The whole thing lasted only a month. Started on 23 OCT and on 31 OCT the USSR said this: “The Soviet Government is prepared to enter into the appropriate negotiations with the government of the Hungarian People’s Republic and other members of the Warsaw Treaty on the question of the presence of Soviet troops on the territory of Hungary.” No false hope there, right?

On the very same day: “The Soviet leadership completely reversed itself and decided to put a final, violent end to the rebellion. From declassified documents, it is now clear that several factors influenced their decision, including: the belief that the rebellion directly threatened Communist rule in Hungary.”

The impulsive, naive and blinded by nationalistic fervor Nagy then aggravates the Soviets by deciding to sanction unprecedented political, economic and social reform, including the establishment of a multi-party state in Hungary, and insistent on the withdrawal of all Soviet forces from the country. By November 1, Nagy took the dramatic step of declaring Hungary’s rejection of the Warsaw Pact and appealing to the United Nations for help in establishing the country’s neutrality. (Unlike the challenge posed by Wladyslaw Gomulka and the Polish Communists just days before, which had targeted Kremlin rule but not the Communist system).

The main line of President Eisenhower’s policy was to promote the independence of the so called captive nations, but only over the longer term. There is little doubt that he was deeply upset by the crushing of the revolt, and he was not deaf to public pressure or the emotional lobbying of activists within his own administration. But he had also determined, and internal studies backed him up, that there was little the United States could do short of risking global war to help the rebels. (The OFFICIAL US policy, sort of reminds you Syria, no?)

The USA absolutely contributed to the Soviets decision to crackdown on Hungary because of the RFE (Radio Free Europe) broadcasts (which beguun in 1950) as part of their poorly thought out “psychological warfare” policy. That also included dropping anti-soviet leaflets at a soccer game in Chechoslavkia with US diplomats in attendance. RFE as a psy ops tool was in a “trial and error” period and Hungary was a live guineau pig by their own actions. RFE was 80% funded by the CIA and 20% privately. To be fair, only 4 out of the pertinent 308 broadcasts of that period were in violation of official policy and all happened before 4 NOV. You can thank Zoltan Thury and Julian Bosanyi for that. None of those 4 broadcasts had Hungarian desk chief Andor Gellert’s initials to approve those broadcasts.

So to be balanced, these sad convergence of events can be blamed on:
1) Nagy himself, playing and preying on “false hopes” from both sides of the fence. (what did he think was going to happen?)
2) Unapproved RFE broadcasts
3) Poor American psy ops policy

The real scandal is that the Hungarian government refuses to acknowledge that its deficit cutting efforts are unsustainable. It has simply hid a very large structural deficit that will eventually (this year) to be addressed. Postponing pain for political gain.

He has to find something to pillage …

“To me it seems it all comes down to which group of people are more organized and when a situation arises…use it towards they’re own benefit for maximum impact.”

So, are you saying it should be okay for well-organized international J*ewish organizations to bring up the discrimination of their kin in Hungary? Or file lawsuits against MAV in Chicago?

“No, discrimination is discrimination, regardless of who is the victim. The difference I see, is in who brings it up.”

I don’t know if I agree with that last sentence.

There is a higher level of discrimination against Muslims I would say…you don’t hear people getting all up in arms about that. To me it seems it all comes down to which group of people are more organized and when a situation arises…use it towards they’re own benefit for maximum impact.

There is a level of condoned discrimination that we all participate in…it’s not right, but doesn’t make it less true.

Lajos Szogi could have been my husband with our two children in different times and circumstances so that horrific crime hits much closer to home then the Roma vitims’ murders because “that could be the my family” syndrome

But then I thought of the village raids and murders planned against the Roma by the Kiss Brothers, Csontos and Peto where (quote): “Six people — including a young man and his 5-year-old son — were shot to death, five sustained life-threatening injuries and five others were seriously wounded in the attacks between July 2008 and August 2009.”

I don’t know the Criminal Code in Hungary and not even sure if if in Canada Mr. Szogi’s killers would be charged with manslaugher or Second Degree but for sure those serial killers would be charged with First degree murder because that was a planned execution.

If all the convicted killers in both cases faced “Texas Justice” and were given the death penalty, I wouldn’t care because I have no problems with the death penalty in certain cases yet both these crimes have to be put into perpective and judged without emotion and as far as I am concerned, the convicted in these crimes are sub-human regardless of their backgrounds.

I completely agree with what Makhno posted “It is probably true that Roma are more involved in street criminality that the rest of the Hungarians. But this is not because they are Roma, it’s not because of there culture or ther origine, it’s because they are poor, marginalized and having less and less chances to have a propoer school education.”

Then I read what Cogito wrote: “What I would like to ask of these ‘brave’, ‘objective’ and ‘enlightened’ western journalists and politicians is to come and live for a year in a Roma community, like Gyongyospata.

I am not a journalist but would like to think I am objective and enlightened but unfortunately I am also a coward. Not only would I not live in Gyongyospata but I would not be in that town for 10 minutes unless there was a compelling reason.

But the truth is that within my own city there are crime ridden areas and the profile of those committing crimes are not much different then the Roma’s in Hungary – poor, undeducated,marginalised with substance abouse probelms and screwed up families; the usual recipe for distaster. My heart goes out to the law abiding families and all children including the criminals’ but would I go there for a “visit” especially after it’s getting dark? – not bloody likely

Why? Because you and some leftwingers of liberals think so? Where is the above stated in the EU law? I think you should start to get used to the idea that some people in the EU have different opinion in this matter from yours.

But only for those who know my full name.

” it wasn’t a top secret institute”

But, it was an institute…nark, nark, nark

Hey, you opened the door to that one

You wrote: “know-nothings trumpeting the death of democracy in Hungary without any examples beyond judge retirement age and whether a Constitutional Court should have veto power over a nation’s budet. These are political decisions and not threats to democracy.”

It’s interesting that you say you just discovered this website, yet you are calling anyone who posts about the damage being done to Hungarian democracy a “know-nothing”. Maybe you should read some of the past articles on this website, since there is a large trove of evidence here and elsewhere that the current government has already done a lot of damage to democracy.

The retirement age of judges and the veto power of the Constitutional Court are just two examples given here, but they are good ones. Fidesz doesn’t like the fact that there are judges who haven’t been selected by them, since those judges might be independent, so they lowered the age in order to be able to replace those judges with people who are certain to rule for Fidesz. An independent judiciary is crucial in a true democracy, since concentration of power in the hands of one party can lead to the abuse of power (as it did here in Hungary under Communism). There was no other legitimate reason to lower the (mandatory) retirement age of judges, who usually have no problem doing their job until they reach the former retirement age. Also, the old system of choosing judges has been changed to give the power to select new judges to one person, who, not coincidentally, is a close friend and ally of Orbán, the prime minister. This is unheard of in a modern democratic country, and is just one example of similar concentrations of power in Orbán’s hands.

I suggest that before you start dismissing legitimate arguments about the destruction of democracy, you do some research. One place to start is the new Media Council, which has the potential to spell the end of press freedom in Hungary, and has already led to widespread self-censorship and a great reduction in unbiased media reporting. You might also start to see that most of the “politically-motivated vitriol” you accuse many Hungarians of accepting is emitted by the current government and its supporters.

You probably will assume that I am some left-wing socialist sympathizer, based on this post. Nothing is further from the truth. I am right of center, politically, and have been consistently anti-communist since I was a child. My political leanings might be described in some circles as libertarian, since I value freedom and true democracy above all else. I believe the state has an important role to play, but Fidesz has been nationalizing companies and people’s savings without asking the people directly, just like the communists did when they came to power. Fidesz has also created a constitution that resembles the one installed by the communists more than the one that resulted from the drastic changes to it in 1989. It is clearly meant to change Hungary from a republic to something more closely resembling a managed democracy, which is not really a democracy at all. This is what I (and probably many others who post here) mean when I say that democracy is on its way out in Hungary. I see Fidesz as a non-ideological version of the communist party; their natural soul mate is United Russia, Putin’s political vehicle, and Orbán wants to have a similar hold on power. Popular will may have put both parties into power, but that doesn’t mean that true democracy is present in either country. True democracy is not just rule by the majority, but protection of those who disagree with the majority and a reasonable ability of the opposition to gain power through free and fair elections. Those conditions do not exist in Russia right now, and are in danger of ceasing to exist in Hungary, too.

“Orban has all the firepower in the world, but he just doesn’t show it because otherwise Europe will try to take it away as well”

Oh, I agree!!! He’s gotta be sneaky…and when ‘they’ least expect it…KAPOOOWWWW!!!…’they’ can expect it.

“If only the world would listen to your wise words”

I feel the same way after reading your posts. You speak with such passion and devotion, that it simply warms the cockles of my heart.

Your devoted fan,

JA

“kezdenek körülöttünk az állatok, használjuk nyugodtan fegyverünket.”

That’s the attitude they have down in the States.

“Would it really be considered an ‘invasion’ (of Austria) if they (the US)had just left it after occupying said country for the last 10 years?”

Yes, since Austria had just declared its neutrality. I’m surprised you’re having so much difficulty with this concept. Maybe you should look up the word neutrality in the dictionary.

The US just left Iraq; if they went in without permission again, that would be another invasion. Simple enough that even you could understand it!

Are you sure you are *not* Orban himself, visiting these boards under a pseudonym? The insight and wisdom you display often seems worthy of the great man himself.

By the way, I can wholeheartedly recommend Leto for the post of International Minister for Information and Truth. In fact, he worked at a top-secret EU research institute, where all the necessary facts were input into his brain, with which to elegantly destroy the enemy.

Yours,

B.

“Did the US have to go through Saudi Arabia or Turkey, to get to Iraq?”

It went through Kuwait.

You wrote: “What do you mean by ‘determined by the EU’?”

The European Parliament resolution is only part of what I meant; the other part is the European Commission (did you forget that the EU is more than the European Parliament and Council of Europe?). The EC started an accelerated infringement procedure because of elements of the new constitution, and the government recently sent a response to it.

You wrote: “the member of the Venice Commission, he said that there is nothing in the Hungarian constitution which would not exist in other laws of other countries.”

I don’t know whether you took this quote out of context, but I know that the Venice Commission had many problems with the Hungarian Constitution; here’s the first link I could find, but I remember reading quite a few more than this:

http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2011/06/21/venice-commission-vexed-by-hungarys-new-constitution/

You wrote: “one’s feelings and subjective judgement of the history of a country cannot be really taken as a legal argument”

I never intended to make a legal argument; the fact is that Hungary needs a republic to prosper and be free, at least for now, so that’s what should be put back in place. You are trying to change the subject, I think, and that’s very disingenuous of you.

“Something still must be done. It’s useful to buy a firearm before you leave. If you hit a child then do stop. And if the beasts start gathering around you then do use the weapon.”

Well, one thing is sure. Mr. Szögi wouldn’t have been lynched in front of his young daughters in the way described below if he had taken this advice.

Having said this, your point about the effectiveness of such rants is still valid. The only problem with it is that we are living in a society where it is ‘cool’ and ‘politically opportune’ to say or insinuate about someone that he/she is ‘racist’, ‘anti-Roma’, ‘skinhead-sympathiser’, and finally to stick in an ‘igazi magyar’ characterization (whatever that means) as an intended additional insult. The latter I find particularly annoying, because yes, I am a ‘magyar’ and as such I certainly consider myself ‘igazi’, simply because I cannot see any other form: you are either Hungarian or not. In other words, these kinds of politically correct, hence widely accepted, insults are hurled at people freely and without consequences, with de intended ‘benefits’, while when I make a personal (admittedly, not very nice) characterizations about someone doing this, I am singled out and reminded about the problems with such language.

I must say, I do not like to use this kind of words very much either. But I have three choices: I either start defending myself that I am not ‘x’, ‘y’, ‘z’, which is a completely hopeless exercise, I do not respond to it and let the politically correct insinuations reap their benefits, or come back with equally nasty characterizations of a different kind. Also, in general, I use this kind of (admittedly unfortunate) language only in reaction to a comment.

Having said this,I will take your comment into consideration.

@Curious – I have been involved with plenty of NGO’s; I can tell you no single organization can tackle all issues. I am also sure a volunteer ethnic organization has significant resource constraints. They too have to pick their battles. For example, there seem to be plenty of organizations fighting the battle to illuminate issues with Roma, but few organizations dare to tackle a thornier issue for the EU in Central Europe and the root cause of anti-Hungarian programs – TRIANON.

To me, this lingering menace will continue to linger and the EU and related NGO’s will tackle the easy and obvious issues first. To ask you your own question: what aren’t the NGO’s or EU dealing with even the most glaring issues facing Hungarian communities? Slovakia is an easy example:

Slovakia actually reaffirmed the Benes Decress, no outcry. Slovakia passes a ridiculous \Language Law,\ no outcry. Slovakia changes its citizenship rules to target Hungarians specifically, no outcry. These are NOT PARTISAN issues, but for political reasons are made so, further polarizing a nation trying to emerge from the trauma of 50 years of communist tyranny. The NGO’s and EU remain silent and Hungarians seem to care less. Why?

Becuase Western Europe was responsible for Hungary’s fate, I am sure there is an element of discomfort as they would be forced to face the facts. But there’s more to it. Apartheid in South Africa is perhaps a good analogy. It was easy for the average, uneducated person to see the discrimination in there as it was, quite literally, black and white. Uganda, Darfour, Serbia, or other areas where there is ethnic cleansing and other atrocities against similarly colored people takes some deeper understanding of history – to understand the \grey\ area where divisions are deeper and more complex. As spineless Europe watched, it took the Americans to take action against Serbian ethnic cleansing savings tens of thousands of lives. It took the US to do the same in Libya.

The Hungarians of the Carpathian Basin fall into this complicated category and they deserve your attention while others neglect them. Wouldn’t you agree?

While NGO or EU neglect can be explained by these attitudes, I cannot fathom how a Hungarian can accept what is happening across their own border to their own people. Of course, the Communists in their endeavour to establish their \Socialist Brotherhood of Nations\ did all they could to brainwash the masses, eliminate any semblance of healthy Hungarian patriotism, and blur the lines between patriotism and nationalism – more so in Hungary than elsewhere. They were quite successful.

I will never forget my visit to Hungary where I learned that Hungarians who fly the Hungarian flag in front of their own homes are considered nationalists! I also met a college kid who had no idea that the land across from a bombed out bridge in Esztergom was once Hungary – nor knew the reasons for not rebuilding it. This was 1990. I knew it would take many generations for Hungary to recover. I am now unsure it ever will.

“But regardless, you support humorous remarks from a leading public figure, one with very close ties to the Prime Minister”

I must be missing something…what does it matter who Bayer is friends with? Are you suggesting that Orban might share his views?
———–

- Don’t sweat at it: we are not yet in the “eurozone” – will not be, in the foreseeable future anyway.

Otherwise, at the very moment we agonizing over the sad fact, that some money may never come from the EU, which otherwise couldn’t come from anywhere else.

So, where do you really want to get out from, and why, if I may ask?

I wish that was actually true… Down with the republic, long live the Kingdom of Hungary!

So, he is the real one! A real Reader, that is!

Mr.Orban can read, – fluently even, – while Mr.Gyurcsány just talks, and talks…

Thank God to have with us the greatest reader of Hungary!

- Do you feel the s(h)ame, too?

Technically the same, while the goal entirely different.
But how would you be able to tell..?

“Valamit mégis tenni kell. Jó, ha indulás előtt beszerzünk egy lőfegyvert. Ha elütünk egy gyereket, álljunk meg. S ha gyülekezni kezdenek körülöttünk az állatok, használjuk nyugodtan fegyverünket.”

Anyway… unless you’re one of the Big Three (Germany, UK and France) then your EU Overlords can basically tell you to do anything that they damn well want them to do. And you will do it because they hold the purse strings. Mr Orban knows this, he just hasn’t got round to telling the sheep yet.

Sure, they’re making an example out of Hungary, sure there are probably more worthy examples to be made of (economically anyway) but when you publicly decide to declare war against the EU (the banks, the IMF, the international media conspiracy, the *Zionist money speculators*, the Spiders residing under Mr Orban’s bed)then you have to make sure you have the firepower to blast your enemy into kingdom.
Orban ain’t got that firepower. Sorry.

“If our car is surrounded by Gypsies then we should accelerate more. If someone is hit, bad luck. Drive to the nearest police station at full speed, while calling for ambulance in the car, and report yourself to the police. (Unfortunately I know this cannot happen. If someone hits somebody with his car, especially if it is a
child, he has to stop. So we are going to stop from now on, too.)

But regardless, you support humorous remarks from a leading public figure, one with very close ties to the Prime Minister, about killing innocent children who have *nothing* to do with this crime, except that they are from the same ‘race’.

Lajos Szögi, aged 44, a well-respected grammar school teacher, was driving to Vámosújfalu via Olaszliszka with his two daughters (aged 14 and 5).
He kept the traffic rules and a 11 year old girl ran in front of his car in the village. (The car didn’t hit her)

Lajos Szögi stopped so that he would check if the child was not hurt. Then Mr. Szögi tried to drive away but he couldn’t because the father of the girl and four other male relatives got there and they pulled him out of the car and they started beating and kicking him. The mother of the girl incited them from a distance: „Öljétek meg a magyart, mert meghalt a gyerek!” (“Kill the Hungarian, the child has died!)” even the the unhurt child ran to her mother before and she said “Ne sírjál anya! Élek!” (Don’t cry, mom. I’m alive)
The mob delivered more than a hundred kickings and blows. The father of the girl fetched an axe so that he would behead the badly hurt man lying on the ground. Mr. Lajos Szögi begged the mob that his daughters should be harmed and the Gypsies cried that if the the daughters of Mr. Szögi wouldn’t shut up then they’d rape them. The daughters managed to escape from the scene and asked for help. By the time the paramedics arrived, Mr. Szögi died because of his head and neck wounds.

I see.

That says a lot about you.