June 19th, 2012

Does Hungary have a new hero?

Excerpt Via economist.com 

Horthy’s defenders argue that he brought peace, stability and steady economic growth after the trauma of the Treaty of Trianon, when Hungary lost two-thirds of its lands, and the Communist dictatorship of 1919. Caught between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, he did his best in an impossible balancing act to protect Hungarian national interests.

Hungary remained a democracy for most of his rule and a safe haven for its Jewish community. Horthy repeatedly refused Nazi demands to deport Hungary’s Jews, which was which was one of the reasons why Nazi Germany invaded in March 1944. Horthy mobilised Hungary’s armed forces to protect the Jews of Budapest, many of whom survived the war. His emissaries were in covert contact with the Allies and he wanted to change sides. Hungary was also a haven for Polish, Slovak and even Jewish refugees,

Not enough, say Horthy’s critics. Horthy declared war on the Allies without being asked by Hitler in 1941 and launched a disastrous campaign on the eastern front that saw 200,000 soldiers killed or captured. By passing four anti-Jewish laws he laid the ground for the Holocaust in Hungary. (The last law in 1941 outlawed sexual intercourse between Jews and non-Jews.) Tens of thousands of Jewish men died in forced labour subjugated by the Hungarian army, Many were killed by their own officers or forced to march through minefields to clear them. Horthy deported 20,000 Jewish refugees who were then shot by the Nazis.

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  • Leopold

    Horthy is a mass murderer. Any country that embraces this kind of hero should be banned from the EU. If the Fidesz government does not condemn the Horthy cult, more civilized countries should take the lead and call for an economic boycott against this neo-fascist country.

    • Leto. مؤدّب

      Actually the truth is that you’re a shameless liar.

      • Benny the greek

        And you’re a filthy n&zi whore.

      • Leopold

        So nobody died it in the Kamianets-Podilskyi Massacre? The Hungarians who followed up Horthy’s orders, emprisoned and loaded Jℯws into freight cars and took them to Kőrösmező to be killed by the Nazis have never existed? Are you even aware that Holocaust denial is a crime in most civilized countries?!

        • Leto. مؤدّب

          About 20000 people died in Kamianets-Podilskyi massacre, mostly foreign nationals who were deported from Hungary, because of Nazi pressure.
          So what? Should have Hungary risked being occupied already in 1941?
          Nope. Horthy made the right decision at that time.

          • Leopold

            You are obviously not just a complete idiot, but also an opportunist coward who would rat his family and friends for a nazi honor badge and 500 huf to buy some Palinka.

          • Leopold

            rat out

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            You’re obviously a retarded idiot whose mind is blackened by racial hatred.

          • Arthur Dent

            “You’re obviously a retarded idiot whose mind is blackened by racial hatred.”

            Well, now that’s the pot calling the kettle black.

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            Nope, it isn’t. I’m not “philo-Semitic” and I’m not “anti-Semitic” either.

          • Big Fish

            Leto, you are correct in your historical assessment.

          • Paul

            @ Leto

            Lots of support for you from the lunatic fringe. I do not think you can be happy with this. Maybe I am wrong though. I can tell you that a FIDESZ JOBBIK coalition will of course not be tolerated within the EU. Democracy Yes…..Neo Nazis not. By 99 percent. Type Elie Wiesel Hungary and you will see a storm of publications. Hungary gets very, very isolated.

          • Steve

            Fidesz is the wannabe-Jobbik. Just like Leto is an ersatz Magyar. Pathetic people, hopeless country!

          • Big Fish

            Paul – Elie Wiesel is not reliable source. Google his name plus word FRAUD.

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            @Paul:

            I don’t bother who supports and who opposes me in particular questions. My opinion and assessments are not determined by that.

  • Daniel

    90% of Hungarians have absolutely no problem with Horthy, and definitely do not consider him a war criminal, or a mass murderer. Whatever genocides that occured on Hungarian soil to Hungarian citizens directly resulted from WW2 and Hitler. No court could prove Horthy was a mastermind behind any of them, and he died a free man -righly so.

    Now, the Left knows this. But they pretend. They are determined to discredit the current government to the point that they are willing to distort Hungarian history, and SMEAR our name around the world.
    I believe the Left is commiting intellectual treachery against its own citizens. Whatever your political affiliations, you must understand this is absolutely vile.

    I’m not even sure the Left even cares about re-election anymore. I believe this is something deeper than that.

  • Neighbour

    When Horthys army took over the South Slovakia in November 1938, 25 0000 Slovaks and Czechs, public servents, were forced out their houses just with small bags. Complete families with small children had to walk to the North in freeze and snow. Some people who did not want to leave were shot down. Anyway, more than hundred thousand Slovaks stayed in their houses in the South and they were discriminated by Magyars for 7 years till the end of the war. All the Slovak schools were closed and changed to Magyar schools. Slovak children were beaten by their new magyar teachers when talking Slovak. Slovaks were forced to change their names to magyar names. Slovaks who were inconvenient for magyar authorities were sent to the Russian front with a note “his return is not suitable”. Such Slovaks were sent to the first line where they were killed. During those 7 years magyars killed tens of civilians just for singing in Slovak. Popular magyar saying to Slovaks was ” Magyar bread devours (eating like animals), magyar language speaks!”. Some witnesses of that times are still alive.

    • Leto. مؤدّب

      Cut the crap, hülye tótocska.

      “In the spring and summer of 1945, the Czech government in exile approved a series of decrees that stripped Hungarians of property and all civil rights.[18] In 1946 in Czechoslovakia, the process of “Reslovakization” was implemented with the objective of eliminating the Magyar nationality.[19] It basically required the acceptance of Slovak nationality.[19] Ethnic Hungarians were pressured to have their nationality officially changed to Slovak, otherwise they were dropped from the pension, social and healthcare system.[20] Since Hungarians in Slovakia were temporarily deprived of many rights at that time (see Beneš decrees), as many as some 400,000 (sources differ) Hungarians applied for, and 344,609 Hungarians received, a re-Slovakization certificate and thereby Czechoslovak citizenship.

      After Eduard Beneš was out of office, the next Czechoslovak government issued decree No. 76/1948 on April 13, 1948, allowing those Hungarians still living in Czechoslovakia, to reinstate Czechoslovak citizenship.[19] A year later, Hungarians were allowed to send their children to Hungarian-language schools, which reopened for the first time since 1945.[19] Most re-Slovakized Hungarians gradually readopted their Hungarian nationality. As a result, the re-Slovakization commission ceased operations in December 1948.

      Despite promises to settle the issue of the Hungarians in Slovakia, in 1948 Czech and Slovak ruling circles still maintained the hope that they could deport the Hungarians from Slovakia.[21] According to a 1948 poll conducted among the Slovak population, 55% were for resettlement (deportation) of the Hungarians, 24% said “don’t know”, and 21% were against.[22] Under slogans related to the struggle with “class enemies”, the process of dispersing dense Hungarian settlements continued in 1948 and 1949.[22] By October 1949, the government prepared to deport 600 Hungarian families.[22] Those Hungarians remaining in Slovakia were subjected to heavy pressure to assimilate,[22] including the forced enrollment of Hungarian children in Slovak schools.”

      -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians_in_Slovakia#The_aftermath_of_World_War_II

      • Arthur Dent

        Hardly a surprise, is it, considering what the Hungarians did to the Slovaks in the preceding 7 years. Reap what you sow. An eye for an eye. Plus ca change. And all that.

        • Leto. مؤدّب

          Tell me (with credible links, of course) what “the Hungarians did to the Slovaks in the preceding 7 years”

          • Neighbour

            I described you what Magyars did to Slovaks during those 7 years. Of course, I did not mentione all the details because it would be a very very long list of magyar crimes on Slovaks. So stop complaining what happend to Magyars in the years 1945 – 1948 and start feeling sorry for what magyars did in the years 1938 – 1945 and even before.
            Arthur Dent it named exactly: REAP WHAT YOU SOW.

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            @hülye tótocska:

            “I described you what Magyars did to Slovaks during those 7 years”

            Yeah, you lied through your teeth.

  • Viking

    Leto. مؤدّب says:
    June 19, 2012 at 2:46 pm

    I’m not “philo-Semitic” and I’m not “anti-Semitic” either
    —

    No, zou just regard J*wish Hungarians, your neighbours, as less valuable and hence it is OK to give them out to be killed
    And you are proud of it

  • Billy

    Daniel, Leto, all Hungarian patriots,

    Let the left explain the forced expulsion of about 600,000-800,000 Hungarian citizens/soldiers by the Soviet communists from 1944-1952. These people were sent to Russian gulags to be worked to death. Many died on route on the trains to the work camps. This action by the Soviet communists was a crime against humanity and a war crime. Not to mention the concentration camps set up by the Rakosi regime in the early 1950s. Around 100,000 were sent to these camps. The left has nothing to be proud about. Their “heroes” were brutal butchers that were monsters…

    • Curious George

      I’m not from the left, but I’ll try to explain it to you. If you attack a country, kill their citizens and then subsequently lose the war, you get fucked! Never, ever forget this lesson. Вы понимаете?

      • Viktor Orban’s other ball

        Indeed. Billy, do you really think that today’s Hungarian “left” in any way supports what happened back then? Are you saying Mszp supports a Stalinist-style regime? Or what are you saying exactly except for blabbing like an idiot?

      • Big Fish

        “lose the war, you get fucked” I suppose Poles (as well as many other Central/Eastern European nationals)are the exception. And to think that war was sparked by “Allied” interest to free Poland from Nazi Germany. Poles got their freedom back…..50yrs later.

        • Curious George

          @Small fry – Seems like billy isn’t the only one slow on the uptake. Never mind, I’ll repeat it for you again.
          If you attack a country, kill their citizens and then subsequently lose the war, you get fucked!

          • Big Fish

            Polish “side” won war and they still got ‘fk’d.’ They and many other nationals I suppose are the big exception Billy’s Law.

          • Curious George

            @Small fry – Maybe it’s the heat. Notice I stated 3 conditions, followed by an eventuality. I’m assuming you can count higher than 1.

          • Californicus

            And what happens if you attack a country, kill their citizens, and win the war?

          • Curious George

            You get bragging rights to a 2 trillion dollar war debt.

        • Curious George

          Scratch “again”.

      • Ma Jar

        Never forget one simple fact – you enter a war to win not to lose!

  • Big Fish

    Maybe The Economist would rather Hungarians celebrate heroes like Bela Kun or Matyas Rakosi.

    Sadly, over the past several years the Economist (and sister publication, FT) have come under control of Jews. Use to get clear, honest, common sense coverage and commentary in both. Not any more. Articles, interviews, book reviews, etc. are filled with holocaust and jewish/israel (many obviously planted) interest stories along with the usual one-sided opinions or dubious facts. The above is not an exception. I personally gave up my FT subscription and now looks like will do same with the Economist.

  • Big Fish

    Maybe The Economist would rather Hungarians celebrate heroes like Bela Kun or Matyas Rakosi.

    Sadly, over the past several years the Economist (and sister publication, FT) have come under control of Jws. Use to get clear, honest, common sense coverage and commentary in both. Not any more. Articles, interviews, book reviews, etc. are filled with holocaust and jwish/isrl (many obviously planted) interest stories along with the usual one-sided opinions or dubious facts. The above is not an exception. I personally gave up my FT subscription and now looks like will do same with the Economist.

    • spectator

      “Maybe The Economist would rather Hungarians celebrate heroes like Bela Kun or Matyas Rakosi.”

      - Nope!
      - Our one and only Hungarian Hero is…(drumroll…!!!)
      - György Matolcsi, who single handed created the blooming Paradise in Hungary, what you live in!

      Hail to the Greatest Hero of all times!

      • Andras

        Matolcsi is a great hero of course, nobody here has any doubts about that, but he’s not the only one. Have you seen how Viktor Kassai has single handed sent Ukraine home tonight?! (well, literally speaking they were already home, but he f#cked these f#ckers big time, showing Europe who’s the real bo$$ here.

        • Viking

          Another “Top Hungarian Performance” in today’s Europe…

    • Daniel

      That’s rite biggie.
      The economist is bullshit propaganda, spewed by neo-cons and other J*ws that have no relevance to anything, ever.
      Even Americans are getting sick and tired of these J*ws trying to condition everyone on how to, and what to think.
      For example, god forbid you give your respects to Horthy, but of course if you want to dehumanize Muslims amd refer to them as subhuman apes, then the entire Zsid community has got your back.
      I mean the audacity of these J*ws is absolutely staggering sometimes.

      • spectator

        - And you replied to whom regarding what exactly?
        You’ve lost me here, you know…

  • Billy

    I have every right to “Blab” as my family members were imprisoned, tortured and executed by the communist regime in Hungary. Nice to see that those that “disagree” with me have to resort to profanities. I guess it really hurts you that I said that your communist heroes were nothing more than monsters and butchers, which they were! Good day…

    • Cnut

      Please provide an example of someone supporting a “left-wing” monster and butcher on this site.

      • justasking

        @Cnut,

        Are you kidding me?

        Anybody who leans to the right on this site, is considered a fascist. So, why can’t anybody who leans to the left, be considered a Stalinist left-wing monster butcher sympathizer?

        ***We won’t even talk about those posters (me included) who happen to be right leaning AND proud to be Hungarian…we’ll leave that for another day.***

        PS: Did you come up with any-other ideas for a handle on this site? Yet…please..?

        • Cnut

          Cnut was king of England, Denmark and Norway around the time Géza was… nagyfejedelem – grand chieftain (??).

          Like Cnut I also don’t think I can stop the waves, but I’ll try anyway.

        • Cnut

          Not anyone who leans to the right, people who lean towards Jobbik.

          And people who lean to the left or towards sanity are all viewed as “post-commie bastards”.

          I have not seen a single post which could have been viewed as supporting anything Stalinist, or even anything Soviet. Maybe there were before my time.

          But I have read a lot of posts in support of Horthy, who is accused (rightly or wrongly) of being a least tacitly and indirectly responsible for a great deal of deaths, for signing the first anti-Jewish laws in the twentieth century (before Hitler had even been heard of) for unnecessarily declaring war on the USSR, and whose mistakes were responsible for 45 years of communist dictatorship.

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            @rotten postcommie bastard:

            “The Hungarian Numerus Clausus was introduced in 1920. Though the text did not use the term “J*w”, it was nearly the only group overrepresented in higher education. The policy is often seen as the first Anti-J**ish Act of twentieth century Europe.

            [b]Its aim was to restrict the number of J*ws to 6%, which was their proportion in Hungary at that time[/b]; the rate of Jewish students was approximately 15% in the 1910s”

            “Numerus clausus in the United States

            Although never officially legislated, [b]between 1918 and the 1950s[/b] a number of private universities and medical schools introduced numerus clausus policies limiting admissions of students based on their religion or race to certain percentages within the college population. One of the groups affected by these policies was J*wish applicants, whose admission to some New England and New York City-area liberal arts universities fell significantly between the late 1910s and the mid-1930s.”

            -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerus_clausus

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            So once again: the US applied similar measures between between 1918 and the 1950s.

          • justasking

            @Cnut,

            ‘Not anyone who leans to the right, people who lean towards Jobbik’

            Around here, that is considered on and the same.
            ——–

            ‘And people who lean to the left or towards sanity’

            So, in your opinion, anybody who does NOT lean to the left is insane?
            ———–

            ‘I have not seen a single post which could have been viewed as supporting anything Stalinist’

            Well, since you just said that anyone who leans to the left, leans towards sanity…can one really consider you objective?
            ——-

            ‘for unnecessarily declaring war on the USSR, and whose mistakes were responsible for 45 years of communist dictatorship’

            Good God!

            First off, he did NOT declare war on Russia, Hungary was sucked into that situation, compliments of Germany; secondly, were you being serious, when you said, Horthy was responsible for the Soviet occupation of Hungary?

            Was he also responsible, for the Soviet occupation, of all the other Eastern block countries as well? I know…why not throw on him being responsible for world hunger and cancer as well?!?

            I mean, why not? Like they say…’in for a penny, in for a pound’.

          • Cnut

            I’m not necessarily anti-Horthy (I feel sorry for the poor, weak, old man put in that position), but I’m just trying to illustrate that he is very controversial, and his decisions resulted in a lot of hardship for Hungary.

            By the way, there is a big difference between government legislated discrimination, and discrimination implemented by private institutions.

            Also, it is a typical and lazy argument- but they did it as well, so it is OK. It doesn’t make it OK, just means that someone else did it. And they are not naming squares and streets and making statues of the college presidents who implemented the numerus clausus policy in the States.

          • justasking

            @Cnut,

            ‘I’m not necessarily anti-Horthy’

            Fascist!
            —

            ‘I feel sorry for the poor, weak, old man put in that position)’

            Yeah, being reduced to such a state; usually happens when people are thrust between a rock and a hard place. I’m sure, if you would have been in his shoes, (not having the hindsight we all have now) Hungary would have ended up on another path altogether.
            ——–

            ‘but I’m just trying to illustrate that he is very controversial’

            I never once said he wasn’t…but, when you have this much passion towards one man from either camp, to simply say ‘No, simply not!!! He’s too controversial, he can not be honored’ is not only not fair, but not right.

            I say lets compromise…monuments will be erected, streets renamed and people can avoid them if they so chose.
            ——
            ‘And they are not naming squares and streets and making statues of the college presidents who implemented the numerus clausus policy’

            What if that same college President, had found a cure for cancer. Should his life’s work be dismissed over this laps in judgement?

            Look, I’m not saying that some of the things Horthy did was right; but, not everything he did was wrong either.

            Acknowledge this, say that he’s a controversial figure, some people see him as a hero, others as evil and present both arguments. Let the individuals at the end, decided which camp they are going to throw their hat behind.

            If on the other hand, people are not allowed to form their own opinion, well what they say is true, democracy in Hungary is eroding.

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            @justasking:

            Exactly. With hindsight, Horthy made some rather wrong decisions (say, I’d say he should have stepped down when Nazi Germany invaded Hungary* or later his attempt to get Hungary out of the war was really botched up) but overall he definitely deserves some statues and some streets to be named after.

            * Well, then who would have saved the J*wish in Budapest from deportation?

          • justasking

            @Leto,

            ‘With hindsight, Horthy made some rather wrong decisions’

            Yeah well, that’s why we have the saying…’when you know better, you do better’. But, lets look at this from another perspective…that of the perpetrator.

            We all know, that Horthy was found not guilty, when tried for war crimes for his involvement during WWII. ***Which, when you REALLY think about it, back then, people were out for blood, (understandable and well deserved) yet, to be found not guilty under those condition…I would say, says allot.

            Anyhow, lets just say, that instead, Horthy was found guilty and sentenced to 40 years in jail. He does his time and is released. Has openly repented, begged all and sundry for their forgiveness, offering his heartfelt apologies. In other words, we have here, a perfectly rehabilitated ex-con.

            Is this man not deserving of forgiveness? I’m not saying past actions are to be excused/forgotten; but, can a person be forgiven and allowed to move on?
            ————

            ‘Well, then who would have saved the J*wish in Budapest from deportation?’

            Those same people/countries, who stood up, banded together and put an immediate end to the insanity that had taken over ALL of Europe…no one.

          • Cnut

            Leto and Justaskin,

            So I presume that you would have no problems with cities and towns naming squares after Kádár, and building some more statues of him. Of course, you wouldn’t like it, but you wouldn’t want the government to step in and stop it.

            He is also very controversial, but I guess then we could just use your compromise logic.

          • justasking

            @Cnut,

            ‘So I presume that you would have no problems with cities and towns naming squares after Kádár, and building some more statues of him’

            What a positively disappointing post from you…I expect such drivel from poster Paul, this sites go to supplier of tulips.

            Fine…I’ll bite. Yes, I would object, to people suggesting that monuments, statues, squares or even squares be named after Kádár; but, before you get your Spanx in a knot, it’s not for the reasons you’re thinking.

            Flat out, he simply doesn’t deserve it. Should he be studied about in schools? Most definitely; but, other than being a PM of Hungary…?

            Now, you’ll have to help me on this one, for I don’t know if he does have a monument, statue, square or even a street named after him. One communist I do support and have a tremendous amount of respect for, one who in my opinion should be honoured and looked upon as a ‘hero’, would be Nagy Imre.

            Why? For dying because of what he believed in…Hungary and Hungarians.

            ***PS: You keep on forgetting the ‘g’ at the end of my handle…that irks me, so please stop.

          • Cnut

            @justasking

            I apologise for leaving off the ‘g’. It wasn’t intentional. I’m in no way pro-Kádár, I’m was just trying to illustrate how other people would see your argument that Horthy is controversial (and offensive to some people), but we should still build statues.

          • justasking

            @Cnut,

            ‘for leaving off the ‘g’. It wasn’t intentional’

            No, not an issue…it just made me sound like a person from ‘the South’.

            You know, them corn-fed, inbred, bucked tooth, banjo playin hillbillies…who ride around in their homo hatin half tonne trucks, with them duel baseball bat holders.

            Oh, shit…on second thought…you just might wanna leave out that ‘g’!

            Hey…have seen the keys to my Dodge dually? :)
            ——

            ‘I’m was just trying to illustrate…’

            I know what you were trying to do…the question is, do YOU understand where I’M coming from?

          • justasking

            @Cnut,

            Shit, shit, shit!!!! I missed this part…’ but we should still build statues’

            I apologize for that, and thank you for understanding where I’m coming from.

            Please ignore the last sentence of the above post.

          • spectator

            Just for your information:
            Hungary declared war against the Soviet Union on June 27, 1941, after the alleged Soviet bombing of Kassa/Košice.

          • justasking

            @spectatorkam,

            ‘Hungary declared war against the Soviet Union on June 27, 1941, after the alleged…’

            Kis szívem, life is a series of events…not just one.

            Germany, pushed Hungary to join the Axis…correct? Hungary, was doing all it could to stay out of the war…correct? How to force Hungary’s hand for them to join the war? You bomb them.

            There is no ‘alleged’ about it, the Soviets bombed Kassa. I know, that it may have been a mistake due to outdated maps…but, the fact remains, they bombed Hungary. To suggest, the way that Cnut did, that Hungary declared war on the Soviets ‘unnecessarily’?

            Technically, Hungary DID declare war on the Soviets; only because a series of events.

  • Hate politicians

    Big fish – you honestly believe that there is a Jewish conspiracy…. So if I get it right left = Jew or communist or post-commie bastard or evil people, right = good honest people

    Hmmmm….

    You and Leto may have a point. I have to agree with it

  • Californicus

    Oh Europe, you wonderful hot head of generational feuds. Who cares if my mother’s great-great-great-grandfather killed their great-great-grandnephew? Those people killed my great-grand-uncle’s wife so they deserve to die! You do the Hatfield’s and McCoy’s proud!

    • justasking

      @Californicus,

      ‘Those people killed my great-grand-uncle’s wife so they deserve to die! You do the Hatfield’s and McCoy’s proud!’

      Actually, you really did hit the nail on the head with that post.

      Like it or not, admit it or not…at some point in time, you all failed each other.

      • justasking

        oops, I forgot to add ‘ you all failed each other in Europe’

  • Billy

    @ Californicus

    The people killed in my family were a lot closer than your mother’s great-great-great-grandfather analogy (actually my father & aunt). The killers are still alive in Hungary today. Some of them pushing their 80′s now. Yet we have had no “Nuremberg trials” for these people. We would love to have “Communist hunters” like they have “Nazi hunters”, but for some reason we are not allowed to. It seems that communist criminals are allowed to escape justice while Nazi criminals were disposed of along time ago. Does this seem fair to you?

    P.S. Google Biszku Béla

    • Viking

      Billy says:
      June 20, 2012 at 1:12 am

      The killers are still alive in Hungary today
      —

      You call yourself “A Proud Magyar” and you still let them stay alive?
      If someone killed my family, I would sure like hell not just complain about it – Coward!

      • Jimmy

        Your are a pretty insensitive animal. Calling someone who has lost their family members a coward. As the man said, communist killers have a special status as they are protected and not prosecuted.

        • Viking

          Here we have a person who claim that he knows who killed his “father & aunt” and that these persons are still alive in Hungary today and never been brought to justice

          Do you believe that story – could we have names who those people are?

          Pls show how these *named_killers* are protected in today’s Hungary
          What stops Fidesz from creating laws so these *named_killers* can be brought to justice?
          They can do this even in Cambodia today, so why cannot Fidesz do this?

          To be an apologist for pre-1990 actions or being a card-carrying member of the Communist Party does not automatic make you into a “killer”, as the same applies to any pro-Nazi person

  • Igazi Magyar

    Lots of Hungarians might think Horthy was just fine, but very few people in the rest of the world agree. Supporting Horthy outside of Hungary might even be considered treasonous, since he went to war with the Allied powers.

    Honoring Horthy only serves to isolate Hungary. It will succeed in pissing off pretty much everyone, except for the loyal Fidesz/Jobbik coalition. It lets Fidesz/Jobbik members to wallow in the idea that they are persecuted by the rest of the world for no reason.

    But if you want to strengthen Hungary, then remember this: Most of the world has good reasons to hate Horthy. The Horthy cult will only serve to harm Hungary, and patriotic Hungarians should fight it.

    • justasking

      @Igazi,

      ‘Most of the world has good reasons to hate Horthy’

      Are you seriously for real?

      Do you really think, that the ‘world’ gives a fat rats ass, about anything that’s happening in Europe…aside from your crisis?

      • Daniel

        haha so true.
        Like people are actually walking around OUTRAGED because some Hungarian across the world is saying “Horthy’s kinda a cool guy, don’t you think Beela?”.
        The left is fabricating false-outrage and all of you are falling for it.

  • justasking

    ‘ By passing four anti-J*wish laws he laid the ground for the H*locaust in Hungary’

    So, the ‘ground work’ for annihilating a group of people was not laid down by Germany…but, by an obscure sex law? Really?
    ————

    ‘Tens of thousands of J*wish men died in forced labour subjugated by the Hungarian army, Many were killed by their own officers or forced to march through minefields to clear them’

    Were J*wish men the only ones subjugated to this?
    ————

    ‘Horthy deported 20,000 J*wish refugees who were then shot by the N*zis’

    Did he know that that was going to be their fate? After this first ‘batch’, did he deport any others? Why/why not?
    ——-

    ***True story*** A few years back, I had a neighbor over for coffee, she happened to have emmigrated over here from Poland. How/why we got onto this subject, for the life of me I can’t remeber. Anyhow, she said to me…’2 of my Uncles were in A*schwitz’ …’Really?’ I said. ‘I didn’t know you were J*wish?’…she gave me this deadpan look and said..’not only Jews were in A*schwitz’
    ——

    Look, I’m not going to get into a pissing contest here. Not for a second, do I, will I, or would I dismiss that a grave injustice was done towards the European J*wish community, during WWII.

    Yet, to say, that Hungary, a country who had sever military restrictions imposed upon it by the Treaty of Trianon at that time, could have prevented and stopped what an ENTIRE CONTINENT could not? I’m sorry, you’re all are delusional if you believe that.

    All that aside, what I find most disturbing, is that both resigms (Hitl*rs and Stal*n’s) are not being found equally revolting and evil. Why is that? Why are we not honoring and remembering ALL the people who had died? in this war…why just some?

    Does that not say something about us as a society…some are more worthy that others?

  • Neighbour

    FOR LETO : here is something from wikipedia about Slovaks lifes in the annexed territories in years 1938 – 1945. As by the Treaty of Trianon the Hungarian economy was depressed, so in Hungary there were longer working hours, higher prices, lower pay, higher taxes, no collective bargaining, no unemployment benefits, almost no leaves of absence from work.[citation needed] The local population failed in most of their attempts to preserve the advantages of the Czechoslovak system[citation needed], but did prevail on one count: both in the annexed territories and throughout Hungary, compulsory education was increased from 6 years to the Czechoslovak standard of 8.[citation needed]

    In violation of the provisions of the award, Hungary imposed military dictatorship[citation needed] on the annexed territories (which were administered by the military) and failed to promote minorities.[citation needed] On the contrary, Slovak, Rusyn, Jewish, and to some extent also German citizens of the annexed territories were subjected to persecution.[citation needed] In particular, Hungarian gendarmes frequently committed violence against Slovaks.[citation needed] The best-known case occurred at Christmas 1938, when gendarmes fired at Slovaks leaving a church, merely because they had sung a Slovak national song during mass.[citation needed] Special military courts which sentenced resistance members to death or torture were nothing out of the ordinary.[citation needed] Looting of Slovak and Czech stores and properties in the annexed territories was commonplace.[citation needed] Many Slovak libraries and books were burned;[citation needed] thousands of Slovak and Czech employees — especially in the railways and public services — were dismissed;[citation needed] Slovak and Jewish trade licenses were revoked;[citation needed] priests unwilling to say mass in Hungarian were tortured.[citation needed] Most Slovak schools were closed (386 primary schools, 28 council schools [\burgher schools\] and 10 gymnasia); protestors were imprisoned, and 862 of 1,119 Slovak teachers were fired.[citation needed] Many of them were presumably among the 100,000 Slovaks and Czechs who fled or were expelled from the annexed territories. Deportations began with an order of November 5, 1938, from the Hungarian Chief of Staff that all Czech and Slovak colonists be expelled from the annexed territories.[citation needed] Only when the upset Slovak government ordered retaliatory measures against Magyars in Slovakia in November 1938, did Hungary start to negotiate.[citation needed] The result of all this was — as the Hungarian ambassador in Prague put it in February 1939[citation needed] — that \emotional conflicts have arisen between the Slovaks and Hungarians that have never existed before\.

    In addition, the Hungarian authorities openly and deliberately called up[citation needed] mainly Slovaks, Romanians and Rusyns into the Second Hungarian Army, which was sent to the Soviet Union in 1942. This army was totally defeated at the Battle of the Don, with thousands of fatalities. In this connection, Hungarian Prime Minister Miklós Kállay said[citation needed] on February 23, 1943: \Thank God the losses of the Hungarian Army did not to an appreciable extent touch the substance of the Magyar nation, because the [non-Magyar] nationalities have lost more lives\.

    • Leto. مؤدّب

      Lots of “citation needed” here… :D :D Even a link is.

  • Neighbour

    http://www.slovakia.org/history-magyarization.htm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarization
    http://www.oocities.org/gogastransylvania/Seton-Watson/Appendice07.htm
    http://www.oocities.org/gogastransylvania/Seton-Watson/Appendice09.htm

    After the Turkish Invasion of Hungary, which resulted in Slovakia becoming the center for Hungarian rule, relations between the Hungarians and Slovaks got worse and worse.
    When the Habsburg Empire gave way to the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the C19th, Hungary suddenly had a more equal footing with its Austrian neighbors. Now that it did not have to directly answer to Vienna, Hungary began to pass new laws the aim of which was to wipe out non-Magyar cultures in Hungary. As the biggest non-Magyar culture in Hungary, the Slovaks suffered the most. Hungarian was the only language taught in schools, only those Slovaks that adopted the Hungarian culture and language could hope to get a decent job. It even got to the extent where Slovak children were taken from their families to be brought up as Hungarians.
    So blatant were Hungary’s efforts to ethnically cleanse Hungary of the Slovak culture and language that a word was given to their actions – Magyarization. During the dark days of the second half of the C19th, many thousands of Slovaks left their homeland to try and build a new life in America. The reason that Magyarization did not succeed, was down to the will of a strongly religious Slovak people, and also to a number of courageous individuals such as Ludovit Stur, who fought for a Slovak language, a separate Slovak identity and ultimately for a separate Slovak sovereign state.

    • Leto. مؤدّب

      So blatant were Slovakia’s efforts to ethnically cleanse Felvidék of the Hungarian culture and language that a word was given to their actions – “Slovakization”

      -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakization

      • neighbour

        Magyarization started in appp. 1850 and lasted on today Slovak territory, till Trianon in 1920, it means 70 years. In today territory of Magyarorszagh, magyarization lasts till now. After Trianon there was a a process of de-magyarization in Czechoslovakia, it means the Slovaks who had got magyarized in previous years could return to their original nationality (my grand grand parents utilized this chance as well). Re-Slovakization started in 1945 and lasted for two – three years. It was an reaction to the brutal oppressions which Magyars had done on Slovaks from 1938 to 1945. Magyars did the similar oppressions on Romanians, Ukrainians and Yugoslavians as well and in revange they killed thousands and thousands Magyars. We, Slovaks, are not so hot-blooded. So Magyars, next time, before you start oppressing somebody, think about possible consequences. You are a minority here in Central Europe, nobody understand you and nobody likes…guess why.

        • Leto. مؤدّب

          @ hülye tótocska:

          You’re a real chauvinist a**hole, a hopeless liar, who belongs to the same category as those Rumanian chauvinist a**holes (“get real”, etc) who swarmed on this site last week and now disappeared.

          I suggest you should talk to regulars like the Swedish moron or spectator instead, you’ll get along nicely with your hungarophobia.

          • Neighbour

            Everybody who says the truth is a chauvinist in your eyes. I live with magyars everyday everyday. Some of my collegues, some of my teammates, some of my friends are Magyars. My godmother is Magyar. So, I know magyars pretty well, much better than you know Slovaks. We live together like humans but we see that Budapest does not like our peaceful coexistance and does their best to put a dispute between us. Fortunately, our magyars are not stupid or most of them and in the last two elections they elected for cooperation with Slovaks not for magyar radicals.

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            You sound very much like an anti-Semite (“some of my friends are J*wish but…”)

  • Whacko

    Are you reading these, Erik?
    Is this what you interpret as “freedom of speech”
    Some of this stuff is – as far as i understand it – Holocaust denial….
    Dunno about Hungary but where I’m from thats illegal…
    But then again, we don’t have an Orban running the press….

    • Leto. مؤدّب

      “Some of this stuff is – as far as i understand it – Holocaust denial….”

      I might have missed something. Can you elaborate which posts and which sentences did you mean?
      Thanks.

  • Karpatok

    I am being censored by the moderator for speaking out against the Zionists!

  • Karpatok

    I am in America and the J*WS have brought ruin to this country just as they did in the twenties.

  • Karpatok

    They own and dominate the media,banking and administration, as well as the federal reserve. They are behind the new world order. They have come back and you are right to fear them.

    • Me

      I’m Jewish (by birth)… Does that mean I’m starting some new world order? You lot are paranoid! We are normal people trying to live normally. I am half Hungarian, probably soon banned from entry based on my religion-by-birth, you couldn’t tell I’m Jewish if I hadn’t just said I am. That’s true for the majority of Jews – just normal people trying to live normal lives. Why the hatred? Is it because millions of innocent Jews were sent, unprovoked, to concentration camps and killed? Your current government is trying to promote Nationalism through alienating all non-Hungarian, non-Christian elements (did you read about the man beaten by police for being Muslim?) to strengthen the Hungarian element of Hungary. Now in theory that’s fine, but what about Hungarian Jews? They seem to get hated for not fitting the cookie-mould ideology. So tell me now, anyone, I’m a Jew. You couldn’t tell just by looking at me. The same goes for most Jews in Hungary. So why hate Jews without even knowing them as people?

      • Louise

        “Your current government is trying to promote Nationalism through alienating all non-Hungarian, non-Christian elements”

        Hi Me..I agree…one correction though, if I may……Fidesz values have nothing to do with true Christian values either.

        • Me

          Then I am at a complete loss as to why the government is going to such extremes – what ideology are they now following? Jews (completely normal people who look, behave, think like everyone else) are being discriminated against, Arabs are too, foreigners are apparently (like the Arab beaten by police). Foreigners I understand to an extent – much of Hungary’s industry is foreign-owned and controlled (but to discriminate against all foreigners? That’s just wrong). And this myth Jews control everything (a myth so commonly mentioned on this site) – we don’t. And why judge industry by what religion the owner belongs to. Should I be annoyed most of England’s industry (where I was born and live) is probably controlled by people who follow one religion. No, it’s a personal belief and does not interfere with how they are as people. There are Jewish communities, there are Christian communities – could I therefore allocate certain stereotypes/prejudices to Christians like many Hungarians do to Jews? No, because there are none. Any random person could one day decide to be Jewish – that wouldn’t mean he’s any different to anyone else just because he believes in Judaism, that wouldn’t mean he changes by becoming a Jew. If he didn’t tell anyone, who would guess he’s a Jew? No-one – Jews are no different as people to anyone else. And people who take Rabbis as stereotypes with their beards etc – what about your Priests and, in extreme cases, Monks and Nuns? Last bit to my rant – the stereotype of Jews and money. Why do people link the two? People say ‘he’s a Jew so he must like money’ (to quote something I overheard which infuriated me) – he should have said ‘he likes money, and he’s Jewish but the two aren’t related’ – because they aren’t related.

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            “Any random person could one day decide to be J*wish ”

            Either (apparently along with things about Hungary), you know about very little about this or you simply lie (that’s my bet)

            -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism

          • Me

            @Leto- Where does it say someone can’t provided they follow the steps? And that page lists a very orthodox traditional view, conversions are much less strict/complex now. Seeing as you, who talks so much about how bad Jews are (though many others unfortunately do as well), had to look this up on Wikipedia just how much do you actually know about the religion you criticise so much?

          • Me

            And, Leto, what don’t I know about Hungary then?

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            For example that J*ws are not being discriminated against in Hungary.
            Glad I could help you.

          • Me

            I take it Jewish graves aren’t being vandalised then? And Jews are not being attacked in the street then? And anti-semitic language is not common then? And all the articles on here on worrying levels of anti-Semitism are all wrong?And you called *me* a liar!

          • Pete H.

            @relies on wiki too much. Fail. Again. Using wiki hardly makes you an expert on anything.

            And you clearly do not know much about Hungary if think that antisemitism is not on the rise in Hungary.

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            Does vandalization of some graves mean discrimination against J*ws then? :D :D
            Ah, you’d like to have other graves to be vandalized, too. I see.

            “And all the articles on here on worrying levels of anti-Semitism are all wrong?”

            All the articles on the worrying levels of anti-Semitism are just that. Articles. A part of the on-going campaign against Hungary and its government.

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            “And you clearly do not know much about Hungary if think that antisemitism is not on the rise in Hungary.”

            Antisemitism is always on the rise, everywhere. Even on the Moon.

          • Me

            You’re missing the point. I don’t want graves of other religions to be vandalized. But I don’t want Jewish graves to be vandalized either – Leto, you make it sound like graves have to be vandalized. They don’t. Your options are a) Jewish b) all; I see an option c) None. The articles aren’t to attack Hungary, Leto – they speak the truth. The events they describe aren’t made up, they are not lies, these things really happen. You say the articles are there to attack the government, I think they’re just there to describe what is happening in Hungary. I think the situation is far from ideal, and in your comment even you linked the anti-Semitic events with the government. Lastly, saying anti-Semitism is on the right – does that fact make it a good thing? No. It shouldn’t be on the rise anywhere. England has lots of Jews living here and very little anti-Semitism compared with Hungary. Before the war, Hungary had a very very big Jewish population (you see, Jews aren’t really outsiders in Hungary as there have always been lots of Hungarian Jews – Hitler and co wiped them out) but now the population of Jews is a lot smaller. How come there is so much anti-Semitism for such a small Jewish population? Yes it’s on the rise everywhere but not by much.

            Now, I’m not one of those Jews who keeps going on about the war (which if I remember is one of the reasons people don’t like them) so tell me, as you don’t seem very keen on Jews, what else do people hate about them? I’m trying to understand the problem so I can give the other side of the story. For a start, I’ve already said Jews are not preoccupied with money (a stereotype started several hundred years ago but completely wrong). I’m not attacking anti-Semites, I completely disagree with them but I just want to see why there is this hatred. Can you help give a few reasons?

          • Me

            Come on Leto, answers please or everyone will think you’re just trolling…!

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            @Me:
            I poked fun of your (implied) sentence “the vandalization of J*wish graves is discrimination against J*ws”. :D

            I didn’t link the anti-Semitic events with the government.
            I linked the accusations of anti-Semitism directed at the government (and at Hungary in general, too) with the government. What a difference.

            “England has lots of Jews living here and very little anti-Semitism compared with Hungary.”

            Really? How can you compare? How many years did you live in England and how many years in Hungary?

            “How come there is so much anti-Semitism for such a small Jewish population?”

            How much? The amount you can read in the newspapers attacking Hungary and its current government? ;)
            BTW, you don’t need any J*ws for anti-Semitism. :)

            “as you don’t seem very keen on J*ws”

            I’m keen on the Finns, the Polish, the Scots, the Irish and I must admit the J*ws don’t belong in this list indeed. (On the other hand I don’t consider myself an anti-Semite. And I don’t care a whistle if someone calls me as such.)
            The main reason for my dislike is the very long list of anti-Hungarian hate-mongers, who rarely fail to advertise their J*wish etnicity when they say something really nasty about Hungarians: Ákos Kertész, Imre Kertész, Péter Dániel, Tamás Bauer, Iván Pető, Mátyás Eörsi, Péter Esterházi, Gusztáv Zoltai, Gábor Horn, György Konrád… Shall I continue? Do you want perhaps a compilation of the most blood-boiling quotes as well from this scum?

          • Me

            So what you’re saying is that a large majority of people against the *government* (nobody said they’re against the country itself) are Jewish. Why not think through your assumption – why link the government with the country? The Jews spoke out less when the MSZP were in power than when Fidesz are. This shows what government is in power *does* make a difference, thus their views are targeted mainly at the government. It just so happens that ‘right wing’ governments *tended* to be anti-Semitic or at least have views like that (this does go back to the government when Hitler was around, and that helped associate right-wing with anti-Semitic and Horthy seems to be considered a hero by Fidesz and Jews are divided on whether he was anti-Semitic or not), so of course Jewish people would like types of government associated with anti-Semitism less. Don’t take them as insults on the country – surely if they (Jews who criticize the government and still live in Hungary) didn’t like the country they’d leave! Or they would have criticized Hungary just as much when the MSZP were in power. You seem to be very patriotic – nothing wrong with that. It just seems you don’t discriminate within insults targeted at Hungary and those targeted at Hungary. Many people I know criticize the current government heavily (lack of freedom of press, removing pensions etc.) but adore Hungary itself. A few preferred it under the Socialist era (I know many suffered then so that wasn’t ideal either), the Hungarian people and Hungary itself on the whole are wonderful and they all agree – it’s justhow the current government treats certain people that gets them complaining and not about the country but about the government. The views of Orban on people considered to be anti-Semitic (perhaps not by you) means more Jews would complain about the government (and, like I said, people not differentiating between thr right-wing party in the era of Hitler and the right-wing party now). I’m sure you could name several non-Jewish people who say just as bad things about Hungary. And the press reports on anti-Semitism – they tend to give factual evidence (they don’t make it up, they just say what happens). If they made up news then that would be a different story!

        • Paul

          @ Leto

          A part of the on-going campaign against Hungary and its government….Naaaw not against Hungary, definitely against this government…which all civilised nations including Eu nations…26 out of 27 is having biiiig problems with.

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            It’s certainly against the country, too. This is also about trying to maintain the status quo: “first rate, civilized” Western Europe vs. “second rate” Eastern European “colonies” where the natives are told what to do.

          • Paul

            @ Leto

            “first rate, civilized” Western Europe vs. “second rate” Eastern European “colonies” ..No…..I would be the first to protest!…hope you trust me on this.

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            You can protest as much as you like but that’s how it is. Unspoken, of course, since it’s not politically correct to say things like this.

          • Paul

            Point taken!

  • judas

    only so much to horthy on a personal level;

    Horthy’s police men were the ones who took my family
    members (father in law and 32 members of his family)out
    of their homes in satu mare transylvania ,put them on cattle trains to Ausschwitz. Not german but hungarian police.
    One survived the rest persished. Hungarians did it.Horthys
    police.

    • Ma Jar

      Before Horthy God created Kun Bela,Samuely Tibor and after Horty He continued His creation with Rakosi Matyas, Gero Erno. To some they are the children of the same God but to many some are devils. Since when is a communist a lesser devil than a nominal fasict? Hells bells they share a common root.

      • …justasking

        @Ma Jar,

        Cute handle…good post!

        • Ma Jar

          Thank you kindly …justasking

  • judas
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