May 22nd, 2012

Orbán said “outraged” by EU-mandated licensing of abortion pill in Hungary; opponents say move violates “pro-life” constitution

Prime Minister Viktor Orbán was outraged by the recent decision to license an abortion pill for commercial distribution in Hungary, Magyar Hírlap reports.

Health state secretary Miklós Szócska told Parliament yesterday that the National Pharmaceutical Institute registered the pill on May 17, in line with a code that is binding on EU member states.

He added that the registration does not mean that the pill will be allowed for use. He told HírTV Monday evening that the pill will not be released commercially in Hungary.

The Alfa Federation will protest against the abortion pill outside the health state secretariat on Arany János utca in Budapest’s Fifth District at 3 p.m. Wednesday.

Professor of law Gábor Jobbágyi, who will address the gathering, told Magyar Hírlap that the pill violates the Basic Law, which protects the fetus from conception.

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  • Democrat

    “the pill violates the Basic Law, which protects the fetus from conception.”….thus confirming that abortion is now illegal in Hungary.

    • Leto

      No, it means abortion will stay a rather unpleasant mechanical operation in Hungary instead of simply taking a pill.

      • Aloof

        If the constitution says that life is protected from conception then how is abortion not effectively illegal in Fidesz Land? So if women can’t get the pill, which they will get by other means anyway, then what’s the point? The back alley doctor or coat hanger alternative are more than enough reasons alone to do so. Abortion in Hungary isn’t going away. There have been 1,778 million abortions in Hungary between 1990 and 2010 alone.

        • Leto

          Yes, abortion should be made much less easier to do indeed.
          There are women who use it instead of contraception.

          • spectator

            Hate to contradict, but life is unjust.

            If you intend to fulfill an ideological goal, restriction the worst way to go – it creates resistance instead of compliance, particularly in Hungary as you very well know.

            The right way should be to educate people – from childhood onward – how to use a proper birth-control if they ever wish to, furthermore create adequate circumstances for raising children, instead this utterly stupid proposition regarding the relation between the number of children and the size of pension.

            Banning the pill is nothing but hypocrisy, an act of ignorance.

          • Leto

            Restriction and education. And most importantly a change of public opinion and atmosphere by various means. Yeah, a “conservative social revolution”. 🙂

          • spectator

            It must be only me, but I honestly believe that if that “conservative social revolution” really happens, people has the proper means to live, right grooming and education, you don’t need restrictions at all.

            Starting from the wrong side – restrictions – is a huge mistake.

          • Leto

            Oh, yeah.. That kind of thinking is pretty much like when some libertarian maniac would suggest that no psychotic drug should be restricted at all, people should have complete freedom what substance they mess up their life with.

          • Logical

            Leto wrote:

            “There are women who use it instead of contraception.”

            It takes two to conceive. Thus there are women AND men who together use abortion instead of contraception.

          • Leto

            No doubt. Does that change anything?

  • Democrat

    @Leto, there are several ways to perform an abortion. If one breaches the basic law then they all do. It is a stupid law which has been proven elsewhere to have very dangerous ramifications. By all means regulate and educate but an outright ban is self defeating. Just imagine for a moment that you had a 16 year old daughter who was raped. A pill tomorrow or a “rather unpleasant mechanical operation” in a month or two. You choose.

    • Leto

      Rape victims are a tiny, tiny, tiny proportion of those women who have abortion.

  • Aloof

    Just can’t ever accept the facts eh? You just had to make a pro Fidesz/OV rationalization instead of facing the reality. Not everyone in Hungary is a Christian and very few actually practice it.

    Democrat is right. Outright banning of it is self defeating and unrealistic. Regulate and educate is the right answer. Unless you’re a woman who in the hell are you to decide one way or the other anyway? Same goes for OV.

    • Leto

      This has little to do with being a Christian. I myself am an atheist.

      • Aloof

        Sorry pal. The divert, deny, rationalize crap doesn’t pass muster on this one. Democrat and I make sense, you just want to be contrary. OV’s policy regarding abortion is dead wrong and stupid and people will find ways to ignore it. Abortion will not go away in Hungary, no law will ever change that fact.

        • Leto

          No doubt it “won’t go away”. But it has to be reduced significantly.

      • Like everyone else in Fidesz/KDNP 😀

        • Leto

          I’m not *in* Fidesz/KDNP.

    • justasking,

      @Aloof,

      ‘Unless you’re a woman who in the hell are you to decide one way or the other anyway?’

      I don’t agree with your statement here. Are you suggesting, that a man should have no say in the matter, one way or the other where HIS child is concerned?

      What if the man expressed and signed a ‘contract’, in where the mother were to carry the baby to term, deliver…the father would adopt, have sole custody, and assume all the financial responsibility associated with raising a child?

      Although I agree with a woman’s right to choose, I also believe that a man should have some say, as opposed to now, which is essentially, no say.

      Pending on the scenario that is.
      ———-

      I saw this on another thread:

      Cicero says:
      May 23, 2012 at 6:04 am
      “Europe in 2012″ needs more kids – otherwise it’s going to go out of existence as the Europe that we know in another generation or two…

      Reply
      Aloof says:
      May 23, 2012 at 9:29 am
      So how many kids do you have?

      That, to me, was a cheap shot. What if this poster was unable to have children? Should they be belittled and faulted, over something they have no control of?

      • Aloof

        @ Just Asking
        “Are you suggesting, that a man should have no say in the matter” Oh I’m sure some men had a say in the matter alright but women had the final say especially since 1.8 million Hungarain women had reported abortions between 1990 and 2010.

        “That, to me, was a cheap shot.” Well of course you would take it that way because it was me that said it. I was just asking the guy if he had any kids because if you follow what Cicero has been puking his reasons for Europe having more kids means as close to ethnically pure magyar types. He hates foreigners and multicultural societies. Europe is having kids just not the flavor he likes, so I was asking what he’s doing for the cause.

        • justasking,

          @Aloof,

          ‘Well of course you would take it that way because it was me that said it’

          I would have posted the same response, if it would have been from Olga, Viking, George etc.

          I doubt they ever would, for they would never be so tacky as yourself.

  • Focus on the bigger picture

    Interestingly the more (pro) choice you give the more your CORE demographic begins to diminish in numbers. Just look at the modern western world and their stats. Which races are growing exponetially and which are in minus?
    Don’t misunderstand, I agree, the intelligent rationale IS to educate and regulate. The issue is efficacy and sustainability of both. Keep in mind, when your core numbers start dwindling in scary and may I say predictable numbers, time forces one to look at self-preservation. Or, should Hungary and what will be left of the EU, just wait until 2050 and be content being run by Chinese and Muslim controls? Or, as some EU leaders have already stated, it’s already too late?
    We are all familiar with the Chinese contraception > Central Committee allows one child per household, except if it’s a girl or if you live outside one of the major population hubs.
    Then of the Muslim method, propagate and multiply.
    I remember Quadaffi when asked about contraception and war. He laughed and said the Christian is dumb for he brings war unto himself and is self-destructive, I (the Muslim) can do the same, but with two to four wives and ten to twenty children, I stay far ahead of the game and far longer. ( He was crazy, but not dumb.)

    Desparate times (of survival), as in wars, generally take desparate measures, albeit not always in the most inviting forms.

    Abortion is one of the most sensitive/controvesial topics, especially when spiralled in political context and when a country/region is on their knees and their social structure seemingly in demise.

    Nevertheless, has ever, any of us spoken to a woman who wanted an abortion? Whether by the Fench pill or by procedure?

  • Violating the Basic Law

    Leto, I can’t imagine you know anything about contraception. The women you meet don’t need any. Just listening to your opinions will be enough to turn them completely off going anywhere near you.

    • Leto

      Probably you image I don’t know about even bees and flowers.

  • olga

    How nice to see all you men weigh-in on a woman’s right for abortion but I suggest less preoccupation with our reproductive rights and more concentration on “deadbeat Dads” whose kids go to bed hungry as a result of their defaulting on court ordered support payments.

    Leto, any woman who uses abortion as contraception is not fit to be a Mother so terminating a 24 hr pregnancy by taking a pill is preferable a medical procedure and if there is “life’ after conception I am yet to hear of a funeral when a woman has a miscarriage in her early stages of pregnancy.

    • Aloof

      First thing I would do is have court ordered vasectomies so they couldn’t procreate any more kids like that 33 year old guy in Tennessee who has fathered 30 kids with 11 different women and has a minimum wage job. Hard to see how the women here bear no fault regarding this too.

      What makes these women fit to be a mother? Young women from families that are poor, rural, from a disadvantage minority, or headed by a single parent are more likely to be teen mothers than are their counterparts from more priviledged backgrounds. Teen pregnancy is less about young women and their sex lives than it is about restricted horizons and the boundaries of hope. Throw in drugs, Facebook and media influences these days to compund it.

  • ugio

    Once again the EU trying to destroy europe

  • olga

    @ Aloof

    re: \First thing I would do is have court ordered vasectomies \ – I assume your clever Hungarian wife thought of that one – I totally agree :))

    If you spent 5 years of your working life with welfare Moms like I did, you could figure out which one is fit and which one is not – the majority is and many could gett off welfare if deadbeat Dads stepped up to the plate.
    Of course the Pro-Life people are much more concered with \pre-born Children\ (stupid phrase) than those \post-born\ ones.

    Teenage pregnancy reasons are very complex but the saddest reason is a need to be loved by the baby

    • Aloof

      OK then what does OV want to create, a welfare state? There aren’t any jobs for the people that are living now and unemployment for 18-25 year olds whether educated or not is over 50%. How does suicide work into the pension plan?

  • spectator

    Thanks for the insight Olga!

  • DoubleH63

    @Democrat

    ”abortion is now illegal in Hungary”

    Libajani Junior you are an idiot.
    Abortion has been legal in Hungary since the time of your race relation (Rosenfeld Mátyás).

    [Hopefully the time will come when it will be illegal again.]

  • DoubleH63

    @olga

    “Of course the Pro-Life people are much more concered with \pre-born Children\ (stupid phrase) than those \post-born\ ones.”

    Did you get that “fact” from your crystal ball, fortuneteller Gypsy?

  • olga

    @ Double

    The answer to your question is YES

    Now I do have the perfect solution for pro-Lifers like you, although it’s not my idea and I copied the following paragraphs and excellent suggestions from a very long article from the HubPages

    \If abortion is immoral, and it is illegal because it is immoral (since we have decided all immoral things should also be illegal), we must place all unwanted children with families that want children, respect life, and who have gone on record as being in favor of banning abortion. These people are obviously moral – they tell us so at every opportunity. These people obviously love children, even to the point of wanting to force women and girls to bring unwanted children into the world. The right place for these children to be, ethically, is with the people who love and want unwanted children. So, it would be immoral to put the unwanted children anywhere else. \

    In short: By law, if abortion is made illegal, people and families who supported making it illegal should be forced, by law, to adopt all unwanted children for as long as there are unwanted children.

    A nice, simple solution. Legally force women to have children they don’t want on moral grounds. Then legally force those who supported making abortion illegal to adopt all the unwanted children… on moral grounds.\

    So how many of these unwanted children are you prepared to adopt and give them all the love and support that every child deserves and is entitled to?

    What a blessing to know that race will never be an issue as that crystal ball assured me that you will open your home and your heart to any of God’s unwanted little children.

  • Cicero

    Get the hell out of the EU, NOW! It’s not worth it.

  • C’est Moi

    The overall consequence of throwing away life with the ease of a pill is infinitely greater than any of the knuckle-draggers here can fathom. Ultimately the result is that the least apt to parent will still produce more of their spawn without fail and those who might have been good parents, even if the timing was wrong, will easily choose this route.

  • Paul

    And once again…soooo obvious that Hungary does not belong to the EU.
    I love Hungary…the country desereves a much better government.

    • Leto

      “obvious that Hungary does not belong to the EU”

      Hm, maybe you are right.

      “the country desereves a much better government”

      That’s absolutely none of your business. You don’t live here and you didn’t elect this government and you won’t elect another one either.
      For the opinions of those who matter in this regard, please study the poll tracker on this site.

      • Bowen

        If Leto checked the news, he’d also acknowledge that more and more Hungarians are completely fed up with politics in this country. Not a great endorsement for what Fidesz/KNDP have been doing the last 2 years.

        Unfortunately, people like Leto are politically naive. They pick a side, like it’s a football team, and support them no matter what they do. The point is, Hungary deserves decent, competent politicians. Doesn’t matter what ‘side’ they’re on as long as they’re not extremist lunatics. Sadly, decency and competence is lacking. And certainly this is sorely evident in the current government.

        • C’est Moi

          Bowen, politics is not really like supporting a football team. Often you would vote for a party who’s core beliefs are aligned with your own while never voting for the opposition who’s view is contrary. The choice would be to vote or abstain. Of course if you have no core beliefs to identify with then you are just an independent.

  • olga

    re: \Professor of law Gábor Jobbágyi, who will address the gathering, told Magyar Hírlap that the pill violates the Basic Law, which protects the fetus from conception.\

    Someone should volunteer ((preferably a male expert on women’s reproductive rights) to tell the good Professor that it takes approximately 8 weeks for and embryo to turn into a fetus and thus the morning after pill simply prevents the embryo (if there is one to begin with) to attach to the uterus.

    I think proper outrage is much more effective when using the right terms and technically there is no fetus from the moment of conception. A Professor of Law should know that since \technicality is a biggie\ in the law profession

  • justasking,

    I have a dream…where equal care, attention, passion and protection, were offered to those children who are born; as there is towards the unborn child.

    The how and the whys of how the pregnancy came about, pales in comparison to the quality of life that will be offered to that child.

    I would rather have a fetus aborted, if it would save him/her, from a life of neglect, indifference and a possibility of abuse.

  • Andy

    HAHA! Hungary is turning into America!

  • DoubleH63

    @olga

    “expert on women’s reproductive rights”

    Are you caught up in your Canadian mindset again, little feminist?
    Now that you know better than a Law professor, maybe you should re-read your quote. The key word is conception, not fetus. It/he/she is protected from that point on according to the Basic Law. [Which btw puts me into the category of the confused. If it/he/she is protected from conception – how come abortion is still legal in Hungary?]

  • wolfi

    Even the Wall St Journal is wondering about Hungary’s or rather Fidesz’ and Jobbik’s ideas on abortion:

    -http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2012/05/24/hungary-reopens-abortion-controversy-with-pill-debate/

    “Alfa, an organization that among its supporters has several lawmakers from extreme-right opposition party Jobbik, is a vocal opponent of the abortion pill. The group held a demonstration Wednesday in Budapest, with the participation of Deputy Prime Minister Zsolt Semjen, a KDNP member, a sign of the high level of the debate.”

    Now let leto and Cicero and the other loonies explain that the WSJ is of course an agent of …

    • Cicero

      Yes, asshole – WSJ is the mouthpiece of Wall Street and neoconservatives in the U.S. Only an idiot like you would consider the WSJ to be an objective and respectable publication that should be taken seriously. But then, your mental horizon is so limited that you probably know very little about the state of the media in the U.S., and you probably think that every piece of crap printed in the WSJ or any other U.S. “mainstream media” organization should be taken as sacred writ.

      • justasking,

        @Cicero,

        I would ease up a bit on him if I were you. He’s suffering from Senile Dementia, ans has regressed to the age of 12; a natural progression in such a disease.

        Unfortunately, the speed in which this regression occurred, was directly linked to the copious amounts of Hortobágyi palacsinta he consumes.

        Pity him…not attack him.

  • spectator

    Oh dear..!

    – The so called Basic Law obviously made by dilettantes, otherwise shouldn’t be so many contradictory statements.

    (Think about the rulers, who even screw up their own Basic Law, how competent are they..!}

    Regarding the subject:

    You like it or don’t, the ladies are right, by any kind of civilized norms. According to me, definitely!

    The kid of rules and regulations the Orbanist regime trying to enforce upon the Hungarians belong to the long forgotten middle ages, not in any civilized 21th century European country.

    The answer rather simple by all means: provide adequate living standards to the population, and they start to multiply like rabbits, because their offspring has a chance to grow up and live as a human being!

    Forcing these primitive medieval values just proves, that the government of Hungary totally lost their sense of reality.

    • Leto

      Writing posts like this just proves, by any kind of civilized norms, that you’ve lost your mind (if you had one). You remind me of spectacled bolshevik political commissar.

      • Leto

        of a spectacled bolshevik political commissar who walked behind the red killers.

        • spectator

          Leto, darling, take your pills.
          It’s long overdue, you know, that’s why you start talking rubbish again, poor thing…

  • Cicero

    Why is it a \medieval value\ to oppose the commercial licensing of an abortion pill? You may support or oppose abortion itself, but why smear being against the licensing of an abortion pill as \medieval values\? Who defines \medieval values\ – you? What about all the people and politicians opposing abortion (NOT commercial licensing of an abortion PILL, but abortion ITSELF) in the U.S., then? Are you prepared to call them \medieval\ also – to say that on a U.S. website, for example?

    \The answer rather simple by all means: provide adequate living standards to the population\

    \Adequate living standards\ cannot be provided to a population by governmental fiat in the blink of an eye. Real economic progress, resulting in a permanent elevation of living standards, takes a lot of time and effort – usually on the order of decades, at least. IN THE MEANTIME, however, something needs to be done about the worsening demographic situation in Hungary – and making abortion easier and easier will NOT help that!

    There – I made it so SIMPLE that even you should be able to understand…

    • spectator

      When I said medieval, I was in my generous mood.
      More accurate would have been Neanderthal.

      Trying to force people to the – alleged – right way, while there is no choice really, will never work.
      Enforcing moral values through restrictions is the way of the totally ignorant narrow-minded zealots – it’s by definition counterproductive, it’s always fail. It produces only liars, cheaters and the kind, because the people haven’t changed, only the rules.

      If you don’t see this, it’s a pity, really.

      Actually you have been misinformed: the pill wouldn’t make “abortion” easier – only less painful/problematic.
      The process of granting permit for abortion hasn’t changed – the pill only another tool.

      I don’t believe that any normal person would use abortion as a contraceptive measure by their free will.

      As I mentioned earlier proper education mandatory, and yes, adequate living standards right next.

      Of course, I know, that it takes time, but even longer, if nobody ever start it.

      Forcing people into hopeless situations in order to help on the demographic status of Hungary would be the way?
      How stupid and inhuman way is this?

      What about the obligatory artificial insemination of every female between the age of 20-40 for the greater glory of the nation?
      Sounds idiotic, isn’t it?

      At the moment, that is.

      • Leto

        I could have been in a generous mood, too, when I compared you to that spectacled bolshevik political commissar. You may actually prefer to pull the trigger yourself.

        • spectator

          “You may actually prefer to pull the trigger yourself.”
          -???
          What trigger? On the inseminator?

          You certainly need some vacation, Leto…

          Otherwise, just think about it: there are already thousands of kids literally starving on daily basis in Hungary, and instead of taking some effort to solve this shameful and inhuman situation, some inadequate morons it the government decide, that its not enough, even more kids needed…!

          Maybe to fill those vanity-stadiums with?
          Free lunch, if you watch Orban JR playing, dessert if you cheer too..?

  • olga

    @ Double

    Yes, I am caught up in that Canadian mindset – go figure.

    If a pregnancy is terminated at the embryo stage than it cannot be protected from conception to the fetus stage because it never made it to that stage. Those of us who are not really comfortable with 2nd trimester abortions (doesn’t mean I want to dictate what other women ought to do) it makes a huge difference what stage a pregnancy is terminated and the difference between an embryo and a fetus.

    Knowing your deep commitment to the well being of embryos and fetuses, I couldn’t help but wonder if some embryos and fetuses in Hungary were more worthy than others if you know what I mean

    You commented why abortions were still legal in Hungary so I shall try to guess; Orban is expected to make Pro-Life statements because of his political platform and show proper outrage but if abortions are still easily available and there are no promised legislative changes then I would say he is a typical politician.

    Our Conservative PM is also on the record saying he opposes abortion but he promised he will not change the status quo se and since 1988 we don’t have a law concerning abortions.

    Unless you feel I am being intrusive and asking too many personal questions, do let me know how many unwanted children you have adopted or plan to adopt as per the Hub Page suggestion.

  • olga

    @ Double

    re:”Professor of law Gábor Jobbágyi, who will address the gathering, told Magyar Hírlap that the pill violates the Basic Law, which protects the fetus from conception.”

    Scratch part of my response because it makes no sense :(“If a pregnancy is terminated at the embryo stage than it cannot be protected from conception to the fetus stage because it never made it to that stage. “

  • Viking

    We all know the real reason behind Fidesz objection to this Pill:
    * With this Pill it will be less of Fidesz in the future

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