January 14th, 2011

Trade union argues new pension fund law violates human rights

The law on private pension funds violates human dignity, personal data privacy and the right for free self-determination, the chemical industry trade union (VDSZ) has written in a submission to the Constitutional Court. The organization is asking for the court to examine the law without delay and initiate its annulment.

One requirement of the law criticized by the VDSZ is that private pension fund members have to appear in person at the Central Administration of National Pension Insurance. VDSZ President Tamás Székely thinks the aim of this method is influencing and hindering free choice.

In related news, some Hungarian private pension fund members living abroad run into obstacles when trying to make a declaration that they wish to remain members. The law allows Hungarians working or studying abroad to make a declaration at an embassy, but they have to provide proof of employment or studies. For this reason, unemployed citizens and stay-at-home mothers living abroad are being turned away by embassies. [napi.hu, index.hu]

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  • Paul

    At least some of the pension companies are sending out, with all the other related bumpf, a declaration for people to sign if they feel they have been intimidated by the state into giving up their private pension rights.
    I’m guessing this confirmation will form the basis of a later appeal to Strasbourg?

  • Leto

    I wonder if this postcommie trade union chairman holds a high paying job at such a pension fund, too.
    http://www.hirado.hu/Hirek/2010/12/03/18/Szakszervezetek_tuntetnek_a_magannyugdijpenztarak_atalakitasa_ellen.aspx

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU Viking

    The question is if he is right in his statement, not if he is a “postcommie”
    To be such a strong Fidesz-supporter you use very much the classical communist tactic of attacking the messenger
    Wonder why?

  • Leto

    The ancient Romans already knew the real question: Cui prodest? That’s what I was asking, postcommie.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU Viking

    Cui prodest
    Leto at January 14, 2011 2:49 PM

    So principles are nothing, just the urge to please the powers at be…

  • Leto

    It goes without saying that you failed to address the crucial question, posed in Latin for fun.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU Viking

    It goes without saying that you failed to address the crucial question, posed in Latin for fun.
    Leto at January 14, 2011 3:47 PM

    No I did not
    I did exactly address the real and most important question:
    * Are principles more important than day-to-day politics for short-time gain?

    For everyone to see, for you the answer is the latter
    For me principles have always been more important than people and short-time gains
    I use this rule also in business, long and good relations are better than a fast gain/win
    Needless to say, Orban is my total opposite in this case, that is why he and I do not go together

  • Bystander

    That Leto seems to have a “thing” about calling
    people “postcommies”… If I was a betting man
    (like DoubleH63) I would guess he’s been called a
    “Neo-Nazi” so many times, it’s just a knee-jerk
    reaction to call everyone *else* the exact opposite.
    And yet it’s STILL boring!

  • Leto

    @Bystander:
    Hey, I’m still here! You promised you’d be back when I’d leave. ;)

  • Bystander

    I hadn’t counted on seeing the Witch Elle on this
    site which reminded me that as boring as it is to
    read “postcommie” every five lines, that I should
    keep my sights on the *real* extremists, not people
    whose choice of words annoys me. If I lived in
    Hungary, I probably would’ve held my nose and voted
    Fidesz last elections, so maybe I stay awhile more,
    ignore your unfortunate daily “catch phrase” and
    focus on the true Evil ones around here.
    I’m just happy some of the “real” deranged types
    seem to have been keeping a lower profile here for
    now.

  • Leto

    Yup, I focus on the true Evil Ones around here. The “holdudvar” of the “szürkeállomány pártja”(“Halo” of “the party of grey matter”) is surely included in that.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU Viking

    The law allows Hungarians working or studying abroad to make a declaration at an embassy, but they have to provide proof of employment or studies. For this reason, unemployed citizens and stay-at-home mothers living abroad are being turned away by embassies

    This ‘leto’ think is a Good Thing, then complaining about it would be anti-Orban and therefore it must be suppressed
    .
    What were we saying before on increased State Bureaucracy?
    Oh, no, that is also anti-Orban and not allowed…

  • makutsi

    I wonder if the law in which the socialist government made it compulsory for people to participate in private pension funds violated any human dignity, personal data privacy and the right for free self-determination.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU Viking

    compulsory for people to participate in private pension funds
    makutsi at January 14, 2011 9:56 PM

    Well, that never happened, so that is a lame excuse
    What happened was that new entrants to the Pension scheme had the *opportunity* to chose a Private Fund, instead of trusting the State
    And 3 million Hungarians did
    And now Orban takes some of their money to plug the holes in the State Budget, instead of doing other austerity measures, which he likely will have to do anyway
    Both he and the FinMin have promised severe cuts in State spending, to be announced in March (probably after the March 15 celebrations for PR-reasons)

  • Leto

    @Viking
    Yet another lie from you, postcommie. makutsi was absolutely right, the MSZP-SZDSZ government made compulsory indeed for new entrants to the pension scheme to choose a private fund and a part of their pension contribution was paid to them until this measure was taken about two months ago. We’re not talking about “magánnyugdíjpénztárak”, not “önkéntes magánnyugdíjpénztárak” here.

  • Leto

    correction: We’re talking about “magánnyugdíjpénztárak” and not about “önkéntes magánnyugdíjpénztárak” here.

  • Anti-Leto

    Leto, “correction: We’re talking about “magánnyugdíjpénztárak” and not about “önkéntes magánnyugdíjpénztárak” here.” Don’t worry, you are not slipping into a leleto POV. Mistakes like this commonly occur when Leto and Anti-Leto collide.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU Viking

    We’re talking about “magánnyugdíjpénztárak” and not about “önkéntes magánnyugdíjpénztárak” here.
    Leto at January 15, 2011 12:44 AM

    Correct, my mistake
    “In January 1, 1998 a new, three-pillar pension system was introduced in Hungary. It will replace about a 1/4 of the existing unfunded public system by a funded private system from 2013. This transition is obligatory for people entering the labor market after June 30, 1998 and optional for others. Meanwhile the public pillar is also reformed. Pensionable age is increasing significantly but smoothly, wage index-ation is replaced by a combined wage-price indexation and the link between earnings and benefits will be rectified between 2009–2013″

    http://www.econ.core.hu/file/download/mtdp991/mtdp991.pdf

    The link is from a study, critical of the new system, in 1999, so it freed from today’s debate

    The interesting part in today’s debate is the difference in handling of individual assets:
    1) In the State Pillar, individuals do not have assets. They just get the pension they get when it is time to get it
    .
    2) It was *obligatory* for new entrants to the Pension system, so they did not lose anything
    .
    3) Others, already in the State Pillar could opt in to the new Private Fund Pillar

    So the difference to now is that people’s savings were not hit by the State’s action, like today
    And that is a very big difference
    Today the rules are changing during the game, not just for new players
    And that will most likely be in the EU-courts

  • Leto

    @Viking:
    I’m sorry to let you down but those “EU-courts”
    will have nothing to do with this. Pension
    systems are of national competence. There will
    be all sort of whining and claims based on “the
    sanctuality of private property” but those will
    be swept aside. What happened here is that
    handling a part of the pension contribution
    everybody has to pay was diverted to private
    companies. People can choose to stay with these,
    so far about 4,000 did, or they can return to
    the pension fund handled by the state, that’s
    all.

  • Anti-Leto

    Leto, you have left out some important information (That is very leleto of you). If one stays in the private fund there is a substantial penalty and you can not pass it on to your family. Only those with large gains on their funds will find it profitable to do so. Again US conservatives are very very confused when the jobletos act like baletos.

  • Leto

    Loyal MSZP-SZDSZ supporters pledged that they
    will make the sacrifice whatever it takes. :)
    Anyway, party leader Mesterházy gave his
    personal guarantee to everyone that “they will
    compensate” and they will force people into
    private pension funds again provided they’d ever
    get to power. So no worries.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU Viking

    Pension systems are of national competence. There will be all sort of whining and claims based on “the sanctuality of private property” but those will be swept aside. What happened here is that
    handling a part of the pension contribution
    everybody has to pay was diverted to private
    companies
    Leto at January 15, 2011 1:24 AM

    1) True that “Pension systems are of national competence”, so that will not be an issue in the EU-courts (probably), but can still be an issue in the Hungarian Constitutional Court (HCC)
    Until the HCC has decided on the complaints brought to it, we better wait
    .
    2) What definitly will be an issue in either the HCC and/or the EU-courts is the *way* this new law was *implemented*, as can be seen in the article
    The text of Laws can be discussed for ever, but the *implementation* of any Law is always the most interesting aspect and that is the part EU-courts normally work with and they have a history on protecting private property very strong against State intervention
    Something that even Sweden had to learn during the years, where traditional public right to expropriate private property was deemed illegal, even it was a century old tradition in Sweden
    .
    3) You show an increasing arrogance for people who are concerned for their pension. That is something people will remember for future elections and you do your party bad by displaying this arrogance
    .
    4) The 2nd Pillar started 1 January 1998
    Why did not Orban change the Pension system when in Govt 98-02?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I5BGsK5ZAU Viking

    What happened here is that handling a part of the pension contribution everybody has to pay was diverted to private companies
    Leto at January 15, 2011 1:24 AM

    5) Interesting that you use the word “private companies”
    Do you have anything against “private companies”?
    Is there a principle in your/Orban/Fidesz’ world that states “private companies” = bad?
    Can we, derived from your proven logic, the opposite to “private companies”, being the State = Good?
    You want Politicians to handle *as much money as possible*?
    In similar way they have handled the BKV and MAV?
    That is your guiding star – The Enormous State doing and controlling All Business?

    If you/Orban/Fidesz *really* wanted to improve the 2nd Pillar, why not follow the example of other countries:
    A) The State starts its own fund, which these so Good Politician promises will have the least cost and highest yield, and this *without* sponsoring it wit Tax Money. Same rules apply
    .
    B) Introduce caps on administrative charges the Fund can take out
    .
    C) Let fund-members freely change which fund to use for the future, so competition among the Funds increases
    It will be interesting to have the lowest cost and the highest yields last year, so you can get more customers for the next (and hence higher profit for the owners)

    Instead of doing these things to curb some of the things that upset people, you/Orban/Fidesz destroys the whole system which was planned to be fully implemented 2013
    And why did you/they not do that 98-02?

  • Eisenhower

    I remember very clearly as a child around 1954
    standing in a mom and pop grocery store.
    Two Jewish women were reacting to a radio news story
    about the holocaust.
    I will never forget what the one woman said to the
    other: “If I had known they were being gassed, I
    would have never gotten on the train.” So,
    obviously, six million others didn’t know about it
    either! And she also survived, whatever camp she was
    in; and, from her statement, she did not witness any
    gassings either, because this was the first she had
    heard about it!
    Sooner or later, the liar gets caught in his lies.

  • http://pbskids.org/curiousgeorge/ Curious George

    Yeah right, Dwight! Tell us more unverifiable stories from your ‘childhood’. I’m really curious **.

  • Eisenhower

    Auschwitz camp until 1989: note on plaque the “4
    million” victims. The plaque currently on display at
    Auschwitz since 2002 suddenly reduced number of
    victims to 1.5 million, a casual reduction in the
    number of deaths by 2.5 million which never appeared
    in the American “free press”

  • Eisenhower

    Auschwitz, one of the largest concentration camps,
    had only about twenty ovens in its crematory. The
    crematoria at the various concentration camps were
    very crude and required lots of fuel and many hours
    to consume one body. One researcher has calculated
    that, given the exact number of ovens available and
    hours per body, the ovens would have to be going day
    and night from the War’s beginning until 1975 before
    that many bodies could be cremated. Are you
    beginning to comprehend the absurdity of such a
    claim? Yet, it is repeated by the Zionist-dominated
    bias machine on an almost daily basis, and it is
    force-fed to our school children at taxpayer expense
    and Zionist urging.

  • Eisenhower

    The Nuremberg trials were conducted by the OSS
    (Office of Strategic Services, forerunner of the
    CIA) at the behest of the Zionist International. The
    Israeli State did not yet exist. The vast bulk of
    “evidence” was provided by the pro-Zionist Soviet
    Union. Neither of these two organizations could
    possibly be considered fair or trustworthy. Again,
    consider the source.

  • http://pbskids.org/curiousgeorge/ Curious George

    Sooner or later, the liar gets caught in his lies.
    Dwight at January 15, 2011 11:30 AM
    @Dwight – Is that another of your mama’s childhood stories from Auschwitz? Story telling isn’t your forte. Better stick to playing marbles or make-up. Or, maybe, you are playing make-up.

  • Observer

    Curious George is a monkey.

  • Pro-Leto (olga)

    Hey Curious George
    How was your vacation? I know you posted where you were but I can’t remember – probably drinking beer with Osama
    Have you noticed that “Leto” joined the “group” While I obviously think it’s ridiculous to consider Viking a “postcommie” his postings (Praise the Lord!) are 90% related current issues in Hungary
    Moreover, I find him even more interesting than some of the regular non racist hate spewing crowd including you, because I tend to agree with everything you guys post since as you live in Hungary and I respect your views. It’s nice to have someone whose postings are actually informative, relevant and not having to wonder which mental hospital the computer is located in yet not buying into the “postcommie” comments
    By reading your 1.40 PM missive, I see you are on a roll again, which goes to show you that even a “Muslim” can have a great sense of humour. I hope you have shared the secret of your new faith with your wife by now – the truth shall set you free (I just thought that sentence up – maybe it will catch on)
    Have a good weekend.

  • http://pbskids.org/curiousgeorge/ Curious George

    @Observer – right on, brutha bonobo! Howz mama doing? A very happy noo yars to you & mama, and hope uz brown/black/green folk dont grabs her karacsonyi kenyer again like 2 suns ago. Tell mama I misses her.

  • Voice of Reason

    “Hey Curious George How was your vacation”
    Strictly on topic, chit-chat between the Dummy and the Monkey.

  • http://pbskids.org/curiousgeorge/ Curious George

    @Pro-Leto – Howdy! Vacation went really good except for the last day. Went to see bisquetti country, but didn’t get to see papa benny. We even had some real I-talian food once (mcD’s with parmesan,… really). Ended up with gout when I got back. Must’ve been the other fake (but rich) I-talian food & wine.
    Yeah, been reading your mentor, Leto. Sounds a bit like JD (or Joe Diet(rich)) with a twist,…. which reminds me, I might need to go on a diet soon.
    Hey, us “muslims” are the funniest guys around (next to George Carlin, of course). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WREOFt-a_L0&feature=related
    Anyway, if that video doesn’t do it for you, check out the Carlin vids. Have a great weekend.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co5r9Q_BKEU Achmed

    That’s not funny, monkey boy.
    This is funny:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co5r9Q_BKEU

  • Leto

    @Viking:
    “The 2nd Pillar started 1 January 1998
    Why did not Orban change the Pension system
    when in Govt 98-02?”
    That’s true. And the answer is for several
    reasons: 1/ Hungary’s economy was doing really
    well (as it was admitted even by the
    postcommies: “nice but we’ll do it better!” 2/
    the lethal debt trap was built by the
    postcommies after 2002 and this admittedly
    emergency measure is much needed to try to
    escape it 3/ the first Orban government didn’t
    have such a huge support and majority
    olga: Thanks! :)))

  • Leto

    @Viking:
    Yup, I’ve got a lot to hold against
    those “private companies” whose market is
    created by the state, like in this case by
    forcing people to be clients to them.
    Similarly I’ve got much against
    monopolic “private companies”. Especially if
    these monopolies were converted directly from a
    Hungarian state monopoly. The water supply
    companies come to my mind, for example.

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