September 17th, 2012

Quotable: Antal Rogán and Gabriella Selmeczi on the civil initiative against domestic violence

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“Those people who are forcing this debate are not looking for real answers but are merely out to hog the limelight.”

Fidesz MPs Antal Rogán and Gabriella Selmeczi in a joint statement released last Tuesday reacting to a civil initiative to create a separate paragraph in the criminal code on domestic violence. The statement went on to say that Fidesz does not even agree with the use of "domestic violence" as a legal expression because it is "wrong" to mention the two notions together in any one law. Later that week Rogán said Fidesz "is bowing before the ladies' will" and would back the initiative." [Index.hu]
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  • Aloof

    See there are no shortage of Fidesz chauvinistic sexist assholes, what a surprise. Rogan is just another friggin’Fidesz scumbag sock puppet. The utter ARROGANCE of these cretins is astounding.
    Limelight? Fidesz would rather “discuss” this issue, which Hungary has a dismal record of REPORTED abuses never mind the unreported ones, in the middle of the night.

    These people make your skin crawl…

  • Anonymous

    I wonder what Mrs Orban would have to say on this issue!!

  • olga

    @ Anon

    Unless ” Mrs Viktor” was an expert in Family Law and Criminal Law, I don’t think her opinion should matter but if the translation is verbatim and correct, someone ought to speak to Rogan that “ladies” legal rights ought not be in the hand of dinosaurs like him

    Only legal experts would be able to explain how it would be in the best interest of assaulted women (sometimes men) to have a :

    (1) separate paragraph in the criminal code on domestic violence.

    (2) why Fidesz does not agree with the use of “domestic violence” as a legal expression

    (3) Why is it “wrong” to mention the two notions together in any one law

    Just criticizing without understanding the law doesn’t make much sense but whatever the legislation ends up to be, the most salient point is to enforce it so ” the ladies” know that domestic abuse will not be tolerated even if it’s just called “assault” and/or its variation depending on the circumstances

    • Anonymous

      But you have been defending Fidesz since day one …

    • Leto مؤدّب

      @olga:
      My understanding is that creating a separate paragraph in the criminal code on domestic violence is actually only a political issue because other paragraphs have already provided enough protection anyway.

      Certainly trying to calm the “vihar a biliben” (storm in the night pot) won’t work on the instigators, just look at these idiots here for example (Aloof and Observation), foaming at the mouth, they did this before and they’ll continue to do it in the same way.

      Ceterum censeo MSZP delendum est.

  • Observation

    Horthy, I’ll wager, never had a domestic violence law, and if that doesn’t explain FIDESZ’s position on this matter, it would come close. You have to keep in mind that this is the same crowd that wants to limit your freedom of speech, right to a free trial and steal the next election. Geez, isn’t it clear by now? VIKTOR wants to own the country.

  • David

    They are stealing the Rogan limelight. The man was born with a scissors in his hand. Christ, that man loves ribbons.

  • olga

    @ Anon

    I’ve never defended FIDESZ because I think the most important role for a Western political party these days is its economic policy and I make no secret about not understanding economic decisions. I do take the luke warm support for FIDESZ I described into consideration but I am hardly a “Family Values” type voter

    Doesn’t take rocket science to figure out what JOBBIK stands for nor that Gyurcsany and his cronies left the country in one big mess and his revolting grandstanding and presence are no help to the Left

    What I do find is that Orban’s actions on this website are “always wrong” by the anti-FIDESZ faction and no matter what the party does ,it’s always thumbs down

    This domestic violence issue is the perfect example; unless you really understand the ramifications of the existing law and the proposed law (I don’t and it’s not clear from the article ) you cannot comment so it’s gratuitous criticism for criticism’s sake.

    If you think the opinions on this website are objective and helpful for those of us who are interested in what’s going on in Hungary, then I suggest you read Eva Balog’s similarly “objective” blog

    Moreover, if I could understand Hungarian as well as I understand English I would not be getting my news from this website(give me 6 months living in Hungary in a place where no one speaks English but until then… )

    • sheesh

      I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about. I’d say about 90% of the news posted on this website comes pre-packaged by the heavily Fidesz-leaning state wire agency MTI. And still you consider them anti-government? You’ve lost it.

    • Anonymous

      All of Europe thinks that Hungary is wrong. No one believes that judges should be under the administrative control of the elected government nor do they believe government contracts should only go to Fidesz controlled companies.

      Checks and balances are the heart of modern democracy and this government has done everything it can to emasculate them.

      There are plenty of conservative governments in Europe, including Germany. But the German government is aware of Orbán’s autocratic tendencies.

  • olga

    @ Anon

    Let me make it really clear – if the Hungarian electorate voted for Gyurcsany again at the last election, I would be defending him because that’s the party the country chose and thank God they have the right my parents never had

    If it was a 2/3rd win for JOBBIK, I would advertise my BC and all relevant Hungarian citizenship documents on Craigslist or put them away until the party was defeated and knowing my own kids the way I do, they would not be renewing their passports if it came up for renewal.

    As far as Leto is concerned, if it wasn’t for him, I would never even read the \other side’s points of view\ nor would that luke warm FIDESZ support make sense – he brings all that into focus.

    Does not mean that I would not like to hit him over the head with a huge baseball bat made of foam when he starts about \fags\ – the foam would not hurt him and I’d feel better . Gotta keep his brain intact, he is really helful to me with the Hungarian language plus the FIDESZ perspective and it’s all about me of course :) )

  • olga

    @ Leto

    Do you know if Tesco sells foam baseball bats?

    re: “My understanding is that creating a separate paragraph in the criminal code on domestic violence is actually only a political issue because other paragraphs have already provided enough protection anyway”

    I did not want to drag Canadian laws into this because I often compare situations between Canada and Hungary and it’s for no other reason than I only understand Canadian laws and sometimes US laws, so I can’t compare legislation to other countries due to lack of knowledge. The big dofference between Canada and the US that Criminal laws in the US vary according to States whereas the Criminal Code of Canada is the same in all the Provinces

    I purposely read the Canadian Criminal Code on this subject and while we take domestic violence extrmely seriously do not have special domestic abuse clauses.

  • spectator

    While the equivalent Hungarian term for “családon belüli erőszak” is “domestic violence”, only the literal translation would shed a little light to that hypocrite statement above.
    So, the expression “családon belüli erőszak” literally means “violence within the family” – hence the “expert” don’t want violence associated with family on any way.

    Actually this is quite in line with the communication/brainwashing technique used by Fidesz: don’t mention any problems in the society, and simsalabim, there is no problems.

    One more thing: don’t even dream about it, that the guys in Fidesz really gave some consideration regarding the ladies demand and gave in, far from it.
    Took a few days to make calculations and analyze models, just how many voters would it cost to them if they ignore the ladies – that simple.

    • Leto مؤدّب

      “Actually this is quite in line with the communication/brainwashing technique used by Fidesz: don’t mention any problems in the society, and simsalabim, there is no problems.”

      :D :D

      Come on, do tell me how a more literal translation of “domestic violence” (e.g. “házi erőszak”*, “otthoni erőszak” or perhaps “háztartáson belüli erőszak”) would be out of line with “the communication/brainwashing technique used by Fidesz”

      :D :D

      * it sounds ridiculous but never mind… any other idea for another translation?

      Ceterum censeo MSZP delendum est.

      • Leto مؤدّب

        The Christian Democrats (KDNP) protested against the phrase ““családon belüli erőszak” because in their opinion the word “family” should not be associated with the word “violence”.
        It seems the terminology would change to “párkapcsolaton belüli erőszak”, that is “violence in a relationship”.

        -http://mno.hu/belfold/parkapcsolaton-beluli-eroszak-johet-a-szavazas-1105911

      • spectator

        Leto, you’ve managed to mix up things again.

        First of all, the translation is from Hungarian to English, not the other way around. Consequently your ignorant remark misfired as usual.

        What is in line with the Fidesz communication is a falsification of facts, using euphemism instead of real world words. In this case they proposed something like “violence between couples – or closely related people” instead the “violence within the family” – because the word “family” shouldn’t be connected with the word “violence”.
        If they don’t call it so, it isn’t there, isn’t it?

        • Leto مؤدّب

          To sum it up, Fidesz-KDNO doesn’t want to associate the word “family” with the word “violence”. As opposed to you who is very keen on making this association.

          Ceterum censeo MSZP delendum est.

          • spectator

            I keen on calling things as they are, you see, and I hate lies, euphemism and the kind – I’m not a Fidesz-KDNP supporter, obviously!

          • Leto مؤدّب

            Yeah, you’re a rotten postcommie bastard who hates concepts like family, nation, homeland, etc., obviously.

            Ceterum censeo MSZP delendum est.

  • Magyar حماس‎

    “If it was a 2/3rd win for JOBBIK, I would advertise my BC and all relevant Hungarian citizenship documents on Craigslist or put them away until the party was defeated and knowing my own kids the way I do, they would not be renewing their passports if it came up for renewal.
    ”

    Olga Olga Olga, this shows that you are not a true Hungarian.

    A Hungarian sticks to his country through thick and thin, if you are prepared to throw away your Hungarianess at the first sight of (what you think is) trouble, then good riddance and Canada can keep you!

    Leto did not throw his passport away when the MSZP were in power, even though he despises them, unlike you, who would prefer an MSZP government over Jobbik.

    “Let me make it really clear – if the Hungarian electorate voted for Gyurcsany again at the last election, I would be defending him because that’s the party the country chose and thank God they have the right my parents never had
    ”

    What will happen if I change your quote to this?

    “Let me make it really clear – if the Hungarian electorate voted for Jobbik in the next election election, I would be defending him because that’s the party the country chose and thank God they have the right my parents never had
    ”

    Oops? does Olga have double standards? I think so!

  • spectator

    “It seems the terminology would change to “párkapcsolaton belüli erőszak”, that is “violence in a relationship”.

    - Would it mean, that they giving a green light to hit your mother in law at will – she isn’t in a relationship with you, is she?

    Attention!Pun intended!
    Nevertheless…

  • Liz Aucoin

    it is amazing how many of you do not want SOMETHING to change in the law regarding domestic violence, family violence, violence against women, whatever you want to fucking call it, my god people! Maybe a little less concern for what it is called and more ideas on how to combat it. One in five women are affected and some years the statistics have shown one woman per week dieing in Hungary due to this violence! And Olga, if you don’t think the laws need to be tightened on it, then you need to give your head a shake too. It is obvious the current laws are not being enforced, or are not enough. And, whether the laws are changed or not, it all depends on enforcement of the laws whether they stick to the current laws on assault or make a special spot in the criminal code for it. I just find it so pathetic that so many Hungarian men and some women too, have no problem with a woman being abused, then you have government officials putting their ignorant two cents in with no care for the true issue. This also shows the breakdown of family values and I can see why more and more why so many Hungarians can be racist and sexist. They are stuck in the old ways and cannot change until their leaders change!

    • Anonymous

      I just find you and your dumb posts pathetic.

    • JA aka justasking

      @Liz,

      ‘it is amazing how many of you do not want SOMETHING to change in the law regarding domestic violence, family violence, violence against women, whatever you want to…’

      Well, that’s because some of us support the violence and prefer that it continues.

  • olga

    @ Magyar

    re : “Olga Olga Olga, this shows that you are not a true Hungarian. A Hungarian sticks to his country through thick and thin, if you are prepared to throw away your Hungarianess at the first sight of (what you think is) trouble, then good riddance and Canada can keep you! “

    I thought about what you wrote but I care deeply about Hungary including the majority of its people – if 2/3rd of the population supported a political party that I consider evil then I would have nothing in common with that majority and while I was kidding about selling my BC on Craigslist, I would not enter the country as long as JOBBIK was the choice of the majority.

    Luckily this is never going to happen so I am not losing sleep over it, nor do I think national mourning would follow my absence. However, I am not alone in my thinking and there are legions of Hungarians outside the borders who share my views and it would be totally counter productive to alienate these Hungarians who have always been proud of their country and its past achievements despite its people having to overcome so much adversity including Trianon.

    Back to FIDESZ , MSZP and every other party with various initials/acronyms . Since 1989, they all had various different platforms and the majority elected the leaders whose agendas they believed in – this is not about how these parties and/or their leaders actually performed once they came to power, it’s strictly about the party platforms and none of them were a “platform of hate and prejudice “ Then along came JOBBIK with its very own MG vigilantes, which btw was unheard of in other Democracies and everything changed

    Show me any Western main stream media supportive of your party . Do you actually believe that thousands of publications all over the Democratic world are wrong but a few Kuruc, Hungarian Ambiance type hate mongering rags are right ?

    Adding insult to injury you and other JOBBIK supporters have the audacity to say that people who don’t buy into this deranged form of perverted patriotism are “anti Hungarian “ What is anti-Hungarian is a fringe group that gives that beautiful and amazing country and the overwhelming majority of its people a bad name.

    • Magyar حماس‎

      “if 2/3rd of the population supported a political party that I consider evil then I would have nothing in common with that majority”

      Fidesz has a majority in parliament, but 2,706,292 Hungarians voted for Fidesz, which is actually a minority, given Hungary’s population, about 27% of the country.

      “I would not enter the country as long as JOBBIK was the choice of the majority”
      Why not? Scared? And what if they finally find a way to integrate gypsies, which they want, and put Hungary on a better path?
      Your planned boycott is rather immature and pathetic.

      ” it would be totally counter productive to alienate these Hungarians who have always been proud of their country”
      I think you will find it that only rotten postcommies would not want to enter a Jobbik run Hungary. Most Hungarians outside Hungary would either be happy, or simply indifferent.

      “it’s strictly about the party platforms and none of them were a “platform of hate and prejudice “ Then along came JOBBIK with its very own MG vigilantes, which btw was unheard of in other Democracies and everything changed”

      Jobbik does not have a platform of “hate and prejudice”, despite what your postcommie anti-Hungarian media tells you.
      And the MG is not a “vigilante”, they actually did many positive things, like repair memorials, and help with floods, which the government should have been doing.

      You are just so closed minded, ignorant and prejudiced that you cannot see otherwise.

  • olga

    @ Liz

    “re: ” And Olga, if you don’t think the laws need to be tightened on it, then you need to give your head a shake too. It is obvious the current laws are not being enforced, or are not enough.”

    I am not sure if you mean in Canada, Hungary or in both countries but either way, you area bringing up two issues 1. The Legislation itself and 2. Enforcement

    I trust you are lobbying the Canadian government to change its laws and make “domestic abuse” a crime of its own so you may also want to lobby for amending the Criminal Code to reinstate the term “rape” as well .

    I am ok for this horrific crime to be prosecuted as “sexual assault” and its variation but you seem to believe that adding more legal terms protect women and I don’t. Enforcement of the existing law, relentless prosecution and appropriate sentencing will protect women in Canada so I don’t know how adding clauses to the existing legislation will benefit women, but maybe you know something I don’t

    You mentioned you were a career woman – Have you ever worked in the wide spectrum of social services for women and children, within the Criminal Justice system or in a government policy dealing with domestic abuse issues either at the Federal or Provincial level? Just asking (not justasking)

  • Liz Aucoin

    Serious Olga this is getting old! First of all Canadian law already has the appropriate amendments and bills passed for domestic violence to be prosecuted effectively, maybe you should read the link I posted regarding this on one of the commentaries it has all of the bills and amendments spelled out for you. It is the Hungarian laws that need to be updated. Not sure how many times I have to say that new laws do not need to be created. My only point with regards to enforcement was simply stating that if enforcement is not taking place correctly no amount of changes will make much of a difference. Secondly, I have never suggested anything with regards to the terms used for sexual assault to be changed to rape, that just suggests you are trying to put words in my mouth. And lastly to answer you curiosity regarding my work with regards to this, I have worked as a volunteer case worker for the Elizabeth Frey society since1998 at a municipal women’s shelter. I have done this 2 days per week in two different communities that I have lived in. I have lobbied my provincial government for amendments such as anti stalking and domestic rape. What have you done Olga? What credentials do you have with regards to this? You are starting to sound like JA with twisting comments and what really bothers me is you don’t seem to truly understand what someone is saying, you try to bring in off topic suggestions to a) appear confused to get someone to say something you can jump on, and b)twist it into the current topic to suggest that is the persons stance on it. For example, you suggesting that I am going to lobby my government to have them change terms such as sexual assault to rape then suggesting that is my position. I am not saying that we always make ourselves perfectly clear, however, maybe reading a comment more than once can sometimes help that before arguing with someone.

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