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October 18th, 2011

Memo to Jobbik: If you don’t want to be called Nazis, don’t hang around with Hitler

Supporters of Jobbik and the Magyar Gárda – and the other “citizen defense forces” that sprung up following the banning of the original Jobbik-linked group – have generally pushed back hard and fast whenever anyone has tarred them with the word “Nazi,” or by association with its most (in)famous human symbol. A good example is the comment thread on this 2009 post about the discovery that a webpage for a local Gárda chapter had approvingly published a quotation widely attributed to Hitler (and credited on the page to “A.H.”).

Which is why I must say I was a bit surprised to see the Hitler look-alike (new Hungarian word for the day: Hitler hasonmás) pictured above in a gallery of photos on Index taken last Friday at the Jobbik-organized event commemorating the 2006 murder in the northeast village of Olaszliszka of a teacher by a mob of local Roma/Gypsies.

Of course, one shouldn’t be shocked to find a Führerdoppelgänger marching alongside a bunch of Gárdistas who look like they’d probably be happy to be mistaken for Sturmabteilungen themselves. But the same commemoration saw speeches by at least three Jobbik lawmakers: Zsolt Endrésik, György Gyula Zagyva and János Volner. I actually thought at first that the műhitler was an agent provocateur sent in by some impish anti-Nazis to make the marchers look bad. Apparently not.

While I wouldn’t necessarily hold any of the three – or Jobbik – responsible for some fruitcake showing up to their party dressed like ‘dolf, the apparent lack of any response on their part does say something. As does what appears a general lack of response around the country as a whole; a web search for “Hitler hasonmás” found this incident buried by a flurry of translated articles about a kitten in an English animal shelter no one wanted to adopt because it looks like Hitler. Sadly for Hungary, it seems that kitty would have an easier time finding a new home here.

Erik D'Amato (@erikdamato) is publisher and editor-in-chief of the All Hungary Media Group.
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  • Kong Fo Panda

    Arent those demonstration illegal?
    Why doesnt the police arrest those guys?
    I repeat, whatta fucked up place hungary is…..

    • diver

      Freedom of speach my freind. These marches happen all over the world even in the states so whos fucked up

  • hcreed

    Hell, come to England. There are groups like this popping up all over the place.

  • Freedom

    I seriously doubt that Jobbik cares what their distractors have to say?

    Those who attack Jobbik fail to look at their own problems and fail to recognize where they went wrong.

    Anyone can showup to a Jobbik meeting and snap a pciture, for all we know it could be a Fidesz agent, but you know what, it doesn’t matter, because if someone wants to dress up like Hitler himself – who is Jobbik to stop them? Jobbik can’t control the way people present themselves or the way they take care of themselves.

    • Viking

      Freedom says:
      October 18, 2011 at 3:50 pm
      if someone wants to dress up like Hitler himself – who is Jobbik to stop them?

      You are either very “gullible” (ask your friend ‘ricsi’ to explain that word) or just trying a fast one
      Hungarian officially approved meetings/demos gives the organisers the right (and also the responsibility) to decide who is allowed ‘inside’ the event, or not
      For this the organisers need to have their own guards, who can tell people who are not welcome to leave. If those told to leave, do not do that, the organisers can ask the Police to remove the ‘unwanted’, to a place just outside the area defined for the event
      .
      If I would go as a Giant Pink Dick looking like Chairman Vona on any “Jobbik”-event, I think we would count the seconds before I would be ‘urged to leave’
      .
      The simple fact is that there is no story of Mr A Hilter being ‘urged to leave’, obviously then no one in the meeting took excemption to his presence. That is the story
      If it was a stunt, then it was a successful one

    • Pete H.

      And all those guys dressed like Arrow Cross soldiers are plants also?

  • mzperx

    Why would anybody want to look like Hitler, I have no idea. Pretty sick.

    Maybe, if Gyrucsany and the MSZP will be finally flushed down the toilet of history, and there will be space for a credible centre-left political force in Hungary (that can distance itself from the bloody baggage and inhuman past of the current communist infrastructure), the extremist phenomena on the right will disappear as well.

    • Viking

      mzperx says:
      October 18, 2011 at 7:52 pm

      Maybe, if Gyrucsany and the MSZP will be finally flushed down the toilet of history

      the extremist phenomena on the right will disappear as well

      Intelligent analysis ‘leto’!
      So how do you explain the different Neo-Nazi organisations in Europe today?
      MSZP and Gyurcsány are responsible for those also?

    • Elle

      ‘Why would anybody want to look like Hitler, I have no idea.’

      Is it the short-back-and-sides, the side part and the fetchingly floppy forelock? :)

      • mzperx

        That must be it :)

  • contraflow

    tell me that the fat pig in the front isn’t an ernst rohm lookalike
    http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo/rights-managed/IH183875/portrait-of-ernst-rohm

  • Pete H.

    “While I wouldn’t necessarily hold any of the three – or Jobbik – responsible for some fruitcake showing up to their party dressed like ‘dolf, the apparent lack of any response on their part does say something. ”

    Jobbik politicians have been showing up at rallies for several years in which members of the crowd dress much like White Cross soldiers. What’s one Hitler dude to them?

    • Pete H.

      Meant to write Arrow Cross!

  • olga

    @ Viking

    I would bet a dozen dobos tortas that mxperx is not Leto

    I found Leto’s postings really interesting despite the fact he looked at the world differently than I did , but he would never have attacked me on a personal level (Kertesz thread) like mxperx did. He had more class regardless of the animosity between the two of you so imho Leto simply replaced Bob in your life :) ) Thus I have dusted off my soap box and felt it was incumbent upon me to come to his defense since I miss his postings, and his Hungarian lessons

    While he was over the top about Orban and hated the MSZP, he still agreed that all Democratic countries needed at least two viable political parties to choose from and so far the Hungarian electorate doesn’t seem to have many choices

    I have no idea if every JOBBIK supporter is a Nazi sympathizer or not, but allowing a Hitler look alike to be marching amongst the MG (or whatever they are called today) certainly makes a statement. I wonder how long a Rakosi, Hitler or Stalin look alike would have lasted in that crowd.

    • Leto

      Hi Olga,

      You’ve won all those “Dobos-torta”s. :) justasking dropped me a mail about this thread, so I’ve peeped back. No promises I’d be too active because I’m kinda busy these days.
      These idiotic Jobbik/Magyar Gárda guys are going mental. I don’t think they are Nazi at all but they want scandals and media attention. Really moronic.

      Cheers

  • olga

    Sorry. I meant “I wonder how long a Rakosi, Lenin or Stalin look alike would have lasted in that crowd”

  • Tapolczy

    So a deranged man thought halloween came early. So what? Why is this website getting pluaged by garbage-politics, the kind we see in the United Spears of Beiber. None of this affects the ACTUAL politics of the aforemented party, so why even bother? Is this in any way condoned by Jobbik? No. Is this man tied to Jobbik in any way shape or form? No. Is this website posting polically-motivated articles that distract from the actual politics of the country? Yes.
    Get F*cked.

  • The enforcer

    I just find this so hard to understand. This guy should be either placed in a mental institute or be dropped in the middle of Israel or anywhere in the UK. He would then be accommodated……

  • Farkas László

    Dear Tapolczy,

    I found “United Spears of Bieber” amusing! The reality behind it is not amusing to me, as so much of the American population is disinterested, uninformed and disconnected from substantive news, preferring to focus on sports and celebrities.

    Hi Olga,

    I too feel that two individuals are not the same. Leto was suspected by someone here of being a govt plant and mouthpiece. I don’t know if that’s true, but I notice she departed just when Erik had to make the hotline/media law related changes to this website. Some of her views were not “Article 24 compliant”, and I wonder if that had something to do with her “recall” as a spokeswoman. As to the other lady, I have to give her some credit for her more recent posts. She’s cleaning up her act and avoiding personal attacks; someone as informed as her shouldn’t have to resort to them in order to get a point across or to be taken more seriously.

    • justasking

      @Laci,

      ‘Leto’ was a guy.

      • spectator

        Correct!
        And a nervous wreck, as he was – poor thing couldn’t quite handle the contradiction between his duty and his common sense, or reason, to put it simple.

        A frightening example of how the present system corrupts and deforms otherwise quite bright people.

        Requiescat in peace, Leto!

        • justasking

          @spectator,

          And your entire post is simply your opinion…correct?!

          • spectator

            As always, dear!
            Otherwise I just agreed with you about the gender of our late friend.

            Actually I sitting alone in a far away country and express my own opinion, nothing else, I’m out of there in the last quarter of century or so, I have no contacts, nor interests there.

            In case of it rhymes with some or other ideology or party-program – is purely coincidence, nothing else.

            I look at this whole charade clearly as an independent human being – with quite strict moral values.
            Believe me or not – actually I don’t care about that, but anyhow – I have no favorite “side”, nor favorite politician, only some basic values, and these doesn’t include national socialism, chauvinism, racism, and a few more in this line – you may complete freely – of political- or ideological views.

            Otherwise, you – of all people – may noticed that so far, anyway, didn’t you?

            I don’t like lies, I don’t buy bullshit – not even if bound in the tricolor.
            Unfortunately I’ve known (personally) most of these actors way back, as well as many of the others did – I don’t think I should elaborate more on this, even if I could – so, I think, they should know better than try to get away with so cheap tricks.

            Anyhow – this whole thing has no personal effect on me, besides of makes me sad, to see, that a bunch of people making a fool of themselves.

            We may not agree in a lots of things, but we may do that as civilized human beings – I hope – I have no problem with this.

            Have a nice day!
            /

  • Big Fish

    ….and the point is? The war ended and German fascism died nearly 70 yrs ago. Who cares. Let politics take it course. Too many double standard nonesense around the world, why pick on this. SIlly.

    • Leto

      Actually it was “nazism” in German. That’s quite different from fascism. Nazism is much more like communism, that is a far left ideology, while fascism can be classified as a far right-wing thing. Political extremities do have many common features, of course.

      • http://www.allhungary.hu Erik D’Amato

        I’m very sympathetic to this position/proposition, especially after having read the (excellent) book “Liberal Fascism.” But it’s damn near impossible to get people to change the habit of conflating the two. And I must admit I sometimes get doubt myself about the differences in practice rather than theory. BTW, I just went to the English-language wikipedia page for Fascism and, to my slight surprise, found it pretty lucid. But again, good for pointing this out, Leto.

        • Leto

          “But it’s damn near impossible to get people to change the habit of conflating the two.”

          Indeed. The reason is that the Soviet Union was among the victors and the Soviets spent big efforts to equate Nazism and fascism in order to distance their quite similar ideology from Nazism. And the political left in Western Europe and in the US were eager to help to spread this misconception. So there we are. It may be a wind mill fight but it’s still always worth pointing this out. Gutta cavat lapidem. :)

          • http://www.allhungary.hu Erik D’Amato

            Yup. BTW, for me the best way to talk to people about it is to draw attention to the *huge* difference between the Franco regime – which was clerical and otherwise a throwback – and Fascist Italy and Germany, which were both Socialist in orientation, secular or even anti-clerical, and big into commmie-style “New Man” stuff. Big big difference.

          • Elle

            ‘the habit of conflating the two’.

            But you are a bit confused too, aren’t you, Erik? The efforts of you and yours have so far been to associate Jobbik, the Árpátsáv and the Arrow Cross. Yet there was nothing at all socialist about the latter. You cannot call them fascists either, given your above (partly sound) analysis.

        • Leto

          Well, classical fascism is Italian, of course. You do have a point that Mussolini was mostly Socialist in orientation, too (like Hitker’s national socialism) but Italian fascism was still much more right-wing than Hitler’s secular, explicitely anti-Christian (with Neopagan overtones!) regime was. Not to mention the class-based (not solely race-based!) ideology and all those striking similarities with contemporary Stalinism/Leninism. As for Franco’s regime, I’d rather call it a fascistoid, authorative dictatorship, though calling it fascism is not off the mark.

        • procastinator

          Great Book :)

      • spectator

        Actually, fascism originally Fascismo – was an Italian variation of the Nazi ideology, not at all that different.

        The word originate from the “fascio di combattimento” – the combat-fighters bound, where the fascio – fasces in latin – is the bundle, the roman symbol of authority – established by il Duce, Benito Mussolini already sometimes after WWI.

        While the German Fascism really died long ago, the ideology still alive and kicking, thank you.

        Just the same shit, as ever, mind you, but all the old crap new to a newborn, as we know.

        • Leto

          This is exactly what I was talking about. The legacy of the Soviet propagandists lives on like shown above.

          So once again: There wasn’t fascism in Germany. It was Nazism, aka National Socialism. There are certainly all sort of similarities between the two ideologies (and the resulting dictatorships) but Nazism is akin to Communism. No wonder that the Soviet Union almost entered the Axis Powers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Axis_talks

  • Elle

    ‘Sadly for Hungary, it seems that kitty would have an easier time finding a new home here.’

    As soon as Kitler hit the news in the UK, demand for him became overwhelming: http://www.rtlklub.hu/hirek/kulfold/cikk/377071 Unfortunately, I missed out. ‘Sadly for Britain’, Erik?

    • Elle

      PS: Erik and Leto re nazi/fascist, ‘the habit of conflating the two’.

      A mainstay of Jobbik-bashing has so far been to present its fondness for the Árpádsáv as its declamation of its Arrow Cross leanings. (I cannot account for the Jobbik-bashers’ club-footed effort to associate my 800-year-old flag with the Arrow Cross.) Jobbik was called ‘Nazi’ on that basis. Yet there was nothing at all socialist about the Arrow Cross. Erik is himself quite confused or the desirability or lack thereof in the conflation of Nazi and Fascist, as his conversation with Leto makes apparent.

      Good to see you back, Leto, whether or not you are a ‘a govt plant and mouthpiece’! (Sheesh!)

      • Leto

        Elle, I’ve never had anything to do with the government except that the private companies I worked sometimes had government projects.

        • Elle

          Oh, dear! I did not seriously mean to suggest that you are a gov. plant. On the contrary, I thought the suggestion downright silly. I’m sorry I made you feel that you have to explain anything.

          • mzperx

            I just could not resist to line up here. :) Did you guys know that the three of us are the one and the same ‘lady’? :) (but don’t tel anyone) :)

        • Elle

          Divided or multiplied or conceived as an unholy trinity? In any case, some ‘lady’, we, in the world of what might not have been. ‘To what avail!’ she cried, ‘lest chains break to a hammer flame, and fascists/nazis/hitler kittens unbolt the dark?’

          • mzperx

            Not only a brain, but also a poetic streak. Not bad at all.

          • Elle

            She preens … :) :) :) . You are not at all bad yourself, mzperx. But this is self-love, don’t forget.

          • mzperx

            :) :)

  • olga

    Hey Leto

    Nice to see you back – I knew about the email from JA now I just have to collect those dobos tortas from Viking.

    I mentioned this on another thread but the word “Nazi” and “Fascist” no longer mean what they used to mean, just like the word “gay” took on new meaning. Then of course Obama has become a “Socialist” according to the Tea Party, so we need a new dictionary these days.

    I wish to God that JOBBBIK , the MG and all the lunatics and their publicity stunts would just go away and/or be ignored – they are just a distraction from Hungary’s real problems and make the country look bad on the world stage.

  • olga

    @ Leto

    Forgot to give you this link – it’s a welcome back gift

    I never pretended to understand what’s best for Hungary except for having JOBBIK disappear like a bad rash but I knew you would like the article.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ab635bee-f65a-11e0-86dc-00144feab49a.html#axzz1bLAwEsgP

    • Leto

      Ah, thanks a lot, maybe next month I’ll unwrap my gift. :) (I was told “You have reached your monthly limit of articles.” )

      • olga

        Leto – article was from the Financial Times – of course it’s biased, all political articles are biased when they are written by the member of the party. However, it was the Orban gov’t that put an end to the “costume party” so the part about the JOOBIK sounds correct.
        _________________________________________________________
        Hungarian democracy’s most effective defenceFrom György Schöpflin MEP.

        Sir, Ian Bremmer accuses the Hungarian government of “democratic rollbacks” since coming to power (“Hungary’s new path is the hidden danger to Europe”, October 10). In doing so, he demonstrates that he has failed to understand what is happening in Hungary.

        When the Fidesz-led coalition took office, the country was on its knees. The economic situation was dire, public administration falling apart, the socialist government mired in corruption. The two-thirds majority won by Victor Orbán was a demand from the Hungarian electorate to clean up the mess. The government is doing that and, predictably, it has outraged those on the left who present Fidesz’s reforms as anti-democratic, authoritarian, autocratic, xenophobic (take your pick).

        Reality is different. The constitutional court has retained virtually all its functions; only in one restricted area of economic policy can it not intervene. The National Bank retains the same independence that it had under the socialists. The rule of law has been strengthened, not weakened. The procuracy and the investigative authority have been pursuing criminality, including by politicians and regardless of party affiliation. The media law, which attracted the unthinking opprobrium of the opposition and those abroad who parroted its views, has produced none of the horror-filled outcomes that were predicted. The citizenship law, the aim of which is to ensure that Hungarians from neighbouring countries are not treated as foreigners in Hungary, is likewise working well. The new constitution is well within the bounds of best practice in Europe and has considerable popular support.

        The real danger to democracy in Hungary lies elsewhere, with Jobbik, the far-right party, which is successfully holding on to its 12-15 per cent support. Opposition voices at home and abroad seem quite unable to grasp that Fidesz is the most effective defence that democracy in Hungary has against Jobbik. If, as seems to be the case, the strategy of commentators like Mr Bremmer is to undermine Fidesz by discrediting it, they should really be careful of what they wish for.

        György Schöpflin, Fidesz, European Parliament, Former Jean Monnet Professor of Politics, University of London

        • Leto

          Olga,

          Thanks.
          Well, I suppose you say “ex officio” that Mr. Schöplin’s article is biased. :p I think each of his claims are factual and true. Try to challenge one of them and I will defend. :)

  • justasking

    @Leto,

    Forgive me…I just got an e-mail for Olga giving me shit for not welcoming you back on poli.hu.

    So…Welcome back!

    @Olga,

    Happy now? :D

    • Leto

      Oh, thank you, both of you. I feel touched. :)

      • justasking

        @Leto,

        ” I feel touched”

        Not by me…Olga maybe! :D I’m a firm believer of keeping ones hands to ones self :O

        • spectator

          That could be useful too – as much I remember…;-)

          • justasking

            @spectator,

            “as much I remember”

            What ever gets you through the night…dear!

  • Elle

    ‘…explicitly anti-Christian (with Neopagan overtones!) regime …’

    I don’t know that you can make that stick, Leto. What you call neo-pagan was not religiously militant. It was part of the racial superiority tenet, and it sought to displace Olympus with Valhalla. But that has a strong footing in German Romanticism.

    • Leto

      That’s why I wrote “overtones”. What is sure is that the Nazi ideologists regarded Christianity as a “corrupted Jewish idea”. However, for practical reasons, they put up with it.
      This is also a major difference to Italian Fascism where the Catholic church was not treated and viewed like that. Instead the Italian fascists tried, and to a quite large extent they succeeded, to have the Church incorporated in their regime.

      • Elle

        Leto, ‘This is also a major difference to Italian Fascism …’

        Oh, for sure! In fact, there is no parallel between Italian fascism and Third Reich nationalism. For one thing, Mussolini had the benefit of the writings of the Idealists Giovanni Gentile and Benedetto Croce, both of them excellent minds. Hitler had nobody who came anywhere near their stature. In fact, there was nothing to Third Reich nationalist theory apart from the Übermensch tenet, which is one of the sillier propositions of Nietzsche, closely related to concepts such as ‘the Chosen’. Goebbels dug into this concept like the berk that he was, making it sillier still. The only good act of judgment vis-à-vis the theory of Third Reich nationalism was to keep schtum about its non-existence. It is really a gross overstatement even to speak of Third Reich nationalist theory: none emerged.

        ‘the Catholic church was not treated and viewed like that’

        I am not aware of any ‘treatment’ of the Catholic Church by the Third Reich. As far as I know, it was left to mind its own business. But you are right in that there was no effort to align it with state nationalism. The very idea that a ‘Catholic’ Church can be parochialised is oxymoronic. So I really cannot work out what you mean by ‘Instead the Italian fascists tried, and to a quite large extent they succeeded, to have the Church incorporated in their regime’. I think it can be said at most that Mussolini was not interested in alienating the Catholic Church in devout-Catholic Italy. But then, much the same was true of Hitler.

    • Viking

      Should then be interpreted as ‘elle’ agrees that the Nazis were ‘explicitly anti-Christian’, because they and their Hungarian brothers were, then they did not beleieve in the *fundamental* part of Christianity – The Baptism
      .
      Nazi and Arrow Cross did not respect that Jews had converted into Christianity, something that from a Christian point of view made them into Christians
      Killing Jews of Christian faith, was the same thing as saying that God was wrong and a Christian does not argue with God. Anti-Christians do
      .
      That the Nazi killed Jews of Mossaic faith was not fully so troublesome, given the anomosity against the Mossaic religion. It would though had been better to convert them into Christianity

  • olga

    so Elle, did you enjoy last Sunday with your friends at
    Auschwitz?

    Leto made it pretty plain what he thought of JOBBIK, MG, Hitler, Nazis and all your revolting icons, which part did you have problems understanding?

    • justasking

      @Olga,

      “so Elle, did you enjoy last Sunday with your friends at
      Auschwitz?”

      Meow!

      • Elle

        Belch, not meow. The stupid bitch has put her irritable bowel syndrome on display again.

        • justasking

          Really Elle? You just felt the need to drop the ‘b’ bomb for what…effect?

          Could your comment not have survived without it?

          Congrats on changing the tone of this thread…well done!

    • DoubleH63

      @olga “so Elle, did you enjoy last Sunday with your friends at Auschwitz?”

      I don’t know if Elle enjoyed Auschwitz last Sunday, or any time at all but I seem to remember from a while back that a visit there had a great impression on Erik. Maybe somebody there showed him the infamous and elusive German VMDs – the real gas chambers where 4 million [oops, circa 1 million since the ‘90s – the magic 6 million still stands though] chosen one perished by the hands of the ‘devilnazis’.
      [I am wondering if Dr. Mengele could be still seen standing at the ramp to greet all the survivors to pick out the ones to experiment on or remove tattoos (like scat obsessed Irene Zisblatt.]

  • olga

    Hi Leto

    Hi Leto

    I cannot “challenge” his statements but he is a FIDESZ MEP thus I immediately assumed he would be biased towards his own party. I don’t know about you, but I am yet to hear a politician in Canada or in the US who could be called objective when s/he discusses the accomplishments of his or her party.

    I would like to believe that “an honest politician” is NOT and oxymoron and I shall dedicate this weekend to talking myself into that belief.

  • justasking

    @spectator,

    “We may not agree in a lots of things, but we may do that as civilized human beings – I hope – I have no problem with this.”

    As long as you limit calling me ‘dear’ to once a day. I would actually prefer you dropping it all together; but, have aarived at the conclusion that you have some sort of attachment to that word.

    As I said…whatever gets you through the night.

  • Leto

    Olga,

    Damn, my post doesn’t show up as a reply…

    Let me help then. These are the claims Mr. Schöplin made about Fidesz. So let’s review them one by one:

    1/ “When the Fidesz-led coalition took office, the country was on its knees. The economic situation was dire, public administration falling apart, the socialist government mired in corruption.”

    This cannot be disputed at all, I think. The economic situation is still dire, of course, but there are quite a few encouraging signs at last. We could discuss those or the worrisome ones.

    2/ “The two-thirds majority won by Victor Orbán was a demand from the Hungarian electorate to clean up the mess. The government is doing that and, predictably, it has outraged those on the left who present Fidesz’s reforms as anti-democratic, authoritarian, autocratic, xenophobic (take your pick).”

    It’s evident that this huge mandate is for a major revamping the country. It’s a fact that the postcommies howling those adjectives and you could express your opinion how much truth there is to these.

    3/ “The constitutional court has retained virtually all its functions; only in one restricted area of economic policy can it not intervene.”

    This is quite easy to verify.

    4/ “The National Bank retains the same independence that it had under the socialists.”

    Detto. (Let me remark that I think the postcommies’ bank chairman, Simor, is a harmful bastard and he should be gotten rid of somehow.)

    5/ “The rule of law has been strengthened, not weakened.”

    That’s debatable and I could argue against this. Say, the case of the retroactive 98% tax on the big bonuses the fallen postcommies sprinkled to theirs. This is a case when law and justice does contradict.

    6/ “The procuracy and the investigative authority have been pursuing criminality, including by politicians and regardless of party affiliation.”

    This is something I’m not content with. There should be a lot more postcommie villains in prison by now.

    7/ “The media law, which attracted the unthinking opprobrium of the opposition and those abroad who parroted its views, has produced none of the horror-filled outcomes that were predicted.”

    No doubt about that, I think. Do you want to discuss what came true of all those horror visions? :)

    8/ “The citizenship law, the aim of which is to ensure that Hungarians from neighbouring countries are not treated as foreigners in Hungary, is likewise working well.”

    Care to dispute that?

    9/ “The new constitution is well within the bounds of best practice in Europe and has considerable popular support.”

    The major criticism the “Venice-committe” (of the European Council) had were that
    a/ “there wasn’t enought time to discuss the new Constitution” (ha-ha)
    b/ “the opposition didn’t take part in the process and the voting” (they chose to do so, so who cares?)
    c/ “the Constitution references Cardinal Acts too much” (no specifics…)

    Apart from this there has been that much whining about the reference to the Holy Crown and defining marriage as a life union of a man and a woman. I couldn’t care less when they are drooling about these.. I think both are absolutely positive things. They just express some basic moral and political values you may not agree with perhaps but you cannot call them anti-democratic or what.

    • Viking

      Leto says:
      October 21, 2011 at 9:32 pm

      There should be a lot more postcommie villains in prison by now

      Of course prosecutions and trials should happen according to political affiliation
      This becomes totally clear when one understand that the only that defines what is a “postcommie” is that it is a synonym for “anti-Fidesz”
      Other synonyms are:
      * “anti-Gvernment”
      * “anti-Democratic”
      * “anti-Hungarian”
      but these ones are just sub-values of the big overall definition, “anti-Fidesz”

  • ZZ Flop

    I have just read through all the bullshit comments leading nowhere and saying nothing in particular except to infer that the author/s consider themselves worthy of expressing an opinion on a worn out and tedious subject.
    Pestiside many moons ago housed this sort of nonsense espoused by erstwhile academics and dilettantes such as Vindaloo and cohorts.
    I demand and expect better of some people especially when I deliver my rather large boot up their backside with all the power of a jack hammer.
    I haven’t gone away as you may, by now, have recognised.
    Simply moved on to pastures new. The style is unmistakeable.Isn’t it?
    Now peel me a grape and pass the champagne…

  • DoubleH63

    @Viking “You are…just trying a fast one”

    No, Ilja it’s you who is trying to do that.
    It was not a closed event – anybody could attend; fake Hitlers, Giant Pink Dicks, Arrow Cross soldiers, anti-fascist [or is it anti-nazi?] Zsindex photographers, Catholic zsidóbérencek [hi, Pete H., greetings from a fellow Catholic and possible Jew], etc.
    But I see Ilja, that even though nobody urged Adolf to leave, you got the urge to spread some propaganda, eh?

    • Viking

      DoubleH63 says:
      October 23, 2011 at 3:09 am

      It was not a closed event

      If the event had proper permits the organisers *are* responsible for the people attending the event. In the permit the physical location (fixed place for a meeting, route for a demonstration) is defined
      This is to help the Police decide who are for and who is against the event (if needed), meaning that the Police can tell people who *obviously* are against the event, not to attend it inside the physical location assigned to the event in the permit
      To help the Police and protect the event, the official organisers (named in the permit) can request help from the Police to remove people that offend the purpose with the event
      So, that is the simple truth, but we do understand that, when you live in Illinois, you have not a clue how the real world works
      And the simple fact is that the organisers of this “Jobbik” event did *not* (politely) ask Mr Hilter to leave the area designed to this event, and they did not request the Police to help Mr Hilter to find his way

  • DoubleH63

    @Viking

    You are reaching pretty hard.
    Why would Jobbik, Police, God, the Devil… whoever would remove this person from this event? (Which was in remembrance of a teacher who was killed by a mob of Gypsies – all you ‘nazi hunters’ should worry about the fact that things like that can happen in Hungary, instead of worrying about how people look like.)
    As for the Police; they demonstrated the steps they will take if people are against a demonstration (or just happened to be in the area) at the latest march of the ‘fartúrók’.

    [Just because you have seen the Blues Brothers, no need to place me in Illinois or just because I am not joined at the hip with slimy Zuroff who was trying to get Dr. Képíró Sándor - who served his nation ‘til his passing “Híven, becsülettel, vitézül” - mistaken me for a Nazi.]

    • Viking

      DoubleH63 says:
      October 24, 2011 at 2:21 am

      You are reaching pretty hard.
      Why would Jobbik, Police, God, the Devil… whoever would remove this person from this event?

      Finally we have arrived to the core of this debate:
      * Yes, *why* should they?
      .
      Different answers apply:
      A) They (= the legal organisers of this event) were not aware of Mr Hilter’s presence, then the people around Him did not object and see it as a provocation
      .
      B) They knew about Mr Hilter’s presence, but did not care, for the same reason as in A)
      .
      C) They approved Mr Hilter’s presence

      Now you ask yourself, would Mr Hilter be welcomed in a Fidesz, MSZP or LMP event, or would He be, politely of course, be asked to leave the area?
      Do you really think that Hungarians in general would think Fidesz/MSZP/LMP (all the other political parties in the Parliament) would be wrong in asking Mr Hilter to “Move On Sir!”?
      .
      And there you have the answer on your question – it has to do with normal decency, a trait that may have avoided you, like the attendees/organisers of this “Jobbik”-event, since birth?

  • DoubleH63

    @Erik

    What’s wrong with the quote from A. H.?
    Sometimes it could be true. Or the real problem is who said it, eh? Must be.
    Just like positively (God forbid!) admiringly write about his economic policies to pull Germany out of the dumps – like one financial magazine editor found out in the hard way in Chicago. [Damn, those people in Illinois must be all Nazis, right Ilja?]
    And about the people who have a problem with the little kitten should be all, ashamed of themselves. [First I wrote something else here but I deleted it.]

  • olga

    @ Double

    What is the magic number in millions of people being exterminated in WWII that would make you happy?

    Those lying main-stream history books I was exposed to in Canada estimated the numbers to be 11 million but I am sure once your counting was over, you will set these historians straight and future students will be spared those falsehoods.

    Stalin’s victims were estimated at 22 million – are those numbers ok with you ?

  • olga

    @ Double

    What if I wished for this same person to choose a “Stalin outift” for the parade? What would happened to him?

    I don’t wish anyone physical harm but what ever happened to Mr. Stalin wannabe, I would say he asked for it.

    Even if that large gentleman with the red and white scarf toppled over him, I would close my eyes – hate to see people getting hurt

    If I rolled back the clock and I was 20-30 years of age again with long dark hair and gold hoop earrings, I would definitely stay out of those marchers way – I never claimed I was brave

    • I love Hungary

      If I were 20 again, I’d try to pick up that hot chick in the backround….. I’m beginning to understand why these people are so pissed off.

    • Cupid

      @I love Hungary – Chill! She’s way above your league.

  • Richard

    The so called “Liberal Democracy” touted by the West as a panacea for all the ills of all the nations of the world is neither liberal nor democratic, but behind the mask is like communism, simply a another form of totalitarianism. Jobbik and similar Nationalist parties are attracting increasing support from young people because they have a clear vision for the future and represent the last bastion of the values of Western Civilization. All the provocative name calling in the world will not stop the inevitable fact that history is on their side.

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