Top NewsFormer Hungarian Prime Minister Gyula Horn dead at 80 [3]
September 6th, 2012

President opens “Finno-Ugric World Congress” in West Hungary

Hungarian President Janos Ader opened the 6th World Congress of Finno-Ugric Peoples in Siofok, western Hungary, on Wednesday.

Ader said linguistic kinship meant that peoples that belonged to the same language family were not alone.

“We have other peoples to share a past, present, and future with — others we are responsible for,” Ader said.

Sharing a language is an opportunity to preserve the national identity and further develop a people’s own culture, as well as to “understand each other and ourselves,” Ader said.

He paid tribute to linguists, archaeologists and ethnographers who have dedicated their lives to “enriching our knowledge about the language and the homeland the first Finno-Ugric tribes once shared.”

“It has taken hundreds of years of constant research. We must bow our heads to the achievements of the scientists of past generations,” he said.

Estonian and Finnish presidents Toomas Hendrik Ilves and Sauli Niinisto attended the opening ceremony of the three-day congress. Russian minister of culture Vladimir Medinsky, as well as representatives of 25 Finno-Ugric peoples, are also participants.

The World Congress was established in 1992 by Hungary, Estonia, Finland, and Russia. The congress meets in a different country every four years.

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  • Rev. Billy Munday

    Better this than war, better this than petty tribal jealousy!

    • Aloof

      Agree with you 100% on that Rev.

  • Magyar

    What happened to Turanism?
    Or is that now passé?

  • Anonymous

    @Magyar – Turisim is alive and well and is active not passive for millions visit Hungary each year.

  • Daniel

    The finno-ugric theory is one of marvels because it proves the central European origin of the earliest of Hungarian ancestors. Although the prevailing 19th century theory places the Hungarian ancient homeland somewhere near the ural mountains, recent archeological, and anthropological evidence reveals proto-ugric markers all around Europe, with its highest density withing the Carpathian basin.
    Although a baffling discover for some, most linguists should not be shocked by this revelation, as the prevailing linguistic doctrine already maintains that the Finno-Ugric Language group predates Indo-European by millenia. The archeological discoveries just solidify this point.
    the following website, michelangelo.cn, documents this purely on an archeological standpoint. I urge all Hungarians and avid historians to check it out.

    • MagyarViking

      Daniel says:
      September 6, 2012 at 4:39 pm

      the following website, michelangelo.cn
      —-

      Yes, that is the website and its open letter we had a lot of fun with on pestiside ages ago…

      “linguistic doctrine” has very little to do with archaeological evidence and DNA and is a pot for conflicting “proof”

      And many of these “linguistic doctrine” starts with the Sumerian language, then it is totally dead language, with no living relatives and hence can be a good starting point for every new “linguistic doctrine”

    • Californicus

      Linguists not shocked by attempts to identify which language was spoken by the owner of an object; go figure!

    • Californicus

      Anthropology according to some:
      Step 1 – Find “Made in China” plastic toy buried in European ground.
      Step 2 – Insist the owner of the pot spoke Chinese.

      • Rolrox

        Was made in China written in Chinese? If this was buried, wouldn’t it be an Archaeologist not Anthropologist?

    • Californicus

      Step 3 – Insist everyone who lived in Europe where toy was found spoke Chinese.

      • MagyarViking

        here, here

      • Daniel

        All languages have a culture, and that culture has cultural markers. If you find an archeological site that has is riddled with goddess (venus) figurines then you can be rest assured this culture is not Aryan, as that is not an Aryan cultural marker. Its pretty simple really.
        Archeologists are fully aware of the Indo-European invasion phenomena that occurred circa 5000 BC and slowly displaced the native European matriarchal cultures. How do we know Finns, Lapps, and Magyars are the descendants of this earlier culture? Simple, these are the last cultures in Euro-Asia that still contain within them these matriarchal artistic motifs.
        Genetics also support this theory, because through the help of genetic studies we now know that the prevailing European genes, R1a and R1b, predate the earliest Indo-Europeans by at least 15 goddamn millennia.
        Throws out the whole blond hair blue eyes being Aryan myth that Hitler fabricated for himself doesn’t it?
        Also sheds light into why Hungarians and Russians have these genes. We know Russia was 60 percent Ugric in the middle ages. Well where did their genes go? Nowhere.

        • Viking

          Daniel says:
          September 7, 2012 at 6:33 pm

          the native European matriarchal cultures

          Finns, Lapps, and Magyars are the descendants of this earlier culture

          WoW
          You really have explained there have you not?
          Such a pity that the many in scientific community would not agree with you

          Humans (hunter-gatherers) first arrived in Europe 45,000 years ago, replacing a Neanderthal population.
          Farmers immigrated into Central Europe, settling first in the Carpathian Basin, about 7,500 years ago, initially without mixing with local hunter-gatherers

          Comparing mtDNA sequences from late European hunter-gatherers (up to 13,000 years old) with sequences from early farmers (7,500 years old), as well as with sequences from modern Europeans significant genetic differences between all three groups have been found which cannot be explained by population continuity

          Most (82%) of the hunter-gatherers share a genetic lineage known as “U”, which is still found today in a minority of Europeans – about 5% of Mediterranean people, increasing northwards to 20-40% of traditional tribes in north-eastern Russia and Finland, such as the Saami

          The major DNA type among the farmers, however, was type N1a, which is exceptionally rare, found in less than 0.2% of the European population

          The fact that this lineage was not shared with the hunter-gatherers means that the farmers were immigrants

          So many Europeans today, especially in the north and north-east, carry ice-age hunter lineages

          So this would then be the real ‘Original Europeans’, even if they still immigrated initially

          As you see, no ‘Magyars’ in this reserch…

          And where did you get that the Aboriginal Europeans had “matriarchal cultures”?
          Just because they carved female figures out of sandstone and used as pornography?

          Well then current Hungary must be the most “matriarchal culture” in the world today

          • Daniel

            Although what you said is correct, it does not disprove my original point about the current genes of Europeans predating Indo-Europeans by thousands of years. This is true, as the R1 haplogroup is at least 15000 yeas old, and the earliest archeological evidence of indo-european speakers dates back to 7000BC at the latest. The simple fact is, Europe has not seen a significant genetic overhaul since since at least 15000 bc. Do the math.

            “And where did you get that the Aboriginal Europeans had “matriarchal cultures”?”
            This fact accepted by all mainstream archeologists, as the issue quite obvious. To debase the overwhelming prevalence of female figurines of pre-aryan Europeans is dangerously ignorant. Those figurines are goddesses, and their nakedness is a testament to the matriarchal, egalitarian nature of the said culture. Look at crete. The Mycenaean borrowed almost every aspect of thier culture, even their attire. They had but ONE modification, and that was to cover the breasts of the woman up.
            Fascinating is it not? Think of Zeus. Stories of Zeus told to greek children include him RAPING countless amount of girls. Remember Agamemnon? The sadistic fuck sacrificed his own daughter, and to what end? To rape another.
            This is the nature of Aryans.
            And the Magyar aspect in all of this is not necessarily relevant because ALL Europeans share the same genes. We are not descendents of Aryans, we are their slaves.

          • Magyar

            “And the Magyar aspect in all of this is not necessarily relevant because ALL Europeans share the same genes. We are not descendents of Aryans, we are their slaves.”

            *We* Hungarians are not Slaves of Indo-Europeans.

            And not all Europeans are genetically the same.

            Western Europeans assimilated the Basques and Aquitarians.
            Celts were just Celtified Basques.

          • Viking

            Daniel says:
            September 8, 2012 at 12:01 am

            To debase the overwhelming prevalence of female figurines of pre-aryan Europeans is dangerously ignorant. Those figurines are goddesses, and their nakedness is a testament to the matriarchal, egalitarian nature of the said culture

            I am not debating that there are a big number of female-looking small statues, often with features that goes with being pregnant, but I question a theory that is discarded today

            “”The view of matriarchy as constituting a stage of cultural development now is generally discredited. Furthermore, the consensus among modern anthropologists and sociologists is that a strictly matriarchal society never existed.”
            ‘Matriarchy’, Encyclopædia Britannica, 2007″

            I recommend that you read something more modern than pre-WWII

        • Californicus

          Yes, languages and not people have culture. Everyone who played with a Chinese-made toy speaks Chinese. It’s a cultural marker, like Godzilla. American kids speak Japanese if they have a Godzilla.

          • Daniel

            “Yes, languages and not people have culture”
            That pretty much sums up prevailing indo-european theory, which maintains that everyone who had a leader who spoke an Aryan tongue was automatically a leader of an Aryan people. Meaning, a Chinese momo from Hong Kong is racially Indo-European because he speaks English. Which we both know, is nonsense.

            “Everyone who played with a Chinese-made toy speaks Chinese.”
            That statement does not apply to paleolithic times.
            A more accurate statement would be that, “any culture that is attributed with with art and religious practices from solely that of Chinese origin, is most fucking definitely Chinese when we are talking about ancient history.” If that was not a rule of thumb for archeologists, then they would might as well have just given up, because the whole profession would be so chaotic it would be goddamn pointless.

          • Californicus

            You really don’t give ancient man enough credit. They most certainly did move around and trade much more than you think. And you completely misunderstand archaeology/anthropology which organizes finds into “cultures” without ascribing linguistic properties because again, ancient man moved around a lot more than you give them credit for. Nor do you really have a grasp on the Indo-European theory, which is still undergoing refinement, and even if it is as you say, that is little excuse for you to make the same mistake with your own ideas.

  • Munch

    Forgive my ignorance, but why are the Russians there?

    • Leto مؤدّب

      Because the Ugric peoples live in Russia.

      -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_peoples

      Ceterum censo MSZP delendum est.

  • Valóságosság

    According to the only genetic study of ancient Hungarian fossiles (led by professor Raskó) The Hungraian ruling elite contains Finno-ugric N1C1 haplogroup marker, The common people have mostly R1A (typical eastern European) markers.

    http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1088/2/T%C3%B6m%C3%B6ryt%C3%A9zisek.pdf

  • Viking

    Erik,
    You must put back this page again:
    -http://www.pestiside.hu/20070827/hungarians-invented-the-alphabet-according-to-this-italian/

    Many other pages links to it and you just end up in a 404

    I remember it was a rather fun discussion that we could revive now, giving some perspective on today’s debates

    • Viking

      Actually I found the page, but under another URL
      Seems like you made some changes, but forgot to update all old articles that link to the old URL

      Anyway here it is:
      -http://www.pestiside.hu/20070827/hungary-may-hav/

      • Anonymous

        That Italian spoke rubbish and another Italian, a certain Enrico Fermi found out about the truth: Hungarians are from Mars.

  • Farkas László

    I’ve spoken strongly in favor of Hungary cementing cultural and commercial ties with the Finno Ugric peoples of Russian and Siberia.

    Territorially, these tribes occupy lands that would make the 64 county Greater Hungary the equivalent of a Luxembourg by comparison! God only knows what mineral, energy and resource wealth these people are sitting on top of; with a lot of it still potentially untapped. I’m sure these folk, especially in the autonomous regions (of which Russia has a number), might have considerable lattitude in deciding who they want to work with on exploration and development. That’s where glib, hand shaking, deal closing Hungarians come in!

    I don’t want to weigh in on whether we are really related to those people or not. If we can get THEM to believe in our common blood and kinship, that is what is important, especially when you are talking about devloping oil, mineral and gas wealth. I’ll play “blood bother” to most anybody if that helps Hungarians close a deal worth billions (as in Euros, not Forints!)! If our MOL wants to go in there and play this kind of race card and win big contracts -more power to them!

    Testvérek!

    • seinean

      @Farkas Laszlo ur

      Sir, one does not start a sound business by deceiving/misleading one’s partner. Go, inquire, make a sound business proposition and stand by it but do not sugar-coat it in “blood brother” talk.

      • Farkas László

        Whether it is or not an intentional deception or not, the validity of the theory is widely debated.

        Personally, I would leave it up to those Finno Ugric peoples and their government represntatives to decide, just how much kinship and acceptance they are willing to accord us! All business revolves around acceptance and trust of the agreeing parties. If they don’t want to believe in such ancestral linkage, then the deal people will have to find another selling point.

        • seinean

          @Vasile Lupu: Then don’t deceive youself. The Russisans are the ones you’ll have to deal with. More specific – the Russian governmet backed oligopolists . Expecting otherwise would be naive.

      • Magyar

        @seinean ,Look at the Wallachian cioban talking about deceiving and misleading!

        • seinean

          @”Magyar” Look and listen quietly my boy. Have you took the time to start reading Dune ? “War and peace” is still waiting for you…

          • justasking…

            @seinean,

            Speaking of reading…did you ever finish that book I recommended to you? What did you think?

          • seinean

            @justasking

            I certainly read tha book. Thank you for refering me to it. It contains a lot of of well researched and presented information. It is a valuable tool to understand what happened.

            However I cannot say that it drastically changed my viewes about Trianon.

          • justasking,

            @seinean,

            ‘However I cannot say that it drastically changed my viewes about Trianon’

            Fair enough….was the shift in you views more along the line of the WAY it happened, as opposed to WHY it happened?

            Also, what do you know now, that you did not know before reading that book?

            My intention was never to ‘change your mind’ about Trianon; but, to share with you book that was not tainted by propaganda. This author had nothing to gain from writing it, other than sharing documented history.

          • seinean

            @justasking

            \…line of the WAY it happened, as opposed to WHY it happened? \

            Yes, it was.
            \…what do you know now, that you did not know before reading that book?\

            A couple of things like:

            - the fact that there was a real possibility for Russia to be invited at the Peace Conference.

            - the huge number of issues that the peacemakers were supposed to deal with. In fact some (many) issues were not analysed in deep and were not addressed at all.

            - the relatively small ammount of time dedicated to debating and deciding the terms of the peace treaty with Hungary and Austria. It is almost like the Peace Coference concerned itself more with who was supposed to take over Togo and Cameroon.

            - I was not aware about the presence in Paris of Queen Marie of Romania.

            - The important role played by non-European members of the British delegation.

            - The explanation about the difference in treatment between Austria and Hungary

          • justasking,

            @seinean,

            I appreciate your honesty. It’s amazing what one learns when you weed through all the bullshit.

            If you ever want another book recommendation, ones that will have you saying ‘I did not know that’…I’ve got a list.

        • seinean

          @justasking

          I would highly appreciate any reading suggestions. Thank you.

          • Leto مؤدّب

            I’d recommend this book which I’m reading now: -http://www.libri.hu/konyv/sertesek-a-bakonyban.html

            It’s a great, very readable bed-time reading on linguistics and languages (both Indo-European and Finnish-Ugric languages)

            Among others I learnt how the Rumanian language acquired that weird end-of-the-word article -ul (“domnul”) expressing “the” (or “a, az” in Hungarian)

            Well, unfortunately it’s in Hungarian. :D :p

            Ceterum censeo MSZP delendum est.

          • justasking,

            @seinean,

            I have an entire shelf in my bookcase, dedicated to what I call ‘controversial reads’…they include authors who may have written controversial book(s), or the book is about a controversial topic…or both.

            Not knowing what your tastes are, I’d like to recommend a couple of books, by an author I have a great amount of respect for…too bad he’s dead.

            His name is Christopher Hitches.

            This man was like a wolverine when he went after a public figure/topic. Leaving no stones unturned to get information, his sources were based on facts, ie State documents etc, and not vague statements such as…’a source close to this author said’…

            I recommend any and all of his books, especially the ones he wrote on 1) the Clinton’s (yes, the former US president..that one) titled…’No One Left to Lie to-The Value of the Worst Family’ as well, 2) the one he wrote on Henry Kissinger -can’t remeber the title; but, you can find it on Amazon.com/.ca or where ever you may live.

            Hitch believes that Kissinger should be tried as a war criminal.

            Now, he did write another scathing book, one on Mother Teresa titled ‘The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice, I have not read this yet, but going by his other ones…it would be eye popping-ly informative and entertaining.

            Although I may not agree with his stand on some issues, guaranteed, the topic interesting and his arguments will thought provoking. Some of his speaking engagements can be found on u-tube.

            If this is not up your alley, tell me what would be.

    • Magyar

      Mr Farkas László, currently, these people have still are still mostly living in their traditional lifestyles. Especially hunting and gathering.

      I don’t want to mean offence to them, but it would be the equivalent of us wanting an economic partnership with Native American Indians, or Australian Aboroginals!

      Speaking of resources, they are currently being exploited by Russia, and their natural habitats are being ruined.

      Another interesting thing is that Hungarians make up 56% of all Finno-Ugric speakers (if the theory is true).

      Finns, Estonians and Hungarians (only ‘Finno ugric’ states) make up 80% of all Finno-Ugric speakers.

      I simply cannot see simple rural folk, who dont actually own the resources they live on being able to help us in any way.

      However, if I am wrong, I would not refuse co-operation with them, but Jobbik’s initiative to co-operate with Turkic states is a whole different ball game.

      • Farkas László

        Kedves Magyar,

        For what could be at stake, it’s worth a try! I’m being pragmatic about it. What I don’t want, is for a debate about ethnic origins to overshadow the big prize, which is for us in the present and future to seize.

        BTW, MOL does have deals going in Russia. You don’t necessarily have to be a Russian firm, (but it sure helps!)

        • Magyar

          You have mentioned the autonomous regions before.

          Lets look at some statistics:
          Khanty Mansi Autonomous okrug= 1.3% Khanty and 0.8% Mansi!
          Udmurtia= 28.0% Udmurt, 62.2% Russian.

          This applies to pretty much all Finno-Ugric Autonomous areas in Russia, Russians are an absolute Majority in them.

          • seinean

            Well, you can still try to make business with the Sumerians howevwer.

          • Magyar

            Maybe you could try and make allies with the Daco-Gypsies?

            If it wasn’t for Transylvania, all of Romania would look like Republic of Moldova, or maybe post war Kosovo.

          • seinean

            “La Comédie humaine” is waiting as well…

  • Farkas László

    The fact that the Hungarian government itself is interested in testing these waters with “congress” meetings is revealing. What comes of it remains to be seen, but remember: “nothing ventured, nothing gained”.

    Hungarians who are trained in geology and mineral exploration, as well as an energy firm like MOL, need to be looking for resources anywhere in the world, whether they are in Finno Ugric territories or not. (A geologist gets a nice percentage of any new discovery, which ever oil or gas firm ends up extracting it!)

    • Magyar

      I think we should also focus on economically dominating the whole of the Carpathian Basin, that will be important for us.

      • Farkas László

        Hi Magyar,

        Many things there are to focus on!

        That’s what a whole nation of individuals can do- focus on different issues with their different talents, hopefully for a collective good!

      • Curious George

        economically dominating the whole of the Carpathian Basin
        @NBM – not going to happen anytime soon. If you want to dominate anything economically, it’ll have to be in services, which constitute more than 70-80% in most developed/developing economies. Even the Japanese dominance in manufacturing in the 80s was eroded by the Koreans, Chinese & others. In services, you have to understand that the customer is king, and he/she calls the shots. You have to suck up to them, and meet their needs, before you can even have any sort of influence. I’d say, you should first start on improving service standards in Hungary, before you start dreaming of gold.

  • seinean

    Yeah. Sure thing ;) :)
    Focus. Interesting results may appear if you focus hard and long enough.

    • Magyar

      Roman prost!

      • seinean

        Nu. Romanul “Dune” este destul de bun. Doar ca cam pueril.

  • Farkas László

    Hi sinean,

    About the issue of deception in business. I think it wrong to misrepresent anything pertaining to assets, debt, impending lawsuits, money, revenue and operations. Resorting to ethnic and blood solidarity to create a friendly bond, is fair game, especially if the other party agrees.

    PS: Find me some Sumerians who have something to trade, and I might just take you up on that!

    • seinean

      Get Orban to set-up a “Sumerian World Congress”. I’m sure “Sumerians” will pop-up to enjoy the Tokaji.

      • Farkas László

        Everyone is a “Sumerian” when good Tokaj is on offer!

      • Californicus

        Orban Tokaj-ani nag lugal!

  • seinean

    Sure thing. Or Finno-Ugric. Or “Turanic”.

    • Magyar

      Everyone is a Dacian when it comes to stuffing yourself with Mamaliga and claiming Erdély.

      • seinean

        You are the ones claming, boy. We simply own ( and inhabit) the province.

  • Farkas László

    I think some of the issues and debate here center around things that lie closer to home and not in the Urals.

    (Remember: a discovering geologist gets anywhere from 1/16 to 1/8 of the output of any new wildcat well. That can run into serious money depending on the size of the discovery!)

    • Ma Jar

      To Mr. Farkas Laszlo;
      Just a comment and I’m not awaiting an answer.
      Very interesting fact for I did not know norms were in practice (1/16 to 1/8). Alas, I was in the wrong profession but I do have a couple of school friends, geologists, and both abandonned the profession upon graduation. If I ever meet them again I will ask why did’nt they “stick to their guns” for it seems to be a very lucrative field!

      • Ma Jar

        Revision: Spelling correction – abandoned instead of abandonned.

      • justasking…

        @Ma Jar,

        ‘Very interesting fact for I did not know norms were in practice (1/16 to 1/8)’

        I wouldn’t go so far to say that this is the ‘norm’.

        Acknowledging and appreciating others experiences (love ya Laci)…in MY experience of 1) working directly in the Oil and Gas Industry in North America (as you can appreciate, business extends globally) and 2) marrying into an ‘Oil and Gas family’…the only Geologists, that I have ever heard of getting this kind of ‘cut’(1/16 to 1/8), are the Geologists who own the company and/or part owner of the company who owns said well. As a matter of fact, those are the only kind of truly ‘rich’ Geologists I know…unless of course they came from money.

        Yes, some Geologists can/will get (pending on the company) a large ‘at-ta boy cheque’ as a bonus, others recognition, while others a ‘mental note’ from the higher ups’. In my experience, the company usually takes the position of ‘that’s your job , that’s what we pay you for (extremely well), to help us find Oil and Gas’.

        I don’t know how much you know about the Oil and Gas Industry (no, I’m not trying to be patronizing, and apologize if it comes across that way); but, ‘wildcat wells’ ( strictly drilling for exploration, total gamble…’high point’ discovering oil/gas, ‘low point’ confirming the geology of the subsurface) are not a large % of an Oil companies investment/interest…what they call ‘production wells’(where the information is more thorough, probability of finds are more likely) are.

    • Anonymous

      László,

      This is typical silly Hungarian dreaming. Hungary’s future is Europe, not a bunch of poor tribes in Mother Russia.

      Hungary needs to be more integrated into Europe, but you are so afraid of drowning in the Sea of Western Culture that resort to Orbán’s illusion of a Third Way …

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