September 19th, 2012

HírTV reporter taken to court on a leash after ducking libel charges

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Police took HírTV reporter Szabolcs Kisberk to a 19th District police station and later to the Second and Third District court on a leash after arresting him at his home at 5 a.m. Tuesday morning.

Police took the action because Kisberk had earlier failed to appear in court to face libel charges.

Proceedings were initiated against Kisberk by Viktor Tóth, a former campaign chief for Socialist MP János Veres.

Kisberk had accused Tóth of attempting to buy votes, in a report for which former broadcast media regulator the ORTT admonished HírTV.

Kisberk’s lawyer Barnabás Futó told HírTV that his client had not received the earlier summons.

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  • wolfi

    A black unmarked car at 5 am – where have I seen this before ?

    Oh, I remember: A Tanú …

    • Aloof

      Yeah they’re still really into that black car thang aren’t they? I guess just like ATV they don’t know where HIR TV is either.

  • Leto مؤدّب

    One can easily imagine the unearthly postcommie howling, reaching to the sky (but at least to New York and Paris), if this happened to a reporter of ATV or Klubrádió…

    Ceterum censeo MSZP delendum est.

    • Vidra

      As ORTT found Hír TV guilty as charged, the reporter was bound to be arrested. If an ATV or Klubrádió reporter were stupid enough to suggest that a Fidesz arsewipe had done something illegal without any concrete evidence then he should get what he deserves.

      • Leto مؤدّب

        I doubt very much you missed the point in my post.
        You obviously try to divert.

        Ceterum censeo MSZP delendum est.

        • Aloof

          You didn’t have any point, it was just more of your daily Fidesz ball sucking propaganda. Vidra was just pointing out reality.

          • Magyar حزب الله

            “The Jobbik politician pointed out that his party already submitted a draft-resolution in parliament in July, 2010 — following the Polish example — to cut former communist officials’ pension, but the proposal was voted down by the Fidesz government (which clearly shows that the government is controlled by behind the scene forces).”

            Fidesz shows its postcommie side.

          • Leto مؤدّب

            Oh, cut your crap, pathetic Yankee moron… I believe you didn’t understand what I wrote* but Vidra may be more intelligent than you.

            *That is the postcommie bastards and their propaganda machine would have cried like “you see Orbán’s Nazi henchmen arrested a champion of free press!” if the journalist had been a postcommie one.

            Ceterum censeo MSZP delendum est.

          • Vidra

            Correct Mr Aloof (though Fidesz Rent Boy accusing me of “obviously trying to divert” is a case of the pot calling the kettle black if ever I saw one.)

    • Aloof

      You’re a post commie, why don’t you tell us all about it?

      You were born a commie, raised a commie, educated as a commie all the way into your University years so when ’89 came around you became a post commie. Post a youtube thing so we can hear you whine like a little girl.

  • Observation

    A leash? That’s barbaric as well as mid evil. Police officers cannot control one person without resorting to humiliating restrains? I don’t care which side you’re on, this should turn your stomach.

    • JA aka justasking

      @Observation,

      ‘I don’t care which side you’re on, this should turn your stomach’

      You would think; but, obviously not, judging by the posts submitted so far.

  • Aloof

    @Magyar حزب الله says: September 19, 2012 at 4:32
    Fidesz shows its postcommie side.

    Hell Fidesz hasn’t even reached post commie yet, they’re still LOADED with card carrying commies, just look at Martonyi for christsakes.

    JOBBIK without doubt is the closest thing in Hungary that is removed from the commie/ post commie era. Too bad they’re revisionist anti-western, anti-minority, neo nazi, anti-semite, racist and facist whack jobs going in the wrong direction.

    • Magyar حزب الله

      I agree with everything you said until “Too bad….”

      • Magyar حزب الله

        “Too bad they’re revisionist anti-western, anti-minority, neo nazi, anti-semite, racist and facist whack jobs going in the wrong direction.”

        Following words are things that Jobbik are NOT:
        neo nazi
        anti-semite
        racist
        facist
        whack jobs
        anti-minority

        • Kavé

          Following words are things that Jobbik are:
          neo nazi
          anti-semite
          racist
          facist
          whack jobs
          anti-minority

          Note: WHACK JOBS!

          • Magyar

            Nice postcommie propaganda,moron.

  • olga

    Here we go –

    “Rendőrök vezették elő a Hír TV egyik riporterét kedden hajnalban, mert néhány hónapja nem jelent meg egy bírósági tárgyaláson ”

    He hasn’t shown up for court for months – his lawyer said he didn’t know about the court hearing – really?

    Once again I don’t know how these non-appearances work in Hungary but this is how it works here – if someone does not show up for a hearing, and the Court is not satisfied that the hearing came to the person’s attention, a Personal Service Summons” is issued – if still a no-show at the next hearing and the Court has a sworn document from the server (whatever that position is called in Hungary)that s/he served the Notice to Appear in Court was served as ordered and still no lawyer and/or Accused bother to appear, there is a warrant issued for the police to bring the Accused to court

    Last time I checked , the time to execute the warrant was at the police’s convenience and discretion , not when it was suitable for the Accused so 5 a.m. was convenient.

    How is it different in Hungary when there is a failure to appear for months?

    Now about the leash – are the pics available, because if it was like a dog leash around this guy’s neck, then we have a problem with human rights issues.

    • Leto مؤدّب

      @olga:

      The “leash” looks like this: -http://m.cdn.blog.hu/pe/petrocelli/image/zuschlagbilincs.jpg

      I myself cannot see anything wrong with the police procedure in this case. You have to go to court if you are summoned.

      However you can be absolutely sure this would be a huge “world-wide scandal”, yet another “end of freedom of press in Hungary”, if this journalist worked for, say, ATV, Klubrádió or Népszabadság, etc.

      Ceterum censeo MSZP delendum est.

  • olga

    @ Wolfi

    Further to my posting above:

    re: \A black unmarked car at 5 am – where have I seen this before ?\ – could it be Toronto? I don’t know what the cars look like when warrants are executed but I do know they can be any time of the day and if it’s at 5 a.m. because of logistics then the person is held in custody until her/his morning court appearance

    you have to start picking your battles, and this case ain’t one of them but maybe the \leash\ unless the leash turns out be \cruel and unusual punishment\ around the person’s neck

    Please confirm or deny but I heard from reliable sources that when an Accused in Germany refuses to be gracious enough to show his face in Court after proper procedures were followed, then in lieu of black Cars, balloons and and clowns are sent to the the Accused’s place at a mutually agreeable time and negotiate a convenient time for his court appearance including the time when he is taken into custody.

    • justasking

      @Olga,

      ‘Accused in Germany refuses to be gracious enough to show his face in Court..in lieu of black Cars, balloons and and clowns are sent to the the Accused’s place at a mutually agreeable time and negotiate a convenient time for his court appearance’

      :D :D :D

  • olga

    @ Leto

    I don’t see a leash – I see the word “bilincs” in the link you gave and I know my Hungarian is far from perfect but the word does not mean leash; I think it may mean hand-cuffs but not certain.

    I will not post my CV for Liz but amongst my many jobs, I worked in the court system for 5 years, and even if I did post my CV, it would be very difficult for people to understand what that work entailed because I was discussing the job spec with a Hungarian lawyer in BP who thought it was an “interesting programme” but non-existent and never heard of in Hungary

    So this particular story rang a bell because I was interviewing these guys who were picked up during the night in the exact same situations (ignoring court appearances when proof of service was a done deal) and they were held in custody in the basement of the court building in holding cells until their names were called after court started at 10 a.m. and it was up to the Judge to decide the next steps.

    I had less than zero sympathy when they started whining and wasting my time about the hardship and indignity of being picked up on a warrant but I did point out that perhaps they should have accepted that last ” Personally Delivered Invitation” to appear during business hours rather then being hauled during odd hours by the cops. Poor me ( life was tough)had to go to the cells first thing in the morning to get a report done by 10 when I came in half asleep at 9 but these interviews only happened a few times per month so I managed to survive :) )

    Back to FIDESZ – I don’t have any illusions and quite aware that some of the FIDESZ haters on this website know and understand Hungarian politics a hundred times better than me. Having said that, their grievances would be much more credible and “audible” if they picked their battles and didn’t bitch and moan about non-issues like this one which is a variation on the boy who cried wolf.

    There could be some really valid criticisms of FIDESZ but one needs to be a Hungarian political expert in the first place to understand the validity, so for the rest of us mortals unless I am the one and only non-expert, it’s very difficult to separate the the wheat from the chaff

    • DoubleH63

      @olga

      Don’t listen to Erik and his misleading translation – leash. Leash my ass!
      Listen even less to wolfi, the drunken Mischling – black car. Black car my ass!
      You should always ask some “uneducated”, “unemployed”, “skinhead” “neo-náci” Jobbik supporter to tell you what’s going on.
      As you can see in the links below; if you watch the first 20 seconds of the video of the first link, he was not even handcuffed (correctly in my opinion) when the police picked him up at his home at 5:00 AM. No black car either, only a simple police car.
      The picture in the second link shows the “leash”. In reality it’s a lead-chain, which is attached to the handcuffs and attached to the escorting police officer. That’s how the police escorted him into the courthouse from the police station (unnecessary action in my opinion, after all he is not Charles Manson!)

      [Btw, the court has options in Hungary if someone does not show up for a court date. Something similar what you have in Canada, giving the person a second chance to show up or they can have the police bring him in – seems like in his case the court decided on the later one.]

      -http://media.mandiner.hu/cikk/20120918_rendorok_vittek_el_ahirtv_riporteret

      -http://static6.origos.hu/i/0707/20070717birosag1.jpg

    • Leto مؤدّب

      @olga:

      The “lash” is “vezetőszíj”. That’s a leather strap or chain the hand-cuffed person is led by and it connects to the hand-cuff:
      -http://www.opont.hu/data/hirek/kepek/8027.jpg
      -http://www.rtlklub.hu/cache/leadimages/318973_1273587801_320x240.jpg

      ” it’s very difficult to separate the the wheat from the chaff”

      Yeah, you’d need a lot of background info. Somebody in politics saying something is almost never enough. You need to know who said it and why, what they said and did before, etc. See, for example, my remark on Aladár Horváth in the thread “Parliament backs domestic violence initiative in unanimous vote”.

      Ceterum censeo MSZP delendum est.

  • olga

    @ Double and Leto:

    re: You should always ask some “uneducated”, “unemployed”, “skinhead” “neo-náci” Jobbik supporter to tell you what’s going on. –

    Great suggestion. Can we take out he words “skinhead” “uneducated” “unemployed” and then I could simply ask you since we are “such good friends”?

    As far as giving people a second chance to come to Court before they are hauled in – never thought of it as a second chance. I thought it was about the Court having “proof of service” thus ex-parte orders and warrants

    About the “overkill” – It sure looks like it but again, I don’t know police procedures nor if the guy resisted arrest. I have seen rather “unfriendly people” tell the cops to go F.. themselves and other such enearments resulting in what I would describe as “overkill”

    I have only been in 5 court buildings in my life so I can’t compare court rooms even in my own city, but what stood out on the pics were the close proximity of the Accused and the Judge which surprised me but with cops and the restraint, I am sure the Judge felt pretty safe. (Only the MG would be more scary to me than those cops if they ever spotted my crystal ball or saw me eat soup with matza balls)

    I agree that Erik blew this story – credibility issues in the future I know what some people think about Eva B but I think she is brilliant and knows her facts and history Unfortunately I tune out because I no longer consider her credible and it’s one particular article that made me wake up and take notice and thus I withdrew from “the fan Club”

    Leto – back to that “domestic violence” and charge being specified or not in the Legislation . JA already wrote this in her own words, but whether the clause is in or out matters not, it’s not about feeling warm and fuzzy or FIDESZ bowing to pressur but know how woman (mostly women) and children would actually benefit and to understand that, we need to have a crash course by Hungarian lawyers, judges police etc

    The important issue for women is for the government to take “family violence” seriously regardless of semantics enforce the law to the full extent and the sentence when convicted does not become a rap on the knuckles

    • …justasking,

      @Olga,

      ‘Great suggestion. Can we take out he words “skinhead” “uneducated” “unemployed” and then I could simply ask you since we are “such good friends”?’

      SSSLAMMM!!! :D :D

  • DoubleH63

    @olga

    “I could simply ask you”

    Sure. I will answer if I know it.
    But even then you don’t seem to focus (too much coffee, not enough coffee, have to run, etc, etc…).
    If you did focus; you would not write in reply such blond things like: “if the guy resisted arrest”.
    You did not watch the video, did you? Did you even read my post?
    I guess you were too busy staring at your crystal ball in a daze, and could not wait to say something about the MG.

    About second chance: I said similar to Canada – not the same; focus olga, focus…

    [I see you left the neo-náci in about Jobbik supporters; that’s ok. I am sure you learned that from your Western mainstream truth-telling newspapers, just like your compatriot Liz. Besides, you are an expert on Jobbik… knowing their program, watching their speeches in Parliament, etc, etc. I am really surprised you have not read about the guy in prison for 18 months for wearing a red star in the Canadian papers. You should still support your Canadian kin on this one against the Hungarians who just feeding on BS.]

  • olga

    @ Double

    I knew you’d be a pal and let me ask you questions.

    Are you an exercise nut or just like jumping to conclusions?

    I did watch the video and have no sympathy for Szabolcs nor did I like the way it was presented. If you did not speak Hungarian, the announcers’ expressions and the tone implied they were reporting the national tragedy of the red sludge disaster, so give me a break.

    Here is the story I understand : “ Media employee refuses to acknowledge mailed notices to appear in court for months to avoid court dates and he refused to accept a personal service summons resulting being arrested 5 a.m. and hauled off to court with full media coverage – boo hoo, and me thinks it was planned for a specific media circus.

    Smells like a publicity stunt unless of course he thought the result of not accepting that personal service notice resulted in the Court’s dismissing charges. (Maybe he should have paid a real lawyer to explain the law – btw, was he the official MG lawyer as well?) Reminder: you offered to answer my questions.

    Regarding resisting arrest: I only saw him enter the police cruiser peacefully without the dreaded “leash” but I did not see what happened upon arrival so I simply meant that I don’t make judgment calls unless I know the whole story, ie: 1. did he give the cops a hard time upon arrival to make sure he is handcuffed ? 2. Is every accused handcuffed in the court room and if yes, is it because of the close proximity to the Judge?

    Strange how the “Victim” happened to be a reporter in the media business and just happened to have all his summonses undelivered, then refused the summons resulting in that 5 a.m. wake up call and of course he was the only Hungarian citizen who ever had to endure such injustice. Otherwise we would have heard about the “leash” in other cases.

    About “second chances” – how is it different in Hungary than in Canada,? Perhaps it’s all about altruism as opposed to the Canadian Courts’ wanting to be certain the hearing came to the Accused’s attention before a warrant was issued. You must elaborate and not just tell me to focus especially since you are such a focused individual with a one track narrow political agenda. Perhaps you were a Penguin in your previous life, all black and white.

    Regarding my “compatriot Liz “ – yeah , I am surprised you can differentiate between our postings because we all know that people with similar backgrounds are totally interchangeable but luckily we post under different names

    I don’t know much about the JOBBIK programs nor am I interested in them and since you know the reasons, so I I shall not repeat them.

    What I am interested is they guy in prison wearing a red star – will try to find the story

  • olga

    @ Double

    Ok, you have a point – can’t focus in the morning and did repeat myself… ( started to answer last night and finished in the morning so it looks like I had this website opened since Midnight, reading everyone’s peals of wisdom)

    • Magyar

      Olga, have you ever bothered to read about Jobbik policies right from the source, rather than getting brainwashed by 2nd hand postcommie sources?

  • olga

    @ Magyar

    I posted this a long time ago but when I first heard about JOBBIK on this website, I loved the “Jobb Jovot” slogan and the fact KM was involved because I read about her in 2005 championing Human Rights issues.

    To make this quick and to the point – It took me 15 minutes or so to find out that JOBBIK stood for everything I opposed and IMHO , the once admired KM has become a raving lunatic and a crude one at that.

  • Magyar

    “It took me 15 minutes or so to find out that JOBBIK stood for everything I opposed”

    Népszabadság?

  • olga

    @ Magyar

    No, it was JOBBIK.com

    Just for you I went to the website to look for something concrete without staying on that site too long to find a reason to disregard Vona, the poor “victim” of the evil media – just a short copy and paste

    “On the day of the 2010 Hungarian parliamentary elections, if you made a Google News search using the term “Jobbik” you found approximately 200 articles that mentioned the Movement for a Better Hungary, internationally. It took some time to read them all, but when you did, you discovered that they each had a common feature; and it might not be the one you think.

    Not a single article, without exception, quoted even a solitary sentence of the Jobbik manifesto. Either the English language version which the press had two months to scrutinize, available here, or the Hungarian original published three months prior to the polls. Not a sentence, not a phrase, not a word. Not one. ”

    How unfair and how shocking – the evil main stream media people read 15 minutes about the party’s activities and went no further.

    I am sticking my neck out here because I did not look into the Dutch Party someone mentioned that advocated
    pedophilia and then the party disappeared but let’s say t such a party existed and it confirmed the accusation; as soon as I did read that, I would not read further so I might have missed some great ideas about saving the environment because I would have no interest in anything they had to say after the child abuse issues.

    I trust you get my point that I do NOT accuse JOBBIK of advocating pedophilia, however I can never predict how words can be twisted around here. I am simply trying to demonstrate that I don’t need to know ,and I seem to be in good company, about a party’s FULL agenda once figure out quickly that it has revolting ideas

    • Magyar

      So you hear some rumour about Jobbik, and you chose to believe it, rather than let Jobbik defend itself.

  • olga

    @ Magyar

    Did not realize JOBBIK.COM was a rumour. Wish it were

    • Magyar

      What exactly did you see on there that you didn’t like?

    • Magyar

      Olga, if you want my honest opinion of Jobbik…

      Jobbik’s ideology is the best out of the current parties in Hungary.

      However that doesn’t mean Jobbik has the best ideology.
      There are many points which I don’t agree with.

      I am more inclined to this

      -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szeged_Idea
      -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_Hungarian_Life

      Jobbiks ideas are still too moderate.
      And I am not talking about “racism”, but mainly economics, culture,Trianon…

      If the MÉP was revived, Hungary would be a regional economic power in say, 5-10 years, maybe even less.

      • seinean

        A “moderate fascism”. An oxymoron…

        • Magyar

          Fidesz is more fascist than Jobbik.

  • olga

    @ Magyar

    re: ‘And I am not talking about “racism”, but mainly economics, culture,Trianon…”

    I cannot separate racism and the rest of the agenda, that’s why I previously gave the example about this supposedly Dutch political party in a previous post.

    About the video you recommended a day or so ago showing the JOBBIK supporting University kids – you mentioned you were an engineer but you did not write if you graduated from a Hungarian University nor your exact age, so you could be a recent graduate much younger than my 31 year old son.

    I was wondering if you have been unable to find a job which is a growing problem for recent grads here as well. I don’t have recent Univ. grad kids but my friends do, and some of these grads are unemployed and forced to live at home until they find work so they can afford to move out. There are plenty of newspaper and magazine articles written half in jest about the parents who thought they waived good-bye to children once they left for University , now finding themselves living with the “kids” again.

    The difference is the Canadian kids I know and referring to don’t blame minorities, they blame the economy and the 65 year olds who are not willing to retire and give chances for the younger generation to take over and I totally agree with both “blames”

    • Magyar

      “I cannot separate racism and the rest of the agenda, that’s why I previously gave the example about this supposedly Dutch political party in a previous post.”
      I will just say this, if you read the actual Jobbik policies, you would know that there is no discrimination or racism there.

      You know very well what a moderate right demokrat such as myself thinks of racism (I have spoken about racism before), however, if the Nemzeti Egység Pártja existed today, I would join it straight away and put my membership card on my wall with pride, for all to see.

      Well, I got a degree in it, but there was a lack of work.

      There were also family issues, my relatives who run the Pálinka distillery are getting a bit old, and needed some help. So I decided to sacrifice my personal plans and came to the rescue.

      I didn’t want to stay in Slovakia at the time, but life doesnt always work out as planned.
      I despise the fact that I am only a few km away from Hungary

  • olga

    @ Magyar

    re: “There were also family issues, my relatives who run the Pálinka distillery are getting a bit old, and needed some help. So I decided to sacrifice my personal plans and came to the rescue.”

    Damn it, I could really learn to like and admire you if only you weren’t such a bloody racist JOBBIK disciple :) )

    • Magyar

      If it helps, when I wasn’t interested in politics, I was quite moderate (although I still had my own, but moderate opinions of gypsies).
      I was not a, what some call a “racist” at the time, but I did think of some gypsies as stinky.

      However, when I became interested in politics, history, I hopped onto my tractor and drove to the right :D

  • olga

    @ Magyar

    We have something in common with a sligh variation:

    If it helps, when I wasn’t interested in politics, I was quite moderate

    However, when I became interested in politics, history nd subsequently worked with the disadvantaged for approx. 20 years (until what we call in the business and I got “burnt out”) I started out veering my car way over to the Left, practically drove into the ditch but then straightened it out to the Moderate Left where it’s safe

    I sometimes turn slightly to the Right but being “one sided” means the person has blinders on and they restrict one’s vision

  • ..Magyar

    Olga, ever thought about going to Hungary and live there?

    Personally, I would definitely move there under a Jobbik government.
    I would then try to become a rendőr, so I could combat gypsy crime. Or maybe join Gárda, if it gets a similar role as the Királyi Csendőrség.

    And before you say \Sorry Magyar, never going to happen\, a certain other party started out with 2.6% in 1924, then 18.25% in 1930, and then it increased and increased :D
    Care to guess who I am talking about?

    • ..Magyar

      sorry, 1928, not 1924.

  • Curious George

    Oh great! Politics.hu alumni, Cinead, has already given us a vivid picture of what the Rendorseg was like, and the various problems he faced in training and educating them to try to bring them up to modern policing standards. Hungary’s police already has a huge credibility problem among the population. The last thing Hungary & the Rendorseg needs is for a palinka-fueled, mentally ill, Slovak citizen wanting to come and recreate his 1930s alternate world within Hungary. Not only that, he wants to be legally armed to freely patrol the streets in uniform, and harass and threaten gypsies & other stereotypes whom he deems responsible for Hungary’s decline.
    If anyone thinks this is far-fetched, you only need to look at the educated, but deranged Baruch Goldstein who supported extremist J@wish organizations, moved to I@rael, and after he was given a uniform and weapon, used them to slaughter innocent civilians.

    Hungary has already too many untreated mentally-ill people, and doesn’t need to import more from Slovakia or anywhere else.

    • Magyar

      I agree it should be reformed!

      Just look at this!
      -https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/574831_391799544184780_1876427150_n.jpg

      \he wants to be legally armed to freely patrol the streets in uniform\

      Just like this?
      -http://www.csendor.com/muzeum/keptar/Festmenyek-rajzok/images/rajz__drawing_11.jpg

      • Magyar

        The Hungarian Gendarmerie, known as the Csendőrség, was responsible for the public safety and the maintenance of law and order in rural Hungary from its formation in 1881 until its dissolution at the end of WWII.

        The Csendőrség was a small force of about 11,000 enlisted men and officers, which was increased to 22,000 during the course of the Second World War to meet the needs of the reclaimed territories and to help reinforce the heavy losses sustained by the regular army (Honvédség). Whether in peacetime or in wartime, the Csendőrs fulfilled their duties according to their motto, “Híven, Becsülettel, Vitézül” (faithfully, honorably, valiantly).

        The Csendőrség was dispersed throughout Hungary in small garrisons of 5 to 15 men with one non-commissioned officer in charge. The Hungarian Royal Gendarmerie achieved international recognition for their exceptional effectiveness in crime prevention and investigation.
        They solved over 90% of petty thefts and small crimes, while nearly 100% of the major ones. For them, “cold cases” did not exist. This allowed Hungary to achieve a previously unprecedented national development lifting the previously feudal Hungary to a European level. Delegations from other countries visited to learn from them.

        With the end of WWII, the newly formed Hungarian communist government decreed the break-up of the csendőrség and declared all csendőrs, past and present, to be war criminals. Those csendőrs who fell within the sphere of communist control were persecuted, imprisoned, tortured by the ÁVO (secret police) and many were beaten to death or executed. It was only after 1989, with the fall of the communist regime, that any credit was given to the significant law-enforcement contribution of the csendőrs. In spite of this, the csendőr name still evokes negative emotions in many as a result of 45 years of anti-csendőr propaganda on the part of the communist government.

        More about it here
        -http://www.csendor.com/site/MKCsBK-a.pdf (It is a good read)

        Anyone who opposes it is a moron.

    • Curious George

      @Wolfi – In a modern army, where there is a responsible command structure, one learns to try and identify dangerous soldiers. These are usually aggressive individuals who feel a sense of victimization or who carry a grudge. These people get a sense of empowerment by wearing a uniform, carrying a weapon, and being legally authorized to act in a way which the average citizen cannot. Maygar meets all these definitions, and would ring many alarm bells if he were in my, or any modern army unit.

      He does not want to move or contribute to Hungary as an engineer for which he has been trained. His primary intention in being a policeman is not to stop corruption, catch bank robbers or rapists, or to prevent the hundreds of types of crimes being committed, but thinks the uniform allows him to go after whomever he wrongly stereotypes as responsible for crime in Hungary. Even if he doesn’t make it as a policeman, he openly states he wants to join the Garda, an illegal organization, to be able to go after gypsies, and whichever enemy Jobbik campaigns against.

      Jobbik’s brand of politics is dangerous because it legitimizes and promotes the sort of thinking Maygar has, by singularly targeting a group of people, and creating an outlawed organization to develop and cultivate its support among the ignorant, mentally ill & thuggish aggressive types. The Csendorseg* often referred to, did not have the sort of societal responsibilities and command structure that a modern police force has, or is accountable to. It was rightfully disbanded when it saw its last days after a period of repression & national breakdown where Hungary ended up being a loser once again militarily, politically and economically. A modern police force with educated, socially responsible and conscientious individuals would make the uneducated, often biased & politically corrupt Csendorseg look outdated, and possibly even primitive in comparison.

      This discussion is not about the Csendorseg, but about the mentally ill Gaymar and the racist, outdated, and illogical views he brings to these discussions. That, however, is miniscule compared to the real social degradation and possible danger Gaymar poses to Hungary should he decide to move here. I have always encouraged overseas Hungarians (even those I disagreed with) to move to Hungary and contribute to it. This is the first time I have felt that a Hungarian would be contributing negatively, and should be prevented from moving here. I know that is not possible, but I hope that some Hungarians here see that not all Hungarians have positive things to contribute, and will begin to speak out where necessary.

      • Magyar

        “He does not want to move or contribute to Hungary as an engineer for which he has been trained.”
        I do want to, but there are other issues, which I mentioned a few posts above.

        “His primary intention in being a policeman is not to stop corruption, catch bank robbers or rapists, or to prevent the hundreds of types of crimes being committed, but thinks the uniform allows him to go after whomever he wrongly stereotypes as responsible for crime in Hungary.”
        Wrong, I DO want to prevent crime.

        “to be able to go after gypsies, and whichever enemy Jobbik campaigns against.”
        No, but to prevent petty crime, which is very common in rural areas. The criminals so happen to be Gypsies.

        “The Csendorseg* often referred to, did not have the sort of societal responsibilities and command structure that a modern police force has, or is accountable to. It was rightfully disbanded when it saw its last days after a period of repression & national breakdown where Hungary ended up being a loser once again militarily, politically and economically. A modern police force with educated, socially responsible and conscientious individuals would make the uneducated, often biased & politically corrupt Csendorseg look outdated, and possibly even primitive in comparison.”
        It was superior to the police force we have now. Those men deserve nothing but utmost respect!!

        “This is the first time I have felt that a Hungarian would be contributing negatively,”
        How exactly would I be contributing negatively???

        • Magyar

          I simply believe that law and order is necessary for Hungary to become a prosperous and safe society. Being from a rural area, I know what these petty crimes look like, and the police was always too far away to help.

          “The csendor garrison commander in our village was an imposing figure. He radiated
          authority and seriousness. No one ever heard him use profanity or raise his voice in a crude
          manner. One day my mother sent me to the csendor garrison with a basket full of newly washed
          linen, because our laundry-women also washed linen for the garrison. It was on this occasion that
          I witnessed the following episode

          The csendors had just brought in a rowdy drunken young man from a bar. The garrison
          commander, as an introduction, gave the young man two powerful slaps across the face. The
          young man suddenly changed from being rowdy and began to sob as a child. The garrison
          commander then had the young man sit down, and he sat down beside him and started talking to
          him cordially as like a father to a son. He encouraged the young man to behave properly as
          should a man of responsibility. He told him he should bring joy to his parents and earn the
          village’s honor and respect. The young man listened intently and then gratefully and respectfully
          bid good-by. There were no further incidents and the young man became an upstanding citizen.

          After the war I happened to meet this young man again who told me about his drunken
          incident and the slap. He was very grateful for the good advice he received from the garrison
          commander because it was for this reason that he had became a respectable person.”

          -
          http://csendor.com/konyvtar/irasok/english/Gendarme%20Slap%20-%20Kocsor%20S.pdf

          The Gendarmarie should be brought back, along with Levente, and other things.

  • wolfi

    What Gaymar doesn’t mention:

    In the summer of 1941 the Gendarmerie participated in the roundup of Jews
    that resulted in massacres in Kamenets-Podolski by the Einsatzgruppen. It
    was also involved in the murder in February 1942 of 3,300 Serbs and Jews in
    the Novi-Sad area. After the Germans occupied Hungary in March 1944, the
    Gendarmerie was charged with putting the Jews in ghettos and then deporting
    them to extermination camps. Special Gendarmerie investigative units,
    located in the larger ghettos, were in charge of confiscating Jewish property.
    They set up a “mint” in each of the ghettos, where Jews were tortured into
    revealing where they had hidden their supposed valuables. The Gendarmerie
    men were so cruel in their treatment of Hungary’s Jews that even some Nazis
    were shocked at their barbarity.

    -http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdfMicrosoft%20Word%20-%206245.pdf

  • wolfi

    I’m trying again:

    What Gaymar doesn’t mention:

    In the summer of 1941 the Gendarmerie participated in the roundup of Jws
    that resulted in massacres in Kamenets-Podolski by the Einsatzgruppen. It
    was also involved in the murder in February 1942 of 3,300 Serbs and Jws in
    the Novi-Sad area. After the Germans occupied Hungary in March 1944, the
    Gendarmerie was charged with putting the Jws in ghettos and then deporting
    them to extermination camps. Special Gendarmerie investigative units,
    located in the larger ghettos, were in charge of confiscating Jwish property.
    They set up a “mint” in each of the ghettos, where Jes were tortured into
    revealing where they had hidden their supposed valuables. The Gendarmerie
    men were so cruel in their treatment of Hungary’s Jws that even some Nzis
    were shocked at their barbarity.

    -http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdfMicrosoft%20Word%20-%206245.pdf

    • Magyar

      Wrong wrong wrong.

      What actually happened.
      -http://csendor.com/site/zsidosag-a.pdf

    • Magyar

      Wrong wrong wrong.

      What actually happened.
      -http://csendor.com/site/z*idosag-a.pdf

      Replace the * with s

  • wolfi

    Wiki says:
    “Die k.u. Gendarmerie war am Ende des Zweiten Weltkriegs an der Deportation der ungarischen Juden beteiligt. Sie wurde 1945 aufgelöst.”
    -http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/K.u._Gendarmerie

    PS: captcha for this is r-scum, how fitting!

    • Magyar

      Most of the stuff on wiki is postcommie propaganda.
      I suggest you read the link I sent you.

  • Magyar

    My post is in moderation, but I will just say this.
    The current police is not good enough.

    Most villages do not have a police, and it is several km away.

    Another thing, most crimes in villages, apart from the usual Gypsy rapes are petty crimes (sometimes Gypsy, sometimes not).

    The police has no interest in helping people who are having their crops stolen, their cow stolen, their window smashed at night.

    These things, despite appearing as “petty” to the modern police, can negatively affect someones life.

    This is what the Gárda is for, it is not perfect, but it is the next best thing to the Csendőrség.

    If there was a garrison in ever village, even maybe 2-3 gendarmes, the majority of the population, (especially the women and elderly), even gypsy population would feel much safer, knowing that the nice, kind, knowledgeable Csendőr bácsi is willing to help them and protect them.

    There is no “evil” behind this, only a lawful society.
    so what is the problem?

    • Magyar

      Here is an example of a Csendőr at work:

      “The csendor garrison commander in our village was an imposing figure. He radiated
      authority and seriousness. No one ever heard him use profanity or raise his voice in a crude
      manner. One day my mother sent me to the csendor garrison with a basket full of newly washed
      linen, because our laundry-women also washed linen for the garrison. It was on this occasion that
      I witnessed the following episode

      The csendors had just brought in a rowdy drunken young man from a bar. The garrison
      commander, as an introduction, gave the young man two powerful slaps across the face. The
      young man suddenly changed from being rowdy and began to sob as a child. The garrison
      commander then had the young man sit down, and he sat down beside him and started talking to
      him cordially as like a father to a son. He encouraged the young man to behave properly as
      should a man of responsibility. He told him he should bring joy to his parents and earn the
      village’s honor and respect. The young man listened intently and then gratefully and respectfully
      bid good-by. There were no further incidents and the young man became an upstanding citizen.

      After the war I happened to meet this young man again who told me about his drunken
      incident and the slap. He was very grateful for the good advice he received from the garrison
      commander because it was for this reason that he had became a respectable person.”

  • olga

    @ Magyar

    Few things

    When I wrote I could learn to like you subject to certain conditions it was your posting about taking your family’s interest over your own. (kind of like “if my Grandmother had wheels principle” in your case)

    I will never live in Hungary because there is no place in the word I would want to live in that puts an ocean between my and my family and it would not be in their best interest for me to leave.

    Hard as I tried, I couldn’t come up with the name of the political party you were referring to that had such an escalating success starting with 1928 so I need more clues.

    1. Did JOBBIK copy that party platform because they not only admired its growing support but realized they had identical ideologies?

    2. How successful was that party in the long run and would you like Hungary to end up the way that country did
    after said party ceased to be in power?

    Now back to the Internet trying to figure out out what political party you had in mind – I love challenges.

    • …Magyar

      1)
      Jobbik does not have an identical platform to the said party. Far from it.
      They even condemn it, and parties similar to it.

      2) It was pretty succesfull until Europe declared war on it, which was not the said party’s fault.

      Ps. I like your subtle sarcasm ;) ;)

      Pss, could you give us your insight on the Csendőrség, especially my post at 5:19 pm?

  • Curious George

    @Gaymar – I do not want to get into a debate with a person who is mentally ill and living in a different world from us. My post to Wolfi, and all other sane posters here was about you – not about the Csendorseg nor its primitive methods of disciplining or keeping order within a peasant population.
    Please direct your comments to other posters if you think they are interested. Right now, there is nothing you can say which would make me think your thoughts are worth my time.

    • Not Magyar

      Monkey, your thoughts matter to me as much as the thoughts of a monkey who was let out from his cage.

      If you dont like my opinions, or they are \not worth your time\, then dont reply.
      I am trying to have a conversation with Olga, who unlike you, is actually a decent person, for a liberal anyway, and it would be a lot nicer if you stopped butting in with your provocations and anti-Hungarian trolling.

      Actually, I Bet (yeah I said I bet, what are you going to do about it?) that if I changed my name, and posted the same thing, you would reply to my posts in a normal manner, but simply your personal bias against me stops you from doing that.

  • wolfi

    @CG:

    I’m not a military man, but I fully agree with your statement (saw it just this minute, I’m not looking in here constantly).

    This story reminds me of someone I knew in Germany who also wanted to join the “Voluntary Police” that we have in parts of Germany (those who can read German may look here: -http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiwilliger_Polizeidienst) but was not accepted, maybe because of the character problems that you describe …

    I think talking to “Maygar” for just a few seconds would let anybody’s alarm bells ring!

    PS:

    I’m happy to say that our new Schwab local government (Green-Red coalition – the first in Germany!) has decided to get rid of these “Möchtegern” (wannabe) policemen.

    • ..Magyar..

      “I think talking to “Maygar” for just a few seconds would let anybody’s alarm bells ring!”

      Maybe in Germany or the Netherlands, but my views are not really that uncommon in Hungary. If you think I am the only one, you are mistaken and in denial.

      Despite what Monkey thinks, I am a normal, sane and rational person, unlike you, the hippie assholes.
      You would be pleasantly surprised if you met me.

      “I’m happy to say that our new Schwab local government (Green-Red coalition – the first in Germany!) has decided to get rid of these “Möchtegern” (wannabe) policemen.”
      The government also banned the Gárda, and they have not been seen anywhere since ;)

    • Curious George

      @Wolfi – read the link you provided. We also used to have a type of volunteer police. Our volunteer police was typically very well educated (doctors, teachers, lawyers, engineers, managers etc) who mainly patrolled housing estates on foot or bicycle, or doing community type policing or liaising with citizens. They carried no firearms, but had a baton, and had the power to arrest anyone, even when they were not in uniform. They worked under the supervision of the regular policemen. We got rid of this several years ago in favor of full-time police officers. I don’t think it was because they were ineffective, but rather the HR issues were too difficult to administer well (because they were unarmed, they always worked in groups of 4, and modern day work schedules are rather difficult to accommodate everyone always being available at the same time).

  • ..Magyar..

    All I need to say is that Gergely Pongrátz was one of the founders of Jobbik.
    If anyone knows more about disgusting commies and postcommies, it is him.

    That should be enough.

  • olga

    @ Magyar

    About the Kiralyi Csendorseg – never heard the expression but not hard to figure out – police force during the Monarchy

    You almost convinced me of its merit : “One day my mother sent me to the csendor garrison with a basket full of newly washed linen, because our laundry-women also washed linen for the garrison.” – I only wish I lived during those years so I could do the laundry

    Let me answer indirectly what I think of the MG as a police substitute. We have a very serious shortage of doctors in Northern Ontario – so far I have not seen ads for witch doctors nor anyone suggesting them as an alternative

    Our Community Police are part of the “real police” not specially trained amateurs. I’ve only seen them in news clips and since they were filmed in the summer, I saw them wearing black walking shorts instead of black pants and they were on bikes with helmets either off the bikes talking to people sometimes biking with them etc.

    Visible minority cops were well represented just like all skin colours are well represented here and I know the Police goes out of its way to attract visible minorities to make them more credible and approachable to their own people. In Hungary’s case, that would be a no brainer since there is only one visible minority in the villages that I know of.

    There is also very stringent psychological testing before police are hired but of course bad apples and police brutality are not strange concepts to any police force. If I were on an interview committee, red flags would be raised why a candidate with a Masters in Engineering would want to become a policeman.

    What every country needs is a properly trained police force paid proper wages to attract suitable candidates and there is no other answer.

    • Magyar

      Sigh. Olga Olga Olga.

      I do not want to replace the police.
      BUT, the current police is not suitable for dealing with crime in rural areas.

      Let me give you an example. One time, some gypsies stole someones sheep. He went to the police, they ignored him off course, since to them that is not important.

      This “Rural Police”, what I am proposing would investigation things like who stole whose sheep, who stole whose crops, etc etc. Things the current Police does NOT and does not want to do.

      I know elderly women, probably about your age, who are too scared to go out in the evening, in case the gypsies get them.

      If the “Rural police” patrolled the village, people would feel safer, and the very presence of them there would cut down on a large number of gypsies trying to do gypsy crime.

      The MG as it currently is is not good enough, however, if it ever becomes an official state organisation, with proper training on how to spot a gypsy who is about to steal Olga néni’s sack of potatoes in her basement, it could be a welcomed addition to rural life.
      But since you never lived in rural Central Europe, while I have, I wonder whose opinion is more credible on this :D

      This organisation with be ideologically driven, for people who CARE and WANT to prevent crime, and make life more tolerable for people.

  • Viking

    Police took HírTV reporter Szabolcs Kisberk to a 19th District police station and later to the Second and Third District court on a leash after arresting him at his home at 5 a.m. Tuesday morning
    —

    Anyone who watches Hungarian State TV can see these ‘perp walks’, which is an US expression for the process the local sheriff office do to humiliate the person going up to court

    I have even seen it live, when one repeat offender (car thief) in the mid-90s had his trial and he had admittedly stolen (or the Police forced him to ‘admit’ that to make their stats better?), one of my wife’s cars

    A simple car thief and during the transport being tied up on a leash, in handcuffs

    In more civilized countries like Sweden any restraints, like handcuffs can only be applied in certain circumstances and are counted as legal violence, similar to brandishing a gun and must be followed by a statement by the Police Officers involved. Such circumstances are typically as history of violence, like resisting arrest, where there can be judged a risk for repetition can occur, or risk for attempted escape

    To think that a simple or not so simple person, journalist or not, would fall into any of these categories and any restraints or any other form of legal violence would be necessary in a case like this, sounds rather strange
    But this is Hungary, so not so many rights apply to the individual

    It is of course a bit ironic that it happened to such a pro-Fidesz journalists, but I think we all can rest assured that the Officers involved will be severely punished the next promotions that are up, because you do just treat any of the Untouchables like any common criminal

    One can compare this normal Hungarian practice to the reaction the Stockholm Police got after, on 30 January 1976, while rehearsing August Strindberg’s Dance of Death at the Royal Dramatic Theatre in Stockholm, Ingmar Bergman was arrested by two plainclothes police officers and charged with income tax evasion. The impact of the event on Bergman was devastating. He suffered a nervous break-down as a result of the humiliation and was hospitalized in a state of deep depression.

    On 23 March 1976, the special prosecutor Anders Nordenadler dropped the charges against Bergman, saying that the alleged crime had no legal basis, saying it would be like bringing “charges against a person who has stolen his own car, thinking it was someone else’s”

    If this case is all about a clerical error, I would assume under current Hungarian laws, the arrested and humiliated journalist would get no correction or damages paid, as he would got in Sweden

  • olga

    @ Viking

    May I call you Eva B because you are sounding more and more like her.

    On the other hand, maybe I am just bitter realizing I live in a police state instead of Utopian countries like Germany and Sweden where police have social work degrees and are kind and considerate keeping their “clients’ ” interest in mind at all times.

    I know only too well that police brutality exists and I also know how helpless people are at their mercy and I even know that not “all skin colours are equal” amongst the police including in Canada where political correctness knows no bounds.

    Now I have to run and dry my tears about the sad story of the poor victimized Hir Tv reporter – btw you are bringing in other examples that most people don’t know about and irrelevant to this particular incident but if this fiasco was supposed to highlight unfair police practices than whoever picked this case made a very poor judgement call

    re: “If this case is all about a clerical error, I would assume under current Hungarian laws ” you obviously don’t know the details so ask your wife to watch that Hungarian language video that Double posted and have her translate it including what his lawyer said.

    “Leash” ? – give me a break or better yet, give the real victims a break

  • olga neni

    @ Magyar

    read my analogy about the lack of doctors in Northern Ontario and replacing them with witch doctors.

    re; ‘ “I know elderly women, probably about your age, ”

    OMG – 6 face lifts at Telki Hospital, I can hardly move my facial muscles from surgery and botox and still elderly? How old does one have to be to meet the criteria? I’ll have you know a blind man thought I looked 25 which should be your age

    Oh, I just watched the greatest video from my favourite political comedian Jon Stewart (September 19, re the Romney secret recording) and he referred to FOX news media as BULLS%&$T Mountain – know of any media sources that you love that could be referred to like that and would you mind translating that phrase to Hungarian? Second word would be “hegy” but don’t know the first. Could also ask JA – she’d know for sure

  • Viking

    olga says:
    September 24, 2012 at 3:42 pm

    May I call you Eva B because you are sounding more and more like her
    —

    What you want to call me is irrelevant for what you claim is wrong in the quoted text:

    ” Viking says:
    September 24, 2012 at 2:52 pm

    Police took HírTV reporter Szabolcs Kisberk to a 19th District police station and later to the Second and Third District court on a leash after arresting him at his home at 5 a.m. Tuesday morning
    —”

    So, what was wrong there?
    He was on a leash into, during and out of the court-room, then that is standard in Hungary

    And that is what I was trying to discuss, a person who has no record of being violent or threatening (if not being a journalist is counted as that…?), is ‘dragged’ into Court on a leash
    It is what it is, whatever you want to call that thingie. You maybe have some other words for it in the Canadian courts?
    But is the word interesting?

    This specific case does not interest me directly, but I used it to mention that this leash-thing is a normal thing in Hungarian Courts and if you feel happy with it, maybe we can try to get you one for next trip to Hungary?

    * The Fidesz-controlled Hungarian State News Agency MTI lies to us using tax payers money*

  • olga

    @ Viking

    re: \Szabolcs Kisberk to a 19th District police station and later to the Second and Third District court on a leash \

    Leto wrote that it was “vezetoszij” some type of a leather strap or a chain attached to the handcuffs and held by the police.

    When I read the story I automatically thought of horrific human rights violation because somehow the arrested person’s neck was involved and that was misleading.

    So what is a \leash\ to you and what was so objectionable?

    If you are worried about tax payers’ monies, add up the court costs including the police escort expenses involved for executing a warrant because he chose to ignore summonses.

    Next time I come to Hungary get arrested and brought to court in similar circumstances I shall not complain because it was my decision to ignore the law. I trust I can count on you to bring me coffee because waiting from 5 a.m. to 10.m. without a copious amount of caffeine would be cruel and unusual punishment.

    • Viking

      olga says:
      September 26, 2012 at 2:46 am

      So what is a \leash\ to you and what was so objectionable?
      —

      Then I have seen it live, though not yet from the wrong end, I never did the connection to the neck

      For me a “leash” is what you have on you when being transported by the Hungarian Prison system to and from Courts
      My Mother used the same thing on me when I was a child, then that was what you used on children at that time

      And it is a restriction of movement implemented with legalised violence and should not be used as a norm, that is why it is wrong
      There is no reason to assume a normal person, without any criminal or medical history/record would try to escape or act violent, so that is part of the State violence against its citizens

      In Hungary it is past of the old totalitarian Hungarian society, Communist/Fascist/whatever, then it assumes that the accused is guilty (if not exactly to the charges, something else) and hence can be treated in any degraded manner

  • olga

    @ Viking

    This guy is a jerk so please excuse my lack of sympathy but I read his first hand account in Hungarian :

    “Hajnali öt óra…. három rendőr áll a kapunk előtt! ”

    He sounds like a 16 year old recounting an adventure including a detailed description on his pajamas when he was arrested – he did admit he “forgot” one court date and that he did not accept a summons so this must have been an ongoing saga to get him to show up and by the sound of it, he enjoyed every minute of it – google the article and look at his picture, not exactly what I call the suffering victim, so surely you could find and champion a more deserving case in BP

    re: “And it is a restriction of movement implemented with legalised violence and should not be used as a norm, that is why it is wrong ”

    Are you complaining about the “leash” itself or the restriction? If the police used ordinary handcuffs in Sweden like they do in Toronto, then that would be acceptable and not go under Legalized violence?” It’s the small chain you are so outraged about?

    Sounds like the police over reacted with the handcuffs which btw were not used until he arrived in court but to make such a big deal about it is ridiculous; Perhaps next time he won’t forget the date and accept a summons and he will not be inconvenienced by the 5 a.m. wake up call nor the “inhumane treatment” Yawn

  • HungaroPatriot

    I hope the JOBBIK will clear this mess up in this country because it is unbearable.

    I work all day but I have no life, no house, no family. Can’t have, because I can’t support any of them!

    Better future for Hungary!

    • Curious George

      What if Jobbik makes it worse? Will you be okay with it? I’m just curious.

  • Viking

    olga says:
    September 28, 2012 at 4:57 am

    Are you complaining about the “leash” itself or the restriction? If the police used ordinary handcuffs in Sweden like they do in Toronto, then that would be acceptable and not go under Legalized violence?” It’s the small chain you are so outraged about?
    —

    Swedish Police would be out of step if they would use *any* restraint (handcuff/leash/whatyouwant) in this specific case

    If there is no history or obvious sign of violence, Swedish Police asks you politely to follow
    If you do not do that, they will take you by the arm, “helping” you

    If you do passive resistance still no handcuffs/etc are allowed, then they can carry you

    First when you actively fight back to that degree that it threatens the safety of the officers or 3rd person, or even yourself (totally drugged up, etc), your movement can be restrained and this act of legal violence is supposed to be put into the protocol of the arrest

    This is what I mean
    I start to understand Canada is using more US-rules and put a restraint (handcuffs/etc) as a precautionary and that you are fine with that, because that is what they do in Toronto…

    Regarding this specific ‘journalists’, I have no real hope for him anyway, then if you are working for HirTV, you have the same of ‘journalistic ideals’ as the Iranian PressTV, so being a jerk just helps

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