December 5th, 2011

International “radicalism index” puts Hungary fifth of 33 countries; belief in genetic roots of Roma crime widespread

Hungary was placed fifth of 33 countries on a “radicalism” index that found Turkey to be the most “radical” nation and Iceland the least.

Political Capital said sympathy with far-right ideas and politics among the over 15s rose from 10% to 21% in Hungary from 2002-09; “a practically unprecedented rise by international standards”.

The defining elements of this process included a loss of trust in democratic institutions, a marked increase in prejudice, and a slight rise in fear and pessimism.

According to a Tárki survey question on “Gypsy crime”, 79% of Jobbik supporters partly or fully agreed with the statement that “crime is in the blood of Roma people”.

The corresponding share was lowest among LMP voters, with 49%, while 60% of Fidesz voters agreed with the statement, and 61% of Socialists. Some 63% of Hungarians view the “Roma inclination to commit crime” as genetically pre-determined, Tárki found.

Around two-thirds of the respondents to the survey would not allow their children to befriend a Roma child. Jobbik voters scored highest on this question and LMP voters lowest, with 35% rejecting the idea of their offspring mixing with Roma peers.

Photo via flickr user Daskar.

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  • Freedom

    This index is biased as it is racist.

    How come, all the countries it list is European- white countries?

    Also, it focuses on political issues that can’t be made clear from any kind of so-called “index” point of view without you living in the country being bashed by the idnex. Also, what does one consider radical? Maybe, one day someone will consider liberalism radical and the index would start labeling listing countries as radical depending on the popular demand for liberalism?

    If you want to list countries as “radical” by these social standards than virtually every Asian, African, Mid-East country would be listed above the list of those 33 countries that actually were listed.

    • Pete H.

      Human geneticists consider the idea that ethnic groups have genes for criminality to be radical and without any basis in fact.

      This measure has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism, it simply a matter of a population excepting a notion that has been long discredited. A notion that creates bias towards a group.

      • John Doe

        Yea, Pete’s right…You’re an idiot….

    • American in Budapest

      That are not many countries in Europe where a party similar to Jobbik gets 20% of the vote.

      That’s the fact.

      Jobbik is a continuation of that venerable Hungarian tradition of right wing extremism. That extremism flowered after WWI and led to the rise of Hungarian fascism.

  • Viking

    Freedom says:
    December 5, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    This index is biased as it is racist.

    How come, all the countries it list is European- white countries?

    Except Hungary, do you know any other European non-white countries?

    • Freedom

      No, but I know of a whole world outside of Europe. So, I find it racist that the list in this day and age of globalism does not list all other nations – not just European ones.

      The only non-European countries it list are Israel and Turkey.

      • Viking

        Freedom says:
        December 6, 2011 at 3:57 pm

        The only non-European countries it list are Israel and Turkey

        Both of which are part of the Euro Song Contest, and Turkey will likely be part of the EU in 5-10 years

        It was otherwise an extremely political correct demand to claim that in all lists all countries must be included
        Should the organisers of this list be punished by spending time in jail, or is public flogging enough (given that public flogging is used in some other parts in the world and we do not want to be better than them)

    • Igazi Magyar

      It’s a fair question to ask how extensive racism is in “European non-white countries.” My personal experience as a Hungarian who is very close to Africans and people from most continents is that Hungarians are indeed the most racist. My African friends are so tolerant of different ethnicities and cultures.

      I would like to ask what “white” means? Here’s a book on the subject:

      http://books.wwnorton.com/books/detail.aspx?id=5396

  • justasking

    “Around two-thirds of the respondents to the survey would not allow their children to befriend a R*ma child”

    I have to say, I’m really surprised by this. We all have our issues and preconceived notions…but, I have never thought, to say to my kids ‘I don’t want you to be friends with kids from this religion or that nationality’.

    I stress not being friends with other kids if they have been mean or disrespectful to them; but, never over things you can not change.

  • vándorló

    What it demonstrates most clearly is the parlous state of education in biology and genetics.

    It also underlines the appalling legacy of the socially impotent and corrupt MSZP (and SzDSz) that allowed social cohesion to fall into this state on their guard. They were too busy with other things.

    • justasking

      @Vandor,

      “What it demonstrates most clearly is the parlous state of education in biology and genetics”

      :D funny…
      ———–

      “Some 63% of Hungarians view the “Roma inclination to commit crime” as genetically pre-determined, Tárki found”

      I’ve been thinking about this and quite frankly? It doesn’t make sense to me. I’d be curious on how the question was phrased, and the actual responses.

      Did the people surveyed come out and say ‘genetics’…or say ‘it’s in their blood’(yes, yes…I know even that is inflammatory, but give me a second here) meaning their environment and that impact, as opposed to actually meaning/believing ‘genetics/biological’?

      I was watching a documentary the other day, on African American males and the penal system….1 out of 12 will wind up incarcerated, and this is statistic is expected to increase drastically in the next few years.

      Why? Lack of male role models? Environment?

      Different people, different environments…similar situation.

  • John Doe

    “The defining elements of this process included a loss of trust in democratic institutions, a marked increase in prejudice, and a slight rise in fear and pessimism.”

    I wonder how they totally skipped over the element of uneducated idiotic moron??

    Whatever, start another holocaust, kill more people, that will solve it all!!

  • spectator

    Well, based on the illustration above, genetic improvements badly needed, doubtless…

    • John Doe

      LOL

  • I love Hungary

    Speaking of genetic predisposition, if those three guys in the picture aren’t right wing, facist, wussies….. well they missed what Darwin had in mind for them.

  • DoubleH63

    I am not sure if Erik deliberately skews a little bit in this article or just misunderstood the original Hungarian one.

    In support of the first theory: we see a huge accompanying picture of some MG guys; in support of the second one: we have Erik’s own statement – “I like shopping in a language I can barely understand.”
    Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt.
    But unlike him some of us understand Hungarian very well and can easily check the original Hungarian article.

    Erik’s version:

    “Around two-thirds of the respondents to the survey would not allow their children to befriend a Roma child. Jobbik voters scored highest on this question and LMP voters lowest, with 35% rejecting the idea of their offspring mixing with Roma peers.”

    In reality the question was if the respondents would accept that their child befriends a Gipsy/Arab/Chinese/African/’Chosen One’ child?

    In the case of Gipsy here are the results
    FIDESZ – 36%
    MSZP – 36%
    JOBBIK – 23%
    LMP – 35%

    So, the 35% is to accept not to reject Erik. That means that even the majority of LMP respondents are against seeing their child to befriend a Gipsy child.

  • Klara

    not genetically, but certainly culturally pre-determined. There is no way to explain the numbers. The same way it is impossible to explain the US numbers of crimes committed by citizens of color. Naturally, the popular notion is to cry prejudice but….

    • Benny

      agreed, its absolutely culturally predetermined…, and in many instances, nurture trumps nature.

  • Klara

    :) yeah the photo definitely suggests inbreeding.

  • Freedom

    What does that have anything to do with what I said?

    This Index list only 33 countries, which are almost all European nations. How come this racist list is not expanded to include all countries and all people – not just European ones?

    If this list included all the countries of the world, much of Africa, Mid-East, and Asia would place well above many of these countries (with exception of Turkey and Israel, all are European) as radical.

    Since, you two idiots went way off the issue I was trying to point out, I will address your idiot concerns.

    Discredited? Maybe, but what hasn’t been discredited are the facts that many more Roma committ certain crimes than Hungarians. As long as these crimes continue and Hungarians face the brunt of them, Hungarians will hold these view whether or not \geneticists\ have an opinion on this subject.

    Funny, that in America only whites seem to be racist or “radicals”, which is considered a crime worse than murder, but others who’re white and that preach racism aren’t called “racist”, but instead are called activist for their people – even if they preach the worse hate imaginable against white people. Many people talk about “racism” being a white only crime, you have professors and what would seem like very smart people actually preaching that all whites are bad, evil, racist, while all blacks who preach the same things that these so-called racist white supremacist preach are labeled civil rights heroes.

    • Pete H.

      It a study about European countries. That’s the scope of the conclusions you make. Not all studies are global. This is only an issue in your head.

      You talk nonsense about racist non-white groups in the US. Just look at the Southern Poverty Law Centers list of hate groups.

      From their website:

      “Black Separatist
      Intelligence Files » Ideology
      Black separatists typically oppose integration and racial intermarriage, and they want separate institutions — or even a separate nation — for blacks. Most forms of black separatism are strongly anti-white and anti-Semitic, and a number of religious versions assert that blacks are the Biblical “chosen people” of God.
      Louis Farrakhan
      Intelligence Files » Profiles
      Louis Farrakhan heads the Nation of Islam, a group he has led since 1977 and that is based on a somewhat bizarre and fundamentally anti-white theology. Farrakhan is an anti-Semite who routinely accuses Jews of manipulating the U.S. government and controlling the levers of world power.
      New Black Panther Party
      Intelligence Files » Groups
      The New Black Panther Party is a virulently racist and anti-Semitic organization whose leaders have encouraged violence against whites, Jews and law enforcement officers.”

      The SPLC is the leading group in the US that tracks hate crimes and hate groups.

    • justasking

      @Freedom,

      “What does that have anything to do with what I said?

      This Index list only 33 countries, which are almost all European nations”

      That’s because this site deals with Hungary and European issues…hence, the European examples?

      I’m just throwing it out there, I could be wrong.

    • Viking

      Freedom says:
      December 6, 2011 at 3:55 pm

      the facts that many more Roma committ certain crimes than Hungarians

      Care to show the official stats that prove that point?
      Including the official definition on who is R*ma?

      • justasking

        @Viking,

        “Care to show the official stats that prove that point?”

        I would say your proof would be the ratio of R*ma’s in jail compared to other people.
        ——–

        “Including the official definition on who is R*ma?

        “G*psy: a member of a people with dark skin and hair who speak Romany and who traditionally live by seasonal work and fortunetelling;…”

        That’s just one definition…maybe you have another?

        • Viking

          justasking says:
          December 6, 2011 at 9:05 pm

          I would say your proof would be the ratio of R*ma’s in jail compared to other people

          That would only prove that R*ma are sentenced more often and probably to longer time in prison, not that they are over-represented in the stats for “the facts that many more Roma committ certain crimes than Hungarians”

          And then we come to the follow-up question:
          * Who decides who is a R*ma in prison?

          Is this written on their prison-record, in their trial document, or is it just ‘a feeling’?
          Where did you get your info on
          * “the ratio of R*ma’s in jail compared to other people”?

          • Viking

            Actually if you check out the Hungarian Prison Service’s official website on bvop hu web-site, you will find the yearbook for 2010, both in Hungarian and English

            I searched it, but I could not find any Roma, only Romanian, Roman Catholic, etc

            So from where are these stats that people like to throw around?

          • justasking

            @Viking,

            “I searched it, but I could not find”

            Obviously not good enough: excerpt from the Hungarian Helsinki Committee:

            “overrepresented among Hungary’s prison population. … regarding themselves as R*mani amounted to 30 and 40 percent of the prison population in 1995 and …

            “Prison wardens estimated the percentage of R*ma in Hungarian prisons to be around 60%. A follow-up study in 2001 produced similar results.

            ——–

            “So from where are these stats that people like to throw around?”

            Simply google ‘percentage of prison population being R*ma in Europe.

          • Viking

            justasking says:
            December 6, 2011 at 9:59 pm

            Obviously not good enough: excerpt from the Hungarian Helsinki Committee

            Care to link to that source?

            The one I found is built on 549 prisoners answering a questionnaire in 2001-2 by the HHC
            179 state Roma origin, 81 of those stated Roma only, the remaining 98, Hungarian and Roma origin

            In 1995 and 1996, interviewed prisoners (not know how many) 30% respectively 40% identified themselves as Romani
            The corresponding survey among prison wardens came to the figure 60% of the prison population are Roma, but here you come into the stereotype opinion on who is a Roma, then this type of info are not recorded in Hungary

            So, Hungarian Helsinki Committee never claimed 60%, this is just a typical kuruc distortion, were it probably only said “in a report from HHC”, which just means that HHC referred to that figure as an example of stereotype views

            I will post my link in the next post

          • Viking
        • Pete H.

          Fortunetelling! Really? I did not meet one Roma that was a fortuneteller. There must be very few Roma in Hungary.

          This is one of the problems that Roma have. Too many people have a cartoon version of them in their heads.

          • justasking

            @Pete H,

            ” I did not meet one Roma that was a fortuneteller”

            Well, that’s that! Peti hasn’t experienced it, so it must not be so, obvious bullshit right?
            ———-

            “Too many people have a cartoon version of them in their heads.

            Do you often enjoy mocking peoples culture and heritage?

            You might see it as ‘cartoonish’, but, like it or not, it’s a fact.

            Besides, I guarantee you, a good fortune teller to this day is coveted.

            You must piss yourself laughing when you see he old traditional G*psy musicians, decked out in colourful embroidered vests, flowing white shirts and black pants.

  • Frank

    Does somebody know where to find the complete ranking of 33 countries?

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