People wearing the uniforms of the outlawed paramilitary Hungarian Guard prevented several Roma residents of Hajduhadhaz (NE) from entering a rally by radical nationalist party Jobbik in the town on Sunday, the head of the local Roma civil organisation told MTI.
About ten Roma wanted to go to the rally, where Jobbik’s MEP Csanad Szegedi and other local party representatives were to speak, said Zsolt Bator Lakatos. The representatives of the local Roma organisation wanted to ask at the rally what ideas the party had for such a town in which a large number of residents are Roma, he added.
The men dressed in Hungarian Guard uniforms stood in their way and told them it was written on the rally posters that the event was closed and “Gypsies can’t come”, Lakatos said. When the representatives of the Roma organisation tried to get into a Jobbik rally in nearby Hajduboszormeny later, they were not allowed in either, he added.
The local elections office will be informed of the matter, Lakatos said.
Jobbik said in a statement sent to MTI on Sunday that “Gypsies had participated” at the open-air event in Hajduhadhaz and “members of the New Hungarian Guard Movement only stood around the speakers”. The statement said 10-15 “guard members wore the new, legal uniforms”. Several police officers in uniform were present in the crowd, it added.
Interesting there’s no video or pictures proving this took place… isn’t it?
We have to take Mr Lakatos’ word for it.
I wonder what possible motive he could have for lying through his teeth?
Scary paramilitaries
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqILPi-fswo
If the event is closed then the event is closed to all.Deliberate provacation by the Roma,if they wanted to attend they should have come early
@Bobs… and Ricsi: You think those responses and level of argument appropriate?
My suggestion is that Mr Lakatos is a liar.
Is it now racist to call someone a liar?
Jobbik, for one, have vigorously denied this charge:
http://jobbik.hu/rovatok/kozlemeny/a_jobbik_mindenkit_beenged_lakossagi_forumaira
And I know both who I will believe, and who has the greater motive for spouting lies. And between Jobbik and MTI, who has the greater record for spreading them.
But I am, as ever, delighted at your contribution, and look forward to your explanation of why anything I have said is, as you put it, inappropriate.
i will suspend my judgement on who is lying here until i see some real evidence to support one or the other. currently it is “mr garda was mean but i cant prove anything” versus “we said nothing of the sort and you are lying”.
the word of patriotic christians against gypsy politicians. i guess its a personal choice of who you think is more likely to lie.
Vandorlo
The story is either true or false
If true, the population Roma needs a press agent – they should not have shown up at the meting without cameras, recorders and a rep from a Roma newspaper.
The “he said” “she said ” MO doesn’t work in cases like this and they do need evidence.
Moreover, they should have come early – in a crowd scene, if you want to get in and think there may be a “problem” it’s good to make sure “the place is full” argument cannot be used.
Disenfranchised people are not usually media savvy.
I know people who are in this type of business – All I have to do is convince them to move to Hungary and offer their services to the Roma.
Olga. As per usual you are as far removed from the truth as you are in kilometers from Hungary.
Go away. We do not need your busybody attitude.
Sort out your own problems first before you jump on the bandwagon defending a supposed underclass from imaginary tyrants.
Miss Vanderloo getting her pink knickers in a twist
also over nothing.
Two gay jews against the nazis? Sounds like a Charlie Chaplain film
@olga
If true, the population Roma needs a press agent… …I know people who are in this type of business – All I have to do is convince them to move to Hungary and offer their services to the Roma.
olga at March 22, 2010 2:18 PM
—–
Good luck with that.
olga,
i believe you were just about to spent equal time on the “if false” argument? or do you not want to even mention that possibility in case it offends your social sensibilities? this is why hungarians are sick of the left and will continue to move to jobbik. its as if you are incapable of accepting that maybe gypsies are capable of lies too.
just trying to get some balance going here guys. “roma” dont want your friends “services”. hungarians have had enough media lies and unproven allegations like this.
@ Paul
You would want the truth, right?
So if the allegations are true, they should be able to prove it. I agreed with you.
Because it’s known that JOBBIK and the Roma are not “best friends” it’s easy to jump to conclusions.
Of course I side with the Roma because it’s who I am but there is certainly doubt in my mind because I don’t believe anything for sure unless there is evidence.
Moreover, as you know the “Roma Problem” has an impact in Canada as well.
“patriotic christians against gypsy politicians”
Yeah right, because we all know it’s either or. If you don’t see the bigotry in that remark, you are blind.
@ Bob
Regardless of who did what to whom, do you not think that people should be able to prove allegations?
You know I was only kidding about finding a press agent. But let’s face it, if they had someone like Krisztina Morvai (not her, just someone with her capabilities) champion their cause, the situation would be much different.
I read somewhere that a political party Hungary wanted to tie welfare payments to the Roma with compulsory school attendance for their children. The school hours would be long and the kids would be fed. No school attendance, no welfare.
The article said the “Liberals” opposed this. I am not sure who the so called Liberals are in Hungary but I can tell you they do not have the children’s best interest at heart. That’s when Liberal ideologies are good on paper but they stink in reality.
I am reading between the lines and came to the conclusion that Hungary does not have laws for compulsory school attendance – if there were then
tying school attendance to welfare would not make sense to begin with.
@ Gainsay
Sort out your own problems first before you jump on the bandwagon defending a supposed underclass from imaginary tyrants.
Did you know that the Roma from Hungary was Canada’s top source of asylum-seekers?
Of course you knew. Can you figure out why I believe this issue is “my business?”
Some bedtime reading for you but don’t open the link if you already know you won’t believe in the Canadian media’s perspective.
http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20100122.escenic_1441459/BNStory/DOUG+SAUNDERS
I have no idea what the last sentence of your posting meant, but I am confident that it is totally relevant to the Roma issue
@Olga: No one checks on schools attendance or cares. There is meant to be a requirement, but if a parent says their child is ill there is no need to get a medical note to prove it.
Also, people go on holiday any time they want to and don’t really care about keeping to school schedules etc…
@gainsay and @Olga:
Don’t worry, in the end the gay Jews always win against the Nazis …
In Germany we say : The mills of truth work slow but sure …
@ Vandorlo
I figured that out otherwise the proposal makes no sense.
I am not about to research the laws in Europe and I only know the Education Act in Ontario (although I am confident it’s the same across the country)
If parents want to withdraw their kids from school and prefer home schooling, the cirriculum has to meet the School Board’s standards and the education is supervised. Not sure of the details, but I know it’s done because I’ve seen policy papers on the subject.
So welfare payments in Ontario are not subject to
school attendance because the law also cover kids
if their parents were multi millionaires.
I hope no one tells me Hungary is not Canada – We do have Roma families especially in Hamilton Ontario on welfare. And yes, their kids attend school regularly and not because of “welfare payments” Because it’s the law
Elle:\”‘Transliteration’ is the representation of a letter or word of one language in the closest corresponding letter or word of another language. Or, if you like, transliteration is a word-for-word translation of a text, as distinct from its translation on a semantic level. I’m sure your advise on writing style is valuable. \”
“patriotic christians”
-
yep, because everything that is ‘christian’ is good and wholesome and above reproach. I see so much about the great christian traditions of Europe that go back centuries and how there is such a need to ‘return to our roots’. It’s not so much the ‘real’ roots of christianity that I have a problem with, but really, the christian church throughout the centuries is not squeaky clean and it gets up my nose to see all this misty-eyed piety when we all know what’s in the closet.
-
Here is a nice little quote from an article I read today about social identity:Davis
(1978) analyzed the confrontations that culminated on St. Bartholomew’s day in
some detail. She showed that Catholics would not only kill their Protestant rivals
but also rip out the entrails, cut the head from the torso, and tear the genitalia off
as trophies.
-
I know there’s likely to be a backlash for even suggesting that christianity is not all it’s cracked up to be…perhaps a few will consult the rolodex of ‘anti-anti-Hungarian insults’…a ‘liberal, h-wifer, Hungary hater, a Jew, willfully ignorant or that string of ever so intellectual characterisations such as ‘stupid’, ‘liar’, slimy’ and varying forms of illiteracy.Maybe I might even get some special attention and someone will come up with a new one…My all time favourite was a long, long time ago when someone said “You are as contemptible as they are commendable.”I had to take my hat off to that one.It would be best to just be ignored.
@Cináed:
Just to underline your point:
Have you read the sories about those catholic (and protestant too) priests who sexually assaulted children not only in the USA and Ireland but also in Germany (and probably the world over …),
The juiceist thing is that even the current pope knew about some cases and helped keep them under cover – he as a bishop and his brother too just sent the incriminated priests to some other parish – without telling anybody about their paedophile inclination.
Now that bloody German pope Benedict has apologised to the Irish, but not the Geman people.
PS: He “worked” at the university where I was studxing at the same time, but left because the climate was too liberal for his taste, that reactionary “christian” bigotted asshole!
@ Cinaed and Wolfi
Cinaed, what up? Your last posting on Christianity made you sound downright pissed off. Not like you. The straw that broke the camel’s back with all this piety?
Wolfi – Rest assured, Canada had the church scandals. Article 2 days ago:
http://www.thestar.com/unassigned/article/782686–vatican-failed-to-heed-sex-abuse-lessons-from-canada
The good news is that the Catholics I know feel no responsibility, nor should they.
Of course the Catholics I know don’t hold other religions and races responsible for evils committed by race or religion. Surprisingly the hold individuals responsible. In this case, the pedophiles were sickos but they were not perverts because they were Catholics. They would have been perverts if they were Muslim, Jewish, Hindu etc etc. Novel idea , isn’t it?
Not surprisingly, our resident commies have changed the subject completely as mr lakatos’ unproven claims become increasingly suspect. now its a christian-bashing conversation.
@ Paul
Pope Benedict VI wrote an 8 page letter yesterday to the Irish.
Luckily, he forgot to post his views on this website.
If he had, he would now belong to what you consider
a Christian-bashing Communist.
Pope Benedict VI would have had great trouble writing anything yesterday.
Though I do think you’ve made Paul’s point, that this thread has become more about Christian-bashing than Mr Lakatos’ flights of fantasy, quite well… despite the 11 century gap.
@ Bob
My apologies – XVI – better?
So now that the roman numbers are correct and we all know what I meant, is he (a)guilty of Christian bashing? Or (b) he is a man who takes responsibility?
I choose (b)
TIDBITS FROM THE TALMUD
Whoever disobeys a Rabbi deserves death…Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.
Moed Kattan 17a . If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.
Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human (“Only ye are designated men”).
Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, “Oil of Anointing” and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals (“she-asses”).
Jews are Divine, Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.
O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile (“Cuthean”) the wages owed him for work.
Jews Have Superior Legal Status, Baba Kamma 37b. “If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite…the payment is to be in full.”
Jews May Steal from Non-Jews, Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a Gentile (“heathen”) it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b).
Sanhedrin 76a . God will not spare a Jew who “marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean…”
Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a Gentile (“Cuthean”), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. Gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has “exposed their money to Israel.”
Jews May Lie to Non-Jews, Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies (“subterfuges”) to circumvent a Gentile.
Non-Jewish Children Sub-Human, Yebamoth 98a. All Gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b . Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.
Abodah Zarah 67b . “The vessels of Gentiles, do they not impart a worsened flavor to the food cooked in them?”
@ Pope
no comment on your posting.
This is strange – As soon as I made the mistake and posting VI instead of XVI I wondered about the real Pope VI – poor guy was strangled.
Then I came across another article – take a look. A publication made the same mistake as I did. I only know because they referred to the Present Pope as Pope VI – makes me feel better
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/5398692-pope-benedict-vi-silent-pressure-mounts-in-german-catholic-church-abuse
Damn…I knew it would be the one insult I had forgotten to post that would be the one to get used.
-
Paul, it was you who changed the subject when you made this an issue of ‘patriotic christians against gypsy politicians’.
-
Olga: Yes, I know it was not my usual style to be so ‘passionate’.In a way, you did make my point…This should not be an issue of ‘Christian morals’ Vs the evil gypsies. This is about the failure of two groups to get along.It wouldn’t surprise me if the MG guys did refuse entry to their rally, but really, it’s pretty obvious that the Roma guys were not going along as sympathetic supporters either.The point for me is that when one group starts to use a ‘heavenly mandate’ they are also shirking any earthly responsibility.I also think that if one is going to claim ‘moral superiority’ then one should also be required to face the inevitable questions that arise attesting to the opposite.I agree what the Pope did was a good and responsible thing, and I applaud that.I don’t actually have a problem with Christians (catholic or protestant) but think that the same rules should apply for all.I think what makes humans capable of compassion and good works is not a religious thing, it is a choice…likewise, the decision to be cruel is also a very human choice.If Jobbik want to keep people out of their meetings, that’s up to them…it’s their party to run.I just get sick of hearing about how it’s all to do with God’s will.
(cont)
Throughout history, all manner of evils have been committed in God’s name.Even when just considering those who have used a concept of God that has originated from the same place we see this.The ancient Jews used God’s name to slaughter the occupants of the ‘promised land’, the crusaders slaughtered Muslims in God’s name, the Muslims slaughtered Christians in God’s name…The Germans against the British, and the British against the Germans, the Americans (and allies) against Muslims and Islamic extremists against the Americans and their allies. If this is in fact the same God, then He’s a pretty sadistic bastard…playing everyone off against each other. …OR… perhaps God has nothing to do with it at all, and it’s just yet another fine example of man’s inhumanity to man.I think the constant overuse of ‘christian morality’ here does a marked disservice to the huge numbers of ‘real’ christians who do take their faith seriously and don’t feel the need to claim ‘moral superiority’ because they belong to a particular religion.
As Matthew 7:16 says:
“Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” (KJV)
…so no, Paul. I am not ‘christian bashing’. I am voicing my objection to the use of ‘christian moral superiority’ to justify the opinion of a group ordniary people. I think it is you who is abusing and manipulating the sanctity of religion to achieve your own ends…Have the courage to say this is your opinion and leave God out of it.
@ Cin;
))
I don’t know dude. Sounds to me like you need more Jesus in your life!
Hi Zsuzsa,
Jesus and I were discussing this issue over a Coke just the other day. He said ‘If a man wearing a police uniform stole your wallet, would you blame the police force?’
I sighed and expressed my understanding of His point.
There was a brief pause in our conversation…perhaps an angel passed in our midst.
I said to Him “It must suck being the Almighty sometimes.”
He said “well, it’s not so bad most of the time, the travel allowance is great and the lip service, oops, I mean room service is always available.The paperwork is Hellish though…all those demand letters, all those complaints, all those requests ‘please make our team win’ and flame wars about who the true ‘chosen’ ones are.We should have chosen cats…or cute little birdies. My GOD…oops…it gets tiring.”
I asked “Don’t you have reception staff for that stuff?”
He answered “No, everyone always wants to talk to the manager.”
I nodded knowingly “I see.”
Getting up to leave he said “Well, speaking of which, I must get going. Hungary is having an election soon, and I have to make sure I’m available in case the world stops turning.I should probably get back to Benedict too, he’s having departmental staffing problems again.Man, those guys need a better recruitment agency.”
“OK” I said, “Take it easy”
“Yeah, you too…”fi amaan Allah.”
@ Cin,
Well as long as it’s only one coke per day, you piss ant!!!
You make me laugh!
of course! i get it now! when gypsy gangs attack hungarians in rural areas, its “about the failure of two groups to get along”. and when a gypsy leader makes wild accusations that he cant support against the garda, its not his fault at all right?
you clearly have not been on a trip around borsod recently. your perspective might change when you see the reality on the ground. its a little more complicated than the usual “racism” and “the failure of two groups to get along” junk that the media spews forth
Actually Paul, I worked for the Police in Miskolc (I’m not a cop). While I was there they showed me what ‘real life’ in Hungary looks like…not just the pretty postcard views of quaint villages and church steeples. I even managed to get personal interviews with the remand/prison commandant and prison psychiatrist, and a ‘no holds barred’ tour of the prison itself. The only place I was not allowed to go was the high security area (which makes sense) They allowed me to interview prisoners and put no limits on the questions I was allowed to ask. The cops took me on patrols and gave me a picture of what life was like for them. …away from the school/station environment, they would open up to me and give me the ‘unofficial’ story of life as they saw it. At some points, it all got pretty frightening and I really did worry for my safety…sometimes despite the presence of the cops, sometimes because of them. So yeah…I’m pretty sure I know what’s going on in BAZ.
…and is that you changing the subject again? I thought we were talking about Roma being refused entry to a Jobbik meeting. Damn, It’s hard to keep up sometimes.
@Cinaed
It’s not God who creates chaos it’s people being manipulated . People have their free will to either choice the Mammon or discovering their true christ self, and if you haven’t been able to work that we require Faith in our lives then you’re leading yourself into a dead end. It’s not rocket science it’s the fallen ones and power elite who intercept Gods teachings trying to destroy it, by rejecting the Living Word of the Living Christ, they have also shut out the Living Word within their own hearts.
Yeah, Law…I’m pretty sure that’s what I just said.
…all that “man’s inhumanity to man” stuff.
i will suspend my judgement on who is lying here until i see some real evidence to support one or the other.
Paul at March 22, 2010 2:00 PM
——————————–
The burden of proof is on the accuser. In this case, it is on Lakatos. Jobbik does not have to prove a negative. Unless Lakatos can produce a video supporting his claim, he is a liar.
“Unless Lakatos can produce a video supporting his claim, he is a liar.”
-
Actually no. If Lakatos can’t support his claim, it is an ubsustantiated claim. He may not be lying. He just can’t prove he is not lying. Just the same as I was recently called a ‘liar’ for suggesting that Hungarians I spoke to winced when I asked questions about the MG. I’m not an “IFO Hunter” and don’t carry a video camera with me at all times, so I can’t back it up with documentary evidence. It doesn’t make me a liar though. I would call it more of “an inconvenient truth”. There is a big difference between ‘truth’ and ‘Truth’ and ‘what one WANTS to be the Truth’.
-
Knowing how much everyone here just LOVES Nietszche I can’t resist posting this quote: “There are no facts, only interpretations.” Which before you shoot me, is in itself an interpretation of Descartes. The requirement for absolute proof in the issues raised here is arbitrary and inconsistent when one considers how often appeals are made to such mystical and esoteric notions of the Hungarian psyche, spirituality, morality and patriotism, which really require those who have been ‘othered’ to simply ‘take my word for it’.
-
yes yes, I have quoted Nietszche, ergo, I AM THE ANTI-CHRIST. No wait…I thought that was the pope. God…oops…I’m just digging myself in further. Seriously though…I don’t hold Nietszche up as a shining light of human philosophical achievement. He did have a nice turn of phrase though.
Nice try again Law and Bobs to be God\’s \”interpreter\” for us \”laypeople\” on the site (including the quote from sockpuppet Pope on the Talmud that no one on earth pays attention to other than the tiniest handful of fundy-mentalists).
Don\’t you realize that attempting to speak for God to justify intolerance might make Him angry at you? If you truly believe in God you should start fearing Him….. NOW!
Jobbik cannot turn back the tide. The gypsies^Roma are people that successive governments have ignored.
The villages across Hungary are inhabited by people out of work – Roma and/or Hungarians.
Resentment builds up on both sides but the blame for the ever-growing problems is with the politicians and local bureaucrats.
Paul is correct when he says it is not just a racial issue.
People are quick to jump on the bandwagon and condemn so-called “racist” Hungarians- This is far from the truth.
The woeful condition the economy is in at the moment makes the future look bleak for all of us.
Dodgy statistics poured out on a weekly basis by “suspect” government agencies do not tell the true story.
People that live, work, and have their heart and soul in Hungary, know the true extent of the problems.
Posters from foreign lands believe everything they read- Most of the information does not come from a primary source. Olga, as well-intentioned as she might think she is, more often than not juggles with erroneous, and one-sided, information.
@ Teny
Re: “People that live, work, and have their heart and soul in Hungary, know the true extent of the problems.”
I want you to know that I agree with what you say 150% including how I haven’t a clue about these problems
When I quoted that article by Anna Porter – she did not mean to solve Hungary’s problems either. She was not “butting into Hungary’s domestic affairs”
The only thing I know is that JOBBIK and hating minorities and having goon squads like the MG are NOT the answers.
I don’t how to cure cancer (Hungary’s economical and internal problems) but I do know that “witchcraft” (Jobbik) is not the answer.
BTW, I would not dream of butting my nose into any other political parties’ opinions or agendas.
The very fact that only 15% of Hungarians support JOBBIK makes me feel really proud and happy of Hungary. That’s it. (I would be prouder if Hungary was more like Poland where the utra-right wing crazies are losing popularity but I hope that will happen)
I truly wish Hungarians the slogan “Adjon az Isten szebb jovot” – but I know that the route is not through a bunch of lunatic fascists.