The country report stated that human rights problems in Hungary included police use of excessive force against suspects, particularly Roma
---
Yes, Morvai Krisztina as the Human Rights Lawyer has been all over the place with this one
My copy of her reports is though missing the "particularly Roma"-part
Must be some problems in the 'printing-house'

LOOK WHO IS TALKING :-(

I wonder if the slaughter of 1,400 Palestinians found its way in the “”. Probably not, since the US voted down the Goldstone report.
The latest pearl is Israeli soldiers, those heroic Israeli soldiers forcing 8-year-old Palestinian children to open suspicious packages for them. I wonder if anything about that is in the US human rights report. Probably not.
I wonder if anything in the US human rights report about elderly Hungarians routinely robbed and murdered by gypsies. Probably not.
I wonder if anything is in the US human rights report about thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of Iraqi and Afghan civilians murdered by “coalition” troops. Probably not.
Do those bozos know that one of those gypsy murderers was trained in Israel? Probably not.
So much for the US human rights report…

"The country report stated that human rights problems in Hungary included police use of excessive force against suspects, particularly Roma. Additional problems highlighted in the report were government corruption, societal violence against women and children, sexual harassment of women and trafficking in persons."
-----
Sorry guys, but this is fair comment.

There is however a prblem with:
"Extremists increasingly targeted Roma, resulting in the deaths of four Roma and multiple injuries to others," the report said."
-----
The weasel-words in this sentence are "targetting" and "resulting." This is the unfortunate charateristic of the liberal mindest, in which talking about an issue, becomes the targetting of a community, and targetting a community with words has the moral equivalence (and will inevitably lead) to targetting with guns.

We therefore build a perception of reality in which, the spate of Roma murders for example, are not the work of unhinged psychopaths, no. People cease to be free agents responsible for their own actions. They become instead gullible weak creatures easily swayed to violence by rthetoric and certain types of speech. It follows therefore that certain types of speech must be banned for the safety of society.

And you can bet your boots that as a voter you will not be allowed to decide what speech ends up subject to such a restriction. Oh no. It will be decded by those who know better.

The flaw here is the flaw of multi-culturalism. It means that no problem can ever be faced, no reality can ever be grappled with. Because, as Viking so amply demonstrated
http://www.politics.hu/20100304/march-15th-madness-avoided-as-parties-distance-themselves-from-each-other#c308
any discussion of any issue of any minority, that is not automatically framed in terms that say that the minority must by definiton be the victim of everything and responsible for nothing: must amounst to discrimination.

It is extremist "targetting" that is always solely responsible for the "resulting" of the Roma deaths. And so as a result the murders of Lajos Szögi, Marian Cozma and Nóra Horák, dissolve into insignificance. And things like the beating to death of 92-year-old Mrs János Solymosi, and another 87-year-old old lady just the other day, become an international non-issue.

Also quite interesting that the arbitrary arrest and detention without trial of persons doesn't feature in this US Human Rights report. I wonder why? Oh, yeah, that's right...

It is extremist "targetting" that is always solely responsible for the "resulting" of the Roma deaths. And so as a result the murders of Lajos Szögi, Marian Cozma and Nóra Horák, dissolve into insignificance. And things like the beating to death of 92-year-old Mrs János Solymosi, and another 87-year-old old lady just the other day, become an international non-issue.
Also quite interesting that the arbitrary arrest and detention without trial of persons doesn't feature in this US Human Rights report
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 1:08 PM
---
What has the rape and murder of Nóra Horák to do with Roma?
One alleged perpetrator has been arrested and I believe he is still in pre-trial detention then I cannot remember the case has gone to trial yet
For some more info on the Police work performed:
-
http://www.police.hu/sajto/sajtoszoba/orf_090713_01.html
-
Do I need to mention that the arrested person was not Roma?
This is of course not accepted by the 'Real Criminal Experts of Hungary' Jobbik with their sock-puppets here
That is why we are pumped with this info, were clear victims of non-Roma violence, are mixed with victims from either cases where there have been an arrested Roma individual or just accusations about it
.
'bob' gives a very dirty impression today
To screw the facts so much is below his/hers normal level
-
If we look at the finishing statement on
"arbitrary arrest and detention without trial"
it would help with examples, especially after the 'Nóra Horák'-stunt

@Viking
Do you or do you not accept that the Roma are staggeringly overrepresented in terms of criminal behaviour in Hungary, in proportion to their level of the population?

If you do not: then you are a fantasist.


Are you capable of realizing that the above fact should be considered to have, more than an inconsequential bearing on how the Roma are held by the majority Magyar population of Hungary, and that as a result: saying that how the Roma are treated is solely a product of "extremism" is a stupendous misrepresentation and a deliberate lie.

If you are not: then you are a dumbass.

Given the choice bewteen either your stupidity or your horrendously misguided wishful thinking, you will forgive me if sfter this: I fail to see what there is left to discuss!

Given the choice bewteen either your stupidity or your horrendously misguided wishful thinking, you will forgive me if sfter this: I fail to see what there is left to discuss!
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 3:05 PM
----
Maybe your 'Nóra Horák'-stunt as displayed in my post @ 2:51 PM ?
You will not be able to run away from that one also
-
That it is not 'extremism' to kill random individuals and the victims only 'crime' is that they belonged to a despised minority?
You think that is a 'normal' behaviour?
When in history, in civil times, did we have four "unhinged psychopaths" working together as a team to kill innocent Roma, picked by random?
Why are these four "unhinged psychopaths" known to have Neo-Nazi opinions?
Are all people who express Neo-Nazi opinions "unhinged psychopaths"?
.
Of course, as members of a despised minority living in utter misery all over Europe, are over-represented in the crime stats
Anything else would be a wonder, or even a miracle
But of course it is the fault of the Roma, because Good People like yourself would have no problem if you tomorrow got a Roma colleague at work

@Viking
Do you or do you not accept that the Roma are staggeringly overrepresented in terms of criminal behaviour in Hungary, in proportion to their level of the population?
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 3:05 PM
Remembered something from school days, and found this in an old Psych book:
Research shows that if people are presented with information about a majority group and a minority group and these groups are paired with either rare of common traits, people associate the smaller group with the rarer trait (Hamilton & Sherman 1989). If both a minority and majority group have the same negative trait, say a tendency towards criminal behavior, the negative behavior will be more distinctive when paired with the minority group as compared to the majority group. Our cognitive apparatus seems to lead us to make an automatic association between negative behavior and minority group membership (Bordens, Horowitz, pg 132)

That it is not 'extremism' to kill random individuals and the victims only 'crime' is that they belonged to a despised minority?
Viking at March 12, 2010 3:39 PM
-----
So the beating to death of the 87-year-old and 92-year-old Magyar ladies, by Roma is ok because they are not random? They are done to steal what little money they have to gamble it away later?

Jesus, they are right. Youdo hate Magyars. What's wrong with you? A Magyar is killed now almost weekly by Roma. And you are still ranting about the death of four Roma whose killers are safely under lock and key?

Why are you not in the least bit concerned by the little old ladies who are having their heads fucking bashed in, right now, you freak?

Bob, these leftist lunatics always support anything but the majority, he is either some minority or a brain-washed Hungarian....I used to be brain-washed too in this type of thinking....but I woke up and saw the light.....why do you thing they support homosexuals, minorities etc...anything but the norm i.e. majority.

Why are you not in the least bit concerned by the little old ladies who are having their heads fucking bashed in, right now, you freak?
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 4:20 PM

Because he is a freak

AMEN....whoops, made a Christian comment....don't feed me to the lions, politically correct minorities... :)

Here's the link to the report so you can comment on what it actually says:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2009/eur/136035.htm

I find this one of the more disturbing aspects of the report:
__________________________________________________

On May 18, the police trade union Ready for Action (TMRSZ), which represented more than 6,000 officers--approximately 13 percent of the police force--and the extreme nationalist Movement for a Better Hungary (Jobbik) signed a cooperation agreement that generated public controversy. Although the law forbids police officers from joining political parties, Jobbik placed the secretary general of the union fourth on its list of candidates in the June 7 elections for seats in the European Parliament (EP). Jobbik received just less than 15 percent of the votes and won three seats in the EP. The minister of justice and law enforcement and the national police chief criticized the agreement, and the Office of the Prosecutor General initiated legal proceedings against TMRSZ. On June 3, the chief prosecutor ruled that the leaders of the TMRSZ violated the law when they signed the agreement with Jobbik.

__________________________________________________

When a political parties makes an alliance with either a police or military organization a country is headed toward real trouble.

Current examples of such a country: Iran. Historical example: Nazi Germany.

This type of behavior by Jobbick is one of the many reasons I think they are a danger.

Gandi,

Thanks making it clear that at least some Jobbick supporters freely express their bigotry and racism.

I fear that many that are not so forward harbor the same hatreds.

Don't you think the police force has communist and far-left sympathies? During the communist era, the whole Magyar police force was full of goose steping Bolsheviks....

It is oft stated here that Roma are disproportionately involved in crime. YEt I have yet to see a study supporting that assertion.

from the US State Dept report there is some evidence that there is no support for that.

__________________________________________________

Research conducted in 2008 by the HHC and data from the HNP and the National Police College indicated that Roma were three times more likely to be stopped for identification checks than non-Roma, despite data suggesting that Roma are no more likely to be involved in unlawful activities than non-Roma.
__________________________________________________

Is a large part of JObbick's platform based on a widely held prejudice that does not hold water.

The Hungarian media likely disproportionally report Roma crime and therefore the prejudice is reinforced.

Gandi,

You are not in the Communist Era any longer. Most of those police have retired.

What is concerning is that there are many Police who seem to discriminate against Roma.

I would be equally upset by Police forming an alliance with communists, socialists, etc.

My mother and grandparents fled Hungary, in the face of communist accusations against my grandfather that he was a traitor. He was sentenced to hang. I have no love of communism, quite the opposite. I also despise any form of extremism, whether on the right or left. Both led to corruption and abuse.

Gandi,

Thanks making it clear that at least some Jobbick supporters freely express their bigotry and racism.

I fear that many that are not so forward harbor the same hatreds.

Excuse me dear sir, but what was racist or bigoted in my comment? I did not attack a race at all nor mention a specific race. Maybe you should re-read my comment. BTW in all fairness, are you anti-Magyar, anti-white or Christophobic? Nice try though...just like the main stream media, label anyone a "racist" or a "bigot" just because you don't agree with them....For a people who claim open mindedness and tolerance....the left can be the most intolerant...

P.S. I am not a Jobbik supporter, I support Regent Horthy and Royal Hungary/The Kingdom of Hungary=The Real Hungary! :)

Gandi,
You are not in the Communist Era any longer. Most of those police have retired.
Pete H. at March 12, 2010 5:38 PM

What planet and what country are you talking about? Have you ever heard of MSZMP and MSZP? What do you know about Lendvai, the current leader of MSZP?

Big Jim,

The current socialist government is a far far far cry from the communists who ruled Hungary for 40 years.

The current government is very pro capitalism, pro-democracy, etc.

I have spent time in Hungary both before and after the fall of communism. There is no comparison. Modern Hungary bears no resemblance to that era.

So what planet are you living on where you can equate the current parties in power in Hungary to the Marxist communists? You either did not live through that or you have knowledge of history.

@Pete H.
“You are not in the Communist Era any longer. Most of those police have retired. The current socialist government is a far far far cry from the communists who ruled Hungary for 40 years.
The current government is very pro capitalism, pro-democracy, etc.
I have spent time in Hungary both before and after the fall of communism. There is no comparison. Modern Hungary bears no resemblance to that era.”
-----
I don’t wish to be rude: but you have no idea what you are talking about.

Your wishful thinking is not Hungary’s reality. The “resemblance” as you put it, is that to a greater or lesser degree the same cadre of people have continued to be in charge.
Please make a study of this video and you may gain a little understanding of the sheer scale of, to put it nicely, “stability” within the current Hungarian political establishment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s65PIljHzAI

A frequent poster here, by the name of Farkas László, had the other day the answer to your second question. About them being pro-capitalism. These people, I think he said, went from being the managers of state assets, to the owners of state assets. Of course they became pro-free marketeers because that is how they enriched themselves!

It is not a contradiction to say that the same people can hold Communist views one minute, and Capitalist views the next, if their motives for holding these views remains the same, which it has. Namely, their own profit and advancement.

So what planet are you living on where you can equate the current parties in power in Hungary to the Marxist communists?
Pete H. at March 12, 2010 5:53 PM

I just want to throw up my arms and give up in face of such ignorance of what happened in Hungary since gengszterváltás but I will give it one more try. The current MSZP inherited all the properties of MSZMP guaranteeing continuing Communist power in Hungary. If anything, it is more brutal than the last years of Kadar era were. Communists used privatization to steal most of Hungary’s assets for virtually nothing. The current head of MSZP is Ildikó Lendvai, the Botox Woman was the Communist censor of Kadar era.
One could ask if these people were truly Communists in the Marxist sense or just opportunists who enjoyed murdering and torturing during the Rakosi and Kadar era and now use different but equally ruthless methods to exploit and murder Hungarians. Were they really Communists? Was Rakosi really Communist? Was Bauer really Communist? Was Apro really Communist? I do not think so. They were common sadistic murderers and Hungarian haters who served Stalin or whoever for power.

China calls U.S. a hypocrite over human rights
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62B0WQ20100312
China firing back with US human right violations does not make China’s human rights violations acceptable. Two wrongs do not make a right. The Chinese Communists are horrible on human rights and they should be criticized and criticized without letting them hide behind US human rights violations. Condemnation of China for the brutal treatment of Tibetans and Uyghur people must never stop.
Reading the US human rights report being critical of minority issues of European countries leaves one wondering if those people lost their minds. In Europe, the minorities are the perpetrators, not the victims. Gypsy crime in some European countries has reached unmanageable proportions with daily brutal murder of elderly citizens. US human rights reports should concentrate on human rights violations by the US government and Israel. I say Israel because US supports Israel no matter how brutal their treatment of Palestinian. The cluster bombs and white phosphorus bombs Israel used in Gaza were supplied by the US. We should clean our own house first and be an example for respect for human rights, not a lot of hot air.
When governments use such terms as “human rights”, “terrorism” and such, we should watch out for them for their violations of human rights and for their acts of terrorism because their noble sounding communiqués are a good indication that they are up to something evil.
However, we should not ignore human rights violations and condemn it regardless of the perpetrator and the victim. These warning and condemnations should not come from governments but from unbiased private investigative organizations. We should listen to Amnesty International and private American and Israeli human rights organizations, not to any self-serving government using “human rights” for political purposes.

@BJ - "US human rights reports should concentrate on human rights violations by the US government ......"
What human right violations does the US govt commit? Care to explain without bringing in Israel.

What human right violations does the US govt commit? Care to explain without bringing in Israel.
Curious George at March 13, 2010 10:12 AM

Clueless George, do not ask stupid questions unless you want to join the village idiots.

@BJ - Awwww! You don't know, do you? or just too ashamed to say.

@ Curious George

May a defend BJ ? I think he knows f.. all as opposed to being ashamed. Feeling shame is not a problem for him.

He wrote about the French Law on another thread - there are about 15 European countries that passed legislation for denying genocide/holocaust but there are variations in the law - French law is more inclusive.

Hungary's decision to sign the law is making international headlines, but who cares?

You would think BJ and friends would be out there in Hungary going door to door trying to get votes for their party instead of wasting time on this website. Go figure.

BTW, I thought you were already Village Idiot member - thus no need to "join"
At your next meeting could you please nominate me for membership unless my name is already in the roster. Remember, just because I am the only woman it does not mean that I will be responsible for making coffee.

@Olga:

"You would think BJ and friends would be out there in Hungary going door to door trying to get votes for their party instead of wasting time on this website."

I think you got something here!

So probably "BJ and the moronic jobos" (good name for a punk band ?) are really agents provocateurs paid by Mossad to give Jobbik a bad name ...

Anyone (who knows a little bit of history and a minimum of English) reading their comments here will instantly realise what type of rightwing fascist nationalist loonie group they are and will not do business with them ...

Just a few citations again:

It's plain to see that viking is an Israel agent
along with his mossad scum.
Law at January 10, 2010 8:51 AM

we should hang comprador whores like Szabó or Szekeres on the first lámpavas.
Pávaszem at January 16, 2010 10:58 AM

That is enough, n'est ce pas ?

May a defend BJ ? I think he knows f.. all as opposed to being ashamed. Feeling shame is not a problem for him.
olga at March 13, 2010 2:51 PM

Speaking of shame, few are as shameless as to publicly shit on their father’s grave to show her fellow HATERS her commitment to their cause.

@ Wolfi

I think you are the biggest insult to the group because you represent Germany.

Germany is at the forefront of accepting responsibility for the Holocaust; therefore you are somehow responsible.

The present Pope was in the Hitler Youth and he was a German soldier who deserted the army. It is well known the Nazi regime convinced him that the Church had to stand up for truth and freedom and he made a speech in Israel that the Holocaust is not to be forgotten. - I guess he is just another "Bad German"

He also considers Communism "tyrannical, brutal and cruel". No one disagrees.

@Olga - I think there is some administrative delay with getting my Village Idiot membership card. Something to do with my wife not being H-enough. But rest assured, I will nominate you as soon as I go for the 1st meeting.
On the signing part of the law, it seems that all 'my people' are cheering this major international decision by Hungary.
Now they're poring all over the world map to find where Hungary is. I should have just told them it was right at the centre.

@ Curious George

Luckily, you have friends in high places. I showed the powers to be my Hungarian Birth Cert which was so impressive it almost negated the liability of not having a H. wife ( you only lost a couple of points this way)

So the membership is a done deal - it's your turn to return the favour.

Weather is horrible in Toronto,pouring rain and I should be working .

I am thinking of suing Erik.
It's his fault why I can't get anything done and keep coming back to his website. I believe it's a
quasi-criminal offence

A Magyar is killed now almost weekly by Roma. And you are still ranting about the death of four Roma whose killers are safely under lock and key?
Why are you not in the least bit concerned by the little old ladies who are having their heads fucking bashed in, right now, you freak?
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 4:20 PM
---
Every person killed is a loss
The reason for them getting killed are important to analyse
In this 'bob' spreads a lot of lies, like the blatant lie that the rape and murder of Nóra Horák has anything to do with Roma
The suspected killer (non-Roma and a neighbour) has been caught waiting trial in detention
.
Another lie is that only 4 Roma were killed
"you are still ranting about the death of four Roma whose killers are safely under lock and key"
The truth is that between June 2008 and August 3, 2009 a series of physical attacks against Roma resulted in the killing of nine persons and injuries to many others
The suspected killers are in pre-trial detention and have not been convicted yet
This crime constitute a 'Hate-Crime' and is therefore in this report
-
Cont

Cont
-
Yet another one lie is "A Magyar is killed now almost weekly by Roma", in the sense that this has happen during a prolonged time-span.
In addition to mention Nóra Horák (whose accused non-Roma killer is still in pre-trial detention) as victim of 'Roma-on-Magyar' violence, 'bob' also mentions
* Lajos Szögi
He was the teacher killed in the Olaszliszká tragedy in October 2006
The perpetraitors have been convicted and are spending time in jail now
This crime was not regarded bz the Court as a Hate-Crime
.
* Marian Cozma
Romanian handball player killed on 8 February 2009 by Roma that have been caught and awaiting trial
So far this case has not been classified as a Hate-Crime bz the Prosecution
Petre Cozma, Marian Cozma's father, consistently said that not all Roma should be considered guilty for his son's death
He stated,
"Let's not burn a forest for a sapless stub"
-
Maybe that is something 'bob' need to learn, Cristian as he is

Why are you not in the least bit concerned by the little old ladies who are having their heads fucking bashed in, right now, you freak?
bobscountrybunker at March 12, 2010 4:20 PM
---
What evidence do you have that I am not concerned?
That I do no blame Roma for everything under the Sun?
All criminals should be caught and sentenced, but the correct ones
The case with Nóra Horák shows that a witch-hunt on Roma blaming them for all ill is just letting the actual criminals run free
Is that what you want?
.
The poor victims are not to get justice, because you and your racists are so full of finding some Roma to string up in the nearest lamp post?
.
Why do you hate Magyar Victims?
How would the memory of Nóra Horák be honoured and the mind of her relatives be respected by catching the nearest Roma as guilty?
Deliberately letting the guilty criminal free to kill more Magyar girls?
-
(Foot-note: The suspected rapist and killer of Nóra Horák has been arrested and was found out to be a non-Roma. Allegedly he has confessed and there seems to be a lot of technical evidence, that will be displayed in the upcoming trial.
In opposition to all this, the Local Mayor, supported by racists like 'bob', continue claim that Nóra Horák *must* have been killed by Roma)

For all of you criticizing the US for not reporting on their own issues.

They do, just not by the State Dept. - they deal with external affairs.

Look to the Justice Dept and legislative branch for such information.

Yes, it is there.

Now since this a Hungarian news portal, this is the correct forum for debating issues about Hungary. Bringing up what Israel does or the US does is just misdirection and a childish attempt to ignore Hungarian issues..

In addition, this kind of self reflection is good for a nation and is not a sign of maygar hatred. Quite the opposite - those that love their country want it to be better and only through open self-reflection can that be achieved.

Jim and Bob,

You are the ones who lack historical perspective.

While the current socialist government are corrupt - you are not living under the regime of the communists of the 50, 60, 70, 80's.

You are permitted to speak out against them
You can vote them out.
You are not afraid to talk criticize them in front of children or neighbors.

If you are going to through around the term communist at least have historical perspective and respect what that horrible regime was.

Socialists may be bad government, what came before was truly horrid.

And in my opinion if Jobbicks become the governing elite - things would return to horrid again.

@ Pete H

Everything you ever posted I have always agreed with 100 percent.

If God forbid I had a loved one tortured and killed in Hungary during the Rakosi regime and then I would read all these people whining and sniveling about today's "Communists", I would feel my loved one's suffering totally negated.

It's like equating suffering from cancer and "suffering" from a cold.

Your other point is well taken - My Dad told me he used to put his ear against the radio to listen to Radio Free Europe because he feared the neighbours might hear and report him to the Communist Party.

If I stayed in Hungary I would have had to join some Communist Youth group and wear a red handkerchief around my neck. As if I would have had a choice.

With all the challenges facing Hungary, it's still a Paradise compared to the horrific circumstances during the Communist reign of terror.

Moreover, regardless of how Jewish people and Roma are discriminated against in Hungary , it's not comparable to the victims of the Holocaust.

@ Pete H;

1) Actually, this is a Hungarian Political portal and not a "news" portal per say.

2) We do not debate on this site, we argue.

3) How can other countries not be discussed when some of their decisions due effect Hungary, at times directly and others indirectly?

4) As for you suggestion of open reflection... Yes, why doesn't the US start first?

Justasking.

You are not watching US politics. We are actively engaged in debating our human rights issues.

So, we have started. And it is rather childish to say, never mind Hungarian issues, you start first. There is no reason they can't all start at the same time.

In addition, I have no issue discussing US actions that effect Hungary, but I think it is a form of misdirection to bring up US issues to avoid debating about issues in Hungary.

It's like the playground child's retort to criticism - "But Johnny did it first". ell then both Johnny and Istvan should get there asses kicked.

Olga,

Absolutely agree that no form of discrimination compares to the treatment of Roma, homosexuals, and foremost Jews during the holocaust.

That said, treatment of Roma, Jews, an homosexuals in Hungary is still in a very shameful state.

@ Pete H

"That said, treatment of Roma, Jews, an homosexuals in Hungary is still in a very shameful state."

Absolutely, and there is no excuse. Nauseating.

Moreover, the neo-Nazi group refuse to acknowledge (although I am sure they understand) that Holocaust Denial and "Communist Crimes Denial" are two entirely different legal issues.

Frankly, this website is "my dirty little secret" from my family - friends don't live with us so they would not be aware of the websites I read.

They have no idea what's going on with ultra right wing groups in Hungary and they would think I lost my mind reading some of this shit. (Sorry, can't think of a more appropriate word)

I also don't want to explain that there are some really amazing people here who also post. I know that would not make a difference to them and I don't feel justifying my decision to stay around.

It has been established by JOBBIK supporters that there are no votes to be gained by their postings around here. Does not stop them from spewing all this hatred and going over the past as if they got paid by each word they typed.

I keep reminding myself that all the polls show the majority of the voters are non-JOBBIK supporters.

In response to:
Pete H. at March 14, 2010 3:16 PM
Pete H. at March 14, 2010 3:33 PM

You are overly sensitive about calling the Communists their proper name while you keep branding Jobbik racist, nationalistic, Arrow Cross and Nazis that they are not.
MSZP inherited the Communist MSZMP properties because the are the same Communist organization under a new name but still under the same management. They are called Communist because that is what they are.
While Jobbik is very pro-Hungarian, they are not racist, Arrow Cross or Nazis. Today, there is only one country that is racist and Nazi and that is Israel. I bet my kokárda against your kipa that the Gaza Palestinians would love to be treated with as much humanity as the Gypsies of Hungary.
Moreover, here is the reason and justification for bringing in US and Israeli human rights violations when Hungarians are accused of being racists or Nazis. Those who accuse others should have clean hands and they should take care of horrible and ongoing human rights violations in their own countries before they try to lecture others who do not abuse the Gypsies as the Israelis abuse the Palestinians but are victims of out of control Gypsy crime.
The Gaza Palestinians should be so lucky.

In response to:
Pete H. at March 14, 2010 4:18 PM

On what planet you and Olga are living? What treatment or Roma? Older Hungarians live in terror of Roma because Gypsy crime is totally out of control. You can delude yourselves by reading only reports that discuss the misfortunes of Roma but unless you also read about the horrible murder of elderly Hungarians, lynching of a Hungarian teacher by a Gypsy mob and countless other cases where Gypsies attack and rob Hungarians, you are deluding yourselves.
What treatment of Jews? Jews are in control of current government through the Communist MSZP/SZDSZ coalition. They are robbing Hungary blind, stealing everything they can lay their hands on. Do you even bother to read about the flood of arrests of the Communist thieves?
How about the “holocaust law” the Jewish Communist MSZP recently enacted? They would send someone to prison for three years for the holocaust they suffered but not for the holocaust they, the Communists, in Hungary mostly Jewish Communists perpetrated on others. Is that what you call discrimination against Jews?
What treatment of homosexuals? The Magyar Garda was denied permit for their always dignified and disciplined induction of new members on Heroes' Square but the homosexual were permitted to parade their disgusting sexual perversions on the streets of Budapest. The government spent an incredible amount to protect that obscenity, closing down streets and public transportation for them. Is that what you call discrimination against homosexuals?
The Gaza Palestinians should be so lucky.

@ Pete;

I was not talking about whether or not the US is engaging in Human Rights debates, and nor do I care.

I will say that I find your posts cavalier, insensitive and insulting towards the Hungarian people, their issues and their history. I would go so far to say, extremely limited and skewed.

There is not one regular poster on this site, (from both sides of the fence) who is not very well aware of the up hill battle facing Hungary today.

What you fail to understand/realizes, is most of the mess that Hungary is in today, is because of decision/actions made by US and yes others throughout the years.

I will not say that the Hungarian people should not be held accountable for some of their decision/actions or lack there of.

Voting in MSZP for the past 8 years, still boggles my mind.

Jobbick not racist or bigoted?

There are hundreds of videos of Jobbick rallies where their racist attitudes towards Roma and bigotry against homosexuals are openly on display.

Clearly any individual Roma that commit crimes must be punished - but it is your collective judgment of Roma that disgusts me - that is the essence of bigotry, judging an entire group by the actions of a few.

Most murders in Hungary are committed by non-Roma Hungarians - where is your concern about that?

And when have I ever defended the communists? You ass - they are responsible for the exodus of my family from Hungary and the imprisoned and tortured my families friends.

In the 1970's there were only 70,000 Jews in Hungary - yet there where several million communists - You stated most communists were Jews. You base most of your world view on false statistics.

You are living in a manufacture reality - the socialists of today are not engaged in the same policies as the communists of the past - to suggest so it take part in historical revisionism and extreme distortion.

JustAsking,

Oh please. I love Hungary and the Hungarian people. I was brought up with her language and culture and surrounded by Hungarian refuges all my life. You will find few decedents of Hungary who speak of her virtues and encourage others to visit and learn of her history. And this love compels me to wish better for her and also speak of her short-comings.

Are you so insensitive and insecure about Hungary that you can not stand to hear some constructive criticism from outside of Hungary?

Ans nice try and redirecting this debate. This thread started out with a discussion of Hungary's human rights issues.

How is the treatment of Roma's and homosexuals by some Hungarians have anything to do with what the US or other countries did? Absolutely nothing.

For her issues with human rights the US must take full responsibility and so too Hungary must take full responsibility and act accordingly.

In the 1970's there were only 70,000 Jews in Hungary - yet there where several million communists - You stated most communists were Jews. You base most of your world view on false statistics.

You are living in a manufacture reality - the socialists of today are not engaged in the same policies as the communists of the past - to suggest so it take part in historical revisionism and extreme distortion.

Pete H. at March 14, 2010 5:52 PM
-----------
Most Communist leaders were Jews. Deal with it. Stop the victim crap and face up to some responsibility for the horrors that Communism, Jewish Communism meant for Hungarians. At least try to remember that Lendvai, a hard core Jewish Communist of Kadar era is the current leader of MSZP.
You throw in crap like racist, Arrow Cross, Nazi, historical revisionism and extreme distortion while you are lying your head off. Take comfort in knowing that there are a number of like-minded distortions such as Olga, Viking, wolfie and some others on this list who will stand up and applaud any carp you post. Does that make you happy?

For her issues with human rights the US must take full responsibility and so too Hungary must take full responsibility and act accordingly.
Pete H. at March 14, 2010 6:02 PM
------
How about Israel? Who are treated worse, the Gypsies of Hungary or the Gaza Palestinians?
Have you seen what a Palestinian child looks like after burned with white phosphorus? How about the human rights of that child?

Kis Jim,

I take comfort in watching your argument digress into nonsense.

Once again I have never defended the crimes of past communists or the current socialists.

My revulsion with the Jobbick's does not in any way imply I support the MSZP.

What we were discussing here was the rights issues in Hungary. Your continue to try and distract with that by ranting about other issues and pointing fingers at others. That is a rather childish rehtorical tool that works well with other children.

@Viking ’Romanian handball player killed on 8 February 2009 by Roma that have been caught and awaiting trial
So far this case has not been classified as a Hate-Crime bz the Prosecution
Petre Cozma, Marian Cozma's’
I suggest you investigate further the weekend of the Roma demonstration when
the handball player was killed in a Veszprém nightclub. Many other gypsy crimes
where perpetrated in Siofok and Enying.
My three nearest neighbours have been the victims of gypsy crime.
The local Church organist has had property vandalized along with vegetables and livestock taken.
It is a fact that many gypsies are poorly educated and therefore are unable to find work.
They thieve to make ends meet. This is a fact.
Not a figment of imagination that can be assigned to a fanatic, and/or racist.
Defending the indefensible is a crime in itself.

@ Pete;

Yes, I can feel the love spilling out of you towards the Hungarians, I dare say that I am quite humbled by the experience.

" Insensitive and insecure about constructive criticism towards Hungary" Never. And if your were to provide constructive criticism, I would listen, but, you don't.

You are what you claim to be, another dumb arrogant America talking out of his ass.

@ BJ

So typical of your arguments: "Have you seen what a Palestinian child looks like after burned with white phosphorus? How about the human rights of that child?"

Have I seen the children's faces whowere exploited for child pornography all over the world? NO
Have I seen fist hand about Rwanda's genocide?: NO
Have I seen Women stoned to death in Arab countries? No
Have I seen the body parts of the victims of 9/11? No

Would you like me to list more horrific abuses all over the world that I have not seen?

SO WTF does Palestine have to do with Hungary? The Jewish people I know do not support Israel's foreign policy.

I don't know any Muslims. My son goes to University is the US and has Muslim friends - none of them support Hamas or any form of terrorism. They are all in the same post-grad degree program that if they choose to, they can champion Human Rights all over the world. Hope they will do that.

What does all this prove in terms of present day politics? Absolutely nothing.

Why don't you concentrate on Hungary instead of going off into tangents.

How does it make you feel that your views are the views of the minority in Hungary and all over the Western world? Thank God

They thieve to make ends meet. This is a fact.
Not a figment of imagination that can be assigned to a fanatic, and/or racist.
Defending the indefensible is a crime in itself.
Advocate at March 14, 2010 6:25 PM
---
No one is questioning that some Roma steal things
I personally knew a gang of professional thieves that went to Austria to steal 94-95
None of them were Roma
They did it because it fitted their lifestyle (some drugs and much being tough guys)
I even had to call an Austrian Lawyer after one of them (married to one of our waitresses) got arrested in Austria
He was an expert in 'opening locks'
He was severely beaten by the Austrian Police and during the 2 years he had to spend in Austrian prison. Hungarians are not so popular there
Today I think he is struggling on to earn money but no one want to employ him officially, due to his criminal record, so only black jobs with no security at all is available for him
And he is not Roma
-
The problem with Jobbik is that they support the tendencies that *only* Roma are responsible for all bad things, and *all* Roma are bad
This is direct counter-productive to solve crime and give the victims of crime some justice
The *very* clear example on that is the repeated claim that Nóra Horák was killed by a Roma
Obviously she was not, but this does not stop racists megaphones like 'bob' repeating these claims, because 'it fits the picture'
But it does not fit the reality
We live in the reality

@ Viking;

Okay, I'm gonna play your game.

I want to see proof where Jobbik has ever supported, said, written or mumbled

" *Only* Roma's are responsible for for all bad things and *all* Roma's are bad"?

JustAsking,

Thankfully most Hungarians don't hold your büdös values. Sorry you can't feel my love, my love of Hungarians is obviously not directed at all Hungarians. I find hardcore Jobbick supporters and Hungarian skinheads revolting.

What you think of me is of no consequence. I have many Hungarian friends and family who respect my ideas and are happy to know a son of a Hungarian refugee who still has such a deep interest in his mother's homeland.

What we were discussing here was the rights issues in Hungary. Your continue to try and distract with that by ranting about other issues and pointing fingers at others. That is a rather childish rehtorical tool that works well with other children.
Pete H. at March 14, 2010 6:24 PM
-----
You are unable to face the truth that those who routinely murder others in large numbers, torture others with absolutely no respect for other human beings should shut their face up and not try to criticize others who have not done any of those things.
Both the US and Israeli governments are guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity. They got no business lecturing anyone.

@ Pete;
Yes, I can feel the love spilling out of you towards the Hungarians, I dare say that I am quite humbled by the experience.
justasking at March 14, 2010 6:36 PM
------
He loves us almost as much as körmös Bauer did.

I want to see proof where Jobbik has ever supported, said, written or mumbled

" *Only* Roma's are responsible for for all bad things and *all* Roma's are bad"?

justasking at March 14, 2010 6:54 PM
---
Ask 'bob', he is their 'Roma and Islam'-expert
He is the one that continue to repeat that Nóra Horák was killed by a Roma
If you check my statement I write:
"The problem with Jobbik is that they support the tendencies that *only* Roma are responsible for all bad things, and *all* Roma are bad"
.
In my world speaking about "gypsycrime" as something *only* Roma do (and *all* Roma are just waiting to perform), is typical Racial Profiling
.
Treating an ethnic group as a monolithic block is just that
How do you reference to the Canadian First Nation?
Do you have an expression 'indiancrime', 'nativecrime' in Canada?

büdös pete: Thankfully most Hungarians don't hold your büdös values.

It is funny that you would use the word büdös. Hungarians used the expression büdös zsidó and the Jews the expression büdös magyar. I am not saying that these were expressions of endearment but they were also results of different diets. Hungarians eat pork and pork products while Jews ate geese and ducks. It gave Hungarians and Jews different body odors. People of same diet did not detect their odor but they detected the odor of those of different diet.
The problem with büdös is that those who are at home have a right to notice the odor of intruders while the intruders should get the fuck out if they do not like the natives’ odor.
It goes for everything else...

@olga: So typical of your arguments: "Have you seen what a Palestinian child looks like after burned with white phosphorus? How about the human rights of that child?"
olga at March 14, 2010 6:42 PM
------------------
So typical of you to kiss up to these murderers and defend them no matter what. Pete comes here pontificating about Gypsies. Let him answer for the Palestinian children Israelis murder by the hundreds. You do not have to be so eager to defend every horrible thing they do. Let him wiggle his way out of it. They do it so much better than anyone else..

@ Pete;

Listen here you tiny little man. You obviously were not listening when your Mother was teaching you, for if you did, you would know that your Hungarian friends and family would not hold the same views as you.

They are humouring you and your just too stupid to realise it. Hungarians tend not to enter in Political "discussions" with those who accuse their people of being bigots, racist and insisting that they "openly reflect" over a situation that that was in fact shunted to this level by their own MSZP Government.

As for you love towards Hungary, I'm sure you are sincere. It is your lack of Hungarian history that surprises me. That and your willingness to believe so little of the people that you are apart of.

So stop acting like a stupid American and start acting like a Hungarian American and do your homework.

If your Mother is still alive, I suggest that you sit down and let her tell you what she experienced. Sit back, don't interrupt and actually listen to what she is both saying and not saying. I think you will be very surprised in dead.

Is the sky really falling in Hungary? Is crime out of control as the Jobbicks would suggest? Or are a few cases (that are despicable and inexcusable) of Roma crime over reported and used to create a narrative of a murderous race and a country with a crime problem spiraling out of control?

Here are the facts:

While in 1994 there were 439 deaths and 514 in both 1997 and 1999, by 2003 the number was down to 228, in 2004 209, in 2005 164, and in 2007 154.

The general trend is downward.

The Hungarian population is about 10,000,000. So the murder rate in 2007 was about, 0.00154%.

Let's pretend all 154 murders were committed by some of the 600,000 Roma in Hungary and that all of the murders were committed by Roma towards non-Roma. The percentage of Roma who kill non-Roma would then be 0.025%. The number is obviously lower as there are plenty of non-Roma who commit murder.

Yet, Jobbick supporters would have believe we need fear the entire Roma community.

Countries with much higher murder rates where people feel no need to form a Garda: (United States, Poland, United Kingdom, Scotland, Canada).

What about Roma crime - hard to find any real data since crime statistics are not complied by race. So, the perception that murder perpetuated by Roma is on the rise is just that a perception. Yet the Jobbicks base a large part of their platform on just this assertion.

Jobbick are using fear of an ethnic minority to bolster their political standing. That is despicable.

@ Big Jim

Re:"So typical of you to kiss up to these murderers and defend them no matter what."

I am sorry - which murderers I am kissing up to?

If you are talking about the horrific abuse children are all over the world are experiencing, do you think I differentiate between the perpetrators? Should I believe that all children
are created equal but some children are created more equal than others? ( Animal Farm philosophy the anti-Communist book)

I am astounded at your deliberately confusing question (so like my good friend Pavaszem) so I want to make sure which murderers you are referring to and please tie those murderers to today's Hungary.

BTW, I mentioned before that heard about Krisztina Morvai in 2005 and was amazed and thrilled how a Hungarian lawyer devoted her time to champion Palestinian Human Rights issues. Then I "met" her a few years later aligned with JOBBIK and trampling on Jewish and Roma Human Rights issues.

I don't think a Human Rights champion gets to pick and choose between "Humans" according to race and religion. Kind of defeats the purpose.

@ Viking;

No, we will be leaving Bobby out of this and just focusing on what WE write.

I am well aware of what you wrote about Jobbiks belief of "all" and "only" regarding Roma's and here in lies the problem.

They don't think that way, you think they think that way. You want them to think that way. You assume they think that way. Need I go on?

I can only imagine what goes on in you world let alone you head.

The label "gypsiecrime" is anything but racial profiling. It is a politically incorrect word of a real situation that is occurring in Hungary. How would you like see it referred to as?

How do I reference the Canadian First Nations people? I refer to them as Indians. But I fail to see what they have to do with the Roma situation in Hungary.

You see, our Native Indians, were in Canada first and through various deeds, we own them for how we treated them and what we did to them.

BUT, the Roma's are not native to Hungary, so why should they the Hungarians own them anything?

I think that you would be surprised about the crimes in Canada. You don't often hear it being from this group. Nowadays, the crimes that you hear about, the gang crimes, the violent crimes are usually from immigrants to Canada IE: Asian gangs, East Indian gangs etc.

My dear JustAsking,

Are you always in the habit of putting words in peoples mouths? Perhaps such a lame rhetorical technique must have fooled some others in the past. When my opponents launch into such tactics, I know I have touched a nerve.

I have never accused Hungarians as a whole people of being bigots, racists, etc. Thankfully it just a small and vocal percent. Jobbicks support hovers only around 13% and I have meet very few with your extreme views..

Having read dozens of books on Hungarian history and discussed it with Hungarian family and friends, I am well aware of your ignorance of Hungarian history.

And believe me my Hungarian friends and family are anything but polite when we discuss politics , the debates are expressive, heated, and delightefully Hungarian in nature.

@ Pete;

You should have just stopped after your first paragraph, for that is probably the most sense that you have made so far.

JOBBIK, JOBBIK, JOBBIK

If you are going to talk about them while knowing shit about them, at least have the decency to spell their name right.

@ Pete;

No, I am not in the habit of putting words in peoples mouth, (I do admit to though I often see your foot in that area) I have a habit of throwing it back in their faces though.

And if all your Hungarian friends and family members all share you view, how could you possibly have "heated" discussions? :))

@ justasking

I am not sure if Pete H read enough of your postings to realize you are "not one of them" yet. Wanting to regain pre-Trianon borders is not enough . You have to start ranting and raving against minorities and so far you have been a dismal failure at that.

What exactly did Pete H post that is so objectionable to you or that proves he is anti-Hungarian?

The fact is he is in the USA, so are BJ/Mark/Tom etc. Have you ever wondered why it was ok for you to have opinions from Canada but it's less than welcome from me? Let's get real. How exactly am I more "foreign" than you?

I know you can be very reasonable and fair, so please don't explain the meaning of Pete's postings, rather please post a couple of his sentences (cut and paste) so I can at least see some evidence of what you mean.

Hopefully the examples will be directly related to Hungary.

Big Jim,

You write of me:

"He loves us almost as much as körmös Bauer did."

You are a fucking piece of shit! You think I don't know who that was?

Did you not read where I wrote that my family was forced from Hungary by communists. That family friends were tortured by AVO?

You are truly a lowlife scum to compare someone with my family history to a murderous AVO man.

What you did was reveal to others who read this forum just how much of a lowlife you are.

JustAsking has no real argument regarding my discussion of crime statistics, so he instead focuses a trivial spelling error.

Don't have anything intelligent to add do you?

Again you prove you lack of rhetorical skills and always fall back on trivial issues.

@ Justasking and Pete H

I am not sure how you arrive at crime stats in Canada since we are not allowed to keep them

I can tell you that without any statistics, I get the impression that most horrific crimes against women and children (as in serial rapists and murderers, cutting up bodies etc) are committed by white males who were not known to suffer from psychiatric disorders. So what does that tell us about white males? Nothing.

Pete H

Justasking is a female from Western Canada while I am a female from Toronto. Regardless of some of her postings,, she has never written anything that I can recall that could be in any way construed as "hate speech" ( as in inciting violence against a minority group.)

Both the US and Israeli governments are guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity. They got no business lecturing anyone.
BIG JIM at March 14, 2010 7:00 PM
----
But 'mark', everyone knows you are living in the US
Have you become an 'unpatriotic' US-citizen now?

Olga,

Perhaps it is not permitted to keep crime stats by race in Canada. But, you can find numerous Canadian government websites that report overall crime stats.

I have never accused JustAsking of using "Hate Speech", but I have read bigoted remarks from her.

Rather comical to hear that all of these folks accusing me of hating Hungary are not even Hungarian nationals and yet denigrate me for my commenting as a United States citizen.

@ Olga:

Yet? Nice touch.

As for me posting from Canada being more welcome then yours, I don't think they are. I get the same amount of lamb basting as you do.Besides, last time I checked, this was not a "members only" club, so who care what some people may think! Freedom of Speech blah, blah, blah!

As for the objectionable things that Pete has been posting, I would say more like his willingness to throw Hungary under a bus without really fully understanding the situation in Hungary.

The assumptions are another bone of contention for me. Assuming that the Magyar have no base for resentment/anger towards some members of the Roma community for a situation that is spiraling out of control, assuming how Jews and gays are treated and believing the negative because of an article that he may have come across. Assuming that I know nothing of the experience of some in 56 and their subsequent off springs. Assuming that I am a skin head and ultra right wing because I happen to be patriotic towards Hungary and yes support Jobbik. Assuming that I am a HIM and not a HER.

And YOU assuming that I believe anybody who has something negative to say about Hungary is anti-Hungarian

As for the cut and paste part, if I knew how to do that, do you think that I would be writing out comments that I wish to respond too?

But finally, I am trying to figure out what Hungary ever did to deserve being considered guilty until proven innocent and not the other way around all the time.

Justasking,

"As for the objectionable things that Pete has been posting, I would say more like his willingness to throw Hungary under a bus without really fully understanding the situation in Hungary."

What a gross exaggeration. So, by criticizing Jobbik (12% support) and those few that are bigoted and racist I have thrown all of Hungary under a bus. I get the feeling you hardly read a word I've said.

Not one thing you posted about me in your comment to Olga shows I am anti-Hungarian. It simply shows we have different view towards the issue of Roma, homosexuals, Jews, and Jobbik.

When you resent and label a whole race of people for the actions of a few - that is the very definition of bigotry.

As far as basing my views on "an article" - how about hundreds of articles and conversations, and dozens of books. Among the conversations includes many about Jews in Hungary with an expat Hungarian scholar who specializes in Jewish history and issues in Hungary.

You remind me of rightwingers in the US I sometimes debate (I am an equal opportunity social critic). They equate any leftist critique of the US as anti-patriotic. My view of patriotism is very different - it more like a parent who is concerned about their child growing up to be their best. That can only be done by working on the child's (country's) faults.

our Native Indians, were in Canada first and through various deeds, we own them for how we treated them and what we did to them.
BUT, the Roma's are not native to Hungary, so why should they the Hungarians own them anything?
justasking at March 14, 2010 7:58 PM
---
Well, do you not show your own racial bigotry here?
Q: "BUT, the Roma's are not native to Hungary, so why should they the Hungarians own them anything?"
=
A: Romani people first appeared in Hungary in the 14th and 15th centuries, fleeing the conquering Turks in the Balkans, so they have lived in Hungary for 600-700 years, but they are still not equal citizens, right?
.
How long does a minority need to live in Hungary before they can be regarded as equal citizens in *your* world?
.
The Roma continue to be among the poorest in the country. Their birth rates are much higher and their average expected life span is significantly lower than the national average, so in what way do you think "the Hungarians own them anything"?
And they are not "Hungarians" right?
.
600 years, that is about 15-20 generations
White folks, like yourself, started to pester the Canadian Aboriginal people in the late 15th century, then had already the Roma been in Hungary for more than 150 years, but that does not count of course, right?

I am well aware of what you wrote about Jobbiks belief of "all" and "only" regarding Roma's and here in lies the problem.
They don't think that way, you think they think that way. You want them to think that way. You assume they think that way. Need I go on?
...
The label "gypsiecrime" is anything but racial profiling
justasking at March 14, 2010 7:58 PM
-
Q: "The label "gypsiecrime" is anything but racial profiling"
=
A: Go to kuruc-info and check under their label "Cigánybűnözés" and tell us non-believers how this is not 'Racial Profiling'?
.
Do you have that in Canada on "Asian Crime"?
That would not be called 'racist'?
.
Jobbik had a web-site a few years ago called ciganybunozes.com
Not officially of course, but I know some of the guys setting it up
It was a test-balloon for Jobbik how far they could go and therefore it was made under extra security with an anonymous server in the US to stop from being indited
This was before Magyar Garda, probably 2005
The website seems defunct now
.
Of course you will never see any statement from Jobbik incrimenating themselves, they are too smart for that, but you read enough Hungarian to understand when Jobbik is posting material on kuruc-info, including open letters to kuruc from the Jobbik Press Officer, where he speak about that Kuruc-Budahazy-Jobbik are one
If you think Kuruc reflects reality and is not a web-site for peddling fascist and racist ideas, well then we do read different manuals on humanity and passion for other people

Pete H

Re: "Rather comical to hear that all of these folks accusing me of hating Hungary are not even Hungarian nationals and yet denigrate me for my commenting as a United States citizen."

Website rules: If you write anything that does not agree with the ultra right wing agenda, you become the enemy of Hungary. If you do agree, your opinions are welcome. Nationality and birthplace are unimportant.

I know that Canada’s crime statistics show that violent crimes are overwhelmingly committed by males between the ages of 15 – 35, then the graph goes steadily downwards. By 65 years of age, there is a dramatic decrease. I propose every male between 15 and 35 (except for my son of course) ought to be given regular doses of estrogen to curb violent crime

@ justasking

Re: “Yet? Nice touch.” – I am a Plan “B” person and cover my butt for your future postings. I could say it meant “ I don’t support the Canadian Conservatives “yet” “ but we both know that would be a wiggle my way out of what I wrote situation..

Re:" what Hungary ever did to deserve being considered guilty until proven innocent and not the other way around all the time.”

If you don’t want to show an example of Pete throwing Hungary under the busy how about an example of Hungary being considered guilty until proven innocent. Who considered Hungary “ guilty “ and guilty of what?

Canada is not representd by skin heads and we are not guilty of an

Pete and justasking - cont

anything because of Ernst Zundel, his hate mongering nor are we responsible for his followers.

I hope you did not mean that Hungary is judged by the minority Jobbik or the MG – God forbid.

I also hope that female lawyers who champion Human Rights are not judged by the actions of Krisztina Morvai.

@ Pete;
Look, you want to believe that I said you throw Hungary under a bus because of a a shit load of incorrect comments about Jobbik, go ahead and fill your boots!
As for your stellar knowledge about the issues in Hungary courtesy of your Ace in the Hole expat, well then, I stand corrected. I mean, how can anybody compete with a man and a scholar at that, who specializes in Jewish history! Too bad he didn't specialize in Hungarian History :))
I do admit, that I found your last 2 sentences, both interesting and revealing. " As a concerned parent, working on a child's fault" Wow! You see, this just confirms that not only do you know shit about Hungary and Hungarians; but, parenting as well. Any parent worth their salt, will tell you that the only fault a child posses, are the ones that they have acquired from their parent(s), &/or their environment. A child coming from the nest of loving and attentive parent(s) could stray if they were constantly surrounded by an environment of either be a victim or victimize.

@ Viking;
You know, at times I really get tired of doing this dance with you. Now, where did I say that Roma's were not equal citizens? And who was the one comparing apples (Native Indians) to oranges (Gypsies)? As for my comment of "owing" the Roma's anything, I stand by that. Did the Magyars import Gypsies for slavery? Did the Magyar kick the Roma's off their own land and stick them on reserves?

Con't

@ Viking part 2;

So I have to ask, why should the Roma's be treated any different from other minority groups in Hungary?

But, I would like to have your opinion on this. What are their (Roma's) responsibility in all of this? How much have they contributed to the Hungarian economy compared to what they have gained from it?

And just one last question...How many Roma's do you employ at your restaurant?

As far as Kuruc is concerned, like I said before, we comment on what you and I write.

I did find interesting though, your comment about manuals on Humanity and Passion for Other People. Really? How positively clinical.

I would however like to reserve a table at your restaurant so that we may pour over these elusive manuals. Oh, and I also have a tuque for you from the Olympics. Where do I call?

@ Olga;

Plans are a good thing; but, only to "B"? I'm disappointed, hell mine go all the way to "G". I'm a firm believer of wiggle room for wiggle room is good :))

As for your example of Hungary considered "guilty until proven innocent"...Why Trianon of course.

@ Viking;

I was wondering why you kept on saying "own" when referring to my post. It was a typo. It should have read " owe".

I truly am of the belief that people can not be owned.

Well, maybe not owned completely. We all have a price I suppose, I would like to believe that mine would be quite high :))) It would have to depend on the circumstance though...or maybe not !

You are a fucking piece of shit! You think I don't know who that was?
Pete H. at March 14, 2010 8:22 PM

You have been spitting your anti-Hungarian hate in every one of your posts. Hard not to notice your körmös bauer love of Hungarians. The truth bothers you, doesn’t it?

@ Viking part 2;
So I have to ask, why should the Roma's be treated any different from other minority groups in Hungary?
justasking at March 15, 2010 5:09 AM
----
Q: "why should the Roma's be treated any different from other minority groups in Hungary?"
This is the main point - and they should be treated as good as the other 12 official minorities in Hungary
If we quote from the report:
"The public education system continued to provide inadequate instruction for minorities in their own languages. Romani language schoolbooks and qualified teachers were in short supply
Segregation of Romani schoolchildren remained a problem. NGOs and government officials estimated that 20 percent of Romani children were placed without cause in remedial classes for children with mental disabilities, effectively segregating them from other students
Schools with a majority of Romani students employed simplified teaching curricula, were generally less well equipped, and were in significantly worse physical condition than those with non-Roma majorities"
(http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2009/eur/136035.htm)
-
Back to the question of the education system for Canadian minorities, including the Aboriginals
Do they end up in large number in Special Classes for the Idiots (because that is how they are seen and treated)?
.
What future will such a child have?
.
We do not discuss children who need special attention, we discuss children who are put there without a proper evaluation, normal segregation

How much have they contributed to the Hungarian economy compared to what they have gained from it?
justasking at March 15, 2010 5:09 AM
----
How can we judge a total minority on your question?
What about mixed children, should they be on the bad or good side in this equation?
Are the Canadian Aboriginals (1st Nation) really an asset to Canada?
In what way?
Is not alcoholism and other drug use rampant in those groups?
How much do they pay tax?
How much do they receive in welfare?
Are not you 'White Canadians' sponsoring those lazy and drunk Indians?
And what if so was the case?
Should you exterminate your Indians, or what?
-
You tell me;
1) How do you define the Roma (are they 200.000 or a million?)
.
2) What stats would you use to prove/not prove your question, especially given the obvious problem counting who is a Roma or not?
.
3) Personally I think it lives maybe 150-200.000 Roma in different 'shanty-towns' in mainly Eastern Hungary
If you go over the border to Romania, you will find more Roma in even worse situations
As I understand many of these Roma are either registered as Hungarians, or consider themselves Hungarians and the border is open so it is just for them to take a tour around Hungary
-
These few 100.000 really poor Roma are the ones every one are speaking about, the rest of maybe 1 million (some claim 2) are rather assimilated into the Hungarian society, but they are being used to prove the 'demographic time-bomb' (one of 'bob's arguments)

And just one last question...How many Roma's do you employ at your restaurant?
justasking at March 15, 2010 5:09 AM
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between 7.5% and 10% depending on fluctuation in number of staff
.
The Roma constitute between 2-11%, the lower figure is the official, the higher what 'Pav' and others use
.
On the other hand the higher number includes obviously a lot of people who have assimilated into the Hungarian society so much that they regard themselves not as Roma any more.
But for our 'bloodline' interpreters, they will always be Roma

@ Viking;

Lets talk about the other 11 minorities in Hungary. Have they integrated into Hungarian society? What do they consider themselves as IE: Schwab or Schwab Hungarian? Are there similar issues with other minorities in Hungary to that of Roma?

Look, You don't think that I have not witnessed first hand, the living conditions some of the Roma are in? I was stunned seeing such poverty; but, what was worse, watching these tiny little kids running around in all that filth. I'm not exaggerating when I say I was paralyzed in shock.

I agree something has to be done, and it should have been done yesterday. I have said this before on this site and I will say it again, both parties (Roma and Hungary Government) have failed each other. They are equally guilty and should be equally responsible for change.

Now that we have gotten that out of the way, I am going to address the points that you have made.

Public School System (PSS): The official language in Hungary is Hungarian and in that language the curriculum should be taught. It is not the responsibility of the PSS, to provide each minority instruction in their own language. That is not reasonable accommodation.

In Canada we have 2 official languages French and English, and yes you can attend school in either language across Canada. As for our Native students, yes they are taught the curriculum in their Native tongue if they choose, be it Cree or Inuit or whatever, ON THEIR RESERVES and not in the PSS.

@ Viking con't;
Your point of segregating these children bothers me as well, especially how it is being handled, or not in this case. 14 year old held back and placed in classes with 9-10 year old, is just plain criminal. I can only imagine the humiliation those children would be experiencing.
But, lets see what some of the reasons I have been told for the "need". Again keeping in mind both sides bar responsibility. Roma children not being fully fluent in Hungarian. Not attending school on a regular/consistent basis (not the kids fault, but the parents in large part), intimidation towards fellow students and teachers, from both sides.
As for the short supply of qualified teachers, one could argue the same case in Canada. As for deliberate mislabeling of children and placement into inappropriate classes. That truly sickens me for it just continues the cycle of resentment, anger and a whole bunch of other stuff that only Cinaed is qualified to add.
As for the situation of aboriginal children in our curriculum, placed in special classes, I don't know, but, I'm sure it is right up there, I have no doubt.
As for the question of the possible burden on the Hungarian tax payer from a minority group, I think is legit. You can not just keep throwing money at people and expect them to suddenly become independent. You have to break this cycle of dependence, that in large part, was created by the Hungarian Government, for now we see the results. Anger and resentment from both sides.

@ Justasking

Take a look at Eva Balogh's article dated March 7th

http://esbalogh.typepad.com/hungarianspectrum/2010/03/the-hungarian-liberal-party-no-more.html

Sounded good to me but it seems the "Liberals" objected. I understand the objection but I think it's wrong.

Drastic problems require drastic measures and it would benefit kids.

@Viking;

Are the Canadian Indians an asset to Canada you asked. I would like to think that we all are an asset to the country that we live in. There is a large issue with alcohol and drugs in the Native community, especially on the reserves. As for them paying taxes, yup just like any other Canadian; but, they are exempt from paying tax if they work and live on the reserve.

I do believe we owe our Indians assistance for we created in most part the situation that they find themselves in today. We are the ones who put them on reserves in the first place. But what is the Roma communities excuse? Were they in Hungary first? Were they kicked off land and placed onto reserves? Is this an issue exclusive only to Hungary? Is there a possible pattern?

As for how would I define a Roma? If you say to me your a Roma, then your a Roma. Why are you asking me? I'm not denying who is who, so what stats would I require to prove to you and what exactly am I suppose to prove?

I never said that all Roma's are the problem, you keep trying to tell me that is what I am saying. I'm not. I do however acknowledge that there is a huge mess that needs to be straightened out ASAP.

As for you employing 7.5-10% Roma, good. Now in what capacity?

As I said before, I am for integration and not assimilation. I would be happy if they were to retain their culture/language/traditions, practise it, contribute positively to the Hungarian society as Roma Hungarians

@ Olga;

I have to admit, months ago when I first discovered Politics, hers(Eva) was another site that my google search discovered.

I read one article from her and she royally pissed me off and I have never gone back since.

I have to admit, I really liked that article that you provided because it is true.

That to me, was a perfect example of situation being turned into a political one, when it never should have been.

@ justasking

Vandorlo told me about her blogs and I really enjoy reading them. The comments are as interesting as her blogs

Did you know her BA is from the University of Ottawa? Just trivia, but it means she lived here and her opinions must be influenced by her experiences by the "Canadian way of life"

She moved to the USA and stayed so thus she "likes them better" - Oh well, no one is perfect.

One thing in Erik’s favor is that he tolerates opposing opinions, unlike that old battle horse that kicks people off her list just as soon as they express an opinion not in line with her distortion of everything, including Hungarian politics and history.

I have visted maybe a hundred villages and more
in the provinces. There is no work. People move away in search of finding employment. Many Roma families move into the villages and are faced
with the same problem: finding work. They have a double-whammy because many of them do not have proper education and resort to petty crime to survive.
I have spoken with men and women from gypsy families that have found work in the cities.
They distance themselves from their families and heritage.
The unemployment problem in provincial Hungary is dire.
I cannot see how things are going to improve.
Large tracts of land go unworked and houses remain empty because the young do not see agriculture as a way of earning a living.
Sad but true.

The US has turned the ideas of human rights, democracy and freedom into obscene jokes. They pull something like this: "According to the Times of London, US-led troops dragged innocent children from their beds and shot them during a nighttime raid. Afghan government investigators said the eight students were aged from eleven to seventeen, all but one of them from the same family. The headmaster of the local school said seven of the children were handcuffed and then executed. A preliminary investigation by the United Nations reinforced Afghan claims that most of the dead were schoolboys." http://bit.ly/7K16LV and then turn around and publish a 'human rights report.' Nuts. A French journalist observed US Special Forces in Afghanistan fill tractor trailers with people, lead the exhaust fumes into the freight area and then unload the dozens of dead bodies. These are the people that criticize us for saying nasty things about Gypsies when they kill our parents. How totally insane!

@bobscountrybunker: "any discussion of any issue of any minority, that is not automatically framed in terms that say that the minority must by definition be the victim of everything and responsible for nothing: must amount to discrimination." Except the white minority in South Africa eating shit and dying. The Olga types are screaming bloody murder and do their worst to reverse the political asylums granted to white South Africans and have them deported back into the clutches of the marauding Kaffers. I bet their attitude would be similar to any white minority being exterminated. What do you call that? Self hating whites? Morons preaching suicide?

@Pete H: "Jobbick" Please try to at least get the spelling right, thank you... Do you know Hungarian, Pete? "Most murders in Hungary are committed by non-Roma Hungarians" How do you know? It's illegal to collect that kind of data. Are you a Gypsy yourself, Pete? "In the 1970's there were only 70,000 Jews in Hungary" Again, how would you know? We're not allowed to count Kikes either. Are you Jewish, Pete? "socialists of today are not engaged in the same policies as the communists of the past" Of course not. And, if Quisling were alive today he'd be pro American. "take part in historical revisionism…" Ah Jeez, you're right, we don't want to hear about all those declassified documents: we could go to prison for just mentioning them, right?

@macaca: "What human right violations does the US govt commit?" Are you nuts? Haven't you heard of Abu Ghraib http://bit.ly/9REPAJ the Guantánamo concentration camp,

@macaca, continued: Rendition Airway http://www.shannonwatch.org [+] http://bit.ly/9U1YMe or the ongoing crimes against humanity in Afghanistan? "Care to explain without bringing in Israel" Yeah, let's talk about Stalin's crimes without mentioning the NKVD or Gulag... Asshole.

"... have them deported back into the clutches of the marauding Kaffers."

Pervy pavian is back! Rejoice!

In his own words: "Asshole"

That's good that people are able to take the loan moreover, it opens up completely new opportunities.

Violence against Roma. What a joke. Magyar Garda dress up and march and nothing else. Roma are a problem. When they go to school and get educated only then will they be able to find some kind of work.
Until then they will continue to steal your chickens, pigs, furniture, and anything that looks remotely valuable.
Dogs bark at the moon, pigs wallow in the mud,
the church stands empty, and people pass by without speaking. The country rolls along on a wave of corruption scandals. Nobody pays tax because they can't afford it. The EU and IMF have got you by the short and curlies.
The forint continues to be manipulated and there is no clear indication that Fidesz and/or Jobbik are going to make the slightest difference in improving the situation... Oh dear!