July 2nd, 2012

Gov’t says seeks fair solution for churches providing basic services

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The government is seeking the most “evenhanded” solution in terms of the proportion of services provided by churches in relation to their size and the state financial support they receive, the deputy prime minister told a news conference on Thursday.

Zsolt Semjen noted that churches in Hungary were increasingly taking over institutions in locations where there was no congregation.

These mostly smaller churches might have moved to such places for business reasons, though equally they could have been motivated by the mission to serve, he said. In either case, the state does not have the resources to provide financing for the majority of these institutions, he said, adding that he was drafting a proposal together with Human Resources Minister Zoltan Balog on how to ensure a fair and affordable system of financing.

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  • Viking

    Zero state aid would definitely be both a “a fair and affordable system of financing”

    Otherwise these ‘Christian Democrats’ seem to be very worried about other religious groups ‘spreading their gospel’spel
    Maybe the get inspiration from those countries where ‘spreading their gospel’ is illegal, when it is not the State’s go

  • Géza

    Zero state aid! I agree with that!

    Ofcourse, like in moslim nations and Isreal spreading of the Gospel of Jesus is illegal, in Hungary it must be illegal spreading the teachings of Islam, Judaism or buddhism to non-members of their faith.

    Also no visuable mosque’s in Hungary as place of worship for Islam! Just preserving the historical buildings (mosque’s) like for example in Pécs (with a big christian cross on it) as a museum or for christian worship.

  • Leto. مؤدّب

    This is rather stupid. Hungary is not endangered by the Islam. All we need to do is to make sure Hungary won’t make that mistake in the future either which most of Western Europe, some Scandinavian countries like Sweden or Switzerland in Central Europe made, that is allowing mass immigration of people with an incompatible culture to ours.

    • Leto. مؤدّب

      Meant for Géza at July 2, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    • Curious George

      This is rather stupid

      Agreed! But then, it was from Geza, so that was to be expected.

      • Leto. مؤدّب

        You forgot to attack me for the last (long) sentence… :D

      • Curious George

        Well, I agree with the logic of that sentence (scary, that’s the 2nd time I’ve done that today), although I doubt Hungary will ever have that problem. I also think cultures are more progressive & adaptable than you think. I’ve not heard of any Shariah court back home prosecuting my old school teachers who were mainly Irish priests, who also preached at the cathedral next to my school (kinda shows Geza was talking through his fat ass. I do hope he just an exceptionally stupid Hungarian, and not representative of Hungarians, in general)

        • Leto. مؤدّب

          “scary, that’s the 2nd time I’ve done that today”

          Uh, that’s scary indeed! Probably one of us should consider a thorough revision of his views..

          “I also think cultures are more progressive”

          I simply cannot interpret this garbage. What’s “progressive”? :D And what is it when you say that about a culture? :D

          “& adaptable than you think.”

          I’m struggling with this sentence, too.

          Anyway, let me elaborate on my views about this briefly, instead of trying decipher such sentences:

          It’s not much of a (big) problem if there’s large scale emigration from a “compatible” (similar) culture into another one in a short time span. Say, the several hundreds of thousands of Polish emigrants a few years ago didn’t cause big frictions in the UK. The big problems arise when there’s a large scale emigration from “incompatible” (rather dissimilar) cultures like Islam to (basically) Christian societies (or the other way around). Small scale emigration can be, more or less, handled. Quite obviously, the more dissimilar these cultures are, the less amount of mixing is desirable and the more time adaptation requires.

          One would think this is quite evident… but apparently it wasn’t for the proponents of “multiculturalism”. (Or maybe it was… if one starts making up conspiracy theories. :o )

          The countries I referred to above made the big mistake of allowing (and earlier encouraging!) emigration waves of the second type and they are paying and they are going to pay dearly for that…

        • Géza

          You are blind for what is happening in the US or you lost touch with it completely.

          “President Obama has tabbed the former dean of Yale Law School, Harold Koh, to become the legal adviser for the State Department. Koh opined that he didn’t see any reason why sharia law would not be applied to govern a case in the United States.”

          Search for example ‘the Pennsylvania case state judge Mark Martin. Case: Ernest Perce vs Talag Elbayomy.”

          In the UK it is already normal practise, shaira courts.

          Wake up for reality dear man!

          • Curious George

            Really, Harold Koh? That’s a strange European name. Is he Hungarian?

        • Curious George

          Cultures are an amalgamation of more than 160 different characteristics, many of which are shared across dissimilar geographic regions. What do I mean by progressive & adaptable – basically it means being able to change with the surroundings & times. Sure, some cultures are able to adapt faster than others, but all cultures will change, including the Taliban, although that might take some time.
          I disagree with your Polish example in the UK. There was unhappiness in some segments of the population, but not as vocal. If you don’t believe me, just check anti Polish sentiment in the UK from your favourite source. Also, do you remember the Polish plumber ads in France?

          I think some British Indians and East Asians have integrated into the UK better than many of the Polish despite having more different backgrounds. Just look at BBC news, and take a look at the number of Indian newscasters, or hospitals at the number of Indian doctors. Also, look at Mishal Hussien (Pakistani), or Zainab Badawi(Ethiopia), both Muslim reporters of immigrant stock. Basically, being able to integrate depends on the individual more than the culture. I’m absolutely sure, if I wanted to, I would be able to adapt in any immigrant country a lot easier than a Hungarian.
          Of course, large scale immigration will cause problems in any country. That’s a moot question. You talking about emigration of the second type is rubbish, since I’ve already given you examples above disproving your statement.

          • Leto. مؤدّب

            “I disagree with your Polish example in the UK. There was unhappiness in some segments of the population, ”

            I’m fully aware of this, saw and read things like that. What I meant was that given the amount of influx of Poles and the time scale, I’d consider this friction pretty small.

            “I think some British Indians and East Asians have integrated into the UK better than many of the Polish despite having more different backgrounds.”

            I’m not going to argue against this could be true as well. Yes, like you wrote: “some”. And the bigger numbers must show the opposite.
            So my concept for “emigration of the second type” does make a lot of sense.

    • Géza

      @Leto

      Maybe in your eyes it sounds rather stupid, but I have a good reasons for saying this.

      With all the knowledge what happened in the Western world, knowledge about Islam and what the EU (and UN) is planning, also with Hungary, it isn’t that stupid anymore what I said.

      Why are we (people of Europian descent) the only ones on this planet, who can not protect our way of life, but it is not questioned if everybody else (non Europian descent) do it.

      It started small in the West too. They didn’t made rules like that in the beginning and now it is to late.

      Immigration is not really in the hands of Hungary anymore, but in those of Brussel. You know about their immigration policies.

      So mass immigration to Hungary did start already, slowly, because they don’t want alarm the people, till it is to late for us too. This is exactly how they did it in the West.

      Already Brussel is funding immigration into Hungary of third world immigrants, mostly moslim.

      Dear Leto if this will not be stopped, you will witness scenes like you did in the UK and saw all over the web about Western and Northern Europe today, in Hungary. Then you will remember this conversation.

      Last week: “The EU should “do its best to undermine” the “homogeneity” of its member states, the UN’s special representative Peter Sutherland for migration has said.”

      The EU does exactly this for a long time!

      That is the real agenda Leto and they are talking about mass immigration from the third world into our countries to undermine our (europian descent) homogeneity!
      There is enough information around to proove my point. So call what I said stupid…history will judge!

      • Leto. مؤدّب

        I think my post at July 2, 2012 at 8:05 pm saddresses yours, too.

  • Géza

    @Leto

    “It’s not much of a (big) problem if there’s large scale emigration from a “compatible” (similar) culture into another one in a short time span.”

    Not one culture will servive large scale immigration in a short time span! Even when it is of a “similar” culture. What is similar? A italian and a Swede? A Briton and a Greek? Or do you believe the EU propagenda of “the europian”?

    Whe (Europian nations) share some similar things, more then people with people from outside Europe, but we are also so different from eachother. Not what the people behind the EU want you to understand,

    The majority of the large groups of polish immigrants, you are talking about, will keep their own culture and don’t adopt english, german. dutch, belgium culture, it is not human nature and not the reality of life and human history!

    Do the majority of Britons (Germans, Dutch ,Belguims ect) agree with you? It is their country/culture!
    It is easy for you to say as a foreigner to their country, that it is not a real problem!

    Is this your view for Hungary’s future, no problem, let 100s of thousends of immigrants come from “similar” cultures?

    Besides this, there aree major problems with polish immigrants in several countries. Also a lot of info about this.

    Small numbers of immigrants from “similar” cultures over time is no problem at all, they will assimilate (they have to to survive), large scale immigration will create a competing force and unnecessary unrest.

    • Leto. مؤدّب

      “What is similar? A italian and a Swede?”

      No doubt the Swedish and Norwegian cultures are more similar than that. On the other hand the Italian and Swedish cultures are more similar than Swedish and Somalian (according to Wikipedia “The Somali community is one of the fastest growing groups in Sweden”)

    • Leto. مؤدّب

      Ah, where did I write “my view for Hungary’s future is let 100s of thousends of immigrants come from “similar” cultures?”

      “Besides this, there aree major problems with polish immigrants in several countries. Also a lot of info about this.”

      Oh, do tell me…

  • Géza

    “Ah, where did I write “my view for Hungary’s future is let 100s of thousends of immigrants come from “similar” cultures?”

    Well!

    “It’s not much of a (big) problem if there’s large scale emigration from a “compatible” (similar) culture into another one in a short time span.”
    (the several hundreds of thousands of Polish emigrants a few years ago didn’t cause big frictions in the UK.)

    Or did you mean, that you don’t have any problem with large scale immigration from “sinilar” cultures into other countries then (our country) Hungary? :-)

    • Leto. مؤدّب

      I meant in general that large scale emigration from a “compatible” (similar) culture into another one in a short time span doesn’t cause (unmanageably) big problems for a country.

      As far as your specific question is concerned, because of the awful demographic figures, Hungary is not going to be able to avoid a significant amount of immigration in the next 50 or so years, even if the trends could be reversed very soon. (And that’s a very difficult thing to do.) The only question is what kind of people would come and at what rate. We definitely shouldn’t and must not go down that route Germany took with the Turkish, France with the Arabs, the UK with its former colonies, etc.

      • Géza

        @Leto

        I agree with you that the awfull demographic figures are not something to be cheerfull about.
        Ofcourse I really hope this trend will be reversed soon, but significent amount of immigration of people from a similar culture is also in my few not a solution to our problems, but even a dissision that will create more problems for us as a nation.

        Although that I agree with you if there will be some immigration, that we definitely shouldn’t and must not go down that route Germany took with the Turkish, France with the Arabs, the UK with its former colonies, etc.

        It is a very difficult subject and I think we have to look sereously into other options then immigration, in the first place, into our country.

        The modern version of the “welfare state” is one of the causes of the decline and one of our weaknesses.
        I also think that we have to accept that the modern welfare state is something we have to let go off. See it as a failed project of human history for many reasons.

        Immigration as solution to maintain the modern welfare state is a short term view, that will cause a minority status for the hungarian generations to come. As we saw in the western countries, immigration only created more debt and no solution at all.

        It is difficult.

        • Leto. مؤدّب

          Tell me about those “other options”.

          Even if the average birth rate would increase well above 2.2 tomorrow (that’s the threshold for a population to stay constant) it would take many decades to reverse the population decline and to restore the age distribution to a stable state.

  • Géza

    @Curious George

    “Really, Harold Koh? That’s a strange European name. Is he Hungarian?”

    I thought that ethnicity was not a issue for you enlightened “world citizens”? Why bring it up then!

    He is “american” (what ever that means, beside if you are native indian) who is a friend of Obama who didn’t see any reason why sharia law would not be applied to govern a case in the United States!

    • Curious George

      It isn’t an issue for me. You seem to think that logic & capabilities are culture dependent, hence I asked you if he was Hungarian, since he obviously came up with a legal opinion which you found as stupid as we find your opinions.
      I’ve no problems with shariah law if it is updated & moderated in relation to the current times, context & society. Try researching that to see if it is even possible, before you reply. I’m pretty sure Harold did do the research before giving his legal opinions. Here’s a link to help update you on what sharia is/can be. -http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234870.stm

  • olga

    @ Viking

    I was under the impression that spreading the gospel was not the issue, getting gov’t support (as in taxpayer’s money) was state support

    About 5 years ago, my husband and I were in Eger sitting at a cafe when 2 American University students approached us to “discuss the Mormon Church” – it’s seems they have( or had 5 years ago) some sort of head quarters in Eger and in the summers, they shipped over University kids to “spread the word” – the only interest I had in the Mormon Church was to ask if they had any success with local Hungarians since none of the students spoke Hungarian and I just assumed most of the people would be Catholic, Protestant and did not speak English. The answer was they didn’t know because they just got to Eger.

    I don’t know if FIDESZ is giving tax breaks or funding to the Mormon Church nor the other weird churches like Hit Gyulekezete where followers speak in tongues but I sincerely hope for the Hungarian taxpayers’ sake, ” hogy egy fillert sem kapnak ” (I know the filler is gone but it was an expression I heard from my parents and the Canadian version would be that I hope they don’t get a dime from any gov’t source)

    BTW, that case Geza mentioned in the US re “Ernest Perce vs Talag Elbayomy (it’s Talaag and the details are easy to find on the Internet) – it had nothing to do with Sharia law and the only people who thought so were the same type of nuts who insist Pres. Obama is a Muslim. The case against Elbayomy was dismissed because of a grainy video and lack of proper admissible evidence. BTW, they accused the Judge of being Muslim but that was news to him

  • Curious George

    @Olga – thank for the info on Perce vs Talaag. You can always trust Geza to lie at least once in every post.

  • Géza

    @Curious George

    A updated & moderated form of shaira law is a illusion, that muslims only accept as a first step. It only shows your lack of knowledge of Islam and the (present) history of this religion all over the planet. You liberals are just “usefull idiots” to them.

    ….Do some research yourself George, before accusing someone of lying!

    The Ernest Perce vs Talag Elbayomy case shows a slow shift/kneefall to the spirit of shaira law by a US judge what will be a implimentation of it in the future, if not stopped. BTW there are many more cases like this around the US. A wise man will do some research on matters he wants to discuss.

    I was talking about that shift which is against western values. Martin dismissed the case, but it is about what happened next, what is all about the spirit of Shaira law.

    “Judge Martin concluded the proceedings with a lecture – directed at Perce for his lack of sensitivity. Here is a partial transcript of that lecture:

    “Having spent over two-and-a-half years in a predominantly Muslim country, I think I know a little bit about the faith of Islam. In fact, I have a copy of the Koran here, and I would challenge you, sir, to show me where it says in the Koran that Mohammed arose and walked among the dead. … Mr. Thomas [Elbayomi's defense lawyer] is correct. In many other Muslim speaking countries – excuse me, in many Arabic speaking countries – call it “Muslim” – something like this is definitely against the law there. In their society, in fact, it could be punishable by death, and it frequently is, in their society. Here in our society, we have a constitution that gives us many rights, specifically, First Amendment rights….But you have that right, but you’re way outside your bounds on First Amendment rights …”

    “Islam is not just a religion, it’s their culture, their culture. It’s their very essence their very being. … What you have done is you have completely trashed their essence, their being. They find it very very very offensive. I’m a Muslim [as well as a Lutheran? - JB], I find it offensive.”

    This is how it starts George! After this there will be a slow or fast implimentation of shaira law.

    • Curious George

      Ofcourse, like in moslim nations and Isreal spreading of the Gospel of Jesus is illegal,
      Géza says: July 2, 2012 at 5:47 pm

      That statement was a lie as I have demonstrated above. In fact, in Indonesia, which has the biggest Muslim population of any country, protection of Christianity is part of the constitution. Indonesia actually had a Muslim preacher for a president (Abdul Rahman Wahid). He had the biggest following among any muslim leader there. Go look up how he not only practised a very moderate form of Islam, he even tried to make it even more moderate and accommodating of other religions. Wahid visited Israel six times. In an 2004 interview, he said, “I think there is a wrong perception that Islam is in disagreement with Israel. This is caused by Arab propaganda. We have to distinguish between Arabs and Islam”. In another, he said
      “Israel believes in God. While we have a diplomatic relationship and recognizing diplomatically China and Russia, which are atheist states, then it’s strange that we don’t acknowledge Israel. This is the thing that we have to correct within Islam.”
      A updated & moderated form of shaira law is a illusion, that muslims only accept as a first step
      I don’t share that opinion and neither do many muslims, as can be seen by the statement above (in bold). Yes, many Muslims didn’t actively challenge the fanatics in their religion who were pushing for an extremist interpretation since the 80s, but they are beginning to. I know many muslims, and they are appalled at how their religion is being skewered in the media, and by people like you. In my country, there is no movement towards a more restrictive interpretation of Islam, and I doubt there ever will be – I’d bet everything I have on that. One of my closest friends is the son of an Imam, and he and all his siblings have moved towards a more open form of Islamic faith. Same with most of my other Muslims friends. In fact, all of them are less fanatic than you (compared to them, you’re more like Breivik). I do not doubt that some muslim countries have seen a resurgence of a stricter interpretation, but on the whole, I think most are actually gradually moving in the opposite direction.
      Re: Perce vs Talaag – As Olga pointed out, you’re trying to mislead by bringing up that irrelevant and inconclusive court case.

  • olga

    @ Geza

    Judge Martin dismissed the case on the grounds there was insufficient evidence and refused to allow a grainy video to be entered into the proceedings but the actual outrage was about the lecture Judge Martin gave the accused

    read an article dated March 3, 2012 by Cathy Young on reason.com, title: “Islam, Free Speech and Democracy”

    The article explains the “Sharia allegation” and questions why only one party was given a lecture which does seem unfair but it does not mean that the US is in danger of Sharia Law.

    When it comes to dismissing cases due to lack of evidence, think Budahazy or Kepiro. Doesn’t mean they were innocent of charges, simply means that in a Democracy, insufficient evidence results in dismissal

    The way you managed to connect Sharia law in the USA (?) and the topic of the Hungarian government’s funding and/or giving tax breaks for churches is very creative indeed.

  • Géza

    @ Olga

    if you read my peice carefully you could see I was talking about “the spirit” of sharia in the lecture of judge Martin.

    This spirit in combination of mass immigration from moslim countries is a treat to the US as it is for the Europian countries. To deny that fact, is naive.

    I didn’t connect shaira law with the topic of the hungarian government! If you read everything in connection with eachother, you would notice that I replied on what Vikng said. Everything else came from that.

  • Curious George

    “If you read everything in connection with eachother, you would notice that I replied on what Vikng said.”
    Starting with a blatant lie @Geza – You lie so much that I wonder if lying is part of the Hungarian culture which you say defines you.

  • Viking

    Géza says:
    July 2, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    Ofcourse, like in moslim nations and Isreal spreading of the Gospel of Jesus is illegal, in Hungary it must be illegal spreading the teachings of Islam, Judaism or buddhism to non-members of their faith
    —

    And of course Hungary should not be better than those countries, let those countries set the level in Hungary

  • Viking

    Leto. مؤدّب says:
    July 2, 2012 at 8:05 pm

    The big problems arise when there’s a large scale emigration from “incompatible” (rather dissimilar) cultures
    —

    Yeah, like the ‘Magyars’ invading the Carpathian Basin
    Think all the grief Europe would had been saved from, if that immigration had not happened

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