Hungary’s radical nationalist Jobbik party has proposed that public-order offenders should be moved into special zones outside cities where they would be kept under police surveillance.
The governing Fidesz party’s parliamentary group said setting up “ghettos” is not the answer to the problems raised by Jobbik, after the main opposition Socialists charged Fidesz with showing indifference to what they called Jobbik’s “anti-democratic” views.
Csanad Szegedi, an MEP for Jobbik, told a press conference on Wednesday that the first “public order zone”, a cordoned off area where residents would be registered and kept under surveillance by a local gendarmerie, should be set up in the northeastern city of Miskolc. The proposal aims at “sealing off criminal elements” while forcing them to “integrate”, Szegedi said. Jobbik also called for the establishment of self-sustaining prisons, where the inmates would have to pay for their own sustenance costs.
Jobbik leader Gabor Vona told the same press conference that the integration of Hungary’s Roma population had failed over the past twenty years and Jobbik proposes sending Roma children to boarding schools where “segregation would be a more productive educational tool.”
The number of Roma, the largest minority, in Hungary is estimated to be around 640,000. Roma pupils, the most part from poor families, still face discrimination in the country’s schools and are often segregated, in spite of the programmes of successive governments to reverse the situation.
Szegedi said that Roma families living illegally in Lyukovolgy, a northwestern suburb of Miskolc, should be the first to be interned on vandalism charges, while Roma residents of the Avas, another Miskolc suburb, were also mentioned as potential targets to be displaced. Szegedi said the move could be ordered by local councils as part of forced evacuation procedures.
He added that residents could return to the city upon approval of a council set up by the authorities, if they educate their children regularly and participate in public works programmes.
Vona said that Hungary’s biggest domestic problem was the co-existence of “Roma and Hungarians” and that this was an issue no political force was ready to face in earnest.
“We need new solutions if we are to avoid civil war,” Vona said, adding that a parliamentary committee should be set up to oversee the problems of Roma integration and that Hungary should take up this issue during its presidency of the European Union next year.
Laszlo Teleki, a member of the Socialist party presidium, said Viktor Orban’s Fidesz government had not distanced itself from Jobbik’s xenophobic remarks despite repeated calls from the Socialists to do so. He said if Fidesz will not take a stand, they would complain to the European Union about the government’s “cynical silence regarding issues causing major threats to democracy”.
Fidesz in a statement called on Jobbik to “examine Hungary’s constitution” before making such “outrageous propositions”. It added that the solution is “not to set up ghettos, but to have strict laws and a strong police force.”
“We need new solutions if we are to avoid civil
war”.
Goodness me that is a bit strong isn’t it? is
there truly, honestly even the remotest
possibility of that happening? Well if jobbik
want to introduce apartheid in Hungary, then it
just may well do that.
The truth is that no-one in Hungary in the past 30
years has dared deal with the Roma question
because it is political suicide. Will the
introducion of gulags, or concentration camps or
“sealing off criminal elements”, whatever you want
to call it, it amounts to the same thing. I think
Jobbik actually wants a civil war hence their
divide and rule strategy. They are not
constructive, only reactionary and provocative.
”but to have strict laws and a strong police force.”
Not the solution EITHER BY THE WAY!!!!! Since when is our police strong as in ”non-corrupted” or strict laws have stopped Roma from committing crimes? Maybe Hungary should experiment with the idea that jobbik proposes and to see if any noticeable results occur. After all we must care for ourselves first
Remember: Ghettoization preceded deportation to camps in the
Holocaust.
So, 640 000 are responsible for all crime in Hungary? Surely jews, socialists, gays etc are criminals too.
The other millions are all law abiding citizens living in fear I suppose? What nonsense!!
At least Jobbik are openly lunatic…..there are many Orbanistas who would like to be able to lock up opponents for ‘social’ reasons too.
We really are messed up. A beacon of hope and tolerance to the world.
Kike hypocrisy knows no bounds. They steal Palestinians’ lands and erect walls to keep them out of lands they stole from them. They do not care if those Palestinians they lock up in the Gaza concentration camps are guilty or not and murder innocent women and children, Israeli settlers terrorize, brutalize and murder the Palestinians in the illegally occupied territories without the least regard to human decency and human rights.
Jobbik wants to isolate known, habitual, brutal and incorrigible gypsy criminals from law-abiding society. It would protect law-abiding gypsies just as it would protect law abiding Hungarians from criminals.
Make no mistake about it, many of these gypsy criminals are not Hungarians but illegal immigrants from Romania. Jobbik should go one-step further, check their status, and send all the illegal back to Romania. The Jewish Sarkozy is doing it.
The Roma issue is an economic issue. As Hungary’s economic situation improves so will the opportunities for Roma. Unfortunately this make take a generation. Jobbiks socialist economic agenda and Nazi ghetto solution are wrong headed and dangerous. Fortunately draconian policy proposals like these will illustrate their lack of common sense and hasten their demise. Good riddance
What more evidence does anyone need that Vona and Jobbik is racist (and batshit crazy) than the proposal to segregate Roma in boarding schools and the idea of establishing Maygar Apartheid.
There are subtler ways to isolate offenders witout making it look like you are setting up “ghettos”, (which in the world of public relations is a bad rap indeed) You can make public the names and addresses of ex-felons, which would put them on the spot for one thing. Second, communities can vote a zoning restriction against such people taking up residence, in effect driving them out into the boondocks. (A law like , no ex-felon can live within a kilometer of a school, church or residence) This has worked to send released sex offenders in the states out into the desert virtually, as they can’t safely or legally live in most communities.
Well there are already gypsy ghettos where Hungarians are terrorised by the gypsies, many families can’t leave their house at the same time because of fear of theft from break and enter.
Hungarians are living in hell in the regional areas of Hungary, especially the eastern areas of the nation, this is a great solution for the Gypsy criminals to be isolated, if they behave like animals then lock them up like animals.
If my tax money is being spent on these lazy bastards at least I know that the rest of the authentic taxpayers are living safely instead of these dangerous conditions.
We Hungarians didn’t start the fire It was always burning Since the world’s been turning “bythejews”
@ JTS
Re: “The proposal aims at “sealing off criminal elements” while forcing them to “integrate”, Szegedi said.”
What is the definition of “criminal element and how do you integrate if you segregate?
Re: “Jobbik also called for the establishment of self-sustaining prisons, where the inmates would have to pay for their own sustenance costs.”
Would that include all prisoners in Hungary or only the Roma?
Never mind, this proposal will soon be buried under dust – I have complete confidence in Krisztina Morvai’s upcoming outrage on such proposed violation of human rights.
I am taking a sentence of hers out of context because it has nothing to do with Roma but mark my words – she will be so disgusted by this JOBBIK proposal that she will use the sentence again:
“”You consider a party democratic that trampled on all the values of democracy, on freedom, on human rights, and on human dignity?”
The Roma can count of her.
Attila,
Ethnic Hungarians commit lots of crimes. It was Ethnic Hungarians who elected a string of bad governments ranging from the Socialists to Fidesz.
Ethnic Hungarians are responsible for the vast majority of the tax evasion that cripples the country.
Ethnic Hungarians oppressed every minority in Hungary for hundreds of years in attempt to assure their ethnic supremacy.
The price of that oppression was the Trianon Treaty.
Crime will just continue to get worse and worse in
Hungary. Because the political will does not exist
to tackle the problem, and even if it did the
finances do not exist to make any worthwhile
changes.
What the political will does exist to do however,
is outlaw the response of many Hungarians to this
lawlessness. And of course many posters here will
simply be delighted as this happens over the
coming months.
Such people are actually stupid enough to think
that removing a symptom removes the
disease.
Politicians and the police across Europe have
found that it is much easier to do your job, and
pretend you are combating crime effectively, if
instead of pursuing and prosecuting the recidivist
criminal, you simply criminalize the traditionally
law abiding.
They are much easier to catch, simpler to
prosecute and if you make the punishment fines,
you can actually earn a lot of revenue through
it.
Only there will be one small consequence. More old
ladies will have their throats cut in their beds.
No one here will care. Of that you can be
certain. And when the consequences of this
later appear at the ballot box, everyone will be
surprised.
Trampling on the Gypsy and other nationality criminals yes, honest gypsy citizens shouldn’t worry. Why do you always take words as extreme you radical olga, where does it say anywhere that it will be all gypos? Just your programmed head, full of shit from the Neo Liberal media which causes you to behave like a misfit.
According to Szegedi, the purpose of the designated camps is to take criminal elements out of society. Initially, the camps could host gypsy families that are illegally occupied apartments, in the meantime terrorizing peaceful residents in the Miskolc suburb of Lyukóvölgy. The same camp could host gypsies that illegally occupied apartments in the suburb of Avas and squeezing 20 to 30 people in two bedroom apartments, meanwhile terrorizing the entire neighborhood. In these cases, the municipality would be allowed to forcefully remove squatters from the occupied units.
According to the Jobbik’s plan, returning to society would depend on the individuals willingness to participate in social work and school their children. A municipal committee would decide on the applicant’s readiness to return into the world of law and order.
Currently, Jobbik is not in the position to set up the gendarmerie nationwide that would guard the camps, however, winning municipal seats in the upcoming election the party could start organizing these units on the local level said Szegedi.
He also said the country needs self-sufficient jails because keeping a person in a correctional institutions costs two hundred fifty thousands forints each month. Prisoners who refuse to contribute to the costs of their own confinement would be housed under more puritan conditions.
cont
Gábor Vona, the leader of Jobbik said members of all political parties burying their heads in the sand just to avoid facing the issue of gypsy crime that is the most critical part of gypsy-Hungarian relations.
The president of Jobbik called upon the other parties to face reality and be brave enough by spelling out what the majority of ordinary Hungarians say at the dinner table –the integration of gypsies into Hungarian society has failed. According to Vona, Hungary needs new solutions, otherwise the country finds itself into civil-war-like conditions soon. He calls upon the government to set up a parliamentary committee that would investigate the issues related to the subject of gypsy integration and establish a diagnosis. The president of Jobbik is calling upon the government to be the driving force behind setting up an European committee dealing with the problem of gypsies when Hungary will take the rotating presidency of EU in 2011; because gypsy integration is an European problem too.
Until the other parties are willing to face the questions of gypsy integration Jobbik will keep the issue high on public agenda. He said in the past twenty years, Jobbik did the most for gypsies simply by spelling out rather than shrouding the real issues involved in their difficulties to integrate into society.
(MTI – edited by hungarianambiance.com)
Law,
I just returned from Croatia. They politely decline your offer of incorporating Croatia into the Kingdom of Hungary.
The Czechs, the Slovaks, the Germans who live in Eastern Austria, and the Romanians all politely decline as well.
However, they are willing to send care packages since Hungary has fallen economically behind large swaths of Eastern Europe, including gift certicates at your local Kentucky Fried establishment.
Also included are books on how to manage your personal finances and renovate your sadly dilapitated buildings while still maintaining your BMW and your beer gut …
Well all three that you quoted from the gut, run down apartment and bmw are halucinations from you being high on some Croatian mushrooms, do be careful which ones you pick for consumption, appears you bombed out big time here.
many of these gypsy criminals are not Hungarians but illegal immigrants from Romania. Jobbik should go one-step further, check their status, and send all the illegal back to Romania
LHVJ at September 2, 2010 1:14 PM
—
1) Free travel inside EU, so for a Romanian being ‘illegal’ in Hungary is a bit hard, but there exists possibilities to evict people if they cannot live without support
.
2) Any Hungarian court today can expel any criminal foreigner, EU member or not. And set for how many years (or for life) this expulsion should be valid. This is often an added punishment to criminals with other citizenship
.
3) Our Little Husar wrote:
“Jobbik wants to isolate known, habitual, brutal and incorrigible gypsy criminals from law-abiding society”
Is not that the exact reason why we have prisons?
Why should *any* “known, habitual, brutal and incorrigible” criminals be running lose?
Why is Jobbik protecting non-Roma criminals?
Hmm, makes you think…
@ Law
Re your comment: “Why do you always take words as extreme you radical olga, where does it say anywhere that it will be all gypos?”
Being Satan is not an easy job, sometimes I have so much required reading that I miss important messages from articles and forget how radical it is to believe that laws should apply to everyone equally.
I missed the part of the article stating that the plan includes everyone in Hungary.
Would you mind drawing my attention to that part that includes the non-Roma?
Krisztina Morvai will clarify the misunderstanding any minute now but in the meantime you could correct my erroneous posting
bi-law: I thought rock and roll was evil, or bad, or wrong or something…so why then the Billy Joel quote? Well, whatever you say, “It’s still rock and roll to me.”…but since I see the piano man is ‘kosher’ now, here is an oldy but a goody. One I’m sure you’ve sung in your heart to someone at some point:
-
Come out Virginia, don’t let me wait
You Catholic girls start much too late
aw But sooner or later it comes down to fate
I might as well be the one
well, They showed you a statue, told you to pray
They built you a temple and locked you away
Aw, but they never told you the price that you pay
For things that you might have done…..
Only the good die young
thats what i said
only the good die young x2
You might have heard I run with a dangerous crowd
We ain’t too pretty we ain’t too proud
We might be laughing a bit too loud
aw But that never hurt no one
So come on Virginia show me a sign
Send up a signal and I’ll throw you the line
The stained-glass curtain you’re hiding behind
(you know)
Never lets in the sun
darlin only the good die young
You got a nice white dress and a party on your confirmation
You got a brand new soul
mmmm, And a cross of gold
But Virginia they didn’t give you quite enough information
You didn’t count on me
When you were counting on your rosary
well your mother told you all that I could give you was a reputation
Aww She never cared for me
But did she ever say a prayer for me? oh woah woah
The irony of using Billy Joel is he is a stinking
Jew thats why i used him as an example.
By the way fairy Cinaed, you have a lot of balls
behind a keyboard but face to face you would be a
gutless jew supporting jellyfish.
@ Badly dressed Tsar
Did you know that Billy Joel was given an award about 8-10 years ago as “Person of the Year for his charity work?.
His concerts fund charities that serve child abuse, domestic violence, autism, cancer including the Make a Wish Foundation that grants wished to dying kids.
bi-law: Gee, just like LHVJ and his “Few good men” gaffe…if you backtrack any faster, you’ll give yourself whip-lash.
you know, when you post like that, I know that you’ve got nothing left to say. My god, did you really just revert to school-yard bully tactics? How mature! You’re such a big tough man aren’t you? So powerful and strong…that’s why you’re dead-set scared of women and minorities. Wow, I wish I could be just like you.
-
Oh, by the way, seeing as you seem so unable to grasp the subtleties of adult communication, “You’re such a big tough man” and “Wow, I wish I could be just like you” were both said with heavy sarcasm.
Fairy Cinaed, so interesting observing your gutless
meaningless waffle with no concrete direction,
sticking to the concept of a hazy area of Grey for
this matter, which sums you up to a tee.
You’re a misguided piece of shit, too ignorant to
even see the damage you are causing to other people.
No doubt you would have hung around joints like “The
Beat” in F. Valley trying to pick up space cadet
poofs, you’re a sick puppy.
Ogre the grouch: I like some of Billy Joel’s music…it was certainly part of the soundtrack to my younger years. He strikes me as being a bit of an ass to the people he works with, but you know, I still respect anyone who gives their time and money to charity. I don’t know that much about his personal politics, but even if there is an element of opportunism in his desire to donate, he’s still doing a good thing and he deserves the benefit of the doubt for that.
bi-law: Gees man, calm down, you’ll blow a gasket. Listen to you, going off like a frog in a sock. I must say your last post was a bit random. Were you just trying to throw as many terms as possible in as possible in the hope you’d come up with something at least marginally intelligent? Was it good for you?
-
I used to work at Dooley’s in the valley, which was a bit of a shit-hole really, but at least the Irish pub downstairs had good food and was lots of fun on the ‘truly’ Irish nights.
-
by the way, fairies have many good attributes, such as innocence, peace, and good fortune. Perhaps if you’re lucky, a fairy might bless you one day. Perhaps you could ask for some courage to face those terrifying bra-burning women.
Hey you big fucking Fairy, Dooleys!! I know why
)
you where attracted there because it was a full on
gay bar Hacienda. I worked opposite at the Sun
newspapers, and was informed by the journalists of
the history of that Fag Bar where fairies like you
hung around. By the way a Fairy for all you expats
is slang for a poofter or Fag.
I do admit i did go play pool upstairs at Dooleys
a few times and attended the Irish Saint Patricks
day weekends, and have met with John Dooley a few
times.
Wasn’t my seen though i didn’t like the vibe too
many druggies hanging around there.
My favorite joints were Story Bridge, Breakie
Creek and the Victory Hotels on a Sunday session,
GREAT COCKROACH AND CANE TOAD RACES
But what amazes me how you can’t control yourself,
continuously smear, manipulate and ridicule anyone
that disagrees with you, i believe you must of
struggled to find any real friends in your life
and would have had to purchase heaps of rounds to
impress friends, a real try hard I can imagine. A
bit of advice mate, go fuck yourself you Fairy!
Law… I’m fascinated… why IS it that you can’t
SEE how disturbed and un-likeable you sound?
I think if you took 1000 people at random and had
them read this page and ask em with WHOM they
would rather share a drink, you or the ‘Tsar’ it
would be like 997 to 1 in his favor…
The fact this isn’t clear to you is just kind of
sad. One day there will be a way to DO this
experiment, and maybe THEN you’ll ‘wake up’.
Til then, let me say what an idiot you sound like,
what a mentally-ill individual, and how similar to
the “throw em in a Ghetto!” style rhetoric your
nonsense sounds. Downright dangerous, even.
But you’ll never get it, I guess. Your loss!
Life is much more FUN when you’re likeable!
You’re missin’ out!
Politicians and the police across Europe have
found that it is much easier to do your job, and
pretend you are combating crime effectively, if
instead of pursuing and prosecuting the recidivist
criminal, you simply criminalize the traditionally
law abiding
bobscountrybunker at September 2, 2010 3:53 PM
—
“you simply criminalize the traditionally
law abiding”
So being *traditional* law abiding comes with:
* the milk from the Mother,
* that fat payment called salary every month,
* the color of your skin
.
I mean have you ever seen a person:
* growing up in a happy home becoming a criminal?
* being wealthy committing a crime?
* with white skin being a criminal?
.
Such a wonderful expression:
‘*traditional* law abiding’
.
Of course we will never get any example on this, then that would make ‘bob’ into a criminal
So simple to prove a point with a circle-argument
And of course we should also forget that “the traditionally law abiding” do things like:
.
“András, a former member of the Magyar Gárda, stabbed his victim numerous times, tried to sever her head, carved a swastika into her back with a knife, then draped her body in a flag portraying a Nazi symbol”
-
http://www.politics.hu/20100901/former-hungarian-guard-member-sentenced-to-life-for-murder
-
But hey, he did not steal her mobile telephone!
@Viking,
)
“I mean have you ever seen a person:
* growing up in a happy home becoming a criminal?
* being wealthy committing a crime?
* with white skin being a criminal?”
* Conrad Black
* Conrad Black
* Conrad Black
@ Bystander,
“I think if you took 1000 people at random”
“would rather share a drink, you or the ‘Tsar’ it
would be like 997 to 1 in his favor…”
997+1 = 998 ****D’OH!
I cannot believe these preposterous non sequiturs
actually used to get a rise out of me.
Live and learn.
Conrad Black
justasking at September 3, 2010 1:24 AM
—
So you mean that this “White Roman Catholic” does not belong to ‘bob’s group of “traditionally law abiding”?
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Black
-
But who does then belong to ‘bob’s supremacy group of “traditionally law abiding”?
Any bids?
@ Viking and justasking
Re: Conrad Black
He may not be Jewish, in fact he comes from a leading Canadian WASP family but he is married to a Jewish very right-wing journalist called Barbara Amiel.
That would account for his “going wrong” of course, except he was expelled from one of Canada’s most prestigious schools – UCC for cheating or selling exams. Thus we cannot blame his Jewish wife after all, or can we?
Now here is when it gets “juicy” – Barbara Amiel was once married to Hungarian George Jonas ( sorry I have no idea of his religion although I know how relevant that is on this website)
George Jonas wrote an award winning book “By Person’s Unknown” – it was about Hungarian Peter Demeter who hired a contract killer to murder his wife in the early 70′s and he covered his butt by
“shopping for jewellery for her at a busy Mall” while she was bludgeoned to death in the garage with her 5 year old daughter inside the house. I read the book many years ago and I think the murderer nick named “Kacsa” might have been traced back to Hungary; can’t remember all the gory details.
Now good old non-Jewish Peter who must be 70+ years old by now is still in jail because while incarcerated, he tried to arrange the murder of his cousin (I worked with him in the 80′s) and also the murder of his lawyer’s daughter. Luckily both plots failed.
JA – Perhaps more info than you signed up for when you mentioned Conrad Black’s name I couldn’t
resist posting the “Hungarian Connection”
@Viking,
Well, according to YOUR definition of ‘traditional law abiding’, Conrad Black fits the bill. Mind you, I can not confirm whether he was breast fed or bottle fed…that might make a difference don’t you think?
Things that make you go hmm.
White collar crime can be just as devastating. Ask the people who got sucked up into the Enron scandal, Bernie Madoff scam…hold it, he’s a Jew…would that still count?
To me ‘law abiding citizens’, get up everyday to go to work. Pay their taxes, nice to their neighbors and generally not a menace to society. This could mean a mere ditch digger all the way up to the Queen.
Are you suggesting that all people who are raised in poverty, will grow up to be criminals? I believe it more has to do with the morals that you were taught, self control, role modals, love, personal pride etc rather than strictly money.
I believe that poverty may PRESENT opportunities that could harden a person. I do not agree that it should be used as an excuse.
Regarding your example of Andras, the former Magyar Garda member…I’m sure the family of the murder victim, wished he would have stolen her cell phone as opposed to stealing the life from her.
@Bobs,
“used to get a rise out of me”
I’m assuming you’re talking about Viking? If you ever need to talk…:))
bi-law: what an epic struggle between sanity and the overwhelming seductive power of mania. It’s like you’re at war with yourself.
-
As a professional in the music industry, to me a venue is a venue.I don’t really care who the clientele are as long as they’re behaving themselves, that the security guards are doing their job, and that the company pays their bills on time. Apart from that, the pub and nightclub scene (not seen) was not for me, because it was really just like going to the office. Unlike you apparently, I don’t need to be the centre of attention in order to maintain my identity.
-
I’m perfectly happy in small groups, because it’s easier to have a conversation. I guess for you, that would be a liability, because it doesn’t take long for you to run out of things to say, which really only leaves you with insults and abuse. I certainly wouldn’t buy you a drink, because you’d probably only spill it all over yourself and everyone else. What a waste.
-
The rest of your post really looked like the incoherent, deranged ranting of a person whose link with reality is becoming ever more tenuous. Are you aware that it just doesn’t make sense? Or that your accusations are clearly your own internal constructions?
-
Bystander: I’d have a drink with you. If you’re ever taking a detour through southern China, let me know.
oh…and bi-law. Again with the homosexuality rants? My god, it started as a joke, but now you’re actually making me think you do have some denial issues. You know, it’s ok to be gay. It does’t mean you have to parade down the street in black leather…that is, unless you’re taking part in a Magyar Garter, oops, I mean GARDA event. I have known lots of homosexual people who live perfectly normal lives. Think how much happier you would be if you just started being honest with yourself about it.
Fairy Cinaed you’re trying to pin your psycho sate of mind on me, however it’s clear to me that you’re the one with the problem, because people like you are too ignorant and manipulative to realise the obvious..
@Law if you think Dooley’s is a full on gay hacienda what the hell were you doing upstairs playing with a stick and balls?
“We would force these families out of their dwellings. Then, yes, we would transport these families to public order protection camps,” Mr Szegedi said.
Vona: “segregation would be a more productive educational tool.”
These proposals are like the internment of Japanese in the US, S. Africa’s apartheid, Germany’s Jewish Ghetto’s, forced boarding schooling of Aborigines in Australia and Native America’s in the US. All seen today as shameful and destructive episodes of racism. These examples and Jobbik’s proposals are not solutions, but rather acts of ignorance and prejudice.
Jobbik, the voice of fascist Hungary. Jobbik calls for “solutions” that summon the worst of humanities traits.
Imagine what these assholes would do if they were in the majority. They’d turn Hungary back to 1944 and the world away from her.
JA wrote: “997+1 = 998 ****D’OH!”
Yeah, I noticed after I wrote that, that, uh… 2
people were ‘undecided’; yeah, that’s the ticket.
The Tsar wrote: “Bystander: I’d have a drink with
you. If you’re ever taking a detour through southern
China, let me know.”
If the drinkers in China are anything like the group
of Turkish people I went out drinking with last
night, I’d better have a full meal first… My
recovery this morning is, well, slow.
And to think before I met these people I was worried
that as Muslims they didn’t DRINK!
The first criminals that should be put into a “ghetto” are the Socialist, because they are the biggest criminals in Hungary. The Socialist don’t want Jobbik’s wise and peaceful proposal, because they know that many of their top councilmen, ministers, banksters, judges, are in collaboration with the Roma and Jewish underworld (and, elite). Many of them would qualify to be placed into such zoning area’s (aka prisons, or closed off parole) for their past and new crimes.
I see what Jobbik is proposing as kind of like a closed off parole (A prison system for hardened criminals, where police parole the criminals). Not very different than America’s parole system, and federal work camps.
And, if Fidesz can’t act and do what they were elected to do and bring real change, and if they won’t take action against the Socialist for their years of crime and hate against the Hungarian people (and continued hate). And, if all their going to do is talk a-lot, and holler a-lot, and scream how their victory was “a revolution”, yet, doing nothing about Socialist hate, while at the same time working and even being bullied around by Socialist tyrants (who ruled and abused Hungarians for decades). Than, maybe Fidesz should put themselves in a “ghetto camp” for lying to the Hungarian people, and collaborating with criminals, who have hurt and damaged a once great nation. (how you’ve all forgotten).
@Bystander,
“uh… 2
people were ‘undecided’; yeah, that’s the ticket”
Do you really think that would be the case?
“Whom to choose? , Hmm…on the right hand, an articulate, educated, respectful and kind individual. On the left hand a….”
Bystander: In general, Asians have a low tolerance
to alcohol. Having said that, there is still that
same old tradition of business meetings really
being all about how drunk you can get and still
get the best of the deal.
-
All: The forced relocation of Aboriginal people in
Australia is one of the most shameful episodes in
the nation’s history. Many of the policies Jobbik
proposes in ‘handling’ the gypsy problems have
already been tried in Australia, and you know
what, it only made things worse. Now don’t try to
paint me as some bleeding heart on this.I’m not
saying criminals should not be brought to justice;
but the thing is justice goes a lot further than
punishment after the fact.Just as Australia’s
experience with the Aborigines, the Roma issue in
Hungary needs to be seen as a social issue BEFORE
a law and order issue.Approaching it solely as a
law and order issue is like putting the patch on
the wrong side of the hole.Yes I know throwing
money around solves nothing, but neither does
segregation.It only polarises the community even
further and causes hate to fester…it’s a
pointless idea, no matter how satisfying it might
seem.
-
I’ve said before that Roma issues should be seen
as an EU problem, which needs to be dealt with
collectively and cooperatively.In the meantime,
ramping up penalties and focusing on a punishment
model will do nothing but make things
worse.Perhaps though, that’s what the far right
wants.Nothing like a crisis to make your rhetoric
more compelling.
Hey it’s not unthinkable that there are 2 in 1000
crazy enough to be “undecided” as to whether
they’d like to have drinks with Law ‘n’ Mark…
THREE out of 1000 might be pushing it, however.
But just so you see how many crazies there are out
there, look at how many people don’t think man has
been to the MOON yet:
A 2000 poll conducted by the Russian Public
Opinion Fund found that 28% do not believe that
American astronauts have been on the Moon, and
this percentage is roughly equal in all social-
demographic groups.[11] In 2009, a poll conducted
by the British Engineering & Technology magazine
found that 25% of Britons do not believe that
humans have walked on the Moon.[12] Similarly, 25%
of Americans between the age of 18 and 25 are not
sure the landings happened.[13]
(From everyone’s favorite conspiracy-theory-site
Wikipedia)
@ Romatarian and Pete H
You have a great talent for putting things in perspective:
“Imagine what these assholes would do if they were in the majority. They’d turn Hungary back to 1944 and the world away from her.”
“What more evidence does anyone need that Vona and Jobbik is racist (and batshit crazy) than the proposal to segregate Roma in boarding schools and the idea of establishing Magyar Apartheid.”
To me ‘law abiding citizens’, get up everyday to go to work. Pay their taxes, nice to their neighbors and generally not a menace to society
justasking at September 3, 2010 5:13 AM
—
Yes, but the question was who belongs to the “traditionally law abiding”
It means that ‘bob’ see certain groups as not “traditionally law abiding”, which differs him from?
Of course Mr Morality, aka ‘bob’, is totally 100% “traditionally law abiding”
Like his friends, who by the way are being “kicked out” from their party, by even more “traditionally law abiding” citizens
Maybe we can have some special White Collar Work Camps for these “Rosszik”, now not so “traditionally law abiding”?
Difference in Australia is that the Aboriginals are
indigenous there, and the Hungarians are the
indigenous in the Carpathian basin. Gypsies will
always call themselves a gypo and don’t want to
integrate into society, but leech off social
welfare like blood suckers. Jobbik is proposing
these areas for the criminals not the innocent ones,
so stop exaggerating the situation and stick to the
facts you Neo Liberal conditioned big Fairy.
Jobbik is proposing these areas for the criminals not the innocent ones
Law at September 3, 2010 6:27 PM
—
But why exclusively for Roma then?
Cannot you at least put the Jews there also?
Have you ever met an honest Jew?
It doesn’t make any difference who is or is not
indigenous. The problem exists now. Exaggerating
the problem? Um, you’re the one who’s always going
on about how good, honest Hungarians are prisoners
in their own homes because of marauding packs of
bloodthirsty Gypsies, and who is talking about
civil war?
-
The more I see of your behaviour, the more I think
that perhaps Jobbik and their supporters should be
given a corner of Hungary that they can run
entirely on their own. For safety, we can even
build a 3 metre concrete wall topped with razor-
wire. I’m sure most Hungarians would even spring
for the sentry towers, dogs and a minefield or two
just for good measure to make sure none those
awful Gypsies, Jews, Gays, Liberals, Muslims,
Feminists or Foreigners can get in. I figure, it’s
only fair if Jobyarorszag gets 1% of Hungary’s
total land for every percent of election-share it
won…approx 14,000 square kilometres. Sounds like
a good deal to me. I figure that seeing
globalisation and multiculturalism are so bad,
that you won’t need internet, phones or
television, because we all know how evil their
influences are.
-
Actually, now that I think of it, maybe you should
ask the North Koreans for some advice in setting
up your little utopia. I’m sure they’d only be too
happy to oblige.
@olga
per·spec·tive [per-spek-tiv] Show IPA
–noun
6.
the faculty of seeing all the relevant data in a meaningful relationship: Your data is admirably detailed but it lacks perspective.
@Cináed
I’m sorry but the comparison with the enforced schooling of Aborigines does not hold water for a good dozen or so reasons. Chief of which are the twin concepts of dependance and integration.
The Aborigines were forced to integrate in a society they wanted no part of. They wanted NOTHING to do with it, and just wanted to be left alone. They didn’t wish to be integrated, but neither did they wish to be dependant on it, they did not wish to leech off the society that they held in contempt.
I can totally respect that.
They said, “Stuff your education.” But also “Stuff you healthcare, stuff your housing, stuff your benefits. We don’t want to pay taxes, but we don’t want the products of the taxes of others either.”
This is how the Roma case is different. Because the current state of affairs is the absence of integration coupled with a demand for dependance. Frequently supplemented with criminality.
Around election time the MDF issued a proposal to extend school hours from 7am to 7pm and make schools open to Roma over the vacations as well. The principle was exactly the same, the recognition that education was the only way anything was going to change for them, that the obstacle to this was chiefly Roma culture and parenting; it was all about taking children away from the influence of their parents, and do you know what? The Left LOVED the idea. Of course they did.
The Left think that taking children away from their parents’ influence is their job!
bob: I like what you wrote in your last
post…especially the bit at the end about left
and right politics. That’s the problem with
political idealism and the desire by many to find
a descriptive category. You were pretty much right
that I tend to be in the centre-left area because
I do believe in things like government provided
healthcare and education, and because of my
sociology training I do look for social solutions
rather than reactive policies. Having said that, I
do think that the left as well as the right can
get carried away by its own hysteria, and I do
understand the progression that leads many to move
further right. In the end though, I agree with you
that the problems exist now, and they will
continue to exist as long as communities continue
to divide themselves. So I ask myself then, what
is the solution? …and I have to say, there is no
‘silver bullet’, but rather, what is required is a
lot of patience, a lot of commitment and a sense
of cooperation to begin the process of
reconciliation and to stick with it long enough to
see results. The search for quick fixes, or magic
answers is only going to make matters worse, while
the inflammatory rhetoric just deepens
resentment.On the other hand, a lot of the
platitudes about ‘respecting human rights’ is not
much more than excuse to do nothing. I agree that
it is time to take action, but I also know that
the use of force and segregation is only going to
end in disaster.
bob: evidently we posted around the same time so
my last post was slightly out of sync.
-
Anyway, yes, the Roma issue is not analogous to
the Australian Aboriginal issue in many
ways.However, they are similar in the context of
what has happened more recently. You’re right to
say that the Aborigines resisted the Europeans,
however, the forced dependence at the beginning
grew to a learned dependence later; so much so
that many of the anti-Aboriginal justifications
are much the same ie: they won’t work, they just
sit on the dole, drink alcohol and fight. So
regardless of the original reasons, the modern
symptoms are much the same. The real difference I
think is that Australia is so BIG, that
concentrations of Aboriginal people tend to be a
long way from the ‘whiter’ cities.However, if you
look at regional centres like Cairns, Darwin,
Alice-Springs, or Mt Isa, you can make distinct
comparisons on this issue with Budapest or
Miskolc.Personally, I don’t see the point of
arguing about what started the whole thing,
because it doesn’t change what is happening
now.Human behaviour is hardly rational at the best
of times, but in cases like this is an evolution
of social norms that reinforce cycles of
dependency and a loss of a sense self-
empowerment.In that sense, I think the idea could
also be extended to the wider Hungarian community,
which I think also by extension that the EU as a
whole needs to play a greater role in assisting
Hungary in its bid for self-actualisation.
“criminal zones” get it? Why do you keep twisting
the facts? The criminals will be separated and the
honest gypsy families will still reside within
normal communities.
@Cináed
I would also argue that the Australian case is one in which the demographics are completely opposite. In which the European numbers have sky rocketed, while the Aboriginal ones (if I am correct) dwindled. From an economic perspective this is sustainable if the, as you say, dependants are aborigines and the revenue producers are the majority Europeans.
In Hungary the opposite is the case. Magyars are leaving, dying or not reproducing. While Roma families with under half a dozen children are, as ever, the minority.
I also wanted to touch upon somethign else you said:
The more I see of your behaviour, the more I think that perhaps Jobbik and their supporters should be given a corner of Hungary that they can run entirely on their own
Cináed at September 3, 2010 7:12 PM
I think perhaps you may be more correct than you know. Conscious that Fidesz have stolen much of their constituency Jobbik is desparate to get council control in August in at least some small regions (BAZ) so as to do exactly this. “Do it their way.” And then use this as something to point to.
Incidently I recall seeing in the Winter a Mokka segment where a local school chief was speaking to a representative of the education department which was prosecuting him. He was being defended in court by Gaudi who was also there. His crime, was that in his area Roma were being taught separately.
It didn’t matter that the Roma children’s parents had volunteered for this separation.
It didn’t matter that what was being done was entirely in line with EU law (which Gaudi tried to explain superseded the Hungarian law that was being used to prosecute).
It didn’t matter that these children then performed three times better than the Roma average nationally.
No he was being prosecuted for, “segregation.” The label mattered, not the facts, not the realities. This is the Left all over, in my view.
Finally, when you say, “On the other hand, a lot of the platitudes about ‘respecting human rights’ is not much more than excuse to do nothing.” I think you are spot on. I would add that what compounds this is the way the Left behaves as if they “own” human rights. Which is presumably why they seem to have no qualms denying human rights to those who do not agree with the Left wing narrative.
What I read here this week, expresses it better than I could.
http://www.libertiesalliance.org/2010/09/01/the-international-civil-liberties-alliance-and-human-rights/
[Obviosuly I meant October, not August, above]
@Cináed:
You described very succinctly the Aborigines’ problems – many Indians in the US are in a similar situation, I’ve seen some places where they live.
Now at least bob has shown his real face – jobos are all the same it seems, Apartheid is a very good idea for them …
PS: We shouldn’t forget the Blacks in the USA – they also still have a long way to go. Just look at the hate that is being thrown at Obama …
bob: yes, if you look at Australia as a whole, the
demographics tend in that direction. However, as I
mentioned if you look at the regional centres, it
is not so different.I should add that in terms of
absolute numbers that the Aboriginal population
has grown significantly in the past 10 or so
years.Again, what makes it seem so small is the
larger overall population of the country, and the
sheer size of its land area. In any case, again,
what I am saying is that while there are
differences between the two, there are still
similarities that are worth commenting on.Cairns
itself, (not the Cairns regional council area) is
a good example because it shares similar
demographic trends to Hungary with a growing
indigenous population and a ‘brain drain’ of
younger people away.
-
Some time ago the Mayor of Cairns offered free
transportation to any homeless Aboriginal people
to go back to their places of origin.(many come to
Cairns from outlying communities for the hospital
or for court-cases.They often have no family
there, so live on the streets.)Quite a few went
voluntarily and were given a bonus.The civil
liberties union jumped up and down so much, that
the city council had to charter flights for the
people to fly back to Cairns so they could resume
being homeless.Idiotic.
-
I didn’t know about the idea of Jobbik taking over
BAZ county.I kind of grew attached to Miskolc when
I was working there.Is it precisely because of its
high Gypsy population that they want it?
-
@Cináed
I don’t think they will gain the county, but certainly they have their eye on sub-municiplaities. If it concerns you then I wouldn’t worry, I think the chances are slim.
Thanks for the info on the Australian situation my knowledge of recent events is limited. But I think my point still stands fundamentally. Australia is a highly productive nation, it has the resources to tolerate a demographic drop-in-the-ocean of dependants. In Hungary the situation is dramatically different. It is the source of much of our problems, and as I said, Hungary’s present is I think, Europe’s future. Which is why all this sermonizing about Hungary “looking to the past” is so ridiculous.
I forgot to mention previously that the argument you valued earlier about right v. left and the classification of the right as pathology by the left, was a result of a very interesting piece of reading over my holiday.
http://www.amazon.com/World-Turned-Upside-Down-Global/dp/1594033757
bob: thanks for the link. I meant to add before
that too often I have seen the misapplication of
human rights rhetoric in a way that actually ends
up disadvantaging the groups in question even
more…hence my example about flying people back
to poverty so as to respect their right to be poor
and homeless. Are you aware of the Howard
government’s Northern Territory intervention? This
was an example of a ‘typically rightist’ action,
which was of course roundly criticise by the left
and the civil rights movement. I have to say
though, that I think it was very much the right
thing to do and that it was desperately
needed.Basically the government sent in the army
to do a ‘census’ of all of the people, their
social arrangements and their health
status.Although criticised by the left at the
time, they have somewhat grudgingly come to accept
it as a necessity.
-
wolfi: I think you should cut bob some slack. He’s
not a ‘typical Jobbo’. You disagree with him,
that’s ok, but he’s not a raving lunatic, nor
would I call his posts incoherent, blithering
nonsense. He deserves respect even if just for
being one of maybe two right-wing posters who can
justify their positions in full sentences and for
using their brains to come up with a position
instead of just reading from the ‘pointy-heads-r-
us’ cue cards.
bob: last post before I call it a night. yes, I
agree that in the Australian context, the nation
is better positioned to deal with the Aboriginal
issues as long as it doesn’t get overpoliticised
again. I also share your view about what is
happening in Hungary as potentially being Europe’s
future at least to some extent. That is why I’ve
been saying that the Roma issue in Hungary is not
just about what Hungary should be doing about
it…it needs to include the EU as a whole to come
to a collective solution for the problem. It’s
easy to point fingers at Hungary and say ‘spend
more on social programmes’ but that money has to
come from somewhere.I also don’t see the benefit
of bigger countries just ‘dumping their social
rubbish’ on poorer countries. I also agree that
the past holds no answers for Hungary’s future. It
needs new ideas and new solutions. At this stage
though, I really don’t think Jobbik holds either.
@Cináed:
Your last sentence brings it to the point:
“At this stage though, I really don’t think Jobbik holds either.”
Bob seems to think otherwise- that’s why I can’t agree with him …
PS: He is a jobo -in a bad mood I’d call him a closet Nazi ….
@Law, “”criminal zones” get it? Why do you keep twisting
the facts? The criminals will be separated and the
honest gypsy families will still reside within
normal communities.”
The Jobbo who proposed this said “We would force these families out of their dwellings, yes,”said Csanad Szegedi, a Jobbik MEP and the party’s vice-chairman. “Then, yes, we would transport these families to public order protection camps.
“At these camps, there would be a chance to return to civilised society. Those who abandon crime, make sure their children attend school, and participate in public works programmes, they can reintegrate,” he continued, adding that he hoped the first camp would be established near the town of Miskolc.
Detainees would be allowed to return to their homes only if they demonstrated to a special town committee that they had changed their ways. Those who failed to do so, explained Mr Szegedi, could spend the rest of their lives in the camps. (http://www.scotsman.com/news/Move-to-force-Roma-into.6510874.jp)
So Jobbos are not just talking about the criminals but their entire families.
And if you are dealing with criminals you lock them in a prison. Reform and better fund the Hungarian justice system if it is not working. But don’t setup Roma detention camps in Hungary, where you mix criminals with families. And wouldn’t these camps need guards, medical facilities, fences, etc. They would hardly be free.
Currently their terrorizing the people of Hungary
and Europe using our tax dollars, we could introduce
them to work ethic, morals and to have some common
sense to live a productive lifestyle, Jobbik do
care! Not like the corrupt system which has failed
dismally.
All Roma are terrorizing Hungary? So, you are ready to give Roma jobs? That would be a move in the right direction.
Yes. Slovakia did! It worked!
The Slovak veteran that killed eight gypsies was not sold on it…
It would be better if all you zionazis picking on Hungarians went home to nazi izrael and told your own people to stop murdering Palestinian babies.
nazi germany == nazi israel
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/GazaHolo/index.html
@LYNCHthe Liar:
Sorry- I’ll be coming to Hungary again tomorrow – to my second home …
I’m so glad I won’t be meeting you there – please stay out of the country -it’s much nicer without you …
PS:
That goes for all jobos here!
Here the official homepage of Mr Szegedi:
http://www.szegedicsanad.eu/index.php/english/3143.html
From Csanád Szegedi’s homepage:
“we have to put a stop to positive discrimination of extremely high criminality rated Gypsy population”
So, not only cutting the funding to German language theaters then
I just wonder what this “positive discrimination” is doing, then how many Roma do you see on high positions in Hungary?
“positive discrimination” is *not* to provide:
-
The Constitution of the Republic of Hungary
[Act XX of 1949 as revised and restated by Act XXXI of 1989]
as of 1 January 2010
.
Chapter I
.
General Provisions
.
Article 16.
The Republic of Hungary shall make special efforts to ensure a secure subsistence, education and the raising of the youth, and shall protect the interests of the youth.
.
Article 17.
The Republic of Hungary shall provide for those in need through a wide range of welfare measures.
.
Article 18.
The Republic of Hungary shall recognize and implement everyone’s right to a healthy environment
–
Csanád Szegedi plan to do this for the Roma part of the Hungarian population, by putting them in “designated areas”, which will be guarded.
A more traditional word for this is “Concentration Camp”
The first use of a “Concentration camp” was during the South African, or Boer War, 1899 to 1901. The British used the method of rounding up the women and children of the Boer fighters, and holding them in barbed wire camps
Did Jobbik expect this reaction to their proposal of “Gypsy Concentration Camps” ?
The German-Hungarian newspaper Pester Llyod calls it what it is:
http://www.pesterlloyd.net/2010_35/35jobbikkandidat/35jobbikkandidat.html
For those who can read German, there is another interesting site about Hungary:
http://pusztaranger.wordpress.com/
“Wiederholungstäter mit Romaherkunft die Staatsbürgerschaft abzuerkennen und sie außerhalb der Städte in Lager zu stecken”
or in English:
“Revoke repeat offenders with Roma origin citizenship and to stick them in camps outside the cities”
—
(From Wolfi’s link, PesterLloyd)
And where can you expatriate people who are only Hungarian citizens when you remove their Hungarian citizenship?
You then revoke their Hungarian Passport, so where can they go, if they do not have any other passport/citizenship?
How many Roma with foreign citizenship live in Hungary and are ‘Wiederholungstäter/repeat offenders’?
And actually, how do you check if an ‘Hungarian’ has (not!) Roma origin?
Or (not!) Jewish for that matter (just when checking, getting 2 answers for price of one)?
Hm, maybe I should open up this new business line, being a Viking and therefore the most Aryan that the African Jew Hitler and his side-kick Göring could find to admire…
Already during the Communist period in Hungary in the beginning of the 1980s the appearance of the underground punk sub culture, with the participation of extremist musical groups, was essential to the development and success of an anti-state democratic youth movement
These in turn facilitated the creation of an anti-communist and anti-authoritarian popular mentality
What remains is the messages, like “Gypsy-free zone”, which became a slogan of racist skinheads in mid 1990s
Let us take one example:
Mos-oi was formed in late 1982 or in early 1983
Mos-oi was a first skinhead band in Hungary, and they had one gig and the band members went to prison. Mos-oi lyrics was hard, angry and anti-social at this time. Some lyrics was racist like the
-
“Immigrants’ Share” (Bevándorlók bére):
The flamethrower is the only weapon I need to win
All gypsy adults and children we’ll exterminate
But we can kill all of them at once in unison
When it is done we can advertise: Gypsy-free zone
-
“Jobbik” blame ‘gypsycrime’ the last 20 years as cause for the atrocities against Roma in today’s Hungary?
This lyric is from 1982, 8 years before the transition
Nothing new here, just old stuff
Viking, Wolfi, Dobutca and Bystander you’re a Jewish Nazi’s, we’re coming to get you to beat your brains out.
KillBill@Such stupid comments only serves to flame the hatred,fu.. off-you are just as bad as those you pretend to despise.
In my opinion you are a deliberate agitator out to discredit real comments,typical zio-nazi tactics.
@ Ricsi
Re: “In my opinion you are a deliberate agitator out to discredit real comments,typical zio-nazi tactics. ”
I thinkyou should also include LHVJ, Law and whatever name Elle posts under.
Farkas Laszlo surely represents the best of a Hungarian citizen and her attack on him serves no purpose other than to discredit everyone and everything that an ultra right wing party stands for
I don’t see “any of you people” defend your own Patriot or has he lost that title because he refuses to meet your subjective definition of Patriotism aka hate mongering?
Would be nice to read your opinion about all the coverage JOBBIK is getting in the last few days in the Western Media world wide concerning the proposed Roma ghettos
[Jake and Elwood are caught in a traffic jam caused by the Nazis.]
Jake:[To a patrolling officer] Hey, what’s going on?
Officer: Ah, those bums won there court case so their marching today.
Jake: What bums?
Officer: The fucking Nazi party.
Elwood: Illinios Nazis!
Jake: I hate Illinios Nazis.
Head Nazi: Heil Hitler!
Nazis: Heil Hitler!
[Elwood drives the car up to the bridge and towards the Nazis]
Head Nazi: Tenhuit!
[Elwood speeds up. The Nazis are forced to jump into the water below]
Head Nazi: Perpen Fuhrer?
Perpen Fuhrer: Yes Sir!
Head Nazi: Perpen Fuhrer get that cars licence plate number. We’re gonna kill that son of a bitch
-
Head Nazi: What’d you find out?
2nd Nazi: Okay. I called a friend at the Motor Vehicle department. That licence plate is like a rash all over the computer. The car belongs to a known traffic menace.
Head Nazi: What’s his name?
2nd Nazi: His name is Elwood Blues. He’s got a record a mile long. And, he’s a catholic
-
[Two Nazi cars hide in an alley way. Jake and Elwood drive past.]
Head Nazi: There they are.
[The Nazi cars pursues Jake and Elwood.]
-
Head Nazi: Faster!
[At the last minute they see the end of an unfinished bridge. Elwood stops the car and then it backflips over the chasing Nazi car.]
Nazi: Holy shit!
[The Nazi car continues to accelerate and launches off the bridge]
Nazi: I’ve always loved you
-
http://corky.net/scripts/bluesBrothers.html
Olga@Once again I will waste precious moments replying to you,though it will be to no avail for sure. I have no bone to grind with Farkas,though his wishful utopia is a bit naive,as for Elle and her ‘comments’ I really did not see that spat so can’t really offer an opinion-not my battle.
You however continually fail to recognise the reallity from your safe hole in Canada (?I think?)whilst we here in Hungary face up to day to day problems-As for the western media-Do you really still read that propaganda and believe everything? So naive of you,read up on what your own Gov is doing in Vancouver etc.. with those SriLankans seeking a better life or Sarkozy and his Roma problem in France.
No reply necessary for it will not be answered for certain
@ Ricsi,
What has the case of the Gypsies being deported from France, have to do with a boat load of illegal Sri Lankans brought over to Canada on a boat owned by the known terrorist group called the Tigers?
Sri Lanka does not have ‘special’ travel documents with Canada that the EU shares.
So, that makes them illegal immigrants. How did you expect Canada to respond?
I personally wish that our Immigration Department would have met them at the 200 mile zone, threw on a bunch of immigration forms for them and then turned them around…pointing back to the direction that they came.
That’s just me though. I’m a Conservative.
@ Justasking
I completely agree with you about the Sri Lankan situation so that must make me a Conservative (?}
Pretty good example of comparing apples and oranges while trying to muddle the issues
Do you no find it beyond comprehension that people who are completely focus on Israel’s foreign policy and are not Jewish, Israeli or Palestinians are the same people who object to other Hungarians living abroad to voice opinions about the country?
I keep getting emails with article links about
JOBBIK and the Roma issues since last week – with various notes asking me “what’s going on in Hungary?” while my girlfriend in France gets similar emails asking her about Sarkozy’s actions deporting the Roma – so I am curious if any of your friends are doing that to you
BTW the newspapers fail to mention that JOBBIK is a minority party and if you don’t know what’s going on, you could assume the Interment Camps are being built any day now.
@Olga,
Yes, you are beginning to fall under my Conservative spell…HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!
As for me getting e-mails from friends ‘wondering what’s going on in Hungary’ Nope. My English friends barely talk about Canadian politics let alone show an interest in international politics.
Half my family and most of the Hungarians I know in my home town read Kuruc faithfully everyday. They agree with this type of approach towards some of the more violent individuals within the Gypsy community.
Hell, at my older sisters wedding last weekend after some of the guests had left, this topic came up.
My position was that it is an EU issue and not just each individual country’s issue. That way of thinking passes the buck and nothing gets resolved.
The people that I have met and talked to regarding the ‘Gypsy situation’ are so fed up that all their emotions are on the surface. The lack of action over the years by you know who, has spiralled so out of control that this reaction is the result.
Gypsy crimes are getting bolder and more violent. Something drastic has to be done immediately to start reining it all in.
Question is…what?
No longer is it acceptable to just sit back and try and be politically correct so as to not hurt a Gypsies “feelings’ while leaving other members of that society living in fear.
Kedves Ricsi,
So much of the reality breaks my heart, and yet that is not what I want to share with the rest of you; that is why I have avoided negativity. People who know about and care for Hungary already have their own heartaches!
I think the best we can do for each other is to be supportive. To plan and hope ,(perhaps naively as you say) for a constructive future is part of a life force, an “elan vital” that keeps our people going. We’re not going to be snuffed! We are good for another thousand years; I just hope that it will be a better life than what our ancestors knew.
Gypsy crimes are getting bolder and more violent. Something drastic has to be done immediately to start reining it all in
Question is…what?
No longer is it acceptable to just sit back and try and be politically correct so as to not hurt a Gypsies “feelings’ while leaving other members of that society living in fear
justasking at September 5, 2010 9:47 PM
—
I live in fear that a madman should start shouting at my children schools
The chance/risk that person will be of Roma origin is rather small
It is very much traditional Law&Order issues, tackled with good health care/treatment for the mentally ill, so they do not run around and hurt more than other people’s feelings
If we look at all our favorite example country, the US, increasing prison population has hardly lowered the crime rate to an acceptable level
And just that is what “Jobbik” proposes, in addition to its strict anti-ziganism suggestions
I can still remember when I was in San Fransisco and in every street corner was an obviously mental ill person hurling abuse over real or imaginary passers-by
This is what makes me nervous, not the skin-colour of the real passers-by
-
True that there must be a more EU-wide involvement for the Roma issue, but it will not mean that Miskolc will be a ‘gypsy free zone’
Just more demand, rules and help for integration and not segregation
The reason for more EU-involvement is that even Sweden is sinning here by deporting ‘East-European’ street beggars inside the allowed 90 days
Kedves Farkas Lászlo@No offence intended mate,I know your heart is in the right place though I may not always agree with your point of view-this is what makes life interesting,no?
However I got fed up of reading the usual obnoxious liberal dribble written by the likes of Olga,from her sanctuary in Canada,so out of touch with reallity here as usual,my point was that they have there own problems and are no more innocent than Hungary in these troubled times.
Thanks for your usual courteous reply.
Just an observation…I am presently looking across at my neighbor’s house which was burgled on Sunday night.
The carpenters and locksmiths are there at the moment repairing damage done by the intruders.
This is the reality in Hungary today.
Probably the work of gypsies. No work for anyone in the villages and prices are rising on everything at a steady rate every month.
Desperation time and the government and all the other assorted cronies that try to administer a fair regime in this country have failed miserably!
I am presently looking across at my neighbor’s house which was burgled on Sunday night.
…
Probably the work of gypsies
HomeAlone at September 6, 2010 1:02 PM
—
You did not see them, even when they burglar your neighbors house in the middle of the night?
.
I recognize this theme, with the same writing style from other posts under different aliases
Why do the never burglar your house, when they seem to burglar all the houses in your little village?
“Just an observation…”
@ Ricsi
Re: ” obnoxious liberal dribble written by the likes of Olga,from her sanctuary in Canada”
Over 80% of the Hungarian electorate did not vote for JOBBIK so there must be quite a number of misguided Liberals living in Hungary.
Don’t waste your time commenting on what I think because it matters not. Concentrate on the Western World’s eyes on Hungary right now with all their “obnoxious liberal dribble” referring to you guys as a bunch Nazis. The way I see it, it’s JOBBIK vs the Democratic World.
BTW, strange how you don’t think that LHVJ should concentrate on Hungary and not worry about what’s happening in the Gaza Strip and Palestine since he is neither Jewish, Israeli or Palestinian and he is certainly located in a safe sanctuary while posting never ending shit on a subject that has nothing on earth to do with Hungary.
Also interesting to note how KM was screaming about Human Rights violations in Palestine (I certainly admired her for that) yet her silence so far is deafening when it comes to proposed Human Right violations in her own country. I am sure there is a perfectly logical explanation and she will voice her outrage any minute now.
I am used to political parties grandstanding prior to elections so I am guessing this Roma segregation idea is designed to get votes in some areas of Hungary next month
No one denies “Roma Crime” has to be addressed as it won’t just go away – it’s the “JOBBIK solution” that’s shocking for people who value Democracy.
olga: what makes KM an even bigger hypocrite is
that she used to make such a big noise about
domestic violence and abuses BY Hungarians of other
Hungarians (namely Hungarian men abusing women), a
cause which is eminently worthy, but which she
seems to have abandoned.
@ Cinaed
A British politician described KM as one of Europe’s leading neo-fascists, so I gather she decided there was more publicity and photo-ops being a JOBBIK spokesperson that championing boring
old topics like Human Rights and Domestic Abuse.
Hard to reconcile the woman she was to the woman she has become. You know a lot more about world politics than I do – let me know if you can think of one other politician who abandoned everything s/he stood for in order to gain notoriety
Olga…hmm. That would be a pretty long list. Where
do you start?
oh god…someone’s house was broken into. It MUST
be Gypsies. The old lady who lives across the road
from my wife’s mother was once confronted by a
group of ‘policemen’ who asked her if they could
come inside to make some inquiries. They tied her
up and ransacked her house.
-
They were caught later, and guess what? They
weren’t gypsies.
-
Oh but wait, I’m sure LHVJ will be along to say it
never happened. I sometimes wonder what would
happen if the nutjobs here really did get what
they wanted…camps for Gypsies, a war with
Slovakia, a default on their international
loans…wow, what a utopia. Bring on the new
world.
The odds are that it wasn’t a Hungarian but a
gypsy, majority of Hungarians wouldn’t attempt to
break and enter because of the fact that they
would in vision themselves as a Gypo.
There appears to be a different mindset for the
average Hungarian compared to a western intruder,
unfortunately westerners just can’t comprehend
that fact that gypos are running wild like crazed
un caged animals , that’s why Ricsi wrote , no
need to reply OLGA!
But you can’t help yourself yet alone control that
devil within you, and here is the Fairy Cinaed who
enters the scene like Tinkerbell to the rescue :-
)) What an amazing performance by these warped
characters.
bob here had a link to a book by British author Melanie Phillips:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanie_Phillips
That’s a very interesting woman …
Just a few remarks about her:
She seems to be a very right wing Jew – against Muslims of course (she wrote the book “Londonistan”), especially against Palestinians – also against Darwin, against homosexuals, against everything left …
She called Obama a Marxist and a Muslim (wonder how that goes together ?) and of course she supported the Iraq war …
Now I wonder:
Does bob agree with her ?
What would Law and LYNCH think about her ? (presuming they are able to think at all …)
Phillips has called the Palestinians “a terrorist population”, and argued that while “individual Palestinians may deserve compassion, their cause amounts to Holocaust denial as a national project”
-
Well, I think she is sadly not alone in her opinion
Just compare how many ‘Hungarians’ regards its neighbors of Roma origin, and want to treat them as the Israelis treat the Palestinians
It is easy to hate what you do not want to like, just because you want to feel superior
Who gives a flying fuck about her? There has been
crypto-Jews for centuries, people like her are out
to divide and rule through deception.
@Law:
Ask bob about her …
“I forgot to mention previously that the argument you valued earlier about right v. left and the classification of the right as pathology by the left, was a result of a very interesting piece of reading over my holiday.
http://www.amazon.com/World-Turned-Upside-Down-Global/dp/1594033757
bobscountrybunker at September 3, 2010 9:23 PM “
@Wolfi: I’m not enamored of the book. It’s logic or the arguments therein. I put this against something like “The Mind in the Cave” by David Lewis William and wonder that a decent market economy can indeed support many competing mindsets and markets (the environment others like Jobbik would love to rub snuff out).
I’ll get back to this thread tomorrow (up at 05h00 for for a morning call) with why I hate bobs….’s book.
@Law
As usual, I have no idea if you are serious saying that Hungarians don’t commit B & E because it’s a Roma crime, but that’s ok, I can live without understanding your assertions
Re: “that’s why Ricsi wrote , no need to reply OLGA! But you can’t help yourself yet alone control that devil within you etc”
Next time you see Ricsi, please apologize to him for me and let him know the Devil possessed me otherwise I would not have disobeyed his instructions.
I wish the opinions of the Three Musketeers (you, LHVJ and Elle) could be read by the Hungarian electorate instead of just people who don’t have the vote. I believe you are the “dream team ” to scare the average Hungarian into voting for “anyone but JOBBIK”
I’m looking forward to Vándorló’s critique.
If only because I am presumptuous enough to think that the words:
very right wing Jew…
Palestine…
Israel…
Will not figure as the primary content of his criticism, as it does ever so predictably from Messrs. Wolfi and “Viking” who prove once again their almost mirror symmetry to the individuals here they despise. *sigh*
Oh and incidentally, according to all four Islamic schools of jurisprudence, President Obama (as the son of a Muslim) is incontrovertibly: a Muslim. His denial is irrelevant – I stress – according to all forms of Islamic law.
This is why things like this happen:
Pak Minister wants Obama to be “leader of all Muslims”
Islamabad, Sep 2 (PTI) A Pakistani minister wants US President Barack Obama to offer Eid prayers at Ground Zero in New York and become the “Amir-ul-Momineen” or Caliph of Muslims. Minister of State for Industries Ayatullah Durrani, who belongs to the ruling Pakistan People”s Party, said the upcoming Eid-ul-Fitr festival, expected to be observed on September 11, would be a “golden opportunity” for Obama to offer Eid prayers and declare himself the leader of all Muslims.
But more accurately Obama, having rejected Islam, is a Muslim apostate. And if you don’t know what Shariah law says should happen to an apostate, perhaps you should find out.
@ Bob and Vandorlo
I shall let the two of you decide Islamic Law as it relates to Obama but I want to draw your attention to what Ann Coulter said, in case either of you missed her pearls of wisdom:
“The nonsense about President Obama being a Muslim has got to stop,” Coulter wrote on the conservative website TownHall.com. “I rise to defend him from this absurd accusation by pointing out that he is obviously an atheist.”
So Islamic Law or not, the ultimate threat to the hysterical Right-Wing Americans must be an Atheist.
@olga
@ Bob and Vandorlo
I shall let the two of you decide Islamic Law as
it relates to Obama…
So Islamic Law or not, the ultimate threat to the
hysterical Right-Wing Americans must be an
Atheist.
olga at September 7, 2010 1:55 AM
Obama says he is a Christian, so to Christians he
should be a a Christian.
In truth I think Coulter is probably right about
him. However, neither of these positions matter as
far as Muslim law is concerned. To the Muslim world,
he is a Muslim.
But given your use of the phrase, “hysterical Right-
Wing Americans” olga, shall we take it that you are
a believer in Hilary Clinton’s, “vast right-wing
conspiracy”?…
@ Bob
re: “shall we take it that you are
a believer in Hilary Clinton’s, “vast right-wing
conspiracy”?…”
Absolutely agree – it was a rather dramatic phrase she coined when the Bill Clinton/Monika affair came to light. I would have though she’d forget that phrase given the circumstances.
However, the Clinton affair was a conspiracy, just like the present “vast left-wing conspiracy” dedicated to exposing the the never ending Right Wing “Family Values” politicians for various sexual transgression although the Right scored big with John Edwards.
Cheating on a wife who is dying of cancer and fathering a baby with the mistress must trump having a tawdry fling with an anti-gay politician having sex in a man’s washroom or any other scandal the Left could come up with.
IMHO, American politics is unbelievably dirty as far exposing individual politicians’ personal lives and hurting their innocent families in the process, so I would say both parties are doing a fine job as far as “conspiring” to discredit each other.
I guess there is no sexual scandal available on Obama, so the Muslim thing and the fake birth certificate will just have to do.
Off topic – this is my favourite Ann Coulter quote concerning Canada : “better hope the United States does not roll over one night and crush them. They are lucky we allow them to exist on the same continent. “
“In the same way that a child born to a Jewish
mother is a Jew, according to Jews. Even if, say
they covert to another faith, like, erm, to pick a
name at random: Christ did.” (bob)
-
wow bob, you could get yourself into a lot of
trouble making comments like that around here. Not
that I’m saying I disagree with you…
-
Although, did Christ really convert? I guess you
could say he converted to himself.
bi-law: I see you’re still exploring the fairy
possibility. Well, it shows how committed you are
to the denial of your own sexuality. Perhaps it is
time to renovate your closet…it seems you need a
bit more space in there. In the meantime, you just
hang on until your next Magyar Garter
meeting…then you’ll have a chance to wear all
your shiny black leather. Be sure to take LHVJ with
you as your side-kick Robin. I’m sure he’s dying
for some Androgynous Action.
But more accurately Obama, having rejected Islam, is a Muslim apostate. And if you don’t know what Shariah law says should happen to an apostate, perhaps you should find out.
bobscountrybunker at September 7, 2010 12:27 AM
—
Some Abrahamic scriptures (Judaism: Deuteronomy 13:6–10) and Islam: al-Bukhari, Diyat, bab 6) demand the death penalty for apostates
.
Good for Obama his Mother was not a Jew, then he would have had double death penalties hanging over him…
@Bobs – “To the Muslim world, he is a Muslim”. I’m still looking for the “Muslim world” on a map. Having lived among Muslims, I find that Muslims are as divided on most things (including the interpretation of their religion) as any other people.
“All Muslims believe that a son born to a Muslim father is a Muslim”
While it is stated in the Koran, that’s not necessarily what all Muslims believe. Most Muslims are pragmatic enough to accept that Obama and others like him, born in non-Muslim countries (to a Christian mother), have the freedom to decide on their own religion.
“Who gets to decide who is a Muslim?
Muslims.
Or non-Muslims.”
This is a more interesting question. The most fanatical Muslims believe that they can decide this issue. Much of the violence comes about because a small minority of such Muslims believe it is alright to kill someone who is not Muslim, or “not Muslim enough”.
What is surprising is that, in many ways, you seem to similarly think that you can determine if a person should be considered Muslim or not, based on how much they conform to what you know of the Quran. You once wrote that it was the duty of a “true Muslim” to kill non-believers (or something like that). Most Muslims I know (& many I don’t) would not take something like that literally, or even accept that all aspects of Sharia law is appropriate for these times. They would take exception to being considered non-Muslim by you or anyone else.
@Cináed
Indeed so, which is why much Catholic theology
tortuously attempts to maintain that the first
Christian wasn’t Christ (a person circumcised in
Judaism, who performed his Bar Mitzvah, and taught
in the temple, and only “Christened” by John the
Baptist at the age of 33); but that it was the
Virgin Mary. Thus obviating the question.
However if this choice is controversial, I can
simply replace it with the names of the 12
apostles. Each a Jew under Jewish law, but a
Christian by choice.
Most modern scholarship recognizes that had it not
been for the profound influence of St Paul
Christianity would have remained what it was: a
minority heretical Jewish sect, that maintained
that the Messiah (a Jewish concept) had come,
while the majority of Jews (who still await the
Messiah’s arrival today) did not.
@Curious george
I’m still looking for the “Muslim world” on a map.
Having lived among Muslims, I find that Muslims
are as divided on most things (including the
interpretation of their religion) as any other
people.
“All Muslims believe that a son born to a Muslim
father is a Muslim”
While it is stated in the Koran, that’s not
necessarily what all Muslims believe. Most Muslims
are pragmatic enough to accept that Obama and
others like him, born in non-Muslim countries (to
a Christian mother), have the freedom to decide on
their own religion.
A analogy: I think we can agree that most European Catholics have no problem with barrier methods of contraception. I don’t for one.
But the Catholic church, the authority of Catholicism, as we all know: does.
So just because so many Catholic people hold this belief, doesn’t make it a Catholic belief.
To quote you again:
“I find that Muslims are as divided on most things (including the interpretation of their religion) as any other people… …Most Muslims I know (& many I don’t) would not take something like that literally, or even accept that all aspects of Sharia law is appropriate for these times. They would take exception to being considered non-Muslim by you or anyone else.”
These are profoundly ignorant statements. And it is tragi-comic the degree to which such beliefs about Islam are universal in Europe. They originate in a false form of projection. Because we come from societies with Judeo-Christian foundations: we project their characteristics of theological division and interpretation onto all other religions. We say, in effect, “this is what all religious people are like.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w
0:50 – 3:10
But there is no analogous division in Islam to that of Orthodox and Reform Judaism. Or that between hard devout Catholicism and soft Church of England Anglicanism, in Christianity say.
People like your friends and mine, Muslims who take this view, find no imam who will agree with them, there is no mosque or Islamic tradition which goes along with their view and nods along in happy benevolent agreement.
There is no Islamic country in the world in which women are not second class citizens, animals are not slowly ritually slaughetred to death, and homosexuals are not persecuted. (It is only “legal” in Egypt, Indonesia and Iraq; but even then it’s only really Indonesia that puts up with it and that’s because of the very large Hundu population.)
This is exactly the problem:
We see division of opinion in these matters, and we project from our own understanding, we eroneously say: “Opinion differs between Muslims, so there must be two separate kind of observant Muslim, one which goes along with a more hardline tradition and another which goes along with a more liberal one.”
But this is false. And the fault is our own, because we are projecting what we want to see, we are not accuratley describing what we are in fact witnessing.
What we are observing is not the difference bewteen an “orthodox” Muslim and a “reformed” Muslim. We are observing the difference between an observant Muslim and a lapsed Muslim.
Collosal difference.
http://www.israelelect.com/ChurchOfTrueIsrael/Was-
jesus-jewish.html
During His lifetime, no persons were described as
“Jews” anywhere. That fact is supported by
theology, history and science. When Jesus was in
Judea, it was not the “homeland” of the ancestors
of those who today style themselves “Jews”. Their
ancestors never set a foot in Judea. They existed
at that time in Asia, their “homeland”, and were
known as Khazars. In neither of the manuscripts of
the original Old or New Testament was Jesus
described or referred to as a “Jew”, just as the
term “Texan” signifies a person living in Texas.
In spite of the powerful propaganda effort of the
so-called “Jews”, they have been unable to prove
in all the recorded history that there is a
record, prior to that period, of a race religion
or nationality, referred to as “Jew”. The
religious sect in Judea, in the time of Jesus, to
which self-styled “Jews” today refer to as “Jews”,
were known as “Pharisees”. “Judaism” today and
“Pharisaism” in the time of Jesus are the same.
Jesus abhored and denounced “Pharisaism”; hence
the words, “Woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees,
Hypocrites, Ye Serpents, Ye Generation of Vipers”.
Yet the word “Pharisee” has been pointedly ignored
and all but forgotten in modern Christendom. It may
be the most avoided word found in the Bible. Many
church pastors and most televangelists are capable
of preaching the year through without ever
mentioning the word Pharisee, except in passing over
it like an extinct and irrelevant species. Bible
study courses rarely mention who the Pharisees were,
and why Jesus pronounced upon them so harshly. Could
it be that any celebrity Christian who wants keep
his TV contract knows that he must never suggest
that the Pharisee’s war on Jesus has anything at all
to do with us, or that this anti-Christ sect may
have survived to this day ?
Jesus was born a Jew, to Jewish parents, is described as the son of Abraham and David.
(Matt 1:1)
He is circumcised, a Jew.
(Luke 2:21)
He studies in the temple where only Jews are permitted. Teaches in the temple.
(Luke 2:46) (Luke 2:49)
Is proclaimed as Messiah (the Jewish saviour, who can only be a Jew).
(Matt 21:9) (Isaiah 9:6)
He is tried by the Jewish court, which only has jurisdiction over Jews, this is recognized by both the Romans and the Jews.
(Mark 14:53) (John 18:35)
He is crucified under a banner saying “King of the Jews.”
(Mark 15:16-20)
He reads the Torah (Luke 2:47), observes the Passover (John 2:13), Succot (John 7:2), Hanukah (John 10:22) and the Sabbath.
He urges others to do as he does, and observe the laws of Moses i.e. Judaism.
(Matt 8:4)
His twelve apostles are all Jews.
(John 1:37) etc.
A Pharisee calls him “Rabbi.”
(John 3:2)
He regularly attended synagogue. He preaches from the Hebrew scriptures.
(Mark 7:6-13)
His body is claimed by a Jew, and buried in a Jewish tomb according to Jewish custom.
(Matt 27:59-60) (Luke 23:50-52) (John 19:40)
He also self-refers as a Jew.
John (20:16)
Given if you are Orbán or Bajnai you only have to be snapped wearing a kippah for people to scream: Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!… needless to say I find all of this deeply comical.
[Luke above is stressed as it is considered to be the most Anti-Semitic of the gospels. Matthew the most pro-Jewish.]
@ Bob
I am getting a free religious education around here.
I never heard that Jesus was not a Jew until I read it here a few months ago and I immediately emailed my Bible Teacher friend and posted what he said – your posting is even clearer.
Anyway, I sent him a couple of some awful postings from this website and asked him if Jesus said anything about hating others for being different – he replied a few weeks ago but this is my opportunity to cut and paste his reply – what do you or anyone else think?
“Well, there sure is enough hate to go around – and yes, this kind of prejudice and hate is evil.
You’re right – a true Christian is someone who doesn’t (or at least shouldn’t) hate. (Although not everyone who doesn’t hate is a Christian).
If someone has hatred toward anyone – including their enemies – then they need to reconsider whether or not they are genuine Christians.
Interestingly, the Bible says almost nothing directly about racial prejudice. However, there are passages that make it clear that hatred toward anyone is incompatible with Christianity.
Two of the most clear and simple are in Matthew and 1 John.
In Matthew, we find this statement by Jesus:
Matthew 22:37–40 (NKJV)
37 Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
continued
@Bobs – I am well aware of the concept of ummah. However, Islam as practised in different parts of the world vary, and the interpretation and importance of the passages vary with place and time, even if you think it shouldn’t.
If a Muslim chooses to believe that Obama is not a Muslim, that’s his choice, regardless of whether the Koran defines a child of a Muslim as a Muslim. Even in Indonesia (the most populous Muslim country in world), Obama is not seen as a Muslim, but rather as someone who relates to Indonesia by having lived there. Are you now saying that Indonesian Muslims are not observant Muslims because they don’t see Obama as a Muslim, or because they don’t practise Islam the way it is practised in Saudi Arabia?
While almost all Muslims accept that the Koran is the word of God, only the most fanatical believe everything in it should be taken literally. You are correct in stating that it is not subject to interpretation, & that you cannot pick and choose. However, you are incorrect in asserting that all Muslims believe that they need to put it into practise, ie they DO pick and choose, whether you like it or not, and this, does not make them less Muslim in their eyes. Maybe it does in yours. Your perception of what a Muslim should accept & put into practise is almost as extreme as the literal interpretation of the fanatics, and that, coming from a non-Muslim, is STAGGERING.
@ Bob (continued)
Matthew 22:37–40 (NKJV)
37 Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Note that Jesus said that the second commandment is like the first. The point being that the love we have for God and people (meaning everyone) is essentially the same.
Picking up on this idea, the apostle John writes in 1 John:
1 John 4:20–21 (NKJV)
20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?
21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.
The point being this, if we claim to be a Christian, which would mean that we claim to love God – and yet hate another person – then we are a liar – meaning we don’t really love God – which would call to question our claim to be a true Christian.
cont’d – There are hundreds, if not thousands of Imams, who wouldn’t advocate violence as means to becoming “more” Muslim. You’re right, they may not openly criticize or contradict the Koran, but they would encourage & try to steer their flock clear of such practises under “normal” circumstances. I just came back from home where my Arab friend’s dad is an Imam, and he (the father) doesn’t even believe that all aspects of Sharia law are practical in our own country. Does he lose his “Imam” credentials, for stating this to a non-believer? Btw, my friend (he thinks he is an observant Muslim) hosted an evening BBQ for me, and opened a special bottle of whisky for us. And this during Ramadan.
Interesting video, but too xenophobic for my tastes. I knew all 3 points. Most Muslims would be happy accepting the less violent passages in any contradictions even if they know otherwise.
There is no “picking and chosing” or deciding for
yourself on the literal word of God. It does not
change over time and IS NOT. I repeat, IS NOT and
CANNOT be subject to interpretation. If as you say
(and I would like to know with what support you
say this) that most Muslims do not believe this.
Then this is not a Muslim belief.
bobscountrybunker at September 7, 2010 11:39 AM
—
Funny that the world’s leading Muslims do not agree with ‘bob’, when they (the real Muslims) makes their own interpretation:
-
http://ammanmessage.com/
-
“Based upon this definition they forbade takfir (declarations of apostasy) between Muslims”
.
In total, over 500 leading Muslim scholars worldwide unanimously endorsed the Amman Message and its Three Points, of which the 2nd point is above
But they are of course wrong according to ‘Scholar Bob’
@olga
Indeed, true all.
@Curious George
Frankly, I fail to see what the point is you are seeking to make.
It really is tiresome, that when it comes to Islam, when people seek to point out the plain realities, they are dismissed as xenophobes. They are not imams making fatwas, they are not Jibril revealing the Qur’an. It is not these peoples’ fault the Qur’an and Hadith say what they do, and how they unequivocally instruct Muslims to act.
But this is now the common part of our dialogue, merely explaining Islam, is automatically classed as Islamophobia. Crazy. And of course a kafir attempting to do so is “staggering”: this mindset might as well have been copied direct from Islamic jurisprudence.
Your big defence, seems to be, that many Muslims choose not to follow their faith: or choose to remain ignorant of its injunctions. Therefore, what else do you do but simply reinforce my point made above, than what is being contrasted is lapsed, and observant, Muslims?
If imams commit things which Islam say are haram or hudud: like drinking Whiskey. I fail to see how this is a defence.
And neither do I see how your Whiskey swilling imam, and imagined “thousands of moderate Imams”…
(To take the UK as an example, in its 1,600 mosques 92% of imams were not born in the UK, and only 6% speak English as a first language. And these are all beer guzzlers and bacon sandwich chompers, are they?)
…does either: because this is precisely the point!
@ Bob
Well there you go – with you and my friend being basically on the same page as far as Christianity goes, I saved myself about 10 years studying the Bible
As far as the Koran is concerned, I hope the future generation of Muslims will consider its extreme views as ridiculous as Christians today consider some passages of the Old Testament.
I already posted the “Dear Laura” letter once that made fun of the taking the Old Testament verbatim
Such fatuous platitudes about supposed “moderate” Islam, can not explain away the realities of Islam’s past or it’s present. Take a look at any list of the world’s conflicts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_conflicts
And you discover that if you remove all the ones in whcih Islam is a factor, then the world in fact would be a remarkably peaceful place.
Islam is probably the most violent, oppressive and retrograde ideology in the world today. Thousands still die by its sword every day, and tallking about Muslims having a jolly barbecue, who have clearly deliverately run away from the blood letting their faith creates does not contradict this reality: it insults it.
When terrorist attrocities happen in the West, where are all these moderate Muslims? Why don’t these whiskey drinkers come out and condemn their coreligionists savagery: in force, in number, and without equivocation?
Why? Simply because the theology of the “Islamist” is more sound.
It is more accurate Islam. It is what their faith calls them to do.
The theologically bad Christian priest abuses children. But the theologically “good” Muslim cuts off the head of the unbeliever. This difference is: profound.
The problem is not Muslims (provided they are bad Muslims who in practis reject their faith, and only pretend to hold to its beliefs): it is Islam.
@ Bob
Re: “When terrorist attrocities happen in the West, where are all these moderate Muslims? Why don’t these whiskey drinkers come out and condemn their coreligionists savagery: in force, in number, and without equivocation?”
Because they would like to see their next birthday and prefer their families not be killed for good measure?
Even if they live in the West they are not safe to criticize – ask Rushdie or Theo van Gogh – actually the latter was murdered for speaking out so you can’t ask him
Look what happened to the Freedom Fighters in 1956 who dared to speak up nor do I think Stalin was any better than a Muslim Fanatic
But the theologically “good” Muslim cuts off the head of the unbeliever
bobscountrybunker at September 7, 2010 4:23 PM
—
And the “good” Christian cuts of other bodily parts of the unbeliever
-
“Founded in 1989, the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA) was the successor to the Holy Spirit Movement. The LRA seeks to overthrow the incumbent Ugandan government and replace it with a regime that will implement the group’s brand of Christianity
The LRA frequently kidnaps and kills local Ugandan civilians in order to discourage foreign investment and precipitate a crisis in Uganda”
“Lord’s Resistance Army is just the name of the movement, because we are fighting in the name of God. God is the one helping us in the bush. That’s why we created this name, Lord’s Resistance Army. And people always ask us, are we fighting for the [biblical] Ten Commandments of God. That is true – because the Ten Commandments of God is the constitution that God has given to the people of the world. All people. If you go to the constitution, nobody will accept people who steal, nobody could accept to go and take somebody’s wife, nobody could accept to innocently kill, or whatever. The Ten Commandments carries all this.”
-
http://www.irinnews.org/InDepthMain.aspx?InDepthId=58&ReportId=72472
-
And who is to decide if these guys are not
The True And Only Christians?
I found a grey hair today by my left temple. Don’t you just hate when that happens?
)
“Frankly, I fail to see what the point is you are seeking to make”
None at all. Just thought I’d bring up a topic equally as interesting as Islam
@olga
Because they would like to see their next birthday and prefer their families not be killed for good measure?
Even if they live in the West they are not safe to criticize – ask Rushdie or Theo van Gogh – actually the latter was murdered for speaking out so you can’t ask him
olga at September 7, 2010 4:37 PM
@ Bob
Re: “Van Gogh’s last words to his killer were, “Can’t we just talk about this?…”
No I didn’t know ,that but it’s incredibly sad.
Do you think you could convince some people in Hungary to use that phrase when discussing the minority “problems” in Hungary?
@Bobs – My point is very simple. You are using interpretation of the Koran by Muslim extremists (in the western sense), to determine who and what constitutes a Muslim, and how he should act. The reality is the exact opposite. Regardless of what is stated in the Koran, Muslims within their society (also varied) decide who is lapsed or not. In all respects, the millions of Indonesian Muslims who tolerate alcohol, pork & other religions, and who do not practise Wahhabi Islam are NOT considered lapsed Muslims.
“If imams commit things which Islam say are haram or hudud: like drinking Whiskey. I fail to see how this is a defence.”
No one said it was a defense. I merely pointed out that alcohol drinking, despite being haram, doesn’t disqualify oneself from considering himself a Muslim. Btw, My friend’s Imam father doesn’t drink. He is in all respects a “real” & respected Imam, even outside our country. It was the son who hosted the BBQ (without the father present)
I can see you are trying to explain Islam from a clinical point of view, but focusing only on the unquestioned acceptance of the extreme elements within the Koran which western society finds distasteful. However, the reality is that the majority of Islam is not practised that way, and Muslims DO question the extreme elements, by NOT carrying them out. I believe, in time, modern Muslims will find way to discuss them publicly. Harder than most religions, but everything changes with time.
Simply because the theology of the “Islamist” is more sound. It is more accurate Islam. It is what their faith calls them to do
bobscountrybunker at September 7, 2010 4:23 PM
—
No, ‘bob’, it is what *you* want them to do!
Like the, mainly, East-European Christian Priest that pour hatred over Judaism, quoting every bad passage they can find, stereotyping every bad action they can find, you do the same on Islam
And you have your ‘Brother In Arms’ among some Islamic Imams and Mullahs, pouring hatred over Christianity
Religion can be a corny thing, but what makes it dangerous are the people claiming to do good in the name of their religion, like the LRA, etc
Not the religion in itself, because, as proven above, Judaism also proposes to kill people who are not true Jews (Judaism: Deuteronomy 13:6–10)
But who believes that today?
Read up on the Amman Message:
-
http://ammanmessage.com/
-
It contradicts everything you claim, that you are the only source on how to implement Islam today
The World of Muslims do not agree with you
It is more accurate Islam. It is what their faith calls them to do.
)”
bobscountrybunker at September 7, 2010 4:23 PM
No, it is not more accurate Islam. It is only what you think all believers should/would take literally. Most believers would reject what you think makes them a “true” Muslim.
@JA – “Just thought I’d bring up a topic equally as interesting as Islam
You could have also brought up Canada
To take on a more positive attitude to life and our neighbors, the following can be a better reading then:
-
http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/article/34526/roma-social-insertion-village-aubervilliers-france.html
-
It explains about the ‘villages d’insertion’, ‘social integration villages’ that have been created, of all places, in France
.
“Four years after their creation in Europe, ‘social integration villages’ are being presented as a ‘Roma paradise’. European associations for minority protection expose some of the difficulties facing the most discriminated community in the EU. Meanwhile, the French government has since planned to dissolve 300 Roma settlements, whilst the UK is seeing its biggest Romany gypsy site, Dale Farm in Essex, bulldozed”
@Curious George
My point is very simple. You are using interpretation of the Koran by Muslim extremists (in the western sense), to determine who and what constitutes a Muslim, and how he should act. The reality is the exact opposite.
—-
Indeed! your point is very simple.
Yet again you come to the question with a Judeo-Christian mindset. And you reveal it again and again with this word “interpretation” but there is no interpretation in Islam.
You can only interpret the symbolic, the contradicatory and the vague. But Islamic scriptures are not generally symbolic, with repsect to violence are never vague, and in Surah 2:106 give a way for the contradictions to be handled.
There is no “interpretation” in Islam because there is not “theology” in Islam. What you have instead is jurisprudence. You don’t get to pick and choose the direct commands of God. To lean them that way or the other. The command is to strike the head off the unbeliever: you either do or do not.
And if the text SAYS: “strike the head off the unbeliever.” (47:4) There is NO “extremist” interpretation of this. Just as there cannot be a moderate interpretation of this.
It says what it says. You can’t “interpret” it. You can’t say that what it means by “unbeliever” is actually “pineapple.”
Just go and read the 9th Surah for example. It’s not long. And as the last revealed surah it cannot be abrogated.
e.g. verses: 5, 14, 20, 29, 30, 38-42, 73, 88, 111, 123
…
http://www.sacred-texts.com//isl/pick/009.htm
Far from the reality being the “exact opposite,” the reality is exactly as I have portrayed it. Fourteen centuries of terrible bloodshed in the past, and a world today with 25 wars which if we removed those with an Islamic element would be a world with FOUR major wars.
What you have on your side is exactly one barbecue, and a host of “thousands” of moderate Muslims, who as ever disappear as instantly as they are called to make an appearance or make their “moderate” views known.
@Curious George
Sorry but I have don’t have any more time for this today, so I will copy and paste this from the “Religion of Peace” website, and make it my last word on the subject. Wishing you a pleasant evening.
From the Editor: Our Statement on Muslims (and Islam)
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Statement-on-Muslims.htm
Since we hear from so many critics who either don’t take the time to read this site, or simply can’t understand the distinction between Islam and Muslims, we thought it best to bring together in one place what we have said in so many others over the years.
Islam is an ideology. No ideology is above critique, particularly one that explicitly seeks political and social dominance over every person on the planet.
Muslims are individuals. We passionately believe that no Muslim should be harmed, harassed, stereotyped or treated any differently anywhere in the world solely on account of their status as a Muslim.
Islam is not simply a belief about God. It is a word that means submission. Islam is a set of rules that establish a social hierarchy in which Muslims submit to Allah, women submit to men and all non-Muslims submit to Islamic rule.
If you want an instruction, from the “direct command” of God, to kill and oppress Jews, Christianity is not for you
bobscountrybunker at September 7, 2010 4:53 PM
===
Islamic scriptures are not generally symbolic, with repsect to violence are never vague
bobscountrybunker at September 7, 2010 5:45 PM
—
Here are some choice passages from the KJV Bible which when read in isolation makes the Bible appear to be a primer for evil:
.
1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.
.
2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.
.
3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.
.
4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.
.
5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.
.
6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.
.
7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.
-
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1086.htm
-
No comments
Since we don’t live in a Muslim country (where censorship, intimidation and brute force are shamelessly employed to protect Islam from logical analysis), we are still free to openly exercise our right to debate the merits of the Islamic value system against Western Liberalism.
Are men really superior to women as the Qur’an says? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E30kBYzPEoA Are women intellectually inferior as Muhammad taught? Does propagating material (the Qur’an) that openly curses people of other religions amidst random calls to violence really make for a better social environment? Is it right to keep women as sex slaves merely because the Qur’an explicitly allows it in multiple places? Should atheists and homosexuals have to choose between the noose and an outward profession of faith in Allah?
Yes, there are Muslims who take issue with these aspects of Islamic theology, but it doesn’t change what Islam is. Don’t confuse the ideology with the individual. Don’t draw conclusions about Islam based on the Muslims that you know, be they terrorists or humanitarians. Islam must be understood on the basis of what it is, as presented objectively in the Qur’an, Hadith and Sira (biography of Muhammad).
By the same token, don’t draw conclusions about the Muslims in your life based on the true nature of Islam. Like any other group, not all Muslims think alike. Even if there is no such thing as moderate Islam, it does not mean that there are no moderate Muslims.
If our years of dialogue with literally hundreds have taught us anything, it is that most Muslims (even devout ones) have only a superficial understanding of their religion. Many are secular and very few made the choice to even be Muslim. As with all religion, there are widely varying degrees of seriousness with which they may take the teachings of Islam. As Ayaan Hirsi Ali put it, “Muslims as individuals can choose how much of their religion they practice.”
The Muslims that you know are not terrorists. More than likely, their interests in life are similar to yours and they have the same ambitions for their children. They should neither be shunned, mistreated, nor disrespected merely because of their religion. Their property should not be abused, and neither should copies of their sacred book be vandalized.
Prejudging an individual by their group identity (or presumed group identity) is not only unethical, it is blatantly irrational, since group identity reveals absolutely nothing about a person. Every individual should be judged only on the basis of their own words and deeds.
Don’t judge Islam by the Muslims that you know, and don’t judge the Muslims that you know by Islam.
@all
Oh yes, and before I bust a move out I must make one more comment of the awaited critique by Vándorló of Melanie Phillips’ latest book: The World Turned Upside Down.
Sadly given the book was published this year there is no way to link to actual text from it, to point towards which of the many arguments in it caught my eye, and which one in particular I was concurring with and referencing here.
I have however managed to find a variation of the argument she puts forward from a Spectator blog post by her in 2008. And with everyone’s permission will cite the most relevant paragraphs so everyone interested in the substance of the debate can know what is under discussion:
The open society and its enemies
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/627671/the-open-society-and-its-enemies.thtml
“The single most important thing for left-wingers — what defines them in their own eyes as people of moral worth — is the fact that they are not ‘right-wing’. For ‘the right’ is a place of unmitigated evil. Only the left is good. So this is how it goes in the left-wing mind.
To be not on the left is evil.
To be not on the left is to be on the right.
Therefore everyone who disagrees with the left on anything is automatically an evil right-winger.
The idea that there can be anything other than left-wing or right-wing – eg ‘liberal’, or ‘not really that interested in political ideology, thanks’, or ‘it’s just common-sense, surely?’ – won’t wash at all. Anything not left-wing is right-wing. Any other explanation is just… well, false consciousness.
So this is what follows.
The left believe a wide range of lies.
Others believe in the truth instead.
Therefore to the left, those people are ‘right-wing’.
Therefore truth is actually a right-wing concept.
Therefore truth is evil.
Therefore truth has to be relabelled lies while lies of course remain unchallengeable truth.
It is no exaggeration to say that, since the vast majority of the media and intellectual class in Britain are on the left, this mindset has quite simply poisoned British public debate and brought us to our current state of suicidal irrationality in the face of an unprecedented global threat. For examples of this pathology, and the viciousness to which it gives rise, see some of the readers’ comments posted under various entries on this very website.
The reflex reaction of a left-winger, when presented with a set of facts which challenge his or her assumptions about the world, is not to ask ‘Is this true?’ but ‘Will adopting this position make me right-wing?’ It’s not just that to adopt such a heresy would risk social ostracism and worse amongst friends and colleagues.
Don’t judge Islam by the Muslims that you know, and don’t judge the Muslims that you know by Islam
bobscountrybunker at September 7, 2010 6:22 PM
—
OK, because tomorrow ‘bob’ will lash out against how we in Europe is being destroyed by accepting so many Muslims, because ‘they *must* follow Islam and kill all non-believers’, so what is the difference?
-
Anyway comparing religions goes on for ever, like it has done the last couple of millenniums:
-
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/03/scholar_compare.html
-
In the minds of ordinary Christians – and Jews – the Koran teaches savagery and warfare, while the Bible offers a message of love, forgiveness, and charity
But in terms of ordering violence and bloodshed, any simplistic claim about the superiority of the Bible to the Koran would be wildly wrong
In fact, the Bible overflows with “texts of terror,” to borrow a phrase coined by the American theologian Phyllis Trible
The Bible contains far more verses praising or urging bloodshed than does the Koran, and biblical violence is often far more extreme, and marked by more indiscriminate savagery
The Koran often urges believers to fight, yet it also commands that enemies be shown mercy when they surrender
Some frightful portions of the Bible, by contrast, go much further in ordering the total extermination of enemies, of whole families and races – of men, women, and children, and even their livestock, with no quarter granted
-
And where do this lead to?
Ask bob
More profoundly, the left-winger really does believe that to be left is good and to be ‘right’ is evil. So adopting even one position which contradicts left-wing thinking (Saddam was a worse tyrant than George W Bush; Israel is the victim not the villain in the Middle East; Islamism is a denial of human rights) risks the total collapse of that left-winger’s entire moral universe. Since that world-view can brook no challenge whatever, the left-winger has to kill off any such challenge stone dead. Which is done by demonising and smearing the challenger. And the bigger the lie that is challenged and the more murderous its consequences, the more savage are the smears and ostracism.
This, of course, is by no stretch of the imagination a progressive attitude. It is instead a totalitarian mindset. As in Edgar’s article, the left claim they are the ‘progressives’ in society — but the truth is the precise opposite. Nothing new here: the idea that the left were always the heroic opponents of tyranny is merely a self-serving myth invented by the left. From the French Revolution onwards, the left have in fact generally sided with tyrants and oppressors; ever since that time the most ‘progressive’ intellectuals have been fascinated by violence; socialism and national socialism were after all brothers in blood, descending from the same counter-Enlightenment strain of thinking.”
@bob – you know, as I do, that only the Arabic script of the Quran contains the essence of what is meant for a Muslim. So, if you think your English text takes precedence over how a Muslim (even your characterisation of a “lapsed” one) takes the same passage to heart in Arabic, then you understand nothing about Islam.
I agree, while Islam in general, is not subject to interpretation, it is the choice of Muslims within the society to perform those tasks, or face the consequences (as determined by Allah). Many do make that choice.
Your numerical characterization of Islamic wars is deceiving. Not every conflict listed is religious – many are about territory (even those between Muslim belligerents).
Muslim moderates do voice their opposition. It’s just only not as often, or as vocal as you would like to hear, and those attempts still need to be tempered according to the society. The moderates in some countries are also seeking other ways of how to deal with modernizing Islam for the masses. The recent “Young Imam TV reality show” in Malaysia is an example. The Koran has been in existence for 1400 years. We’ve lived and dealt with it even if we don’t agree with it or like it (me included), and will continue to do so. In fact, I think globalization will have a bigger impact on this world, and also on Islam.
An Ayatullah in favor of a non-practitioner being leader of all Muslims. Jeez, how much more liberal can a religion get?
Pleasant evening to you too!
bob: I read the excerpt you posted about left Vs right etc. While I don’t deny that there are people like that on the left, I could also easily point to many on the right…so, without trying to be rude, the argument as posted is equally applicable to both ‘sides’. To me, it’s a sadly ‘typical’ human thing to want to divide into ‘us’ and ‘them’ categories.The really tragic thing is that all it does is prolong the agony and prevent solutions for deeply rooted problems. As you know, and have recognised, I tend to be at the centre left of things in the sense that while I do see the need to take action, there is a point at which I have to balance that against questions of, as a pragmatist, of ‘what problems will we create by doing this?’ The example of this was the list of questions I posed about the Roma camp proposal on the “LMP condemns” thread.So although I do have my emotional reservations of the plan, I can also see severe practical problems that make the plan seem unworkable, and more, that it is itself based on ideology rather than rational thinking.
so in the end, I am not on the left of centre as a result of ideology, as much as a result of the practicalities and limitations of the systems I work within.Of course I have my principles, but ultimately, what matters to me the most is that the best possible result be achieved…and I just don’t see this happening with the more extreme right wing ideas posted here.I don’t think the right is ‘evil’, but just as I would feel the same about the extreme left wing, I do question the motives of people who seem more passionate about their political alignment than their own humanity.
(sorry for the errant post from the Tsar)
@Cináed
I read the excerpt you posted about left Vs right etc. While I don’t deny that there are people like that on the left, I could also easily point to many on the right…so, without trying to be rude, the argument as posted is equally applicable to both ‘sides’.
Tsar Cyanide the Toxic at September 7, 2010 7:29 PM
So adopting even one position which contradicts left-wing thinking (Saddam was a worse tyrant than George W Bush; Israel is the victim not the villain in the Middle East; Islamism is a denial of human rights) risks the total collapse of that left-winger’s entire moral universe
bobscountrybunker at September 7, 2010 6:52 PM
—
Funny that we always must define left/right by going over the Middle-East
There is no European definition any longer?
@bob:
I won’t comment on your “analysis” of Islam -Christians have probably murdered more people in the name of their religion than Muslims …
Just one word on your new favorite Melanie Phillips. Straight from her homepage:
“But evolution is not a fact. It is a theory with holes in it.”
Yeah, she believes in Creationism – need I go on ?
http://www.melaniephillips.com/
PS: You believe in it too ? That would explain a lot …
bob: I’m off to bed shortly, but just wanted to say ‘fair comment’ to what you posted. I guess where you and I differ in our perception is that you come from a political science background, while I come from a sociology background. This is not to say one is ‘better’ than the other of course, but rather that they have different epistimelogical approaches. So for me, in a sense, categories of ‘left’ and ‘right’ become kind of irrelevant, in favour of modes and methods of enacting, preserving and reproducing power. That the left and the right end up the same should come as no surprise as ideology becomes a vehicle for achieving supremacy.
-
This is why I question the motives and even the ‘patriotism’ of the manic among us here on politics. Simply, I doubt that they really give a toss about Hungary, or principles or anything as much as more self-centred motivations of power and attention seeking.
-
Actually, a lot of the stuff I see here makes me think of many dictators and ‘enlightened despots’ throughout history who have the attitude that the people need someone strong to lead them, and that they are an unenlightened great grey mass who need enlightenment from them.
“But evolution is not a fact. It is a theory with holes in it.”
Yeah, she believes in Creationism – need I go on ?
http://www.melaniephillips.com/
wolfi at September 7, 2010 7:53 PM
@bob:
So she changed her mind ?
Look here:
http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=30
That’s where my quote is from.
You might also look her up on wiko – if you did already:
What on her position on Israel, the Palestinians and the Iraq war etc …
But as I know your writings – you just “pick and choose” what you like to see …
This Melanie Phillips should especially get sympathies from “Christians” like Law and LYNCH for remarks like this:
“So in Britain, it is becoming ever harder for Christians to be allowed to live according to their religious ethics. There has been a string of cases in which Christians have been forced to step down from their jobs as marriage registrars or from adoption panels because they refuse to officiate at gay partnership ceremonies or hand children for adoption by gay couples.”
Yeah, she also is anti-gay but she also is a real “Jew” – defending Israel …
Might be a problem for Law and LYNCH (and bob ?) …
Yeah, she believes in Creationism – need I go on ?
wolfi at September 7, 2010 7:53 PM
@all
Oh, and to reiterate, the argument under discussion is THIS one, about the behaviour of the political Left.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/627671/the-open-society-and-its-enemies.thtml
That is what the discussion about. The pathologising, of the Right by the Left. How the liberal Left thinks, or rather doesn’t think: as you gentlemen so ably demonstrate here. This is what the argument is about:
NOT evolution.
NOT creationism.
NOT Israel.
NOT Zionism.
NOT Jews.
NOT Palestine.
NOT Trianon.
NOT Horthy.
NOT Jobbik.
NOT the SZDSZ.
NOT the Gay pride Parade.
NOT the Magyar Gárda.
NOT the Gypsy murders.
NOT Islam.
NOT Muslims.
NOT Jews.
NOT Gypsy murderers.
NOT Rákosi.
NOT Kádár.
NOT the AVO:
NOT the Holocaust.
NOT Jews.
NOT Nazis.
NOT Fascists.
NOT Hitler.
NOT positive discrimination.
NOT the Hungarian Consitution.
NOT penis pumps.
NOT Jews.
NOT porn stars.
Did I say NOT Jews?
If you think Melanie Phillips is wrong in that argument: please address yourself to the substance of that argument.
Please don’t inform us how, “She is ‘wrong’ like, about everything dude, because she’s some evil right-wing Jew witch or something, man.”
Erm…
Because then what you have done you idiot, is just proven her right, in what she says about you in her argument, you know, that one, which you are supposed to be looking at and examining…
http://www.politics.hu/20100902/jobbik-proposes-to-set-up-criminal-zones-outside-cities#c142
@bob:
Just look here for an analysis of this crazy woman’s writings:
http://wongablog.co.uk/2007/08/07/melanie-phillips-on-pseudoscience-and-how-the-world-is-broken/
PS: What she says and/or believes is never made clear by herself – but what she writes makes it rather obvious (like your rantings) …
Maybe you should ask her about those Israeli spy planes …
PS:
Isn’t she “the respected right wing journalist” that you were asking me to find some time ago ?
Now you’ve found your “European Glen Beck” and she’s also a Jewish woman – rejoice!
ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!
Wrong answer.
ERROR Report:
* You have NOT addressed the article under discussion.
* You have attempted to distract attention away from it and compounded this logical error with a pointless ad hominem.
* You are merely reinforcing everyone’s conviction that you are incapable or actively frightened of facing the topic actually being discussed.
Argument: FAIL.
So, Bob would that emphatic response also be a
hint that you are not an “Intelligent Design”
buff? Or was that a way to throw us off the
scent? That you *do* believe in “Intelligent
Design” (ie a Creator ‘guides’ evolution, that our
current world could not have been arrived at
without His ‘hand’)?
Also, I think I have to agree with Curious George
that just because the strict interpretation of
various Scripture claim (with ‘divine authority’)
different things like “when someone is a Jew or a
Muslim” etc., to deny that the *individual*
themselves has any say in the matter, that they
can have their *own* slightly personal view, is to
be in my opinion overly simplistic. In that view,
there are virtually NO “Christians” in America,
because a Christian should be giving away their
material possessions, helping the poor, and
separating themselves from family etc. in order to
purify their relationship with God. Yet, Bob, if
you tell these Americans “you’re not REALLY
Christian” (because of the logic you used with
Muslims) then I have a feeling you will get an
argument from them. Likewise, my Muslim Turkish
friends who enjoy drinking, tell me they are
“still” Muslim, they’re just not fanatical about
the drinking etc. I don’t really see what’s
different to Christian “scriptural purity” test.
I finally find it hilarious those that call Obama
“Muslim” while criticizing his Christian pastor,
Wright.
JA: “I found a grey hair today by my … temple.”
Aha! Justasking IS a Jew!!
Bob – have fun, I’m still laughing at you and Mrs Phillips:
“Obviously she is not a scientist, in fact I suspect she has lived her whole life avoiding science. Only someone supremely ignorant of what science is could have written such an supremely ignorant article.”
http://homepage.mac.com/j.monro/MelaniePhillipsRiposte/MelaniePhillipsRiposte.html
ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!
Wrong answer.
ERROR Report:
* You have NOT addressed the article under discussion. AGAIN.
* You are continuing pointless ad hominems.
* You are providing links to pages none of which is of any relevance whatsoever to the article in question.
Please consult comment:
http://www.politics.hu/20100902/jobbik-proposes-to-set-up-criminal-zones-outside-cities#c157
* You are giving hints about running away, self-evidently because it is increasingly obvious how much you do not want to address the argument under discussion. And you are conscious about how much of a fool you are making of yourself.
Argument: FAIL.
FAIL fail!!
I would like to use this moment here on
politics.hu to take the liberty of BANNING THE USE
OF THE WORD “FAIL” to mean “failURE” or
“unacceptable” or “losing proposition” and so on.
It’s really over-used, un-grammatical, and well,
Bob you’re smart enough to do better!
While I’m at it, along the same lines, I’d also
like to take the opportunity to tell ANYone, and I
mean ANYone who wears one of those dumbass hats
known as “Trilby” hats (a fedora with brim-
deficiency syndrome) that they must STOP
immediately or else risk being exposed for the
gender-ambiguity-swingin’ (not that there’s
anything wrong with that) fashion-victims that
they are.
http://www.urbanoutfitters.co.uk/content/ebiz/urba
noutfitters/invt/5851411611200/5851411611200_Blue_
m1.jpg
NOW STOP IT!! Failure.
@bystander:
You got something here – Melanie Phillips and bob don’t say openly that they believe in creationism or “intelligent design” – zhey just talk about “Evolution is just a theory with holes” and so on …
It’s really funny how bob keeps coming back to the same shit about “the deadly grip of the neo-communist Left on the British print media” (thats from Phillips: http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles/)
and so on …
PS: She almost gives Jews a bad name …
ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!
Wrong answer.
ERROR Report:
* You have attempted to disguise your hollow
statement by addressing it to another.
* Despite the earlier link to subjects NOT under
discussion, you continue to address issues of no
relevance at all to the argument at hand.
* You have started to talk about Jews…
AGAIN.
Argument: FAIL.
Having been given three opportunities to actually
address the argument being discussed, and chosen
each time to avoid doing so for reasons known only
to yourself the bobscountrybunker-a-matic
MkIIIg judges you incapable of (choose your
preferred logical conclusion):
*honest discourse
*basic intelligence
*elementary literacy
Disengaging…
Disengaging…
Disengaging…
OFF
As a political scientist what I have observed
bobscountrybunker at September 7, 2010 7:39 PM
—
Well, do not quit your day-job
Let me try…
Bob, I came in late to the discussion, don’t know
who Melanie Phillips is… I can read up if those
are the ‘credentials needed’ for this discussion
(nominally on ‘jobbik-criminal zones)… but maybe
you could just Grandfather me in enough to ask a
simple question?
Bob, do you believe in:
1. Evolution (as stated by mainstream scientists,
including e.g. Richard Dawkins, Charles Darwin,
S.J. Gould etc.)
2. Creationism (as espoused by various
fundamentalists, earth created in 6 days, Moses
rode a dinosaur etc.)
3. Intelligent Design (which proposes that God
“assisted”/”assists” in the evolution of
organisms, that mere scientific cause and effect
is NOT enough to explain the full biodiversity in
light of the time that has passed).
Now, in advance of being declared a “FAIL” or a
“failure” or of “failing” I will allow you to
combine any of the categories above or even invent
your own.
Bob, would you do me this great service and at
minimum reply with a number 1, 2, or 3 above?
I must also say that I appreciated your fair
blasting of the far Right in your critique
above… While I *used* to confuse you with the
“Jobos” I now have a slightly clearer
understanding of your points (though I may
disagree in parts)…
Thanks in advance!
@ all
I think it was Bob who posted a link to a Melanie Phillips article and this is what I copied from it:
“To be not on the left is evil.
To be not on the left is to be on the right.
Therefore everyone who disagrees with the left on anything is automatically an evil right-winger.”
The problem is that before one can be put in a category of Right or Left, there has to be a clear definition of labels.
Example: Unlike JA’s friends (she made a comment to this effect somewhere) my friends are political animals and since the Roma in Hungary is a hot topic in our papers, I expressed the opinion in front of several people that it may not be such a bad idea to tie mandatory school attendance to welfare payments to ensure the kids get an education.
The reaction was unexpected but to make a long story short, I was looked upon as a female version of David Duke and Vona rolled into one. Without going into the gory details, I found myself accused of being “as bad as the people who want to segregate them”. ( polite tone and language of course but the message was clear ) BTW, some of these people support our Conservative party so they are our “right wingers”
I am NOT trying to debate any issues – only to make the point that definitions of Left and Right are open to interpretations.
I am trying to get used to being an “evil right winger” by Canadian standards while being labeled a “Neo-Liberal Satan” by some posters on this website.
Always good to be versatile I suppose.
@Olga,
Few friends of mine in Canada seem interested in Politics. I most times get a ‘deer in the headlight look’ when I ask a persons opinion on some political event/situation that I found interesting.
Where as in Hungary, all my family and friends there will give you the ‘deer in the headlight look’ if you DON”T talk politics
Anyhow, regarding your last post. I always been a right-winger. Sometime with a large ‘C’ and other times a small ‘c’. Pending on the scenario.
Your comment about agreeing with incorporating mandatory school attendance with Welfare cheques…is that really a right-wing/left-wing issue? Or is it more a ‘common sense’ issue made into a political one?
Regarding today’s thread and Islam. I believe Bobs brought up Theo van Gogh and what happened to him because he happened to make a movie which shed some light on this ‘religion’. I believe it was called ‘Submission’, I’m not positive.
You can find it on u-tube…along with a video of him dying I believe. Nice stuff. I don’t know if you are familiar with his work; but, he made a movie called ‘The Interview’. Worth watching…at least I thought so.
@ Bystander,
Oh my little friend. I noticed you added ‘…’ when I mentioned a grey hair by my temple. I tried to write it so that it could not be opened up like that…nice try.
As for me being a Jew…sorry. I’d make a piss poor one anyway. I think circumcision is a form of child abuse. Seriously I do.
Here we have some more examples “Jobbik” can include in their quest for cleansing “criminal elements” from their so upright standing neighbors:
-
http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/09/07/baggy-pants-ban-to-be-signed-into-law-in-georgia-town/
-
Clearly a sign of being a “criminal element” decided by the local authority and not ‘due process’
(‘bob’ will now declare me a ‘Left-Winger’ for questioning Local Authorities right to decide clothing rules)
bob wants me to discuss a woman who writes:
“For Obama, however, the real source of evil in the world is America. ”
“To solve world conflict, Obama places his faith in the UN club of terror and tyranny, which is currently fuelling the murderous global demonisation of Israel for having the temerity to defend itself …”
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/2545716/is-america-really-going-to-do-this.thtml
Does he really believe this lunatic ?(yes I have to call her that) – I remember him writing about evil Israel and its spy planes …
PS: Those quotes are from an article written befor Obama became president.
Wow, that Melanie Phillips sounds like an a-shole!
(Granted I didn’t read the article, but those quotes
remind me of certain people I know, the Jews that
make me want to bury my head in shame)…
“I think circumcision is a form of child abuse.”
Me too! Luckily I had plenty of ‘weiner’ to spare!
@Bystander,
You’re such a dick! Nark, nark,nark!!
That’s what SHE said!
@Bystander,
Just read the article and stop falling for Wolfi’s lame attempt at dismissing people and articles for his refusal to read an article in it’s entirety.
He enjoys pulling words and whole sentences out of context and relies on people not following up for themselves.
@justasking:
You completely misunderstood!
I just quoted those remarks to get people to look at her homepage – here is the link again:
http://www.melaniephillips.com/
It’s really funny – she writes like bob about Europe being terrorised by the “left intelligentsia” (yes she uses these words!) – almost the only difference is her defending the state of Israel – and ALL its actions (including that famous attack on those relief ships which almost everybody here got very angry about)…
Go read those articles on her site about Christians, spys, why Turkey should not become a member of the EU, about the Mercedes-driving refugees in Gaza, against Obama, for the radical right wing politician Wilders from the Netherlands ,whatever …
OK, I read the article, and for good or for bad
accidentally read her 2006 “opinions” on global
warming being caused by methane emissions from
trees FIRST…
Um, as someone with a little scientific training
(just a little) I find her ‘facts’ on that
fishy… I’m a mix of global warming skeptic and
believer… For me the data is what counts, no
preconceptions etc. (but so far it’s not looking
‘great’). Her article on that from 2006 I believe
centers on some “new study” that I believe turned
out to be total JUNK since I can’t find any
substantial data on this study, and my conclusion
is, that it didn’t pan out. Which was her sole
basis for ridiculing global warming. Like I said
I like to see the DATA. And so far, she’s ZERO
for ONE…
OK, then I read the other article from Bob re:
Left vs. Right. I gotta tell ya (as a centrist
slightly left, where in her defense I was taught
Left = “nice people, looking out for poor
etc.”)… except for a couple of very facile
conclusions, that was not a very informative
article and I think she should take a logic class.
You can’t use A=B and B=C therefore A are STUPID
“logic” to draw any useful conclusions.
The only useful info I got from that was that the
Left DO feel they are about the Good just as the
Right prob does, BFD.
Her logic is below university-level from what I’m
reading… basically junk.
BTW, even though I’m slightly Left, I LIKE some of
those authors she named like Hitchens et al,
so…what?!
Grade:D
@Bystander
1.
since the Roma in Hungary is a hot topic in our
papers, I expressed the opinion in front of
several people that it may not be such a bad idea
to tie mandatory school attendance to welfare
payments to ensure the kids get an education.
The reaction was unexpected but to make a long
story short, I was looked upon as a female version
of David Duke and Vona rolled into one. Without
going into the gory details, I found myself
accused of being “as bad as the people who want to
segregate them”.
olga at September 8, 2010 2:53 AM
@Wolfi,
)
I have to tell you that I will not be going to Ms. Phillips website anytime soon. Is it because I’m not interested? No.
Conspiracy theories here and threats there are coming from all angles… gets a little overwhelming and depressing sometimes. If I didn’t take a break, I swear I’d be looking for the boogieman behind every tree, afraid to leave my own house.
@Bobs,
Do you have any idea what you just did you the women on this site?
@Olga,
Bad enough we get attacked for our political views and opinions, now we’re going to be attacked for being women.
Get your balls out from the box and strap them on…we’re gonna need them right quick.
@justasking
I don’t know, I hope I made them smile.
I tried very hard not to be patronising and meant it
very sincerely.
I think particularly with Cin and FL posting ever
more infrequently there are few individuals left who
are keeping the debate here sane. They have, as I
(and I think many others), no doubt tired of the
tone and unhinged nature of much of the
contributions from all sides.
But it’s the incredible stupidity of it, actual asinine stupidity, that gets to me the most I think.
@Bobs,
D
I was just teasing you Bobs…I have yet to see you attack anybody on this site unprovoked.
And since I agree allot of the times with what you have too say, it just seems fitting that I too, am of the opinion that the women on this site tend to be smarter
As for the rest of your post…you’re right and I agree.
bob: you’re pretty much on the money. There is only
so much stupidity I can tolerate…especially when I
have so many far more important things I *should* be
doing. I would expect to be a less prolific
contributor for the near future. I have a major
deadline at the end of October, but after that I
should be back in the swing of things.
-
I liked your comment on the women who post here.
Generally speaking I’d agree with you, though Elle
doesn’t do the female gender any favours.
@ Bob, Cinaed att: justasking
Bob – Re: “Is it just me or are the women who post on politics.hu much smarter than the men who by andlarger are incredibly stupid?”
I am sure JA appreciated your comment like I did, but you will now have to take your pick as far as some posters on this website will be concerned and either become a fairy or a serpent like Cinaed . At least you have options.
@ Cinaed – how do you feel about welfare payments being tied to school attendance?
My so called Conservative Canadian friends did not take certain facts into consideration when they criticized me – kids HAVE to attend school in Canada – I believe (90% sure) that unless the family had a pre-approved home schooling plan in the home, children would be taken away and put into foster care if the parents refused to send them to school.
Thus desperate situations (Roma kids not going to school) require desperate measures – I never said the policy of welfare payments being tied to school attendance is “ideal” but the alternative has failed to educate Roma kids and I am certain that putting these kids into foster homes is NOT exactly a viable option in Hungary.
@Bob: “@Bystander 1.”
Thanks for your speedy reply… whew, OK, you pass
the sanity test and sped right by “Jobo trap
#1″… I feel relief.
As far as the article I read, I agree that I
myself have experienced what Olga wrote about,
where she thought she was a ‘liberal’ until she
was called a fascist (more or less) because of a
view that she thought non-controversial (which btw
I agree with! In America, you *have* to send the
kids to school, so what’s the big deal?)
However, since I’m mostly a centrist this happens
to me ALL the time, so perhaps I find the article
not so much shocking as “so what else is new?”
Did anyone get a big “aha” or “eureka” reading
this?!
I find that people whose opinions *always* fall on
one side or the other of a ‘party line’ open
themselves up to a charge of not evaluating each
issue on its own merits (or did they just
“coincidentally” have the same opinions as the
party line? Hmmm). I think both ‘sides’ if Left
and Right are always ‘sides’ are guilty of the
same fallacies and jumping-to-conclusions, and I
did ‘get’ Olga’s anecdote in light of the
article… but I stand by my conclusion… “SO
WHAT?”
I was pre-biased I suppose against the author when
I accidentally read her faux-scientific article on
global warming however which predisposed me to
wave my hands in annoyance however on the left-
right article. And seriously, using the
“commutative property” to illustrate POLITICs?
Sorry if I didn’t find this as illuminating as
some.
As far as the article I read, I agree that I
myself have experienced what Olga wrote about,
where she thought she was a ‘liberal’ until she
was called a fascist (more or less) because of a
view that she thought non-controversial (which btw
I agree with! In America, you *have* to send the
kids to school, so what’s the big deal?)
Bystander at September 8, 2010 9:39 PM
Now forgive me but I fail to see how such individuals would put their recommendations to writings that were “below college level education” and Grade D; as you describe them.
But as I said I haven’t read the article you refer to, my own reading of her latest book shows to me clearly that she is no opponnent of science, what she objects to is Scientism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism
But of course frequently people intentionally conflate the two, to try and pretend that a critic of Scientism is somehow opposed to science, in the same way that any objector to the EU is immediately labelled “anti-European.”
Any way you will forgive me if I no longer dwell on that issue, and go back to the original topic of the discussion (though of course it too was a tangent to the thread, as you pointed out).
What I am talking about is what the Left has done to political discourse and debate. The way that right-wing views are pathologised. The right is seen not as desirous of the pursuit of succesfful answers to social problems through rational and logical means, they are deemed evil or insane. Which is immediately intended to shut down debate.
Express a right-wing view, even a mild one on Politics.hu and you have immediately started a Godwin’s Law countdown timer, and it is only a matter of time before you will be called a Nazi…
For an amusing take on the philosophical reasons why this mindset could have developed, if you have a spare half-hour, take a listen to this commedian speaking at the right-wing (see just using that preceeding term makes people pause, so often has it be used as if it were a term of abuse) thinktank The Heritsge Foundation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE98w1KZ-c
The video goes out of sync, and it takes about 5 mins to get into. But the 30 min speech contains some very interesting reflections.
P.S. I thought the justasking / temple crack was very funny.
“Now forgive me but I fail to see how such
individuals would put their recommendations to
writings that were “below college level education”
and Grade D; as you describe them.”
Just to clarify I said that the LOGIC used in the
article I read was extremely sub-par (I stand by
my assertion that she makes fallacies that
would’ve been corrected by a university logic-
professor).
If you were to read her dissertation about
Global Warming Being Bunk Because Of New Data
About Trees Farting Methane… I think you
might get dizzy at her inappropriate leaps of
logic (link above somewhere). Added humor is the
fact that 5+ years after she wrote that, the
“science” she based it on appears to be completely
invalidated/ignored, making the whole article that
much *more* absurd to read in 2010. Which doesn’t
help her credibility when I got around to reading
the article that (I *thought*) you were referring
to (see “Van’s assessment” etc.).
The “Grade:D” was my assessment of the article. I
give it a D on an A-F scale, MY opinion.
I am surprised to see such ‘dignitaries’ writing
complimentary blurbs about her, but then again, I
think there’s more than meets the eye and they
probably are all on the same “team”/agenda so, a
little mutual support is normal. I think Bill
Kristol’s credibility these days is about 0.1 but
Woolsey, hey I will listen to what he has to
say… and who the *f-ck* is Chief Rabbi Lord
Sacks?! Apparently some local Brit! Jews don’t
HAVE a Chief Rabbi/Pope!
@Bystander
Could it be this guy perhaps?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Sacks
Wonderful tool, the internet.
Reading Bob’s link:
-
In 2009 Sacks gave an address claiming that Europeans have chosen consumerism over the self-sacrifice of parenting children, and that “the major assault on religion today comes from the neo-Darwinians.” He argued that Europe is in population decline “because non-believers lack shared values of family and community that religion has”
-
So now I am a “neo-Darwinian”?
But I do think that children should grow up in a safe environment and become independent individuals who can make their own choices as soon as possible
You know it is ‘survival of the fittest’ out there, even inside any church
France is getting a drubbing for their Roma expulsions: http://rawstory.com/news/afp/French_Roma_round_up_draws_more_fla_09132010.html
EU membership requires that member states make a pledge to treat all ethnic groups and minorities the same under the law.
Thankfully the majority of Hungarian MP’s think Roma detention camps are a really bad idea.
@ Pete H and all
Just read the Associated Press headline:
“EU calls France’s Gypsy expulsions ‘a disgrace’: and here is the link to the complete article”
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jdwOflfHw9HIzkznvHidLHIKyY8AD9I7RAVO0
I have come to the conclusion long ago that JOBBIK threats mean nothing, it’s grandstanding to get extra votes next month. As if the EU would stand for segregating the Roma WWII style.
I am not negating Hungary’s Roma problems or how horribly frustrating it must be to have constant petty crimes committed in certain areas of Hungary; – it seems to be such a huge problem in several countries, yet Spain had success within its borders. This was the first article I ever read that sounds positive
http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/article/332191-new-model-home-roma
Not to skip over Olga’s comment but I will stay
away from the sticky subject of Roma/crime for a
moment… but I just saw Bob’s comment:
“@Bystander Could it be this guy perhaps?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Sacks
Wonderful tool, the internet.”
Yes, Bob, the first thing I did the other day, was
google the guy, but my point was, that I call out
this dude as a FRAUD if he appends the title of
CHIEF RABBI (OF LONDON? I forget) to his name
where in reality he is only:
“the Chief Rabbi of the mainstream British
Orthodox synagogues, but not the religious
authority for the Federation of Synagogues or the
Union of Orthodox Hebrew Congregations or the
other movements, Masorti, Reform and Liberal
Judaism.[1][2]“
So, in other words this title means JACK SH-T to
anybody not in that silly Federation inside
England. So, in other words it’s a BS title made
to make him sound like he has any authority
whatsoever, it’s like any Pastor could say they
are “Chief Reverend Of Christians World Peace
Initiative International”. It doesn’t MEAN
anything other than he is head of some
“organization”.
Judaism, at least the version I was brought up in
(Reformism) HAS no “hierarchy” and in fact,
someone PRETENDING to be “high priest” or similar
is a *major major turn-off* to people like me.
Very presumptuous and cocky not to mention
misleading of him to think he has any religious
“authority”.
That was the root of my earlier comment. Not that
I didn’t LOOK HIM UP!
@ Bystander
Frankly if this guy wants to appoint himself as the next Messiah or the Chief Rabbi of the UK, who cares and what effect does it have on anyone?
I was much more concerned about Pastor Terry Jones and his over publicized Koran burning plans; I don’t know what religion he is, but the media referred to his stunt as a “recruitment bonanza for Al-Queda” -
Strange that most people including me has no idea of his religion, I am not about to do research on it because i was too busy worrying about the impact it would have on the Western soldiers in
Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
I am just waiting for LHVJ to have the inside info that Jones is really an Israeli
Pastor Jones I would guess is fond of the bottle. That is a religion of sorts.
My dear, sweet, bon-bon, Olga. (NOT!)
I had you down as a sceptical sourpuss.
You are always busy condemning others which is the work of the devil.
Be prepared to receive twenty gypsies courtesy of the French Republique and your light will shine in the heavens forever. As if there aren’t enough of that ilk (mark’s word) already!
@ Alabama
You are back as a woman – last time you were complaining about women issues – must be them “can’t beat them join them” attitude.
For whatever reason you got it into your head that I wish I lived in a Roma neighbourhood and that I negate Roma crime.
It doesn’t matter if people are Roma, Caucasian, Black – poor uneducated people commit crimes and the jails are full of poor uneducated people everywhere.
Blacks and Hispanics are over represented in US Jails – could it be that they are also over represented in lack of education and living in poverty? -
I don’t know Canadian race statistics but I can assure you that the majority of criminals come from poor uneducated backgrounds which doesn’t mean I would like to receive 20 of them – you write some really silly comments.
Yeah, people like that Pastor Jones are terrible
for “normal” Christians. It’s kind of amazing
that for the last several years — barring the
evil “Christians” (quotes intentional) in Nigeria
who burn children as witches and want to kill gay
people etc. — it has been hard to find ‘terrorist
Christians’ and that’s a good thing.
For years when a small fraction of militant
Islamists were out making the rest of the world
think that *ALL* Muslims are violent, Christians
felt as though they had the Moral High Ground
since no one could point to as-hole Christians
beheading people and so forth (other than Eric
Rudolph and Tim McVeigh types who were like in the
single digits).
But it really only was a matter of time till you
got an idiot like Pastor Jones to RUIN the Moral
High Ground (at least to uneducated rabble)…
So now, when Christians claim Islam is violent
because there are Islam-inspired-terrorists,
uneducated folks will point to Pastor Jones and
say “Hey all Christians are violent too! Look at
that guy burning the Koran!”
And sadly, it’s a debate-killer. It only takes
one bad apple to smear a whole religion in the
eyes of the uneducated.
My point: On this website, the uneducated like
Ricsi, Law, LHVJ, etc. have been saying that ALL
Jews are bad because one freakin stupid Rabbi
tried to sell organs in New Jersey (I think). So,
now they can use that and say ALL Jews are bad.
So, Ricsi, Law, LHVJ, I was wondering re: Pastor
Jones… HOW DOES IT FEEL?
Bystander. I agree with you that condemning Jews all the time is wrong. The people you cite as the criminals on this site do, however, quite often make valid contributions on various subjects.
It is up to you, and others, to take them to task, where you disagree. Do not fall into the trap of tit-for-tat bickering. State your case and have done with it!
PS. Olga. I know I have scored a broadside when your claws show in the form of bitchy, useless comments.
You are a complete waste of time. Also. I am not so stupid as not to understand that controversy is better for business than agreement.
You are as useless as you are pathetic. And…yes..I am back…but for how long. We’ll see.
Finally. The MALWARE is still here in the form of the Canadian, (another pork pie) dream-girl, transvestite, Ms Ogre.
“The people you cite as the criminals on this site do, however, quite often make valid contributions on various subjects.”
Wow! I’ve read a lot of idiotic comments here – but this is absolutely ridiculous …
Well Banaanmama, we’re waiting for more of that – insulting women seems a favourite hobby of yours, too, come on!
@ Wolfi
Maybe they will propose to set up Zones for Muslims in Germany
I received an email from a friend today with a comment and the link below that while Hungary and France are busy with Roma headlines, Germany has “moved” on to Muslims. (I know that most of Europe has as well, but that was his comment)
The article is old and my guess is you’ve seen it but I subscribe to Salon yet missed this article.
http://open.salon.com/blog/lost_in_berlin/2010/08/30/are_muslim_immigrants_making_europe_poorer_and_stupider
@Olga,
You have a group of people, who find it ‘normal’ to stone people to death (mostly women) for what they call moral infractions.
Stand up, denounce and abolish this barbaric act. To the World I might add. Do that, and I will listen to what you have to say.
Until that happens, my opinion regarding Islam will remain low.
@olga:
This Mr Sarrazin has just been kicked out of his office at the German National Bank – and the Social Democratic Party which h is a member of (so in Law’s world he must be a communist!) will probably kick him out too …
There’s already talk of a “new conservative party” being founded to get all the Jobbik types in to …
Well, in any country there’s a reservoir for these people – as soon as the economy is bad -they are searching for someone to blame – it can be anyone: Jews, Muslims, women, gays, Gypsies, the communists, the Americans, the EU or the UN or the IMF – doesn’t really matter whom you use as a scapegoat for those idiots …
It always has to be a group/minority where most people are sure – it’s them, not us …
http://open.salon.com/blog/lost_in_berlin/2010/08/30/are_muslim_immigrants_making_europe_poorer_and_stupider
olga at September 16, 2010 3:57 PM
—
I liked the finishing:
“No, Sarrazin is no Nazi, although he and those who identify with him share the potential to develop into one of the classic definitions of a Nazi: a fanatical bureaucrat with a sense of mission. Because skinheads and storm troopers are not particularly dangerous in themselves. They are tools of those in power. It is nationalists equipped with power and brains who make an authoritarian order possible”
@ Viking
I noticed that paragraph as well
Any idea why this website is ALL about racism all of the sudden? While it was racist before, now it’s
taking over like a computer virus
My guess is it’s JOBBIK and election time.
Shouldn’t these people be going door to door campaigning instead of wasting their time on a website with few voters?
You have a group of people, who find it ‘normal’ to stone people to death (mostly women) for what they call moral infractions
…
Until that happens, my opinion regarding Islam will remain low.
justasking at September 16, 2010 4:26 PM
—
If you read the Bible, stoning was common practice at that time
In the ‘Civilized World’ we kill people with injections, gas and electricity, is that less cruel?
The Hindus of India has a ‘proud’ tradition of ‘honour-killings’:
-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/25/triple-murder-india-honour-killings
-
“There are 1,000 “honour killings” a year in India”
So, maybe it is not just about religion, but more a rural mindset, that for us, ‘civilized people’ seems a bit outdated?
Olga@You really are a waste of time and paranoid! No Jobbik guys were on here until me,now.Yes we are very busy campaigning amongst other things as I said to you yesterday.Do not flater yourself for only 5 or 6 regulars seem to frequent this forum nowadays.
@Viking,
“If you read the Bible, stoning was common practice at that time”
Yes, but it is still common practice TODAY. As a matter of fact, another woman has been sentenced to death via stoning in I believe Iran. As soon as Ramadan is over.
“In the ‘Civilized World’ we kill people with injections, gas and electricity, is that less cruel?”
Yes, it is less cruel for it is immediate. Over and done with. Minimal pain to the person condemned to death. Sure beats having your elbows tied back, lowered into a hole in the ground and buried so that you are sticking out from the waist up. THEN GETTING YOUR HEAD BASHED IN BY ‘VOLUNTEERS’ THROWING STONES!
Now, which manner of death would you choose if you had to?
About the Hindus who partake in honour killings…what do you want me to say?
THEN GETTING YOUR HEAD BASHED IN BY ‘VOLUNTEERS’ THROWING STONES!
justasking at September 16, 2010 9:54 PM
—
Beats
* being buried alive (old Swedish execution method, mostly for women),
.
* strapped to a hurdle and dragged by horse through the streets and along the way whipped and hit by the spectators, who also throw rotten food and waste. After being hanged, and while still *alive*, being emasculated, eviscerated, beheaded, and then quartered (Old English method),
.
* Impalement – being pierced with a long stake. The penetration could be through the sides, through the rectum, through the vagina, or through the mouth. This method leads to a painful death, sometimes taking days. The stake would often be planted in the ground, leaving the impaled person suspended to die (Latest use I have seen was during the VietNam War against so called Viet Cong, especially female Vietnamese soldiers)
-
So, in perspective I go for the quickest method, hoping someone was strong enough to throw a big stone, so I would pass out fast
@ Viking,
So, these old Swedish and Old English methods…are they still being practiced?
are they still being practiced?
justasking at September 17, 2010 12:32 AM
—
Buried alive in the Bosnia Wars, mostly ‘Muslim’ men being the victims
.
A more modern variant, “Death by container” has been a cheap means of mass murder used by both the Taliban and the Northern Alliance for at least five years. Abandoned freight containers–international standard size, 40 feet by 8 feet by 8 feet–litter the roads of Afghanistan, rusting reminders of the many tons of aid that have poured into the country over the past 20 years. It was reputedly a savage Uzbek general named Malik Pahlawan who first saw the container’s potential as a killing machine in 1997. After a Taliban assault on Mazar-e Sharif had been repulsed, Pahlawan–according to a subsequent U.N. report–killed some 1,250 Taliban by leaving them in containers in the desert sun. When the containers were opened, it was found the inmates had been grilled black. When the Taliban took Mazar-e Sharif in 1998, they in turn killed several hundred enemies in the same fashion
-
http://www.newsweek.com/2002/08/25/the-death-convoy-of-afghanistan.html
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Since 2002 people have tried to open an investigation in to how much US Special Forces were involved in the killing in similar way of about 3.000 Taliban fighters who had surrendered in November 2001
It took close to 10 years for the US Administration to start an investigation, but it is limited in scope only to their Afghan allies, not the ‘Civilized’ instructors
@ Ricsi
Re: “You really are a waste of time and paranoid! No Jobbik guys were on here until me,now.”
What do you call people like Law, LHVJ and Gandi?
There is a poster by the name of Kovacs Laszlo who also happens to be a JOBBIK supporter – while I obviously disagree with everything he stands for, he is not like the rest of you – doesn’t call people names , doesn’t go nuts and doesn’t cut and paste either religious nonsense or information about Israel, Gaza Strip etc.
I find it comforting when JOBBIK supporters are more like Law, LHVJ, you and a few others, and I am confident you can figure out why.
BTW, there is no reason for you to read my comments, scroll down and ignore them.
If you did get this far and you have a few moments to spare from your busy schedule, I would be interested to know how you would like to see this website used.
You pack of Neo Liberal dumb fucks! Olga and JA, you can’t even see the obvious who Kovacs Laszlo IS! can you? I assume Olga does because she is a provocateur like Wolfi , Viking, Bystander, PH and Cinaed. These are monkeys who deliberately focus on provoking, misinforming and misleading everyday readers. Kovacs Laszlo is a true red commie Jew, and the rest of you idiots are either with him or ignorant suckers.
Olga@ I was referring to that days comments on the thread-but good point,I do not have to read you but I find it hard to let ignorance go without a response.I will try to leave you in your ignorant bliss from now on
As for this forum,it is a waste to debate anything because too many idiots came out saying ‘we are going to find you,expose you etc…’ such cowards can not be debated with,so now this forum is simply a source of amusement,nothing more.
Law again at his best – Jobbik must be proud of him (or not ?):
“You pack of Neo Liberal dumb fucks!
Olga does because she is a provocateur like Wolfi …
monkeys who deliberately focus on provoking …
Kovacs Laszlo is a true red commie Jew, and the rest of you idiots are either with him or ignorant suckers.
Law at September 17, 2010 9:24 AM”
If someone asks me what type of people vote for Jobbik – I just show him my collection of Lawquotes …
PS: This reminds me of a recent dilbert cartoon …
http://www.dilbert.com/2010-09-16/
“It’s totally legal because the copyright law only protects inteelectual property”
@ Ricsi
I changed my mind – if you want to be amused I suggest you read my ignorant comments after all and maybe you can get a chuckle out of them.
Here is your smile for the day from a humourous publication called “Psychology Today” – the stats are from the USA but I don’t believe studies like this are available from Hungarian research:
Regarding the first error, research in criminology and psychology has identified numerous variables that may increase an individual tendency to commit crime. These variables range from social disorganization, dysfunctional environments, crime learning conditions, developmental problems, lack of social control, lack of education, stigmatization, cognitive deficiencies, impulsivity, childhood trauma, as well as some associated demographic variables such as gender, social class and race. The distinction between the relative frequency and the absolute frequency can be explained with the following examples:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-narcissus-in-all-us/200903/mass-murder-is-nothing-fear
For more fun and laughs, you can read the whole article and then draw your own conclusion about
“Gypsy Crime”. If you would like me to post links to other hilarious articles for your amusement, please don’t hesitate ask
“You pack of Neo Liberal dumb fucks! Olga and JA, you can’t even see the obvious who Kovacs Laszlo IS!”
I don’t know about you Olga; but I, could give to shit who this Kovasc/Kovacs Laci is…not like he has any impact on my life.
@ justasking
Kovacs Laszlo is a die hard JOBBIK supporter who
I obviously disagree with – however he is different because he doesn’t attack – states his racist views politely; rather unusual
Law wrote :”Kovacs Laszlo is a true red commie Jew, and the rest of you idiots are either with him or ignorant suckers. ”
Oh, OK – that makes sense – if you are not a red commie Jew then you are an ignorant sucker.
So, do you want to be an ignorant sucker or a Neo Liberal Dumb fuck? I can’t make up my mind so I wanted to know what you are up to although I kind of like to keep my options open.
@Olga,
D
“So, do you want to be an ignorant sucker or a Neo Liberal Dumb fuck?”
My dear girl, I can not be either…my intellect is dazzling!
Oh, have to correct my typos from before. Sentence should have read ’2 shits’ not ‘to shit’. I’m so embarrassed…
could give to shit who
justasking at September 17, 2010 3:49 PM
===
Sentence should have read ’2 shits’ not ‘to shit’. I’m so embarrassed…
justasking at September 17, 2010 4:17 PM
—
No need to be embarrassed for thinking of a ‘Cleveland steamer’
We are all grown-ups on this site…
Well, except Law then
@Wolfi, “It’s totally legal because the copyright
law only protects inteelectual property” that was
an actual lol there…
@Olga, thx for the article, that was interesting
stuff…
@Ricsi, you seem to think we CARE that you claim
to know the identity of various Jobbik-type
posters (not just Kovacs but you’ve done this
before, all pleased with yourself about your hide-
and-seek game). So, yawn, you *know* who Kovacs
is? Who cares? So you know an exact count of
Jobbik members here and who does what at your
stupid dress-up meetings? YAWWWWN.
@ Bystander
The Russians and the Ukranians my girlfriend teaches simply used Israel as a stepping stone and are not anti-Semites
They told her Israel was a beautiful country but they had no interest in raising their kids there – so they were more or less appreciative free loaders .
Hopefully they worked and paid taxes while they were there.
Some people use Canada as a stepping stone to get to the USA – such is life.
Bystander@If you are going to waste my time at least get your facts right_I have no idea who Kovács is and could not care less! I never mentioned him and know nothing of him so please at least get that in your bigotted zionazi head.OK?
@ricsi:
” Kovacs Laszlo is a true red commie Jew, and the rest of you idiots are either with him or ignorant suckers.
Law at September 17, 2010 9:24 AM ”
bystander has the same problem as I – you terrible triplets are so indistinguishable – the same crap – doesn’t really matter what’s the name behind those idiocies, you’re all the same …
Wolfi. Nil by mouth. You are on a drip feed of concentrated palinka – or similar.
Science Fiction has played a big part in your life
and you are still the same fat, space traveler, that you always were.
Olga. Take time out to read the last, at least, six contributions on this thread. What use to Hungary, or humanity, are they?
This site was once one of my favorites. It has slowly declined, like good friend Wolfi, into the
depths of depravity hitherto unequalled in the arena of political debate.
BTW.
Canada as a stepping stone to the USA? Oh my goodness we are all in trouble!!
@Mama,
Regarding your post…you’re right. Politics.hu is not the place that is was when I first joined over a year ago. It has stopped being fun.
And yes, I acknowledge my part in it’s demise due to some of my posts.
@ Alabama
I obviously don’t agree with you about Wolfi but other than that part I do agree – surprised you didn’t say something insulting to me thus I decided to reply. Maybe you have a quota as far as insults go or you are sick of reading them
I am hoping this is “cyclical” and things will get back to normal after the October election, in the meantime I am not negating my share of going off into tangents.
It is easier to immigrate to Canada than to the US – some people come here first but their aim is to end up in the US; maybe it’s not like this any more but even 10 years ago that was the case. The trm used was “brain drain” – I believe that’s a term used in Hungary as well.
@olga: Since we’re OT anyway – Hungarian TV just reported in the news that Jimi Hendrix died 40 years ago – they showed some very nice pieces, him playing at Woodstock etc …
@bananamama:
You should maybe talk/write to the jobos who fill this site with spam about their hatred of Israel and Gypsies and liberals and gays and …
I’m still interested in “Hungarian politics” since I live here …
BTW: I just returned from the “szüret” – helping my neighbour with harvesting the grapes and wine making (he had to add a lot of sugar) so I’m a bit tired …
Wolfi. If calling me a banana is your best shot,
well, I’m going to keep my powder dry.
Olga. I leave you to your fantasies and predilection for daydreaming.
Canada, the USA, and Jo’anna/Jo’burg seem to held special emphasis for you. It always seems strange
to me that you hold these three places more important than Hungary.
I can honestly say that I have given everything I can to improve my position here and to genuinely help others.
It has been an uphill struggle but I am pleased with progress so far.
Local elections next month and everybody I talk to is unconcerned.
I cannot really make a reasoned judgment on Orbi’s 100 days except to say very little seems to have changed and most people are disillusioned
and, in a lot of cases totally p.ss.d off.
I am tired of the Jobbik-Jew discussions and cannot see that Jobbik have made any difference either.
There are good and bad people in every walk of life. Slamming Jews seems to be a national pastime
here and, in many ways, is a longstanding joke
among the locals.
justasking. Don’t be too concerned about letting the side down. Overall your posts have been very
good over the last year or so.
I turned into a bit of a monster because I was sick and tired of reading the same tit-for-tat posts without any real effort being made by
contributors on real issues.
This site is very good and we must all strive to maintain standards.We don’t want to lose it
whether it be for malware or plummeting standards,
reasons.
Apologies. I have double up on some comments in my last post.
I am losing it I think…better go to bed…
@ Alabama
Except for your usual personal shots at me, your posting is making a lot of sense and it’s interesting, thus you choose to “retire” Too bad
Re: “Canada, the USA, and Jo’anna/Jo’burg seem to held special emphasis for you. It always seems strangeto me that you hold these three places more important than Hungary.”
Kindly get it thorugh your head that my ancient posting about liking “Joanna” has as much to do with a political statement as my liking “Looking out my Back Door” has to do with doors or liking “I shot the Sherriff” has to do with gun control. So take South Africa out of the equation when it comes to “special emphasis”
I grew up in Canada, so of course I deeply care about the country and evertyhing that happens in the US impacts on us, therefore it’s relevant to me. No big mystery
Hungary is very important to me; In Canada, everyone has always considered me “Hungarian”; I get emails from friends every time Hungary is in the news and I will never consider myself or be considered by others as “Canadian” as my kids are who were born here. Ironic that the only place I am just not “Hungarian enough” is a place like this website
BTW, just like you completely misunderstood “Joanna” , you chose to do the same with my opinions re the Roma
From my perspective, your last posting was one of the very few really relevant and interesting postings for the past few days and you are apologizing for it. I guess it’s back to the irrelavant Ogre shit