feb 11.@ ‘Perhaps if ‘book learning’ were better respected by more contributors to this thread, there would have been a higher level of sensitivity to the huge implications of this. Recall that once in the IMF grip, no….’
What a mindless moron you are my dear twittering canary bird.
Any spare books that you may have please place them where the sun don’t shine!
Any attempt that you make to sound intelligent fails miserably on one pivotal
point- you do not know what the fuck you are talking about.
Go out and get some fresh air. Preferably on the top of a high mountain with high winds, lots of snow,and treacherous ice patches.
Do it in the evening when the light is fading….

From having gone through most of this long thread there is one conclusion I've come to: Elle is our dear old friend Sophie under a new alias.

Hello again Elle,

I went back several posts and found your reservations about me wanting to see greater funding for Hungarian schools.

Bequests and grants from foreign sources can be allocated to scholarships, which would enable less affluent and fortunate, but otherwise qualified students to get a good education. That could address some of the concers about elitism.

But education is about achievement and being qualified. It can't be about everybody being on the same level. I do support educational opportunity to all, but the best schooling will go to the best qualified.

Because schools cost a lot of money to maintain, because world class faculty expect world class (and not Hungarian) wages, I think to tap new sources of goodwill and revenue makes sense. Keeping schools of science and engineering cutting edge alone costs many millions.

I hope you don't equate receiving money from abroad with powerlessness! Standards have to be set by the recipients as well, as to upon what terms the moneies will be accepted, and what uses they can be put to. The receiving end has to accept and take responsibility as well.

@ Farkas László

Well, yes, Laci. I now see the nature of the opportunity you referred to with the Japanese comparison. But you note in the emergence of Japan Inc. the role of that country’s uncontested ruling class. We certainly have not had such a ruling class since the Horthy regime, and few of us would like that back. Besides, that was a ruling class very unlike that of the Japanese, in that the Japanese lot sought the national interest, whereas ours was content to secure its own. So really, our society never was, nor will ever be, anything like a Japanese society. For that reason, we never had a Japanese sort of opportunity.

What I do see is that you are right in noting that 1989 was a time when we could have done something to develop our economic interests without EU restrictions on what we can do. But Antall József was gone in no time, and the commies were ‘on the take’ immediately after him. That was very like what happened to Russia after Gorbachov. Eventually, Putin cleaned that up, and Russia was on its feet again. That opportunity is now ours, too (God grant). I do not underestimate the good an honest government can do. Perhaps we shall see one soon. (And by all means look them up until they have produced an intelligent economic plan. I shall come with you to pull scary faces in the background.)

@ Farkas László

Oh, no Laci! I do not have any objection to getting education money from abroad. What I do not want is for such money to come attached with prescriptions about what and how we ought to teach.

There has been a lot of pedagogical complaint, mostly from the US, about our ‘elitist’ system of education. i.e., about the fact that we give university places only to students who have demonstrated the necessary scholastic skills, and about our inclination to teach 'academically' rather than foster 'creativity', etc. (I’m all for our elitism, in this sense.) I do not want our high scholastic standards beaten down into the sort of pulp that passes for education in the ‘egalitarian’ US system.

@Elle
FL is not a big fan of H.Miklos, unfortunately his faith lies with the establishment.

the fact that we give university places only to students who have demonstrated the necessary scholastic skills
Elle at March 6, 2010 8:21 PM
----
This is only half the way, then to be able to get a free education in the University you need to have enough points when applying at the start of the studies
If you succeed, then it is free as long as you study that trail, regardless of your competence, success or effort
What has been discussed in Hungary is to introduce that check every year instead, so you up the motivation to fulfil successful studies, or you pay
Because, if you have money, you can pay every year if you did not make it for the 1st year, so any rich sob can spend their time until 45 in the Uni

@ Bystander

Do you ever just step back ,forget every person
and every argument you ever read on this website?

I just did and thought:

Wait a sec - every Allied soldier who gave up his life to fight in WW II died to fight the Nazis
and Hitler.

There is a small minority of ultra right wing Neo- Nazis all over Europe (they must exist in Canada but I don't look for them) If your listen to the mainstream media (same media that denies coverage to people who have been abducted by aliens) Neo Nazi groups are mentioned in the same esteem as the KKK .
Some of us came to this website to learn about Hungarian politics to find that a neo-Nazi group hijacked the website.
I am started thinking of this website as a hospital (FL, Chief of psychiatry)If I want to find sick people, here they are. Doesn't mean once I leave the front door the majority out there are also sick.

You are pissing in the wind asking for that research study because it does not exist. (If you are interested in another racist debunked study check out John Philippe Rushton , University of Western Ontario)

I really do want to find out the platforms of the other parties; getting tired of being inside that hospital and want out to breathe fresh air where the majority not the minority are healthy

Where is the website that compares and contrasts the policies of every party that has a chance to get seat(s) in Parliament in the upcoming election?

One more question: Does it hurt to bang your head against the wall?

@Olga
You're just down right ignorant.

@ Bela

How upsetting to hear that from you - I was hoping we could be friends. BTW, after your own postings showed up in italics (you know, the day you discovered Wolfi and I were the same person?) I never did read an apology. Oh, well , you probably thought it

While you have your thinking cap on, maybe you could figure out why people whose ideas you support have the right to use the most profane language, give spurious information yet I am not entitled to my own opinion. My opinions actually go under the legal definition of "freedom of speech" because whatever I write does no incite violence against anyone. That is the spirit of the law in case you ever wondered although frankly, I don't think you spent too much time worrying about legal definitions

When you figure it all out, let me know.

I never said you were not intitled to your own opinion, it's very obvious that you are ignorant. Sit on wolfi and rotate.

@Bela

Just just to finish your sentence so you position is clear:

(a)" you are ignorant because you

This would not count: " you are ignorant because you write opinions that are different from mine"

When you finish that first sentence, pray tell about the italics and the fonts. You were obivously incorrect. So when a person makes a mistake, what do you think that person should do?

I would bet a cappuchino from Gerbaud (and I don't gamble with those easily) that you are never going to give me 2 straight simple answers as required. So much easier to engage in name calling , isn't it? If frustrated, something vulgar is always useful.

After your non-answer, how about them political parties out there in Hungary? Platforms, promises, policies and such other trivialities?

Hi, Olga!

It's sad, but there just is no argueing with those moronic right wing loonies (even if they were raised in Canada or USA or ...).

Thanks for trying, though ...

We're in Germany right now, a lot to do,a lot to see, far from joboland ...

Hope to get to the "Wild West" over Easter ...

Take care, everybody!

@Olga
You know nothing, and I choose not to answer your questions.
I went out of my way to learn the facts on history and politics in Hungary myself, and while you’re influenced by the propaganda you would never see the reality of the matter from being exposed to this website or from where you are in life currently. .
The individual has to experience this for by themselves and not on a site like this which is full of commies with subjective views, who are traitors to Hungary.
I’m aware of the absolute truth, and know who attempt to control the minds of mine and yours.
And if you don't know the basics then you're a prostitute to their cause.
Shame on you and the batch of liars in your whole creepy gang on Munsters.

I’m aware of the absolute truth
Bela at March 7, 2010 8:31 AM
----
Aahh, this statement must be the highlight of the week?

@Olga
You're just down right ignorant.
Bela at March 6, 2010 9:29 PM

You have to give credit to Olga for knowing who and what she hates, ignorant or not. She can talk about Nazis, non-stop and tell that just about everyone is a Nazi who wants to keep their country for their own people. She tells us that these people HATE. No reason given other than to accuse them of HATE. Never mind that these people she HATES so much have not harmed anyone, do not advocate anyone and never dropped a single cluster bomb or a white phosphorus bomb on civilians. No, Olga knows who the HATERS are. In Olga’s world, the HATERS are not those who brutally murder women and children but those who would like to harvest their own crop without it stolen from them. Olga’s HATERS are those who would like to go to bed at night hoping that their throats are not slit by those poor unfortunates who drive up in their BMW to teach another 90+ year old Hungarian peasant woman a lesson.
Did someone say that Olga likes to spit or shit on her father’s grave? Does Olga HATE her father because he was a HATER? Did Olga say somewhere that her father HATED the Communists? That makes him a HATER by Olga’s standards.
Olga probably agree with Barandi and Herenyi, those fine Jewish lawmakers who said that the unlike the victims of Nazis the victims of Communists deserved it because they opposed the Communists. Accidentally, these same fair-minded gentlemen voted to punish Jewish Genocide deniers with 3-year prison sentences because the victims of Nazis, unlike the victims of Communists, did not deserve it. What if those nice humanitarian people Olga so fond of defending captured her father and killed him for opposing the Communists? He would have deserved it because he was a HATER, right Olga?

@Big Asshole (aka little jim):

We've seen your kind of ranting before (when it was bernie with a thousand varieties) now it's you with a thousand stupid variations ...

You should be ashamed of yourself (but that is an emotion which you don't know).

You are the HATEFUL spitting insults at everybody - I use your example to show how many loonie Nazis are on the internet - but probably you aren't even Hunmgarian, that's my consolation you stupid bugger - go enjoy yourself with your friend Ricsi's pigs ...

@BIG JIM:

‘… Barandi and Herenyi, those fine Jewish lawmakers who said that the unlike the victims of Nazis the victims of Communists deserved it because they opposed the Communists.’

It is just so telling! The enemy within drops its guard so easily, like Barandi and Herenyi. They are grinding their teeth though, because people like you are now numerous in Hungary. It is really gratifying to see their jackasses, like the h-wifers and others village idiots on this blog, spluttering obscenities and yelling ‘haters!’ at us with hate-contorted faces. It is interesting, though, that this blog does not seem to have attracted into their ranks anyone who actually is Hungarian, or even ordinarily intelligent. Cannot they see how they harm the cause they are here to defend? I hope they stay, and use all the rope they want to hang themselves.

because people like you are now numerous in Hungary
Elle at March 7, 2010 2:43 PM
---
Mark live normally in the US, he is now over to help Ricsi out with all these things before the election
That is why he is posting as 'BIG JIM' and under Hungarian day-time, just to give the illusion that he is some one else, part of the BIG jobbik internet task force

Dear Bela,

The "establishment" is a governing/opinion making set that every people and nation is stuck with at a given moment in time. You either work with it. or try and change it, (unless one is revolutionary and wants to substitute his own "establishment")

I am by no means a fan of the current Hungarian establishment, as I an not satisfied with the country's economic performance. I also dislike the backgrounds of some of these people, as some of their political roots (or sympathies) go back to the Communist era. Nevertheless, many of the "establishment" are well entrenched people politically and financially, and will not be going away soon, no matter what.

Given how small the country is and how potentially manageable it's problems ought to be, I would love to lock all the major leaders of business and govt in a closed door session, similiar to how the Cardinals are sequestered when they are about to elect a Pope. They set up beds for the Cardinals, and nobody is let in or let out until they have reached a decision! I would love to do this to our elites! Force everyone to reach agreement on key economic issues at least! Perhaps a less restrictive version of such a meeting can be arranged still; it would just take leadership. I'd call for it tomorrow if I was the PM.

Horthy was the product of Hungary's 1000 year long feudal order. His heart was in that sort of past. His job was made more difficult by revolution exported from Moscow and by facsism.

Dear Elle,

The people, as I have pointed out myself many times around here, are historically inexperienced in economic self determination and political self rule, something you yourself are saying in your own words. Like I said before, it is never too late to learn! It helps to look at the experience of other nations, because you either learn that there are many nations in a far worse pickle (and some doing much better), and you might get some ideas pertaining to development.

I am going to make education funding a big priority from here on around here.

There is an enormous muliplier effect when you keep your science and engineering schools cutting edge. Because these fields advance and change rapidly, staying up to date involves recruiting top talent, funding research and building ever more elaborate laboratory facilities. The cost of doing this can be staggering, and keeps increasing at an exponential rate as time goes on. The more science advances, the more and more it costs to advance it further!

Recruiting a Nobel prize winner to teach at any uni will involve offering an annual salary of half a million to even a million Euros! You will also have to throw in relocation incentives and God knows what else. To fund the research projects that would appeal to such an individual would cost an additional tens of millions, and of course the lab facilites where this would be carried out would also cost tens of millions.

(cont)

To keep Hungary cutting edge in the fields of scientific and engineering knowledge would be enormously empowering in the long run; I therefore advocate it out of common sense and patriotism. To enable it to happen would take several billion Euros. Not small change mind you, but not an impossible sum either.

To fund such an effort I see three sources:

1)the government
2)Domestic Hungarian sources of philanthopy
3)philanthropy from foreign Hungarians

To get much from the govt involves issues of political will and policy. Here the public will have to get involved a let the politicains know how they feel about this.

As to domestic Hungarian philanthropy. This is a delicate issue as our monied class is "noveaux riche" (as it is throughout the former communist block). Many made their money in questionable ways, and might not like to draw attention to themselves by donating millions. The country's culture of tax evasion doesn't help either. They are immature in the sense that they prefer to
spend money on themselves, and altruism doesn't resonate with many of them. Still, they can't take it with them, and someday they will have to leave it to someone in a will.

The foreign Hungarians are a good target group. Many of them are elderly, and money left in wills can really add up. I will focus my future efforts in trying to connect this group with our schools.

It is really gratifying to see their jackasses, like the h-wifers and others village idiots on this blog, spluttering obscenities and yelling ‘haters!’ at us with hate-contorted faces. It is interesting, though, that this blog does not seem to have attracted into their ranks anyone who actually is Hungarian, or even ordinarily intelligent.
Elle at March 7, 2010 2:43 PM

You are so right Elle! These people should look into a mirror to see what everyone else sees when they spew their filth and HATE. They are the personification of HATE. More and more people recognize them for the HATERS they are. I see no reason for any more Hungarians to post on this blog. I compose some posts presenting some ideas that could be the basis of serious discussion but expect nothing more than the howling from the usual HATERS and they never disappoint me.
My post “BIG JIM ON HATERS” was past overdue. All you ever see from these is HATE, HATE and more HATE while accusing others of HATE. You could see that while my post was partly about Olga, the usual HATERS chimed right in and as expected.
The filth pours so naturally from our “German” that one has to wonder. Would a German be as slimy as this one or just arrogant? Most of the Germans I know are full of themselves but not slimy. Would a German say that millions of German girls and women of all ages deserved to be raped by the Soviet troops after Germany was defeated? I think not. Would a German say that millions of German boys and men murdered deserved to be murdered by the Soviets after Germany was defeated? I think not.
Would a Hungarian say that close to 500,000 Hungarians murdered by the Communists deserved it? I think not. I believe that this German spewing his hatred here is as much German as Barandi and Herenyi are Hungarians.
Should a number of Hungarians, intelligent Hungarians post here? I think not. They have better things to do. I understand that this list may have some use for your academic research but I question the value of it but it is nice to open this link and read your posts, someone who is a Hungarian voter.

@BIG JIM:

‘Should a number of Hungarians, intelligent Hungarians, post here?’

Oh, I wish they would, Big Jim! I should love to send my friends here to read some Hungary-relevant discussions. But, as things are, every discussion that manages to take off is instantly occupied by the ‘german’ and its variations who determinedly fill it with mindless filth. They are such prolific posters that anyone who comes to this blog for a quick assessment of what goes on here will get the impression that only idiots are present. But then, there’s you, and bobscountrybunker and Law and Pávaszem and Farkas László and Mark, and intelligent (and amusing) enquirers like justasking, and Sophist. (Correct me if I missed anyone!)

@ Farkas László

Laci, of course first-rate pedagogues, state-of-the art research facilities and generous research funds would do us good, as they would anyone else. But remember that even as we are, we were the first in the world to develop the bird ’flu serum. (I don’t know if that found any commercial success. I have a vague idea that the pharma firms bought another patent.) We are not at all bad on the ‘knowledge’ front. But still, do go ahead with your funds-finding plans. Only please, please make sure that you do not approach outfits like the Soros Foundation. That has done a replay of ‘Greeks bearing gifts’ in many places. (It’s presently rampant in Bosnia and Montenegro. But the Kazaks and Azarbaijanis turfed it out a few years ago.)

Also, why are you primarily concerned with our education system? Its products are much better than the Anglosphere’s, and probably as good that of any place. Should we not give priority to hospitals, and to initiatives like the Gypsy policy JOBBIK proposed?

Dear Farkas Laszlo
I'm not sure whether you have heard of Dr Varga Laszlo who has a web site which is linked under the link szentkoronaorszaga.hu also there is a radio szentkoronaradio.com which have some very intersting előadások on Hungarian history and religion with new discoveries that may interest you, as you did say you're never too old to learn.

Going through Jobbiks manifesto and need a little info from somebody. What religion do the majority of Gypsies follow?

Undeniably, there are many good souls that fill these pages with their half-an-ounce of wisdom.
But let's be brutally frank and speak the truth:
we do not begin to scrape the surface in revealing
what is wrong with Hungary today. What plans do we have to solve corruption,the reform of both the tax and justice systems, better education aimed at vocational needs and the job market, more transparent and accountable government and so on.
I applaud Farkas László because he is optimistic and has the commercial background to understand what it will take to make a Hungary a competitive nation.
I sincerely hope he will always strive to keep us all focused on trying to do and say what is best for Hungary.

......understand what it will take to make a Hungary a competitive nation.
Candidate at March 7, 2010 9:49 PM

It is also useful to understand where Hungary's competitiveness stands right now.
http://www.weforum.org/pdf/GCR09/GCR20092010fullreport.pdf
Go to pg 180 to see how it ranks with respect to 133 other countries on health, education, innovation, institutions & others.

@ Candidate

‘What plans do we have to solve corruption, the reform of both the tax and justice systems, better education aimed at vocational needs …’

Have you read JOBBIK’s election manifesto? There are good plans there.

It is just as well to remember that in a parliamentary system of democracy, elected members of parliament run the state. So whatever wisdom we might pronounce here on how we should do the things you list, we would have done nothing except pronounce. (But putting up an idea, like FL has, for discussion among strangers is a good thing in itself.)

We can, of course, lobby our parliamentarians individually as expert advisers, we can address them as interest groups, publish proposals that gain enough popular support to make them take heed, etc. To be more effective still, we can be filthy-rich corruptors of them.

And why ‘education aimed at vocational needs’? A general education is appropriate for our school children (c. 6-18). Academic and vocational training follows that.

Wow! I had no idea that we are so well placed on ‘national competitiveness prospects’.

I know I shouldn’t joke here, but I must. Greenspan reportedly said: ‘Economists are about as reliable as astrologers … and I don’t know what went wrong with the astrologers'.

@justasking
By and large Roman Catholic. In the dim and distant past they kept their own animistic religion. But now they tend to be Catholics combined with historical superstitions.

Roma are, generally speaking, believers. If not pious in the traditional sense.
Hope that helps.

@Bobs... & justasking: As opposed to Jobbik supporters who can't decide if they are neo-pagans or christians. To the extent that priest and various churches have spoken out against the right's neo-pagan tendencies. http://hetivalasz.hu/itthon/a-taltosok-mar-a-spajzban-vannak-24626/
Let's ask Law about this. He has a cutting intellect with a clear understanding of theocrasy.

‘E tabudöntőnek vélt állásfoglalások felkarolása pedig már politikai program lett: a Jobbik a "hazug finnugor dogma" eltörlését követeli’ (Heti Válasz)

‘These so-called taboo-overturning standpoints have become a political program: Jobbik demands the wiping out of the ‘mendacious Finn-Ugor dogma’.

Vándorló makes a cryptic remark about ‘Jobbik supporters who can't decide if they are neo-pagans or christians’. (Note the lower-case ‘c’). That such an indecision even begins to exist is Vándorló’s personal fantasy. The Heti Válasz article to which he provides a link does not even come close to making the claim that it does exist. This article reports on an expressed priestly concern about a rising interest in the ancient shamanist religion. Even Heti Válasz is not silly enough to claim that JOBBIK is promoting this religion. It ‘links’ JOBBIK to its theme by claiming that this Party takes THE SAME TABOO-OVERTUTNING STANDPOINT when it objects to the dominance of the Finn-Ugor-relationship thesis in the Hungarian school history syllabus. (There are contending theses, such as the Sumerian-Hungarian relationship, evidenced in various ways, but particularly by the ancient rovás irás (a set of symbols unlike the alphabet’s).

JOBBIK declares its Christian standpoint unequivocally..

(Vándorló, can you not read Hungarian, or are you hoping that no-one else on this thread can? This is the second time you misled on the content of a Hungarian text.)

@Elle: Oh, pardon me I forgot to mention the Sumerian theory. Just like the 'hidden history' of the Hungarians.

Let's have a brief look at their linguistic evidence, following the pattern Mai átírás = "sumír eredeti" = "magyar jelentés"
---------------------------
Palesztina = PALAS-TU = "Palócföld"
Názáret = MAG-HAR-RET = "Magyarrét"
Betlehem = BÉT (ház) + LAKOM = "Lakomház / Lakóház"
Gábriel = GAB ["keb"-el] +
RI ["ri"-an] + EL [isten] = "Isten Kebeléből Származó"
Jézus = IEZU / IZ-ZU = "Isteni Tudás"
Mária = MA-RI-A (sumer) = "Égi Anyától Származó"
Magyar = MAH-GAR = "Tudás Népe"
Magdolna = MAG-DA-LA = "Mágusok Városának Éke"
---------------------------
@Elle: You claim to be doing research, have the decency to keep your cover story vaguely believable. Your lack of breeding is one thing.

Here, here's some helpful advice about what real linguists expect in terms of a cogent and believable language theory, not pseudoscientific language comparison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscientific_language_comparison

LF - "The foreign Hungarians are a good target group. Many of them are elderly, and money left in wills can really add up. I will focus my future efforts in trying to connect this group with our schools." Throughout these 130 or so comments I have read your suggestion that foreign Hungarians would donate money to their so-called mother land. Respectfully, this is just wishful thinking. Sure you might get some dough from Hungarian emigrants but finding money from 2nd and 3rd generation Hungarians, those who probably have parents/grandparents of several ethnicities is out of tough with reality. The only ones who might be drawn in are people like we find trolling these pages who are grasping at some sense of belonging since they can't find it normally. Anyone of actual means would never throw money into the corrupt system we currently have now, there is no oversight, transparency or accountability.

Vándorló, you missed my point: I called attention to the fact that you misled, once again, on the content of a Hungarian text. You did so in this case to fake a perception that JOBBIK’s Christianity is ambivalent.

I took no stand on the merits of the Sumerian-Hungarian thesis. I merely pointed out that it exists. And I did not fault you for not mentioning it. You did, anyway. Well, si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

@Elle: Once again, I didn't mislead, rather reported a fact that many of Jobbik's support base and those on the right are confused about their faith/religion and are happy to adopt paganism alongside selected christian symbols. This is also shown by Jobbik's leadership unwillingness to accept other Christians as equals, in direct opposition to the central tenet of Catholic faith outlined in the Nicene Creed.
Tell me Elle, exactly which University are you pretending to be doing academic work for?

@Vandorloo
szkíta-hun-avar has appeared for centuries amongst many writings and your Commie Neo Liberals are out to destroy evidence of presenting these discoveries be it ground breaking archeological evidence, you have a team of prostitute scholars out to ridicule and tarnish anything challenging Fino version. SO FUCK YOU!!!

@Law: Bless you Law! I knew I could summon up your spirit from the netherworld with this kind of bait.
What do you think it would take to re-awaken the kraken Tünde? To be honest, she's waiting to get her fat job back with the Fidesz government, so I doubt we'll ever hear from her again.

Vándorló took another flight of fancy and said: ‘…many of Jobbik's support base and those on the right are confused about their faith/religion and are happy to adopt paganism alongside selected christian symbols.’

What utter drivel! Where does he get this from? Inanity of this sort does not emanate even from the most JOBBIK-hating of his preferred media (i.e. the vulgar lie-peddlers that JOBBIK will close down).

And ‘Jobbik's leadership unwillingness to accept other Christians as equals’? Whaaaaat?

But no matter: it's good that despite your raging desire to put JOBBIK down, you demonstrate that you cannot come up with a single rational criticism of it, let alone of its election manifesto. (And Vándorló, can you argue your case like a decent man? Or is your only strength in fake translation and heaving insults?)

Now, please expect no further posts from me. I have the cut of your jib.

@Elle: "I have the cut of your jib." FFS!

Economists are about as reliable as astrologers … and I don’t know what went wrong with the astrologers'
Elle at March 7, 2010 11:14 PM
@Elle - Maybe the quality of their education wasn't as good as it is in Hungary.(pg 409). It might also explain why I have many students from foreign countries.

Paganism, symbolism,ritual-ism, religion,etc etc.
The bank do not accept any of these currencies.
They want "hard cash" repayment otherwise you are on the growing debtors list and you will find it very difficult to get credit in the future.
Once the comic book bullshit is dispensed with in trying to lure voters into some kind of common denominator, holy joe, "gang" perhaps we can then start trying to deal with corruption, crank politicians, outdated bureaucracy at central and local level,a crazy tax system, private companies receiving government handouts,-why? etc etc.
Added to all this we need vocational training programmes, a overhaul of the education system, and economists that have a grip on reality and understand what the free market is all about.
The Hungarian economy is in tatters and the present government are just sitting on funds loaned by the IMF and EU, because there is no money finding its way into general circulation and businesses are failing and going bust by the bucket load.
Jobbik are at least addressing some of the major problems even though some of their policies are a tad misguided.

Der Elle,

I did mention raising money for Hungarian charities and other intiatives besides education. I focused on education in the last few comments because it is a good example of something very worthwhile, and which yet takes enormous amounts of money.

I also placed especial focus on education because of the ripple effect over time. There I mean 20-50 years. I want to enable more and more worthy people to go to school (via scholarships) and to get a world class education without leaving Hungary.

Also keep in mind that good schools bring in money via a "reverse exporting" process. They attract foreign students who then can be asked to pay their own way.

The available talent pool of highly trained specialists affects the business and investment climate. On this website, I have also advocated raising venture capital for Hungarian start up firms, especially those headed by scientists and engineers with an idea.

The example you give of the state of science in Hungary is a good sign of course. Given that science is not static, but constantly changing (meaning that it is a money eating beast; the more you feed it, the more it wants!), I want to make sure the resources are there to keep Hungarian science up to date in the future.

As far as donations from certain individuals, I feel the receiving institutions have to have the last say so as well as some sense of where the money ought to go, without undue restrictions from the giver.

@ Bobs;

Thanks.

@Bobs... & justasking: As opposed to Jobbik supporters who can't decide if they are neo-pagans or christians. To the extent that priest and various churches have spoken out against the right's neo-pagan tendencies
Vándorló at March 8, 2010 10:06 AM
====
This article reports on an expressed priestly concern about a rising interest in the ancient shamanist religion. Even Heti Válasz is not silly enough to claim that JOBBIK is promoting this religion
...
Vándorló, can you not read Hungarian, or are you hoping that no-one else on this thread can? This is the second time you misled on the content of a Hungarian text
Elle at March 8, 2010 11:18 AM
====
Vándorló, you missed my point: I called attention to the fact that you misled, once again, on the content of a Hungarian text. You did so in this case to fake a perception that JOBBIK’s Christianity is ambivalent
Elle at March 8, 2010 11:52 AM
====
Vándorló took another flight of fancy and said: ‘…many of Jobbik's support base and those on the right are confused about their faith/religion and are happy to adopt paganism alongside selected christian symbols.’
Elle at March 8, 2010 12:45 PM
----
Well checking the different posts in this debate just shows how 'Vándorló' has hold one consistent argument and line of reasoning from the beginning, while 'elle/sophie/tünde' ("Note the lower-case" 'e/s/t') starts with claiming that "Jobbik supporters who can't decide" (= not all, can be a minority) equals the party of Jobbik
-
Cont

'She' then continues ignoring that 'she' has fabricated this, by any standards, 'lie' and then uses the argument that 'Vándorló' has used from the first post (Jobbik supporters) as "another flight of fancy"
.
So 'elle/sophie/tünde' is really dishonest
Of course she have understood she was 'mistaken', but 'she' will never be a 'man' to admit it

Dear Mr. Mercer,

The reservations you express are a fair critique and might reflect objections we will meet in the course of fund raising. They are therefore well worth addressing.

Throughout the world, there are many people who are prepared to donate substantial sums of money to higher education. The very wealthiest have set up foundations for giving to worthy causes. Reaching potential donors is a marketing issue pure and simple. You find the target group and devise a marketing approach. This can involve advertising, "hitting the road" and making presentations to groups or key individuals etc. If you don't do anything, you get nothing.

I am talking a strategy for the next 50 years, not 5 months. That involves institutionalising our marketing and outreach effort so that it continues for the long haul. I therefore propose that leading Hungarian unis link up with foreign Hungarian associations and coordinate this. Perhaps a new association can be formed that works for these objectives.

I would of course target Hungarians, but you would also have to appeal to individuals and foundations that are already committed to funding higher education throughout the world.

As to 3rd or 4th generation Hungarians abroad, you never know until you really try. Earlier here, I advocated increasing tourism and youth camps among this group; all of that can help to get them more interested. Find these people and market to them.

I love it when people who are blatantly agnostics, or secular athesists, start talking about the religious convictions of believers as being "confused". And would furthermore have people believe that Jobbik is neo-Pagan...

Like the massive Apostolic Cross on the party's emblem, isn't a bit of a give away?

Like the erection of crosses nationwide (and every year since) wasn't the party's first significant act?

Like Vona saying in the manifesto (pg.21) that, "European culture has been constructed on three pillars: Greek thinking, Roman law, and Christian morality. As jobbikosok, we believe, not only that Europe’s past has been founded on these values, but also that its future should continue to be." isn't a bit of a clue?

(What chance of any other party leader making such a confident an unequivocal declaration in their manifesto?!)

But no!
We're all running around naked hitting each other with acacia bark worshipping Crom apparently. And these critics expect you to take them seriously.

It's not neo-paganism you morons, it's called Christianity.

Look. Try and understand. The more your tell naked lies about Jobbik, the more people enquire to find out the truth themselves, and then, the more they are actually drawn to the party, because they realize it is subject to such a concerted campaign of deception.

@Bobs...: So the Catholic bishopry are atheists or agnostics? Oh, you mean me? The source is more important than the content. Here's a logic 101 for you: Which logical fallacy/ies are you committing there? Now do you understand that bollocks is bollocks even when you are sounding indignant and puffed up - like a.... toad?
Here, read it from the source and then tell me this shite they are upset about isn't spewed all over the Hungarian right's ill-informed and ill-educated websites and szkíta bookshops: http://uj.katolikus.hu/cikk.php?h=1386

As for putting up crosses and the holier than though shit, that's what decent, normal people call hy-po-cri-cy

Do Jobbik accept the Roma as their equals and treat them as brothers/sisters? Do they Bobs...?

Farkas László. Hope you are well!!
Ignore most of the drivel (I'm sure you do) on this thread. Frustrated teachers, and clerics, and hermits, and wannabe economists, and so on.
Here is some good news from the sister site, realdeal:
FlyBalaton airport is up-and-running again and:"Lufthansa will operate weekly and biweekly flights to FlyBalaton Airport from Frankfurt, Dusseldorf, Hamburg, Dresden, Leipzig."
NOW GET A DECENT AIRLINE FLYING TO LAKE BALATON
FROM THE UK AND EVERYTHING STARTS TO LOOK ROSY AGAIN...!!!

@Wings: "Frustrated teachers, and clerics, and hermits, and wannabe economists" But you told us you are/were a teacher, then you said you are a business man who helps Hungarian companies, then you said you are Hungarian.... Are you frustrated?

Dear Wings,

Thanks. I like to respect the concerns of people who address me and my proposals in a respectful manner. The objections I might see here mirror those we would encounter in the "real world". I take it as "practice" for the day when negotiation and outreach is taking place in earnest.

Interesting news about the Balaton airport. Allowing for a large new influx of tourist trade can be a significant economic boost to a region. Airports worldwide present the same set of trade-offs: increased travel, tourist money and trade on the plus side; increased noise, congestion and pollution on the minus side. I hope some workable trade-off can be worked out. Economic development is never free, and often entails hidden social and environmental costs. But then the same thing can be said for poverty!

@ Farkas László

Laci, would you consider modifying your last phrase in this sentence: ‘As far as donations from certain individuals, I feel the receiving institutions have to have the last say so as well as some sense of where the money ought to go, without undue restrictions from the giver’? I’d like you to take out ‘undue’,

Otherwise, A1 for your plan!

@Vándorló
There's something so endearing about a person who talks about logical fallacies one minute, and their interlocutor being a toad the next. Charming as always.

What part of my mentioning Chirstian imigiary in Jobbik. Christian actions by Jobbik. Or Christian manifesto convictions from Jobbik. Consitute a logical fallacy? None.

(Rather convincing rebuttal of your continued bullshit that Jobbik supporters are confused neo-pagans though, isn't it? Interesting that such people don't establish the confused neo-pagan party. No instead, weirdly, they join the party which, with every other breath, tells you it's Christian Nationalist.
You were peddling this line over at Hungarian Spectrum a while back, I recall. And you didn't convince anyone there either. How Jobbik supporters are all split, confused, and are labouring under agonized contradicitons. And yet when it comes down to it, it always ends up as little more than fevered speculation on your part, doesn't it?)

Oh and by the way, what evidence did you bring to the discussion which indicates Jobbik to be neo-pagan? That's right! None.

What part of the article you linked to, mentions either Jobbik or National Radicalism. Oh, silly me! None.

Now teach us all again about logical fallacies, or go into childish ad hominems. Seriously, go ahead, either would be good. Don't worry, I always yawn disinterestedly when I'm absolutely fascinated...

Lufthansa back at Fly Balaton is really good news - though just a small beginning/rebirth for the Sármellék airfield.

Basel/Mulhouse hasn't been confirmed yet, also there are rumours about Russia/Ukraine ...

Thanks should be addressed to the Mutsch family whose travelagency in Heviz has done much here and organizes those Packages flight/hotel/wellness.

Of course the really big thing would be regular flights to the UK again - but I've heard nothing yet in that direction ...

Like Vona saying in the manifesto (pg.21) that, "European culture has been constructed on three pillars: Greek thinking, Roman law, and Christian morality. As jobbikosok, we believe, not only that Europe’s past has been founded on these values, but also that its future should continue to be." isn't a bit of a clue?
(What chance of any other party leader making such a confident an unequivocal declaration in their manifesto?!)
...
It's not neo-paganism you morons, it's called Christianity.
Look. Try and understand. The more your tell naked lies about Jobbik, the more people enquire to find out the truth themselves, and then, the more they are actually drawn to the party, because they realize it is subject to such a concerted campaign of deception.
bobscountrybunker at March 8, 2010 3:26 PM
---
No one ever said 'Jobbik' is pagan, only that some of its supporter, but obviously 'bob & elle/sophie/tunde' have a problem dividing its supporters from the party itself
.
Strangely they have no problem doing that division with Jobbik-members found out to be convicted murderers and tax-fraudsters, etc
-
If you want to discuss pagan things, Law is your best friend
Or Law is no longer a Jobbik-supporter now when there is a split between Budahazy and Jobbik?
Law belongs to the 'non-believers' now?

I forgot in my earlier post about this from the Jobbik program
That is probably the most middle of the road statement of that program and could be made by any party aimed at spreading the Christian Faith, like KDNP
It is a rather normal statement in Europe from any of the different national parties that belong to the EPP EP Party-Group

@Bobs...: Are Jobbik supporters divided and confused? Yes. As you said, over at Hungarian Sectrum I wrote, the right is divided. To help people with the linguistic reference (called 'deixis') I'll add that context here. I wrote this:

---------------
"Csurka is now claiming Jobbik are moving to the left and out of the kindness of his patriotic heart he's helping Fidesz to achieve its 2/3rds majority by giving them MIÉP's votes. http://www.magyarhirlap.hu/hirek.html?r_id=5&hir_id=190887
The truth is there are enormous divisions in the far right over issues such as: 1. their relationship with Russia 2. overt anti-Semitism 3. Christian vs pagan doctrines 4. 'propagande par le fait' anarchistic acts vs working within the system 5. responding to rogue elements such as Budaházy etc..."
-----------------

I'll make a prediction. Jobbik will begin to disintegrate ater the local elections (they may be in Autumn or later, depending on Fidesz's timing).

While the far right have a target and opposition they can hold themselves together. With the local elections after the main ones, they can concentrate on further differentiating themselves from Fidesz. But their existing tensions will destroy them. And it will come from withing the top eschelons.
Come the mid-winter festival (Christmas/New Year), there will be lots to celebrate.

Jobbik can only keep their hate focused on a live target. Once it's dead they need fresh victims. Bullies and bullies, they are never happy in themselves.

@Vandorloooo

Who is Csurka? they have no chance in hell in helping anyone, if MIEP support goes towards Fidesz it's going to help Jobbik gain even more votes, you idiot!
Also Fidesz voters inturn remember the last elections where MIEP was a failure who want's them as a partner, nobody you fool.

Hello Elle!

Let me clarify what I meant. If someone is giving a lot of money, they have a right to insist that there be a proper accounting of how the money is spent, complete with recepts and documentation. What we don't want to see is money donated for say, scholarships being diverted by the university president and his trustees for private yachts, Bentleys, dope or into private Swiss bank accounts! Any large donor or foundation should insist on verifying how their money is spent, as well as a periodic review and reporting process.

Undue influence in my mind would be a donor wanting to overide the established administrative policies of the school (like giving the donor's unqualified hoochy coochy girlfriend a "doctorate" and putting her on the faculty.), or asking that the funds be used to violate academic standards. Sometimes you have to say no to some people and send the check back.

O, relief! Thanks, Laci.

About the Balaton airport, has anyone heard whether the planes will be allowed to fly over the water? I would not be in favor of that, as it is a well known fact that airliners leak jet fuel on the ground below. (Ask anyone whose house is under an air approach near an airport!) We can't have the water contaminated by that. Aircraft should be routed over a land approach only, hopefully away grom densely populated housing areas.

@FL: Regarding flights over water

When we flew to London the plane went over the Kiss Balaton, which is a very sensitive area - but I haven't heard about any problems with the water quality.

BTW: I think this discussion should be part of realdeealhu where other threads about the airport are ...

@Vándorló
May God grant that your prediction be just as accurate as all your others have been.
Or should I say, "may the gods grant"? ROFL

@Bobs...: "...as accurate as all your others..." Are those the predictions you acknowledged yourself that I didn't make and you were mistaken, over at Hungarian Spectrum? Parkinson's is a degenerative disease, so memory loss and slowed cognitive speed are to be expected. You wrote the acknowledgement less than 10 days ago. You have my sympathy.

Justasking wrote:"Dude, Elle is giving you the
brush off, and I don't think it's because she's
scared to enter into a debate with you."
-
Really. It's plain as day that not only does she
have no response to why she's dishonest, she has
no answer to whether she really works at an
"accredited University"... That should be a Pretty
easy one to answer. Unless she's a liar.
-
I have to admit, I'm losing interest *extremely*
quickly with this site because of the dishonesty.
Having been caught in lies, they just squirm away,
change names, copy/paste more BS and continue. I
don't know about the rest of you, but I *truly*
have better things to do than chase around hacks
on a site like this. I'd rather debate people who
are either a little more professional or where it
might be productive.
-
As much as I like some of the people in here, FL,
Olga, Viking, Wolfi, Vandorlo, Curious George, and
many others... as much as the "antagonists" here
say they don't want to talk about the negative,
every posting is nasty and hate-filled.
-
I *know* that the goal of these people is to
create the impression on this site that Jobbik is
*not* 14% (cough) but more like 50% and at least
HERE in this venue, it's working! Obviously what
happens here is irrelevant to the actual VOTE, but
I am getting turned off to the whole Hungarian
experience, sadly due to these folks.
-
*Expect* the 4th gen Hungarians to be disgusted
with these folks... If Jobbik is future of Hungary
none of my $ will BE there! :)

@ Elle, Jim (Mark?)@&Co

Fascinating as it is to read endless repetition and rhetoric from you, I thought I'd address two points concerning the election

1. Jim mentioned a couple of days ago what a complete waste of time it was for JOBBIK supporters to express opinions on this website as only a couple of people here are eligible to vote and they are "the converted" -Made perfect sense and yet the postings continue. Therefore the posting are not politically motivated. I know from experience how stressful it is to be heading towards a election when you are passionate about the outcome. So I understand that all the verbal abuse you level against those who don't share your views relieve stress. Consider for a change going for a long run or a work-out at they gym which will give you opportunities to engage voters in conversations and converting them to your "truth"

2. No matter how I look at it, FIDESZ is going to win a majority and the rest of the votes will be divided by the minority parties. Thus "the problem" cannot be blamed on those without a vote. The problem lies with the majority of Hungary's eligible voters who refuse to buy into the JOBBIK agenda and would rather vote for a party that doesn't have a clear cut economic policy than JOBBIK .

So rather than waste precious time on this website, it would make more sense to concentrate on convincing the Hungarian voters that JOBBIK is the answer. Or not.

@ Wolfi

Have a great vacation in the Wild West (USA?)

@Farkas László --
Since many here defer to you as a sort of "elder
statesman" here, I wanted to ask *you* a quick
question to help me decide whether it is worth my
time to continue to get to know more about
Hungary, since I am in a state of some disgust
with a certain percentage of the Hungarian
population as represented here on this political
site...
-
Vandorlo has expressed the opinion that the Far-
Right/Racist (Mark/Jim-like "vile Jewish
scum/murderer!" chanting) element is over-
represented on this site relative to their
True proportion in the Hungarian population...
-
I go back and forth between wanting to put
together perhaps a group trip from the USA to
Hungary as well as contacting family-friends who
are very active in the world of charitable
foundations overseas, but after my experiences in
this group, I would be extremely
embarrassed if a large group of wealthy
Jews were greeted at the border with a chorus of
Magyar Garda singing "Go Home Scum-sucking JEWS!"
not to mention if they found out that charitable
funds went to people who use it to propagandize
against Roma and so forth.
-
If the Far-Right folk on this site ARE
"representative" of Hungarian people in general,
could you please let me know? Because I will save
myself the embarrassment and frankly would prefer
not to "help"/enrich this culture in any way going
forward.
-
(cont'd)

Bystander you have done enough damage we dont want your dirty money here.

(cont'd)
-
Mr. Laszlo --
-
I know that you often straddle the fence in order
to better engage all sides and I understand your
strategy; however this has left me with the
feeling that in Hungary the "silent majority" may
choose to "go along in order to get along" and
therefore tacitly endorse some of the extremism by
not speaking out against the overtly racist
aspects, even if you disagree (or *don't* you?).
-
So, if you could, Mr. László, could you please
help this Hungarian-American and give me some idea
if the ranting I see on this site is *likely* to
be encountered by a potential visiting "tour
group", or is this just Jobbik's 'cyber-warfare
unit' here online only, stacking the deck to make
them look like their opinions are the norm in-
country?
-
I would love to know the answer to this before I
contribute my energies further toward my
ancestor's homeland. I really don't feel like
running into Elle/Mark/Bobs/Ricsi/Law with a big
tour group filled with nice civilized people...
-
Thanks FL! Hope to see that film festival soon...
might be welcome antidote to this site; might have
to be my preferred window into Hungary instead of
the dysfunctional characters in here...

@Law,
-
Thank you SO much for helping me make my point... I
was going to illustrate with examples, but you
posted so conveniently and so FAST between my
postings I could not have been more convincing if I
had done it myself!
-
THANKS, Jew-hater!

Dear Bystander,

The nations of Europe are all worth getting to know better, including Hungary. They all have a rich history and culture. When you learn some of that history, you come to understand that life has not been a level playing field for many of them. That breeds resentment, especially when the existing political institutions are not performing, or offer little hope for change. Combine that with a stagnant or declining standard of living, then you have a potential powder keg. The counry, like so many others, is going through a hard time.

I don't anticipate organized demonstrations against your tourist group by the Magyar Garda or anyone else, assuming that they are not a political group or overtly involved in the political process.

As to the feedback you see on this website, keep in mind that it is not moderated. Some people resort to a level of personal attack and insults that they wouldn't dare to in real life. That's not to say that there aren't people who believe as many do here, but your group will be tourists after all. If they were to live and work in Hungary, they would meet many shades of opinion.

I encourage you and yor friends to come and enjoy themselves.

Thanks FL, for your comments... if you have a
moment, I guess if I could clarify --
-
First of all, I certainly am not putting together
any *political* group, I was thinking of extended
family members, and while I know people involved
in charities, they are non-political (unless
feeding people in Darfur is "political")...
-
My question I was hoping you could answer was... I
was wondering as far as the NUMBERS go... This
site appears to be (rough approximation):
-
45% Liberal
10% Centrist
45% FAR Right and willing to "get racial"
-
Do you find these *numbers* to be something of
what people would typically find in Hungary?
That's my question, if you have the time...
-
I also understand that while I live in America
that Europe has a rich history, like you said:
"When you learn some of that history, you come to
understand that life has not been a level playing
field for many of them." And yes, I DO understand
that history has many victims, and yes the OTHER
half of my family tree (the non-Hungarian one I've
never discussed here) has been wiped out
*completely* -- not a SINGLE European relative
survived the Holocaust. (And yes, I know your
far-right is deserved sick of hearing about that,
I present that nonetheless to get them to realize
their relatives who were victims of Communist
regimes are not "special" in that respect, so they
shouldn't act like *I* know nothing of suffering.)
-
So, if you could let me know if you see numbers
"out there" similar to "in here"...? Thx.

You’re nothing but a provocateur bystander, spreading lies, already awre of the slimy tactics you use.

Aw, gee, Law and you are a credit to your people!
You *really* should work for the Hungarian Tourist
Board! If people like you have your voices heard
loudly, Hungary will be a leader among pariah
nations! Thank you for helping me in my decision to
save a lot of time and energy on a people who really
deserve whatever fate deals them.

Dear Bystander,

This website is non representative of Hungary in the sense that it is for English speakers.

As far as proportions of liberals versus nationalists that you will encounter, that depends on where you go and what circles of people you mix with. If you are just going to be tourists seeing tourist sites, then it shouldn't be all that important. I wouldn't discuss WW2 and it's tragic events in casual conversation with strangers. If you do that, be ready for a possibly heated discussion!

Thanks FL for your reply --

Your reply kind of suggests to me, that "for a
tourist, you should proo-o-o-bably be able to
escape the country without being attacked for your
race"... Wow, they should put that in the
brochures!
-
I'm guessing this also implies that if I spent any
extended time living/working in Hungary
that I should *indeed* expect to be treated "like
a Jew" is in this forum... How exciting.
-
It's funny because from the very first day I
logged onto this site (a co-worker pointed it out
to me and he was SHOCKED at the anti-Semitism
exploding off the screen) it was "Jew this and Jew
that"... well BEFORE I got here... As much as Law
calls me a 'provocateur' for some reason, I did
not in my opinion 'bring up WWII' *before* I heard
the Holocaust denied.
-
So, I wonder if you (FL) believe it was my
"bringing up WWII" that actually was the cause of
this ugliness. It's fairly disappointing to me
that I really never hear condemnation from you,
Mr. Laslow, of some of the more ugly comments from
these people, in fact you engage them without
blinking...
-
In attempts to be even-handed I sadly am accepting
that you quietly give your acceptance rather than
speak out for what is Good and Human -- I
understand the "Extended hand vs. clenched fist"
philosophy but consider you might have gone too
far in the other direction. Just a thought.
-
I know it's no loss to anyone here, but I think I
will spend my time and money in places where I'm
made to feel more welcome.

Dear Bystander,

Having travelled the world, I have seen a lot of things in a number of countries that I absolutley did not like or which I felt could be changed for the better. I also found out long ago that natives often take offense at criticisms, even when they basically agree and see the truth of my observations. The human ego is a fragile thing. When I am just a visitor, I believe that it is best to shut up about things that I don't approve of.

The problem gets even worse when you go into political differences, or in different interpretations of a country's history than what the natives want to accept.

When a visitor, I would humbly suggest not trying to change people or the world.

When it comes to this website, countering nasty comments just breeds more nasty comments. It's futile, in that nobody ends up being "converted" through argument. I've never seen anyone on this website admit that: "Oh now I see, I was wrong and you were right all along." I believe it's best not to engage in such discussions at all.

Around here, there is no concept or appreciation of "Politically correct speech". Here on politics.hu, people say a lot of things that would get them in hot water in western countries.
And they enjoy saying these things too! When you are visiting Hungary, expect hospitality and courtesy, but my advice is to avoid political discussions.

"When I am just a visitor, I believe that it is
best to shut up about things"

"The problem gets even worse when you go into
political differences, or in different
interpretations of a country's history"

"When a visitor, I would humbly suggest not trying
to change people or the world"

"I believe it's best not to engage in such
discussions at all"

"... my advice is to avoid political discussions"

---
If Im a visitor to this website what do those
things mean? Saying I should just shut up and not
try to change the world? Point taken! Thanks,
this is a great website.

Dear "Anonymous",

I was asked my opinion from someone who wanted to visit Hungary in person. Dealing with people face to face is very different than posting here.

Here under the cover of anonymity (like yourself) poeple are free to say whatever they want (and they do). I would never tell anyone around here to shut up.

Bystander: I too have decided that I have far more important things to do in the 'real' world than listen to being called 'a hate filled liar'.I also understand you having second thoughts about going to Hungary.My experience though is that the Jew haters here are not representative of Hungarians in general.What I saw was that 'active' hatred was reserved for Roma mostly, and although there were sometimes murmurs about Jews, it wasn't quite as vitriolic.When I was in Miskolc, there was a Holocaust memorial day which was well attended by the community in general; not just Jewish people.
-
To some extent I can understand your questions to FL, and would have to admit that at times I have thought it would be good if he spoke out if for no other reason than others might listen to him more, however, we have to accept that he was not 'put' here to be a referee in an unwinnable argument.He posts here in his own time, giving his views and thoughts on what is best for Hungary.I agree with almost everything he says, and think the site is far better off with him than without him.For those of us who are genuine about wanting to learn and engage, FL is a bright light in a dark night, so I'm really hesitant about imposing conditions on him.I don't think it is 'fair' to expect him to directly oppose his countrymen even if he does not share their opinions.Please don't think I wish to minimise your feelings though as I recognise the seriousness of the issues you raise.
Regards,
C.

Dear Cinead and Bystander,

I appreciate that. The main reason I believe I get consideration around here is that I respect the right of an individual to believe what they want. I don't go about demolishing or trying to disprove a poster's pet theories. If someone believes the earth is flat, or the moon made of green cheese, then I don't feel my role is to "prove" that they are wrong or to argue with them. I have my own things to put forth, and I engage anybody who responds to my posts who does so with respect, which is almost always.

Dear Bystander,

I understand your concerns, and my advice was directed to you. What "anonymous" above wants to say and do, both in the real world and around here, is entirely up to him.

Talpra magyar, hí a haza!
Itt az idő, most vagy soha!
Rabok legyünk vagy szabadok?
Ez a kérdés, válasszatok! –
A magyarok istenére
Esküszünk,
Esküszünk, hogy rabok tovább
Nem leszünk!

I wonder what Buda Pest will be doing on 15 March this year: remembering 1848, or declaring a contemporary revolution? For the Pesti, events are already decided as party rallies. That will make 15 March look more like the Kuruc and Labanc divisions of the late 17th and early 18th century. All sorts of parallels come to mind.

We (my family) will not be in Pest on that day. We have decided to stay in our dear little city, Sopron, where Katólikus and Református services are being held simultaneously at ten in the morning. Then, there will be various celebratory events. We shall attend a poetry reading at the University, where recitals will open with the National Song, then young poet’s will read the pieces they wrote for this day. I shall be thinking of the Pesti, though. God bless. Be safe.

@Elle: You better nip on a plane fast then hadn't you! I can't see how else you are going to arrive anywhere in Hungary in time, otherwise. Traveling to Vienna, otherwise you'll be passing through Pest and be able to greet all the lovely Pesti in your own patronising way from your gilded carriage en route.

@ Vandorlo

Since you seem to be on line:

I asked Elle and Jim-Mark but they will never answer.

What is the point of promoting JOBBIK and spewing all this hate against minorities on this website where people don't have the vote?

Should all this talent not be used to persuade eligible voters to cast their votes for Vona?

The polls show that the large majority of Hungarians would rather vote for Orban who had no available economic policies as of last week rather than a party that reminds Hungarians of the 1930's . That's what makes me proud to say I am Hungarian.

(I wrote "last week" in case Orban came up with the policies this week. Had no time to check it yet)

@Elle: Jobbik put blood ties and their simple model of 'purity' above every other consideration. They would reject a highly qualified graduate, one who has been through a Hungarian university and can speak the language, in favour of handing a passport to someone who has never lived here, worked here, knows what day-to-day living here means and doesn't speak the language (or only poorly). Their model of the ideal Hungarian is as backwards and misguided.

As to why they get their sheep to bleat, it's simply to give these fools something to do and to appear larger and more influential than they are. Anyone who reads Hungarian would laugh at the dominance of Jobbikites here.

A lot of these people are unfortunately recruited through the expat Hungarian friendship and fellowship societies abroad, where far-right supporters seem to flourish. This is certainly true of the one in the US and in Sweden. I know a few in the south of England and Edinburgh, though these are all 'normal' meaning at least either just what people expect of the right and left, without the unfounded bile and hatred (especially considering their lack of any direct contact or knowledge of the things they talk about).

Anyway, it is all clearly done on a planned rotation basis. Mark wasn't kidding when he referred to his spot manning the forums.

And you have to remember, these people have no where else to go since the far right doesn't accept dissent and the expressions of opinions ideas they don't agree with

Take care everybody, I think I will stay away for
some time, since my net feelings about Hungarians
sadly from this site are making me understand why
the rest of my family really wants nothing to do
with the country.
-
I believe in this environment I now understand the
concept of "brain drain" (I don't mean that as a
compliment to myself, but mean that I understand
why many very high-achieving
intellectuals/scientists/artists decide(d) to get
the hell out of certain countries... I was never
"in" but my experience here turned me off to
pursuing it further (at least for a long time).
-
I think I will go visit my sister in Holland where
the people are nice and enlightened and educated.
They really are nice over there and I don't get
called a 'Jew' over there at all!
-
I hope the Law/Bob/Marks/etc. understand that by
making a hostile environment to others they have a
direct hand in limiting the options for Hungary's
future... Many hundreds of them together can
really damage Hungary's reputation, in my opinion.
-
Well, good luck to you all and perhaps I will come
back to visit and see what is happening at some
later date -- I will be "Bystander" so I won't
come sneaking back like some like to do...
-
As far as FL goes, I understand your 'neutrality'
policy, but I think very occasionally you could
shoot out a quick aside like "well THAT was an
inappropriate comment! But you are correct that
the Hungarian wines are excellent!" etc. IMHO.
-
Good luck to you all and to Hungary --

@ Bystander

Instead of judging all Hungarians, why don't you take note that the majority are voting FIDESZ and only a small minority are ultra right-wing (who live on this website)

So it's a pretty good indication the majority of Hungarians are not like this.

Cannot judge the States according to the Birthers the The Party crowd nor the KKK. Cannot look at Sarah Palin and make a judgment about American women.

I cannot imagine being Jewish and reading all this garbage but please step back and look at the majority .

Bystander: I can honestly say that when I was in Hungary I never heard people speaking in public as they do here.Actually, when I asked about Jobbik or the MG, most people visibly winced in discomfort of having to explain.What you see here really isn't representative of most.Most people I knew felt that all politicians were just as bad as each other regardless of what colour their stripes.Really when you look at it, even here on this site, the number of really extreme posters does not form the majority.
-
I do understand your feelings though, and wish you well in your travels.If you are looking for a place to liberate yourself of some financial reserves, do consider going south of the equator to Australia again.I'm sure your money is as good as anyone else's there.If you haven't already, you should consider going to the north...some of the most beautiful country in the world.Go in winter though, because summer is brutal.
-
Don't give up on Hungary though. There are some truly fantastic people there, who sadly, don't get as much attention as the outspoken minority.

Dear Bystander,

I understand your position. It's not a perfect world.

I have long ago figured out what I want to do around here and how I want to do it. It works for me, and gives many of my ideas a respectful hearing.

Saying things to people like "that was an inapprpriate comment" around here will almost always draw a hostile reaction that usually ends up in insults. Instead of making matters better, it makes them worse. Then people will revel in saying the things you were objecting to in the first place. Remember that the discussions here are not moderated; Erik will permit anything short of incitement to violence.

You are free to make such comments here if you like. As for myself, I am and will always be more concerned with the appropriateness of my own comments than with those of others! What others do is their own perogative and choice.

Olga, you are right --
It's funny because I had you in mind as one of the few "nice Hungarians" I 'met' here! The other nice people I met, Viking, Vandorlo, Wolfi, Curious George, Cinead, etc. all seem to be recent immigrants to Hungary, so *you* sort of stood out in my mind (besides FL, who I already addressed) as the ONE nice native-Hungarian I met here and I hope you keep up the 'good fight'!
-
I DO realize that this site may not be reflective of "real Hungarian" opinion (though for the life of me I couldn't get FL to word it that way, he was kind of doing a word-dance, (unlike Vandorlo) probably would mess with his 'neutral stance'?)... So, I don't hold bad feelings for all Hungarians, I really do wish them well... But the experience with the likes of Elle/Law/Mark/Bobs/etc really strongly turned me off to wanting to reconnect with that piece of my family's history.
-
I had a moment of realization last night where I suddenly realized what a blessing/gift my great grandparents gave me when they sacrificed what they had to pack up and move the family to America -- it was an emotional moment for me as I realized they gave me the greatest gift by getting me out of that country, and in fact possibly saved our actual lives by getting us away from there before the Holocaust.
-
People like Law/Bobs/Elle etc. remind me that mindsets haven't changed very much, and that I truly truly have never been prouder to be American. I hope that Hungary can get its house in order!

@Bystander: In your expression of disgust, disappointment and frustration I perfectly agree, with the caveats Olga applied.

I know it's not particularly helpful, but I would suggest spending any spare time you have learning some more Hungarian and then reading the blogs and comments of everyday Hungarians.

I've often said that even the proficiency level or near mother tongue Hungarians I know virtually never read anything in English about Hungary - why would they? The read the real thing and when they read in English it's about world news and events.

I'd only reiterate that the people claiming to speak for Jobbik here generally have one or more handicaps:
1. do not speak the language
2. do not live here
3. do not earn their living here or contribute to Hungarian society
4. are locked in their tiny sub-cult/culture and have no appreciation of the complexity of Hungarian society as a whole
5. have a model of history/society derived from jobbik/barikád/kuruc/szkíta source exclusively
6. clearly have personal issues
7. some mixture of the above 6.

Being honest I only pop back and generally post elsewhere these days. I get nothing in terms of news content (sorry, but 2 days old MTI/HATC doesn't do it for me), but appreciate what discourse manages to exist above the dross.

Anyway, try some Hungarian news sources if you can!!

Hello Bystander,

You would find many shades of opinion in Hungary, and the range of opinions you find here would be reflected in what many people think.

You started out with me by asking hw you and your Jewish friends would be received in Hungary. If your intention was to visit and to discuss or confront strangers about Hungary's past relations with the Jews and WW2 guilt, then many would consider that provocative. By seeking controversy, you would definitely find it. Same like here.

En "anti-szemét vagyok" )))))))))))) Google this on youtube by Szaniszló Ferenc a Világpanorámában, he speaks very truthfully about what is going on here.

Thanks everyone for your comments --
FL, my original question to you was "If the
Far-Right folk on this site ARE
'representative' of Hungarian people in general,
could you please let me know?"
-
I asked the question partly because I had been
thinking awhile that I might surprise some family
members by putting together a trip, but the
question really was meant to stand on its own... I
was surprised at how difficult it was to get an
answer (Vandorlo seems best to me at 'cutting to
that particular chase'), but again I understand
your 'strategy' at this point and I don't fault
you for that.
-
My question really was not about the *trip* it was
about whether I could take the *percentages of
'leanings'* on this site as representative of the
(non-English-speaking) residents of Hungary, and
FL keeps coming back with stuff like "If your
intention was to visit and to discuss or confront
strangers about Hungary's past relations with the
Jews and WW2 guilt, then many would consider that
provocative. By seeking controversy, you would
definitely find it." and I'll be honest I am
sort of confused by that response, because what
kind of fool would go on a tour of another country
and start asking uncomfortable questions like
that? I'm not mentally-challenged!
-
The heart of the matter is more like "are (non
English speaking) people in Hungary as *racist* as
Law/Elle/Mark/Bobs/etc.? If so, I don't want to
support a people who would hate me just because of
my ethnicity. Thx.

Dear Bystander,

Resentment of Jews continues throughout the region. It's a legacy of history. Whether some of the opinions here are "representative" or not is hard to quantify, as Hungarians dislike talking to pollsters and don't always tell them what they really think. I would say that there are many Hungarians on both sides of the argument, as you would find out if you got them to open up. I can say that you could easily find Hungarians who distrust Jews. That should not surprise you, I'm sure, as that is true for many of the nationalities in the region. Whether it comes out in your contacts with people, depends on them, as it does upon yourself as well. My original suggestion to steer clear of politics and controversial history was well intnetioned advice.

The situation is made worse by the bad economic climate, asn it causes many to seek scapegoats.

Myself, I couldn't see going into Serbia for example, and telling anybody I meet that Serbs committed many crimes in the 90's. Some would agree, while many others would be ready to "give me something"! Same for going into Turkey and mentioning the Armenian slaughter, or going to Israel as a tourist and questioning how the Palestinians have fared. A visitor that goes into these kinds of subjects may end up having his vacation ruined.

I can't give you assurances that nationalism and resentment are dead or that you won't run into it. Traveller beware!

@FL,
Thank you very much for your honesty, it is
greatly appreciated -- I had a feeling there was
bad news you weren't telling me...
-
Rather than try to change the world or Hungary by
myself I suppose I will move on to other things
that interest me and perhaps in a number of years
I can check back with Hungary and see if any
progress has been made.
-
Thanks to everyone in this group, and I suppose I
should give a special shout-out to the ultra-
racists here for doing their best to actually tell
me the truth about feelings in their country (so
you can rest easy I won't soil Hungary with my
"dirty money" for some time). Good luck to
everyone and hopefully one day will come (as it
has to some degree in America) when people in
Hungary will be judged according to their deeds
and not according to their chromosomes. I gather
that day is probably too far off for me to wait
for it here on this site, as much as I've enjoyed
spending time here. Bye, everyone.

@Bystander
Please be kind enough to justify your earlier categorization of me as a "racist," made at 5:57 PM.
Any post, link, quote, comment of mine, in fact, any sort of evidence whatsoever will do just fine.

Oh, and please bear in mind, that I am one of those annoying people who do not think that the statements "I would have thought it was obvious," or, "there's no smoke without fire," constitute persuasive arguments.

I patiently await your proving your disgusting little piece of slander.

@Bystander
I do not think anybody with the right mind would hate you because of your ethnicity. Some people would certainly dislike you if you support the ruling criminal regime and may very well try to convince you that you are on the wrong side. That's about it.

@ Bystander;

Go where ever the Hell you want, when you, however you want. Don't let people intimidate you by their views.

By doing that, you are missing out on visiting a country so beautiful, rich in history, culture etc. And yes, that is a part of you as well.

You will not encounter problems, unless you go out to seek it, and that could be said to any tourist, no matter what nationality, religion colour you are.

Really, when was the last time you went on vacation, walked up to a stranger and go into a deep discussion on Politics or Religion??? I don't, I have better things to do!

So, get that trip together and go and to fuck what some people may think!

Hungary is a good country. Hungarians are good people. They have had some raw deals in the past.
How anyone can judge what Hungary and Hungarians
are like by visiting this site is a mystery.
Those who masquerade as representing Hungary with lightweight and misguided and ineffective postings
- (that's about 90% of the contributors)have nothing to say and merely come on to this forum to have their own ego massaged. Blaming the far right for every misdemeanour under the sun is a cop out.
Bystander you make my heart bleed..so just fuck off. We don't need you.
Bobs and Farkas László I appreciate your efforts and thank you both.

@Bystander
Please be kind enough to justify your earlier categorization of me as a "racist," made at 5:57 PM.
Any post, link, quote, comment of mine, in fact, any sort of evidence whatsoever will do just fine.
Oh, and please bear in mind, that I am one of those annoying people who do not think that the statements "I would have thought it was obvious," or, "there's no smoke without fire," constitute persuasive arguments.
I patiently await your proving your disgusting little piece of slander.
bobscountrybunker at March 9, 2010 8:22 PM
----
Well, I would just like to know what 'bob's continuous anti-Islam rants are supposed to be called?
Feel free to be imaginative and invent new words

The last time I checked Islam was a religion and not a race.
But feel free to interrupt a conversation that has nothing to do with you, again, to give us another one of your gems.

The last time I checked Islam was a religion and not a race.
bobscountrybunker at March 9, 2010 10:22 PM
---
Ahh, we are really into defining words now, right?
But are Jews a race then?
Can you be a 'racist' by being anti-Jewish?
.
NB. I do not claim that 'bob' is anti-Jewish, I just wonder if any anti-Jewish person could be labelled racists, if Jews are suppose to be regarded as a 'people belonging to a religion' and not the race Jews?
The main argument against Jews is that they are a 'race' and therefore have 'degenerated genes'
-
Personally I do not think Jews constitute a 'race' in the strict meaning, one could though discuss if Jews constitute an 'ethnic group', which normally is mixed word-wise with the expression 'race', but here the religion and culture is given a more important meaning

I am not the one making lunatic assertions.
If you

America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have considered 'white' -- but the 'white' attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color."

Either know what you are talking about. Or take your bullshit elsewhere.

+I continue to patiently await your proof that Islam is a race, and thereby that my criticism of Islam (how dare I!), makes me a racist.

Bobs, does being called a racist really worry you? I wonder why. It's just another buzz-word creeps use when they're rumbled.

Bobs, an addendum:

Under the English Race Relations Act, only Jews and Sikhs are classified as groups that are both an ethnic group and a religious group. One cannot with impunity say anything derogatory about an ethnic group. But one can about a religious group. So you can call someone a bloody Christian/Muslin/Hindu, but not bloody Sikh/Jew. Doesn’t this make it difficult to work out when one is a racist?

@Elle
I am not in the least bit bothered.
I just think it's fair that if you accuse someone of something, that you provide proof. You'd be suprised how this very simply principle is treated with complete and utter contempt, by people who would have you believe they are champions of liberal tolerance and understanding.

However, I do really enjoy the sight of idiots who have no idea what they are talking about, making fools of themselves.

In this Viking always oblidges.

The heck I'd be surprised!

How does one become part of the Islamic race, Viking?
What race are people like Cat Stevens, or Yvonne Ridley Viking?
bobscountrybunker at March 9, 2010 11:23 PM
----
I suppose people become part of the 'Islamic Race' the same way as they become part of the 'Jewish Race', right?
-
To narrow down 'racism against Muslims' to a question of 'biology' is not correct, then
.
"European Muslims are a highly diverse mix of ethnicities, religious affiliation,
philosophical beliefs, political persuasion, secular tendencies, languages and cultural
traditions, constituting the second largest religious group of Europe’s multi-faith
society. In fact Muslim communities are no different from other communities in
their complexity. Discrimination against Muslims can be attributed to Islamophobic
attitudes, as much as to racist and xenophobic resentments, as these elements are in
many cases inextricably intertwined"
Page 5
(http://fra.europa.eu/fraWebsite/attachments/Manifestations_EN.pdf)
-
Cont

Cont
-
This definition, from the 1997 document 'Islamophobia: A Challenge For Us All' is widely accepted, including by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia.
The eight components are:
1) Islam is seen as a monolithic bloc, static and unresponsive to change
.
2) Islam is seen as separate and 'other'. It does not have values in common with other cultures, is not affected by them and does not influence them
.
3) Islam is seen as inferior to the West. It is seen as barbaric, irrational, primitive and sexist
.
4) Islam is seen as violent, aggressive, threatening, supportive of terrorism and engaged in a 'clash of civilisations'.
.
5) Islam is seen as a political ideology and is used for political or military advantage
.
6) Criticisms made of the West by Islam are rejected out of hand
.
7) Hostility towards Islam is used to justify discriminatory practices towards Muslims and exclusion of Muslims from mainstream society
.
8) Anti-Muslim hostility is seen as natural or normal
-
I did not call 'bob' a racists I just asked:
"I would just like to know what 'bob's continuous anti-Islam rants are supposed to be called?"
(Viking at March 9, 2010 10:16 PM)
I still wonder, I can agree from a strict 'language-game' 'racism' and 'Islamophobia' is not equal, but they go hand in hand
With the same definition 'anti-Jewishness' and 'racism' would not equate, but it normally do that in peoples' minds
But maybe the people is wrong?

Here is Australia's travel advice for Hungary.As you can see, it's pretty generic advice...'be responsible, take care of yourself and don't do anything stupid.'
-
# We advise you to be alert to your own security in Hungary.
# Exercise common sense and look out for suspicious behaviour, as you would in Australia.
# You should avoid protests and demonstrations as they may turn violent.
# Pandemic (H1N1) 2009 has spread throughout the world. The World Health Organization (WHO) provides useful information for individuals and travellers on its website. For further information and advice to Australians, including on possible quarantine measures overseas, see our travel bulletin on Pandemic (H1N1) 2009.

I told you - quite clearly - that there was no point whatsoever in engaging in a lengthy rant.

Where did you learn that merely copying and pasting large chunks of text, you happen to find elsewhere, constitute proving your point?

I asked you - very simply - to prove that Islam was a race rather than a religion.
You have not done so.

And you cannot do so.

Because it is not a race. Therefore you cannot be a racist if your are a critic of Islam.

The phobia in Islamophobia means "fear," as in claustrophobia or arachnophobia. This is a thoroughly dishonest word used to equate any legitimate criticism of "the religion of peace" with some sort of hate speech. But crucially the views of myself about Islam are not based in fear of them, or ignorance of them, but in knowledge. Knowledge of this religion, what it represents, and the danger it presents to Europe.

Allow Pat Condell,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9dXGJ2rYdA
or Geert Wilders,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GanFV4b1wvk
to explain.

You said: "I did not call 'bob' a racist I just asked..." Again you are being thoroughly dishonest. Implying that I was, was precisely

Where did you learn that merely copying and pasting large chunks of text, you happen to find elsewhere, constitute proving your point?
I asked you - very simply - to prove that Islam was a race rather than a religion.
You have not done so.
And you cannot do so.
Because it is not a race. Therefore you cannot be a racist if your are a critic of Islam.
...
You said: "I did not call 'bob' a racist I just asked..." Again you are being thoroughly dishonest. Implying that I was, was precisely what you did
bobscountrybunker at March 10, 2010 2:32 AM
----
Maybe you should then prove how you being "a critic of Islam" does not render you the epithet of being a 'racist' in people's minds?
Similar to that most sane people will regard 'elle/sophie/tunde' and Law and 'mark/big jim' as 'racists' when the 2-3 of them are spewing out their very obvious hatred against Jews?
Or are they also just being "critics of Judaism"?
-
Instead of copying some well-known definitions, you paste a link to videos and that
"constitute proving your point?"
Maybe we have an other set of rules for our 'bob's of the world?
-
Anyway a guy like Wilders is hardly to be regarded as a "critic of Islam" in doing statements like:
"Islamism and democracy are incompatible"
"The more Islamism we have, the more freedom we will lose"
.
Wilders use the term "Islamism" which is not the same as "Islam" (word games?), but Wilders have called for an end to immigration to Europe from Islamic countries

I know it's no loss to anyone here, but I think I
will spend my time and money in places where I'm
made to feel more welcome.
Bystander at March 9, 2010 12:03 AM

First elcome statement from Bystander. Just imagine if every one of your people felt the same way and left Hungary. Hungary might have a chance for a szebb jövőt.
I wonder if Biden and Co. would feel bad if you got so angry at America that you all left America also.

@Big Jim: Since you're another one phoning in from abroad, what would you know about life here anyway?

Actually, when I asked about Jobbik or the MG, most people visibly winced in discomfort of having to explain.’
Cináed at March 9, 2010 4:41 PM

Liar. What motivates these people to make this sort of thing up? JOBBIK is the party all Hungarians who are not supporters of our execrable government of thieves speak of affectionately. And Dr Krisztina Morvai, personable, gutsy, pretty, very bright, is a national icon. You know nothing at all about Hungary or Hungarians, Cináed. You are just falling over yourself to support your kind on this blog. Why not read JOBBIK’s election manifesto? Bobs provided the link to its English translation. You could then hang your criticisms of JOBBIK on aspects of that. Or is that too much like an honest approach to argumentation for your taste?

The h-wifers and their variations on this blog think nothing of running down Hungarians in the basest of terms, or with the slimiest of porkies. Then they howl in a block that we are racists. Can’t see the irony, here?

Bobs, your patience is nearly as immense as FL’s. And it bore fruit: you helped the village idiot demonstrate that he hasn’t a clue what he is saying when he decides that you are (or is it now ‘are not’?) a racist. At this point, he does not even seem to know what he thinks a race is. But he will burble on undaunted, endlessly.

If so, I don't want to
support a people who would hate me just because of
my ethnicity. Thx.
Bystander at March 9, 2010 5:57 PM

It has nothing to do with your “ethnicity” but rather with some of your folks pulling out the fingernails of their folks. Hungarians are funny that way…
Do you think for one minute, you bigoted racist Jew that Hungarians would care who is a Jew and who is not a Jew if Hungarians did not experience the Kun and Rakosi blood baths?
You and others such as you are using “ethnicity” to hide behind your actions. Nobody cares if you have a big nose; it is what some of your folks did to Hungarians. We are talking about sadistic tortures, death camps under the Communist era and ruthless and criminal exploitation of Hungary and Hungarians after gengszterváltás. Take away these and your folks are no different from other folks.
It is so convenient to whine about “ethnicity” and other junk when the reality is that people, all people are judged by their actions.
How about those 1,600 new apartments in East Jerusalem? Do you honestly think that the Palestinians hate you for your ethnicity? Get real bozo, they are the same ethnicity and they hate you because you keep murdering them and stealing their homes from them. Stop murdering them and stop stealing from them and you can be friends. They want to have a life just as your people do.
Do you want to see, what HATE is? Look at the charred body of a Palestinian child burned to death by one of your white phosphorus bombs.
Look into a mirror all you HATERS before you dare accuse the Hungarians.

At this point, he does not even seem to know what he thinks a race is
Elle at March 10, 2010 11:48 AM
---
But please educate us on the 'Jewish Race'
How do I become a member there?

But please educate us on the 'Jewish Race'
How do I become a member there?
Viking at March 10, 2010 11:53 AM

The last thing we need is a Jewish comedian...

@BJ - "the reality is that people, all people are judged by their actions"
So, I'm just curious why you judge Bystander based on what someone else did?

Yes, all very "fascinating" as always Viking, and your almost retarded (droped on your head as a child?) comments remain as amusing as ever...

But we are still ALL waiting for you to show how Islam is a race.

@Bobthe Buggerin'Idiot:

Viking never said anything like this - so stop your foaming at the mouth and crawl back into your hole ...

This is not a Jobbik site, even though your friends seem to think so ...

Try to read again Jobbik's English statement - it's the most loonie right wing paper I've seen after "....." (I'm not going to tell you)

@wolfitheauthoroftediousadhominems

This is precisely what he did. And if he cannot prove it, he should admit he is wrong.

And I fail to see what it has to do with you. But it's wonderful to see what a fulminating panic you all come out in (he says wiping the "foam" away from his mouth) when the nonsense you all come here to peddle is pointed out to you.

Elle: you can call me a liar if you want...trouble is, I'm not lying. By the way, while there is all this talk of how people should apologise for making statements that turn out to be wrong, that's now two from you in this thread alone.

@wolfisureashelldoesn'tlikediscussingthefacts
"Try to read again Jobbik's English statement - it's the most loonie right wing paper I've seen after "....." (I'm not going to tell you)"
-----
By English statement you mean their English-language manifesto? Oh. Ok. Here it is for everyone to see.
http://jobbik.com/temp/Jobbik-RADICALCHANGE2010.pdf

Please identify anything loonie [sic].

Give a page number or section name.
We are waiting...
In fact, we are STILL waiting.

(But thank you for bringing things back to the subject of actual manifestos - things people ACTUALLY vote for. Or I suppose you would have us vote for the non-existent Fidesz manifesto?? Or possibly, as a foreigner, you would rather us Hungarians did not vote at all, and stopped thinking of this as our own country, whose fate it is our own to decide?)

Another example:

"We wish to elevate the Hungarian question, within the EU, to that of a matter touched on daily in political discussions;"

So every day there has to be a mention of "Trianon" or what ?

I can just imagine the faces of the other countries' politicians ...

or this:

"the rebuilding of our national capacity for self-defence in line with Hungary’s strategic circumstances, making our land and air forces capable of dealing with the realities of a potential defensive engagement,"

and

"Our homeland, situated in the very centre of Europe and at a strategic point of impact, requires a fighting force consisting of a standing army 40,000 strong, increasable as necessary by a reserve fighting force of 10,000; in addition to which, the protection of the country’s hinterland necessitates the creation of a territorial defence entity some 20,000 – 22,000 persons strong."

So Jobbik thinks they have to defend Hungary's hinterland (nice German word by the way ...)
- from whom ???

@wolfisureashelldoesn'tlikediscussingthefacts
(…)
bobscountrybunker at March 10, 2010 2:44 PM

Sorry Bob but trying to reason with this imbecile is useless. It is best to let them spew their unreasoned hate because they will make more people turn to Jobbik than against Jobbik. A recent survey shows that the majority of Hungarians do not consider Jobbik and extremist party and believe that Jobbik in the Hungarian Parliament would be a good thing.
Maybe we can thank the insane Jobbik hatred of wolfisureashelldoesn'tlikediscussingthefacts and his ilk for this favorable opinion :-)

@Big Jim
You do not understand. The man has now demonstrated for all to see that he thinks the married family is an institution no better than something from the "middle ages" and should have the same status as two men wo just happen to like bumming each other.

Time and time again now, he copies and pastes perfectly reasonable policy suggest6ions from Jobbik as if to say: "Ah Ha! Look!! They are all insane."

But the Hungarian reader goes, "Hmm. Actually that's rather sensible. I think I'll read more."

The vacuous, and completely empty nature of his "criticisms" is the best advert Jobbik's policies can have!

"We wish to elevate the Hungarian question, within the EU, to that of a matter touched on daily in political discussions;"
So every day there has to be a mention of "Trianon" or what ?
-----
Chance would be a fine thing! But NO Magyars have to be fined thousands of Euros for using their own language in the countries of their birth, and you are obsessed with giving the Roma carte blanche and having homosexuals receive equal status to the married??!!??

There's no f*ck up as plainly crazy as a liberl f*ck up. Dude, tablets, ECT, therapy, did none of them work?

This is precisely what he did. And if he cannot prove it, he should admit he is wrong.
bobscountrybunker at March 10, 2010 2:08 PM
----
Please supply the quote when I do whatever you claim that I did
In the meantime you can explain how the Jews are a 'race'

Stop playing games Viking. Are you now NOT claiming that Islam is a race?

Bob is astonished:

"having homosexuals receive equal status to the married??!!??"

Why don't you ask justasking about the situation in Canada ?

And BTW those parts of the jobo "defending the Hungarian hinterland" etc - what do you think of those ?

Greetings from an unashamed liberal ...

@incontinentpuppy
WTF do I care what happens in Canada or not?

Sociological studies, all point to children from married families being more balanced individuals.
Criminological studies, all point to children from married families being siginificantly less involved in crime.
Educational studies, all point to children from married families achieveing higher grades.

These are the positive benefits to society that the institution of marriage brings. Without it children are more likely to have mental health problems, general health issues, addcition, criminal behaviour, unemployment, and poor educational performance.

All of the above are drains on the state resources. And children who are not brought up in married households are, by definition, much more likely to be solely drains on the state.
The benefits to the public purse and to the welfare of society at large, of the insitutution of marriage, are positively immense.
Which is why it deserves the exclusivity of its special legal status.

What similar benefits are brought to society by two men who bum each other, wanting to have a civil partnership? Please answert this very simple question.

The vacuous, and completely empty nature of his "criticisms" is the best advert Jobbik's policies can have!
bobscountrybunker at March 10, 2010 3:21 PM

Actually, contrary to my earlier comment, whatever takes place on this list has no bearing on Hungarian politics. It will not result in a single vote for or against Jobbik. The only two Hungarians voters, Elle and Law are not going to be influenced by the village idiots. What difference does that make what all the others think? Someone of your super ability to write English and Hungarian could be a lot more useful helping Jobbik with their communiqués.
On some other lists, I read compositions from people who lived 50+ years in America, England and Australia and they write impeccable Hungarian and wonder about their gift. How do they do it? On the down side, one meet people who may have been away from Hungary a year or two and speak broken Hungarian yet they did not learn to speak English. They remind me of our village idiots.

Sociological studies, all point to children from married families being more balanced individuals.
Criminological studies, all point to children from married families being siginificantly less involved in crime.
Educational studies, all point to children from married families achieveing higher grades
bobscountrybunker at March 10, 2010 4:31 PM
---
And those you read today?
And *all* these studies (obviously a lot) used the term "married families", not "functional families"?
They explicitly describes how alcoholic parents, just by being married, created successful children?
If the same parents had not been married, the children would have been unsuccessful
Yes, that is also my opinion, grown up with a single mother and a father I was presented for when I was 17 years
I am a total failure, then my parents did not marry (my father was already married, shit happens)

@Viking
Ah! When in doubt, substitute the anecodtal, for the scientifically rigorous.
Once again, we tremble in awe of your almighty intellect...

@ Big Jim

Wonders never cease - I agree with you

"Actually, contrary to my earlier comment, whatever takes place on this list has no bearing on Hungarian politics. It will not result in a single vote for or against Jobbik"

Actually I posted the same thoughts several times.

So the point of your posting is.....? please explain your reasons or pick from multiple choice

a. enjoy typing
b. enjoy reading your own words
c. you find it relieves tension and stress
d. no cost involved
e. you were a school bully and your realized your talents can be used on this website
f. all of the above

c.

'... apologise for making statements that turn out to be wrong, that's now two from you in this thread alone.'
Cináed at March 10, 2010 2:35 PM

What are the two statements I made that turned out to be wrong? Kindly refer them to me. Or is that too much like honesty ... suffice it that you have made the allegation?

I repeat my earlier charge: You do not know Hungary, and you do not know Hungarians. Pretending that you do, you are lying. I confront you with this only because you are lying to smear Hungarians.

@Big Jim
"Someone of your super ability to write English and Hungarian could be a lot more useful helping Jobbik with their communiqués."
-----
Sadly, as I went to great pains to explain a very long time ago: this is impossible.
My commitments as an academic and a journalist require that I have at least the semblance of political independence. This does not mean I cannot hold partisan opinions - it should be clear that I do - but actually working for a party, whichever party, is something quite different.
Were I to be discovered doing so, even pro bono, it would jeopardize my position professionally in a way I cannot allow.

"My commitments as an academic and a journalist
require..."
"jeopardize my position professionally..."
------
ho ho ho ho ho ho i love this website...
should be .com for comedy

Bobs, I was on the point of endorsing Big Jim's suggestion when your post came in. But can your situation not be resolved with a non de guerre?

So the point of your posting is.....? please explain your reasons or pick from multiple choice

a. enjoy typing
b. enjoy reading your own words
c. you find it relieves tension and stress
d. no cost involved
e. you were a school bully and your realized your talents can be used on this website
f. all of the above

c.

olga
--------------
Qustions, questions, questions...
I will explain everything to you when you and Mark come to our Budapest meeting :-)

Bob, you could do it pro-bono and no one could accuse you of conflict of interest

@Anonymous
Shame it's actually .hu
Annoying things aren't they? Details.

@Big Jim & Elle
Not quite how it works guys, but I am flattered nonetheless.

@Bobs- With your pro-jus sanguine views, would I be right in assuming you would not object to bystander (whose origins is Hungarian, however distant they may be) having the same rights & privileges to settle in Hungary as Ricsi or Mark? Or would his jewishness or 'bloodline' be factored into the answer? I'm just curious.

Also, as a non-European, who speaks 4 European languages (not yours) passably, and who has the ability to adapt, integrate socially & contribute economically in many countries here, your objections to me settling in Europe, if not based on race, would be............. Spare me the sarcasm this opportunity affords you. I'm not planning on staying here, and neither am I Muslim (so previous rants dont apply), but I really would like to know your objections. Many countries here have jus-soli &/or refugee/immigration laws which may allow me to remain in Europe. Until those laws are democratically changed, they remain in force whether you like them or not.
I think both your answers would give us some insight into whether your views are at least, 'racial'.

This is Hungary. Bloodlines do not feature in immigration policy here. CG must be thinking of racist Israel.

This is Hungary. Bloodlines do not feature in immigration policy here. CG must be thinking of racist Israel.
Elle at March 10, 2010 8:26 PM
---
But how can Israel be "racist" if Jews are not a race?
How do I become a member of the Jewish race?

Race, Viking, has to do with bloodline. The Jewish configuration of Jewishness is that a person must be born of a Jewish mother to be considered a Jew by Jews. Capish?

Race, Viking, has to do with bloodline. The Jewish configuration of Jewishness is that a person must be born of a Jewish mother to be considered a Jew by Jews. Capish?
Elle at March 10, 2010 8:39 PM
----
Oh, then all these links on the web on "HowTo Convert To Judaism" must be wrong then?
Like
-
http://www.beingjewish.com/conversion/becomingjewish.html
-
"Please note that if your mother was Jewish before you were born, whether observant or not, then by Jewish Law you are also Jewish, and you do not need to convert. Please contact an Orthodox Rabbi for guidance"
"When a Gentile wants to become Jewish, the Rabbis are required to try to dissuade him. Only the very sincere make it through the entire process. And the process can take a long while. It may not turn out to be easy"
-
Well, it does not seem so easy to become a Jew, but some of them went the other way, like Paul (or Saul):
Prior to his belief in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah of Israel, Paul was a Pharisee who "violently persecuted" the followers of Jesus. Says Paul:
"You have heard, no doubt, of my earlier life in Judaism. I was violently persecuting the church of God and was trying to destroy it. I advanced in Judaism beyond many among my people of the same age, for I was far more zealous for the traditions of my ancestors"
(Paul's Letter to the Galatians 1:13-14)
-
So, are you really, really sure you do not have any Jewish 'blood' in you, then all Christians were Jews originally you know...
-
Now I convert to Chinese

And your point is? (Yawn. Never mind.)

@Viking - maybe if you checked with Elle's geneticists from the Univ. of 3rd Reich, you might find you already have the 'Chinese' gene.

And your point is? (Yawn. Never mind.)
Elle at March 10, 2010 11:07 PM
---
That you could not prove that Jews are a race...
Remember the fact that you are considered a Muslim if your father was a Muslim, or not?
If we check:
-
http://www.half-jewish.net/whoisajew.html
-
Written by the people who have both Jewish and Muslim parents, the story gets a bit complex:
"Many of the stories in the Tanach appear to suggest that a person in Biblical Israel was considered to be a Jew if that person had a Jewish mother or a Jewish father, and was raised as a Jew"
"On the other hand, some hereditary honors, such as rank as a Cohen or a Levite, passed to offspring only through a Jewish father, leading some historians to believe that the Biblical Jews actually followed only patrilineal descent"
"At some point in the Talmudic era, the Jewish rabbinic elite apparently changed the Jewish descent rules to a matrilineal rule -- only the child of a Jewish mother, or the grandchild of a maternal Jewish grandmother, etc., would be considered to be a 'real' Jew", so they changed the concept of 'race' during the last some 1000 of years
.
But you are much more clever than a bunch of old Jews, so you know who is a Jew and not, right?
Like, 'bob' knows who is a Muslim, and 'Pav' knows who is a Roma?
.
Are we not all grateful to have found this spot on the Internet where all these important questions can be answered by such experts?
.
Is Orban Viktor Roma or not?
Does not Gábor Zázrivecz look Jewish?

‘That you could not prove that Jews are a race...’

Viking, I do not think Jews are a race. I would therefore not try to prove that they are. I pointed out to you and CG that bloodline does not feature in Hungarian immigration policy. I suggested also that CG must be thinking of racist Israel when he implies that it does, for bloodline is the essential Israeli immigration policy. So, again: I do not think that Jews are a race. I do think that Israel has a racist settlement policy.(No need to cut-and-paste anything else, now. The point at issue is quite simple.)

I do not think that Jews are a race. I do think that Israel has a racist settlement policy
Elle at March 11, 2010 12:35 AM
---
Yes, it would be nice if things were easy, but they are not, because how can you be correct calling Israel for being racists (as in having "a racist settlement policy"), when 'bob' cannot understand that Muslims are a 'race', then you are a Muslim if your father is a Muslim, as you are a Jew if your Mother is a Jew?
Does not a Father have a 'bloodline'?
Or is the 'bloodline' only for Jews?
Also, if you convert, even in a non-orthodox way, to Judaism *before* you settle in Israel, the Jewish State of Israel will accept you as a Jew, so the 'bloodline' is not that so important
You still have a chance, if you now had forgotten that your Great Grand Mother was Jewish
.
Somewhere is there a discrepancy, and it is between you and 'bob'

Do you realise that you endorsed my point about the difference between Hungarian and Israeli immigration policy with your ‘[a]lso, if you convert, even in a non-orthodox way, to Judaism *before* you settle in Israel, the Jewish State of Israel will accept you as a Jew’? So Israel makes one 9very difficult to execute) exception to its ‘bloodline’ immigration policy.

And, for goodness sakes, Bobs bent over backwards to try to explain to you that ‘Muslim’ does not refer to a race. And still you do not understand. Let me try again: You are not a Muslim because your father/mother/great aunt/the milkman is a Muslim. You are a Muslim because you adhere to the faith called Islam.

You are not a Muslim because your father/mother/great aunt/the milkman is a Muslim.
Elle at March 11, 2010 1:16 AM
Yes you are, if your father/mother is Muslim, according to Islamic 'configuration' (if I may borrow your usage of the word).
Does jobbik immigration policy also include Jewish Hungarians in the US?

No: if your father is a Muslim, you are still an apostate (you can borrow this usage, too) if you do not adhere to the Muslim faith, Islam.

'Does jobbik immigration policy also include Jewish Hungarians in the US?'

You seem to be concerned that it does not. I wonder what makes you do that? My guess is that you do not think them worthy of inclusion. But as far as I can see, JOBBIK simply refers to 'Hungarians in the US'.

Thanks, I will use it. In Islam, an "apostate" is a Muslim, who doesn't adhere or converts.
Your guess is wrong again (what else is new?). Jobbik can attract baboons as far as I'm concerned (like they haven't already).

A stunningly erudite remark, CG, and in keeping with the intellect you typically demonstrate.

You're welcome, #80!

In Islam, an "apostate" is a Muslim, who doesn't adhere or converts.
Curious George at March 11, 2010 1:05 PM
----
Dictonary dot com:
[Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin apostata, from Greek apostatēs, from aphistanai, to revolt; see apostasy.]
"One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause"
-
So a 'Secular Jew' would then also be a 'apostate of Judaism'
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/
.
"Who we are:
We are ex-Muslims. Some of us were born and raised in Islam and some of us had converted to Islam at some moment in our lives"
.
"What is our goal?
...
we are not against Muslims who are our own kin and relatives
...
We are against Islam and not the Muslims
...
We strive for freedom of beliefs, for equality of gender and for oneness of mankind"
-
Obviously I am not the only one in the world who can see Muslims as not a biological race, but as an ethnic group hold together with a common kernel of culture (much based on Islam of course, as Europe is based much on Judaism/Christianity) and they actually do if we look to the classic 'Arabia', share a common language (even if it can sound a bit different in different parts)
-
So, how would it be wrong to call a person who is open anti-Muslim for 'racist'?
It is rather accepted that people that express 'anti-Semitism' (in the sense of being anti-Jewishness/Judaism' are 'racists'
But for Muslims we should have other standards, 'bob'?

I have wondered before if you are faking stupidity or demonstrating a genuine instanc of it. Either way, you are well advised to try to read and understand what is said. Do not hit your burble button until you have had a rigorous go at that.

"Obviously I am not the only one in the world who can see Muslims as not a biological race, but as an ethnic group hold together with a common kernel of culture."
Viking at March 11, 2010 1:58 PM
-----
Please point towards the part of your quotation that justifies this assertion? Because it isn't there.

There is no racial, ethnic, or nationalistic component to being a Muslim. Because you do not have to be part of any race, ethnicity, or nationality to gain admission.

The only condition of gaining admission to Islam, is to reapeat the Shahadah, and mean it, preferably in front of a witness. From then on, not to be an apostate, you must follow the Sharia law and submit to Islam.

The first thing a child born into a Muslim family is supposed to hear is the Shahadah (recited into their right ear); and when they are able to do so they are expected to recite it themselves. Thus they are Muslim.

Try and get it through your skull, race and ethnicity play NO PART WHATSOEVER. This is why someone like Rudolf Carl von Slatin was able to convert in a flash, on order to gain the support of his Sudanese troops. He later recanted.

Again, race, ethnicity all these things mean nothing to being a Muslim. But using self-conscious Western (or rather Kuffar / unbeliever) conerns about racism, to forward the cause of Islam most definitely is. cont'd...

It is most definitely allowed, and promoted, to pretend that Islam is racial, in order to use the concerns of Western societies about not being racist: in order to promote and further the cause of Islam. This is known as "Taqiyya", deliberately lying in order to promote Islam while looking like you are not doing so.

Trust me Viking et al, you have no idea what you are dealing with. And your well-intentioned and misguided liberal moralising about racism and minority rights is being deliberately used against you in order to eventually bring about the donwfall of the society you would so desparately promote.

From the website Islam Watch: Islam Under Scrutiny by Ex-Muslims
Understanding Taqiyya ― Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah

The word "Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing, precaution, guarding.” It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralising any criticism of Islam or Muslims.

Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur'an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a “religion of peace”. A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his heart.

Islam is not difficult to understand, and it is not cmplex. It really is very simple and straightforward. There was an excellent short explanation and guide to Islam by a French anti-Jihadi site Vérité, valeurs & Démocratie, I will try and track down a translation. Or make one and post it here. And I can only hope someone will be bothered to read it. Because that's going to have to be the limit of my fun and games here today.

Hey Curious George

If you disagree just once more with Elle, you too can become a Village Idiot.

You came to Hungary to teach, and low and behold you are getting a free education of your own. Hope you are appropriately thankful.

BTW, since the Hungarian election is so closely tied to Muslim issues, "Son Of Hamas" is book that's getting a lot of recent media attention- Mosab Hassan Yousef grew up as the son of a respected Hamas founder. He was a double agent for Israel and Palestine with the agenda to save lives.

He was interviewed on CNN last night and aid he is not pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, he is pro "not killing people."

" My message to them (HAMAS)is, first of all, to open their minds. They were born to Muslim families — this is how they got Islam and this is just like ... any other religion, like growing up (in) a Christian family, or growing up (in) a Jewish family."

"As he began to read the New Testament for the first time, he was deeply touched by the Sermon on the Mount and "thunderstruck" by Jesus' admonition to "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your father in heaven."

Hopefully Elle will contact him and set him straight about the correct definition of Jews, Muslims, Christians etc

V,V & D Translation:

Islam explained for those who do not read the Koran

1/3

Islam is not as complicated as they would have you believe.

You have the Koran: a hodgepodge written by unknown men under poorly understood conditions. But this doesn’t matter, because even Muslims don’t really care about the Koran’s historical origins. Only its current contents have importance in their eyes.

You have a prophet: Muhammad, whose deeds are known thanks to the following texts:

* The Sira, which is a biography of Muhammad
* The Hadith, which are records of oral testimony about the acts and words of Muhammad

From these basics, the Islamic doctrine is simple:

* To establish an Islamic society arranged by the rules contained in the Koran and in the words of the Prophet, which are grouped under the name “Sharia”.
* To faithfully imitate the conduct of Muhammad, who is the archetype of the perfect Muslim.

That’s all you need to understand Islam.

What is a “Muslim”?

A Muslim (“one who submits” in Arabic) is one who accepts and seeks to conform to the rules of Sharia and tries to imitate Muhammad. If you do not fall into this category, you are a “kafir”.

Me and my tags! Whoops!! Start again...
V,V & D Translation:

Islam explained for those who do not read the Koran

1/3

Islam is not as complicated as they would have you believe.

You have the Koran: a hodgepodge written by unknown men under poorly understood conditions. But this doesn’t matter, because even Muslims don’t really care about the Koran’s historical origins. Only its current contents have importance in their eyes.

You have a prophet: Muhammad, whose deeds are known thanks to the following texts:

* The Sira, which is a biography of Muhammad
* The Hadith, which are records of oral testimony about the acts and words of Muhammad

From these basics, the Islamic doctrine is simple:

* To establish an Islamic society arranged by the rules contained in the Koran and in the words of the Prophet, which are grouped under the name “Sharia”.
* To faithfully imitate the conduct of Muhammad, who is the archetype of the perfect Muslim.

That’s all you need to understand Islam.

What is a “Muslim”?

A Muslim (“one who submits” in Arabic) is one who accepts and seeks to conform to the rules of Sharia and tries to imitate Muhammad. If you do not fall into this category, you are a “kafir”.

Islam explained for those who do not read the Koran

2/3

What is a “kafir”?

A kafir is not equal to a Muslim. He is an inferior, despicable and impure, cursed by the god of the Muslims and destined to burn in hell.

What does it mean to imitate Muhammad?

To eradicate the kuffar (plural of kafir), to destroy their cultures and their societies in order to erect in their place an Islamic society ruled by Sharia.

The example of Muhammad shows that all methods are possible: proselytism, threats, rape, torture, pillage, trickery, and/or murder. No tactic is better than another and all are fair game depending on conditions. The goal is the same: the extermination of the kuffar.

Islam is thus a process working towards the elimination of the kuffar and the destruction of their societies in order to install a universal Islamic civilization.

The ostensible complexity of Islam is simply due to the different interpretations as to how to achieve this goal, but they all involve the extermination of the kuffar at some stage…without exception.

That’s it. As you can see, Islam is not complicated at all.

If you want to know the details, you can always read the Koran, the Sira, and the Hadith.

“But that cannot be the whole story,” you will object. “My Muslim friends and neighbours are perfectly respectable and pleasant!”

Islam explained for those who do not read the Koran

3/3

Indeed, outside the context of Islam, they are human beings like anyone else, neither better nor worse. But this does not change the fact that when they act as Muslims, even in a courteous and friendly manner, they are participating in a system that is working toward your extermination and the destruction of your society.

People are not the problem here; the source of the problem is the Islamic ideology that demands the extermination of kuffar like you.

Finally, there is only one really useful thing to know about Islam:

A kafir can expect nothing good from Islam, absolutely nothing.

Wow!

Spongebob is metamorphosing into perverse pavian, filling this site with pages of what ? copied from where ? intended for whom ?

@incontinentpuppy
Try and follow the discussion. All the answers to your questions are contained in the exchanges above. If you can't be bothered to read them, what on earth makes you think people will be bothered to read yours?

The only thing in Islam that ever interested me were the Sufis.

Wow! Spongebob is metamorphosing into perverse pavian, filling this site with pages of what ? copied from where ? intended for whom ?
wolfi at March 11, 2010 3:19 PM

Not very sure, but I think all that was to prove that Bob is not a racist.
@Olga - Oooh. Do I get a H-wife too?
Actually, I originally came here to learn about Hungary (& the other countries transformation) so that we could use those lessons in my country. Guess we're learning those lessons now from Pav, Bob, & Elle. We're gonna be well prepared on to deal with the UN, EU & the IMF, our neighbor countries, and our pesky minorities. Oh, wait, I'm a minority!

try to read and understand what is said
Elle at March 11, 2010 2:16 PM
---
I should revise my earlier statement on the Israeli State and bloodlines:
The Jewish State of Israel will accept any Jew, converted or not, as citizen
To be considered a Jew, to get the 'Jew' written on your ID-card, you need to be approved by the Rabbinate
The Rabbinate will most likely follow the Maternal bloodline, so that is more a question of becoming a member of the club or not, not related to the question of becoming a citizen
===
I do not think that Jews are a race. I do think that Israel has a racist settlement policy
Elle at March 11, 2010 12:35 AM
---
Hence we come back to the old question:
* So, Israel is being 'racist' by allowing only Jews, which is not a race, but being anti-Muslim is not being 'racist' then Muslim is no race?
-
2 different set of standards on how defining who is a 'racist'?

@Curious George
"and our pesky minorities. Oh, wait, I'm a minority!"
Curious George at March 11, 2010 4:02 PM
-----
May I be permitted to ask, when rhetoric does not agree with the facts: what do you believe, the rhetoric, or the facts?

Szlovák újság: a Jobbiknak van a legjobb nemzetiségi programja
Quote
A Jobbiknak van a legjobb kisebbségpolitikai programja - írja a Ludové Noviny online változata. A hazai szlovákság újságja körkérdést intézett a pártokhoz, s ennek alapján arra jutott: valójában a fősodratú média által sokszor kisebbségellenes indulatok szításával vádolt nemzeti párt nyújtja a legelfogadhatóbb elképzeléseket a nemzetiségek számára.
Unquote

Curious george utter utter looooser also with Vandorlo viking and Wolfi, whilst Olga the Mole giving all these helmet heads a break when they get tired of jacking one another from behind.

There is no racial, ethnic, or nationalistic component to being a Muslim. Because you do not have to be part of any race, ethnicity, or nationality to gain admission
bobscountrybunker at March 11, 2010 2:38 PM
---
Just to simplify things:
* How does this differ from becoming a Christian or a Jew?
.
Please feel free to answer shortly or lengthy, but at least try to *answer*
Sometime must be the first, so we try an easy one

The only thing in Islam that ever interested me were the Sufis.
Farkas László at March 11, 2010 4:01 PM
---
Interesting, because if I ever would like to start study Islam, I would start with the Sufis
They seem to stand out in a positive way

@Farkas László & Viking
The irony being, of course, that there is much disagreement within Islam over whether Sufism is even Islamic.
Is Sufism Islamic?
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545786

@Law/Strikeforce - good to have you back.

@strikeforce:

"when they get tired of jacking one another from behind"

You're not the first jobo here who likes to use this kind of "language" - what would a psychologist make of this ?

Running out of arguments ?

You remind me of "Donizelli"who would spew those vulgarities day and night, strange ...

Dear Viking,

They are an interesting subject to me, because they were a subculture of mysticism and personal enlightment, something you find in every major faith, especially the eastern ones. Mystics tend to be universalist, and less fixated with cult chauvinism, something common to fundamentalists. That does not mean they did not have exacting standards for the joining of their communities, or in rigorous discipline.

Sufis spent centuries paying outer lip service to orthodoxy and maintaining a low outer profile. They had to be secretive, because the majoritarian culture often had little tolerance for personal discovery in matters of spirituality. (Being Hungarian and remembering the Communist regime, which emphasised rigid political and ideological orthodoxy and conformity, I can partially relate to that!)

If you would like to look into this subject further, you could look up 12th century Persian mystic/saint Jallaludin Rumi. His sayings were collected into a work called the "Mathnawi". Rumi introduced a centering meditation exercise that involved twirling, and his followers were called "dervishes".

Sufis and dervishes were often persecuted. The orthodox often did not consider them "true Muslims". Just remember, they said it, not me!

I might also add that Hassidism and it's mystics are the only thing in Judaism that is of the least interest to me as a student of religion.

Dear Bob!

You are so "quick on the trigger"! I didn't see your post in response to Sufism until after I posted my response to Viking. Good work.

May I be permitted to ask, when rhetoric does not agree with the facts: what do you believe, the rhetoric, or the facts?
bobscountrybunker at March 11, 2010 4:17 PM
Depends on who's providing either, and on understanding their motives for doing so.

@Farkas László & Viking
The irony being, of course, that there is much disagreement within Islam over whether Sufism is even Islamic.
bobscountrybunker at March 11, 2010 4:38 PM
---
"According to Idries Shah, the Sufi philosophy is universal in nature, its roots predating the arising of Islam and the other modern-day religions; likewise, some Muslims consider Sufism outside the sphere of Islam, although generally scholars of Islam contend that it is simply the name for the inner or esoteric dimension of Islam"
-
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Sufism
-
Look at any religion, even your beloved Christianity, there is not a common congregation, there are several and they (sometimes) fight like cats and dogs
For basically any congregation you will find another congregation claiming that the others are not the Real McCoy
Reminds about politics...
.
And your point was?

Yes, for hundreds of years christians liked to kill other christians in the most horrible ways - makes them really nice people.

Now the catholic priests (doesn't matter if it's the US or Ireland or Germany or ...) just like to bugger children - which must make them friends of the jobos here ...

You should read the book by Dawkins: The god delusion - I've seen that it's available in Hungarian, a bookshop in Keszthely has it prominently displayed - good people!

Hello again Viking,

The subject of Sufism continues to be a very controversial subject within Islam, with opinions sharply divided as to it's validity

Religion and politics do share an important similiarity, as they are both belief systems in one way or another. As a result they are vulnerable to splintering and factionalism, as well as being in conflict with competing belief systems.

Mysticism is that tendency in religion which attempts to transcend belief systems and go to inner knowing. As such, I see it as a rebellion against belief based othodoxy.

Dear Farkas Laszlo
Agree Sufism is very interesting philosophy and believe the teachings were directed at trying to raise to Muslim belief system to a higher level however as always the power elite have infiltrated Bahai movement and it’s used as a political tool to try and introduce the new oneness religion. I actually attended their gatherings because the philosophy was very interesting just like the Christian Gnostics, however the fallen ones are renowned for infiltrating any group that begins to spread truths.
The point where I become put off is the way people worshipped Bahá'u'lláh as the modern Messenger of God with the highest level of enlightenment and Jesus teachings are out dated, another interesting observation they say they are neutral in politics even though they are very well represented in groups like Club of Rome, UNICEF and United Nations and they claim to be the modern religion which is being marketed for the global oneness religion, it’s all written in the booklets received as they see the potential in the person, in the Middle East the only people supporting them is Israel and all the western elite societies.

Dear Law,

To be honest, I wasn't quite thinking of Bahai when I mentioned the sufis, although I am familiar with some of their writings and history (they even have books and pamphlets in Hungarian.) Although their followers consider their faith the true one and their founder to be another Jesus, they accept the validity of almost all faiths. In the Middle East, especially in Iran, believing that can have political repercussions; perhaps that is why Israel might be involved in it's promotion as you note. As Bahai does not consider itself a specifically Muslim faith and has it's own "holy book", the cult has fared badly in it's land of origin under the "Islamic Revolution".

The issue of mysticism or belief in it is made difficult, when one is asked to accept the claims of a founder or his followers that he has "found it". Often extravagant claims are made for that individual, that he either has found God or even is God! Believer beware!

1st: On ethnic Judaism
1A.
@Viking
Judaism and Christianity were never the subject of our discussion. As you well know. Which originated in your question of what, other than racist, my views on Islam could ever possibly be called.

I stated quite clearly that Islam was not, and could not ever be, considered as a race or ethnicity. And therefore your characterisation was grade-A horse manure.

From this point on you continued to dodge, in your characteristic way, between, changing the goalposts, implying that it was a race, and saying "well that's not what I actually meant at all."

The simplest way of explaining is that to be a considered a Christian by other Christians, or a Muslim by other Muslims, requires that you adhere to certain principles. Judaism by and large, does not.

You must be born of a Jewish mother to be considered a Jew. This indicates your membership of one of the seven tribes of Israel (a wonderful word which in its original meaning means "wrestles with God”, a very apposite description of the Jewish relationship with the creator). Israel was the name given to the Biblical Jacob who had seven sons, hence seven tribes.

I say by and large, because there is a very rare possibility in the minority reformed tradition of Judaism to allow conversion. But this is a very lengthy process of study and examination. It mostly involves gentile men marrying Jewish women, so for their children it is not an issue.

1B.
In Islam it's just reciting the Shahada, and snap, you’re in.

The difference between being born a Jew (to a Jewish mother) and leading a Jewish (religiously observant) life means that you can be a Jew and still not in the least bit be religious. There is no such thing in Islam as a non-religious Muslim. You are at best, just not a Muslim, or at worst, an apostate from Islam. Which means that you are to be beheaded.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Preferred_form_of_execution

This ethnic component of Judaism means you can be a Jew (ethnically) while having no religious observance whatsoever, or be a Jew while also having religious qualities. However being a solely religious (therefore non-ethnic) Jew, is to all intents and purposes so rare, as to be impossible.

2nd: On Islam and Sufism
2A.
@Viking and Farkas Laszló
Viking you would do well to read the actual links I send you, rather than just reject their implications. What do you consider to be a more accurate source of information on Islam? A forum for Islamic scholars and Muslims (islamonline.net), or ask.com? You also say,

“Look at any religion, even your beloved Christianity, there is not a common congregation, there are several and they (sometimes) fight like cats and dogs”

Again you are confused. But I have given you all the information you need not to be so confused. All you must do is simply read it. From my post above:
http://www.politics.hu/20100304/march-15th-madness-avoided-as-parties-distance-themselves-from-each-other#c269
“Islam is thus a process working towards the elimination of the kuffar and the destruction of their societies in order to install a universal Islamic civilization.
The ostensible complexity of Islam is simply due to the different interpretations as to how to achieve this goal, but they all involve the extermination of the kuffar at some stage…without exception.”

2B.
And again from my post above:
http://www.politics.hu/20100304/march-15th-madness-avoided-as-parties-distance-themselves-from-each-other#c268
“From these basics, the Islamic doctrine is simple:
* To establish an Islamic society arranged by the rules contained in the Koran and in the words of the Prophet, which are grouped under the name “Sharia”.
* To faithfully imitate the conduct of Muhammad, who is the archetype of the perfect Muslim.”

The Islamic scholar whose post on Sufism I linked to stated (maybe you should have read it!):
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545786
“Not everything that goes under the name of Sufism is considered Islamic… …In order to judge something as Islamic, it must be judged and weighed by the well-established criteria and standards of Shari`ah as enshrined in the Book [by which he means the Qur’an] and the Sunnah.
Thus if a certain Sufi practice or custom is opposed to the prescribed criteria of the Shari`ah as enshrined in the Qur’an and the Sunnah, it shall be judged as un-Islamic; if, however, it agrees with these criteria it shall be judged as perfectly Islamic. ”

Islam is precisely what I said it is in the brief guide that I translated. The disagreements over Sufism, are because it is just a form a asceticism that some Muslims follow. If these forms of asceticism are against the Sharia they are by definition un-Islamic.

2C.
(What you fail to understand Viking – crucially and fatally – is that there is no room for the equivocation and ambiguity that you enjoy so much, in Islam. I know your multi-culturalist soul is just SCREAMING, there IS in every form of human endeavour, therefore there MUST be in Islam too. And it is precisely this tragic mistake of misunderstanding which is leading the political leadership of Europe into such a deeply concerning crisis with this religion.)

Sufism is NOT a form of Islam. The Sharia IS Islam.

Or that is to say Islam (which means “submission”) is submission to the Sharia.

Forgive me, but before I was a scholar of comparative politics I was a scholar of comparative religion. I know what I am talking about. You do not. It is as simple as that.

There is no point continuing the discussion if you refuse to read the text I have provided to alleviate your ignorance Viking, and persist in making comments based on no more than the profundity of that ignorance.

3B.
A man who was a paedophile and a barbarian, as is made plainly, evidently and incontrovertibly clear by the Islamic texts. Muhammad entered a polygamous marriage with the 6-year old Ayisha, which he consummated – that means he fucked her – when she was 9 and he was 54.
http://www.muhammadanism.org/Hadith/Topics/Marriage.htm

And he was also conducting the kind of totalitarian anti-Semitism you are so fond of condemning, twelve centuries before your precious Hitler was born.

“Over 800 men and boys (and at least one woman) from the [Jewish] Qurayza tribe were beheaded by the prophet of Islam in a bloodbath that is of acute embarrassment to today’s Muslim apologists. It is an episode that is not only completely at odds with the idea that Islam is a peaceful religion, but also the claim that it is the heir to Christianity, since even that religion’s most dedicated critics could hardly imagine Jesus doing such a thing.”
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-qurayza.htm

So try to get this – small, but rather important – difference through your unbelievably thick skull.

When a member of the Spanish Inquisition tortured a heretic, or when a Catholic paedophile priest buggers a choir boy …
He is NOT being a good Christian.
Because he is NOT following the example of, his prophet, Jesus Christ.
As his religion, Christianity, ideally REQUIRES.

3C.
BUT (!!!) when a Muslim father requires the mutilation of his infant daughter’s genitalia…
(“In the Sunnah, Muhammad stated that circumcision was a "law for men and a preservation of honour for women." http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/islamethics/malecircumcision.shtml )
…or when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi’s face is splattered with the arterial blood spurting from the neck of Olin Eugene Armstrong as he slowly and deliberately carves his gutturally screaming head from his shoulders.
He IS being a good Muslim.
Because he IS following the example of, his prophet, Muhammad.
As his religion, Islam, ideally REQUIRES.

Are you now able to discern a substantive difference between Christianity and Islam now, wolfi, you complete and utter imbecile?

Sorry about the unclosed tags folks. Contributing today has been a distraction.
I will be happy to continue this discussion tomorrow but now have much to do.
I hope you have fun carrying on with the debate. But I beg you to start grappling with the facts, instead of your own fantasies.

You must be born of a Jewish mother to be considered a Jew
bobscountrybunker at March 11, 2010 7:10 PM
---
Not true
-
http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm
-
"First, traditional Judaism maintains that a person is a Jew if his mother is a Jew, regardless of who his father is
The liberal movements, on the other hand, consider a person to be Jewish if either of his parents was Jewish and the child was raised Jewish. Thus, if the child of a Jewish father and a Christian mother is raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Reform movement, but not according to the Orthodox movement
On the other hand, if the child of a Christian father and a Jewish mother is not raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Orthodox movement, but not according to the Reform movement"
--
No wonder they need a lot of Rabbis to sort things out...
And you can convert to Judaism, no one said it was easy, but people do it
So, in the eyes of those terrible Liberals (even Jews have them obviously) it is possible to become a Jew by your own accord, just need to find the nice Rabbi to fix the conversion
This is what some Russians have done in not so small numbers and created a future for themselves as privileged settlers (and sellers of pork meat under the counter)
-
The hardship-level of the entry to a religion can hardly be a significant political argument, whether this religion should equate to a race?
So, then being 'Jews Only' would then not equate to a 'racist' movement?

@ Bob

Re: "A Christian. To be a Christian. Is expected to follow a Christian life. Which means emulating, as much as they ca, the example of their prophet: Jesus Christ. A man, who the bible tells us: healed the sick, comforted the poor, and commanded his followers to love their neighbour as they love themselves."

Remember that when you go to your next JOBBIK meeting and remind Law of the paragraph.

BTW, Jesus was the son of God last time I went to church about 25 years ago. Have things changed?

The Muslims are the ones who consider him a prophet.

@olga
You're a genius. I mean seriously.
Telling me things I already know?
It's brilliant.

Hey Bob

Thank you for your sincere compliment. What are friends for?

Anyway, kindly let me know how one quotes Jesus' teachings while spewing hate against other human beings.

BTW - there is a book by a well known female Muslim journalist who lives in Toronto. Irshad Manji wrote a book called "The Trouble with Islam" According to her, the majority of Muslims (she gave stats but I can't remember them) don't speak Arabic nor English. The Quran is only available in those languages unless things changed since i read the book about 5 years ago. Therefore Muslims rely on religious leaders to translate for them. What the Quran preaches and what the faithful hear are not the same.

Some humour in the book: Irshad wrote, the Quran never made a reference to suicide bombers being rewarded with "virgins" in paradise for giving up their lives for Islam. The myth is based on the fact that raisins were rare delicacies when the Quran was written and it seems the word "virgins" and "raisins" are very close to each other in Arabic. Supposedly the Quran promises that if Muslims live a good life on earth, they would be able to eat all the raisins they want in paradise after they die.

Back to Hungary and those who refer to Jesus.
Jesus' teachings are translated very clearly in all languages. No misunderstanding what he preached.

@olga
My pleasure.
The difference is that a Jobbik supporter may be a Christian, but a Christian generaly speaking is rarely a saint. Which is why saint are special. But if they sin, they are not being a Christian in sinning. When a Muslim is being a barbarian, it is by and large because he is doing precisely what his faith has commanded him to.
That was the point I was seeking to make.

Thanks to funding from the Saudis, translations of the Qur'an are available in nearly all languages. But I'm afraid, as far as actual Islamic countries are concerned, your journalist is quite wrong. Knowledge of the Qur'an in Qurannic Arabic is frequently considered central to being a true Muslim. Male children often have to recite the whole Qur'an before they first say the Shahada. And it is the apparent beauty of the revealed Qur'an in its orginal language, that is an article of faith for many Muslims.

If you ask me, the woman who has truly identified the problem with Islam, is, and always will be Wafa Sultan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciOGS6r97oE

@ Bob

Maybe you would enjoy reading the book I mentioned. She is quite funny and critical of the way the Quran's message is spread.

I'll check out your reference.

I am not a big fan of Islam but don't know enough about it. My lack of enthusiasm centers around Sharia Law and the way women are treated. But then I don't know if that's not just the lunatic fringe so I don't want to be judgmental when my knowledge is less than limited.

I hardly consider myself, my friends and family "saints" nor does one need to meet the standard of a "Christian Saint" not to insult Christ.

From my perspective that's exactly what's being done when Jesus' name is mentioned in the same posting where horrifying allegations are made against Jews and Romas.

I am starting to sound religious - scary thought.

"Obviously I am not the only one in the world who can see Muslims as not a biological race, but as an ethnic group hold together with a common kernel of culture."
Viking at March 11, 2010 1:58 PM
-----
Please point towards the part of your quotation that justifies this assertion? Because it isn't there
bobscountrybunker at March 11, 2010 2:38 PM
---
1st) You are right that my post on March 11, 2010 1:58 PM does not show that and I try to do a too complicated argument, with too many restrictions.
It was clearly not a good argument and if it was possible to re-write, that post would have been re-written
.
2nd) Here we come to what I quoted earlier from the 'Half-Jewish' network, agreeable many people over the world would argue that:
* If your Mother is seen as a Jew, you are a Jew
* If your Father is seen as a Muslim, you are a Muslim
* If your Parents are seen as Christians, you are a Christian
* In the 'Western World', like Hungary, when born you are default regarded as a Christian, especially if none of the above apply and you belong to the 'White Folks'
.
Not scientific correct, but common to mix up definitions
-
I am not a 'Christian' then I never ever been baptised in any congregation, including the Swedish State Church
The reason for that is not that my Mother was not Christian (she was baptised), it was because she was not married
Hypocritical yes, but according to the Bible, then who can be more correct on how the Bible should be interpreted than the Christian Priests?

The first thing a child born into a Muslim family is supposed to hear is the Shahadah (recited into their right ear); and when they are able to do so they are expected to recite it themselves. Thus they are Muslim
bobscountrybunker at March 11, 2010 2:38 PM
----
Regarding the discussion on the 'Half-Jewish' network, how should then the following mischling (to speak 'Pavian') be classified:
* Born by a Jewish Mother
* Having a Muslim Father
* Having heard the Shahadah in his right ear
-
For the Orthodox Jews, even if this mischling would become the #1 terrorist against Israel and an outspoken anti-Jewish agitator, he would still be regarded as a Jew
But by most people, he would be a Muslim
-
The tradition of saying the Shahadah in a small child's right ear can without doubt be compared to the common practise in the 'Western World' to baptise small babies into the Christian Church before they even have a chance to make their own mind up whether to be a Christian, Muslim or Jew, albeit Converted (if your Mother was not a Jew or your Father was not a Muslim)
Does Muslim children also scream when hearing God's Words?
Wonder why?
-
Regarding the later of 'bob's posts about different aspects on Islam;
* proves what?
That some people do not like Islam?
Oh, that was news!
What did we have the Crusades for?
Should we post the same thing about Christianity, or here we trust our child-molesting priests to be our interpreters that the Bible only contains Good Things (tm)?

Well, I would just like to know what 'bob's continuous anti-Islam rants are supposed to be called?
Feel free to be imaginative and invent new words
Viking at March 9, 2010 10:16 PM
---
So, after some more of "'bob's continuous anti-Islam rants", what should we call them?
.
If Jews cannot be 'racists' by just selecting Jews, then Judaism is a Religion, 'bob' cannot be a 'racist' by posting anti-Islamic rants then Islam is only a Religion
.
I have not a problem if we can agree on this 'standard'?
.
These rants may still fall under the category 'Religous discrimination'
In relation to this we can use the US 1st Amendment, which normally is so popular here:
.
When the U.S. Constitution and its first ten amendments were written, the authors included guarantees of religious freedom among the federal civil service and officeholders
Article 6 of the Constitution states:
.
"No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
.
Inclusion of this clause was probably partly motivated by the large number of non-Christians among the authors of the Constitution, including many Deists"

"Should we post the same thing about Christianity, or here we trust our child-molesting priests to be our interpreters that the Bible only contains Good Things (tm)?"
Viking at March 12, 2010 9:19 AM
-----
If you continue in this idioctic vein, what indeed is the point? Other than having yourself be the last person to post on a topic?

As I made clear, in:
http://www.politics.hu/20100304/march-15th-madness-avoided-as-parties-distance-themselves-from-each-other#c293
through c295
"Again you are confused. But I have given you all the information you need not to be so confused. All you must do is simply read it... ...There is no point continuing the discussion if you refuse to read the text I have provided to alleviate your ignorance Viking, and persist in making comments based on no more than the profundity of that ignorance.

So try and actually read and appreciate the difference, I went to great pains to explain it to you.
http://www.politics.hu/20100304/march-15th-madness-avoided-as-parties-distance-themselves-from-each-other#c296
through c298

You then compound your continuation of this absurdist principle that you must surely hold, namely "the opinions of bobscountrybunker can be slandered with any term whatsoever on the one condition that no evidence exists for it." By going on to say:

"These rants may still fall under the category 'Religous discrimination'"
Viking at March 12, 2010 9:34 AM

-----
HA! Please explain in what way whatsoever, these "rants" as you like to term them, consititute discrimination????
(How you love to dismiss as "ranting" the calm, referenced, lengthy and methodical explanation of realities Viking.)

The definition of "Discrimination" by wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination
(not ideal, but nevertheless) starts: "Discrimination is a sociological term referring to the treatment taken toward or against a person of a certain group in consideration based solely on class or category. Discrimination is the actual behavior towards another group. It involves excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to other groups."

So what have I done? Who, and how, have I restricted, or exluded or prevented - anyone - from doing anything?? I have merely informed people of the realities of this Religion. Realities that for some perverse reason you would rather be blind to.

Beforehand, having a view about something that is a religion not a race: was Racism. Now it seems the act, merely of informing, consitutes "Discrimination." How is this possible Viking? Please answer this simple question before you attempt once more to blur the issue with waffle again.

What PC claptrap! Welcome to the brave new world folks, where truth is the new hate speech!

@Bob - you didn't answer my question @Mar 10, 8.15pm. That would probably bring us closer in answering your own question, which you earlier posed to us (or rather, bystander), as to whether you have said anything racist before. I can't exactly recall the past posts, but you sure can clarify a big part of this issue with your answer.

@Curious George
I had no idea you asked me one. I'll check quickly now. But then I am going to have to go out. So limited time.

the act, merely of informing, consitutes "Discrimination." How is this possible Viking? Please answer this simple question
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 12:22 PM
---
My answer is the Dutch discussion on your Idol Geert Wilders (you added him to this debate), as you can see even the Jews see him as a racist, even if Islam is not a race:
-http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/03/wilders_antiislam_akin_to_anti.php
-
And now to a new question:
* Do you agree that people inside the European Union should not be discriminated in any sense for their religion, even if they clearly express their support for Islam, by any legal means available to any citizen?
-
Religion is, like politics, a rather infected subject. In your "information" you claim that people (Muslims in this case) as a group are bad (they must do bad things against us non-believers) and you support that with a number of statements (which no-one here will ever check, but given your lies in the Nóra Horák case maybe we should?), should you not concentrate on what the Religious Leaders for the Majority Islam congregations are saying/preaching here in Europe?
Do you have any quotes on similar statements from any today in the EU acting Muslim Religious Leader from a *major* congregation?
.
Or we will in the future hit each other with stupid statements made by Jewish, Muslim and Christian so called Religious Leaders?
Believe me there are a lot of those...

My answer is the Dutch discussion on your Idol Geert Wilders (you added him to this debate), as you can see even the Jews see him as a racist, even if Islam is not a race.
Viking at March 12, 2010 3:24 PM
-----
At last an admission! And it only takes about 10,000 words to get one out of you.

But I am glad to see your fantasy machine, sorry brain, is still working overtime. You really are an allmighty moron, do you know that?
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c60bf53ef01156f6ba3de970c-500wi
But what can I say? Keep slugging champ.
Convincing yourself is all that matters in the end.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH SUMMIT: GEERT WILDERS "WE ARE ALL ISRAEL NOW" Part II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W5JgQftaTI

Would you care to quote Mr Wilders from 02:15 - 05:20, when he talks about Israel, in a Synagogue, wearing a kippah. To prove your point? Hmm? Care to describe the rapturous applause he gets, from the people in the synagogue? Hmm? Tell me again how “even the Jews see him as a racists”?

It's really important, I think, that people find out how much hard research you put into your ever so rational opinions...

@Curious George
1.
The answer to your first question is that yes they would have the same rights to settle as each other. But they would not have the same rights as current citizens. In the sense that as far as I can read, the Jobbik manifesto grants voting and settlement rights, but not rights to the receipt of things like pension benefits. If you haven't been paying in, the say, you shouldn't receive.
They make no mention of the religion of such Hungarians abroad whatsoever.

Your second question is a bit more complex. And if you will permit me I will split it in to. Because it seems to me to be asking two questions: first what my objections are to the current European immigration policy, and second what I would consider to be a better system. I think it important to say that somone's colour has no bearing whatsoever. I am in a hurry so will have to be brief. I hope clarity will not suffer as a result.

The first problem is that we have, and are accepting 10s of millions of people into Europe, who have, to put it cruedly, no idea what the inside of a church looks like. They come from a culture so divorced from our own, and Islamic culture, whose history proves successively - as is happening in Nigeria now - that when demograohic proportions reach a certain level (usually 30-40%) civil war always erupts.

2.
As Samuel Huntingdon correctly identified almost all of the worlds conflicts today, both civil and cross-border wars, involve Islam on the one side and some other culture on the other.

“Islam’s borders are bloody and so are its innards. The fundamental problem for the West is not Islamic fundamentalism. It is Islam, a different civilisation whose people are convinced of the superiority of their culture and are obsessed with the inferiority of their power.”

I do not want this reality to come to Europe. We are making it happen. As Geert Wilders correctly said in London the other week, “remember: mass immigration and demographics is destiny!”
http://www.geertwilders.nl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1662&Itemid=1

What IS happening in Europe now? Take for example Spain. In Spain if you cross the border provided they cannot identify which country you come from, you must by law be let out into the general population after six weeks. So what masses, and I do mean masses of Senegalese people do, is just pretend to be from war torn Cote d’Ivoire. Because of the conflict, no enquiries can be made, they are let out. Then the Spanish government is forced by sheer mass of numbers to declare amnesties granting such people citizenship. Somalis in Brussels will then use Schengen to travel to Spain to get amnesty, and then return to Brussels as naturalized “Spanish” citizens.

3.
This lunacy is just the tip of the iceberg and it is clear it cannot continue. Or at least someone like me has the nerve to say it cannot.

I am not a racist I am a pragmatist. Both in terms of immigration and culture the contrast is the same, and the philosophy of the multi-culturalist is the same: keep making allowances. And if you don’t, and those who don’t? Call them a racist!

But anyone can tell you, if you keep making allowances, if you keep surrendering territory soon you will have no territory. Every other country: Russia, China, Japan, the US, appreciates this reality. And so doesn’t maintain the lunatic approach Europe does.

Because if you keep letting people in. And trust me that’s all it takes. For 99% of immigrants to Europe one they are in, they are in for good. Where is it to stop? Virtually the whole of Africa, and much of the Muslim world, would much rather live in Europe if they could. To take advantage of our healthcare, and superior economic prospects. Who can blame them? But if we do let them, then soon enough we will no longer be able to afford these healthcare systems and our infrastructures will buckle deteriorating our economic prospects.

4.
If you keep denigrating European national cultures (no matter how well meaning your motives) soon enough there will be simple be no European national cultures to speak of.

If you are NOT to let this happen, there MUST come a point at which you say: STOP. I believe that this time has now come. In fact it is long overdue.

So second, what kind of system would I prefer. One in which no form of immigration happened to Europe that was either illegal, or asylum based. No asylum whatsoever. And anyone foolish enough to break this requirement should be sent back to their country of origin: without exception. No tears, no excuses. Yes victims of torture, and the oppressed too. As I said there must come a point at which you say: stop. The truth is that Europe has enough dependants, enough people on social benefits. And the more it has simply impairs its ability to support the ones it already has.
To say nothing of the fact, that people who come to Europe seeking the freedom and liberties we used to enjoy, now form minorities, the protection of whom our masters are using to deprive us of those very liberties and freedoms. We are living through the days, the very year in fact, 2010, when European Freedom of Speech is being abolished by EU directive.

5.
What we should have is a points based system, in which only people with the qualifications and qualities we in Europe want and need, and preferably have a job to fill. All of Australian immigration operates on a similar system. It will also be necessary to remove automatic rights to settle of the dependants of immigrants like parents.

So to answer your question directly, if you have the qualifications and the qualities Europe needs, and a job offer? Then, come in. Wherever you come from. But if you come from an Islamic country. No thanks.

The European Liberal / Left point of view is so strange as to be positively bizarre. Less than fifty years ago the Algerians went to war to expel the 100s of thousands of Frenchmen that were in their country. And the left thinks, “well done, right-on, fight for your freedom!” But now millions of Algerians are in the South of France, and if a Frenchman dares to say, “What’s going on?” It’s: Racist! Fascist! Xenophobe!

The point is, Europe has no moral duty or obligation to give residence to the citizens of the world. It should look on its borders the same way countries do. Their own territory. You don’t let anyone who just happens to be outside your house and climbs over your fence, the right to live with you, do you? It’s that simple.

@ Bob

Frankly, I scroll down and seldom read anything you write about the European Muslim invasion because I am stuck on Hungarian issues at the moment.

Hungary is not exactly a heaven for Muslim immigrants - Someone sent me a "scare video" about Muslim statistics and how they will take over Europe. I am sure you have see the video I am referring to. Specific countries were mentioned but definitely not Hungary.

I hate to miss (I am serious) your thoughts on the Neo-Nazi surge in Hungary and Europe as it relates to Jews and Roma.

@Olga: Hi, nice to hear again a sane voice in this jungle of jobos ...

It's just no use argueing with them - let's wait until after election day (April 11)

We'll watch it from afar - just booked a flight to SFO, start eastwards from there and will see the Wild, Wild West over Easter - would have liked to go to Vancouver too, but North America is just too big ...

@olga
Frankly, I scroll down and seldom read anything you write about the European Muslim invasion because I am stuck on Hungarian issues at the moment.
-----
And? This was a response to someone who asked me a question. It was not directed to you. But thanks for sharing.

Hungary is not exactly a heaven for Muslim immigrants.
-----
D'Oh silly me! Yes of course.
Even though the governing of immigrant levels is now totally out of the hands of individual national governments thanks to the Lisbon treaty, I had completely forgotten... There is that 300ft 2 mile wide concrete wall separating Western and Eastern Europe, and so they will never come.

And the standard of living in Hungary is so bad, that someone who has lived on Zebra shit in Somalia and is willing to crawl through barbed wire to get into Europe, they'll never consider it.

I hate to miss (I am serious) your thoughts on the Neo-Nazi surge in Hungary and Europe as it relates to Jews and Roma.
----
Well what a coincidence! You think my contention about the Muslim invasion of Europe is a fantasy. And almost identically, I think talk of a "Neo-Nazi surge in Hungary" is just so much horseshit.

After all, I've only got conflict and demographics in Britain, Ireland, France, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, Beligum, German, Spain, Italy and Austria to back up my case.

Whereas you... erm... you. Remind me again, apart from the fact that the oldest continuous symbol of Hungarian nationhood, the Árpád Stripes is used by Jobbik…
(seen here used by the Hungarian state Office of National Security – by the way, that’s the very agency who does things like invent “bomb” footage about filthy nationalist “terrorists” – and you wonder why we call Hungary Absurdistan?)
…was also used in variation by the Arrow Cross; erm, what is it you have exactly to prove your case about Neo-Nazis??

@ Bob

I really wasn't trying to insult you.

- as soon as I received that Muslim email I sent it to a friend who gets paid big bucks for statistical analysis. I rec'd a long explanation as to why the stats were flawed. Deleted the email but remember some of it that I know no one wants to read at this point

By all accounts, the mainstream media reports (sorry i don't listen to any other media) ultra -wing Nazi parties are popping up in Europe since 2000

Do you trust National Geographics? I first read about it in that magazine. Since then, I have read about it in just about every newspaper I read and yes, they are Canadian or US papers. Do you trust any of them?

Don’t ever immigrate to Canada. CTV carried the following news item (excerpt) two nights ago

“The next generation of Canadians could be comprised of nearly one-third visible minorities according to new projections from Statistics Canada, which also suggest that the majority of immigrants will continue to make their homes in large urban centres.

The federal statistics agency says between 11.4 million and 14.4 million people belonging to a visible minority group will be living in Canada by 2031. If the StatsCan projections are accurate, the population of visible minorities will be at least twice as big as the 5.3 million reported in 2006. “

So far no white folk committed suicide and no reports of anyone objecting to the news.

@ Olga;

Hey speak for yourself! I wasn't to thrilled when I heard that on the news.

as you can see even the Jews see him as a racist, even if Islam is not a race.
Viking at March 12, 2010 3:24 PM
-----
At last an admission! And it only takes about 10,000 words to get one out of you.
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 4:26 PM
---
Ehh, now you are lying again (and posting for the history machine, hoping I will miss this post)
.
My statement, that you have tried to make into I was claiming 'Islam is a race', because I 'hinted' that you were a 'racist' for your anti-Islam rants:
---
Well, I would just like to know what 'bob's continuous anti-Islam rants are supposed to be called?
Feel free to be imaginative and invent new words
Viking at March 9, 2010 10:16 PM
---
You are now a very sorrow person (probably not very sad though) with your lies about the raped and murdered Nóra Horák
You use that terrible crime to score political points on, by lying also!
What did you do in your daytime profession:
* academic work
* journalism
No wonder Hungary has hardly any real investigative journalist
-
http://www.politics.hu/20100312/us-human-rights-report-on-hungary-highlights-violence-against-roma
-
See my post for details (link above, post-ID below):
Viking at March 12, 2010 2:51 PM

Tell me again how “even the Jews see him as a racists”?
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 4:34 PM
---
Favourites repeated on public demand:
-
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/03/wilders_antiislam_akin_to_anti.php
-
"Entertainment entrepreneur Harry de Winter has taken out a page-wide advert on the front page of Monday’s Volkskrant newspaper accusing MP Geert Wilders of racism
...
The advert is signed by the foundation ‘Another Jewish voice’, which De Winter helped found.

In an interview with the paper, De Winter says that Wilders’ approach to Islam is like the build-up of anti-Jewish sentiment before World War II. ‘I see no difference between a skull-cap (worn by Jewish men) and a headscarf,’ De Winter said"
--
That you will find other Jewish persons happy over Wilders' anti-Islam remarks, would that not support my earlier statement that this anti-Islam drive coordinated over Western Europe today, is fuelled (funded?) by pro-Israeli funds?
No one can claim that an anti-Islam Europe would be a Good Thing(tm) for the current extreme nationalist Government in Israel?
I have written about this earlier, so it is no news
.
All these conspiracy theorists, like Law, Mark/B_Jim/etc, maybe they should check you out?
Maybe you are the Mossad-agent amongst us?

The first problem is that we have, and are accepting 10s of millions of people into Europe, who have, to put it cruedly, no idea what the inside of a church looks like
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 4:35 PM
----
1) OK, I do not know why they should know how a church look inside, then they are here to work, right?
What they do on their free-time, I think is up to them
.
2) "are accepting 10s of millions of people into Europe"
Is this figure per minute/hour/day/week/month/year or since your Grand Father was born?
Maybe a *bit* more stringent arguments are needed here
We really do not want to see you as our local Populist, do we?

I give you a video of Wilders, in a kippah, praising Israel, in a synagogue. With Jews rapturously applauding him at every turn over and over.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W5JgQftaTI

I ask you, if you "would care to quote Mr Wilders from 02:15 - 05:20 ...To prove your point?" that "even the Jews [please note your use of the plural here] see him as a racist"

And what is your "proof" of your case?
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/03/wilders_antiislam_akin_to_anti.php
Quote. "Entertainment entrepreneur Harry de Winter has taken out a page-wide advert on the front page of Monday’s Volkskrant newspaper accusing MP Geert Wilders of racism...
...The advert is signed by the foundation ‘Another Jewish voice’, which De Winter helped found."Unquote
One Jew. Makes this claim. And signs it in the name of an organization he has paid for.
This is your "proof".

You do know the difference between the words "one" and "most" don't you? If you do. Then how can you make this argument with a straight face?
By this identical logic you use, if one Jew says something: it is true. Even if all the others disgaree. If one Jew had said Hitler wasn't an
anti-Semite, this would be so? This is the logic of your statement on Wilders.

I have always thought you stupid Viking, but never until this moment, positively insane.

Be frank. Is this your entertainment? Do the nurses in the mental ward let you use the computer to log onto Politics.hu at break times?

Take for example Spain. In Spain if you cross the border provided they cannot identify which country you come from, you must by law be let out into the general population after six weeks
...
Somalis in Brussels will then use Schengen to travel to Spain to get amnesty, and then return to Brussels as naturalized “Spanish” citizens.
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 4:36 PM
---
Spain did *one* amnesty, because they did had a shortage of legal workers at that time
.
If you are a non-Latin person and Muslim you are deported after the 6 weeks, if you are from Ecuador, Colombia, Romania, etc, forget it

Just remembered:
Spain had no visa requirements with Morocco before it joined the EU
You know old colonialism and so, like in the UK, most of the immigrants there are from the old colonies, and not really immigrants to Europe

@Viking
2) "are accepting 10s of millions of people into Europe"
Is this figure per minute/hour/day/week/month/year or since your Grand Father was born?
Maybe a *bit* more stringent arguments are needed here
We really do not want to see you as our local Populist, do we?
Viking at March 13, 2010 1:35 AM
-----
Again denying the reality. Is supposed to be a substitute for dealing with it. How very Marxist of you.

But it isn't a substitute for dealing with it. And pretending it is just makes you a dick.

I keep telling you that parties like Jobbik grow precisely because of this mechanism. And not only do you end up denying the reality of the growth. (That Marxist method again.) You simply refuse to understand that it is the maintenance of this denial that is the biggest factor in that growth.

Keep criticising in this hollow, and empty way. Keep demanding "proof" for the realities all of us can see. And all you do is guarantee Jobbik's future growth.

That you cannot see this, or refuse to face it, is positively pathetic.

(And by the way we are all still waiting for your explanation of how Jobbik is the Nazi party. Or will I have to perist at this for days also, before you finally admit, that it is all horse manure? Like the way Islam was a "race" a few days ago?)

Because if you keep letting people in. And trust me that’s all it takes. For 99% of immigrants to Europe one they are in, they are in for good. Where is it to stop?
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 4:36 PM
---
* As the situation is today, we have (in Europe) 4 active workers per retired person
.
* Around 2030-2050, if nothing *radical* is done, we will have 1-2 active workers per retired person
-
Every one do the math;
* How much will these 1-2 workers need to pay in to the Pension Fund System to support all these retireds?
Forget that you will have 'your' money that you paid in, today we pay for today's retired people, tomorrow our children will be paying for us
-
Ask the Wilders and 'bob' how they plan to solve this problem?
They will get their dicks out and start screwing around?
Maybe Gábor Zázrivecz (aka Vona) is doing this also already now with all those (4) nice Jobbik girls?
A Party Leader must set a Good Example(tm)

If you are a non-Latin person and Muslim you are deported after the 6 weeks, if you are from Ecuador, Colombia, Romania, etc, forget it
Viking at March 13, 2010 1:42 AM
-----
I am greatly enjoying your fantasising over the realities of deportation and immigration in Spain. I look forward to your proving your assertion by means of references. Any will do. Even ones as laughable as "entertainment entrepreneur Harry de Winter."

To say nothing of the fact, that people who come to Europe seeking the freedom and liberties we used to enjoy, now form minorities, the protection of whom our masters are using to deprive us of those very liberties and freedoms. We are living through the days, the very year in fact, 2010, when European Freedom of Speech is being abolished by EU directive.
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 4:37 PM
---
So *who* are our 'masters' then?
We, the people, did not elect those politicians?

So to answer your question directly, if you have the qualifications and the qualities Europe needs, and a job offer? Then, come in. Wherever you come from. But if you come from an Islamic country. No thanks.
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 4:37 PM
---
So strict discrimination based on 'religion', because if we speak about refuges from a typical "Islamic" country, like Iran, we would normally speak about non-believers of Islam
But still, 'they are probably undercover-Muslims'
.
Think if the US have had that policy towards people fleeing from Communist-countries?
Not so many Hungarians would have made it to the US before 1990

Hungary is not exactly a heaven for Muslim immigrants.
-----
D'Oh silly me! Yes of course.
Even though the governing of immigrant levels is now totally out of the hands of individual national governments thanks to the Lisbon treaty
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 9:10 PM
---
What a fucking bull-shit!
Prove the article in the Treaty
We have had that discussion before and you just faded away ending up in your 'Mouse-tactic'
.
The new regulations are there to take away the pressure on the border states (due to 'Country of 1st Arrival') and *pay* any other state that want to receive a regulated number of immigrants
So, we will earn money and get workers
What is the problem?

To say nothing of the fact, that people who come to Europe seeking the freedom and liberties we used to enjoy, now form minorities, the protection of whom our masters are using to deprive us of those very liberties and freedoms. We are living through the days, the very year in fact, 2010, when European Freedom of Speech is being abolished by EU directive.
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 4:37 PM
---
So *who* are our 'masters' then?
We, the people, did not elect those politicians?
Viking at March 13, 2010 1:59 AM


No Viking. Once again you have demonstrated the credence all your statements deserve.

The European Commission is "the only institution empowered to initiate [European] legislation".
Like the Framework Decision on "hate speech."

And European Commissioners are appointed, they are not, and never have been, elected by the European citizen.

For once in your life find out the facts, you fucking retard.
My patience for morons is exhausted for the day.

Whereas you... erm... you. Remind me again, apart from the fact that the oldest continuous symbol of Hungarian nationhood, the Árpád Stripes is used by Jobbik…
(seen here used by the Hungarian state Office of National Security – by the way, that’s the very agency who does things like invent “bomb” footage about filthy nationalist “terrorists” – and you wonder why we call Hungary Absurdistan?)
…was also used in variation by the Arrow Cross; erm, what is it you have exactly to prove your case about Neo-Nazis??
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 9:10 PM
---
You are getting totally confused?
If you are responding to your own stupid statement in:
-
http://www.politics.hu/20100311/jobbik-surges-ahead-in-march-szonda-ipsos-finds#c44
-
That I discuss in my post:
Viking at March 12, 2010 11:28 PM
"Any fool can see the strong resemblance to the Arrow Cross and Nazis.
Pete H. at March 12, 2010 5:06 PM
-----
And only a fool would.
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 5:44 PM"
-
So, that the Arrow Cross Party uses 9 stripes instead of the Arpad-stripe flag of 8?
And that would make the Arrow Cross party not 'Nazi'
Did you lose the plot and crossed-posted?

You do know the difference between the words "one" and "most" don't you? If you do. Then how can you make this argument with a straight face?
By this identical logic you use, if one Jew says something: it is true. Even if all the others disgaree
bobscountrybunker at March 13, 2010 1:39 AM
---
Is this not *exactly* your logic with the Muslims?
You find *your* interpretations representing a minority stream inside Islam and they are the 'Truth'
I showed you one case where Jews call Wilders a racist and I explained why I think more Jews are positive to Wilders' and yours opinion on Islam
Our little Mossad-agent
The pride of 'elle/sophie/tunde/, 'mark/big jim', Law, 'ricsi/fabian'
You are sooo cute together
.
Why do you not speak with some of the Interfaith organisations that are popping up everywhere now?
One example is "European Jews for a just Peace"
-
http://www.ejjp.org/
-
Dror Feiler (chairman), Sweden, had an exhibition at the Museum of Modern Arts in Stockholm a few years ago. It was attacked physically by the Israeli Ambassador who claimed it was 'anti-Semitic'
Dror Feiler is of course Jewish
-
I do not think these Jews will share Wilders' and your 'ideas'...

Ah the Árpád Stripes again! I think this is the 100th time I have explained this is ONE OF THE OLDEST HUNGARIAN NATIONAL SYMBOLS!!!
And it is only the 4th time I have had to explain it here. Interesting how your quote of my comment, deliberatley removes this.
When will condemn the Office of National Security for their Nazism, Viking?
http://www.nbh.hu/oldpage/english/index.htm

You utter moron.

Now where we? Oh yes...

D'Oh silly me! Yes of course.

Even though the governing of immigrant levels is now totally out of the hands of individual national governments thanks to the Lisbon treaty
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 9:10 PM
---
What a fucking bull-shit!
Prove the article in the Treaty
We have had that discussion before and you just faded away ending up in your 'Mouse-tactic'

Ah how wonderful. It is interesting isn't it. You are a person who thinks that European Commisioners are elected. Who thinks that Islam is a race. Who thinks that one Jews opinion is the opinion of all Jews. Who is an expert on Spanish repatriation. And who says the Lisbon Treaty is so. And it must be so.

You are the biggest unbelievable CONSTANT bullshit merchant. And yet it is I who have to give references. I who have to give proofs of MY assertions. When I say that something is a fact. It is I who must be questioned. I who must provide evidence. While you flit from comment to comment making up your silly stories, and everyone is just supposed to believe you. Arsehole.

No Viking. Once again you have demonstrated the credence all your statements deserve.

The European Commission is "the only institution empowered to initiate [European] legislation".
Like the Framework Decision on "hate speech."

And European Commissioners are appointed, they are not, and never have been, elected by the European citizen.

For once in your life find out the facts, you fucking retard.
My patience for morons is exhausted for the day.
bobscountrybunker at March 13, 2010 2:16 AM
---
Ohh, so sad
Finished the bottle?
Well I just need to go out on the back-side to find another, or should I wake up one of the workers to get one for me?
All these decisions always...
.
And *who for fuck's sake elects the European Commission* (EC)?
(A very long time for 'bob' (who is not a person, but a building by its own words (intelligence-level is definitely somewhere between mortar and bricks))
..........
Time's up!
.
And the answer is:
The EU Member States!
And who elects the different National Governments?
Right, the people
(Yes, you will have your cookie when this post is finished, w8!)
-
The European Parliament (EP) shares legislative power equally with the Council of the European Union
This means it is empowered to adopt European laws (directives, regulations etc,)
It can accept, amend or reject the content of European legislation
.
But the EP cannot *initiate* legislation
-
The EC is *exactly* what Jobbik want as the level of EU-integration, they hate the EP, so WTF?

When I say that something is a fact. It is I who must be questioned. I who must provide evidence. While you flit from comment to comment making up your silly stories, and everyone is just supposed to believe you. Arsehole.
bobscountrybunker at March 13, 2010 2:47 AM
---
Like your lies about the raped and murdered girl Nóra Horák?
You use that terrible crime to score political points on, by lying also!
-
http://www.politics.hu/20100312/us-human-rights-report-on-hungary-highlights-violence-against-roma
-
See my post (Viking at March 12, 2010 2:51 PM) for details (link above)
-
If you do not believe me, ask my sources, no problem, so I do not understand why you should be nervous, a journalist and all?
Hungarian journalists are well-known to state 'facts'?

1st
Ah Islam again. Here we go again:
By this identical logic you use, if one Jew says something: it is true. Even if all the others disagree
bobscountrybunker at March 13, 2010 1:39 AM
---
Is this not *exactly* your logic with the Muslims?
You find *your* interpretations representing a minority stream inside Islam and they are the 'Truth'
-----


But the point is numbnuts. That my saying that the Shariah is a combination of the sayings and example of the life of the prophet and the Qur’an, is not *MY* interpretation of Islam. It *IS* Islam.

That Muslims, to be Muslims, must follow the Sharia, is not *MY* interpretation of Islam. It *IS* Islam.

Look. It is not my fault that their prophet told them to cut off their little girls genitalia. It is not *MY* interpretation that this is in the Sunnah. It *IS* in the Sunnah.

It is not *MY* interpretation that the Qur’an says that apostates and the kuffar when met in battle must “have their head struck from their shoulders.” The Qur’an *DOES* say this.

THAT IS WHY THEY DO IT!!

Why are you so medically incapable of accepting this?

2nd
And *who for fuck's sake elects the European Commission* (EC)?
NOT THE EUROPEAN VOTER!
NOT THE EUROPEAN VOTER!!
NOT THE EUROPEAN VOTER!!!
YOU SAID:
So *who* are our 'masters' then?
We, the people, did not elect those politicians?
Viking at March 13, 2010 1:59 AM
NO! NO! A thousand times you deranged fucking imbecile: NO!! NO!! NO!!

That’s the fucking point! We do not elect the people, the Commissioners, who make so many of our laws. It doesn’t matter that we elect those who are involved in the appointing process. WE DO NOT CHOOSE THEM. That is NOT democracy. Democracy is when you vote for the people who make your laws!!!

Why do you find REALITY so impossible to deal with???

Europe and immigration
Here is a nice link to the right part of the Lisbon Treaty.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2007:306:0042:0133:EN:PDF
Now find
CHAPTER 2
POLICIES ON BORDER CHECKS, ASYLUM AND IMMIGRATION

Article 62 1 (a) state that the EU will ensure:
“the absence of any controls on persons, whatever their nationality, when crossing internal borders”

Article 62 1 (c) requires
“the gradual introduction of an integrated management system for external borders.”

While Article 62 2 will give the EU the power to decide on who and for how long residents of non-EU states, even those from the Délvidék or Kárpátalja say, will be able to stay in Hungary. The European Union will also determine the border checks that those people face.

Article 63a sections 1 and 2 will give the EU full power over asylum and introduce easier immigration for those that it feels should receive subsidiary protection.

While the rest of the sections of Article 63a and 63b give effective control of the immigration policy of member states.

With the one exception, Article 63a Section 5, which states that members should be able to determine the volume of people coming to their countries who seek employment.

Note of course the difference between those seeking employment and asylum.

For those not keen on reading the letter of the law, let those well known Racists, Xenophobes, Anti-Semites, Islamophobes and Nazis, the Irish, explain. The same things apply to all member states.
http://www.coircampaign.org/index.php/info-euguide/lisbon-treaty-guide

Lisbon means we lose control over immigration
If the Lisbon Treaty is passed Ireland will lose her control over immigration - even when immigrants are coming from countries outside the EU. We’ll be forced to accept the common EU policy on immigration and asylum.

Ireland opened her doors to more than 400,000 immigrants following the Nice Treaty. But now that we’re facing an economic downturn, with 2,000 jobs being lost each week, it’s crucial that we keep control of our immigration policy.

The problem is that if we sign up to the Lisbon Treaty we’ll have signed away the right to decide who can come to Ireland looking for employment. That’ll be decided by the EU and it simply won’t matter how that affects us, our economy and our unemployment rate.

That Muslims, to be Muslims, must follow the Sharia, is not *MY* interpretation of Islam. It *IS* Islam.
...
THAT IS WHY THEY DO IT!!
...
And *who for fuck's sake elects the European Commission* (EC)?
NOT THE EUROPEAN VOTER!
NOT THE EUROPEAN VOTER!!
NOT THE EUROPEAN VOTER!!!
YOU SAID:
So *who* are our 'masters' then?
We, the people, did not elect those politicians?
Viking at March 13, 2010 1:59 AM
NO! NO! A thousand times you deranged fucking imbecile: NO!! NO!! NO!!
bobscountrybunker at March 13, 2010 3:40 AM
---
1st) But most of the Muslims in the world do *not* follow Sharia-Law
How many Christians follow what the Pope say or even the 10 Commandments?
The Muslims are normal people in general and trz to survive today to live tomorrow, like all of us
-
2nd) Have you heard of 'Representative Democracy'?
It means I elect officials that do their work in my name, including choosing Government
Who elected the current Hungarian PM Bajnai?
Who elects the Chief of Police?
etc...
.
And *why* do you have a problem with the EC?
In your world the EU should be a cooperative of equal States, there is no place for an European Parliament there
The people of the member states would still not vote for any EU-officials in the Jobbik-EU
That is the lowest form of populism by you anti-EU people
You are accusing the System for a defect, that your ideas would make worse

We do not elect the people, the Commissioners, who make so many of our laws. It doesn’t matter that we elect those who are involved in the appointing process. WE DO NOT CHOOSE THEM. That is NOT democracy. Democracy is when you vote for the people who make your laws!!!
bobscountrybunker at March 13, 2010 3:42 AM
---
But you are wrong!
No law is approved until *both* the European Council and the European Parliament have agreed upon it
.
See it more like this:
* The EC represent the National Government 9in Brussels
* The EP represent the people who bothered to vote in that Nation
* These 2 shares the responsibility of creating legislation
+ The EC initiates proposals to laws
+ The EP modifies it in several level of administration (committees, hearings, etc) until it comes to the full Parliament for a debate and vote
* If the EP and EC cannot agree, it all starts again
-
You may call this undemocratic, but how will Jobbik's 'European Union of Nations' work then?
Will you be able to vote for all seats in the EC?
.
If there will be '1 Man 1 Vote' not so many Hungarians will be elected among the 350-400 million European voters
.
Talk of concentrating power to the populous states, like Poland, Germany and France
.
But much more 'democratic' right?

But most of the Muslims in the world do *not* follow Sharia-Law.
You are a fantasist. Where do you get your proof for these stupendously ignorant statements? They live in countries governed by precisely this law. This is why they are called "Islamic" countries. (It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Pope or the 10 Commandments.)
It could not be more simple.

Have you heard of 'Representative Democracy'?
A direct democracy is where the people create the laws that they live by.
A representative democracy is where the people elect others to create the laws that they live by.
The European electorate do not elect the people who create the European laws that the European people live by.
It could not be more simple.

That is the lowest form of populism by you anti-EU people
And so we finally get down to it. After all this time, and all your waffle. You have tonight been making three points consistently this evening:
*That Muslims don't follow Sharia. Yes they do. That's what makes them Muslims.
*That people who fly the Árpád Flag are Nazis. No they are not. Otherwise the NBH would be Nazis.
*And that the European people vote for those that create European Law. And they do not.

But I am glad you are finally getting down to your point: your real point. The “lowest form of populism.” You have no arguments, no evidence, nothing: to back any of your assertions. Because they are plain bollocks.

So just come out and say it. Yes, you know deep down what I am talking about.

Just say it.

That anyone who dares disagree with you on these three points, and says that, Muslims are Islamic, that the Árpád Flag is not Nazi, and that the EU is anti-democratic. Is playing with a dangerous low form of populism, and, you know you want to say it, that they are thinking the kind of thoughts that must be stopped, because they will inevitably lead to Auschwitz.

Just be brave. Just come out and say it.

Anyone who disagrees with you, and points out what total and utter shit you talk is a secret Nazi, and they must be stopped, and preferably silenced, to prevent another holocaust. It is what you believe. Why do you have to play such boring games?

And then we can finally bring this rather pitiful, and exceptionally tedious charade of yours to an end.

Lisbon means we lose control over immigration bobscountrybunker at March 13, 2010 3:44 AM
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Not totally true:
1) A common policy in all questions regarding Asylum and Immigration is supposed to be agreed upon
This means that both the European Commission (representing the National Governments) and the European Parliament (elected by close to 500 million people) need to agree
.
2) A common policy has a chance to make it easier to handle the flow of refugees
Today the refuges exploit the different standards and rules that apply in the different member states (Read 'bob's Spanish example above)
.
3) For legal immigrants every member state can set their quotas
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4) For asylum-seekers there is no planning (which country has a plan for that? Ask Canada), then it is not a plan-able object
Suddenly refuges can show up in one part of the EU border and that part becomes flooded (remember al states *must* follow the Geneva Convention of 28 July 1951 and the Protocol of 31 January 1967 relating to the status of refugees, and other relevant treaties)
In this case the European Council on a proposal from the European Commission Commission, may adopt provisional measures for the benefit of the Member State(s) concerned
It shall act after consulting the European Parliament
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So in all steps the EP need to be agreeing or in the emergency part, consulted.
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The meaning with integration is that you *integrate*, so more common laws is what we have to expect, but that is hardly any sensation

You have tonight been making three points consistently this evening:
*That Muslims don't follow Sharia. Yes they do. That's what makes them Muslims.
*That people who fly the Árpád Flag are Nazis. No they are not. Otherwise the NBH would be Nazis.
*And that the European people vote for those that create European Law. And they do not.
bobscountrybunker at March 13, 2010 4:56 AM
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1) 1 Billion Muslims do not follow Sharia-Law, then Sharia Law is not implemented every where where they live, that is rather simple
Not every Muslim live in an Islamic country
* Show an Islamic country in the EU, where Sharia Law is valid?
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2) Where did I say that "people who fly the Árpád Flag are Nazis"?
Where?
You are just lying again
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3) Show me how the not direct elected European Commission (that is *approved* by the European Parliament) can create legislation *by themselves*?
All legislation *must be approved* by the European Parliament, so why are muddling the water?
It is very clear!
And the National Parliament, through it's Government, chooses the proposal to come up for approval to the European Parliament
The day the National Parliament will lose this control over the EU, your kind will scream like the small piggies you are:
"It is undemocratic to remove the National Parliament from controlling the EU"
But at the moment you will call it 'undemocratic!' as the true populist you are
.
What you have are just charades and lies
Sad

And then we can finally bring this rather pitiful, and exceptionally tedious charade of yours to an end.
bobscountrybunker at March 13, 2010 4:58 AM
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Stop writing lies on what I have written and stop writing lies on the rape and murder of Nóra Horák

@Viking:

Trying to put reason into BullshitBob ?

Well ...

Like his screams about "electing" - has he never heard about "indirect democracy" ? Your cabinet with the ministers in the Hungarian government aren't elected by the people - they are elected by parliament. So in Bob's mind (does he have one ?) this is undemocratic ?

Yesterday I had a look again at Jobbik's "English manifest" - it really is a fantastic example of perfect "National Socialism" with all the nice words (family, nation, chistian, tradition, country, etc) hiding their Nazi intentions.

Now I'd only like to know why (in the mind of the jobos) Hungary needs a stronger army to "defend the Hungarian hinterland".

Strange words !

Defending the hinterland from whom ?

PS:

Thanks Viking for your efforts!

Though it's impossible to get reason into Bob and his like, his answers show very clearly what kind of dangerous Nazi he is - we're lucky that we don't live in the first half of the 20th century, where his kind rose to power , killing millions ...

@Bobs - You gave the standard jobbik policy line (rather than your own) for question 1, but seeing that I've not really seen you explicitly make any anti-semitic statements here, I'll grant that you see no difference between bystander and Ricsi for practical discussion.
I don't have any objections if anyone wants stricter immigration control in their countries, whether for economic immigration or refugees. The question here seems on how best to determine the most appropriate way, considering allof Europe's interests. Having a common border essentially means needing a coordinated policy, including refugee laws, &/or maybe even welfare payments. Here, some of the things you highlighted, glosses over the reasons why Europe finds itself in this position. Though you indicate that multi-culturalism and liberalism are causes, I think history & economics (both external & European) are as important. Also you seem to believe that Europe's infrastructure & competitive capabilities is sustainable without immigrants. I disagree. The competition from Asia, Latin Am, and parts of ME/N.Africa will gradually eliminate several uncompetitive industry sectors in Europe unless there is a corresponding lowering of costs (read lower salary/welfare payouts or more immigrants to sustain the current health/welfare standards), or higher productivity or value (easier said than done). This is my speciality, and here, I know what I am talking about.

One hypocritical part I find, is how you see limits on freedom of speech, intimidation, and the forcible changing of values as oppressive as someone hacking off your head. Yet, as prior 'victims' of an oppresive regime & once the beneficiary of such refuge seeking laws, you now want to deny this to others. And, if Europe (which sees itself as a beacon of global human standards & having a "superior values"- the last quote, courtesy of a commission member) wants to maintain much of its influence in the world, it is going to have to show that it walks the talk. Btw, you’d be quite suited to one particular job in my country. We turn away all refugees at gunpoint (no tears, excuses, etc) & we whip illegals. Of course, that would mean giving up your “European” values.

I'm not denying factors like famine, corrupt leaders, ethnic & religious tensions and conflict cause refugees & immigrants. However, I also see that some policies in Europe may be partly responsible for refugees. If you consider that countries develop through the agriculture, manufacturing, and then service stages, the Common Ag Policy would be a major factor in 'creating' economic refugees in some parts of Africa where subsidies and trade barriers affect their ability to make a sustainable living. A past colonization, or unfair exploitation of resources, and a corresponding skewed economic development may be other factors why Europe may wish to alleviate the economic hardships there, and lower the burden here.

cont..Up to this point, I did not find your views to be racist, even if I recognise that they apply solely to people of colour, is alarmist in nature, & omit many mainstream European values. However, the Algeria/France example does weaken your standpoint slightly in how you perceive events. Algeria's battle was to free itself from political, economic & social oppression. France's was not. Also, it doesn't help that the Frenchman with the loudest voice is a racist, and doesn’t speak for most French (regardless of his last showing). Le Pen doesn't accept black French people, even those who are born there, or who have successfully integrated, & brought France glory eg Desailly, Thuram, Henry etc. "This is not a French team".
Have to run now, I’ll address Islam part later.